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The legal history of bans on firearms and Bowie knives before 1900
Bowie knives are back in constitutional law news these days, after a very long absence. The U.S. Supreme Court's Bruen decision instructs lower courts to look to U.S. legal history to see what sorts of restrictions on Second Amendment rights are consistent with the mainstream American legal tradition. According to the Court, the legal history of the Founding Era is the most important, the late nineteenth century much less so, and the twentieth century too late to create a tradition that contradicts the text of the Second Amendment.
Post-Bruen, some gun control advocates have been looking to Bowie knife laws as analogical justifications for bans on common modern rifles and magazines. In a separate post, Bowie knife statutes 1837-1899, I provide a state-by-state survey of all state Bowie knife laws through 1899. This post examines constitutional case law on Bowie knives, the history of such knives, and the history of pre-1900 bans on types of firearms.
As described below, valid pre-1900 precedents on firearms prohibitions are non-existent. Bruen suggests that "dramatic technological changes may require a more nuanced approach" in drawing historical analogies to justify modern arms controls. Accordingly, there has been renewed interest in Bowie knives, which are said to be a new technology that appeared in the early 19th century. In the Fourth Circuit, Maryland Attorney General Frosh is defending a Maryland ban on many common rifles. In his recently-filed supplemental brief in Bianchi v. Frosh, Bowie knife laws are an important part of his argument, including with a citation to my article Knives and the Second Amendment, 47 U. Michigan J. of Law Reform 175 (2013) (with Clayton Cramer and Joseph Olson).
At a previous stage in the case, I coauthored an amicus brief in support of the plaintiffs' cert. petition, Bianchi v. Frosh. No. 21-902. The brief was on behalf of Professors of Second Amendment Law (including VC's Randy Barnett), Cato Institute, John Locke Foundation, Center to Keep and Bear Arms (Mountain States Legal Foundation), and Independence Institute. The week after Bruen, the Supreme Court granted cert., vacated the decision below (the Fourth Circuit upholding the ban), and remanded for consideration in light of Bruen.
This post proceeds as follows:
- Part I summarizes Bruen's rules for reasoning from historical analogies.
- Part II summarizes the pre-1900 American history of firearms bans. Four states enacted some sort of prohibitory law on particular types of firearms.
- Part III explains Bowie knives, and the infamous 1837 murder on the floor of the Arkansas legislature that may have spurred legislative action in several states.
- Part IV examines the three major state supreme court cases involving Bowie knives:
- In Georgia, Nunn v. State (1844) held that a statute banning Bowie knives and handguns violated the Second Amendment.
- In Tennessee, Aymette v. State (1840) upheld a ban on concealed carry of Bowie knives as not violating the state constitution. The court stated that the right to keep arms was individual, but the right to bear arms was only for military service, such as the militia. Mistakenly, the court said that a Bowie knife would be of no use to a militia. To the contrary, many militias used Bowie knives, before and after 1840.
- Cockrum v. State (1859) applied the Texas Constitution and the Second Amendment and stated, "The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is secured, and must be admitted." However, enhanced sentencing for use of a Bowie knife in murder was constitutional.
The other post, Bowie knife statutes 1837-1899, excerpts and analyzes state 19th-century Bowie knife statutes. With very rare exceptions, states that chose to regulate Bowie knives treated them the same as other, older, types of fighting knives, namely dirks and/or daggers. As described in this post, "Bowie knives" were briefly considered to be a new type of arm, but they were not. Bowie knife laws turned into general laws about large knives, and so in statutes, "Bowie knife" was joined by other well-known fighting knives.
The knife category of Bowie knives plus dirks and/or daggers was frequently regulated at the same level as handguns. That is, prohibitions were rarities. The mainstream approach for handguns and knives was non-prohibitory for peaceable adults, such as laws forbidding concealed carry (while allowing open carry), prohibiting sales to minors, or specially punishing misuse.
Whatever 19th century handgun laws teach about permissible limits on the right to arms, the Bowie knife laws go no further. Because Bowie knives are so often in pari materia with 19th-century handgun regulations that they add little if anything to the very thin base of historical precedents for prohibitions on common arms.
The legal history of Bowie knives reinforces the U.S. Supreme Court's history-based holdings about permissible handgun regulation. Bowie knives were not some extraordinary category for which regulation was more severe than was typical for handgun control.
I. Rules from Bruen
Further analysis of the material in this Part is in my article Restoring the right to bear arms: New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen, 2021-22 Cato Supreme Court Review (Trevor Burrus ed., 2022).
Bruen affirmed that text, history, and tradition is the correct methodology in Second Amendment cases, not interest balancing:
… Heller and McDonald do not support applying means-end scrutiny in the Second Amendment context. Instead, the government must affirmatively prove that its firearms regulation is part of the historical tradition that delimits the outer bounds of the right to keep and bear arms.
142 S. Ct. 2111, 2126-27 (2022). Courts may not engage in interest balancing, nor may they defer to legislative interest balancing:
The Second Amendment "is the very product of an interest balancing by the people" and it "surely elevates above all other interests the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms" for self-defense. It is this balance—struck by the traditions of the American people—that demands our unqualified deference.
Id. at 2131 (quoting Heller).
Thus, "[w]hen the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. The government must then justify its regulation by demonstrating that it is consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." Id. at 2129-30.
Judges do not bear the burden of becoming legal history researchers. As with anything else that the government must prove, the government must present persuasive legal history to the court. "Courts are thus entitled to decide a case based on the historical record compiled by the parties." Id. at 2130 n.5.
Sometimes, the government and its allies will win because there are many historic laws that are twins of modern ones—such as prohibiting reckless discharge of a firearm in populated areas. Additionally, the government can prove its case by "analogical reasoning." This means "a well-established and representative historical analogue, not a historical twin. So even if a modern-day regulation is not a dead ringer for historical precursors, it still may be analogous enough to pass constitutional muster." Id. at 2133.
"[A]nalogical reasoning under the Second Amendment is neither a regulatory straightjacket nor a regulatory blank check." Id. "[C]ourts should not 'uphold every modern law that remotely resembles a historical analogue,' because doing so 'risk[s] endorsing outliers that our ancestors would never have accepted.'" Id. (quoting Drummond v. Robinson, 9 F.4th 217, 226 (3d Cir. 2021)).
If a historical arms control law is both "established" and "representative," the next step is to determine whether the modern gun control and the alleged historical analogue are "relevantly similar." Bruen does not purport to "exhaustively" define how judges may consider similarity. Instead, Bruen suggests that Heller and McDonald point to "at least two metrics: how and why the regulations burden a law-abiding citizen's right to armed self-defense."
"How" means: "whether modern and historical regulations impose a comparable burden on the right of armed self-defense."
"Why" means: "whether that burden is comparably justified." The second metric prevents historic, burdensome laws that were enacted for one purpose from being used as a pretext to impose burdens for other purposes. Id. at 2132-33.
How to deal with technological or societal changes? Per Justice Thomas:
While the historical analogies here and in Heller are relatively simple to draw, other cases implicating unprecedented societal concerns or dramatic technological changes may require a more nuanced approach. The regulatory challenges posed by firearms today are not always the same as those that preoccupied the Founders in 1791 or the Reconstruction generation in 1868. Fortunately, the Founders created a Constitution—and a Second Amendment—"intended to endure for ages to come, and consequently, to be adapted to the various crises of human affairs." Although its meaning is fixed according to the understandings of those who ratified it, the Constitution can, and must, apply to circumstances beyond those the Founders specifically anticipated.
Id. at 2132 (quoting McCulloch v. Maryland). Some social problems have been around for a long time. Whether previous generations addressed a problem with restrictions on Second Amendment rights is an important question:
[W]hen a challenged regulation addresses a general societal problem that has persisted since the 18th century, the lack of a distinctly similar historical regulation addressing that problem is relevant evidence that the challenged regulation is inconsistent with the Second Amendment. Likewise, if earlier generations addressed the societal problem, but did so through materially different means, that also could be evidence that a modern regulation is unconstitutional. And if some jurisdictions actually attempted to enact analogous regulations during this timeframe, but those proposals were rejected on constitutional grounds, that rejection surely would provide some probative evidence of unconstitutionality.
Id. at 2131.
Legal tradition is based on many places over many years. A few harsh laws in a few places do not negate the mainstream. For example, in Bruen the following were, cumulatively, insufficient to negate the general American tradition of a right to carry arms:
- A statute in the short-lived colony of East Jersey (half of present New Jersey) against frontiersmen ("planters") carrying handguns. The statute was in effect for "[a]t most eight years."
- An 1871 Texas ban against carrying handguns under most circumstances.
- In the latter nineteenth century, five western territories with statutes against handgun carrying in cities, or more broadly.
- Four colonial or Early Republic statutes that supposedly prohibited arms carrying. They actually did not, but the Court assumed arguendo that the description of the statutes in the amicus briefs of the anti-gun lobbies was accurate.
In general, "late-19th-century evidence cannot provide much insight into the meaning of the Second Amendment when it contradicts earlier evidence." Id. at 2154.
Broad state restrictions on peaceable carry did become more common in the 20th century, most famously with the 1911 New York "Sullivan Act" at issue in Bruen. But, "[a]s with . . . late-19th-century evidence, the 20th-century evidence presented by respondents and their amici does not provide insight into the meaning of the Second Amendment when it contradicts earlier evidence." Id. at 2154 n.28.
According to Bruen, states may require licenses for bearing arms in public. Issuance must be based on narrow and objective criteria. The licensing systems may not have "lengthy wait times . . . or exorbitant fees." Id. at 2138 n.9.
II. Firearms bans in the U.S. before 1900
Attorneys General who must defend recent state bans on various types of common firearms have a challenging task. There were very few bans of particular types of firearms during the nineteenth century, and all of them are plainly unconstitutional under modern doctrine.
A. Georgia ban on handguns, Bowie knives, and other arms
The only firearms ban statute before the Civil War was enacted by Georgia. It outlawed possession, sale, open carry, and concealed carry of the vast majority of handguns. The statute also banned Bowie knives and certain other arms. In Nunn v. State, the Georgia Supreme Court held the statute entirely unconstitutional because of the Second Amendment, except as to concealed carry. Nunn is the historic case that is most extolled by the U.S. Supreme Court's Heller opinion. The case is discussed further in Part IV.
B. Tennessee ban on many handguns
After the end of Reconstruction, the white supremacist legislature of Tennessee in 1879 banned the sale "of belt or pocket pistols, or revolvers, or any other kind of pistol, except army or navy pistols"—that is, large handguns of the sort carried by military officers, artillerymen, etc. These big and well-made guns were already possessed in quantity by former Confederate soldiers. The army & navy handguns were more expensive than smaller pistols. The ban was upheld because it would help reduce the concealed carrying of handguns. State v. Burgoyne, 75 Tenn. (7 Lea) 173 (1881).
C. Arkansas ban on many handguns, and Bowie knives
Arkansas followed suit with a similar law in 1881. That law also forbade the sale of Bowie knives, dirks (another type of knife), sword-canes (a sword concealed in a walking stick), or metal knuckles. In a prosecution for the sale of a pocket pistol, the Arkansas Supreme Court rejected a constitutional defense. The statute was "leveled at the pernicious habit of wearing such dangerous or deadly weapons as are easily concealed about the person. It does not abridge the constitutional right of citizens to keep and bear arms for the common defense; for it in no wise restrains the use or sale of such arms as are useful in warfare." Dabbs v. State, 39 Ark. 353, 357 (1885).
The right to arms provision of the Tennessee Constitution, as adopted in 1870 and still in effect, states, "the citizens of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime." The 1868 Arkansas Constitution right to arms, also still in effect, states, "The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defence."
In both states, the "common defense" language was interpreted by the courts as protecting an individual right of everyone, but only for militia-type arms. Such arms included the general types of handguns used in the U.S. military. When Congress was drafting the future Second Amendment, there was a proposal in the Senate to add similar "common defence" language. The Senate rejected the proposal. Senate Journal, 1st Cong., 1st Sess. 77 (Sept. 9, 1789).
Whatever the merits of the state courts' interpretations of the state constitutions, the Tennessee and Arkansas statutes are unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. The U.S. Supreme Court in Heller repudiated the notion that the Second Amendment is only for military-type arms. Dick Heller's 9-shot .22 caliber revolver was certainly not a military-type handgun.
D. Florida licensing law for repeating rifles and handguns
The closest historic analogue to present bans on semiautomatic rifles is an 1893 Florida statute that required owners of Winchesters and other repeating rifles to apply for a license from the board of county commissioners. In 1901 the law was extended to also include handguns. As amended, "Whoever shall carry around with, or have in his manual possession, in any county in this State, any pistol, Winchester rifle, or other repeating rifle, without having a license from the county commissioners of the respective counties of this State," should be fined up to $100 or imprisoned up to 30 days.
The county commissioners could issue a two-year license only if the applicant posted a bond of $100. The commissioners were required to record "the maker of the firearm so licensed to be carried, and the caliber and number of the same." Revised General Laws of Florida, § 7202-03 (1927); 1893 Fla. Laws ch. 4147; 1901 Fla. Laws ch. 4928.
The bond of $100 was exorbitant. It was equivalent to over $3,400 today. (Fed. Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, Consumer Price Index 1800-. 2022=884.6. 1893=27. 1901= 25. Avg. = 26.)
A 1909 case involved Giocomo Russo's petition for a writ of mandamus against county commissioners who had refused his application for a handgun carry license. Based on his name, Russo may have been an Italian immigrant. At the time, Italians were sometimes considered to be in a separate racial category. When Russo applied, the county commissioners said that they only issued licenses to applicants whom they knew personally, and they did not think the applicant needed to carry a handgun. Russo argued that the licensing statute was unconstitutional.
The Florida Supreme Court denied Russo's petition for a writ of mandamus. According to the Court, there were two possibilities: 1. If the statute is constitutional, then mandamus to the county commissioners would be incorrect, because they acted within their legal discretion. 2. If the statute is unconstitutional, then mandamus would be improper, because a writ of mandamus cannot order an official to carry out an unconstitutional statute. Either way, Russo was not entitled to a writ of mandamus. Pursuant to the doctrine of constitutional avoidance, the Court declined to opine on the statute's constitutionality. State v. Parker, 57 Fla. 170, 49 So. 124 (1909).
Decades later, a case arose as to whether a handgun in an automobile glove-box fit within the statutory language, "on his person or in his manual possession." By 5-2, the Florida Supreme Court held that it did not; no license was necessary to carry a handgun or repeating rifle in an automobile. Watson v. Stone, 148 Fla. 516, 4 So. 2d 700 (1941). A four Justice majority granted the defendant's petition for habeas corpus because of the rule of lenity: in case of ambiguity criminal statutes should be construed narrowly.
Justice Rivers H. Buford concurred in with the 4-Justice majority opinion. His opinion went straight to the core problem with the statute.
Born in 1878, Buford had worked from ages 10 to 21 in Florida logging and lumber camps. In 1899, at the suggestion of a federal judge who owned a logging camp, Buford began the study of law. He was admitted to the Florida bar the next year. In 1901, he was elected to the Florida House of Representatives. Later, he was appointed county prosecuting attorney, elected state's attorney for the 9th district, and elected state attorney general. He was appointed to the Florida Supreme Court in 1925. 3 History of Florida: Past and Present 156 (1923); Florida Supreme Court, Justice Rivers Henderson Buford. As of 1923, "His principal diversion is hunting." History of Florida at 156.
The Florida Constitution of 1885 had provided: "The right of the people to bear arms in defence of themselves and the lawful authority of the State, shall not be infringed, but the Legislature may prescribe the manner in which they may be borne."
Concurring, Justice Buford wrote that the statute should be held to violate the Florida Constitution and the Second Amendment:
I concur in the judgment discharging the relator because I think that Section 5100, R.G.S., § 7202, C.G.L., is unconstitutional because it offends against the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States and Section 20 of the Declaration of Rights of the Constitution of Florida.
Proceedings in habeas corpus will lie for the discharge of one who is held in custody under a charge based on an unconstitutional statute. [citations omitted]
The statute, supra, does not attempt to prescribe the manner in which arms may be borne but definitely infringes on the right of the citizen to bear arms as guaranteed to him under Section 20 of the Declaration of Rights of the Florida Constitution.
He explained the history of the exorbitant licensing laws of 1893 and 1901:
I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied. We have no statistics available, but it is a safe guess to assume that more than 80% of the white men living in the rural sections of Florida have violated this statute. It is also a safe guess to say that not more than 5% of the men in Florida who own pistols and repeating rifles have ever applied to the Board of County Commissioners for a permit to have the same in their possession and there had never been, within my knowledge, any effort to enforce the provisions of this statute as to white people, because it has been generally conceded to be in contravention of the Constitution and non-enforceable if contested.
Watson, 4 So.2d at 703.
Justice Buford had described some of the changed societal conditions underlying the 1893 and 1901 enactments. There may have been additional factors involved. Repeating rifles had been around for decades and had been widely available and affordable for many consumers since the 1860s. By the 1880s, manufacturing improvements had made such rifles affordable to many black people. They were using such rifles to drive off lynch mobs, such as in famous 1892 incidents in Paducah, Kentucky, and Jacksonville Florida. In Jacksonville,
[W]hen a white man, having been killed by a negro, and threats of lynching the prisoner from the Duval County Jail being made, a large concourse, or mob of negroes, assembled around the jail and defied and denied the sheriff of the county ingress to the building. This mob, refusing to disburse upon the reading of the riot act by the sheriff, he called for assistance from the militia to aid him in enforcing the laws.
Report of the Adjutant-General for the Biennial Period Ending December 31, 1892, at 18, in [Florida] Journal of the Senate (1893); Nicholas J. Johnson, Negroes and Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms 110-12 (2014).
In sum, the 19th century history of firearms bans is not helpful for modern litigants seeking to justify prohibitions on semiautomatic rifles. The only pre-1900 statutory precedent for such a law is Florida in 1893, and it is a dubious precedent. Before that, there were three prior sales prohibitions that covered many or most handguns. One of these was held to violate the Second Amendment, and the other two are plainly unconstitutional under Heller.
Accordingly, renewed attention attention is being given to precedents involving Bowie knives, which we will examine next.
III. Bowie knives and Arkansas toothpicks
A. What is a Bowie knife?
Cites for some of the material in Part III.A & B are available in my Michigan Knives and the Second Amendment article. This part is supplemented by information from emails with Mark Zalesky, publisher of Knife Magazine.
Starting in 1837, several southern states enacted laws about Bowie knives. Some of these statutes also applied to the "Arkansas toothpick." Later, many other states adopted Bowie knife laws.
The term "Bowie knife" originated after frontiersman Col. Jim Bowie used one at a famous "Sandbar Fight" on the lower Mississippi River near Natchez, Mississippi,on September 19, 1827.
The knife had been made by Rezin Bowie, Jim's brother. According to Rezin, the knife was intended for bear hunting. He stated, "The length of the knife was nine and a quarter inches, its width one and a half inches, single-edged, and blade not curved." Nothing about the knife was novel.
The initial and subsequent media coverage of the Sandbar Fight was often highly inaccurate. As "Bowie knife" entered the American vocabulary and then the British, manufacturers began labeling all sorts of large knives as "Bowie knives." Some of these were straight (like Rezin's) and other had curved blades. Rezin's knife was single-edged, but some "Bowie knives" were double-edged. Rezin's knife did not have a clip point, but some so-called "Bowie knives" did. Likewise, some had crossguards (to protect the user's hand), and others did not. "Bowie knife" more a sloppy marketing term than a description of a particular type of knife—just as some people today say "Coke" to mean many kinds of carbonated beverages. (The difference is that true "Coke" products, manufactured by the Coca-Cola Company, do exist; there never was a true Bowie knife.) Manufacturers slapped the "Bowie knife" label on a wide variety of large knives that were highly suitable for hunting and self-defense. In words of knife historian Norm Flayderman, "there is no one specific knife that can be exactingly described as a Bowie knife." Norm Flayderman, The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend 490 (2004).
The knife photo in this post is an 1850s knife manufactured in England and marketed as a "Bowie knife." It's a good match for what 20th century movies and television called as a "Bowie knife." There are many modern imitations, none of which are like the knife at the Sandbar Fight; nor are they the type that Rezin and Jim Bowie later ordered from custom cutlers. Visit today's websites of knife sellers, search for "Bowie knife," and you will find a quite a disparate variety.
From the beginning, laws about "Bowie knives" have been plagued by vagueness. For example, a Tennessee statute against concealed carry applied to "any Bowie knife or knives, or Arkansas tooth picks, or any knife or weapon that shall in form, shape or size resemble a Bowie knife or any Arkansas tooth pick . . . ." 22 Tenn. Gen. Assemb. Acts 200, ch. 137.
When Stephen Hayes was prosecuted for concealed carry, the witnesses disagreed about whether his knife was a Bowie knife. Some said that it was too small and slim to be a Bowie knife, and would properly be called a "Mexican pirate-knife." The jury found Haynes innocent of wearing a Bowie knife but guilty on a second charge "of wearing a knife in shape or size resembling a bowie-knife." Note the disjunctive "form, shape or size." On appeal, the Tennessee Supreme Court agreed that the legislature could not declare "war against the name of the knife" alone. A strict application of the letter of the law could result in injustices: "for a small pocket-knife, which is innocuous, may be made to resemble in form and shape a bowie-knife or Arkansas tooth-pick" and would thus be illegal. The Tennessee Supreme Court held that the statute must be construed "within the spirit and meaning of the law" and relied on the judge and jury to make this decision as a matter of fact. Haynes v. State, 24 Tenn. (5 Hum.) 120 (1844).
B. What is an Arkansas toothpick?
As for "Arkansas Toothpick," Flayderman say that it was mainly another marketing term for "Bowie knife." Flayderman at 265-74. However, he notes that some Mississippi tax receipts, and some other writings, expressly distinguish an "Arkansas Toothpick" from a "Bowie knife."
Mark Zalesky, publisher of Knife Magazine, explained in Nov. 10 and 19 emails to me: "The idea of the 'Arkansas toothpick' being a large dagger seems to stem from Raymond Thorp's 1948 book Bowie Knife (Thorp actually did some good research, but much of the book is complete nonsense); The Iron Mistress novel and movie in 1951/52; and the subsequent interest in Bowie, Crockett, the Alamo etc. during the 1950s and early 1960s. You are dealing with a definition that has changed over the years." But as of 1840, "Most evidence supports the idea that 'Arkansas toothpick' was originally a 'frontier brag' of sorts, a casual nickname for any variety of bowie knife but particularly types that were popular in Arkansas."

Here is a drawing of what late 20th century Americans, based on contemporary movies and television, thought to be an Arkansas toothpick. It is sharpened on both edges (unlike the sandbar fight knife), with a triangular blade up to eighteen inches long.
C. The crime in the Arkansas legislature
The sandbar fight had taken place in 1827. Jim Bowie died on March 6, 1836, as one of the defenders of the Alamo. In 1840, he would become the namesake of Bowie County, the northeasternmost county in Texas. According to Zalesky, "we first see the term 'Bowie knife' beginning to come into use in 1835 and by mid-1836 it was everywhere. It is clear that such knives existed before the term for them became popular."
Perhaps the first legislation about Bowie knives, from Mississippi and Alabama in mid-1837, was about a continuing problem of criminal misuse. Legislative attention to the topic was surely intensified by an infamous crime in late 1837, which may have helped lead to the enactment of several laws in succeeding weeks. My frequent coauthor, historian Clayton Cramer, explains:
Two members of the Arkansas House of Representatives turned from insults to Bowie knives during debate as to which state official should authorize payment of bounties on wolves. Speaker of the House John Wilson was president of the Real Estate Bank. Representative J. J. Anthony sarcastically suggested that instead of having judges sign the wolf bounty warrants, some really important official should do so, such as the president of the Real Estate Bank.
Speaker Wilson took offense and immediately confronted Anthony, at which point both men drew concealed Bowie knives. Anthony struck the first blows, and nearly severed Wilson's arm. Anthony then threw down his knife (or threw it at Wilson), then threw a chair at Wilson. In response, Wilson buried his Bowie knife to the hilt in Anthony's chest (or abdomen, depending on the account), killing him. "Anthony fell, exclaiming, 'I'm a dead man,' and immediately expired."Judge William F. Pope, Early Days in Arkansas 225 (Dunbar H. Pope ed., 1895); "The Murder in Arkansas," 54 Niles' National Register 258 (June 23, 1838). "The Speaker himself fell to the floor, weak from loss of blood. But on hands and knees he crawled to his dead opponent, withdrew his Bowie, wiped it clean on Anthony's coat, replaced it in its sheath, and fainted." Raymond W. Thorp, Bowie Knife 4 (1991). While Wilson was expelled from the House, he was acquitted at trial, causing "the most intense indignation through the entire State." Pope, at 225-26; Thorp at 1-5; "General Assembly," Arkansas State Gazette, Dec. 12, 1837, at 2 (expulsion two days later); "The trial of John Wilson . . . ," (Milledgeville, Ga.) Southern Recorder, March 6, 1838; "The Murder in Arkansas," Niles' National Register, supra..
IV. Cases on Bowie knives
In the nineteenth century, there were three major state supreme court constitutional cases on Bowie knives. The results of all three are consistent:
- Georgia: Prohibiting the sale of Bowie knives violates the Second Amendment. Prohibiting concealed carry does not.
- Tennessee: Prohibiting concealed carry of Bowie knives does not violate the state constitution.
- Texas: The state constitution and the Second Amendment guarantee the right to own and carry Bowie knives, but extra punishment for a crime committed with a Bowie knife is constitutional.
A. Nunn v. State
Between 1800 and the beginning of the Civil War in 1861, there was one law enacted against particular types of firearms. The Georgia Supreme Court held it unconstitutional as a violation of the Second Amendment. Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243 (1846). The U.S. Supreme Court's 2008 Heller case extols Nunn because the "opinion perfectly captured the way in which the operative clause of the Second Amendment furthers the purpose announced in the prefatory clause." District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 612 (2008).
Shortly after the infamous crime in the Arkansas legislature, an 1837 Georgia statute declared:
that it shall not be lawful for any merchant or vender of wares or merchandize in this State, or any other person or persons whatever, to sell, or to offer to sell, or to keep or to have about their persons, or elsewhere any . . . Bowie or any other kinds of knives, manufactured and sold for the purpose of wearing or carrying the same as arms of offence or defence; pistols, dirks, sword-canes, spears, &c., shall also be contemplated in this act, save such pistols as are known and used as horseman's pistols.
Acts of the General Assembly of the State of Georgia Passed in Milledgeville at an Annual Session in November and December, 1837, pp. 90-91 (Milledgeville: P. L. Robinson, 1838) (Dec. 25, 1837).
Glossary:
"Dirk": Originally, a Scottish fighting knife with one cutting edge. Harold L. Peterson, Daggers & Fighting Knives of the Western World 60 (1968). According to Zalesky, "Dirks in America were small stabbing weapons, usually small daggers but sometimes single edged." Many 19th century laws forbade concealed carry of "dirks" and/or "daggers."
"Sword-cane": a sword concealed in a walking stick.
"Horse pistols": the only type of handgun not banned in Georgia. These were large handguns, usually sold in a pair, along with a double holster that was meant to be draped over a saddle. They were too large for practical carry by a person who was walking.
Although section 1 of the act was prohibitory, Section 4 contained an exception allowing open carry of some of the aforesaid arms, not including handguns: "Provided, also, that no person or persons, shall be found guilty of violating the before recited act, who shall openly wear, externally, Bowie Knives, Dirks, Tooth Picks, Spears, and which shall be exposed plainly to view…" The same section also allowed vendors to sell inventory they already owned, through the next year.
At the time, there was no right to arms in the Georgia Constitution. In 1846, the Georgia Supreme Court held the statute unconstitutional for all the enumerated arms, not just for handguns. The Court explained that the Second Amendment protected an inherent right, and nothing in the Georgia Constitution had ever authorized the state government to violate the right. For all the weapons, including handguns, the ban on concealed carry was upheld. The ban on handgun open carry was unconstitutional.
Nunn was among the many antebellum state court decisions holding that a right enumerated in the U.S. Bill of Rights was protected against state infringement. See Jason Mazzone, The Bill of Rights in Early State Courts, 92 Minn. L. Rev. 1 (2007); Akhil Reed Amar, The Bill of Rights 145-56 (1998) (discussing "the Barron contrarians").
B. Aymette v. State
In 1837, Tennessee prohibited concealed carry of Bowie knives and Arkansas toothpicks. 22 Tenn. Gen. Assemb. Acts 200, ch. 137 (1838). An 1838 bill to add pistols to the concealed carry ban was rejected. Tennessee Legislature, Daily Republican Banner (Nashville), Jan. 13, 1838, at 2. The Tennessee Supreme Court upheld the concealed carry ban in a famous 1840 case. Aymette v. State, 21 Tenn. (2 Hum.) 154 (1840).
The Tennessee Constitution's right to arms at the time was "the free white men of this State have a right to keep and to bear arms for their common defence." The racial exclusion to the original 1796 Constitution had been added in 1834. As noted above, the U.S. Senate had rejected inserting a "common defence" clause into the proposed Second Amendment.
According to the Tennessee Court, the right to keep arms was an individual right. But the right to bear arms was only for service in a militia. The right to bear arms "does not mean for private defence, but being armed, they may as a body, rise up to defend their just rights, and compel their rulers to respect the laws." The legislature could forbid arms that are "not usual in civilized warfare, or would not contribute to the common defence." Aymette at 157-59. According to the Court, Bowie knives "are efficient only in the hands of the robber and the assassin. These weapons would be useless in war. They could not be employed advantageously in the common defence of the citizens. The right to keep and bear them is not, therefore, secured by the constitution." Id. at 158.
The Aymette court was very wrong on the facts. In 1836, the people of Texas had used Bowie knives to "rise up to defend their just rights," in their War of Independence from Mexico. The Texans won the war at the Battle of San Jacinto on April 21, 1836, when they stormed the Mexican breastworks, and used their Bowie knives to rout and put to flight the army of Mexican dictator Santa Ana. Kopel et al., Knives, at 189-90.
During the Civil War, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama had to enact legislation to ameliorate the Bowie knife shortage that their laws had caused. The Tennessee legislature suspended the Bowie knife law for the duration. See Kopel, Bowie knife statutes 1837-1899. The militia of neighboring Mississippi often carried Bowie knives. Benson J. Lossing, 1 Pictorial History of the Civil War in the United States of America 479 n.2, 541 n.2 (1866) So did other soldiers, from every part of the nation. Flayderman at 125–68.
According to the U.S. Supreme Court in Heller, Aymette "erroneously, and contrary to virtually all other authorities," read the right to keep and bear arms as limited to the overthrow of a tyrannical government. Heller, 554 U.S. at 613. Heller held that the Second Amendment right to arms is not limited to the types of arms used by militia.
C. Cockrum v. State
After winning independence in 1836, the Republic of Texas joined the United States in 1845. A Texas state statute provided that a person convicted of manslaughter with a Bowie knife or dagger would be considered guilty of murder. For murder convictions in general, Texas law gave the jury discretion to impose a sentence of solitary confinement for life. In Cockrum, the judge had erroneously taken away the jury's discretion, and instructed them to impose solitary for life. Accordingly, a new trial was necessary. Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394 (1859).
The Cockrum court rejected the defense attorney's argument that enhanced punishment for a crime with a Bowie knife violated the Texas Constitution right to arms and the Second Amendment. "The right to carry a bowie-knife for lawful defense is secured, and must be admitted," wrote the court. Id. at 402. But the right to own and carry a Bowie knife for lawful self-defense did not preclude enhanced punishment for using the weapon in a crime. Id. at 403.
The court explained why Bowie knife crime was appropriate for enhanced sentencing:
It is an exceeding destructive weapon. It is difficult to defend against it, by any degree of bravery, or any amount of skill. The gun or pistol may miss its aim, and when discharged, its dangerous character is lost, or diminished at least. The sword may be parried. With these weapons men fight for the sake of the combat, to satisfy the laws of honor, not necessarily with the intention to kill, or with a certainty of killing, when the intention exists. The bowie-knife differs from these in its device and design; it is the instrument of almost certain death.
Id. at 402–03 (emphasis added).
The Texas legislature had not infringed an iota on the right to possess and carry Bowie knives; but as be described in the companion article, Bowie knife statutes 1837-1899, a few other Southern legislatures enacted taxes discouraging Bowie knife possession by the poor. In the antebellum era, not everyone could afford a firearm, but almost anyone could afford a large knife. As defense counsel in Cockrum had pointed out:
A bowie-knife or dagger, as defined in the code, is an ordinary weapon, one of the cheapest character, accessible even to the poorest citizen. A common butcher-knife, which costs not more than half a dollar, comes within the description given of a bowie-knife or dagger, being very frequently worn on the person. To prohibit such a weapon, is substantially to take away the right of bearing arms, from him who has not money enough to buy a gun or a pistol.
24 Tex. at 395-96. The Texas Supreme Court did not disagree with defense counsel's argument here. The court simply thought that extra punishment for violent criminals did not infringe the rights of peaceable poor people, or of anyone else.
In sum, two of the three antebellum right to arms cases involving Bowie knives stated that keeping and bearing such arms is a constitutional right. The Aymette decision was to the contrary, but it was based on the double error that the right to arms is for militia-type arms only, and that a Bowie knife is not such an arm.
As Cockrum illustrates, Bowie knife laws were not really about Bowie knives per se. Such laws amounted to generic laws about large knives, including very old-fashioned types such as butcher knives.
The discussion of Bowie knife statutes continues in Bowie knife statutes 1837-1899. In short, Bowie knives were quickly assimilated to lawmaking about old-fashioned knives, such as dirks and daggers. Often, these knives were regulated the same as handguns. Sales bans were rare, with Tennessee joined only by Arkansas, in 1881. The norm in other states was limits on concealed carry and sales to minors, and penalties for misuse.
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What I find missing is any concurrent discussion on the legality of swords and cutlasses -- as I believe that the Bowie knife was developed as a shorter version of these weapons.
And maybe I've seen too many movies, but didn't people wear swords in public in the 18th and 19th Centuries?
Hence two questions:
1: How much of this was about the CONCEALED aspect of the knife versus the possession of it in general. In reading the old laws about concealed guns, the issue was that they were concealed and the person getting into the fight didn't know that the other was armed.
Look at the legislature issue -- both men had CONCEALED Bowie knives -- and might not have gone as far had that been known.
2: How much of this was about controlling the Black population during Jim Crow? Remember that each $100 back then would be $2,274 today -- the $500 license fee for an automatic weapon would be over $10,000 today!
So you have a wealthy White minority, and a poor Black majority, along with poor Whites thrown in -- and how do you allow the first group to be armed without also extending that right to the other two. Well Mitt Romney put it best -- those who can't afford the license fees don't have to own guns.
One other thing -- what if (a) there is a historical basis for banning guns or knives, but (b) that basis would be considered unconstitutional today for other reasons.
The classic example is the Black Code -- say the law only applied to Blacks. That'd be unconstitutional today, so does it count?
Or say a "good moral character" law which prohibited "living in sin" (and does anyone under the age of 40 even know what that means?)?
The "black code" is unconstitutional because the constitution changed.
But the constitutional rules allowing firearm restrictions would have been legal under the constitution of the time, it's only the interpretation of the relevant parts of the constitution that have changed. But if that were the case that would put the supposed judicial philosophy (originalism) at odds with a largely unrestricted right to bear arms, I don't think there's any doubt which of the two beliefs would get dumped.
"How much of this was about controlling the Black population during Jim Crow?"
It still is, especially in the "Blue" States so averse to Citizens exercising their 2d Amendment Rights. Be interesting to see how many Afro-Amuricans (HT C. Powell) who weren't Politicians/Celebrities had any of the few Concealed Permits in NY, MA, CA, D.C. or have them now, seeing as how the aforementioned "Progressive" States/wantabe States have suddenly become Orville Faubus circa 1954 in obstructing a Surpreme Court recognized Constitutional right.
Frank "My Carry Permit?? The U.S. Constitution"
The sword as a part of fashion was more 17th-18th century. They were replaced by the less-startling cane.
In Bruen the Supreme Court majority excluded from consideration slightly more than 50% of U.S., "history and tradition," on firearms, for no better reason than they did not like what was in it. Then, in the historical interval remaining to them, they arbitrarily excluded clear-cut evidence whenever it contradicted the result they intended to reach.
That results-oriented travesty of an argument is by no means the limit of their offenses against principles of historical reasoning, but it is enough. Bruen must be numbered among the worst-reasoned decisions the Court has ever handed down. Kopel, of course, is a historically unprincipled gun advocate, delighted to endorse every syllable.
Your "no better reason" actually had a reason which you dare not admit. But we all know that you know that we know that you know it.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I doubt you do.
"In Bruen the Supreme Court majority excluded from consideration slightly more than 50% of U.S., “history and tradition,” on firearms, for no better reason than they did not like what was in it."
You either didn't read Bruen yet insist on commenting about its contents, or you're lying. Which is it?
Kleppe, I did read Bruen. But for that comment I relied on Kopel's OP. He said the court excluded as too recent all history after 1900. Here is Kopel:
According to the Court, the legal history of the Founding Era is the most important, the late nineteenth century much less so, and the twentieth century too late to create a tradition that contradicts the text of the Second Amendment.
That did not conflict with my recollection of Bruen. That excludes 122 years from a historical interval beginning in 1789—not counting all the other arbitrary pre-1900 exclusions of evidence the Court did not like. You can do the math yourself.
Of course you may presume I should have considered U.S. history back into pre-Constitutional times, maybe even including colonial history. Unlike Kopel (or anyone in the Bruen majority), I got graduate training bearing on historical interpretation of that era. For the sake of keeping things simple, I chose not to detail the egregious errors of historical method the Court and Kopel made interpreting (or mostly ignoring) that era.
"That did not conflict with my recollection of Bruen."
Kopel oversimplified and your recollection is wrong. There were certainly other reasons, including that many laws were never subject to judicial review and that others were found unconstitutional. Such legislation makes a very poor foundation for any constitutional gun control.
gormadoc, the subject of my comment is not constitutional interpretation standing alone. The subject is history and tradition used to justify constitutional findings.
History is what it is, without regard to any uses it may be put to. If your point is that the Court is entitled to ignore the interval 1900-present—including the pre-Heller era—then you construct a circular historical argument to support the Court in an anti-historical finding.
The Court pretends a long interval never happened during which the militia right was the dominant legal principle. It is not intellectually honest to do that for the purpose of deciding whether the militia right was the dominant legal principle at the time. Some other legal principle might have led to that kind of decision, but it is simply mistaken history to say in such a case history and tradition justifies it. You do not get to memory hole half of history, and call your argument historical. What the Court has done is to announce, "History justifies this decision, because we have adjusted history to justify this decision."
I did not mention previously, but will add now, that if you actually claim to argue from history and tradition, you do not get to argue as the Court has done, from legal history alone. You must also give weight to historical practice. If there are laws on the books saying one thing, but widespread or customary practice is to the contrary, historians will tell you that such laws are a historical detail worth noting, but that the dominant practice ought to feature prominently in the history of the time. If state laws say one thing, but local jurisdictions decide cases otherwise, that is not non-history, it is critically important history.
Of course, it could happen that the laws and customary practice present a mixed picture, with the law sometimes and in some places followed, and at other times, or in other places, ignored. The historically honest account of such findings would be that history and tradition present an inconclusive picture. That is what a historically accurate enquiry would announce, with considerable attention to the specific details.
There is no language in Bruen to show that the Court even attempted that kind of analysis, let alone proved its point by doing it. Kopel, of course, has not done it either. He is simply cheerleading the Court as it ignores history, or adjusts it.
Lathrop, ignoring the period between 1900 and Heller for 2nd amendment purposes is like ignoring the Jim Crow period for 14th amendment interpretation. During that period the states were actively attacking the right in question, not trying to respect it.
This is completely circular.
Tell me, if we were currently discussing how to interpret the 14th amendment, would you tell me that we had to treat Jim Crow as binding precedent? And if you wouldn't, why not?
19th century gun control was no different, in fact gun control was a component of Jim Crow.
Bellmore, I would tell you that you cannot for any legitimate reason omit Jim Crow from a discussion of the nation's history and tradition. If it turns out that including Jim Crow in the discussion makes a would-be originalist analysis nonsensical (or otherwise unacceptable), then that is a problem for originalist reasoning either to cope with, or to stub its toe on.
As long as the door is open even a crack, some people will try to find ways to ban guns.
This nonsense is only going to end one of two ways: either the US Supreme Court finally rules all gun control laws are unconstitutional, or a second Civil War. I hope for the former, but fear it will be the latter.
Bruen is better than what went before, but I long for the day the Court returns to it's US v Miller clarity: The "arms" protected are those suitable for military use. Lesser arms may be protected on the basis that once you've got a right to military arms, no rational basis exists for denying you anything less dangerous, but the point was that the citizenry be entitled to own the very weapons they'd be using if called up as a militia.
...the point was that the citizenry be entitled to own the very weapons they’d be using if called up as a militia.
That is incredibly contradictory then. You are making use of the era when there actually was a militia made up of citizens not otherwise under military jurisdiction. And then say that because members of militias then could use the same rifles people in the standing armed forces had, that is justification for allowing people with no connection to anything like a militia to use modern military-grade weapons.
The whole point of Heller was to separate the right to bear arms from the militia and declare it to be a right of the individual instead. That is, a person has no need to be connected to defending the community through a militia to be guaranteed a right to bear arms, as an original meaning of the 2nd Amendment. To use militias in an argument regarding gun rights in the present should then be precluded by Heller, if you have any interest at all in being consistent.
"separate the right to bear arms from the militia and declare it to be a right of the individual"
Seems to me that it recognized the individual right already existed and was not intended to be contingent on current service in a militia.
Recognized how? Not from history. The historical evidence is clear, and to the contrary.
Your comment seems predicated on the same muddled notion of historical reasoning used by Scalia. His premise was that historical analysis is practiced as pastiche. To decide what the purpose of the 2A was at the founding, you ransack the historical record—depending especially heavily on post-founding era citations, or citations from far away and long previous—to infer what the founders' reasoning must have been, while ignoring and disparaging what they actually said their purpose was.
That is not historical reasoning. Nor is it, "originalism," in any intellectually respectable understanding of the term. To insist that, "originalism," practiced that way is okay, because the method is an invention of the legal profession, and they get to define it, merely marks a current vogue to move away from intellectual honesty in legal reasoning. It is unwise to do that.
I thought they were quite clear about the point of the 2nd amendment:
See what Storey had to say about the 2nd amendment:
"The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them. And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations. How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights."
The militia is best defense of a free state, both because it is an effective and affordable defense for any state, but also because, being the people itself, it won't willingly be used to oppress the people.
So, why the right? Because not every ruler wants to rule a free state.
The government might discontinue the militia system, actively want it gone. But if everybody has a right to the weapons, even if they're not in the formal militia, it would remain possible to raise a militia in an emergency anyway.
The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers.
You realize of course that domestic insurrection is the defense against domestic usurpations of power by rulers.
Sure, and that’s the point of the militia system, similar to trial by jury.
Nobody thinks juries are ideal for applying the law, or reasoning according to the facts presented in the trial. If that were all that mattered, you’d either go with professional juries with legal training, or just skip it entirely and use the Napoleonic system.
We have juries specifically because they will sometimes refuse to uphold the law. Jury nulification. Those citizens are there in the courtroom to refuse to convict guilty people when the law itself is offensive to the values of the people.
Similarly, nobody thinks a militia is militarily equal, man for man, to a professional military. Obviously the guys who spend all their time on that and nothing else will be better at fighting. The militia is superior to a standing army because it will sometimes refuse to obey orders!
The standing army is loyal to the government, not the people. It will suppress ALL domestic insurrections, just along with unjust. The militia will evaluate them, and in some cases take the side of the insurrectionists, instead of the government.
THAT is the point of the militia system: It’s a sword in the government’s hand, but a sword that will turn in the government’s hand if put to an unjust use.
History shows that a standing army is not at all necessarily loyal to th government.
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they’re not.”
Variously attributed to Einstein, Feynman, and so forth, but actually a student at Yale in the 1800’s…
The courts are bound by the theory embodied in the law, even if sometimes it has proven to be less than correct. Embodying a different theory into the law is the role of other parts of society, not theirs, because if the courts can pick the theory they want, they get to take that choice away from everybody else.
The courts are bound by the theory embodied in the law, even if sometimes it has proven to be less than correct.
What makes you say that? Brown v. Board’s logic is explicitly about law in practice not acting like law in fact.
Can you amplify on that?
What I mean is, for instance, the preface of the 2nd amendment reads, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state," This is a theory about how things work, which was placed into the highest law of the land.
As a consequence of this, the judiciary are obligated to reason on the basis of a well regulated militia actually being necessary to the security of a free state, even if they personally think that isn't true.
Brown v. Board looks at the *practice* of school segregation to derive the stigma that it leans on to find that even if practiced equally, such a doctrine would be unconstitutional.
Heck, Shelby County looks at the South's implementation of voting rights, makes the ridiculous conclusion that they're good now, and proceeds from that finding.
Or check out 4A jurisprudence, which is extremely facts-based.
The idea that theory is all that matters to constitutional law is disproven again and again by cases.
"Brown v. Board looks at the *practice* of school segregation to derive the stigma that it leans on to find that even if practiced equally, such a doctrine would be unconstitutional."
Well, that's silly, because it never was practiced equally. And they damned well knew that.
"Heck, Shelby County looks at the South’s implementation of voting rights, makes the ridiculous conclusion that they’re good now, and proceeds from that finding."
Nothing ridiculous about it at all, if you actually look at the implementation now and half a century ago, at the fact that then "suppression" involved police dogs, fire hoses, and the like, and today "suppression" is things like not having enough days of early voting.
"Or check out 4A jurisprudence, which is extremely facts-based.
The idea that theory is all that matters to constitutional law is disproven again and again by cases."
Good thing I never said that. I said that, when a theory is embodied in the Constitution, the judiciary are obligated to reason on the basis of it being true, regardless of their personal opinions.
The Court's reasoning does not require that SbE was never implemented equally. You may think that's silly, but the case is not about how it'll never be equal; it's reasoning goes a lot deeper than that. I don't think it's silly at all.
The courts are bound by the theory embodied in the law, even if sometimes it has proven to be less than correct.
And yet...
if you actually look at the implementation now and half a century ago, at the fact that then “suppression” involved police dogs, fire hoses, and the like, and today “suppression” is things like not having enough days of early voting.
This goes against your previous reasoning wherein the actual facts of what counts as suppression should not matter - only the theory embodied in the law should, and that hasn't changed!
Like what even is "a theory is embodied in the Constitution" that you're talking about?!
Bellmore, it seems peculiar to cite that by Storey, which is essentially a defense of the militia interpretation, as a historical support for Bruen. But leave that aside. Storey himself is a historical figure, although not a founder. You say:
I thought they were quite clear about the point of the 2nd amendment:
See what Storey had to say about the 2nd amendment:
But Storey, who was 10 years old when the Constitution was ratified, cites no history at all for his 19th century ruminations. Storey himself cannot be an antecedent for founding era history, no matter how you misinterpret what he had to say. Even if you can find something else by Storey, citing historical sources to justify his views, you have to check those sources before concluding that they, not Storey, deliver the founding era historical insight Bruen pretends to rely upon, but does not deliver.
Needless to say, those sources—the ones where actual founders said anything about a 2A purpose other than to protect militia service from federal usurpation—have never been found by anyone. If they exist, they must be moldering away in some obscure attic cabinet, or maybe in England somewhere, awaiting discovery. The archives of this nation have been ransacked looking for them without success.
Of course I get that you think it follows logically that to have militia service, a private right to weapons must also exist. And so it does. But there is zero historical reason to believe that anything but state law was intended as a basis of protection for that private right. The militias, after all, were state institutions, not federal ones.
You are, once again, making the mistake that the 'militia' was a government institution. It wasn't. The militia was all adult men. It wasn't a state institution.
How does this make any sense? If every adult male could be their own 'militia', answerable to no one but themselves, then how does that help maintain the security of a free state? It sounds a lot more like a recipe for anarchy to me.
Storey may have been 10 when the Constitution was ratified, but he was a personal acquaintance of a number of the founders, who after all didn't drop dead immediately after that ratification.
"Needless to say, those sources—the ones where actual founders said anything about a 2A purpose other than to protect militia service from federal usurpation—have never been found by anyone."
I hope you're wearing a pedometer while parading your ignorance this way, be a shame to leave all those steps unrecorded.
"The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry.
"Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table [the Constitution] gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor." George Mason, explaining why a 2nd amendment was needed.
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." Tench Coxe, popularizing the Bill of rights for James Madison.
Seriously, though, I'm sure you already knew this.
Bellmore, as with all gun advocates who venture to discuss the history of America's founding, you have reached desperation. Patrick Henry led the opposition to the Constitution. He was no founder; he was an anti-founder. He was also an unreliable source with regard to what the founders intended and did.
George Mason also opposed the Constitution, but is credited with pressure to add a Bill of Rights. Despite attending the Philadelphia convention, Mason refused to sign the Constitution.
By his biography and previous associations, Coxe was closer to being qualified as a founder than the other two. But he did not participate directly in the Philadelphia convention.
Why is it that gun advocates can never cite anyone but anti-Federalists, outright opponents of American constitutionalism like Patrick Henry, or outliers like Coxe? I will tell you why. It is because Henry and Mason feared American constitutionalism as a threat to their slave-based society—a specific fear which was later prettied up and generalized in popular accounts with mumbling about a federal government with too much power.
Hold yourself to some kind of historical standard. Find someone with his name on the Constitution to cite as a founder. I get that you think you should not have to do that. You suppose like Scalia that history can be practiced by pastiche. You think that any citation from anyone, at any time, anywhere, if it is about guns, is somehow relevant to explain what the Constitution says about guns. You refuse to recognize that as obvious nonsense, because to recognize it would sink your claims to originalism. Your arguments have been purely political—just like the Supreme Court decisions on guns which you celebrate.
You are in plentiful company—all wrong together about the past. History is what it is. Chorusing assertions to the contrary changes nothing about the past—but can affect politics and Supreme Court decisions.
At least abandon the pretense that arguments won that way deliver historical legitimacy. Content yourself that politics—the means prescribed by the founders to conduct the governance of the nation—has for now gone your way.
1. It was always an individual right.
2. We are all part of the militia. (Okay, technically, just the men are.) That's actually federal law (10 USC 246).
Beyond that, the militia preamble to the 2nd was always a justification for the right, never a *condition* of the right.
There is plenty to worry about in the wake of Bruen.
Last week, a federal judge in Texas (naturally) relied on Bruen to rule that the federal law that prohibits people under protective orders stemming from domestic violence incidents from possessing firearms is unconstitutional.
The part of the decision that strikes me as the most absurd was how he pointed to the lack of history of laws from the first century after the Constitution was adopted that took guns away from abusers. While he notes that there were laws against spousal abuse, and prosecution and punishment did occur (though I'm sure it was much less common than abuse was), he said this:
But glaringly absent from the historical record—from colonial times until 1994—are consistent examples of the government removing firearms from someone accused (or even convicted) of domestic violence.
Basically, Founding era legislatures didn't take guns away from men that beat women, so we can't do that now.
The late Justice Scalia had once referred to himself as a "faint-hearted originalist." He noted that he wouldn't allow some punishments that were common in the Founding era as being consistent with the 8th Amendment now, such as flogging. But he later changed his mind.
Scalia: I try to be an honest originalist! I will take the bitter with the sweet! What I used “fainthearted” in reference to was—
Interviewer: Flogging, right?
Flogging. And what I would say now is, yes, if a state enacted a law permitting flogging, it is immensely stupid, but it is not unconstitutional. A lot of stuff that’s stupid is not unconstitutional.
This is the problem with originalism. It forces judges to use the moral thinking of the past to decide cases in the present. Beating someone to the point of ripping open the skin on their back isn't "cruel and unusual punishment" because people in the early 18th century didn't think so. It is manifestly unjust to use moral reasoning from then regarding acceptable punishment, gender roles, race issues, and more. The Constitution made itself too difficult to amend to wait for the necessary level of consensus before adjusting how we treat people further toward equality and compassion than Americans 200 years ago.
Sorry, past edit time. That should read "early 19th century" in the last paragraph.
The neat thing about a living constitution is that it means whatever we decide at the moment. Bruen happened so the living constitution says founding era fun laws are the most salient! No need to fight, since living constitution ideology and originalism now agree that modern gun control is unconstitutional.
No, originalism is not the only interpretive method with any limitations to it.
In fact, to hear these gun discussions, originalism doesn’t have much limit to it when people work at it!
Sarcastro, admittedly living constitutionalism has something like limitations, but in practice, "Only arrives at results the user approves of" isn't much of a limitation.
Yes, we all know you think all judicial opinions you disagree with are arrived at in bad faith.
But that’s a Brett problem.
In reality there are plenty of rights liberals could find that they are not finding. Education as a fundamental right has popular support, but somehow the unprincipled liberals never declared it so,
Look at the thread here. Where is there anyone arguing originalism that isn’t arguing for their preferred outcome?
Could it be that I "prefer" what the Constitution actually says (as opposed to its opposite, which is what "liberals" prefer)?!
No, that could not be. What the 2A actually says limits the federal right to protection against federal usurpation of state militias. Liberals are fine with that interpretation. Also fine with state-by-state protections for gun rights.
About now, liberals are beginning to think Dobbs is a pretty good model for legal reasoning about guns. I would support that. How about you?
"What the 2A actually says limits the federal right to protection against federal usurpation of state militias."
Says the guy who can't even tell the difference between "People" and states. In fact, the militia clauses of the Constitution pretty clearly give the federal government a huge amount of authority over state militias. Which is irrelevant in 2nd amendment terms, because it doesn't say "right of the Militia".
"About now, liberals are beginning to think Dobbs is a pretty good model for legal reasoning about guns. I would support that. How about you?"
OK, that's just imbecilic. Dobbs was based on the utter and complete lack of any mention of a right to abortion in the Constitution, coupled with some contested claims about the legal treatment of abortion around the time the 9th amendment was adopted, which bore on whether it qualified as an unenumerated right.
The 2nd amendment spikes any claim to apply the reasoning of Dobbs to guns. It's an explicit constitutional right, the only real debate is over the scope of it.
And if we were discussing, say, the meaning of the 16 amendment? The 17th? A lot of originalists think those amendments were horrible mistakes, very few will argue for a meaning that renders them moot.
You have to expect originalism to lead to conclusions more congenial to the right than to the left, because it's the left that's trying to change things. And originalism is all about things not changing unless you use the formal amendment procedures.
How often do you find living constitutionalists arguing that the Constitution has "evolved" in a direction they don't like? Arguing that the Court was wrong about the original meaning of the 2nd amendment, but Bruen was fine anyway because the march of concealed carry reforms has proven the Court was right about where things were going?
I don't think I've ever met a living constitutionalist who'd say that the Constitution had evolved in a direction they didn't like. The most you'll see is them treating some meaning they'd like to impose on it as a bridge too far.
Lets start here:
How often do you find living constitutionalists arguing that the Constitution has “evolved” in a direction they don’t like?
How do you think this is enough of a point you repeat it twice?!! No, it is not surprising that things are better than the 1700s in nearly all areas of life!! But it does say a lot about you, who thinks it's impossible that modernity could have across the board improved understandings of the broad practical and moral philosophical framework the Constitution lays out. I'm all for some Burkian respect for tradition, but this is ridiulous
And it's also telling that you take me for arguing originalism is a purely unmoored outcome-oriented doctrine. No, that delegitimization is your game. I think Originalism is fine, even if I think it's wrong. I do think it is no more or less outcome oriented as any other doctrine. Because living constitutionalists don't read Amendments out, or text. Even lefties who hate the 2A still argue for it to be repealed; none argue it has no legal force.
Do you claim that living constitutionalists find the age requirement for President to be fake regardless of their thoughts? The differences you lean on to take not just the moral high horse, but to declare that all who disagree with you are arguing in bad faith are all nothing.
And as you practice originalism, you're actually lower than most who practice *any* method of originalism. You continue to apply the unreconstructed 1980s political project without any attention to subsequent actual research done by academics like Will Baude
And hey hey it sure does align with your personal analysis of the Constitution. Which happens to align with the 1980s project of attacking every Warren Court precedent. Amazing how you don't need to do a lot of history research to have your takes Endorsed by the Founders!
I notice you didn't even attempt to argue that living constitutionalists sometimes argue that the Constitution has evolved in a direction they don't personally like. So the above is just a long-winded concession of the point: They don't.
"Even lefties who hate the 2A still argue for it to be repealed; none argue it has no legal force."
What crap. Yes, a few lefties who hate the 2nd amendment argue for its repeal. Most, knowing they have no chance of accomplishing that, just promote tendentious 'interpretations' that, yes, deprive it of all legal force. You'll probably recall Stevens, in his Heller dissent, arguing that it safeguarded the right to be armed as a soldier in government service. That's as absurd as claiming that the right to freedom of speech refers to compulsory testimony in a courtroom! When has complying with the government's own orders ever been construed to be a "right", let alone "a right of the People"?
Yeah, I don’t argue that, because your goalpost is, forgive my language, retarded.
I argue that it is expected that modern understanding, as informs Constitutional jurisprudence, will be better aligned with modern thinking.
The crazy ones are the originalists who attempt to argue otherwise! They’re few and far between – most argue that this or that unpopular opinion (always popular with the conservative crowd!) is required by the Will of The Founders. But some few, you apparently among them, argue that no it’s weird to think that bringing stuff we’ve learned since the late 1700s is always better.
Yes, a few lefties who hate the 2nd amendment argue for its repeal. Most, knowing they have no chance of accomplishing that, just promote tendentious ‘interpretations’ that, yes, deprive it of all legal force. Or, maybe THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU!
This is an area of utter symmetry - your take on the Constitution aligns with what you want to see, and theirs aligns with what they want to see. You declaring you're in good faith, and they're in bad faith, because you are right and they are wrong? That is childlike.
It also has nothing to do with originalism, which cuts both ways on the issue.
"This is the problem with originalism. It forces judges to use the moral thinking of the past to decide cases in the present."
It doesn't force the legislature to do that, though. And there are procedures in place for changing what the Constitution means.
This is separation of responsibilities: The job of the courts is enforcing the rules, not MAKING the rules. Originalism just says that the rules being enforced by the courts don't change until the formal procedure for changing them has been used. Procedures that give somebody else that authority.
Yet again this ignores the judicial process and it’s reliance on precedent. Something the Founders were well aware of,
Bellmore, you argue as if you think Heller was a constitutional amendment. Is it possible that you think Bruen and Dobbs presented honest, soundly-reasoned historical interpretations to support originalist opinions?
I think Dobbs was honest enough, it was at least within the realm of reasonable interpretation of history.
Bruen, like Heller, is still a bit short of a fully originalist reading of the 2nd amendment. But they're gradually getting there.
You had better look up the history of publicly advertised abortion services in big city newspapers for decades during the 19th century—including decades during which laws to the contrary went almost entirely unenforced. That is not occult knowledge. You can find it in a second with a Google search. Dobbs was utterly dishonest about history.
When it comes to gun laws, start from the premise that the left is acting in bad faith and work backwards. You'll be right 100% of the time.
This was a fascinating and very educational read. One thing that struck me about the historical background and context of the Bowie knife bans is that many cities and states throughout the US (as well as the federal government, to a degree) have analogous laws that are nearly identical in all relevant respects to the Bowie Knife bans that are currently in effect—they just apply to butterfly knives, switchblades, and a handful of other kinds of weapons (e.g., in CA, pen/lipstick knives, nunchucks, and a handful of other items are also banned), which I'll just refer to as "switchblade bans" for short.
My understanding of the history of these switchblade bans is that they were passed in the late '50s and early '60s in the wake of mass hysteria about the use of stilettos, butterfly knives, and etc., by so-called 'greasers' and other criminals, the image of which was popularized by the media and a variety of Hollywood movies where teenage delinquents wearing black jackets and carrying Italian stilettos engaged in a variety of criminal conduct. In response, in 1958 the federal government passed the Federal Switchblade Act and a variety of states and local government passed laws and ordinances prohibiting these 'unusually dangerous' weapons.
The speeches given by legislators in support of these laws were... something else. For example, Representative Sidney R. Yates of Illinois, speaking in support of the Federal Switchblade Act, stated:
“Vicious fantasies of omnipotence, idolatry… barbaric and sadistic atrocities, and monstrous violations of the accepted values spring from the cult of the weapon, and the switchblade knife is included in this. Minus switchblade knives and distorted feeling of power they beget – power that is swaggering, reckless, and itching to express itself in violence – our delinquent adolescents would be shorn of one of their most potent means of incitement to crime.”
Given the history of Bowie knife bans and the fact that a court applying Bruen would probably find such a ban unconstitutional, I believe that, if challenged, these switchblade laws would fail to pass constitutional muster as well.
One interesting nuance in a challenge to switchblade bans, however, would be that, given their unique mechanism of operation that differentiates them from, e.g., a kitchen knife, they are arguably more "dangerous and unusual" than a Bowie knife. While a typical pocket knife at the time required two hands and a second or two to open, a switchblade or a butterfly knife can be opened with one hand very quickly, arguably making it more 'dangerous' than other folding knives. And the spring mechanism of a switchblade and the swinging handles of a butterfly knife are certainly 'unusual' in terms of knife design (though this is an argument could be made for any new and innovative mechanism of operation in a weapon, e.g., a gas piston system in an AR like the HK416), at least compared to the folding and fixed blade knives of the 1950s and 60s.
However, the most interesting question to me raised by the switchblade bans is whether it's possible for something to be "dangerous and unusual" at one point in time, but, through developments in technology and the subsequent widespread adoption by the public of such developments, to be no longer "dangerous and unusual" in the modern day. Specifically, while the locking mechanisms in folding knives of the 50s and 60s required 2 hands and several seconds to open and close, subsequent developments in pocket knife technology which have been widely adopted, such as 'spring assist' mechanisms and Benchmade's Axis Lock, enable the user to open the knife with one hand in the blink of an eye. So while at one point the speed of opening and ability to open the knife one-handed were features which made switchblades and butterfly knives unique among pocket knives at the time, this is simply no longer the case. Indeed, because of how popular spring assisted and Axis Lock knives have become, CA recently added an exception to its definition of switchblade that specifically exempts these commonly used kinds of knives from the switchblade ban statute.
I'm curious about how a court applying Bruen would evaluate the above facts. Should the question of whether a weapon falls into the 'dangerous and unusual' category be evaluated in the context of the state of technology when the law was enacted or in the present day (and, if both are relevant, which should be given more weight)? Under an Originalist framework which presumes that the text of a constitutional amendment has a static meaning, is it possible in the 2A context for a law to be constitutional when enacted but, due to changed circumstances and technological developments, unconstitutional at a future date?
This is the first thing that came to mind when talking about switchblades in a thread under and article about Bowie knife bans.
I’ve gotta admit I chuckled pretty hard when I clicked the link.
It also made me wonder: what exactly does ‘dangerous’ mean in the context of “the historical tradition prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons’?” Is a switchblade more ‘dangerous’ than a Bowie knife? And if so, why and what factors should a court consider when evaluating whether a regulation fits the exception? Should the fact that compact, easily concealable handguns like the Sig Sauer P365 (or for that matter handguns generally), which are far more 'dangerous' than any switchblade or Bowie knife, are widely available make the question of whether any knife is 'dangerous' enough to meet the test a moot point, or should a court measure the relative 'dangerousness' of a weapon like a switchblade solely by comparing it to other knives and bladed weapons?
I don't think that there's a clear answer to the above questions that can be found in Heller or Bruen, but I have a feeling that the more liberal circuits will be turning to the 'dangerous and unusual' exception to uphold gun control laws in a post-Bruen world.