The Volokh Conspiracy
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Right to Videorecord in Public Places Includes Right to Videorecord Voters at Dropboxes
An interesting echo, I think, of NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware (1982).
From Arizona Alliance for Retired Americans v. Clean Elections USA, decided today by Judge Michael T. Liburdi (D. Ariz.):
The contentious events surrounding the 2020 presidential election sparked an onslaught of speculation related to the validity and legitimacy of the electoral process. One such theory gained significant online prominence following the release of the 2000 Mules film. Primarily based on anonymized cellphone location data, the film tells the story of a shadowy network of "ballot mules" working to influence the 2020 election outcome by collecting fraudulent absentee ballots and strategically depositing them in early voting drop boxes throughout key electoral states. {In relation to this, Arizona law prohibits a person from collecting voted or unvoted early ballots from another person, with some exceptions. }
Inspired by the film, Ms. Jennings founded CEUSA and formulated a plan of action—#Dropboxinitiative2022—with the purpose of deterring so called "ballot mules" from using drop boxes. Using social media, Ms. Jennings encouraged supporters and affiliates to gather near drop boxes in groups of "[n]o less than 8 people" to track and deter these supposed "mules."
In the last several days, three separate Maricopa County voters filed formal complaints relating to voter intimidation near both early voter drop boxes. Both drop boxes are in parking lots and are positioned to allow voters to deposit ballots from their vehicles, drive-up style. The first complaint alleges that a group of individuals gathered near the Mesa, Arizona ballot drop box photographed and accused the voter and his wife of being mules. The voter further alleges that these individuals got in their vehicle and briefly followed him out of the parking lot to photograph his vehicle's license plate.
The second complaint reported that individuals took photographs of a voter and his vehicle's license plate while depositing mail-in ballots. The third complaint described a group of five or six men standing in the Mesa ballot drop box parking lot taking photographs of the voter's vehicle and license plate. In addition to these formal complaints, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office was dispatched to the Mesa drop box location to investigate armed and masked observers wearing body armor. All the while, Ms. Jennings used her social media account to publicize the work of her volunteers and recruit others….
Section 11(b) of the Voting Rights Acts states that no person, "whether acting under color of law or otherwise, shall intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person for voting or attempting to vote." The text of Section 11(b) sweeps broadly. It is well established that this provision applies to private conduct and can be enforced through private litigation…. [T]he "or otherwise" language in the statute is indicative of Congressional intent to regulate both private and public conduct under Section 11(b).
Here, Plaintiffs contend that Defendants have violated Section 11(b) through acts of intimidation or attempted intimidation. Determining what constitutes intimidation is left to the courts, as that term is not defined in the statute…. [T]he dictionary definitions of "intimidate" and "threaten" are instructive. "Intimidate" means to "make timid or fearful" or "inspire or affect with fear," especially "to compel action or inaction (as by threats)." "Threaten" means to "utter threats against" or "promise punishment, reprisal, or other distress."
Importantly, any definition of intimidation must account for rights established in the Constitution. In Wohl, the court balanced these interests and held that "intimidation includes messages that a reasonable recipient, familiar with the context of the message, would interpret as a threat of injury—whether physical or nonviolent—intended to deter individuals from exercising their voting rights." "[A]ctions or communications that inspire fear of economic harm, legal repercussions, privacy violations, and even surveillance" can violate Section 11(b). So long as the allegedly threatening or intimidating conduct puts individuals "in fear of harassment and interference with their right to vote," the conduct is sufficient to support a Section 11(b) claim. The statute prohibits this level of activity regardless of whether defendants acted with the specific intent of intimidating or threatening voters.
Plaintiffs' primary aim, as the Court finds it, is to put an end to Defendants' drop-box surveillance activities…. [T]he protections of the First Amendment do "not end at the spoken or written word." Rather, constitutional protection also extends to expressive conduct. To merit First Amendment protection, conduct must be "inherently expressive." Crucially, however, expressive conduct need not convey a specific message. The critical question is whether a reasonable observer would interpret the conduct as conveying some sort of message
The evidence in the record shows that Defendants' objective is deterring supposed illegal voting and illegal ballot harvesting. Ms. Jennings' social media posts demonstrate that she believes the presence of her volunteers alone would convey messages to these supposed "ballot mules." The message is that persons who attempt to break Arizona's anti-ballot harvesting law will be exposed. On this record, therefore, the Court finds that a reasonable observer could interpret the conduct as conveying some sort of message, regardless of whether the message has any objective merit.
Additionally, it is well-established that there is a "First Amendment right to film matters of public interest." Fordyce v. City of Seattle (9th Cir. 1995). The Supreme Court has recognized a right to gather news. Branzburg v. Hayes (1972). And the public has a First Amendment right to "receive information and ideas." Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia (1980) (citation omitted); see also First Nat'l Bank of Boston v. Bellotti (1978) ("[T]he First Amendment goes beyond protection of the press and the self-expression of individuals to prohibit government from limiting the stock of information from which members of the public may draw."). This right to receive information exists regardless of that information's social worth. Stanley v. Georgia (1969).
Having established that the conduct at issue here is subject to the protections of the First Amendment, the Court must analyze whether any well-established exception applies. At the hearing, Plaintiffs argued that the true threats doctrine precludes First Amendment protection. Plaintiffs are correct. The First Amendment does not protect speech that constitutes "true threats." True threats are "statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals," though the speaker "need not actually intend to carry out the threat." In determining whether speech is a true threat, the Court considers "the surrounding events and reaction of the listeners." Even a statement that appears to threaten violence may not be a true threat if the context indicates that it only expressed political opposition or was emotionally charged rhetoric. Conversely, a statement that does not explicitly threaten violence may be a true threat where a speaker makes a statement against a known background of targeted violence.
Plaintiffs have not provided the Court with any evidence that Defendants' conduct constitutes a true threat. On this record, Defendants have not made any statements threatening to commit acts of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals. There is no evidence that Defendants have publicly posted any voter's names, home addresses, occupations, or other personal information. In fact, Jennings continuously states that her volunteers are to "follow laws" and that "[t]hose who choose to break the law will be seen as an infiltrator intent on causing [CEUSA] harm." Jennings' social media posts also admonish volunteers to remain outside the statutorily prescribed seventy-five-foot voting location radius. {Arizona law provides that "a person shall not be allowed to remain inside the seventy-five foot limit while the polls are open, except for the purpose of voting … and no electioneering may occur within the seventy-five foot limit."} Furthermore, the record contains evidence of Jennings' social media posts instructing her affiliates not to engage with or talk to individuals at the drop boxes. Even if these statements are mere window dressing, a reasonable listener could not interpret Ms. Jennings' social media pronouncements that alleged "mules" will "shrink back into the darkness" following her drop box initiative as true threats.
Also, Defendants' conduct does not fall into any traditionally recognized category of voter intimidation. Cf. U.S. v. Tan Duc Nguyen (9th Cir. 2012) (concluding that the wide distribution of a letter among Latino immigrants warning "that if they voted in the upcoming election their personal information would be collected" and could be provided to anti-immigration organizations constitutes sufficient evidence to find unlawful intimidation under California law); U.S. v. McLeod (5th Cir. 1967) (holding that a pattern of baseless arrests of Black individuals attending a voter-registration meeting was intimidating and coercive conduct given its "chilling effect" on voter registration); U.S. v. Bruce (5th Cir. 1965) (holding that a landowner's restriction of an insurance collector's access to the landowner's property due to the insurance collector's efforts to register voters constitutes unlawful intimidation); U.S. v. Beaty (6th Cir. 1961) (holding that the eviction of sharecroppers as punishment for voter registration constitutes unlawful intimidation). In Daschle v. Thune (D.S.D. 2004), for example, the court enjoined defendants from following Native American voters from the polling locations or copying any of the Native Americans' license plate information. The court in Thune justified its injunction because there was intimidation particularly targeted at Native Americans—reasoning that the public interest is served by having no minority denied an opportunity to vote. There is no evidence here that the voters using the outdoor drop boxes are primarily minorities or that they have historically been victims of targeted violence. Taken together, the Court cannot conclude that Defendants' conduct constitutes a true threat.
The Court has struggled to craft a meaningful form of injunctive relief that does not violate Defendants' First Amendment rights and those of the drop box observers. The Court acknowledges that Plaintiffs and many voters are legitimately alarmed by the observers filming at the County's early voting drop boxes. But on this record, Defendants' conduct does not establish a likelihood of success on the merits that justifies preliminary injunctive relief. Alternatively, while this case certainly presents serious questions, the Court cannot craft an injunction without violating the First Amendment.
The court also rejected a claim under the Ku Klux Klan Act, which makes it a crime to "conspire[] to prevent by force, intimidation, or threat, any citizen who is lawfully entitled to vote, from giving his support or advocacy in a legal manner, toward or in favor of the election of any lawfully qualified person as an elector for President or Vice President, or as a member of Congress …." The Act requires "proof that the purpose or intent of Defendants' conspiracy was to intimidate or threaten voters from engaging in lawful activity related to voting in federal elections," but the court concluded that "Plaintiffs have not provided the Court with evidence that Defendants intend to prevent lawful voting."
[* * *]
Two thoughts of my own:
[1.] I'm surprised the court didn't talk more about the watchers' being armed. I appreciate that potentially raises Second Amendment questions as well, but it did seem to me a specific feature of the case that was worth discussing separately.
[2] As to the watching as such, this case reminds me of the question that arose in NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware (1982). There, the NAACP organized a black boycott of white-owned stores, and posted "store watchers" outside boycotted stores to take down the names of black shoppers; "the names of persons who violated the boycott were read at meetings of the Claiborne County NAACP and published in a mimeographed paper entitled the 'Black Times,'" and some of the blacks who weren't complying with he boycott were then violently attacked. Charles Evers, an NAACP official, also gave speeches that threatened both "social ostracism" of the noncomplying black residents, and also referred "to the possibility that necks would be broken and to the fact that the Sheriff could not sleep with boycott violators at night."
Nonetheless, the Court held that (1) the threat of social ostracism is constitutionally protected, even if "it may embarrass others or coerce them into action"; and that (2), in context, Evers' statements weren't sufficiently threatening of violence to be constitutionally unprotected. (I should say that I find this sort of monitoring either of ballot boxes or of stores to be potentially quite menacing; but the question is whether, despite that, such actions are constitutionally protected.)
Thanks to Prof. Rick Hasen (Election Law Blog) for the pointer.
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I'm not surprised they have the right to do this, but armed, masked, armoured creeps inspired by Trump's Big Lie to go videoing people at drop-boxes is definitely something that should be widely publicised. I shudder to think what'll happen if one or more of them decide to apprehend a 'mule,' though.
So if it were "armed, masked, armoured creeps inspired by Hillary’s or Stacey's Big Lie to go videoing people at drop-boxes", you'd be fine with it?
Your partisan slip is showing.
Yup. Obama correctly dropped the charges against black panthers engaged in similar activity, and I didn’t see many folks on the left complaining about that.
Except the Black Panthers actively blocked white people from voting.
You forgot that tidbit, and it was still dropped.
And the whites were voting in person not delivering ballots ‘on behalf’ of other people which is the danger the guards are protecting against.
I can tell there’s at least one commenter on this site who has never worked an vote by mail election where, after the R gains a lead by a very narrow margin ‘lost’ bags of ballots start appearing in subsequent days in the basements of Black polling locations, churches in my experience. Ballots which are counted upon the discretion of the county Secretary of State who most definitely doesn’t want to be called a racist for disqualifying the ballots. BTW- I’m confident some white polling places have found ‘lost’ ballots under similar circumstances favoring Rs. The naïveté lies in becoming moralistic by promoting the baseless notion that election fraud is hard to pull off.
They're not guards, and they are not in any position to protect 'us' from anything.
Of course it’s true that at least one commentator hasn’t, because no commentator has. With that level of skill in insinuating bullshit without actually making any false statements, you ought to be be working for Trump.
Great job with those scare quotes on “lost” so you’re insinuating saying that it’s actually the case. Where do you think mailed-in ballots are supposed to go to be counted if not the polling stations at the voters’ precincts? Part of the art is to describe perfectly normal goings-on in a way that never says any direct lie that could be actionable in court, yet makes them seem like a big criminal conspiracy.
You must have aced Advanced Bullshit in law school.
Setting aside your racism, this isn't even coherent. If people are voting by mail, how did the ballots get in church basements?
And there is no such thing as a "county Secretary of State," and if there's a question about specific ballots, the courts decide whether they should be counted.
In fact I distinctly remember folks on the right kicking up hell about it.
Because they were caught on video turning back a white voter.
Which is materially different than what these election integrity patriots are doing.
You claim lots of things have been caught on camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU
How the fuck do you people know so little about current events?
How the fuck do you lie so much?
The video is there. How is it a lie?
The video doesn't show anyone being blocked from voting, let alone, ultra-important and sacrosanct white people.
This is just like those videos of Ruby Freeman running those ballots through the counter repeatedly which you people insist isn't what we saw.
Reality has become a political Rosarch test for the Democrats.
And by "you people" you mean the Republican governor and Secretary of State of Georgia, asshole.
Yes I generally prefer to insist that videos don't show things they don't show. How frustrating that must be for you.
Link to the evidence, then.
Just one video, doesn't include the reports of intimidation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU
How the fuck do you people know so little about current events?
Oh hey that video shows nothing about them turning back a white voter, you lying weirdo.
Well
1. it's not a current event
2. that doesn't show anyone being turned away you lying pack o' pumpkin gizzards.
IIRC the right was absolutely ballistic about a couple of guys calling themselves the new Black Panthers in black berets hanging around.
Many people on the right certainly were.
But it wasn’t just berets. Some had guns, a guy had a knight stick. Iirc nobody did anything overtly threatening, but as BCD points out, there were some questionable moves. Definitely closer to the line than this incident.
Did you just cite BCD for truth?
Haha.
Meanwhile, you've never heard of this incident. hashtag dubba-u tee eff
Bullshit.
It was two guys. One had a billy club. Neither had a gun. They yelled some stuff at voters. The guy with the club was arrested.
Per Wikipedia
charges dropped - dem privilege
Did you read the fucking OP, Joe?
You can tell you’re scraping the bottom of a very shallow barrel when you’re whatabouting stuff that never happened.
You're the one making shit up.
“Trump’s Big Lie”
Of course you don’t have the slightest idea whether it was an lie or not because voter integrity laws are easy to game. Similarly, proving election fraud is difficult because there are many ways to steal an election. But, you have outed yourself as coming from a particularly distinct brand of ignoramus fashionable in D circles these days.
In the same way we don't have the slightest idea whether leprechauns riding pterodactyls have fixed the World Series: it could be true, but there's no actual evidence for it.
No. We have plenty of evidence that people commit electoral fraud when given the opportunity. Electoral fraud is an norm of human behavior just like speeding. That’s why there are deterrents built into the laws already because it is an common enough human behavior that we plan on it happening. Not so for flying dinosaurs.
I'm sorry, but pterodactyls aren't dinosaurs. Get your phylogenies right.
You can return to your previously scheduled meaningless exchange now.
Taking refuge in unsupported declarations about human nature is a really weak attempt to burden shift when you have no actual evidence.
Election fraud is the only crime humans don't commit!
Sincerely,
Sarcastr0
Humans embezzle. Therefore I bet Trump did.
Prove me wrong.
The bank down the street from me was robbed. No, they didn't say it was, and none of the tellers or customers did, and the police don't, and the bank's books balance and there's no security footage of a robbery… but we have plenty of evidence that people steal money when given the opportunity, so it must have been.
Let’s try that differently:
The bank down the street was robbed, and they said so, including the tellers, but when they reported it to the police, the police ignored them. When they pushed it harder, they were ostracized by the police and the rest of the townspeople, who called them “big liars”. Then national media picked up the “big liars” moniker and ran with it.
The above is a much more accurate synopsis than yours was.
No one is reporting anything though.
It’s just Trump being an asshole.
Got you to believe it.
Plenty of election fraud turned out to be easy to prove, there were lots of cases, though nearly all of them were Trump voters. Also 'easy' were the guys who were told they could vote then got arrested for voting. Not so easy: for anyone to prove Trump's Big Lie in court.
I assume you would prefer it be the Democrats' armed, masked "creeps".
Democrats don't generlly do armed masked creeps, but of they did, maybe they could watch the Republican armed masked creeps and the Republican armed masked creeps could watch the Democrat armed masked creeps and let everyone else get on with their voting in peace.
IOW, you really don't have anything to say except some imaginary whatabouttery.
The nutcase ratio here continues to increase.
Orders are to just film the possible ballot mules, so that is what they will do.
Yeah. Right. It takes ten people to operate a camera?
“Big Lie”. Keep parroting those talking points. Repetition may change some minds…
Seems like a circuitous path to get to an equivocal destination. Right at the top, you have this movement's summary of its own intent. They say they want to shut down drop box voting. What happens next is not advocacy via more speech, or better speech, to convince policy makers to get rid of drop boxes. It is instead a campaign to frighten people away. Seems like that simple juxtaposition makes the case for illegal intimidation overwhelming.
By the way, can you take a camera into an ordinary polling place, photograph every voter who enters, then follow them to their cars and photograph their license plates? If so, what besides intimidation can that possibly add to the already undeniable right to check voting records to see who voted?
Note finally that photography as an intimidator is about to get a huge boost, as facial recognition software allows people to track targets across the internet. Possession of your photograph has become a means to discover where you go, who you associate with, and what you do. Photography and the internet can be used to make family members mutually vulnerable.
It's a campaign to frighten illegal Democrat ballot mules away. There are already videos circulating of Democrats covering up their tags and dumping in loads of ballots into these boxes.
Oh ALREADY, of course.
HUGE DUMPS
You’ve seen a video of Ruby Freeman running the same stack of ballots over and over and over, repeatedly through the counter and you still deny she ran the same stack of ballots over and over and over repeatedly through a counter.
You people are genuine Ministry of Truth type nut-cases. The Federals of the State tell you five fingers are being held up, you say “Yes Massa”.
There is literally no amount of evidence that would persuade you.
That's because you have no amount of evidence.
He just referenced the evidence. Are you going to address that, or are you going to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore reality?
What evidence? He 'referenced' something, but no evidence.
In fact, no such video exists, and we know for a 100% fact that this did not happen, because if you ran 100 ballots through a machine 300 times, you'd get 300 votes, which would be 200 more than the number of ballots there are. But the state re-counted, and there weren't more votes than ballots.
" There are already videos circulating of Democrats covering up their tags and dumping in loads of ballots into these boxes. "
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason I hope you like your current employers, because you are stuck where you are -- no legitimate law school will want to hire you after this.
Blah,blah, blah.
Are you as big a bore in person as you are online?
I am beginning to believe that worthless right-wing culture war casualties are never going to like me.
Replacement for the win!
Maybe they should move the drop-boxes to an inside location where they are monitored by an election official, much like it is on election day. I think the reason you don't have citizens inside polling places on election day taking video, is that they are assured those in charge of monitoring those votes are actually doing so.
So, we have agreed upon a solution. Move the drop-boxes inside a precinct location, have them manned by an election official, and have the official check the identification of the person depositing the ballot to make sure it is their own ballot they are submitting. Easy Peasy!
Until then, some citizens are monitoring the drop-boxes themselves in the best way they can without being too obtrusive.
Um, their express goal is to be as obtrusive as possible.
I don't know how it is in Arizona, but elsewhere there are video cameras trained on drop boxes 24/7.
“their express goal is to be as obtrusive as possible.”
Is this a problem? So what if the guilty flee when nobody is chasing?
I think the better word than “obtrusive” is “visible”. Their avowed goal is not to prevent, or even lessen, legal voting, but to make people think twice about illegal ballot box stuffing. The threat is not to intimidate people with the guns, but rather with exposure, with their video recording of people dropping off ballots. The guns are only their for their own protection, and not getting scared away by threats of violence by the other side.
How do we know this? Because people aren’t being prevented from using the drop boxes. If you want to drop 50 ballots in a drop box, they won’t prevent you. They will just turn the evidence that you did so over to the authorities, and you may have to explain to them why you had 50 ballots to drop off. But if you drop off two ballots, they won’t bother turning you in, because what you were doing was probably perfectly legal, and if they did turn you in, the authorities wouldn’t do anything for the same reason. The difference is that, under recently revised AZ election laws, it is almost certain that most of those 50 ballots are illegal.
" The guns are only their for their own protection, and not getting scared away by threats of violence by the other side. "
I dunno. My reaction is the same as when someone has body armor and a rifle at Starbucks ... either they are overreacting or it's a really tough neighborhood.
Is there a documented history of attacks on ballot box watchers that would make a reasonable person think body armor and rifles are appropriate, as opposed to concealed carry?
This is legal, but so not pretend it is good behavior.
Why isn’t it good behavior?
It’s intimidation.
You know; you just don’t care.
It's clearly not, and the court agrees
Oh, it is. It is also within 1A protections.
An act can both be protected speech and intimidating.
Their avowed goal
Which is not necessarily the same as their real goal.
What dropbox in-person monitoring, with photography, amounts to, is a threat to dox online everyone who uses a dropbox. It is completely reasonable to be intimidated by that. Anyone who denies that is lying. No one thinks getting hostilely doxed is reasonable.
I deny it. No, I’m not lying. If people don’t trust the election system, all of this is for nought. And if it’s possible to stuff hundreds of ballots into a box without any idea if it’s up and up, then our whole system is in question.
You will learn that better Americans are increasingly losing interest in what delusional, bigoted, disaffected, gullible clingers think.
Persuade more Americans that conservative ideas -- ignorance over education, superstition over reason, bigotry over inclusiveness, childish dogma over science, backwardness over modernity -- are superior, or continue to be washed away by the liberal-libertarian tide of American progress.
If you can MAKE people distrust the election system, or give them a narrative that allows them to profess to believe that they do, there’s a lot of stuff they’ll believe they can get away with.
I’ve been made to distrust it by people like you - people who think there should be no restrictions on methods; those who believe that if anyone has to get off there butts to show up at a voting place is somehow being inconvenienced.
Fortunately, modern America hasn't much cared what people like I Callahan think for decades. These clingers get to sputter as much as they like, though . . . until replacement!
Hate to break it to you kid, but minorities are moving to conservatism and the republican party in droves.
Pretty soon, all you'll have left is rich, white, middle-aged women.
You want to disbelieve more like it.
. . . those who believe that if anyone has to get off there butts to show up at a voting place is somehow being inconvenienced.
You may be in good faith, but what you wrote above shows credulous misunderstanding of Republican voter suppression tactics. What is going on is only somewhat about suppressing votes by already-enrolled minority voters. It is mostly proactive. It is more about preventing addition to voter rolls of new minority male voters who would likely support Democrats.
Republicans learned that Democrats had ability to organize to enlarge their base. They could do that not just by soliciting turnout from the usual Hispanic and Black voters—who have been mostly women—but also by trying to enroll more men from those groups. Because men in those groups have voted far less frequently than women have, the number of potential new recruits remains considerable.
In response to that alarming prospect, Republicans tailored an apparently varied menu of voter suppression techniques. But make it a point to notice, those techniques all happen to share one feature in common. That feature is to force would-be minority-male voters to present themselves officially at a place where authorities empowered to charge crimes will be present to check proof of identity in person.
That is why dropbox voting is such a Republican bugaboo. Using it enables newly-registered minority males to bypass a key element of Republican voter suppression strategy—to leverage instances among minority male would-be voters of petty or major legal trouble, or merely fear of trouble—to frighten them away from the polls. Republicans know as well as everyone that among minority men, more than among other groups, there are many with troubled histories who protect themselves by a habit to avoid contacts with police.
With dropboxes minority men who owed child support, or who had scoffed at parking tickets, could feel free to vote without risk of that unwanted contact. The way would be open to considerably enlarge the Democratic base. Republicans will say anything to avoid being forthright about that.
Check the comments from right-wingers here. See if you find any which endorse a voting scheme which does not require contact with law enforcement at some point in the process. Ask yourself, given that most legal trouble does not carry a penalty of disability to vote, why would Republicans with good-faith intent to enable voting require cops to be involved? To engender fear to prevent enlargement of the Democratic base is the answer.
To anyone who thinks that sounds far-fetched, I challenge you to endorse a voting management plan which forbids planned police presence at any place used in the process. Make it known that cops will not guard the polls, but only respond from elsewhere to exigent emergencies, in otherwise customary fashion. With a requirement of that sort, far more Democrats would back voter ID. Get out of the way unreasonable security demands which threaten some potential Democratic voters more than they threaten other people, and you will get better Democratic cooperation with plans for better election security.
The complete lack of actual proven widespread fraud is hardly going to make you distrust it so you had to find a different, dumber reason.
Why would anyone give a fuck about somone using a dropbox?
“It is instead a campaign to frighten people away.”
It’s a campaign to stop fraud by a community of people, Democrat voters, who because of the prevalence of low-lifes among their numbers and an ballot integrity process built on the ‘honor’ system find the risk-reward math to favor violating the law. The practice of tracking numbers of ballots introduced to bodies submitting them meets the intent of the law and helps level out the risk-reward math to make the fraud barrier just a little less porous.
I understand that those expecting an vote premium by being politically aligned with vote fraudsters must be disappointed to see the value of this premium diminished by integrity monitors. Cry me a river.
Alleged fraud, consistently unproven, making it a pretext for the creation of a quasi-official alternative partisan election system bolstered by campaigns to harass and threaten existing election officials out of their positions.
They aren’t trying to get rid of legal drop box voting, but rather illegal drop box stuffing. And, there is a lot more evidence that it happened a lot, in AZ, in the 2020 election, than it didn’t. Likely much more than the 10k margin that Biden won the state by (and Kelly’s 20k margin). Keep in mind that between the state Senate audit and the canvas, 7-800k questionable ballots were found, and that doesn’t include the revelations in the 2000 Mules film.
The other thing to keep in mind here, is the the Secretary of State, who enabled much of the apparent election fraud in 2020, and is in charge of this election, is running for governor in this election, and appears to be again trying to skirt recently revised AZ election statutes, including those aimed at preventing just this sort of drop box stuffing. Is she trying to cheat her way into the governor’s office? Maybe not. But you can’t legally drop off ballots for almost anyone outside your household, which means that no one should probably legally be dropping off more than a couple ballots in the drop boxes, period. And that includes using multiple drop boxes, and multiple trips to any given drop box. Ok - lot of Hispanics here, who often live in multigenerational households, so maybe a half dozen ballots total for such a household.
The ongoing claims that dropbox voting is so massively vulnerable to fraud that thousands and thousands of fraudulent votes were cast in 2020 is, in fact, a campaign to end dropbox voting, making it so that weird armed assholes are surveilling you while you do it isn't to catch mules, it's to make it unpleasant and creepy at best in order to discourage their use.
Non - Monitored vote drop locations are ripe for vote fraud.
Everyone and/or Any one that cares about legitimate free and fair elections should demand that they never be used.
They are monitored by CCTV, and cos-playing fantasists who think they're part of an international thriller aren't an effective monitoring group.
Nice snark, but it doesn’t address his point. If you’re for a fair election, where there is a minimum amount of fraud, you SHOULD be against drop boxes. But let’s face it: you’re NOT against it because it overwhelmingly helps the left, and suppresses the right, and the end justifies the means for the left.
I'm in favour of making it easier for people to vote and against lies about fraud to restrict people's voting.
You keep calling these “lies”, but you don’t point to any evidence whatsoever. All this tactic does is signal that you don’t want the debate to continue.
In fact I KEEP pointing to the lack of any evidence whatsoever.
there is a lot more evidence that it happened a lot, in AZ, in the 2020 election, than it didn’t.
You are full of shit.
Where is this evidence? Not even that incredible Ninja "audit," whatever that was, found much to get upset about.
Keep in mind that fewer than 100 questionable ballots were found, that the audit actually found that Biden should have gotten a few hundred more votes than he was credited with, and there are no "revelations" in the 2000 mules film.
By the way, can you take a camera into an ordinary polling place - if there weren't laws about not photographing ballots that wrongly have been upheld, yes.
photograph every voter who enters - yes
then follow them to their cars and photograph their license plates - yes
That legal analysis generates several natural questions?
Do you have experience or training in election law?
Are you a lawyer?
Do you have any advanced degree?
Did you ever attend college?
Has anyone in your family graduated from a legitimate college or university (nonsense-teaching religious schools don't count)?
Did you graduate from high school?
Do you live in a town with more than one traffic signal?
Thank you.
photograph every voter who enters – yes
then follow them to their cars and photograph their license plates – yes
Stupid fucking idea. What about walk-ins? Or transit riders? Or people who catch a ride with a friend?
Anyway, the whole idea of photographing voters and their license plates is an absurdity. What do you hope to prove? How are you even going to show that the guy you claim came in car X actually did? Going to track people to the parking lot, or around the corner where they parked?
Not intimidating - no way, right?
And why bother with people who show up, drop in a ballot, and leave? couldn't possibly be intimidation, could it?
This whole scheme is outrageous, just short of thuggery, and yet the MAGA assholes come here and pretend it's just fine, when they damn well know what the point is, and thoroughly approve.
So what to do to defend yourself. Maybe churches should assemble fleets of clunker vehicles, and organize masked drivers to do drop box runs. Call it, "Trolls to the polls."
Defending yourself is easy - uncover your license plates, don’t drop more than a handful of ballots in the Dropbox, and don’t do it all over town.
No one was shot. No one had a gun pointed at them. Everything is being video recorded. And the only way that there is going to be any violence is if AntiFA is mobilized by the Democrats and attacks the poll watchers.
Sinister assholes who believe utterly unproven rubbish videoing you, writing down your license plate, nothing to worry about, there haven't been death threats and harassment directed at election workers since 2020, nothing to worry about these credible and well-adjusted people potentially identifying you and accusing you of being a mule.
Not utterly unproven. Just ignored. You’re going to have to face reality eventually: our election system has large holes in it, and the more ballot drip boxes and mail-in balloting happens, the bigger the holes.
This is not subject to argument, only denial.
Delusional, bigoted, disaffected, worthless, Lindell-class Republicans are among my favorite culture war casualties -- and the precise target audience of a white, male, right-wing, at-the-fringe blog!
No evidence, just delusions and anger at anger at those who do not indulge them in you.
Not utterly unproven. Just ignored.
You are not ignoring it. You are reasserting it, over and over. But you do nothing to prove it.
That is peculiar behavior. "Crimes are being committed, I say. And someone else has to prove it!"
Not something you hear every day. Except on this blog, of course.
They're not poll watchers. They are thugs.
LOL
Keep pushing, clingers.
It will make it easier for your betters to disregard your pleas for mercy and leniency as the culture war progresses, continuing to push conservatives' stale, ugly, bigoted, nonsensical thinking toward irrelevance in modern America.
Republicans' current efforts to carve out safe spaces and special exceptions for superstitious bigots demonstrates conservatives know their cause is lost; their delusional belligerence seems destined to disincline the liberal-libertarian mainstream to continuing being so nice to culture war casualties.
Bigoted, ignorant, drawling, and superstitious is no way to go through life, and nothing to be rewarded, even as a matter of courtesy.
NAACP as low-key racist terrorist group -- how the mighty have fallen.
Low key terrorists are the worst!
"[t]hose who choose to break the law will be seen as an infiltrator intent on causing [CEUSA] harm.":
WTF does that mean? Does that MAGA idiot think CEUSA has some sort of right to enforce election laws?
Note too that,
Ms. Jennings encouraged supporters and affiliates to gather near drop boxes in groups of "[n]o less than 8 people" to track and deter these supposed "mules."
That's not innocuous observation. It's not her business to track and deter anyone. There is more than a hint of intention to intimidate.
And yes, EV is correct that the judge should have considered the fact that these "observers" were armed, and that they operated in groups.
But hey, Trump judge.
Clearly it intimidates and deters these people depositing ballots.
I mean, if people are taking down their license plates and noting when they deposit a ballot, there's a record. And if these people depositing ballots do it a second, or third, or 4th time, there's a risk that such information will be turned over to state authorities. That's intimidating. They could be prosecuted or go to jail. Just for voting!
Just for illegally voting multiple times.
Oh fuck off.
It's going to intimidate a lot of people.
The voter has no clue why these assholes are photographing and writing down plate numbers. It's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about some stranger doing that.
And you know that. You're just making ridiculous, trollish excuses.
All the more reason that unmonitored drop boxes for votes should be banned.
Then maybe you lefties shouldn’t be such sissies. Drop off your own ballot and walk past. You’re not going to be hurt for it.
Open wider, I Callahan. Guys like me are not done shoving even more progress down your bigoted, half-educated throat. Not nearly.
And you will comply. You get to whimper about it as much as your want, and the Volokh Conspiracy will provide a forum for your whining, but you will continue to comply with the preferences of your betters, clinger.
I know, gosh. Having people have a record of you voting or dropping off a ballot? Sure to intimidate lots of people. I suppose they could ASK why people are video-taping a polling place. But that's scary. Super-intimidating. You might need to vote in person or something instead. But then someone else is watching you vote. And you may even need to show an ID. That's super-intimidating.
You know what else is intimidating? Background checks for firearms. Super-intimidating. Gotta get rid of those too. Those interfere with constititutonal rights, they may intimidate people...being required to present an ID. We can't have anyone afraid of being able to purchase a firearm. Imagine if you had a bunch of people videotaping those who were going to buy a firearm? Oh, wait...that happens in like 50+% of situations anyway? Super unjust.
No, we should be able to just walk up anywhere, request a ballot, and deposit it, anytime, for any election. No need to sign it or anything. That's intimidating too. That's a record. Can't have that. It's intimidating.
Yeah there's no chance these people, who believe crazy shit, won't decide to believe crazy shit about random voters and make them targets, especially of the mules all fail to materialise and they think they're getting sneaky.
“Does that MAGA idiot think CEUSA has some sort of right to enforce election laws?”
Apparently you are unaware that in many, maybe most, states election laws are indeed enforced by complaining individuals. Ballot challenges initiated by citizens are a common and lawful mechanism for challenging bogus candidates or bogus voters. I witnessed one canvassing board review of multiple ballots cast using an non-residential address by people living in other states. The challenging party was an average citizen. Nevada has had problems over the years with tax domiciles who don’t actually live in the state but who vote there to advance the premise that they do. This stuff is common.
According to this article, there was one incident with two armed individuals spotted near a drop box with no real evidence that they are connected to the watchers.
The quoted statement from the article and several related comments leave the impression that all the watchers were armed. This does not appear to be the case.
Being armed in AZ is legal. And you can be assured that many more were/are carrying concealed, than openly. AZ is a Constitutional Carry state. That means no permit to carry, open or concealed, except for in legally defined sensitive areas.
And if they are carrying concealed, you don’t know that they are armed.
Saying someone is/was armed when you have no evidence of that beyond that it would have been legal for them to be carrying concealed borders on being a lie.
Besides, the issue is voter intimidation. Carrying concealed can not be said to contribute to intimidation.
Being armed in AZ is legal.
Guess what.
So is dropping more than one ballot in the dropbox.
Better check that law again Bernard....
Are the "armed" observers a part of the Clean Elections group? Has that been proven? If they were "armed" and not observing, would that be okay? Are you allowed to exercise two separate constitutional rights at the same time?
Also, if government officials can video the citizens as they go about their daily business, why can't citizens record others as well?
I believe the judge ruled correctly. If the drop-box is going to be out in public with no checks on who is depositing ballots into the box, then the public has a right to video the activity at the drop-box.
Election fraud occurs--despite assertions about the "Big Lie." A black, female Democrat in Florida just blew the whistle on the black Democrat machine in Orange county (I think) going by black homes and demanding absentee/mail-in ballots. She said that this has been going on for years. The party knows when ballots are mailed out and makes the rounds.
If it happens in one county, it probably happens in quite a few. This woman probably only spoke out because she lost a close election after ballots were "found."
Link the story maybe then.
She doesn’t need to link to stories. If you are so uninformed regarding election standards and practices, especially practices like those she describes which have been the norm even where illegal since mail in balloting was first introduced, then maybe you should do some of your own searching. You could start your education by participating in the next recount of a mail in campaign in your own or a nearby state that way you wouldn’t have to rely on third hand information.
You could also choose to become less opportunistically delusional.
Believe it or not, events occur whether the press writes about it or not. Sometimes human behavior even follows predictable patterns like taking advantage of weaknesses in the law, such as submitting someone else’s ballot when you know nobody is watching.
Nothing occurs in Sarcastr0's world if not told to him by his mind masters and brain tenders. Nothing.
So why do you think I come here, if I keep my world so closed?
A Martian observing the content of your typical postings likely would say the top two reasons are 1) to play hardcore partisan contrarian while casting yourself as dreamily impartial, and 2) to continually challenge yourself to reduce the average number of posts before your argument devolves into "you suck."
" why do you think I come here,"
It is a great way to waste time. That is why most do.
G'nite all
'We don't need actual evidence that will withstand the slightest scrutiny' has certainly been the mantra of the Big Lie believers.
It wasn’t a big lie. The only lie being told is by the people who deny there is election fraud.
You jumped from the specific to the general there.
This seems to be the source. Second hit for "orange county whistleblower election".
As pointed out in a previous thread, this is a report by serial liar John Solomon.
Solomon is lying that Florida opened a criminal probe into this based on the whistleblower's reports?
A yes an appeal into the objective and nonpartisan judgement of Florida’s government.
Goalposts moved. DeSantis runs Florida; therefore everything the state does is a lie.
You really are utterly delusional.
What were the original goalposts?
Opening a probe doesn’t mean jack.
Pretty naive to think that Florida opening an election probe is not looking pretty political.
You claimed it didn't happen, then claimed it was a lie because the reporter was someone you didn't like, then claimed it still didn't matter that the Florida government was issuing statements because you don't like the current administration.
That's normally called "moving the goalposts", but it might be more accurate to just call it running away and trying to avoid admitting you were wrong.
I asked for a source.
Someone else dug up a story by a serial liar that does not really prove anything LadyTheo posted.
You think I’m the problem here,
You did not address the story at all.
Instead, you made a series of ad hominen attacks and deflections.
If you can do anything to actually address the story, go ahead!
So, yes, you are the problem here.
That would be the safe bet.
As would be if you filled in any other statement after "Solomon is lying that ____________________?"
Would it change your mind?
A.L. linked it in the open thread, I think.
It has as much chance of being true as I do of becoming an astronaut. It's a John Solomon story.
I guess gullible fools who believe Dinesh D'Souza will also beleve this tale.
You'd best start working on some new dismissive talking points: today the Washington Times published its own rendition of the story, not sourced from Solomon.
I read as far as I could before the paywall stopped me.
All it seems to say is that DeSantis' brownshirts want to investigate the story.
That doesn't mean the allegations are true. Oh. and there's nothing illegal about encouraging people to apply for mail-in ballots.
"DeSantis’ brownshirts"
Perhaps I grew up too close to WWII, but I find minimizing the Nazis to be off putting.
WT doesn't use a real paywall. Open the link in a private window or whatever your browser calls it.
Well, at least you've moved from straight-up ad hominem to "nuh uh." Progress.
It was posted here the other day — probably in the Thursday Open Thread. It's a John Solomon special. Some disgruntled former local candidate made wild accusations with Solomon being too much of a joke of a journalist to ask, "How could you know this?"
Well, maybe he trusted the video she made and the documents she supplied to him.
Still would put him miles ahead of the "journalists" at NYT, CNN, or their ilk, that have used far less to publish reports that you, or Bernard, or many others here, took as truth.
Pointing at other media rather than backing up the source you ostensibly believe is a tell.
He's reporting that a woman said something, he shows a video she made, and points to a sworn statement she made to the Florida government. And cites public statements by the Florida government.
I'm not doing the investigation, so I can hardly back it up more than the public statements by the people involved - and neither can you attack it beyond that.
My "pointing at other media" for CNN, etc, is not a defense of Solomon; it's a critique of you and your ilk, that are pretending to discredit something purely through ad hominems. If you can say something about the statements reported, that would be an argument worth reading.
But you can't, so you fall back on the usual battery of fallacies and distractions, completely ignoring your own behavior where you openly and happily embraced stranger accusations from people far less reliable... simply because you disliked the target then.
Lady Theo does not always comment here, but when she does, she prefers to express something profoundly stupid.
When we lived in south Florida, my wife and I used to take advantage of "early voting" opportunities. We frequently observed large groups of seniors from retirement vicilities brought in by bus to vote. In a few instances, the group leaders seemed to be pretty partisan.
Nice story. Did you nod off before reaching the ostensible point?
What's wrong with bringing retirement home residents to the polls?
Bringing people or even groups of people to the polls is, of course, not the issue in and of itself. The issue is when you round up groups of people not exactly in the prime mental acuity of their lives and subject them to partisan propaganda/"recommendations" on how to vote during the ride to the polls. If you recall, instructions to such people along the lines of "punch the second hole to keep your benefits" was what led to the implausibly high number of votes for Pat Buchanan in Florida's butterfly ballot fiasco. It's naive to think that sort of thing doesn't happen routinely -- the weird ballot format simply brought that instance to light.
If you recall, instructions to such people along the lines of “punch the second hole to keep your benefits” was what led to the implausibly high number of votes for Pat Buchanan in Florida’s butterfly ballot fiasco.
I recall something contrary. It happened because people with no training in graphic design butchered the design of that ballot, and for no other reason.
At the time, I worked at a Boston design firm whose internationally famous corporate clients everyone commenting on this blog would recognize. For instance, I was assigned to work on logos, packaging, and typography for Gillette, and doing glossy public-facing materials touting some of the nation's prestigious Boston-area universities.
When the butterfly ballot fiasco came to light, the firm's art directors gave it a look. Every one of them agreed that the graphical errors by themselves would create a massive mis-vote. That, by the way, is a cleaned up paraphrase of the incredulity they actually expressed about the consequential stupidity of the mistake. With that design, nothing else could have happened.
Sorry, no. Looking at the actual ballot, there are big black arrows next to each party's name and candidates, pointing directly and unambiguously at the exact hole that needs to be punched to vote for that party/candidates.
There's simply no cogent argument for confusion, assuming the voter can 1) read the name of the party they wish to vote for, 2) follow the big black arrow to the corresponding hole, and 3) punch that hole.
Which brings us right back to the segment of voters that simply punched the second hole down in blind obedience to incorrect instructions by party operatives who were used to a different ballot design and didn't bother to check the actual ballot that year.
If you recall correctly, no such thing happened. Do you not even understand the words you use? The "butterfly ballot" referred to the design of the ballot — it was a confusing arrangement in which it wasn't clear enough which hole was associated with which candidate. So people who thought they were voting for Gore were actually voting for Buchanan.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Butterfly_Ballot%2C_Florida_2000_%28large%29.jpg
Another example, as if more were needed, that we have legal rights to do many things we really shouldn't.
This seems right.
It was right back in 2008 with the Black Panthers too.
People on this blog tried to argue it meant Obama was not the legitimate President.
But the GOP had not yet sunk that low.
Given the various woeful electoral denial spectacles of 2004, 2016 it is fair to say that the Democratic Party has sunk that low, and they cannot seem to blow their ballast even to make periscope depth since.
On a more uplifting note, Star Trek did profit from the publicity of Stacey Abrams’ election denial, and perhaps she could find a new career path professionally dissembling for an honest living by being an actor in a work of fiction.
Why would she need a new career? Haven't you seen the recent reports? Her and her comrades have banked millions from their non-profit election denying grift.
Why do these people who supposedly hate the rich and want to eat them do so much disgusting stuff to try and be them?
No way you believe Dems in 2004 are anything like the GOP regarding 2020 as continues to this day.
Maybe you wish it were so, but you can’t in good faith actually argue that.
The Dems in 2000, 2004, and 2016 were lying for partisan gain.
The Patriots in 2020 were telling the truth for the sake of justice.
Why not?
A majority of Democrats still claim that 2000 and 2016 were stolen elections, and that Bush and Trump were not legitimately elected. A plurality claim the Diebold CEO used Ohio to steal the 2004 election. And in every case, there were lawsuits trying to overturn the election. In every case, there were Democrats attempting to prevent to counting of the legal votes.
Got a source for your claim?
JFC, Sarcastro. I've listed cites multiple times, and every time you rely on your "I've never heard of that" selectable ignorance to pretend it never happened.
YouGov, NBC, CNN, Rasmussen, ABC, even WashPo all have articles on the topics. I mean, you can just go to Wikipedia and browse the links to find more references.
The few minutes I was willing to spend found this (referring to 2016):
"Two out of three Democrats also claim Russia tampered with vote tallies on Election Day to help the President – something for which there has been no credible evidence."
2018, not today, of course, so can't say about 'still'. FWIW, just from what I have heard from friends, denying the legitimacy of elections is bipartisan, far more common than is good, and generally unsubstantiated.
People here used to argue that Obama wasn't a legitimate president if the sun rose in the morning.
Maybe a little OT but a week ago Thursday I posted a comment about how I live in a condo in a university town with a lot of students renting in the complex. My next door neighbor got five mail in ballots addressed to the former renters in addition to his own; all unsolicited. I mentioned I also got an unsolicited mail in ballot, as I did in 2020.
Several libturds here started bashing me and said I way lying and mail in ballots were only sent to those who request them; the libturds also said I should contact the supervisor of elections office about this.
Guess what libturds I did contact the supervisor of elections and got some cock and bull story about the formal policy posted on their web site was that only those who requested mail in ballots got them mailed and there was some kinda mistake in these mailings. Of course the county heavily favors dems and the supervisor of elections is a dem. They did say they would get back to me about why I was mailed a mail in ballot but so far nothing.
Keep in mind that the Dem Secretary of State, who is in charge of cleaning up the voting rolls, is running for governor this election. She kinda said that she tried, but it didn’t work. Or something like that. She isn’t very articulate, and is now actively avoiding the press, despite many of them supporting her. Her much more articulate (former TV news anchor) is pushing her refusal to speak with the press against her, as well as her refusal to debate. Latest polls show her Republican opponent up by 11 points over her. Can Hodges, the Dem, still pull off a win, with all of the illegal ballets she didn’t prevent from being sent out? Election night is going to be interesting.
Libturds.
Well now I gotta believe your objective understanding of events!
" Maybe a little OT but a week ago Thursday I posted a comment about how I live in a condo in a university town with a lot of students renting in the complex. My next door neighbor got five mail in ballots addressed to the former renters in addition to his own; all unsolicited. I mentioned I also got an unsolicited mail in ballot, as I did in 2020. "
The likelihood this is an accurate report resembles the likelihood that the Pirates and Orioles will play in this year's World Series.
Carry on, election-denying clingers. Cry in your MyPillows all day and all night, if that is how you wish to spend your time awaiting replacement by your betters.
The fun will be when someone shoots someone at a poll and we get an exchange of gunfire, a real battle. Which side do you think will draw first blood? Or will it stay at the mutual-display-of-genitals level until it dies down?
That’s easy. Some of the poll watchers were wearing ballistic plate body armor, and carrying AR-15s on slings. That usually indicates combat veterans – who have been shot at, shot back, and survived. With 20 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq, there are a lot of them out there, and they are much more likely Republican any more, than Democrats. They aren’t going to start a firefight, but show that they intend to finish it, by how they dress, move, and are armed. The Dems are unlikely to be able to mobilize combat vets against them, because that would be attacking fellow combat vets.
That mostly leaves AntiFA and their fellow travels. Haven’t seen them yet in AZ this election. They have been training these last two years, and have upgunned and uparmored, since Lefty pointed his (illegal) Glock at Kyle Rittenhouse, lost his bicep as a result, earning him his nickname. What they don’t have is military training and combat experience.
The other thing that they probably still don’t have is a good understanding of self defense or use of force laws. Chasing down Rittenhouse, after he had killed his first attacker, put them in the position of being the aggressors, and thus ineligible for self defense immunity, while Rittenhouse, running for his life, from his pursuers, was privileged to use deadly force in self defense. In this case, the side that shoots first loses what self defense expert Andrew Branca calls “innocence”, and, thus the right to use deadly force. These laws are very similar to the Rules of Engagement that combat vets are used to obeying. They are unlikely to shoot first, or even appear to be ready to shoot.
Your bloodlust is kinda messed up.
Stop wanking over Rittenhouse.
How far you’ve fallen. That was probably the most insane thing I’ve ever seen that you’ve typed.
" With 20 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq, there are a lot of them out there, and they are much more likely Republican any more, than Democrats. "
More likely Republicans? Makes sense, since we stopped drafting and started taking downscalers lacking better options. Also explains why America's military hasn't won a war in 75 years, despite staggering taxpayer-provided resource advantage.
Hey, have you seen the modern Democrat military? Full of homo's, trannies, black racists, and other assorted degenerates.
The kind of weak morons' that won't make it back from serving their Zionist masters overseas.
Good thing for you the Volokh Conspiracy in general and Prof. Bernstein in particular disregard antisemitism from Republicans, conservatives, racists, and gay-bashers.
Zionists? Are these those Jews that own porn?
Tell us more about the Jews, BCD.
It is remarkable. We use the resources ourselves, and get bad results against the third world. We give the same resources to Ukrainians, and even without much training, they use them to beat the crap out of Russia.
It only makes sense if you assume U.S. weapons design and procurement are awesome, but something about U.S. military leadership and combat performance kind of sucks.
It is surprising that a military primarily staffed by shambling hayseeds from failing communities can’t perform like the military that drew from a broader population with a draft?
No, there's another possibility, which is that you're completely wrong. We did not get "bad results against the third world." Not with the military. We did get bad results at trying to create stable, self-supporting governments in third world countries, but that has nothing to do with the military.
Also, you seem to confuse offense and defense.
No confusion. What affects military outcomes in the U.S. is defense. What affects military outcomes abroad is offense.
On that basis, take note that the decision to stockpile nuclear weapons can go either way. By themselves, in the absence of policy, such weapons have neither offensive nor defensive valence.
The rule holds, but gets complicated to interpret in the cases of pre-existing allies and treaty obligations. The military fate of England in 1940 was linked inexorably to the military fate of the U.S. later. Reluctance to get into WW II was founded on a misestimate of that link by some, which Germany's ally Japan clarified for many of them at Pearl Harbor. That clarification explains why most of the war resistance disappeared so quickly thereafter.
The rule is not complicated in the cases of purpose-built alleged allies, such as former Afghanistan or former South Vietnam. Those the U.S. propped up to enable offense. As the world well understood, post-colonial alleged nation-building was a dodge to convenience military attacks. To the extent would-be nation-building fails, that is a failure of military policy, not a failure of statesmanship.
There is of course an open question whether U.S. offensive military escapades abroad can ever advance the national interest. To try to answer that would take us far afield. But it gratuitously confuses consideration to assert that U.S. international interests, pursued abroad by military means, are thereby rendered defensive.
Alas, that does nothing to prevent a judgment by many that maintenance of that confusion is a sine qua non of U.S. politics. Is that the impulse which brought you to your assertion that I am completely wrong?
I don't know why you think any of what you just longwindedly wrote is responsive to my rejection of your claim that "U.S. military leadership and combat performance kind of sucks."
The U.S. did not lose Vietnam, or Afghanistan, because of sucky combat performance.
Which would be relevant to absolutely nothing; I was talking about Ukraine, not Afghanistan or Vietnam. You had contrasted Ukraine's military success with the U.S.'s alleged lack of military success. But Ukraine is waging a defensive war, which is significantly easier than winning an offensive one.
I just realized who he looks like!
Separated at birth?
https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2022/06/24/supreme_court_abortion_80032_c0-173-3776-2374_s885x516.jpg?c856c853938dc8e11badd1a1f2fa33d24b0decbc
AND
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/f_troop_tv_51-h_2016.jpg?w=1296&h=730&crop=1
"legal dropbox voting"
Or illegal dropbox voting, as in Wisconsin
Why not admit the judge is a trump appointee?
Trump himself had great disdain for treating the judiciary as non partisan. Isn't it noteworthy that his judges routinely rule incorrectly and with obvious bias toward conservative causes?
Hey quick question for you. When there is a politically charged case in front of SCOTUS, how does everyone already know which way the case will most likely be decided?
First, LOL on a judge being named Liberty. (Liburdi. Whatever.)
Second, stop. No. Don't do this. Trump denigrating judges as illegitimate because they make rulings against him doesn't suddenly become acceptable when anti-Trump people do that.
I saw today outside my public library a warning that unless you want otherwise and express it you can be filmed and used publicly at library events you attend.
So, certainly, all related voting practices should be filmable. People vote at the library so there you go.
The harvesting and delivering (or not) of absentee ballots is really the only type of election fraud that has any real chance of affecting an outcome, short of actually hacking the machines (which would be caught in a recount or a random cert if the system includes scanned paper ballots). Therefore I think the law as it now stands in North Carolina makes the most sense. No drop boxes. Absentee ballots may only be turned in by the voter herself, or a family member, and the law specifies exactly which relations are allowed. And if the person turning in the ballot is not the voter, ID must be shown and the person must sign a form. NC had some real, documented recent cases of absentee ballot harvesting, but not anymore.
The instant state of AZ has a 75' rule, doesn't it? So the watchers with cameras would theoretically stay 75' away from the person using the dropbox. I'm making an inquiry here. I don't see any problem with this info-gathering. I'm with the judge.
I think there is a big difference between saying there is a First Amendment right to observe dropboxes and saying large armed groups get to make a show of photographing and videoing voters’ license plates.
Frankly, polling places are sensitive places. There is no right to be armed in the vicinity of a drop box.
And that alone should have decided this case. This is no more a First Amendment case than the Capital riot was.
A dropbox is simply a structure in a public space. (I'm extrapolating; I don't know if that's true everywhere.) It is not a "polling place."
Are there any polling places that can’t be described as “simply a structure in a public space” and hence not a “real” polling place?