The Volokh Conspiracy
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Ninth Circuit Partly Affirms and Partly Reverses Judgment for Planned Parenthood Over Secret Recordings
"Journalism and investigative reporting have long served a critical role in our society. But journalism and investigative reporting do not require illegal conduct."
From Planned Parenthood Fed'n of Am., Inc. v. Newman, decided today by the Ninth Circuit (Judge Ronald Gould, joined by Judge Mary Murguia and District Judge Nancy Freudenthal):
Defendants-Appellants [Center for Medical Progress, David Deilen, and others] … used fake driver's licenses and a false tissue procurement company as cover to infiltrate conferences that Plaintiffs-Appellees … hosted or attended. Using the same strategy, Appellants also arranged and attended lunch meetings with Planned Parenthood staff and visited Planned Parenthood health clinics. During these conferences, meetings, and visits, Appellants secretly recorded Planned Parenthood staff without their consent. After secretly recording for roughly a year-and-a-half, Appellants released on the internet edited videos of the secretly recorded conversations.
Planned Parenthood sued Appellants for monetary damages and injunctive relief. After pre-trial motions and a six-week trial, Appellants were found guilty of trespass, fraud, conspiracy, breach of contracts, unlawful and fraudulent business practices, violating civil RICO, and violating various federal and state wiretapping laws. Planned Parenthood was awarded statutory, compensatory, and punitive damages as well as limited injunctive relief.
Appellants argue that the compensatory damages awarded against them are precluded by the First Amendment and that Planned Parenthood did not show that Appellants violated the Federal Wiretap Act…. We affirm the awards of compensatory and punitive damages, but we reverse the jury's verdict on the Federal Wiretap Act claim and vacate the related statutory damages for violating the Federal Wiretap Act….
"[G]enerally applicable laws do not offend the First Amendment simply because their enforcement against the press has incidental effects on its ability to gather and report the news." Cohen v. Cowles Media Co. (1991). {We express no view on whether Appellants' actions here were legitimate journalism or a smear campaign because even accepting Appellants' framing, the First Amendment does not prevent the award of the challenged damages.}
In Cohen, a campaign worker, Mr. Dan Cohen, provided two newspapers with information damaging to his candidate's opponent. Cohen revealed the information on the condition that his identity as the source be kept secret. However, the newspapers subsequently published articles revealing Cohen as the source of the damaging information, and Cohen was fired from the campaign. Cohen sued the newspapers seeking compensatory damages under a state promissory estoppel cause of action. He argued that the newspapers' publication of his name was a breach of promise, which caused him to lose his job and lowered his earning capacity. Id. In reasoning that the First Amendment did not bar the damages, the Supreme Court explained that "[i]t is … beyond dispute that '[t]he publisher of a newspaper has no special immunity from the application of general laws'" and "enforcement of such general laws against the press is not subject to stricter scrutiny than would be applied to enforcement against other persons or organizations."
We recently reiterated this holding, stating that "the First Amendment right to gather news within legal bounds does not exempt journalists from laws of general applicability." Animal Legal Def. Fund v. Wasden (9th Cir. 2018). In Wasden, we examined an Idaho statute criminalizing entry into or obtaining records of an agricultural production facility by force, threat, misrepresentation, or trespass; obtaining employment with an agricultural facility by force, threat, or misrepresentation with intent to cause harm; or entering and recording inside a non-public agricultural production facility without consent. In response to facial First Amendment challenges, we held that the provisions criminalizing entry and recording violated the First Amendment because the entry provision was overbroad and the recording provision was a content-based restriction that was unable to survive strict scrutiny. Conversely, the provision criminalizing obtaining records did not facially violate the First Amendment because it protected the facility owners' property rights from legally cognizable harm. The employment provision, meanwhile, complied with the First Amendment because the Supreme Court had previously held that such speech was unprotected by the First Amendment, and the provision was not aimed at suppressing a specific viewpoint. Wasden, therefore, repeated that facially constitutional statutes apply to everyone, including journalists.
Wasden was not novel within the Ninth Circuit. More than fifty years ago, we held that journalists could not use subterfuge to gain entry into a private home and secretly record an individual suspected of committing a crime. See Dietemann v. Time, Inc. (9th Cir. 1971). We noted that "[t]he First Amendment has never been construed to accord newsmen immunity from torts or crimes committed during the course of newsgathering. The First Amendment is not a license to trespass, to steal, or to intrude by electronic means into the precincts of another's home or office."
Adhering to Cohen, Wasden, and Dietemann, we repeat today that journalists must obey laws of general applicability. Invoking journalism and the First Amendment does not shield individuals from liability for violations of laws applicable to all members of society. None of the laws Appellants violated was aimed specifically at journalists or those holding a particular viewpoint.
The two categories of compensatory damages permitted by the district court, infiltration damages and security damages, were awarded by the jury to reimburse Planned Parenthood for losses caused by Appellants' violations of generally applicable laws. As required by the Supreme Court in Cohen, and our court in Wasden and Dietemann, Appellants have been held to the letter of the law, just like all other members of our society. Appellants have no special license to break laws of general applicability in pursuit of a headline.
Appellants are incorrect in arguing that the infiltration and security damages awarded by the jury are impermissible publication damages. {The infiltration damages, totaling $366,873, related to Planned Parenthood's costs to prevent a future similar intrusion. They included costs for assessing Planned Parenthood's current security measures and exploring potential upgrades, reviewing and upgrading Planned Parenthood's vetting of visitors and attendees at conferences, monitoring social media for potential threats, hiring additional security guards for Planned Parenthood's conferences, and improving the badging and identification systems at the conferences. The security damages, totaling $101,048, related to Planned Parenthood's costs for protecting their doctors and staff from further targeting by Appellants and from foreseeable violence and harassment by third parties. The security damages included costs for physical security and online threat monitoring for the individuals recorded in the videos that Appellants released. }
In Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell, the Supreme Court held that a public figure could not recover damages for emotional distress or reputational loss caused by the publication of an ad parody about him absent a showing of falsity and actual malice. However, the facts before us are distinguishable from Hustler Magazine. The jury awarded damages for economic harms suffered by Planned Parenthood, not the reputational or emotional damages sought in Hustler Magazine.
Further, Planned Parenthood would have been able to recover the infiltration and security damages even if Appellants had never published videos of their surreptitious recordings. Regardless of publication, it is probable that Planned Parenthood would have protected its staff who had been secretly recorded and safeguarded its conferences and clinics from future infiltrations by Appellants and third parties. Appellants' argument that, absent a showing of actual malice, all damages related to truthful publications are necessarily barred by the First Amendment cannot be squared with Cohen. In Cohen, the Supreme Court upheld an economic damage award reliant on publication—damages related to loss of earning capacity—even though the publication was truthful and made without malice.
Our decision does not impose a new burden on journalists or undercover investigations using lawful means. From the beginning of their scheme, Appellants engaged in illegal conduct—including forging signatures, creating and procuring fake driver's licenses, and breaching contracts—that the jury found so objectionable as to award Planned Parenthood punitive damages. Journalism and investigative reporting have long served a critical role in our society. But journalism and investigative reporting do not require illegal conduct. In affirming Planned Parenthood's compensatory damages from Appellants' First Amendment challenge, we simply reaffirm the established principle that the pursuit of journalism does not give a license to break laws of general applicability.
But the court held that defendants weren't liable under the Federal Wiretap Act:
At trial, Planned Parenthood alleged that Appellants recorded Planned Parenthood's staff forty-two separate times at conferences, lunches, and health clinics without their consent in violation of the Federal Wiretap Act. Planned Parenthood argued that the criminal or tortious purpose behind these recordings was to further Appellants' civil RICO enterprise with the ultimate goal of harming or destroying Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood also contended that Appellants' civil RICO scheme served the same purpose: harming and destroying Planned Parenthood.
The jury agreed with Planned Parenthood and determined that Appellants had illegally recorded Planned Parenthood staff in all forty-two of the pled instances. The jury awarded Planned Parenthood damages based on these recordings, and, pursuant to the jury's findings, the district court awarded statutory damages to various Planned Parenthood entities for these same violations.
{The jury awarded Planned Parenthood approximately $100,000 in compensatory damages related to the Federal Wiretap Act claim, and the district court awarded statutory damages of $90,000. Additionally, the jury awarded Planned Parenthood $870,000 in punitive damages for claims of fraud, trespass, breach of Maryland wiretapping law, and breach of federal wiretapping law. The jury did not specify which claims the punitive damages related to.} …
The Federal Wiretap Act generally prohibits any person from intentionally recording an oral communication. One exception to this broad prohibition is that a person may record a conversation in which he or she is a party unless the "communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State."
A recording has a criminal or tortious purpose under § 2511(1) when "done for the purpose of facilitating some further impropriety, such as blackmail." This criminal or tortious purpose must be separate and independent from the act of the recording. Put another way, the independent purpose must be "essential to the actual execution of an illegal wiretap … [and] directly facilitate the criminal conduct." The recording party must also have the independent criminal or tortious purpose at the time the recording was made.
With this understanding, it is clear that Appellants' violations of civil RICO could not have served as the criminal or tortious purpose required by § 2511(2)(d). Planned Parenthood alleged that the criminal or tortious purpose of Appellants' civil RICO violation was to destroy Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood similarly argued that the purpose of the secret recordings was to further Appellant's civil RICO scheme, which sought to destroy Planned Parenthood. However, § 2511(2)(d) requires that the criminal or tortious purpose be independent of and separate from the purpose of the recording. Planned Parenthood runs afoul of this requirement by reusing the same criminal purpose—furthering the civil RICO scheme to destroy Planned Parenthood—as both the purpose of the civil RICO claim and the independent criminal or tortious purpose of § 2511(2)(d).And, Planned Parenthood's argument is circular: according to Planned Parenthood, the civil RICO conspiracy is furthered by the recordings, and the recordings themselves further the ongoing civil RICO conspiracy. Such reasoning is not permitted by § 2511(2)(d).
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If I unwound this correctly this means that the opinion that Newman violated civil RICO has been struck down, but the rest of the judgements against them stand.
What I am not OK with is that Newman is considered a "journalist" when he is clearly an activist attempting to destroy and organization that is a vital (and sometimes the only) source of health care for millions of women across the country. This was never about uncovering a story kept hidden. It was all about manufacturing a story to bring around that political end. As far as I'm concerned they are getting off easy.
Well, except for the "manufacturing" part, sure. It actually WAS about uncovering a story kept hidden.
I mean, we're not talking CGI and deep fakes here. They recorded real conversations and events.
And then edited them to make a quite different tone and implications than the full tapes did.
Can you point to any edits that actually made a difference?
I mean, the entirety of the recordings were available, IIRC, and the highlighted segments had the same meaning and context when presented in whole as when presented individually.
Specific examples would be useful for understanding what you consider to be the problem.
https://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/
Plenty more where that came from.
“At one point in the unedited video (which was also released by the group),”
And there your whole argument goes up in smoke. Right there. Nobody who thinks they’re misleadingly editing also releases the unedited video. Nobody.
Releasing the whole, unedited video, is basically unheard of in mainstream “journalism”, these people were MORE ethical than your average journalist, not less.
Veritas correctly surmised that enough people wouldn't bother with the full video and would go with the initial narrative, while taking the released video as validation, regardless of the deceptions it revealed.
Congrats on being exactly the kind of rube they counted on falling for it, Brett.
Umm, what? Brett is the one who watched the unedited video (and was able to call you out on that basis.)
He's saying that merely by releasing the video, Veritas *could not* have deceptively edited anything, regardless of the comparisons being made and finding plenty of deception.
If you want us to respect you, at the very least you could not insult us by blatantly lying about what Brett actually wrote just up-thread.
Something for you to look into: https://spencerlearning.com/ultimate-phonics/solutions/remedial-reading-phonics-program-struggling-readers.html
Neither of you are right.
1. Project Veritas isn't involved in this except as an amicus. Easy mistake, though, since they use the same techniques.
2. No, I haven't watched the raw video, I was merely aware that they released it, and noted that this was mentioned in Sarcastr0's own link.
3. It's certainly possible, violates no known laws of physics, to deceptively edit a video despite releasing the unedited video. But as a practical matter, nobody who sets out to, or understand themselves to have deceptively edited a video, releases the unedited footage. So, as a practical matter, we know that the defendants here didn't think they'd engaged in deceptive editing.
Or else they'd have followed normal journalistic practice, and kept the unedited video secret to prevent anyone from judging for themselves.
Sarcastr0, your link doesn't establish deceptive editing. If you want to see actual deceptive editing, check out a Michael Moore documentary some time. Bowling for Columbine, for instance: In it, Moore stitches together pieces of a half dozen speeches Wayne Lapierre gave, (I was at a couple.) to produce a fictional speech he never did give, and presented it as a real speech. That sort of thing is SOP for him, and is REAL deceptive editing.
What we have here is just plain vanilla normal editing, that produces implications a 'fact checker' doesn't like. So they did what 'fact checkers' normally do when they don't like something: They implication and opinion checked, instead of fact checking.
Bret: Or the scene where he pretends like he'd been standing outside LaPierre's house for hours just being ignored, when he never even rang the doorbell.
If you want us to respect you, at the very least you could not insult us by blatantly lying about what Brett actually wrote just up-thread.
It's not really fair to expect someone to stop doing the only thing they know how to do.
Wait, I'm sorry, but there is exactly one place in that multipage "factcheck" where it claims that context is missing: That Nucatola emphasized that most clinics were only selling aborted baby body parts to "break even" and that it is to get money to "to provide a service the patient wouldn't get" [otherwise].
The rest of it is outsiders commenting, not criticism of the original video or its editing. Are you really trying to claim that the entire three hour video was deceptive because the highlights portion released to the press only covered one of her statements justifying the sales of baby tissue, rather than all of them?
OK, then: I'm curious what you think of TV news or newspaper reporting, where three hour videos like this one are reduced to 10-seconds or less of soundbites, or maybe two or three sentences of 'quotes'. Are those equally deceptively edited?
No new goalposts.
You are the one who attempted to move the goalpost by linking to the "fact check" which, as Toranth correctly points out, does not actually show any deception, but rather quotes several 3rd parties, not from PP or Veritas, speculating that there's probably no profit, or that what PP charges is "reasonable".
Toranth asked for deception, I found some, and he said 'that's not enough deception.'
He didn't find no deception, he just changed the standard for what counts as enough deception.
I guess he fooled you, but he didn't fool me.
No, you didn't. There's nothing in your link that shows "deception"
Stop lying, Sarcastro. I asked for deception, and you linked to a post that described no deception.
That's not moving goalposts, that's you flat out lying about what the linked post says. I doubt you bothered to even read it before linking to it, but in case you did, feel free to cut and paste the specific part the proves that Veritas was deceptive in their editing of the video. Any place where the full video gives a completely difference view of the dialogue than the highlight version.
Go ahead, we're waiting.
I asked you how it was deceptively edited, and you provided evidence that it wasn't.
I have moved no goalposts; I have called you out for your failure to support your claim. And then, additionally, I called you out for you bizarre double-standards and absurd nitpicking.
So, we can try again: Do you have any evidence that the video was deceptively edited? Not "showed only one of several denials", not "failed to add additional context", but edited in such a way that the claim presented was actually false in the full video's context?
You suggest that these are not "journalists", even though they conducted investigative reporting for (in their view) the public good. Their reports are primarily undercover video of statements, conversations, and activities that actually occurred.
You then suggest that they were "edited" to alter or misrepresent the facts, but provide no explanation for your assertion. The videos do depict the actual people, and depict them in context.
By contrast, with respect to both your judgement about who is a "journalist", and about editing videos to wildly distort the truth of the report, I have exactly two words for you:
Katie Couric
Complete bollocks. Nearly every journalistic investigation with audio or video media involves releasing edited versions of the investigation. It's only here where the investigator is an unfavored group by major media that they are being held to the standard of non-edited videos. And it's irrelevant anyway, since they actually released unedited videos as well that affirm the legitimacy of the edited versions.
What I am not OK with is that Newman is considered a “journalist” when he is clearly an activist attempting to destroy and organization
Sounds like all of the leftist media and tech cabal trying to destroy Trump. The difference, all the abortion reporting, is factual, while the other was all fake.
You need to shore up your definition of "journalist".
"Planned Parenthood alleged that the criminal or tortious purpose of Appellants' civil RICO violation was to destroy Planned Parenthood. "
Um, how exactly is attempting to destroy Planned Parenthood a criminal or tortious purpose? After all, they weren't planning on destroying PP by planting a bomb, or anything like that; They were planning on doing it by turning public opinion against PP by publicly revealing adverse information about PP, such that people would abandon PP, cease donating to them, and legal changes hostile to PP might happen. None of these things are criminal purposes, nor is it a tort to harm somebody's reputation by revealing truthful information.
Now, if they'd planned to offer to refrain from publishing the recordings in return for compensation, THAT would have been a criminal purpose, extortion. But as it is, I'm not seeing the criminal or tortious purpose here. People are entitled to try to destroy Planned Parenthood by turning public opinion against it, aren't they?
The purpose of speech is to have an effect on others' behavior. To destroy something is a regular political goal of both sides. Dozens of expensive, gated communities are filled with mansions of effective operatives in this business.
Whether they lied and that caused some harm is a separate issue.
Before you say, "Yes speech should be held to account for mere distortions!", in my state, a swing state, before the 2020 election, "someone" ran TV ads with a black screen, somber music, and "32 Million Unemployed" on it.
I assume you want lawsuits or jail for them, too?
Me? I was saying the exact opposite: That trying to "destroy" PP was in no way, shape, or form, a "criminal or tortious purpose", and thus COULDN'T be a proper basis for a RICO suit.
Great so we can now start tossing journalists in jail for receiving classified materials.
There's literally thousands of videos floating around on the internet where everyone from private individuals to new orgs secretly record another party for some journalistic purpose and they are never punished or lightly slapped. It's not even just outright criminals but also mean people or those who flout sjw conventions. What makes this so different, other than killing babies is considered sacred?
People should worry about getting what they wish for. In other cases, tearing at corporations, fraud to get hired was touted as something deserving of a statue, not punishment, by these same people.
Ah who am I kidding. The power hungry chuck contradictions into the top of their echo chambers, the talking heads lap it up, the hoi polloi run around as if they are philosophical savants who have latched onto some Deep Truth of Reality, to be forgotten and flipp-flopped when it gets in the way of the next item of concern to the powerful.
The Comedian sits on the edge of Molok’s bed in the middle of the night, crying. “It’s a joke. It’s all a joke.”
Planned Parenthood good. Applying the law comes second.
PP is a political organization with no business receiving taxpayer money. Imagine if the RNC or catholic church was given a direct federal or state mandate to provide education or some government services. Let independent doctors and organizations that actually focus on medicine get more of that reproductive services pie. If PP wants funding theres plenty in holyweird.
No, it's a healthcare organisation that's been targeted for destruction by politicians, not the same thing at all.
Any court decision that doesn't go the right's way is outcome-oriented!
This trend continues to be lame as hell. Fucking engage with the opinion and what the law is, not your own victimhood narrative.
'Fucking engage with the opinion and what the law is, not your own victimhood narrative.' Seems perhaps you need to follow this advice, and have you clique heed it as well.
Where did I say an opinion was reached because the judge was outcome oriented? Or are you strawmanning too hard to tell?
The law exists to protect liberal elites. The outer party comes 2nd. The plebes, not at all.
Just a point the 9th Circuit got wrong. Cohen wasn't fired from "the campaign" for being exposed as the one who revealed derogatory information about the Democratic candidate for Lieutenant governor. He was fired from his permanent job with an ad agency.
1960 - "Speak truth to power"
2022- "Use power to suppress truth"
Leaving aside the liability side of things... infiltration and security "damages" is a very weird concept. Those aren't losses caused by the acts in question. They're voluntary steps to try and protect against future actions. If I break your window entering your house to steal things, you get to recover the cost to replace the window back where it was, not install upgraded windows.
I actually decided to wade through the predictable caterwauling by the usual suspects in the comments section to see if anyone had noted the same thing. I understand a fairly liberal measure of actual damages in cases where economic damages are uncertain, but I can't think of another example of "our damages are in the amount of money we could have spent to prevent this harm, but didn't, and now did."
The relevant line in the opinion reads, “The infiltration damages, totaling $366,873, related to Planned Parenthood’s costs to prevent a future similar intrusion.”
And before commenting on this I read down through the comments to see if anyone else found this as bizarre as I did. The “intrusion” didn’t create the “need” to prevent “intrusions”. Planned Parenthood did that by saying and doing things (selling “baby parts”) that others would consider disreputable. A business doesn’t get to charge the first thief that breaks in to steal its money with the cost of installing a vault even if it can collect a significant amount of money from such a thief.
Silly Conservatives. You think they would learn that in the 9th Circuit (and other Liberal Circuits), protections for liberals do not apply to Conservatives.
The 9th Circuit’s principle – that even journalists have to obey generally-applicable laws – is well-established in theory, although of course we can think of situations where it’s not applied in practice, or applied inconsistently (getting and publishing leaks of classified info, illegally possessing gun parts as part of an effort to show the laxness of gun laws, and the like).
I don’t know if the 9th Circuit applied the principle correctly, but it’s fine on paper.
I mean, going onto property without the consent of the owner, running sting operations, etc. – these are the province of the police, not private vigilantes trying to do the job the police would be *all too happy* to do. Or if the behavior was legal, they could have gotten a Congressional oversight committee to use stings and so forth to get at the truth, in aid of proposing new legislation. No need for private parties to rush in and do the government’s job.
I recall a major network news crew fraudulently got jobs at a supermarket and secretly recorded what they claimed were unhygienic practices (though they released only edited clips, not the whole of their recordings. Highly suspicious). They lost a lawsuit because of having to obey the same laws as everyone else.
IIRC, though, the jury awarded damages of $ 1.
What was done here differs from private parties who pretend to be interested in renting apartments in an attempt to sniff out racial bias how?
Also, I am impressed by Planned Parenthood’s self-restraint in only suing about trespass, RICO, etc. Faced with the release of fake news about their operations, based on misleadingly edited footage which the publisher must have known were false – there’s actual malice right there! But PP had enough compassion to overlook this fault by their adversaries and refrain from suing for defamation.
Take your tongue out of your cheek!
Dunno this person, but he doesn't sound any different than the usual "progressive" shill. Are you sure he doesn't really need to take his tongue out of the vacancy between his ears?
I suspect they were making a snarky comment about how PP didn't sue for defamation because the claim they were selling baby parts *isn't false*.
Is it my imagination that they released the unedited video? Or that mainstream 'journalists' typically refuse to do this?
As I've said, there's a reason they don't call the show "600 Minutes"; EVERYBODY edits their video. Something you know quite well.
Not everybody releases the raw video so you can judge the edits for yourself.
Sarcrapstr0 and Queenie attempt to equate editing many hours of footage down to something digestible with deceptively editing footage. Of course both things are possible at the same time, but one can happen without the other. All editing is not deceptive editing. Prove your point, for once Sarcastr0. Jeez.
That, if true, would seem to violate the Establishment Clause. What exactly are you referring to?
Catholic charities basically run on government money.
That is not the Church.
Without sucking at the taxpayer teat AND being such an accomplished freeloader, how could that church afford so much hypocritical opulence?
Anyone who thinks the catholic church directly runs Catholic organizations just because they are called catholic and Pope Francis as a direct line to a red phone in your local St. Mary's Orphanage is profoundly uneducated. But let's just give you that..
How bout a deal? We'll trade you straight up for the trillions progs get per year for taxpayer indoctrination centers/public 'education', woke enforcement, support for holyweird, direct funding for PP and other leftwing orgs, for whatever the catholic church makes 'running' affiliated organizations . Total, not even just whatever comes from taxpayers.
Veritas lies with editing, Brett.
I'm sure you want to tu quoque about that a whole bunch, but if you stay on subject, you are going to find you have trouble refuting that this is propaganda not journalism.
Just because you like it doesn't mean it's facts.
“Whataboutism” is a convenient shield to hide hypocrisy.
Again, HOW does Veritas lie with their editing?
Your supposed proof you linked above turned out to disprove that assertion. Can you actually provide a specific instance in which the video presented a false claim or statement? The entire thing is still available online, so you can easily just give the timestamp if writing quotes is too difficult.
And remember: Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's lies.
No, it’s just run by the church.
Not the same thing.
They've been providing charity services for millenia, long before government insinuated its fingers into the situation, dragging its religion-purifying fire along with it.
Nobody said the pope directly runs the local orphanage, though I’ll bet if the local orphanage came to his attention for doing something he didn’t like there are probably channels through which he could put a stop to it.
And I at least have not said I oppose funding orphanages and soup kitchens, even if they’re Catholic. Just pointing out that they do receive government funds in response to your original claim that they don’t.
Please point out where I said the catholic church doesn’t get a dime from government funds in any possible way direct or indirect that anyone can interpret or imagine.
By any sensible measure Planned parenthood and its agenda (not just access but indoctrination in its viewpoint that abortion is wonderful and 75 genders is the superior way to live life) is far more directly funded and promoted than the catholic church is by the government.
What you said was, "Imagine if the RNC or catholic church was given a direct federal or state mandate to provide education or some government services," implying that they're not. But the catholic church, through its charities, is in fact given lots of government money to provide the government service of caring for the poor.
As for Planned Parenthood, abortion and trans issues are a small part of what it does. It provides other types of health care to poor women as well. So it, and the Catholic church, are actually similarly situated -- both of them get government money to provide government services, despite objections by some to their ideology.
Well, the trans issues are a small part, trivially, because actual "trans" people who aren't just cross dressers are a tiny fraction of the population, albeit a noisy tiny fraction.
The abortion end of things? They engage in accounting gimmicks to hide the fact that it's most of what they do. You show up looking for an abortion, the consult is one service. The flier you pick up in the lobby is a second service. The abortion is one service. And the advise on what to do after the abortion is one service.
So, you go there just for an abortion, nothing else, they say abortion was only 25% of what they did.
In fact, PP's 'market share' for most women's health issues is down in the 1-2% range, while they're doing over a third of the nation's abortions. They could disappear completely and hardly be missed for anything BUT abortion.
Brett, nope. I’m a former PP board member. There are rural areas in which PP is the only provider of women’s health care services. There are places in which if PP disappeared it would take almost all local womens health care services with it. You’re just making stuff up (or listening to someone else who made it up).
Under the Hyde Amendment government money cannot be used for abortion yet PP gets lots of government money. Indicating it does a lot besides abortion.
Notice you didn't challenge my point about the accounting gimmick used to claim abortion is a small part of PP's business.
"Under the Hyde Amendment government money cannot be used for abortion yet PP gets lots of government money. Indicating it does a lot besides abortion."
Yeah, building rental is something besides abortion. Utilities are something besides abortion. PP has plenty of expenses besides abortion, even if abortion is their main thing.
Remember this? When told they couldn't get any funding for clinics that did abortions, the abortions had to be under a separate roof to avoid the fungibility I referenced above, what did PP do?
They decided they'd rather go without the funds.
They'd already kicked out any affiliates that didn't want to offer abortions even if they were locally available.
Look, you're not fooling that many people: PP is an abortion provider that does other stuff on the side, and everyone knows it.
I didn't challenge it because my point was not to fact check every misstatement you made; rather, to respond to the main point about what PP does. And, respectfully, I've seen far more PP financial statements than you have, having been on the board and all, and you're full of it.
K2, are you saying that NBC News falsely reported the financial circumstances, and that Planned Parenthood did not correct them?
Also, can you tell us where Planned Parenthood is the only "women's health" provider in an entire "rural area"? What are you calling "women's health", anyway? How big is this "rural area"?
I've heard of rural areas with distant from hospitals, but you seem to be making a claim above and beyond that, and some quick internet searching doesn't show anything like what you say.
Was it charity . . . or a recruiting campaign?
Either way, the church today is a freeloading parasite sucking greedily at the taxpayer teat.
Taking an occasional break from grabbing public money, it has been vividly revealed, to conceal and facilitate the sexual abuse of children in an effort to preserve its personnel, reputation, and riches.