The Volokh Conspiracy
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Chemerinsky and Marcus Go Another Round Re Antisemitism at Berkeley Law
Re the controversy over nine student groups banning speakers who think Israel should exist.
The Jewish Law Students Association can refuse to invite Holocaust deniers. The Black Law Students Association can refuse to invite white supremacists. I may not like the choices they make about what viewpoints they invite or not invite, but that is their First Amendment right.
What is not allowed is excluding a speaker based on religion or race or sex or sexual orientation. And that has not – and I am confident will not happen at Berkeley Law. To be clear, the law, and campus policies, distinguish between word and deed, expression and action. To date the offending student groups have issued statements, declarations, and intentions. Those are constitutionally protected forms of expression. To date, no student has been excluded, cancelled, disinvited, or interrupted. To date no student has been denied the right or the ability to express themselves, to exercise their freedom of speech. Should that happen—and we are working hard to make sure it does not—that would represent a cross-over from expression to conduct and that would be subject to serious discipline.
Marcus:
if he had reached out, Dean Chemerinsky would stop denying that "no speaker has been excluded on account of these or any other views." With due respect to the good dean, this is absurd. Mr. Chemerinsky and his Berkeley Law colleagues now acknowledge that these nine groups' bylaws "impermissibly exclude a large majority of [Berkeley's Law] faculty from participating in the work of these organizations, including [him]." Since he acknowledges that this is impermissible, he should stop permitting it. More to the point, he should stop funding it.
In addition, we all know what happens when campus groups announce "no Zionists"– Jewish students either stop participating or they suppress that part of their Jewish identity to be accepted. Dean Chemerinsky suggests he will act once a Jewish speaker is turned away or a Jewish student is formally excluded. Once the bylaws were formalized that ship sailed. By not acting now, the damage is done.
And if student groups take further discriminatory action by excluding Zionists in the future, there will be no way for Chemerinsky to know that they have done so. It is not as if they will tell the dean that they are doing what he has described as "impermissible."
Comment: Parsed closely, Chemerinsky is arguing that the students have a First Amendment right to ban "Zionist" speakers, but no such right to ban or discriminate against "Zionist" students. I'm not sure that's right for reasons I expressed in a previous post, but let's assume it is. In practice, there would be only one way for a student group to ban "Zionist" speakers (i.e., speakers who believe that Israel should continue to exist), and not in practice discriminate against Jewish speakers--given that, in practice, campus groups' hostility to "Zionists" has fallen entirely on Jews. That would be to ask all speakers, Jewish or not, to sign a pledge that that don't think Israel should exist. Would *that* be ok? Would the campus groups be willing to require such a pledge, including for law firm recruiters who would like to speak with them?
Indeed, I think this should, perhaps must, be the compromise. If the law school determines that it's legal and within school policy for clubs to ban speakers who believe Israel should exist, that policy needs to be transparent, and enforced uniformly. No Dean Chemerinsky or other faculty who support Israel's existence at club events. No law school recruiters who support Israel's existence. No speakers on abortion rights, trans rights, or anything else within the clubs' purview unless they avow that they support Israel's destruction. These groups have made the policy, make them live with it in a way that won't be selectively enforced against Jewish speakers.
As an aside, Dean Chemersinsky is incorrect that expressing discriminatory "intentions" is protected by the First Amendment. It's illegal for an employer to announce that he won't hire a protected group, for a landlord to announce that he won't rent to a protected group, and so on, regardless of whether they follow through if they get applicants from those groups.
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Still UC Berkeley, still no one cares.
Maybe that's the problem. Can we get some federal judges to declare they will not hire any clerks who were members of law school associations that ban speakers for supporting the existence of some country?
If some students wanted to form a Nazi Law Students' Association, they would have the same First Amendment rights as these students. Would the Dean's reaction be the same, or would he come out and condemn them in no uncertain terms, even if he qualified the condemnation with a statement about First Amendment rights in a public institution?
Or a Trump Law Students Association, or a No-Pronoun Law Students Association, or a CO2 Is Dandy Law Students Association. The list is endless.
As endless as the depths of Dean Chemerinsky's entirely hypothetical hypocrisy.
Apparently what actually happened isn't really that bad, since you have to invent hypotheticals to fulminate against.
It's called a comparison, and it's used in legal circles all of the time. Now you either have an argument against the above, or you don't. I'll assume the latter.
What's to argue against? How the dean would react to a hypothetical situation that didn't happen? Who cares?
Or, they ask no one, and only ban speakers who've previously made explicitly Zionist public statements. Such a policy might ban a higher proportion of Jews than non-Jews, but probably not over 50%. And certainly it would ban a higher number of non-Jews than Jews.
You’d be banning 99.999% of the population, if you use the activists' definition. It is ‘zionist’ to believe that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. It is ‘zionist’ to believe the ones alive today shouldn’t be gassed too.
I am yet to see anyone calling themselves ‘antizionist, not antisemitic’ who was not in fact either a Nazi or a useful idiot of the Nazis. Those are the people behind this ban, and what they mean to ban is everyone who doesn’t want to kill every Jew.
Ok... well, we'll know if that's their definition if they start banning 99.999% of the population, won't we.
Yes, see my comment below to David B. The dean was clearly talking about giving them enough rope.
Well, it’s been their policy for a while, and they clearly aren’t banning 99.999% of speakers… so maybe it’s time to reassess?
Some of those groups are statutorily protected, not constitutionally, except in the roundabout way Congress' power to legislate is constitutional.
Silence concerning the insurrection hearings. Silence with respect to the insurrection trial, pleas, etc. Mostly nothing about Trump (whose letter to the House committee released today was goofy enough to resemble something from Josh Blackman). A half-dozen misleading expositions, however, on this Berkeley issue. A bunch about whether Yale is sufficiently hospitable to reality-disdaining gay-bashers, racist vote suppressors, and other bigots. The usual array of cherry-picked red meat (guns, Muslims, tech-hates-clingers conspiracies, quotas) for the QAnon-MAGA crowd.
What a bunch of un-American, cowardly, partisan hacks.
And yet you keep coming back. Be sure to let your therapist know.
I see the Adderall shortage is giving you problems.
Come on, Art, this sort of whataboutery is idiotic when the clingers do it, and idiotic when you do it.
There is in fact a resurgence of antisemitism in modern politics, and denying it is what the people we oppose do. Stop letting the far right infiltrate the left under cover of fake 'antizionism'. Do your bit to oppose all forms of racism, not just all forms except antisemitism. The latter is indicative of people mouthing words but not understanding, and those people are not self aware enough to realise they're also racist.
"Stop letting the far right infiltrate the left under cover of fake ‘antizionism’."
Are you under the impression that anti-Semitism has to infiltrate the left? The left has had a strong strain of anti-Semitism since at least the days of Marx and Lenin.
Silence about the Danchenko/FBI trial.
"As an aside, Dean Chemersinsky is incorrect that expressing discriminatory "intentions" is protected by the First Amendment. It's illegal for an employer to announce that he won't hire a protected group, for a landlord to announce that he won't rent to a protected group, and so on, regardless of whether they follow through if they get applicants from those groups."
But all this may imply is that current anti-discrimination laws happen to violate the 1st amendment. Which isn't exactly a bizarre notion.
This is also inaccurate. DB seems unable to correctly convey the message the Chemerinsky stated, despite quoting it.
He specifically differentiated between issues related to viewpoints, and issues related to protected categories (such as race, sex, etc.). Despite DB's repeated attempts at conflation, his desire to make Zionism a racial category does not, in fact, make it so.
At a minimum, in order to say someone is incorrect, you have to have a base measure of honesty in understanding and relaying what was said; which is lacking.
Not making a cake for a gay wedding sounds like more of a viewpoint. Not making a cake for a gay person sounds more like a protected category.
Not making a cake for a gay wedding is conduct based on a viewpoint.
Why would anti-discrimination laws violate the First Amendment? They primarily ban conduct, not speech. And the speech they ban is speech integral to the conduct they ban, and thus not protected by the First Amendment.
The 1A is also about freedom of association, and anti-discrimination laws often run counter to that.
Only the rights of interpersonal and expressive association are protected, and that is the exception rather than rule in applications of anti-discrimination law.
Yeah, like I said: Violates it.
By that logic, all anti-discrimination laws facially violate the Constitution. Seems absurd to me.
Well, remember that the 14th amendment pretty specifically applies only to state actors. ("No state shall... nor shall any state") Private discrimination isn't in any way a constitutional issue, so the desire that people not discriminate doesn't actually expand the government's legitimate reach any.
But it's worse than that: The 14th amendment DOES apply to state actors, making it illegitimate for them to condition their own actions on the basis of race, or any other irrelevant criteria. (The 14th amendment isn't specific to race, remember.)
Remember the reasoning the Court used to prohibit discrimination against males who wore skirts, essentially? Now apply it to the government's own decisions in enforcing anti-discrimination law. The government itself is conditioning its own actions on race, by the same reasoning, when it enforces these laws!
The simplest way for the government to obey the 14th amendment is to simply not condition anything at all on race; Just enforce normal laws against theft, assault, and so forth, without fear or favor.
Anti-discrimination laws do not violate the 14th Amendment so long as they apply equally to all races, religions, etc. In your skirt example, men were treated differently than women.
In other words, they do violate it. Because you know damned well they don't so equally apply.
No, I do not know that. Evidence?
You've been living in a cave, maybe? Affirmative action as practiced today would be flatly impossible if racial discrimination against whites wasn't treated as different from racial discrimination against blacks.
Only if yiu woke up yesterday, Brett. Looking at history and even today, Underrepresented groups getting more representation is a legit aim.
Of course, you persist in believing The Bell Curve so for you underrepresented groups often deserve it. But for most people that’s not true.
Affirmative action is limited to specific applications in some circumstances (employment, college admission). Even if such applications violate the 14th Amendment (*), they would be just other examples of your skirt case. They don't call into question either the facial validity or the vast majority of equal application of anti-discrimination laws.
(*) Such applications must overcome strict scrutiny to be permissible.
"Underrepresented groups getting more representation is a legit aim."
But we're talking means here, and having a 'legitimate' aim, an end, doesn't make illegitimate means suddenly acceptable.
Either racial discrimination is illegitimate, or you've got a lot of explaining in enforcing anti-discrimination laws. Can't have it both ways.
But you can have it both ways if you pretend that it's only discrimination if the people it hurts are white.
Duh, you might not like it, but that’s the whole point. Whites aren’t underrepresented, so they don’t get the benefits of affirmative action. This was basically the entire conceit of the civil rights movement. Without it, key laws like the VRA would’ve been impossible.
To answer your question explicitly, racial discrimination is completely legitimate. Racism, i.e. believing that one race is inherently superior to another, is illegitimate. Tribalism is also illegitimate, which is what Equal Protection protects against.
Bingo.
Isn't flag burning conduct? Or kneeling during the Star Spangled Banner?
FWIW, I do NOT believe we should be able to ban these activities with laws.
They are expressive conduct, protected because mere offense to the ideas expressed is not a sufficient reason for the government to outlaw such conduct. In contrast, anti-discrimination laws are justified by the government's interest in insuring access to public accommodations.
Who is Marcus?
Surely not the ASSOL guy who worked as a Trumper for a couple of years.
"Kenneth L. Marcus is chairman of the Louis D. Brandeis Center for Human Rights Under Law and Distinguished Senior Fellow at George Mason University Scalia Law School’s Center for Liberty & Law"
OK, it's the ASSOL Trumper . . . one of the guys working to deprive Israel of America's support.
Well, Ms. Kirkland has taken a break from her morning session of kiddie porn to offer further irrelevant comments calumniating decent and normal Americans. Ms. Kirkland did violate her solemn oath to mention South Texas College of law whenever she mentioned Professor Blackman, so I decided to do her job for her.
I hope that Ms. Kirkland’s afternoon sessions with her various catamites will allow her the time to post additional immaterial and pointless comments.
And I’ll end with a shout out to the American patriotic heroes who sauntered into the den of iniquity (i.e. the Capitol Building) on 6 Jan. and made little girly-boys like Kirkland cry on his pillow at night.
Shoving progress down the throats of right-wingers never gets old for the liberal-libertarian alliance, and mocking half-educated, superstition-addled, roundly bigoted conservative culture war losers is sometimes as enjoyable as it is warranted.
Carry on, clingers. Please tell us more about how you guys are going to reverse the half-century tide of the culture war, and start being competitive at the modern marketplace of ideas, any day now.
David:
"Parsed closely, Chemerinsky is arguing that the students have a First Amendment right to ban "Zionist" speakers,"
Not at all. He is saying that we need to give them enough rope before they can hang themselves: we know their definition of 'zionist' is vile antisemitism, but we have to let them demonstrate as much since there are other possible meanings (and since we can be bloody sure these idiots will screw up and make the racism obvious, it's worth waiting).
Why is it so shocking that student groups might have speaker policies that impact some professors based on their viewpoints? That seems healthy and inevitable if we're going to lean into free speech on campus as much as y'all are normally all over.
Jews can be bigots too. Something to ponder.
Like I said, if that’s their policy, make them be transparent and apply it consistently and uniformly. This would also clarify for those who doubt that they really mean to exclude everyone who thinks Israel should exist what they mean by ”Zionist” and “occupation of Palestine.”
Make the group be consistent? Under what theory of authority?
Seems to me clubs can be as hypocritical and inconsistent as they wanna be.
Really? You think they could ban all and only black speakers under the guise of being anti-reparations, and just call it "inconsistent enforcement?"
I agree ... Zionist here is a transparent proxy for the vast majority of Jews. The specific definition you are using does not matter ...
Pretext is pretext. This is not established as pretext.
I don’t like it much, but Im not sure I like them being shut down either.
Oh my god stop gaslighting me already!
Man, I've been waiting for an opportunity to say that for so long. :b
Not always. If a club bans only Jewish speakers who support Israel, while permitting non-Jewish speakers who support Israel, that strikes me as discrimination against Jews.
Yes, if the inconsistency is discrimination against a protected group. But that seems more specific than Prof. Bernstein’s call.
Bernstein previously argued not permitting pro-Israel speakers equates to discrimination against Jews. I think his categorical claim is wrong but might be correct in some cases. So, in this post he suggests the school adopt a policy where an organization is required to have their speakers affirm they don't support Israel.
I'm not sure what to make of his suggestion. On the one hand, the burden normally falls on the plaintiff to prove disparate treatment which would argue against his suggestion. On the other hand, the school might think the disparate impact on Jews justifies the suggested policy somewhat similar to how Title VII permits disparate impact actions against employers. And yet on the other hand (if I were a rich man), it might be viewpoint discrimination if this suggestion only applied to groups who ban pro-Israel speakers rather than all groups who ban speakers for any specific viewpoint (and such a policy sounds like a mess to administer to me).
Those at the school, some of them Jewish, largely say this is not an issue requiring intervention. Prof. Kerr has been pretty quiet about I, but posted the letter.
Prof. Bernstein’s take is that of an outsider who rather likes to pick these fights. With students, which makes me a bit uncomfortable.
But beyond all of that, Chermerinsky seems to have the right of it - this is not an act that can legally be called discrimination under current law. Hence the other stuff being thrown at the wall like consistency.
Maybe it is pretext. Would not surprise me, actually. but I see a lot more table pounding and appeals to incredulity than establishing that.
His silence speaks volumes = Professor Kerr
It has for some time. I sense his movement away from this flaming shitstorm occurred roughly as Josh Blackman moved from featured player to the repertory cast.
"Those at the school, some of them Jewish, largely say this is not an issue requiring intervention."
I've looked at polls of Jews in America: Something like 10% of them hold views regarding Israel that we wouldn't shy from calling "genocidal" if held by somebody who wasn't a Jew. It's somewhat similar to the way a non-trivial fraction of whites in America favor whites being legally discriminated against.
Ah yes, the 'Jews are doing it wrong' trope.
That's pretty antisemetic, Brett!
Every group has self-loathing members, I don't see why Jews would be any different.
Deciding you know who the bad Jews are because you know what the proper relationship American Jews must have with Israel is the bad part.
Not “pro-Israel.” Any speaker who “have expressed and continued to hold views … in support of Zionism, the apartheid state of Israel, and the occupation of Palestine." These phrases individually and collectively mean “believe Israel should contact mute to exist.” Lots of people who are in common parlance anti-Israel, like AOC or Bernie Sanders, don’t reject Israel’s existence.
OK. I don't think that clarification changes my analysis.
" we all know what happens when campus groups announce "no Zionists"– Jewish students either stop participating or they suppress that part of their Jewish identity to be accepted."
Exactly right. A chilling effect.
I'm not sure that's true. As Eugene pointed out, an all-comers policy (i.e., must not bar any speaker) by the university likely is permissible under Christian Legal Society (noting of course, it makes little sense to have such a policy).
I'll give credit to Bernstein for casually redefining "Zionist" as "believes Israel should continue to exist" and "doesn't believe Israel should continue to exist" with "antisemitism". However, he really missed an opportunity to not take the minor final step and equate "antisemitism" with "Nazi".
Surely his points would be that much more compelling if he automatically declared a Nazi anyone who opposed Israel occupying and annexing territories currently (and formerly) occupied by Palestinians.
Home & Away
Shirts & Skins
Cops & Robbers
Settlers & Indians
Jews & Nazis
You have to be one or the other in order to play.
The precise phraseology is support of “Zionism, the apartheid state of Israel, and the occupation of Palestine.” I’m not going to go over the same points as in previous threads, but this means “think Israel should exist and not be replaced with Palestine.” I’m not sure what You think the phrasing means when coming from a Palestinian nationalist group that makes no bones about the fact that it thinks Israel has always been an apartheid state and that all of Israel is occupied Palestine, but whatever it is is wrong.
If you're basing your unusual interpretation of "opposing Zionism" on a specific phraseology and the identity and political beliefs of the speaker then you need to include that context. Otherwise you're just trying to redefine the world for your own purposes.
And even the phrase you include on its own, opposing "the apartheid state of Israel" doesn't mean Israel should cease to exist any more than South Africa ceased to exist. But it does mean opposing the designation of Palestinians as second class citizens. And "the occupation of Palestine" again could easily mean going back to the 1967 borders.
And even if one accepts your parsing of the phrase it doesn't imply antisemitism. I think Ukraine should be returned to its pre-2014 borders, that doesn't make me anti-Russian. I imagine there's Crimean Tatars who want Crimea as an independent country with the Tatars repatriated, they're not anti-Russian or anti-Ukrainian. In fact, most of the world supports Ukraine in it's current war against Russia, but they're not doing it because they're anti-Russian, they're doing it because they support Ukraine.
Were the Jewish Zionists who founded Israel anti-Muslim? It's an error of perspective to assume the Palestinians and others who oppose Israel, even the ones who want to "wipe it off the map" do so from a motive of antisemitism.
Imagine Israel had instead been created by a colony of enterprising European Catholics attempting to reclaim the holy land. Do you suppose the surrounding Muslim populations would be much more accepting?
“If you’re basing your unusual interpretation of “opposing Zionism” on a specific phraseology and the identity and political beliefs of the speaker then you need to include that context.”
I had two previous posts on the issue that included that context.
“And even if one accepts your parsing of the phrase it doesn’t imply antisemitism.”
That is correct. But if you want to exclude everyone who thinks Israel should exist from events that have nothing to do with Israel, you will knowingly be excluding almost all Jews. And if you combine that with ONLY excluded people who think Israel should exist, and not worrying about, say, China's persecution of the Uighyurs, or Iran or Saudi Arabia's or Syria's human rights violations, or Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but the ONLY country whose behavior bothers you enough to make such a rule is Israel, the odds that you are not antisemitic diminishes significantly.
And as of I have pointed out many times, wanting Israel to cease to exist in favor of an Arab majority Palestine is worse than merely antisemitic; except in the rare case where advocates of this position state that they only would accept such an outcome if the rights of the Jewish population were guaranteed, it is genocidal. There are 7.5 million Jews currently living in Israel. The Palestinian nationalist position is that the only priority is that it be replaced with an Arab-majority Palestine. If Jews are willing to leave voluntarily, great. If they are willing to stay and be subject to the whims of the majority, some (but not Hamas and its allies) are willing to accept that. But, and here is the key but, if the Jews are not willing to leave or live as a hopefully tolerated majority in an Arab majority Palestine, the vast majority of Palestinian nationalists are fine with some combination of murdering and expelling them. Again, many may think that one of the first two options is preferable, but the third option is also fine. The third option, few would doubt, is by far the most plausible, likely the only plausible, way that Israel will turn into “Palestine.” Which in turn, like I said, means that the Palestinian nationalist position is genocidal. Now, there may be some folks out there who would be ok with Gaza going its own way, and Israel merging with the west bank to found a Jewish majority Israel-Palestine binational state in which there is no law of return and no return of Palestinian refugees, and everyone has exactly the same rights. This is a highly unrealistic scenario, but if that is one’s position, one can easily be neither antisemitic nor genocidal in intent. But precious few of those who say “Israel needs to stop being the state of the Jewish people” have this in mind, they ONLY want an Arab Muslim state.
I agree that it's a terrible position Israel finds itself in with regards to Demographics and Democratic representation. Though it's also a problem of it's own making. Its hard to see any justification of Israel's current practice of expelling Palestinians in the territories and then constructing settlements on the now vacated land. A practice which predictably creates a very hostile Palestinian population.
Otherwise, regarding the "double standards" you presented regarding Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Israel.
Surely, one of these things is not like the other? The first set of countries are all generally regarded as rivals to the west, if not outright hostile. Israel on the other hand is largely considered a friendly western nation. We tend to hold people like us to higher standards because we realize their bad behaviour reflects badly on us.
The political pressure against South Africa was quite intense, on account of the leaders of South African being white people of European descent.
The reason white people of European descent criticize Israel more than other nations isn't because of antisemitism. It's because they identify with Israelis and they believe people with shared values should be doing things that immoral.
There is no Palestine and the Arabs were given their own land. The Palestinians in the West Bank are technically Jordanians as they ceded sovereignty to Jordan, which lost the territory to Israel in war
The hamas charter explicitly call for the complete elimination of Jews in Israel
As Bernstein has repeatedly stated, the school speaker ban includes anyone who has expressed support for israel
That's not a redefinition.
Well, you could say a Zionist believes Israel should continue to exist in its current form, a Jewish state. You could be against Zionism because you believe Israel should continue to exist, but not as a Jewish state. That's my personal belief, and I think a lot of other American Jews think the same, although I could be wrong. The whole "deny a part of one's Jewishness by denying Zionism" argument perhaps applies to some American Jews, but certainly not all of them.
By that logic I can rename my toaster "Israel" and say, "Hey, I like toast, so, I certainly think Israel should continue to exist. Just not as a Jewish state."
Your comments usually make a lot more sense than that one.
I can think of a lot of people who think Israel should continue to exist while opposing Zionism.
Zionism means believing that Jews should have a national homeland in Eretz Yisrael. Israel is that. So if you want israel to exist, you are a Zionist.
If you want Israel to exist in its current form, as a Jewish state. You and Nieporent seem to be arguing that is the only way Israel could be as a country. Why? Because that is what you think Israel should be? Your argument seems circular. Why must it be a Jewish state? Because it's a Jewish state.
Well, imagine you are a Canadian, and someone told you that Canada can continue to exist, but we are going to attach California, Oregon, and Washington to it, but retain the name Canada. Canadians will now be outnumbered in every way, but, hey, it's still "Canada," right?
Israel was founded, and approved by the UN, to be a homeland for the Jewish people. Exactly what that entails is open for debate. But the other side, such as it is, says, "let's get rid of the Law of Return, allow millions of Palestinians to 'return' (never mind few have ever there) to Israel, and see what happens." Umm, no.
Now if you were to argue that Israel should become a "state of all its citizens" but not favor Jews in any way otherwise, including for immigration, that would go against the purpose for Israel existing to begin with, but I suppose that would still be Israel. But that's not really what the debate is about. Every so often SJP or whatnot will talk about equal rights for Arab Israelis, but once you pin them down this ultimately means a law of return for the Pal refugee descendants, which would create an Arab majority. That's what it's almost always ultimately about, the Arab majority. Even when someone says, "Israel must give citizenship to WB Arabs," and you say ok, then what, will you be happy with the 62-38% Jewish-Arab split? Nope, then you must have the refugee return. And of course you must have Gaza, even though there is no plausible way to incorporate Hamas run Gaza into Israel, nor is there any reason it should be incorporated, given that there are no Israelis there now at all. So again, it's all about having a Palestinian Arab (and Muslim) majority, or, more important NOT having a majority Jewish state. I can explain why I think they think this is the bottom line, but it doesn't really matter why...
Also, would Arab Israelis be better off if Israel just emphasized Israeliness with no Jewish component? So that, most likely, there would be a merged school system in which Hebrew was emphasized and Arab students no longer primarily learned in Arabic and studied Arab culture? Because countries like the US with no ethnic basis tend to emphasize assimilation to the majority culture,
Yes, interesting, thanks for the reply.
The Palestinians want the land free of Jews
And there are plenty of non Jews who are Israeli citizens and serve in the government
You can’t call Israel an apartheid country given they have a greater percentage of Arabs in the govt than blacks in Congress
That is Zionism — unless by "Israel should continue to exist" you tendentiously mean, as Alpheus W Drinkwater claims to, that there should be something called Israel that has no resemblance to Israel.
I don't really care what it's called. Is that your issue with my argument?
There's another alternative, which I don't think would count as Zionist, which says, I think Israel should continue to exist, mostly because it already does. And it should remain at minimum Jew-friendly. If that means officially Jewish, maybe that's ok as long as it doesn't imply oppressing Arabs (which, so far it does seem to imply that, but maybe it doesn't have to). And certainly, the Jews don't have a God-given right to that particular spot of land, obviously. But they're there, so it's more theirs than anyone else's.
I short, I think you can think that Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish state and still not be Zionist.
Hamas wants a Jew free Israel
Palestinians belong in Jordan
Plenty of Arabs in Israel
Your ignorance is stunning
We can move Israel to, like, Greenland or something, if you're not willing to play nice.
Fuck off, Nazi scum.
Marcus: "...Zionists (Jews by any other name)..."
I think this sums up in a nutshell the problem with Marcus' position. Perhaps one could make the case that these particular groups are taking a pretextual antisemitic position, but as a general rule being anti-Zionist on its own does not make one antisemitic. In my opinion.
It is not at all surprising that the leftist commenters systematically refuse to accept the obvious, i.e., that the Palestinians students and fellow travelers are overwhelmingly anti-Semitic.
Tips on bigotry from right-wingers, conservative, Republicans — whose electoral coalition is built on a foundation of vote-suppressing racists, revolting gay-bashers, white nationalists, obsolete misogynists, downscale Islamophobes, Proud Boys, white supremacists, disgusting immigrant-haters, Oath Keepers, chanting anti-Semites, and various other disaffected clingers, insurrectionists, and bigots — are always a treat.
For all their bigoted pathology, though, these clingers are nothing that replacement isn't already solving in modern, progressing-against-their-wishes America.
Fuck off
These particular student groups might be anti-semitic. I'm not arguing against that because I don't really know. But they aren't anti-semitic just because they are anti-Zionist.
I suspect that many of these students are antisemitic. But not all of them. It's like looking at the legislative history. Yeah, there are some real shitheads in Congress like Jim Jordan who vote for things for bigoty reasons. But you don't interpret a law based on the motivations of its most extreme supporters.
Since the statement isn't overtly antisemitic, the fact that some of its supporters are antisemitic is actually evidence that it shouldn't be interpreted that way. It had to be toned down in order to get the broader support that it got.
It's still relevant if a significant number of the supporting students are antisemitic. It cautions against a strategy of appeasement. But it's also relevant if a significant number of the students are not antisemitic. Not only did they work to moderate the statement, but they prove the existence of a cohort that is extremely frustrated with Israel, enough to join forces with extremists.
This is about rights, Don. I don’t like the group or it’s behavior, but I believe in even those I don’t like getting rights.
Where does the across the board rule come from. Surely if a club has a 1st ammendment right to choose not to invite Nazis it has one not to invite Nazis to its keynote address but choose to let them give talks in their "understanding villains pov" series or to make exceptions for powerful political figures (as some orgs did for ppl like Trump).
But I agree this makes distinguishing pretextual excuses hard.
Israel and those who support Israel are welcome to continue huddling with evangelicals, Trump, the religious right, the Republican Party, and American conservatives . . . but should be prepared for the relatively predictable consequences of aligning politically with the losing side of the American culture war.
Anti-abortion absolutists, fans of limitless special privilege for religious claims, gun nuts, and others are going to pay that price. If Israel and its supporters want to follow that course, be my guest . . . it's your funeral, clingers.
Fuck off you anti semite
Calling pro Israel trump a racist white supremacist is the ultimate sign of a complete moron
"We think its wrong for long-displaced people to reclaim land from historical long-term interlopers.
"Wait. Are we talking about the middle east or north amecrica?"
We should assume the weakest definition i.e. "wanting the Jews to have a nation in Palestine."
To see the trouble with even that, imagine it were "wanting the Uyghurs to have a nation in Florida." There's nothing anti-Muslim about thinking that the Uyghurs have no inherent claim to Florida and that giving them Florida might cause more problems than it solves.
Also, you can "want the nation of Israel to continue to exist in roughly its current form and to remain Jew-friendly" without necessarily "wanting the Jews to have a nation in Palestine."
Yes, this is always the problem. Because to the people doing the banning, 'Zionist' means 'part of the ZOG', or some other virulently antisemitic equivalent. Normal people don't realise that, because that's not what the word means in normal discourse.
Let's be quite clear here: the PA is a Nazi regime, and its supporters - as opposed to those genuinely concerned about Palestinian rights - are neo-Nazis.
Hell are we talking about the palestinians or the jews.
"To see the trouble with even that, imagine it were “wanting the Uyghurs to have a nation in Florida.”"
Ah, except that the Uyghurs are 100% non-native to Florida, while Jews have been living in the area that is Israel today for thousands of years, Israel historically existed as a country in the same location for some time before. So it's kind of a crazy example to pick.
How about, "To see the trouble with even that, imagine it were "wanting the Seminole to have a nation in Florida." Better, imagine it were, "The Seminole already having a nation in Florida, and not wanting it abolished."
Perhaps “wanting the Seminoles to have a nation in Florida” might be the better analogy. After all, it’s entirely possible to object to Indians wanting to have any special sovereign or tribal status, to oppose their claims to having any connection to the land of the United States, to believe they are invaders who ought to be deported en masse to India where they belong, and to object to terms like “native American” that tend to suggest they have some basis for being here, all without in any way being any-Indian as such, and without objecting to Indians personally so far as Indian religion, ethnicity, etc. is concerned.
One can likewise object to colored people’s illegal occupation and usurpation of others’ lunch counters, drinking fountains, bathrooms, etc., without being in any way opposed to them personally.
Fuck off, Brett. You can't score points talking about Jews and Israel when you want to gas every Jew.
We’ll have to ask the Israelis if they’d be ok with a “nation” in the style of the Seminoles’. (Or the Palestinians, to fit the analogy better.)
But that’s not the point. There’s no moral imperative to recognize the Jews’ claim to Palestine over the Palestinians’. It’s very close to a religious argument.
In fact, this gets to the core contradiction in David’s rhetoric. He practically thinks Zionism is an aspect of Judaism, or at least of Jewish identity. If non-Jews could be Zionists, it weakens his claim that it’s antisemitic to exclude Zionist speakers. (He doesn’t go so far as to explicitly say that a non-Jew can’t be Zionist, but it’s implied in a lot of his logic that at minimum, such a gentile is adopting Jewish beliefs.)
Then he says that Zionism is the only way to ensure the safety of the Jews, so if you aren’t Zionist, you’re effectively pro-genocide.
Logically, that means you’re pro genocide unless you adopt Jewish beliefs.
Is it some sort of evangelical maneuver? I think it’s a misplaced wedge that’s far more likely to push people away from Israel than towards it, which is why I’m out here arguing against his logic. Israel will be better off if there’s a legitimate middle ground than if there isn’t.
And that's not metaphorically, either.
I do have to honestly ask, what rights are Palestinians missing? Isn't Palestine self-ruled? Or is this as I'm suspecting this really about Israel not allowing immigration from Palestine.
It seems really weird to me that this is still going, when a quick google search tells me Israel's modern iteration was established in 1948 (74 years ago). That may just be my tendency to sympathize with people whose great-grandparents, grandparents, parents, and they themselves have been born in a territory over people who have never set foot there.
Far from it for me to defend BB (although he does have some good cooking ideas!), but I'm preeeeettttttty sure he doesn't want to gas every Jew.
Maybe the Democratic Underground is a more suitable place for you, Davedave.
"I do have to honestly ask, what rights are Palestinians missing?"
The right to a democratically elected government, the rule of law, healthcare, education...
Er, did you mean due to Israel or due to the PA being a kleptocratic Nazi gang?
Fuck off, Brett, it's your chums who tried to ban the 'Zionists'.
Theee definitions are all not analogous because there is already a Jewish nation. It’s more like saying Turkey should cease to exist in favor of a Kurdish state.
Indeed, it would be interesting to see the school’s reaction if student group required an “America for Americans” pledge not to permit any speaker who did not oppose all claims of Indians to have any recognized sovereign (national or tribal status) as Indians, but insisted that this didn’t mean that they discriminate against Indians as individuals.
The only Jews I think should be gassed are those convicted of a death penalty offense and sentenced to death, under the exact same circumstances a gentile would be gassed.
I still can't quite decide if Davedave is an over the top parody account, or just clinical.
I'm pretty sure he does, what with the overtly Nazi stuff he says. Maybe he doesn't realise that's what he believes, though.
And then imagine that the Turks had both been subject to genocide in the past century, and were stil subject to genocidal threats, and had been expelled from a dozen Kurdish countries since 1948
There is already a sovereign Seminole nation. Not completely soveregn but recognized as having aboriginal sovereignty under US law. Seminole Tribe was mostly about Florida’s sovereign immunity, but it did recognize the Seminole Tribe of Florida’s status.
The analogy is good. Not perfect, and perhaps somewhat exaggerated in the other direction. But it does involve insistence on abrogating an existing, long-standing sovereignty status.
None of that excuses Israel's abuse of people in the occupied territories or Israel's nuzzling with Trump and taking sides in American politics. Until it stops both and make substantial amends for at least the second point, Israel does not deserve and increasingly does not have the support of many Americans -- mainly educated, younger Americans and the culture war's victors.
If Israel wants to operate without American support, it should continue along its currently chosen path. I hope Israel improves. If not . . . being a violent, immoral dumbass who chooses sides poorly should have consequences.
There’s no moral imperative to recognize the Jews’ claim to Palestine over the Palestinians’.
To be super-clear, I'm referring to the two groups' historical claims, which form part of the basis of Zionism in the Jews' case. This was in response to Brett's pleasant factoid that "Jews have been living in the area that is Israel today for thousands of years."
I do think there's some imperative, maybe not moral exactly but at least ethical, to note that they're there now, Israel is a legit country, and that (among other things) gives them a strong present claim.
However, a certain amount of context is needed for the support for Israel.
1. The Jewish Israelis are there now. This isn't some hypothetical "what if the Poles wanted a separate nation in Kansas". The Jewish Israelis are a majority in the country of Israel. It's the only country they are a majority in.
2. The Jews have faced discrimination of epic proportions in the 20th century. Start with the Holocaust....6 million Jews rounded up and killed. But don't stop there. Also look at the absolute devastating discrimination they have faced across the Middle East. Nearly another million Jews (850,000) have been kicked out from their home countries across the Arab world since 1946. There used to be 150,000 Jews in Iraq in 1946. Today there are 4. Every Jewish temple has been shut down. Meanwhile there are more Muslims in Israel today than there were in 1946.
3. Being an anti-Zionist means being committed to kicking 7 million Jews out of Israel (at best), a massive refugee problem. At worst, it equates to a second Holocaust. That's really what it is. Because of that...it's very anti-Semetic.
Are you confusing him for Mizek?
Can you give some examples of "the overtly Nazi stuff [Brett] says"?
So YOU know what he believes, and he doesn't?
The internet really is full of lunatics.
I note you left out the most important thing: lack of (or big reduction in) corruption.
People seek power to become the kleptocrat-in-chief. This will be no different. I’d like to think I am wrong, but history suggests otherwise, lopsided.
Either flat out dictatorship, or nominal democracy to keep the useful idiots bought off for a while, massive corruption ahoy while shining them on!
Please, concerned folk. Prove me wrong! Make me a liar and an idiot!
They’ve had numerous chances for every one of those things. Israeli Jews bent backwards to give them to them. The Palestinians refused, because they want all of Israel, and want to kick the Jews completely off the earth. How many quotes by actual Palestinians do you need to hear before you realize that?
Is that you, Roger Waters?
Actually, it's a pleasant "fact"; I insist on the original definition of "factoid": Something that looks like a fact, but isn't. (Thus the "oid".)
There are 4 Jews in Iraq?
Yes.
To be fair, maybe 3 by today.
Most of the Middle East no longer has ongoing genocides of Jews for the simple reason that they finished their genocides some time ago. They've mostly moved on to genocide campaigns against Christians at this point.
Seriously, ARE you an over the top parody account, or just off your meds?
Among other issues, you are failing to distinguish between opposing a country’s policies and opposing its existence. There was a period when Nelson Mandela cozied up with Russia and other rather bad people, doubtless because, much like Israel, he perveived he didn’t have much choice. There were other policies and things he did that could be severely criticized. The ANC has had some very corrupt leaders of late. Their leadership denied AIDS, COVID, and more. There’s a lot to criticize. Let’s suppose they did things worse than they actually did.
Would any of this justify taking a position that South Africa should be for whites only and black people as a people should not have any right to any national aspirations in South Africa? That the existence of a black-run South Africa that sees itself as primarily black is itself inherently immoral?
"The ANC has had some very corrupt leaders of late."
"Of late"? Was some brief moment when they weren't? I must have blinked.
" Among other issues, you are failing to distinguish between opposing a country’s policies and opposing its existence. "
I oppose Israel's right-wing belligerence and its obnoxious meddling in American politics. Unless it ceases those activities and makes amends for cuddling with right-wingers, I support withdrawal of American support (because I do not like superstition-laced, immoral, right-wing belligerence at home or abroad). I do not understand how you derive your assertion from my position.