The Volokh Conspiracy
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Some Berkeley Law "Jew Free Zone" Updates
Following up on Friday's post about several major student groups at Berkeley Law pledging not to invite "speakers that have expressed and continued to hold views … in support of Zionism, the apartheid state of Israel, and the occupation of Palestine."
(1) Ken Marcus, whose op-ed on the situation spurred the controversy, responds to his critics here.
(2) Jewish Berkeley Law students talk about their reaction here. Note that Students for Justice in Palestine consulted with every affinity group at the law school before issuing the boycott pledge *except" the Jewish law students group.
(3) One point I didn't mention in my previous post is that SJP's statement seems part and parcel of a nationwide SJP campaign to specifically try to exclude Jews from "progressive spaces" unless they will specifically denounce Israel's existence. To take one of an unfortunately growing number of examples:
Two Jewish students at the State University of New York (SUNY) at New Paltz say they were booted from a support group for sexual assault victims and harassed by members of the group due to their Jewish identity, according to a complaint filed with the Education Department.
One of the victims, student Cassandra Blotner, says members of the support group threatened to spit on her in public for proudly being Jewish, while others called her a "dumb bitch" who supports "mass genocide" due to her support for Israel. The complaint alleges the university was "fully aware of the situation," yet did nothing to protect the students from the anti-Semitic hate campaign.
Again, this is a political strategy, rather than simply isolated incidents. Recall that the Women's March collapsed because its founders decided that Jews were not welcome. Also note that Palestinian lobby mouthpiece Rep. Rashida Tlaib recently stated that you can't be a progressive and support "Israel's apartheid government" and Linda Sarsour similarly remarked that one can't be a feminist and a "Zionist."
(4) But, you might object, that when Tlaib says "Israel's apartheid government" she doesn't mean "Israel," just the policies she objects to. That would make more sense if Tlaib wasn't on the record as supporting the replacement of all of Israel with "Palestine." Similarly, one commenter was quite insistent that when SJP says "Zionism" it does not mean "the existence of Israel," "the apartheid state of Israel" means only Israel's bad policies that they think is akin to apartheid, and the "occupation of Palestine" means only the occupation of the West Bank, not all of Israel. Anyone who knows SJP's history and politics would know that they mean, exactly, that anyone who supports Israel's existence should be forbidden from speaking. But just for the heck of it, I perused SJP Berkeley Law's Facebook page, which talks about "Israel's apartheid" going back to the late 1940s, ie, when Israel was founded, and well before the "occupation" of the West Bank. So when you see Tlaib, SJP, and others talk about "apartheid Israel," there is a very simple question to ask: Is there a time when you think Israel wasn't guilty of "apartheid," and is there anything Israel could do, short of surrendering in favor of a Palestinian Muslim-majority state, that would make Israel "not apartheid?" Once they evade that question, or maybe even answer honestly, you can be convinced, if you aren't already, that in practice the apartheid libel has nothing to do with Israel's policies, and everything to do with opposition to Israel's existence and the desire to replace it with a Palestinian Muslim majority state.
(5) Relatedly, one commenter acknowledges that SJP wants Israel to cease to exist, but adds that I neglect "as a Jewish state that privileges the Jewish majority." Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is something inherently wrong with having one tiny country devoted to preserving and protecting a people that's been subject to genocide and every form of oppression short of it in just the past century or so (mass pogroms during the Russian Revolution, expulsion from Arab countries, Soviet state antisemitism, etc., in addition to the Nazis.). Both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas promise a "Palestine" based on sharia, thus inherently privileging Muslims far more than Israel "privileges" its Jewish citizens. If this bothers any of the activists who claim to oppose Israel because it's "chauvinist," I have yet to encounter it. And as detailed in Benny Morris' One State, Two States, any Palestinians willing to countenance a binational state or similar arrangements were murdered or intimidated into silence by the dominant faction, leaving Jewish advocates of such a solution with nothing to go on.
Finally, the dominant Palestinian nationalist factions want either 2 Palestinian Muslim states, one only Arab-Muslim, and one majority Arab-Muslim with a maybe-tolerated Jewish minority, or one state with few if any Jews, the rest murdered or expelled. Few if any Palestinian nationalists are willing to publicly state that a Palestinian state should be contingent on the rights if Jewish Israelis being protected. Again, this bothers their supporters not at all. So spare me the suggestion that the underlying problem is inequality in Israel. Arab citizens in Israel have far greater equality than Jews in an Arab Palestine could hope for in the best of circumstances. (Which is why the trending trope is that Israeli Jews are "settler colonialists" and therefore have no rights.)
(6) Even that aside, you'd have to be utterly ignorant of the history of antisemitism to think that it "just so happens" that of all the countries in the world, the only people singled out for this boycott are supporters of the existence of Israel, regardless of how the individual might feel about any or all of Israel's policies, and that the only ethnic/religious group, ever, that would be almost entirely excluded by a Berkeley Law student boycott is Jews. It would be pointless for example, ask the Muslim and the MENA student groups why they don't rule out speakers who support Assad's Alawite Syrian dictatorship, responsible for the death of half a million Arabs, primarily Muslims far worse than even the craziest "antizionists" accuse Israel of doing. No Jews involved, so no reason to care.
(7) I can't find the link right now, but Berkeley's chancellor was quoted as stating that there is no legal rationale for prohibiting the student groups in question from exercising their "freedom of speech." I'm not sure that's true. First, California's public accommodations law is very, very broad, basically prohibiting excluding anyone from any public place (defined broadly) for any reason. There was even a case in which a German restaurant was sued by the ACLU for excluding people wearing Nazi insignia. Of course, no one would argue that SJP is obligated to bring in a pro-Israel speaker; that would violate its First Amendment rights. But can Berkeley Law Women decline to invite a speaker on abortion rights because that speaker has endorsed the existence of Israel? I think that's less than clear. Second, it's true that not all Jews support the existence of Israel, and not all people who publicly support Israel's right to exist are Jews. However, imagine an anti-gay rights group on campus got other organizations to sign a pledge that they will not invite any speaker on any topic who professes to support the right of same-sex couples to marry. Would the Chancellor be so confident that this would not be considered by civil rights agencies and courts to constitute discrimination based on sexual orientation, because same-sex marriage is so closely tied to that? I won't be belabor the analogy. I'm actually not a fan of the decisions universally holding that refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding constitutes sexual-orientation discrimination even if the patrons are always gay, but if that's going to be the sort of rule we live under, it should also apply to Jews. And going back to point 3, if anyone who *isn't* Jewish has faced harassment on campus for being a "Zionist," I have yet to encounter it.
(8) Adam Pukier of the Jewish Student Association at Berkeley Law, writes: "If I could do it over again, I would have asked LSJP to include the Jewish student group in the conversation. I would have encouraged other groups to seek out Jewish voices on campus. I would have engaged on an individual level in an open dialogue about Zionism and the BDS movement. I would have explained how it is possible for someone to harbor a deep sympathies for the Palestinian people, support the existence of the State of Israel and strongly criticize many of Israel's policies all at the same time — it is possible to be a Zionist and condemn the actions of Israel."
Mr. Pukier's efforts to stand up for Jewish students at Berkeley Law, which is hardly the popular thing to do there, are commendable. But surely he knows that SJP has no interest in having a conversation or dialogue with him or anyone who supports Israel's existence. SJP Tufts, for example, not only refuses "dialogue" with even left-wing groups like J Street that think Israel should exist, but urge others to boycott them entirely.
They are not interested in compromise, hearing other perspectives, or anything else. They want Israel to be replaced by Palestine and they have no other principle. Even the possibility of the genocide of the Jewish population of Israel is not a significant concern. Again, the point of calling Israeli Jews "settler colonialists" is that they should have no human rights, and just as, e.g., there are few regrets on the left for the many Frenchmen killed and ultimately expelled from Algeria, the same is true of Israel. Of course, most would likely prefer that the Jews surrender peacefully, but that's a preference, not a requirement.
As for the rest of Mr. Pukier's paragraph, it's missing something important. It's also possible to have a deep concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people and support the policies in general of the Israeli government, if one believes that it's not the Israeli government's policies that are the barrier to improving the lot of Palestinians, but the refusal, since the 1930s and continuing today, of Palestinian leaders to countenance a settlement that would allow a Jewish state of any borders in "Palestine." By suggesting that only harsh critics of Israel worry about Palestinian well-being, one is wrongly conceding that "Zionists" who are generally sympathetic to Israeli policies are inherently anti-Palestinian and implicitly bad people.
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I support Israel because they are the only democracy in a region of superstitious, 9th century based governments. I could care less about the imaginary sky friends on either side. What I don't understand about the Jews here in America is why do they overwhelmingly vote for those that support these policies? Why do they overwhelmingly vote for those that would disarm them by force? And, the big question . . . why the hell should I care any longer about what happens to the American Jews when they actively vote for their own destruction?
Maybe they vote Democrat because they see Republicans like yourself consistently suggesting that they are only worthy of rights if they vote the way you want them to.
Exactly. Republicans pretending that they care more about or for Israel than Democrats is ridiculous. They may have cared more about Netanyahu and his government, but that's not Israel as a whole. And of course, it isn't Democrats who said that those chanting "Jews will not replace us" presumably included some very fine people.
Of course, it also isn't Democrats who officially recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.
Maybe things are more complicated than "my side good, your side bad"?
Maybe because we don't all think recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capitol was a good thing.
Stop gaslighting us. It’s not “ridiculous”, but instead obviously true. Whatever the Republicans’ faults the “apartheid Israel” crowd, which want Israel to die. is welcome in the Democrat party and not the GOP.
Right; Republicans hate the Jews in the U.S., not the ones in Israel. Well, sometimes they hate the ones in Israel too — just not because of purported "apartheid."
Not only that, it's important to remember that for significant number of evangelical Christians (most of whom aren't Democrats), support for Israel stems from the fact that under Biblical prophecy, Israel must exist so that Armageddon can happen. It's not that they love Jews or Israel; it's that Israel is necessary so Jesus can return and kill anyone who isn't a Christian. Which, when you think about it, doesn't exactly strike me as genuinely being pro-Israel.
Man, do you actually talk to any evangelical Christians, or just listen to talking points from people who don't like them?
Christians, at least my branch of us, view Israel as essentially co-religionists who haven't quite come around to accepting that the savior actually showed up. They're our cousins gone astray.
And it's not like, if God decides to stage Armageddon, mankind can foil Him by refusing to have a country called Israel...
I was raised evangelical Christian. I know what I’m talking about. And I’m old enough to remember serious discussions during the Nixon administration about whether Henry Kissinger is the anti-christ (which at least was a change from when they were claiming the pope is the anti-christ). I’m also old enough to remember, in 1978, hearing my pastor step into the pulpit and say that Biblical prophecy was just fulfilled when Britain joined the common market; the common market, you see, was the ten-horned beast mentioned in the Book of Daniel, with each horn representing a nation that used to be part of the Roman empire now in a new confederation. So yes, I do understand the evangelical mindset on the subject of Biblical prophecy.
And here’s what biblical prophecy has to say about Israel:
“For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Zachariah 14:2
You're 40 years out of date, there.
I never said they were not worthy of rights, don't put words in my mouth. You assume I am a Republican, you would be wrong.
How about you answer the question instead of avoiding and throwing up red herrings and straw men? Or are you too biased? Why does a group, persecuted for thousands of years, overwhelmingly support a political party that actively hates Jews (based on their own words) and also wants to disarm them and force them to be reliant on the same government for their protection?
Different Jews probably have different reasons for how they vote, but at least some of them see Mussolini in the current Republican Party. So voting Republican means voting for the party that would destroy democracy here. The current GOP is, if not fascist, at least fascist curious.
Mussolini was pretty lightweight as an anti-semite, certainly far less than Marxists who have such an influence on academia and the DNC.
Ok, so you’re completely clueless as to what Marxism is.
Not as clueless as Marxist apologists are about Mussolini.
I was using Mussolini as a code word for fascism; sorry it whooshed right over your head. And if you think either the DNC or academia are influenced by Marxism then you have no concept of what Marxism actually is.
Ah, yes. "Real Marxism" hasn’t been tried yet. LOL!
The argument is not that real Marxism hasn't been tried. The argument is that what is going on in academia and the DNC is not Marxism, and anyone who says it is doesn't understand the definition of Marxism.
Yeah, that's the argument. Except I've seen the way enough academic Marxists argue and behave to not find it plausible. Here's an example of that. You think a theory that leads to horror every last time somebody tries to implement it actually attracts people who aren't on some level open to imposing horror?
Academic Marxists are just governing Marxists without the power to set up labor camps and exile you to them. They're not different people, they're the same people, powerless. But give them that power, and they'd follow the path they've already chosen to start, to it's end in the gulag. Because that's the dynamic of Marxism, and they already blew their chance to recoil from the horror of it all.
Brett, maybe you could tell us how you're defining Marxism, because that may be part of the problem. Marxism means something very specific. You can find a few actual Marxists here or there, but academia is no more Marxist than the GOP is Nazi. The fact that you can find similarities here and there doesn't mean they're genuine Marxists.
I gather you're ignorant about what Marx wrote about the Jews, for a start.
Lightweight compared to what? Sure, Mussolini did not pass any antisemitic laws until 1938 and ended up deporting "only" about 20% Italy's Jews to German death camps. If that is the measure of "lightweight" the SJC proposal doesn't even register.
Complain to this guy for bringing up Mussolini:
I responded to weirdity with weirdity. You didn't respond to the original but did to mine, implying the original was not goofy enough.
What does that mean?
As a murderous anti-Semite Mussolini was in fact exactly a lightweight and you are an ignoramus to claim otherwise. The “20%” figure you mention is presumably a garble of the fact that Wikipedia states as, “In the nineteen months of German occupation, from September 1943 to May 1945, twenty percent [about 8,000] of Italy’s pre-war Jewish population was murdered by the Nazis.” That of course was in the period after Italy surrendered to the Allies and the deposed Mussolini was, after being extracted from captivity, not in control of anything much and certainly not the occupying Germans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Italy#Deportation_and_murder
Well, Italians were not anti-Semitic the way the Germans, Austrians and Eastern Europeans were even before Hitler. Anti-semitism would not have had the same political resonance in Italy.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/04/opinion/ukraine-russia-refugees.html
The author is a fool. His ancestors' experience has taught him nothing. It is Democrats, not Trump, who are the current U.S. equivalent of Lenin & Co. and Hitler & Co. And the author is behind them all the way!
Not going behind a paywall to read this, but I assume you are talking about Bret Stephens and not David Bernstein?
The point is, there are 4-5 million Jewish adults in the US, they each have their own views of what’s best for them politically, as Americans, and as Jews. If you think a particular policy is correct, you should support it; suggesting that you might condition that support on whether Jews vote the way you like is offensive. There is no collective Jew deciding how Jews should vote and in what basis.
There is no Council of the Elders of Zion dictating that Jews should support Israel’s right to exist, but they do, as the op said, “overwhelmingly”. And they support Democrats in about the same proportion. I wouldn’t put it exactly the way he does but my reaction to this story definitely contained an element of schadenfreude. The Pukier guy, all eager to signal to he, too, was eager to denounce Israel was particularly effective at at eliciting this reaction. Let the lefties eat each other. I have more pressing concerns.
Btw, the Chancellor’s statement that you couldn’t find is quoted and linked to in one of the articles you link to, the one featuring Shay Cohen I believe.
"There is no Council of the Elders of Zion dictating that Jews should support Israel’s right to exist, but they do, as the op said, “overwhelmingly”."
Yeah, really?
http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-a-quarter-of-us-jews-think-israel-is-apartheid-state/
http://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
A larger percentage of Republicans support Israel's right to exist, than do American Jews!
Just for the record, the apartheid poll had a huge methodological flaw rendering the result bullshit.
Or worthy of the rights they are willing to defend for others. But, good luck with the anti-semites you all choose to align with, I'm sure they'll change one of these days.
I'm reasonably confident that does not discriminate against gays. While it is true that same-sex marriage is closely linked to being gay, and thus a pledge not to allow speakers who are in same-sex marriages discriminates against gays, support for same-sex marriage is not closely linked to being gay.
And yet... Courts and agencies have consistently held that refusing to design a cake for a same-sex wedding IS discrimination based on sexual orientation, even if the baker otherwise has no problem selling to gay customers, and even if the customer ordering the cake isn't gay.
That’s different because the people being "protected" are considered first class and the baker is considered second or third class (at best). They’re only in favor of rights for people who matter.
Are you really not able to see the distinction there, David?
Straight people are extremely unlikely to buy a gay-themed cake for their wedding, even if they support gay marriage.
Of course straight people will buy or order a same-sex wedding case. You don't think, e.g., that straight parents ever buy or order the cake for their kid's same-sex wedding?
There are still actual gay people directly involved in that hypothetical. There are no gay people involved when a pro-gay-marriage speaker gives a speech.
There would surely be gay people involved if student groups chose to boycott any potential speaker who had taken a public and favorably position on same-sex marriage.
There would surely be gay people involved if student groups chose to boycott any public speaker in favor of Trump, too.
The distinction isn't whether gay people are "surely involved" in the aggregate. It's whether gay people are directly involved in practically every instance.
And yet, I'm pretty confident that would be an uproar if 9 student groups at Berkeley Law pledged not to invite speakers who were pro-gay marriage, and much of that outrage would be based on the idea that this constitutes anti-gay discrimination. And it would be coming from the same people who claim that not inviting speakers who profess to support Israel's continued existence has nothing to do with Jews.
I suspect that's not true, although we'll probably never know.
But, there's been an uproar about this boycott anyway. So what are you worried about?
You can see the uproar over Florida's policy: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
Known to many as "don't say gay."
I don’t see how that’s responsive in any way. Or, to thr extent it is, I think there’d be a similar uproar over a state “Don’t say Jew” law.
The relevance is that the law doesn't say "don't say gay'" nor does it specifically mention homosexuality at all. Rather, it prohibits any age inappropriate discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity to little kids in public school. Yet it was attacked for what is seen as its disproportionate chilling effect regarding gays. So people are perfectly willing to extrapolate from seemingly neutral language when it suits them, often the same people who bend over backwards to NOT do that when Israel and jews are concerned.
I don't buy it. If there were a Florida law banning school discussion of "non-Christian religious identities," there would be an uproar.
The FL law doesn't ban discussion of non-straight "identity". As Bernstein said, "it prohibits any age inappropriate discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity to little kids in public school." So the comparison to a ban on "school discussion of 'non-Christian religious identities'" is deliberately misleading,
If you think that Florida finds discussion of straight sexual orientation or gender identity to be inappropriate, you are totally insane.
Who orders the cake is immaterial. It's use in a same-sex wedding, conduct which is closely related to being gay, is why the baker won't make it. There is no such comparable conduct in the the present case.
The proper analogy in this case which would be discrimination against Jews is a pledge to not allowing speakers who wear yarmulkes (but allowing other Jewish speakers and speakers with other head coverings).
Supporting Israel, and caring enough to express that support publicly, is very much conduct closely related to being Jewish.
That's just false, and a good thing, too.
I got statistics. According to Pew, 82% of American Jews say that caring about Israel is essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/pf_05-11-21_jewish-americans-07-2/
And Pew uses a very capacious definition of "Jewish," including anyone who has at least one Jewish parents, considers himself at least partly Jewish, and doesn't follow another religion. This includes a *lot* of people with only the most tenuous ties to the Jewish community. If you limited it to people who are in some sense "actively" and consider themselves fully Jewish, undoubtedly the % would be even higher.
You can get a sense from the fact that the figure is 95% for Conservatie and 86% for Reform Jews.
What about non-Jewish support for Israel. Seems to me that's quite common.
Right, that’s the point. Of course Jews are largely pro-Israel. The point is that non-Jews are also significantly pro-Israel, and also pretty outspoken about it. And there are a lot more of them.
That’s why it’s wrong to say that “Supporting Israel, and caring enough to express that support publicly, is very much conduct closely related to being Jewish.”
Nonsense. That support for Israel is common among non-Jews (at least outside the campus madhouses) doesn't change the fact that being Jewish is strongly ("closely") related to (correlated with) being pro-Israel. The former fact has no bearing on the latter claim.
That's just obviously stupid. Of course the degree of correlation is related to the strength of the correlation. What are you even talking about?
Let's say the LGBTQ club of Berkeley Law is thinking of inviting a young activist to speak about trans rights. One possibility is Joe Dudley, nothing specifically in his bio about Israel, though he does mention that he grew up in a strict evangelical family. The other is Joe Cohen, nothing specifically about Israel in his bio, but he was vice-president of Hillel in college. Which one do you think is likely to be asked about whether he is a "Zionist?" We know the answer, even though "evangelicals" tend to be pro-Israel. And even if that club itself would behave differently because, as I noted, this boycott is part of a national SJP campaign to exclude specifically pro-Israel Jews from progressive space, SJP would get on the club's case if it didn't "vet" Mr. Cohen.
In my view, you would have to present evidence that SJP treats Jews who support Israel differently than non-Jews who support Israel to win a discrimination case.
But you can also protest a policy that you know is (a) part of a broader anti-Jewish campaign; (b) likely to lead spefically to discrimination against Jews and (c) if there is no formal discrimination against Jews, would lead to the near total exclusion of Jews ....
without having the evidence you would need to win a discrimination case.
Like in the 1920s when Harvard, Columbia, etc. announced that they were going to require personal interviews for candidates, photos with applications, and try to achieve more "geographic diversity" you couldn't *prove* at that point that the % of Jewish students was going to decline precipitously, but no one but the naive would have doubted it.
Is there precedent that a near total exclusion that also excludes large swaths of others is sufficient to establish discriminatory intent absent other evidence (*)? It sounds like a disparate impact to me.
(*) A broader campaign is evidence.
Pretty sure a rule that prohibited anyone under 5'10" from holding a certain job would have trouble getting past sex discrimination rules, even if it excludes a lot of men almong with the vast majority of women.
Can you provide citations to case law other than what Title VII (or state law) permits under disparate impact (that theory doesn't apply to Title II).
I just want to say this exchange with Josh R has been very interesting.
The problem of the legacy of the CRA 0f 64. Buyers can discriminate but sellers can't under certain conditions was anathema to a country that believes in liberty and free association. It made no sense then or now and created all sorts of "innovative" legal rationales on both sides.
As for this...seems that govt and this is a state university can't discriminate or force others too which is what this is about. Should be a slam dunk to stop this crap.
As for the past...I would respectfully disagree with the author...the past is a sunk cost. The idea that the State of Israel's existence is morally allowed because of historical antisemitism can easily be applied to many groups' treatment in the past. The battles in Europe (esp Eastern Europe between Jew and Christian) are a window to the stupidity of man...and resonate in so many ways..from the pogroms to peasant revolutions to the Soviet formation where many Jewish Liberals supported and played important roles only to get kicked out by Stalin creating the modern Neocons. In the end if you want a country you have to fight for it and Israel did fight against pretty big odds..they are not going anywhere and like we are seeing with Ukraine...if people are willing to fight for their country, students protesting in Berkely and discriminating against the Jewish students isn't going to change a thing. Israel is not going anywhere.
I don't disagree. It's just weird when you see people talking about, e.g., the Law of Return and they write as if a bunch Jews came up with this because they are Jewish chauvinists and white racists who wanted to oppress Arab "people of color." As if the notion of having a Jewish state is completely detached from history...
For theanti-Semitic commenters here: Arabs are NOT people of color
At least no more so than are Jews...
Thank you! This is way better than the self-defeating "the student groups obviously want all Jews to die because they never said they didn't."
Still a bit presumptuous and dismissive but it's progress! I like how you admitted that, at least maybe, "there is something inherently wrong with having one tiny country devoted to preserving and protecting a people..." This is what I think people mean by "apartheid state of Israel," not the occupation itself, which SJP calls out separately. Anyway, you can count me as someone who objects to Israel's official Jewish privileges (or should we say Arab oppression), but who also thinks that replacing Israel with a Palestinian state would likely be worse. So now you've encountered it. Do you think that's an antisemitic position?
That's not an antisemitic position. It does leave the issue, however, of what you do about all the countries in the world that have an official, established state religion, and/or in some way favor the dominant ethnic group. Many countries, for example, have ethnic preferences for immigration and citizenship (Ireland, Italy, Poland to name 3), and some, like Turkey, have forced assimilation of minorities (Israel has the former but not the latter.) One problem for Israel is that fully integrating the minority population of Arabs would also require full responsibilities for Arab citizens, including military service, that most of them don't want, and that their politicians who most claim to be in favor of equality reject... Unfortunately, there is no real movement in Israel for stronger civic equality including civic responsibilities, and NGOs like the New Israel Fund that once supported such things have lurched left and now support complete rejectionism instead.
100% agree. I find even the likes of France to be worse than Israel on this count.
I will also reference one of my favorite quotes that explains things well. Given Israel's demographics (few citizens come from liberal democratic nations), neighborhood, and military challenges, one needs to think of Israel as under overperforming Turkey rather than as an underperforming Sweden.
" It does leave the issue, however, of what you do about all the countries in the world that have an official, established state religion, and/or in some way favor the dominant ethnic group. "
Attempt to persuade them to be better, to prefer reason and modernity to the paltry alternatives. Refrain from helping them impose supernatural beliefs on anyone. Refrain from pretending that their superstition-laced approach is anything other than childish and downscale. Encourage them not to discriminate based on ethnicity. Establish a better example.
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I'd have thought that "this is open to the public... except for you" would be different from "this is for hand-picked friends... and you aren't one". Do these groups have a public "apply here if you'd like to speak" page, or are they the ones to reach out to speakers they think would be interesting?
You would think so, but you would also think that a German restaurant declining to host people wearing Nazi insignia would be okay. By which I mean, California courts have interpreted their law requiring nondiscrimination in "business establishments" so broadly that I wouldn't be so sure that "we will not invite speakers who think Israel should exist to our forum, regardless of what the topic of the speech is, and even though our group has nothing in particular to do with Israel or the Middle East (saw, Law Women of Berkeley)" would not be held to come within the prohibitions of the law. And I don't think it would likely be held protected by the First Amendment, either.
It might not have had much prestige, but I’m glad I went to a normal school with normal people.
Ah, but that’s why Berkeley is a “progressive” school! A couple of years down the road, expect to see “Jew-free zones” at your local state university.
See, that is the part that scares the hell out of me, Ed Grinberg. You see a progression (Berkeley ---> State Univs). Then what? Where is this ultimately going?
... others called her a "dumb bitch" who supports "mass genocide" due to her support for Israel. The complaint alleges the university was "fully aware of the situation," yet did nothing to protect the students from the anti-Semitic hate campaign.
As sad and gross as this incident is, I think it's a bit much to expect the administration to have taken any action here. Being called a dumb bitch is hardly an antisemitic hate campaign.
This incident fits into my overall impression that we've raised Generation Ass. Every kid thinks the world should revolve around their identity choices, and anywhere it fails to do so counts as a personal affront deserving of a maximum response including personal attacks and appeals to authority. My first memory of this downward spiral was when a black Yale student screamed and screamed at a Yale residential dean for having failed to denounce his wife over an email she had sent suggesting that students should be generally free to choose their own Halloween costumes. And it's gotten weirder and sicker since then.
In other words, she’s not one of the special people and so not deserving. Back to policing microaggressions for the benefit of the special people.
You clearly didn't understand my post, as usual. Anyway, yesterday we established that you're a special person yourself, so what are you worried about?
Membership in the special people is specially granted and revoked. We can see that in the case of Gays Against Groomers, who became a victim of the totalitarian child sexualization and mutilation movement. They wanted to live their lives without victimizing children or being associated with people who do.
FWIW, Jewish students filing such complaints are merely applying Title VI as courts and agencies have interpreted it to themselves. In a first-best world, most obnoxious speech on campus would be protected even if directed at minority groups. In the second-best world, if Jews are a protected class (and they are), if the law applies to other protected groups, it also applies to Jews. And if the administration reacts strongly when hate is directed at other groups, and not at Jews, that's both a problem and itself a violation of Title VI.
Do you really think calling any minority student a "dumb bitch" would result in Title VI enforcement?
If a white student called a black student a "dumb bitch" after the black student, say, expressed support for affirmative action, yes, I think on almost any campus in the US there would be intervention upon a complaint, especially if it was accompanied by a threat to spit on her if she expressed that support publicly, as alleged in the case I quoted.
*Maybe* the spitting threat, as a threat of assault if taken literally. But still... that's sad.
And definitely not "dumb bitch" by itself.
https://atlantablackstar.com/2014/11/12/fraternity-gets-penalty-calling-students-black-bitches/
Did you even click that link? The headline is
UConn Fraternity Gets No Penalty for Calling Students ‘Black Bitches’
"Because of this incident the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity was suspended for a month and was not allowed to participate in the rock painting,..."
And which is an interesting distinction. If the sexual assault support group were an official SUNY organization, I would expect it to face consequences for ejecting Jewish students.
https://thetab.com/uk/london/2021/10/12/ucl-is-investigating-a-medical-student-for-allegedly-racially-abusing-woman-on-bus-42318
London? Anyway, sounds like no action was taken.
https://gossiponthis.com/2016/09/21/university-north-dakota-und-students-racist-snapchat-photo-locked-black-bitch-out/
Nice.
Again, no mention of any consequences. Anyway, there's quite a lot more going on in that accusation than just a comment.
Randal,
Maybe you are unacquainted with the Code of Conduct addenda to the ubiquitous DEI Committees on campus and in membership organizations.
Such a comment would almost certainly be punished in some way.
Just substitute "water buffalo" for "dumb bitch".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_buffalo_incident
Once again, no consequences.
" In a first-best world, most obnoxious speech on campus would be protected even if directed at minority groups. In the second-best world, if Jews are a protected class (and they are), if the law applies to other protected groups, it also applies to Jews. "
Should a school be entitled to discriminate against gays? Should a school be entitled to discriminate against Jews?
Private school? Yes on both.
Public school? Trick question. There shouldn't be any public post-secondary schools. (But, as long as we have them, no on both.)
Why have we let anti-American, antiSemitic Palestinians into this country? Throw them out. The mischief they're doing now is nothing compared to the harm they'll do once they get enough of the brainwashed leftists supporting them.
So many of these people who throw around the word "apartheid" support the forced separation and second class status of the unvaccinated.
It’s almost like they just parrot words without knowing or caring what those words mean.
So... you think unvaccinated people are victims of apartheid?
I love your posts, they're very special.
You can look up the definition of apartheid if you don’t know what it means.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apartheid
Being unvaccinated is not a race last time I checked.
Did you read that whole definition? Including the examples for the second, broader, meaning?
Sure he did, but he chose to misrepresent what was at the link. If you don't look he gets away with it. I'll bet the cites in his briefs are like that, too.
I actually did look, asshole, and you’ll notice that the second “sense” isn’t backed up by any examples or common usage.
Neither is practicing Islam a race.
But some people are ineligible to be vaccinated due to their innate health conditions.
Pack it in folks, we found the dumbest possible take on this topic.
Schools that require students to be vaccinated -- an American policy and custom for more than a century, for damned good reason -- are a problem? Those who support those policies and practices are to be disparaged?
These disaffected, antisocial, belligerently ignorant clingers can't be replaced fast enough.
You can’t argue. You express yourself by barking.
“So many of these people who throw around the word “apartheid” support the forced separation and second class status of the [people with the plague].”
—You, c. 1348.
LTG, I thought we called that 1348 thing quarantine... 🙂
Chag Semeach Sukkot!
You (paraphrase): anyone I want to discriminate against has "the plague"
" Let's assume for the sake of argument that there is something inherently wrong with having one tiny country devoted to preserving and protecting a people that's been subject to genocide and every form of oppression short of it in just the past century or so (mass pogroms during the Russian Revolution, expulsion from Arab countries, Soviet state antisemitism, etc., in addition to the Nazis.). "
Is that a conservative's way of suggesting Americans should establish a state devoted to protecting and preserving Blacks, maybe by establishing a Black government and Black-promoting laws to replace one of our can't-keep-up, bigot-hugging states (Alabama, Mississippi, West Virginia, Oklahoma, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, likely a few other candidates)?
Actually, there was Liberia.
Really playing all the hits, aren't we?
David, I'll confess that you apparently have far more energy and time to devote to harassing and defaming law students at a superior law school across the country than I do to debunking you, point-by-point. Here on the internet, we call what you're doing "gish galloping," and you shouldn't mistake it for winning the argument.
I will respond here only to the one point I had raised, in your other thread, which had to do with how a normal person would interpret SJP's statement (rather than, how a sequence of tendentious inferences could be drawn by a bad-faith hack in order to reach a particular absurd conclusion). Specifically, in opposing "Zionism," SJP is opposed not to "the existence of Israel", but to a particular ideology of Jewish manifest destiny in the historical land of Israel, from the river to the sea; in opposing the "occupation" of "Palestine," SJP is not advocating for the genocidal elimination of all Jews in mandatory Palestine, but for ending the military occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza; and in opposing Israeli "apartheid," SJP is not making some backhanded reference that traces all the way to Israeli's existence from its founding, but a specific regime that continues to this day, enforcing a system of second-class citizenship for Israeli Arabs and treating all Palestinians in the OTs as essentially prisoners.
To refresh, David, your argument has been that SJP is calling for nothing short of genocide. Your "evidence" for this interpretation of what the SJP really means relies on a chant you heard once, an adverse inference drawn from the SJP's decision not to rebut Chemerinsky's self-admittedly stretched interpretation of their statement, and something you found on their Facebook page. Of course, we could just look at their statement in its actual context, which you were kind enough to point us to originally.
But you insist on arguing against strawmen, so you ask:
But you never explain why acknowledging Israel's deep roots in colonialism and apartheid, and being opposed to their modern day consequences, means being opposed to the existence of Israel itself, unless you mean to say that there is no Israel without the subjugation of Palestinian and Israeli Arabs. When speaking of the U.S.'s own history of genocide and enslavement, for instance, we can both acknowledge that those practices were in some sense with us from well before the U.S. even came to be; we can observe and oppose how those practices continue to mark our society today; and we can do all that without opposing the existence of the U.S. itself. All we are saying is that the U.S. ought to be reformed. The same goes for Israel.
But setting that aside, your facile question is easily answered by anyone who has been following the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There are several ways to reform Israel, to remove its apartheid-like elements, without wiping it from the map. Speaking even incrementally, we could talk about a concerted effort to end de facto and de jure discrimination against Israeli Arabs; we could talk about ending the practice of cutting Palestinians off from their own resources in the OT and forcing them into homelessness through aggressive settlement policy; we could talk about normalizing relations so that commerce can occur across the border with Israeli businesses and citizens so that Palestinians are not reliant on international aid and the beneficence of Israeli politicians.
Or, more radically, we could talk about the increasingly inevitable one-state solution, and how that might work with a pluralistic society where Muslims and Jews have equal rights and equal protection of the laws.
Now - I realize, of course, why you don't want to engage with any of that reasonable-sounding business. Instead, you conflate a single-state solution where Israeli Jews, Muslims, and Christians all have equal civil rights and equal protection of the law with a "Palestinian Muslim-majority state," meaning to suggest by the conflation that people opposed to Israeli apartheid are in fact calling for the genocide of Israeli Jews. You recognize that what you and other commentators want, in Israel, is the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state, which is not possible without the systematic exclusion or discounting of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs from Israeli politics. The whole point of Israel, in your view, is to subjugate the Palestinians to a political and military regime where they have no power or control over their futures, except via emigration. That is what you want.
That is something that American supporters of Israel like to hide behind equivocal language, relying on Americans' typical ignorance of the details. And you are no different from the rest, in this respect. But underneath all of your caterwauling, your doth-protesting-too-muching, is that simple truth. The whole point of Israel, in your view, is the systematic subjugation of Palestinians, who must either be kept in a permanent state of second-class citizenship and population-controlled, or tossed out of the country and the OT altogether. You are the one calling for apartheid and genocide.
Right, and in opposing "the steal," Donald Trump is opposed not to democracy.
You never explain why killing all the Jews in Israel is not genocide. And that’s what you support. That's what you mean by "colonialism" and "apartheid": that Israel should not exist, and that Jews should not be allowed to live there. (Remember: that's explicit in the talk about "settlements": that the country belongs to Palestinians, and Jews should not be allowed to live there.)
I reject entirely your paraphrase of what I believe, but given your utter dishonesty in continuing to insist that SJP doesn't oppose Israel's existence, or even acknowledging that when it says Israeli apartheid it means Israel since its founding, despite my provision of direct evidence from its own Facebook page on that precise point, I don't believe it worthwhile to invest any energy is further dialogue.
Sure, David. The typical troll move, when they're boxed into a corner, is to flounce.
I went to the SJP's FB page. I found, yet again, that you are reading an enormous amount into their simple use of the word "apartheid." Read in context, any reasonable person would come away with the impression that they are objecting to an unjust present that is rooted in an unjust past. Nothing in the post you linked suggests to me - or I would contend, any reasonable, non-motivated reader - that they are calling for a Jewish genocide in Israel. Which is what you claim they are doing..
But, again, surely you understand all of this. You're a polemicist, not an idiot like Josh. So to a certain extent I realize I am talking to a caricature of a man, an empty vessel of pointless spite. Like so many conservatives these days.
You need to figure out how to respond to Simon, because he’s entirely right, and you dodging him makes it seem to the rest of us even more like he’s right.
For example, Simon agreed with you that when SJP talks about Israeli apartheid they mean Israel since its founding. He’s just not so stupid to think that means SJP’s goal is to go back in time and prevent the founding of Israel. Just because Israel has always been an apartheid state doesn’t mean it can’t stop being one.
If you can argue that what SJP really wants is the extermination of the Jews, then Simon can argue that what you really want is the subjugation of the Palestinians… and Simon’s argument is much more believable than yours since the subjugation of the Palestinians is what’s actually happening right now, unlike the extermination of the Jews which is a remote hypothetical at most.
No sane Israeli is going to negotiate a one state solution with a Jewish minority and rely on the good will of the majority, and no sane person would expect them to given the history of minorities in the Muslim Arab world, especially Jews themselves, and given the general fate of binational regimes. But more to the point SJP doesn’t itself condition its support for a one state solution on it being a liberal democracy protecting minority rights, and doesn’t criticize the likes of Hamas which is hardly a human rights model and oppressed the Pals themselves. So why should I have a debate as if their professed goal is something like Switzerland?
That sounds to me exactly like what Simon said you would say.
"You recognize that what you and other commentators want, in Israel, is the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state, which is not possible without the systematic exclusion or discounting of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs from Israeli politics."
No, I’m saying right now there is no Switzerland-style option, and the folks I’m criticizing aren’t purporting to advocate such an option, so some fanciful Switzerland option is entirely irrelevant to my criticism of SJp, with one caveat: there are those who believe that since Israel is fundamentally illegitimate, Israel has no right to self defense, so regardless of what the other side does, Israel’s only option short of ceasing to exist is to essentially announce Switzerland and hope for the best. Since I don’t believe israel is fundamentally illegitimate, I think that’s complete nonsense and ultimately in practice genocidal. I can therefore instead go with what you acknowledged: the situation is far from ideal, but “Palestine” replacing Israel would be much worse. I don’t need to find a way for Israel to unilaterally create a binational state or two state solution. The status quo is not only preferable to Palestine, it’s preferable to suicide followed by Palestine. When the Palestinian side gives up its fantasy that israeli Jews will eventually flee like the French from Algeria, things can move forward toward a permanent solution. Those who indulge Palestinian one state fantasies aren’t doing Palestinians any favors.
Still not seeing how that’s different from Simon’s quote. You want the continued existence of Israel “as a Jewish state,” as opposed to as “some fanciful Switzerland option.”
And SJP wants a one-state solution with a murderously corrupt sharia-based government. I know which of those is barely preferred by every sane person on the planet.
Professor Bernstein, a potential alternative to the polyanna 'Switzerland Option' (which will never, ever happen given palestinian antipathy toward Jews) is voluntary emigration to a third party country, along with a generous one-time payment. To me, voluntary emigration is much more humane as a policy than what is happening now. Provide a generous financial incentive to palestinians to voluntarily emigrate to third-party countries if they cannot abide the thought of a functioning, vibrant Israel. It just may be that Arab signatories to the Abraham Accords might be among the countries in the region willing to take in palestinian emigrants with the financial means to support themselves.
Truthfully, I don't see a two-state option where Israel survives, just given the geographies of Area A. Israel becomes militarily indefensible given the high grounds in parts of Area A, and close proximity to critical infrastructure (like airports for example). Martin Sherman has written about this repeatedly (the military aspects of what challenges would be confronted in a two-state scenario). Then layer the sophistication of missile/drone technology. That military reality is why I don't see a two-state solution happening. Israel will not commit suicide.
Some rough math. Arabs comprise roughly 20% of Israel's roughly 9MM people; a total pool of roughly 2MM palestinians (I know, I know...not all arabs in Israel are palestinian, just doing rough math here). In a voluntary emigration scenario, how many of that 2MM will voluntarily choose a generous one-time payment, leave Israel and build rewarding lives elsewhere? That number is not zero, and it is not 2MM. I do think the number that would take a generous one-time payment and voluntarily emigrate would be large enough to completely change the conversation about a two-state solution.
I didn't wade through the entire thread...did they find any SJP members supporting a two-state compromise?
No, but for the heck of it I wrote to SJP Berkeley Law's email address, figuring I'd give them the chance:
SJP poobahs,
I've been giving you a hard time for the boycott of "speakers that have expressed and continued to hold views … in support of Zionism, the apartheid state of Israel, and the occupation of Palestine."
I interpret "support of Zionism" to mean "support for Israel's continued existence, including within its 1967 borders." I interpret "apartheid state of Israel" to mean "Israel," on the theory that you believe that Israel has always been an apartheid state. I interpret "occupation of Palestine" to include all of what is now Israel plus the West Bank and Gaza.
If I am wrong on any of these points, and your boycott does not include, e.g., someone who supports Israel's existence on the 67 lines, I will happily publish a public correction. If I don't hear back, I will assume that my assumptions as reflected in this email and my posts are correct.
Christ. If they have any sense they'd toss this stupid email straight in the trash. They owe you a response even less than they owe Chemerinsky.
Of course, that won't stop you from claiming that they essentially are conceding you're right, from a non-response. But it's best to let you stew in your own juices. They don't need to provide red meat for you to pulverize.
Lol. You’re funny.
And you're pathetic. It is extremely unseemly to spend as much time and energy as you have done on the SJP and its members - going so far as to try to googlebomb their chances at post-law school employment here on the VC - and it sullies your other work. I'd have no reason to second-guess your extensive writing on racial classifications, for instance, had I not become so familiar with your equivocations and dodges on this subject. But now I'm skeptical it's worth the time to read.
I plead guilty of having little patience for genocidal antisemites, and their apologists line you.
Simon is a "progressive." He can't help himself.
I feel like you two actually got to the core of the matter: David feels like an officially Jewish state is the only way to protect Jews in the region, and Simon’s interpretation of SJP is that an officially Jewish state will always, essentially be definition, be oppressive towards Arabs.
Maybe you’re both right.
But it’s possible to acknowledge this core conundrum without calling your opponents genocidal.
But they don’t think that an officially Muslim Palestinian state will be oppressive, in part because they indulge a historical fantasy about Arab Muslim/Jewish relations before Zionism, and in part because they think that as settler colonialists Jews have no rights to begin with. In any event, very few Arab Israelis have any desire to live in a future”Palestine” so the oppressiveness of Israel to them relative to what they expect from a future Palestine is apparently rather low. Right now they have freedom of speech and religion, and live in a country governed by the rule if law. They don’t have to do army service, and they get affirmative action in done professions like medicine. No one is trying to force them to become Jews or to give up Arabic language and culture. Apparently, they prefer that to living in a kleptocracy or worse that happens to be governed by Arabs. I’m sure they’d even more like to live in Switzerland by the Med, but that’s not on the table.
But they don’t think that an officially Muslim Palestinian state will be oppressive
Exactly. So they might be stupid, but they're not genocidal.
They're just genocide-adjacent, given how minorities like the Druze, Yazidis, and Christians, have been treated in many neighboring countries that adopt the policies that SJP favors.
Randal, I don't think very many Jews are going to sign up for 'dhimmitude lite' in a muslim palestinian state. Just look at how various minorities are treated by those muslim palestinians; homosexuals, as one example. Do I really need to link to pictures of homosexuals being thrown off building rooftops or hung on cranes in Gaza (that muslim palestinians currently 'run')?
That is what it will ultimately come down to: What will be the rights and privileges of Jews and other minorities who live in a muslim palestinian state (assuming the two-state solution you advocate)? It doesn't look very appealing to me. Much less appealing than current Israeli policy today, in fact.
"But they don’t think that an officially Muslim Palestinian state will be oppressive
Exactly. So they might be stupid, but they’re not genocidal."
Not quite, because part of the reason they don't think it will be oppressive is because settler colonialists aren't entitled to any rights, you can't oppress them simply by, eg., expelling them.
Expelling them is still different than genociding them.
I'll grant that a just resolution of the Israeli/Palestinian question can seem pollyanna-ish, from where we currently sit. There is a tremendous animosity between the two peoples, borne of generations of tit-for-tat violence and repression; the Israelis can't shake their Netanyahu stench and they lack a reliable, principled, competent, and non-corrupt partner leading the Palestinians; Israel is surrounded by Muslim or Arab nations that have their own interests in the conflict and their own domestic audiences to appease; and then you have the U.S. with its thumb on the scales. And I certainly don't expect Israel to come up with and implement a solution unilaterally.
My point is just to establish, first, what a just outcome looks like. Once that is identified, we can work out the difficult path on getting there - which includes identifying the steps being taken now that make getting there far more difficult (e.g., settlement activity, blockades of Gaza that serve little security purpose, freezing aid, etc.).
Because, to be clear - a single state solution is coming. The question is whether that looks more like Israel slowly absorbing the West Bank, pushing Palestinians living there into walled pockets of poverty and despair from which there is little escape except to other nations willing to take them, or it looks a political system, based on a grand (if hard to see from here) bargain, where everyone living in Israel can live together in peace.
I want the latter. You want the former. You just realize that it's still (for now) beyond the pale for you to say that out loud.
Much more realistic that the Palestinians in the West Bank will eventually confederate with Jordan. And even if that's not much more realistic in practice, it's much more likely to work.
You think it's "realistic" that Israel will accept Jordan sovereignty over the West Bank, right up to Jerusalem?
But I would agree that combination makes more sense, culturally speaking, if it were consistent with what Palestinians themselves wanted. Something tells me you would want this to be a kind of "top-down" decision, though.
And Egypt gets Gaza? This is the three-state solution.
Realistic? Compared to what? Compared to there being a one-state solution that neither side wants, and that neither side would be willing to be the minority in? (Almost not Palestinian one-staters, for example, would accept a state without Gaza plus a right of return, because otherwise Palestinians would be the minority.) So, let's just go with "relatively realistic." And there is no inherent reason that this solution would have to include every inch of the territory acquired by Israel in 1967.
Similarly, when the Volokh Conspirators duck my questions and assertions about their embrace, flattery, and cultivation (as fans) of racists, gay-bashers, white nationalists, Islamophobes, white supremacists, misogynists, and other right-wing bigots, it demonstrates that my observations are correct.
Carry on, cowards. So far as ugly, stale conservative thinking can carry anyone in modern, improving, liberal-libertarian America.
A Palestinian nationalist one-stater, that is.
Prediction: 7 - 10 days before Prof. Bernstein dies, there will be a headline about a bomb or some explosion in Israel or "Palestine" (or whatever we're calling those areas).
BTW, this prediction will hold true for my death, all of yours, our great-grandchildren, well into the 22nd century, etc. . . .
I mentioned this in a sub-convo above, but if you read Martin Gilbert's book "In Ishmael's House", you can summarise it as Jews experiencing a thousand years of Jim Crow under Arab/Muslim governance. I have occasionally asked the question, as a deliberate debating trick, "there's a minority group in the ME, numbering a few million, which has been treated like second-class citizens - or worse - for generations. Their holy places were under the control of occupiers. Don't they deserve their own state?" The recipient of the question, thinking that I must be talking about Palestinians, will say yes. And then I will say, "I was talking about Jews." How quickly they will go back on their agreement,
Another question I ask - and it's worth asking people in general when the subject of Zionism/Israel comes up, even if the people you're talking to are not anti-Zionists but don't have much knowledge of how we got here, is, "how many Jews are there in the world?" Typical answers range from 100 million to 250 million. When people find out it's only 16 or 17 million, they get a better understanding of why Israel.
Imagine a *pro*-gay rights group got other organizations to sign a pledge that they will not invite any speak or any topic who professes to *oppose* the right of same-sex couples to marry. I am confident that very few people in academia would even think that proposal was controversial. Heck, I doubt there would be much controversy if student groups required speakers certify that they *support* same-sex marriage (you know, the kind of loyalty oath we naively thought had gone out of fashion in the 50s).
Loyalty oaths are no difficult to find, at least not in some of the lower-quality, right-wing corners of academia.
Why do better Americans tolerate accreditation of these nonsense-teaching, bigoted, shit-rate institutions?
When America's liberal-libertarian mainstream stops providing military, economic, and political support to people who engaged in right-wing belligerence and cuddled with the likes of Donald Trump, Israel's supports can seek support and comfort from conservatives such as Doug Mastriano.
The agnostic in me is a bit curious to see just how much evangelicals' thoughts and prayers would be worth to an Israel that has lost American support.
Good luck with that one, clingers!
We’ve already established in previous threads that you have not read the book and therefore have no idea what you’re talking about. You also repeatedly insisted that by apartheid Israel SJP did not mean Israel as such and it would be nice to acknowledge that you were completely wrong. The common thread is you expressing strong but baseless opinions.
"Let’s assume for the sake of argument that there is something inherently wrong with having one tiny country devoted to preserving and protecting a people"....after those people have suffered from one of the largest episodes of ethnic cleansing in the modern era, where more than 6 million individuals rounded up and executed due to their ethnicity....
Let's NOT assume a racist bias.
But this commenter just loves to make excuses for anti-Semites
“We have a positive marginalization balance” only works until you don’t. It’s been 75 years of oppressing Arabs. How much more do you think you have remaining in your account?
(I don't think two wrongs make a right anyway, but even if you do, I feel like there has to be some limiting principle.)
"75 years of oppressing Arabs"
There's a lot wrong with that, in multiple contexts. Let's just focus on one for now...
6 Million Jews rounded up and exterminated. Versus.
An inter-ethnic conflict that resulted in 91,361 Arabs dying (compared to 24,981 Jews).
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-casualties-arab-israeli-conflict
I'd say...they have a lot more.
It's calling out Israel and Jews in particular. I know a Palestinian from Jordan who can tell you all about his and nearby Palestinian villages there bulldozed under.
Other nearby countries realized they could use it to their advantage to turn hatred against Israel.
Let us assume for the sake of argument, many westerners wear their virtue signalling badge, while keeping their mind on the straight and narrow with the expressions the post mentions, that it's about the Palestinian area and Israel's behavior there.
You are being used, folks. Are the concerns legitimate? From your point of view, perhaps. From the larger picture, methinks thou doest protest too much. Perhaps inadvertantly.
"But Israel is free and a democracy, and the only one in the region, so they can do better. We don't expect much from the surrounding tyrants!"
And you don't expect much from the proposed Palestine, either. On the day it is created, you and millions around the world will cheer...anybody? Anybody?
Yes, the creation of a new kleptocracy.
I would hope I am wrong. I doubt it.
You should read "In Ishmael's House" by Martin Gilbert. Basically, Jews experienced 1,000 years of Jim Crow in Arab/Muslim lands. If the Holocaust had never happened, what was done to Jews in the M.E. would have been sufficient justification for the establishment of Israel.
Thar Zionism was started by a secular European Jew and Israel's founding was largely due to European Jews shouldn't obscure this.
Every time the Palestinians launch one of their rockets, the account resets. They're never getting out of that negative balance until they've gone a few years without doing stuff like that.
The jews have palistine from taking territory after being attacked by Arabs. The Arabs launched an offensive war lost territory and now a bitching to get it back
Thank you for exposing yourself as a bigoted idiot. Muted.
Kind of like the way the Volokh Conspiracy appeases, flatters, attracts, and makes excuses for white nationalists, racists, white supremacists, and other right-wing bigots?
"let's not assume racist bias"
Followed up with
"the stupid kikes need to be booted and exterminated"
Well, you're here Rev.
Like Rev himself. I mean, if I had banned some troll from my website years ago, I would make sure that bigot did not break multiple rules and laws by posting again. However that is just me, and the law, the Conspiracy is open to allow even those who have been banned to break the law and post again even against the rules.
I’d say…they have a lot more.
You go, Jews! Just 5,908,369 Arabs left to murder before you're even.
This sounds like a problem for a strong Constitution.
Then it doesn't fucking *matter* what religion the people voting are, particularly if you put a "no religious shit" clause in said Constitution.
The word "murder" doesn't mean what you pretend to believe it means.
Sigh...
"Murder"?
Again, the two issues aren't really comparable. The Holocaust was straight out murder, no one doubts that. Literally innocent people rounded up, put in camps, and killed.
The Israeli-Arab conflict is not murder, and nothing like that at all. In fact, if you looked at the link I provided, it included items like the 19,000 Arabs who died in the 1973 war. That was a legitimate war of self defense, where Israel was defending itself from an invasion from its Arab neighbors.
The fact your conflating the two somehow shows amazing bias.
The tedious shit should be Whack-a-Moled as often as necessary and his posts deleted on sight.
I continue to be amazed at what you’re objecting to… and not objecting to… in this conversation. So let’s keep it going!
Ok Jews, just 5,908, 369 Arabs left to kill for you to get even with Hitler!
Just for the record...
You're equating deaths from the literal armies of armed Arab soldiers that stormed Israel from Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, and Syria...and the fact that in order to save their lives and country, the Israelis needed to defend themselves with lethal force.
To the deaths that resulted from the Holocaust, where the Nazis rounded up and killed unarmed civilians....
I'm not equating them. I'm just exploring what you meant when you said
6 Million Jews rounded up and exterminated. Versus.
An inter-ethnic conflict that resulted in 91,361 Arabs dying
You're using the former to justify the latter, so, if the Jews aren't "equal" to the Arabs, how much are they worth relative to each other?