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Government's Argument Against Unsealing Mar-A-Lago Search Warrant Affidavit
The search warrant and some related materials have been unsealed—but the affidavit is where the details on the justifications for the search would be, and the government says this has to remain secret, at least for now.
From the Government's Response to Motions to Unseal; I hope to also blog the media entities' replies when they are filed:
On August 8, 2022, the Department of Justice executed a search warrant at the premises located at 1100 S. Ocean Blvd., Palm Beach, Florida 33480, a property of former President Donald J. Trump. Given the circumstances presented in this matter and the public interest in transparency, and in the wake of the former President's public confirmation of the search and his representatives' public characterizations of the materials sought, the government moved to unseal the search warrant, its attachments, and the Property Receipt summarizing materials seized, which motion this Court granted. Those docketed items, which had already been provided to the former President's counsel upon execution of the warrant, have now appropriately been made public.
The affidavit supporting the search warrant presents a very different set of considerations. There remain compelling reasons, including to protect the integrity of an ongoing law enforcement investigation that implicates national security, that support keeping the affidavit sealed. {The government has carefully considered whether the affidavit can be released subject to redactions. For the reasons discussed below, the redactions necessary to mitigate harms to the integrity of the investigation would be so extensive as to render the remaining unsealed text devoid of meaningful content, and the release of such a redacted version would not serve any public interest. Nevertheless, should the Court order partial unsealing of the affidavit, the government respectfully requests an opportunity to provide the Court with proposed redactions.} …
"In the Eleventh Circuit, potential prejudice to an ongoing criminal investigation represents a compelling government interest that justifies the closure of judicial records." In Valenti, for example, the Eleventh Circuit concluded that the district court properly denied a newspaper's motion to unseal transcripts from closed court proceedings "as a necessary means to achieving the government's compelling interest in the protection of a continuing law enforcement investigation." As Judge Jordan explained in the context of one "highly-publicized criminal case," there are compelling reasons not to release non-public information in an ongoing investigation that could "compromise the investigation and might . . . lead to the destruction of evidence." Even when the public is already aware of the general nature of the investigation, revealing the specific contents of a search warrant affidavit could alter the investigation's trajectory, reveal ongoing and future investigative efforts, and undermine agents' ability to collect evidence or obtain truthful testimony. In addition to the implications for the investigation, the release of this type of investigative material could have "devastating consequences" for the reputations and rights of individuals whose actions and statements are described. For these reasons, courts in this jurisdiction have consistently denied motions to unseal investigative records—including search warrant affidavits—in ongoing criminal investigations….
Here, the government has a compelling, overriding interest in preserving the integrity of an ongoing criminal investigation…. From [earlier] disclosures, the public is now aware of, among other things, the potential criminal statutes at issue in this investigation, see D.E. 17:4 (Attachment B to the search warrant) (permitting the government to seize materials "constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of crime, or other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 793, 2071, or 1519"), and the general nature of the items seized, including documents marked as classified, see D.E. 17:5-7 (Property Receipt). The government determined that these materials could be released without significant harm to its investigation because the search had already been executed and publicly acknowledged by the former President, and because the materials had previously been provided to the former President through counsel.
Disclosure at this juncture of the affidavit supporting probable cause would, by contrast, cause significant and irreparable damage to this ongoing criminal investigation. As the Court is aware from its review of the affidavit, it contains, among other critically important and detailed investigative facts: highly sensitive information about witnesses, including witnesses interviewed by the government; specific investigative techniques; and information required by law to be kept under seal pursuant to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e). If disclosed, the affidavit would serve as a roadmap to the government's ongoing investigation, providing specific details about its direction and likely course, in a manner that is highly likely to compromise future investigative steps. In addition, information about witnesses is particularly sensitive given the high-profile nature of this matter and the risk that the revelation of witness identities would impact their willingness to cooperate with the investigation. {This is not merely a hypothetical concern, given the widely reported threats made against law enforcement personnel in the wake of the August 8 search.} Disclosure of the government's affidavit at this stage would also likely chill future cooperation by witnesses whose assistance may be sought as this investigation progresses, as well as in other high-profile investigations. The fact that this investigation implicates highly classified materials further underscores the need to protect the integrity of the investigation and exacerbates the potential for harm if information is disclosed to the public prematurely or improperly.
{Given that the Court is considering motions to unseal this affidavit merely days after reviewing these materials and approving the warrant application, the government is mindful that this Court is familiar with the highly sensitive contents of the affidavit and the specific harms that would result from its unsealing. However, if the Court would like the government to file a sealed ex parte supplement that addresses with more specificity the contents of the affidavit and the harms identified in this response, the government stands ready to do so.} …
Further, and in view of what the government has already moved to make public, there is no "less onerous alternative to sealing" the affidavit. Unlike the Property Receipt—which the government moved to unseal subject to minor redactions, including to protect the identity of law enforcement officials—the affidavit cannot responsibly be unsealed in a redacted form absent redactions that would be so extensive as to render the document devoid of content that would meaningfully enhance the public's understanding of these events beyond the information already now in the public record. There is simply no alternative to sealing that could ensure the integrity of the government's investigation and that would prevent the inevitable efforts to read between the lines and discern the identities of certain individuals, dates, or other critical, case-specific information.
The case law cited by the intervenors is readily distinguishable. Many of those cases involved unsealing requests made well after charges were filed. See, e.g., United States v. Peterson, 627 F. Supp. 2d 1359, 1374 (M.D. Ga. 2008) ("Defendant is already under indictment"); United States v. Shenberg, 791 F. Supp. 292, 293 & n.1 (S.D. Fla. 1991) (defendants were already under indictment, and charges were "well known and have been extensively reported by the media"); United States v. Vives, No. 02-20030 CR, 2006 WL 3792096 (S.D. Fla. Dec. 21, 2006). In other cited cases that involved requests to unseal warrants in the investigation phase—in other words, before any charges—the court ultimately concluded that the government's compelling interest in protecting the integrity of its investigation outweighed any public right of access. E.g., In re Search Warrant for Secretarial Area Outside Off. of Gunn, 855 F.2d 569, 574 (8th Cir. 1988) (rejecting disclosure request); Bennett, 2013 WL 3821625 (same); Patel, 2019 WL 4251269, at *4 ("The Court finds that unsealing the underlying [search warrant] affidavit and related documents would severely prejudice the Government's ongoing investigation"); In re Search of Wellcare Health Plans, Inc., No. 8:07-MJ-1466-TGW, 2007 WL 4240740, at *2 (M.D. Fla. Nov. 28, 2007) ("The protection of this continuing law enforcement investigation is a compelling governmental interest that outweighs the public's interest in immediate access to" the warrant affidavit). And in In re Four Search Warrants, 945 F. Supp. 1563 (N.D. Ga. 1996), involving the 1996 Atlanta Olympic bombing investigation, "the criminal investigation into [the search subject's] participation in the bombing ha[d] ended" and he was "no longer considered a suspect" by the time the media sought the search warrant materials. Unsurprisingly, none of these cases concerned circumstances remotely similar to these—where there is an active investigation and a search was executed just days ago. Thus, while the intervenors quote these opinions for general principles about the right of access, the actual application of those principles in those cases favors the government's position here.
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It would be an interesting experiment if Trump actually did shoot someone on Fifth Avenue just to see how his cultists would spin it.
“BUT HILLARY!”
“BUT HUNTER!”
“I don’t believe the mainstream media!”
“It’s a hoax!”
“This is just a smear by those pedophile grooming Democrats.”
Any I missed?
Oh, wait, I forgot:
“HE’S OWNING THE LIBS!”
Sure: Trump didn't do it, but the person deserved it anyway, and Trump had every right to do it
Kind of like the farmer who loaned a goat to his neighbor.
"If Trump hadn't shot the person first, the Democrats would have. He had to."
Dick Chaney actually did shoot somebody, no jail time.
That entire administration started a ruinous war based on deliberately falsified intelligence. No jail time.
"deliberately falsified intelligence."
Quite a dubious charge except for the sole insider with a conflict of interest in Iraqi politics that the US seemed to have.
I certainly would buy "highly suspect," unsubstantiated" or other descriptors.
They deliberately falsified the intelligence to justify a war. My, how old crimes fade. Why anyone would trust a Republican administration or even a single Republican politician about anything is beyond me.
"They deliberately falsified the intelligence to justify a war."
You have proof of deliberate falsification? Really?
Your memory and politics are embellishing the truth.
Jesus, that's an amazing memory-hole.
I am still waiting for your evidence of deliberate falsification.
Put up or shut up
For fuck's sake, really? I mean, really?
"I don't like that he shot someone, but I like his 'policies.'"
Krychek_2 : "Any I missed?"
Brett has repeatedly insisted he finds no ethical issues in the Trump phone calls (Zelensky & Raffensperger). With that degree of willed blindness, I picture him as witness to the Fifth Avenue shooting. Here he recounts what he saw to the cops :
Well, yes officer, I did see Trump pull out a handgun; and I did hear him yell "Die, Loser!" as he aimed at the victim; and I did hear the sound of a gunshot; and I did see the victim collapse bleeding from a wound, but I didn't actually see the bullet go from gun to the victim, so there's no way to know for sure if Trump shot him.
Cult evidentiary standards get awfully strict when the Great Orange One is involved
I lost interest in -- and respect for -- Birther Brett's views on evidence long ago.
Exactly right.
They are cultists, every one.
Bernard,
Is "cultists" the new word of the month for the left, replacing "conspiracy theorists" and "fascists"?
It would be interesting if leftists could spend even one day without making up stories.
It’s so sickening to see Democrats cheer on what is obvious political prosecution.
I wouldn’t piss on any of you vile subhumans if you were on fire.
" I wouldn’t piss on any of you vile subhumans if you were on fire. "
This contribution to the discussion (conducted in compliance with Prof. Volokh's claimed civility standards, of course) establishes that Adam Bies did not use the screen name BravoCharlieDelta at the Volokh Conspiracy.
It remains embarrassing that Eugene applied his civility policy in the nakedly partisan manner he did. And as a free speech advocate...I mean, his blog, so no First Amendment....but the principle of the thing. It's gross. A man of character would apologize.
Several of this blog's impositions of viewpoint-driven censorship still stand to this day -- and I am complying with them.
His playground, his rules.
Faux libertarian hypocrites have rights, too.
Not at all surprising though.
Yet I'd piss on you in the same situation, Charlie. Not only would I get to see you burn to death while screaming for medical science's masked intervention...but...I'd also get to piss on you at the same time. You should rethink this
As if you’d bother to roll out of your beanbag chair to take a piss…
I posted on this before. All of the opinions on these kinds of motions, including in the 11th CIrcuit go the same way.
(1) There is a 1st Amendment and/or a Constitutional right to inspect documents that are "judicial documents," meaning documents that a Court relied or considered in issuing a ruling.
(2) Warrant affidavits/declarations are such documents.
(3) The government therefore has the burden of showing a compelling reason to keep them sealed.
(4) The government says there is an ongoing investigation that might be compromised if released, so the Court is not releasing it.
One has the impression that the govt. gets a lot of leeway on (4). We will see if this one deviates, but I doubt it.
Query: other than there is an "ongoing investigation" (which can be forever, since no one may ever be indicated), what bad things would happen if the affidavits/declarations were released? That's is where I think the govt.'s feet should be held to the fire.
"Constitutional" should read "common law."
I curse the lack of an edit function "with a grievous curse."
Bored Lawyer : I curse the lack of an edit function "with a grievous curse."
My take is this : We should all come together - wild-eyed lefties & zombie-undead rightists alike - and boycott this forum until the Man bows to our demand for an edit function. A few days of tumbleweeds rolling thru empty comment sections and this Volokh guy will see he can't oppress us any longer. Commenters of the world unite!
(I just fear he'd bring in scabs to replace us)
I just fear we are the scabs.
Bots. Talking to each other.
Maybe we're all some purposeless AI program, nattering away to no particular end. However this one bot is gonna be backpacking the Kundsleden in Sweden by weeks-end, hiking above the Arctic Circle. So there is that.....
Nice!
I think it's explained pretty well in general terms in the government's brief. And they explicitly say they are willing to file a sealed brief explaining precisely why in this case identifying the names of informers, the pertinent dates, the surveillance/investigative methods, etc., would be harmful in this particular case.
But the argument is inherently plausible. These motions always lead to one outcome because, almost by definition, disclosing these to the general public and defense counsel would hamper the investigation.
They absolutely should be made public once the investigation is over/charges brought, and any intentional falsehood or fabrication should be dealt with extremely harshly, precisely because there is a certain amount of good faith required to grant them in the absence of an adversarial (or at least open to the public) process. Violations of that good faith are an attack on the justice system, in my opinion, and should result in harsh consequences. (The guy who altered the email in the third Carter Page FISA warrant application got off too easy, for all the damage he did.)
But the argument is inherently plausible. These motions always lead to one outcome because, almost by definition, disclosing these to the general public and defense counsel would hamper the investigation.
True, but the point is the Govt. should bear a heavier burden than that. In civil procedure terms, plausible gets you past a motion to dismiss. It does not get you a preliminary injunction. Sealing court documents should require the Govt. to do more than plausible.
The guy who altered the email in the third Carter Page FISA warrant application got off too easy, for all the damage he did.
I read somewhere that the guy got his law license back after a short suspension. That's insane, in my opinion. He forged evidence on an ex parte proceeding to a secret court. No judge should trust him on anything, ever.
I read somewhere that the guy got his law license back after a short suspension. That's insane, in my opinion. He forged evidence on an ex parte proceeding to a secret court. No judge should trust him on anything, ever.
This. This. And this again.
NOVA Lawyer, is it the case that the FBI submitted false affidavits to the FISA Court on multiple occasions in just the last five years? I think Judge Collyer had much to say on that topic.
If so, why should any judge trust any submission by the FBI?
It does not get you a preliminary injunction. Sealing court documents should require the Govt. to do more than plausible.
This is where the Court should do its job. It probably should ask for the under seal breakdown offered by the government. But it's hard to imagine how they won't be able to make the required showing. Probably, just like warrants in the first place, courts rubber stamp these things too often. But it's partly because the chance of finding something squirrelly are so low. Of course, regularly giving scrutiny would help keep fabrications, etc. low.
But here, it's unimaginable to me that they could unseal the affidavit without harming the investigation, to include putting the witness's life at risk. On the other hand, I do support the Senate Intelligence committee looking at the affidavit, as they have the necessary clearance. Of course, there is the potential for leaks, but I think Senators Warner and Rubio (the former particularly) are serious enough people that they would abide by the terms of the disclosure.
Of course, I have no faith that the cultists would accept Senators Warner and Rubio assuring them the affidavit has legit probable cause. They'll still demand it be made public.
NOVA Lawyer:
I believe you earned a prize for preeminent prognostication. How can I get it to you?
Contact me here and we can arrange the prize exchange:
novalawyer20036 at proton dot me.
And thanks for your diligence. lol
I can't remember the prize, but I figure a $100 gift card should cover it. Plus some first-rate beer, if geography cooperates. Maybe a hat, too. Prof. Kerr seemed to like his hat.
Thanks, Art. A hat and a beer, if possible, would be great. If it's good enough for Orin, it's certainly too good for me. But I'll take it. I am happy for the gift card to go to your favorite charity. I trust your judgment.
I won a bet on here against someone (not you) on coronavirus predictions, but too lazy to track it down. I hope he did the honorable thing and donated to a charity as we agreed.
I sent a message.
Worse for the FBI, they have a documented history of lying on affidavits. Why should we believe the FBI this time? Burden of proof is on the FBI to prove this is legitimate.
I mean, it isn't.
"Burden of proof is on the FBI to prove this is legitimate."
A search conducted pursuant to a warrant is presumed to be legitimate, and the burden of proving illegitimacy or irregularity of the search and/or the warrant is on the party challenging the validity of the search.
The thing is, the government makes pretty clear that (in its view) sealing isn't just about protecting witnesses. And it sure makes it sound like this isn't just about recovering documents. If that's all the search were about, then, well, it would be pretty much over by now.
Someone last week — not sure if it was Popehat or another — posited an alternate explanation for the timing of the search. The original idea people had was that it was about an urgent need to recover stolen classified material. But Popehat/whomever pointed out another possibility: that this was the penultimate step (or near to it) in a grand jury investigation, with the last step being indictment, and that they executed the search to wrap up that process.
Interesting theory. So what further investigation would be impeded by a release under this scenario? The grand jury will have all the materials and can indict to its heart's content.
Penultimate is not the ultimate. Close isn't finished.
The walls are closing in!!!1 This time for sure!!eleven!
"what bad things would happen if the affidavits/declarations were released"
Victims of constitutionally abusive searches might get enough information to expose the investigators' perjury on the warrant affidavit before the statute of limitations is up.
What facts underlie your suggestion of perjury by investigators on the affidavit? The statute of limitations therefor is five years -- it doesn't expire until August of 2027.
I was responding to a what could happen question. The facts could be anything.
And if it were anybody but the president, I'd say, "Fine." But we need all the information as citizens of an (ostenslibly) free land to make sure this isn't a political prosecution.
You don't get to filtch through papers until you find something to tag them with. Yes, this even includes actual crime. Kings of yore knew they could always find something if they looked closely enough, like a police officer who claims he can find a reason to pull you over if he follows you long enough.
1) It's not, in fact, the president.
2) You do get to "filtch [sic] through papers" if you have a search warrant issued by a judge.
By the way, another Trump claim seems factually-challenged:
Trump lied? Pass the smelling salts.
Of course, Trump lies about every silly little thing. As opposed to, say, Obama, who only lies about things like whether you can keep your Doctor if you like your Doctor.
There is a difference.
Not that I support those policy spins, but you'll recall that Republicans made exactly the mirror claim (pre-existing conditions will still be covered even when we remove the requirement that insurance companies cover them, even though of course that's not how economics works). Obama's statement was technically true if the policy didn't change. It was a lie because everyone, Obama included, knew policies are updated every year and so the vast majority wouldn't qualify for the keep your doctor provision.
On the other hand, his statement was true for something like 95% of people who had insurance already.
Regardless, it's chutzpah to pretend Trump's lies ("Stolen election") are somehow on par with overselling a policy proposal.
As one whose premium Blue Cross Blue Shield policy was cancelled, I can tell you it was a lie.
They sent us a letter, saying "because of a few tweaks required by law, we are cancelling your policy. Here is a new, compliant one with skyrocketted costs!"
BCBS struggled to not lose money. They had to accept all comers, meaning people without insurance and high costs, as the price of being non-profit and avoiding taxes.
This was becoming untenable as their rate increases were limited by same. But now there was nothing holding them back anymore as for-profits had to accept all as well.
This was a problem to be sure, but as sure as holy hell was not just "a yearly update occuring regularly anyway."
It was exactly the opposite. They used the excuse of a handful of inconsequential coverage requirement additions to abandon gold standard BCBS coverage.
Nothing you said conflicts with what I said. I pointed out that, as a practical matter, the promise that you could keep your same coverage was not true. Hence, it was a lie. As I said, exactly the same sort of lie Republicans told about getting rid of protections for pre-existing conditions.
Which is not to defend Obama's lie, but to point out is a different sort of lie from "stolen election" and the like. Overselling policy is something politicians shouldn't do, but routinely do. Straight up lying about election results, that is a direct assault on the Constitution.
I'm certain you understand the difference between it's-a-political-lie and it's-a-mentally-ill-person's lie.
I wouldn't have voted for the mentally ill Trump had he run as a liberal (he could have given his only policies he cares about are being against immigration and free trade, the latter of which is popular among many Democrats). But, I gave him a chance when he took office. From Day One with the lie about the inauguration crowd size (no big deal) to the end with the lie about the election (the biggest of deals in an attack on our democracy) he proved he was unfit. I remain flabbergasted that so many people stand by him that he might be reelected in 2024.
That's the thing. It is understandable, if not justifiable, why someone would like to get themselves out of a jam, to prevent harm to someone or something he cares about, or for some other reason in which the lie at least makes rational sense.
But Trump lies when there's no reason to. Nobody gave a crap about the size of his inaugural crowd. It's almost as if he prefers lying to telling the truth.
As for him getting reelected in 2024, my assessment is that the 30% of the country that's his hard core base may be enough to get him the GOP nomination, but the remaining 70% of the country just wants him gone at this point. And that's not enough to win in November, even given that the electoral college tilts the scale in his favor.
Bored Lawyer : "Of course, Trump lies about every silly little thing"
Of course. A timeline :
(1) January: The National Archives retrieves 15 boxes of documents that should have gone to the National Archives when Trump left the White House. Some are classified.
(2) Early Spring : Trump negotiates with DOJ over their ongoing investigation into his handling of official documents.
(3) Late Spring : Trump receives a grand jury subpoena from this inquiry. In response, his lawyers turn over surveillance footage showing who had access to the area where the documents had been previously stored.
(4) Early June : Jay Bratt, chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section of the DOJ’s national security team, meets with Trump lawyers at Mar-a-Lago. They sign a statement saying all classified material has been returned.
(5) A confidential informant tells the DOJ that Trump is still hiding boxes of classified documents.
BTW, B.L., the surveillance cameras that you were so concerned about were not shut down.
Per one of Trump's lawyers, he watched almost the whole thing on CCTV.
Mar A Lago really is just one huge golf-course-sized-and-shaped security hole.
Ah, so they took them and then shredded/otherwise discarded them.
Occam would gently suggest they avoided the much stronger denial symmetrical to the allegation, "the FBI did not take . . ." for a reason.
The passports were among the documents they took, they returned them.
Are you at all embarrassed that you jumped to the absurd idea that the FBI would have shredded or discarded anyone's passports, much less a former President's passports, rather than return them?
Jumping to the most outlandish interpretation of events possible isn't a good look.
Actually I feel wonderful, since I was absolutely correct about the word games. They shamelessly said they didn't have them, when it turns out reality was that they played hot potato with them to another agency so the cowardly representation could be ever-so-technically true.
Oh, and "rather than return them" just doesn't compute. I had no reason to take a position on whether they would do so, since they flat-out denied they had them.
Or maybe not. The DOJ is now saying that they actually did take passports, but now they've given them back because they're not subject to the warrant.
Um, don't jump the gun. WaPo 15 minutes ago said "offered to give back".
In any event, apparently the winner for interpretations of the cowardly phrase "FBI is not in possession of" per my above post is "FBI gave them to DOJ."
Somebody isn't particularly proud of what happened here, or they'd cheerfully own it.
This is a pretty weak defense of Trump. Marginal changes in phrasing doesn’t make his melodramatic buckshot anymore than a false claim of persecution.
People up-thread said Trump was lying about the passports based on yet another affirmatively misleading claim by the FBI, but the important thing is that someone quibbled over whether the DOJ had actually returned the passports when they had merely offered to return them, huh?
"False claim" is a pretty brash play when they actually did take the passports.
Based in the timeline, Trump appears to have found out about the passports from the FBI offering to give them back.
This is a pretty different story than the one Trump put out, and which you are defending with your usual pedantry.
"Appears to" is doing a metric ton of work there -- particularly coming from the dude who routinely takes others around here to task for mind reading.
It is still of concern.
A government takes passports to stop someone from leaving the country. It is also de rigeur for dictatorships and nasty bosses of imported maids.
They had no need of them otherwise, and could not fail to recognize them in hand. They probably have 8 million scanned pdfs of his already, if they even do, as it's all computerized and in the system anyway.
So why take them otherwise? Accidentally? Doubtful. To stop him leaving? Is there something they know that we don't?
And when pondering if that even is a valid thing sans court order, say oops and give them back?
Again, this is not some yokel. This is a former president of whom political opposition has shown no need or constraint to go after him as a political opponent.
So even though they unsealed the warrant, nobody read it.
The passports were responsive to the warrant as issued. The officers executing the warrant follow the warrant. They don't do the filtering. That happens later.
Maybe you think the warrant was overbroad, but you'd have to have read it to think that.
If you're too ignorant to read the search warrant, then you're too ignorant to open your mouth here and complain about stupid shit that reading the warrant would've prevented your peanut-brain from inventing in the first place.
David helpfully quoted the warrant up above. Maybe close your mouth for a few moments and go read what they were instructed to take.
And you apologize to Trump for doubting him …? Because you’re such a standup guy?
One could have taken them back, but instead doesn’t mention that whole thing?
You do see how deceitful that is, yes?
Are those even sentences? Communication fail.
No apology for false and malicious claims against Trump from David Nieporent.
No surprise.
This is how we all know you guys have no principles and only pretend to believe in anything to launch attacks.
You and many others go off the news story at the time as the reporting evolves. That’s not best practice, but trying,to shame someone for it is ridiculous coming from you.
Not exactly news. If the government, no matter who, no matter when, actually did divulge the affidavit and supporting proof, it would be unusual to the point of being bizarre. One doesn't do that. It causes witnesses to flee, evidence to get burnt.
The government is not divulging anything, it is opposing a motion to unseal, brought by some members of the press. And the key point is the government got a court to do something -- issue a warrant -- based on evidence it now wants kept sealed. The law says the govt., or indeed any litigant, faces a high hurdles to do that, but in practice the hurdles, at least for the govt., is not so high.
(To be fair, in my experience courts are all over the place even in civil cases about allowing sealing. I once had two cases in the same district. Judge A was extremely miserly in allowing sealing; Judge B allowed wholesale filing under seal. The law is much closer to Judge A, at least where a Court reviews a document on some motion or other decision.)
Trump will be indicted and arrested as retribution for letting his yokel supporters chant "lock her up" and to prevent his return to the presidency.
If he's indicted, it'll be for committing a serious crime. No one needs to prevent his return to the presidency. Voters will handle that again, just fine.
I actually saw some commentary that the raid helps Trump with his base, turning him into a martyr. Certainly before that, his start was fading.
In the short term, I think it does. But two years and several indictments and I think even his cultists will get tired of his shtick. Plus, he ain't getting younger or less demented.
I mean, they already have gotten tired of his shtick. Hence, 2020.
If you remember one of the GOP candidates for the Michigan gubernatorial nomination was arrested for being a J6 guy. MAGAts got all excited because they were going to pwn the libs by making this guy the nominee. He ended up finishing a distant fourth. (To be clear: the winner is also a Trumpkin; I'm not saying that the GOP voters are sane or decent. I'm just saying, "Oh, this is going to help him" is ridiculously premature.)
You think the rest of the country is entertained by the spectacle he's creating? Or sickened? All he's going is reminding them of why they turned out and voted for his opponent.
Yes, it absolutely will help Trump get another nomination. And no, it won't be "short term". I'll go even one step further into La-La Land: I think it entirely possible that the whole point of the lawfare is to ensure that Trump is the nominee.
My speculation is based on nothing more than the evident truth that defeating Trump is going to be a whole lot easier than defeating DeSantis. Trump's baggage has baggage. DeSantis has a string of victories to run on. Do the math on the optics, and if you think like a political organizer, it's a short step to "find me someone who can make Trump into a martyr".
No, it's just lawfare in a cold civil war, nothing more nothing less.
The premise of your argument is that only Democrats commit crime. Which is stupid. If you are dumb enough to believe only one of two major parties has corrupt people in it, that only one has amoral wannabe dictators, then no wonder you joined the cult. If you are smart enough to realize there are those in both parties, you'd recognize Trump for what he is.
Right now, the difference between the parties, is that Republicans openly embrace the least moral (in every sense of the word) person ever to attempt to attain the office, the most ethically challenged, the most pathological liar, the most openly lustful of total power ("my generals", jokes about President for life, admiring Putin, noting the only problem in Tiananmen Square was the crackdown didn't happen quickly enough, love letters to Kim Jong Un, etc.). It's not even subtle.
Democrats don't reward those sorts of pathologies. Not that there isn't danger they will if you succeed in convincing them that your way is the only way, win at all costs, even at the expense of our democracy. But at the moment, those forces don't hold sway in the Democratic Party.
No, that's not my premise. See below.
Trump was more respecting of states' rights than most recent Presidents, so he was less abusive of power in one of the most fundamental ways.
There is very little difference between the parties in terms of their legislative output. Of course there are many differences in other ways, but none that make much of a difference in how our national government acts. All of Congress and Joe Biden could disappear tomorrow, and the D.C. government could hum right along because it is a permanent governing bureaucracy.
You have rejected out of hand the idea that Trump (or any of his associates) have committed a prosecutable crime. It's not because there aren't multiple indications of possible crime, most recently including Trump having sensitive government documents in his basement after his attorney signed a sworn statement saying there were no more.
And while rejecting the possibility that Trump or someone close to him has committed a crime (despite a multitude of guilty pleas and guilty verdicts), you want to look Hillary up and assume without proof that various Democrats are criminals.
And your weak analysis of Trump being respectful of state's rights, even if the conclusion were sound, doesn't have anything to do with whether he is also corrupt.
Three felonies a day in ham sandwich nation, man. IOKIYAD.
You're being incoherent. This thread, and my comment, is about the idea proposed by you that IOKIYAR. You appear to claim, and haven't disputed my interpretation, that you think Republicans never commit crimes, because you think every prosecution of a Republican is due to lawfare in a cold civil war.
So you think Manafort was innocent? Despite a jury verdict to some felonies and his own guilty plea, with a sworn under oath allocution, to others? And Michael Cohen? Etc. If you want to deny that you actually subscribe to the premise I propose, what Republican do you believe was legitimately prosecuted and convicted?
(And for the record, if Hunter Biden is prosecuted and convicted, it's because he committed a crime. Notwithstanding that Republicans will be gleeful over it.)
"Democrats don't reward those sorts of pathologies. "
No, they have their own set of pathologies that they highly reward, true enough.
I'll take the pathologies that don't involve attempting to undermine faith in U.S. elections for the purpose of getting your strong man into office over literally any other pathologies.
And I very much appreciate that you acknowledge the Democrats aren't trying to and don't reward politicians who subvert lawful elections and the peaceful transfer of power.
No he won't.
A Democrat Prosecutor in front of a Democrat judge with Democrats in the jury box are going to find him guilty no matter what.
It's as a foregone conclusion as any politically charged case is before SCOTUS.
It's easy to predict outcomes of our Justice System. Just look at where the D's and R's are.
Trump is the Al Capone of current politics. He's done plenty they can't get him on, so they'll go with what they can.
These are the folks that invent stories like, Trump is a compromised Russian asset and there's video tape of him doing terrible things with Russian hookers. They are taking money from Russians.
Then Biden Jr literally video tapes himself with Russian hookers, and takes millions from foreign governments, and they just ignore and cover it up.
You're inventing stories.
The folks investigating Trump now didn't make up any such stories. The "Russian asset" was speculation by non-government actors. The pee tapes were alleged by someone outside the FBI and never confirmed, not made up by the FBI.
If the facts were enough to support your points, I'd expect you to stick to the facts. That you have to make up stuff, is just one additional indication that you don't have a good point to make.
Given your obsession with Hunter's deals with foreigners: How do you feel about Kushner taking millions to make $2 billion for the Saudis against the advice of Saudi money managers, but with MBS overriding their advice? Funny you never mention that.
(I'm on the record as criticizing Hunter. Everything I know about him is not good and the grifting of the kids and spouses of powerful people is gross. There should be better laws. But you, Jared, and MBS, how do you feel about that?)
I didn't invent anything. I don't support Kushner taking money from foreign governments. I didn't like him being in the White House to begin with. I don't know if what he did is illegal or whether it should be, but am open to suggestions in that regard. The primary problem is that such things are inevitable when too much power is vested in a centralized government. There is no "fix" around that, especially not a bureaucratic one.
M L : "I didn't invent anything"
You're far too modest. Just look at your creative whining above about poor Trump and the evil people who invented a sex tape out of whole cloth. You can't be clueless enough not to not know the tape exists.
To be fair, most people think it was faked by criminal elements associated with the Russian real estate conglomerate Crocus Group, one of the hosts behind the 2013 Miss Universe Pageant. But it was (and is) very much real - so much so that Trump told his fixer Michael Cohen to suppress it in October, 2016.
Cohen used a Russian businessman named Giorgi Rtskhiladze as intermediary and Giorgi reported back by text: ‘Stopped flow of tapes from Russia but not sure if there’s anything else. Just so you know’. Both Rtskhiladze and Cohen later testified before the grand jury, and the infamous tape has a tiny little place in Mueller's report.
As does other October events of that year. For instance, Mueller discovered Cohen made multiple covert trips to Moscow to secretly negotiate a massive business deal with Kremlin officials. These happened throughout the '16 campaign season, the last occurring right before Election Day itself. The talks were over a new Moscow skyscraper, and Trump's associates discussed gifting Putin a free penthouse to grease the deal. No doubt the same motivation was behind Trump praising Putin in campaign speeches and interviews at the time. What everyone found bizarre and puzzling then makes perfect sense now. Why not make good use of a presidential campaign if a big payoff hangs in the balance?
Of course Trump repeatedly lied to interviewers about his Russian business dealings at the time, and the Russian government had a front row seat to those lies. They also had a trove of stolen emails from Clinton associate John Podesta, which were left unused & untouched for over five months. So when did they finally use them?
Per Mueller, the first group of emails were leaked less than one hour after the Access Hollywood story appeared (grab'em by the pussy). That story shook Trump's campaign hard; the Russians saw their preferred candidate was in trouble; they rushed to help.
You might have realized this by now, but ML is a habitual liar.
"The folks investigating Trump now didn't make up any such stories."
True, they didn't make up such stories. They just edited emails to reverse their meanings, lied to judges to improperly obtain warrants, hid investigative materials, and looked the other way while his political enemies bought and paid for rumors and lies from dubious foreign sources, and then tried to pass it off as something the FBI had created.
I am no fan of Trump, but I am way less of a fan of the way we do muck-raking here in DC. It all starts by claiming the fault all lies with those other guys.
Key weasel word, "now".
In other news, an employer used local police to search an ex-employees house to acquire copies of documents they took during their term of employment. Because no employee ever has tried to take copies of useful work product or other documents that are not explicitly covered by confidentiality from an old employer when leaving a job. You know documents that can be useful for lots of purposes like acquiring a new job.
Oh wait, this wasn't the local police. It was the FBI. And the old employer was the United States Government.
Yup. The same FBI that lied to the FISA court, ran a dozen covert agents trying to kidnap a US governor, and helped Whitey Bulger escape justice for decades.
No, I'm pretty sure it's not remotely the same FBI that "helped Whitey Burger escape justice for decades." Bulger's crooked FBI agent has been out of the FBI for more than 30 years.
Standard GOP tactic. If someone in a party or organization they like does something criminal, it's an exception or an infiltrator or false flag. If a nut in an organization they don't like does something crazy or corrupt, then it represents the entire organization.
It's almost impressive that a person can, with practice, even be that intellectually lazy.
The entire democrat party is essentially a criminal organization so at least the other side has "exceptions"....
Lean into the lazy.
We could review the standards of behavior set by Peter Strzock and Lisa Page if you'd rather. Plotting how to engineer a US election, telling underlings to leak to the media, lying about it to the FBI.
What was the name of the guy they were trying to get then? Drumpf or something?
What a standard leftist tardtic, to engage in motivated reasoning and project that onto others. Leftists must work hard at that level of intellectual dishonesty -- but from Marx on down, they've had plenty of examples to live down to.
"What a standard leftist tardtic"
It's no wonder to anyone why you're too much of a coward to post your lies under your actual name.
If only a real name was available, retribution could be had. I feel for your frustration.
Arguing that Trump stole the documents (which are explicitly covered by confidentiality!) in order to sell them to a new employer probably wasn't the brilliant defense you thought it was.
You probably think he was going to sell them to Russia right? Along with Hunter's second laptop which was an original Russian plant. I mean, it is possible to be that stupid.....
Speaking of stupid, do you honestly believe the Blind Trump Fanatic Computer Repairman origin story? I'm perfectly happy to believe the laptop contents were genuine, particularly because they had all the scandal power of a soaking-wet squib. But the B.T.F.C.R business was (and is) hilariously implausible.
I guess it depends how gullible you are, and given you picked a huckster buffoon as your cult demigod, that question answers itself. But if you want to limber up mind with a little critical thinking, consider this: Trump had Giuliani in Ukraine repeatedly the previous year, negotiating for Hunter dirt. And some news accounts had dirt available for the right price. Then the B.T.F.C.R stumbles onto a laptop (amazing!) and then has the idea to contract Giuliani (double-amazing!) over this lucky find.
Don't you smell the rotting fish stink pouring off that story ?!?
Druggies forget stuff in drug addled hazes, and Hunter went through electronics like he went through Eastern European "escorts". News at 11.
The fact that you stan for an influence-peddling, stripper-impregnating, drug-addicred, felon-in-possession, good-for-nothing son doesn't mean anyone misappropriated his laptop.
Here's what any minimally competent operative would do: get a bunch of legitimate documents, and mix in some subtle fake stuff that makes the target look bad. And then arrange for this mixture to be "found."
Who did you have in mind when you suggested that he stole the documents because they would "be useful for lots of purposes like acquiring a new job"?
Jimmy, you are going to have to take up that Russia theory with Jimmy.
Good luck - he’s not much of a thinker!
The president, like any elected position, is not an employee of government, even if they do get paid.
They are the government. They are the ones The People put in charge of it.
Yes, nobody is above the law. But that is a subset of everybody is equal before the law, which means not using the power of investigation against political opponents, singling them out to look for things to hurt them with.
Go ahead and facetiously pretend otherwise. You did the opposite under Clinton, where indefinite investigation ultimately turned up illegality there, too.
The power hungry find ways to abuse their power to maintain their power. It isn't abouy any instance of illegality. That can always be found if you look long and hard enough at any rich or powerful person. The 4th protects against, anyone? Yesn fishing expiditions, which aren't curee just because you find a real crime. You always can.
And the King knows this.
And the King relied on it.
And so things like the 4th Amendment were created, to stop this.
No. "L'état c'est moi" is not a principle of American government.
The president is the head of one of the branches of the federal government. He is not "the government." And that he's the head does not mean he is not an employee. He is. Just like a company president is an employee of the corporation. He ultimately works for the owners — the stockholders, in the case of a private business, or the public, in the case of the government.
Looks like another of your boys at Claremont you work closely with is about to get pinched for election criminality, Blackman. First Easterman, now this Kennedy guy. I hope for your sake you didn't assist.
Just some random shit.
Trump is not really a hands on guy; in fact at times he seems to delegate too much (including getting his flunkies to pay off hot babes). So what I want to know is just how hands he was with GSA who packed all the stuff Trump took when he left the White House (unlike Hillary who definitely was hands on with taking the silverware when she left, not to mention Bill's shit eating staff who took all the "W"s off the computer key boards). I can't really see Trump walking around saying 'go to that file cabinet and take these papers, in fact I am not even sure he said something like pack up all the file cabinets. Not to mention some of the stuff is suppose to be only viewed in a secure room with no cameras allowed; so just who went into those rooms and got it (and did they pull a Sandy and stuff it in their underware).
While I am convinced lots of what the government does is an attempt to show just how incompetent they are I have to wonder if the GSA made a list of what they packed up for Trump and if not why not. Same goes for how the stuff got from DC to FL. I have seen arguments about possible lack of security when transporting CSI stuff (which should not have ever been out of a secure room in the first place) which raises lots of questions in my mind.
Bottom line is the only way a lot of these questions will be answered is by unsealing lots of stuff the DOJ/FBI wants to keep sealed. Not to mention the shit eating answer we got about Trump's passports which does not inspire confidence in both the FBI and DOJ.
Seriously, what is it with people feeling the need to make stuff up about Hillary?
Hey Turdy McTurdface even factcheckdotorg agrees that the Clintons returned $US28,000 of stuff they took when leaving the White House after that well known right wing source the Washington Post reported on it.
But your comment is what I expect from libtards who lie and make up shit about everything.
https://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/the-clinton-furniture-flap/
You said definitely "hands on" implying she personally packed the silverware which you attempt to differentiate from Trump who, clearly, wouldn't have had anything to do with packing boxes containing documents marked classified.
So, are you alleging she personally packed the silverware or is your argument bullshit? Hint: the latter.
NOVA Lawyer go fuck yourself in the ass. Either Bill or Hillary (and given it was household goods the smart money is on Hillary since I don't really see Bill giving a shit about household goods) told somebody to pack up specific household goods.
On the other hand it seems to me Trump was much more hands off in specifically detailing what was to be packed.
Did I tell you to go fuck yourself in the ass. Not because of the bullshit in your post but because you ignored the substance of my original post about how much bullshit the FBI/DOJ is slinging; kinda like the bullshit you are slinging.
Rage it really ragey about some decades old petty Limbaugh talking point!
The Government's claims of harm to their investigation that would flow from unsealing the affidavit supporting the search warrant are boilerplate and conclusory. Facts specific to such claims of prejudice in this case are notably absent. The offer in footnote 6 to provide a sealed, ex parte supplemental response implicitly recognizes that inadequacy.
There is a strong public interest in (further) revealing what a scoundrel Donald Trump is. As Louis Brandeis observed, sunlight is the best of disinfectants.
Or the DOJ is trying to cover up that this was little more than a hissy fit and all they uncovered were some copies of records which a past President was legally entitled to keep.
Uh huh. The DOJ subpoenaed Mar-a-Lago surveillance footage to verify who had access to the original purloined documents, even though they were only laundry lists and old Chinese take-out menus.
And then the head of DOJ's Counterintelligence and Export Control Section, Jay Bratt, personally went down to Palm Beach to meet with Trump and his lawyers, despite the fact the docs were just yard sale flyers and old office football pools.
In case you haven't been keeping up: Trump promised Bratt complete cooperation, and the lawyers signed a statement stipulating all documents had been returned. Given this was a lie, don't you wonder why? Just a little bit? Or has being Trump's lickspittle caused your capacity for skeptical reasoning to atrophy?
I wonder whether any Trump lawyer(s) who signed that fraudulent statement regarding return of the documents will be prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. § 1001.
My guess is that the lawyer is going to say that (s)he relied on what Trump told him/her, and thus believed it to be true.
I will ask because I'm now a lawyer, although I suspect that I know the answer anyway:
Isn't that yet another crime on Trump's part then? Surely it isn't legal to lie to your attorney when you know the attorney is asking because the court is demanding an answer, and your lie will be passed along.
Goddamnit.
"I will ask because I'm NOT a lawyer"
How many people have to ask for a damn edit button around here?
I frankly don't believe anything out of the Brandon administration or the thoroughly discredited FBI at this point. Would not surprise me if this was just another hoax wrapped into a bigger hoax just like every other hoax that Trump has been subjected to in the last seven years. Remember when liberals were sad when it came out that the President had NOT sold out to the Russians?
not guilty...I agree: Publish the affidavit in its entirety. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
"Facts specific to such claims of prejudice in this case are notably absent."
Really, I hate to sound so negative, but this is how we do muck-raking here in DC. We are very good at it, long years of practice, both sides of the aisle.
You are not going to see anything close to "facts specific to claims of prejudice." That would give away far too much. The only time you will find anything out is after years and years of FOIA requests, and, maybe, if the story has legs long enough, an IG report.
Well, that or the investigations conclude, the indictments come down , and the affidavit is unsealed.
Donald Trump says the FBI stole his passports.
Yeah, but Trump lies like normal people breathe.
Well the FBI said Trump's passports were not in their possession but then the DOJ said the returned the passports to Trump. Which makes both the FBI and DOJ look like the Keystone Cops lying about what they did and then backhanded admitting they did take the passports.
Theft typically requires an intent to permanently deprive the rightful owner of possession. The passports were promptly returned, which negates such intent.
Borrowing property without permission for an indeterminant (non-permanent) time “typically” isn’t considered theft? My neighbor does have a nice Ferrari so a bit of non-theft borrowing is a very attractive idea.
Yep. Crazy thing when you learn about larceny
"Borrowing property without permission for an indeterminant (non-permanent) time “typically” isn’t considered theft? My neighbor does have a nice Ferrari so a bit of non-theft borrowing is a very attractive idea."
Intent to deprive permanently is an element of common law larceny. Joyriding is often prohibited by a specific statute.
The "rightful owner" of a US passport is the US Government.
And you say we are in a cold civil war.
People say dumb shit all the time.
As a layman I am quite surprised about the why Trump / why Hillary exchanges in this thread. I might be splitting hairs - a tendency by my prejudice I normally ascribe to lawyers - but I for one do not KNOW who is the person that might be charged violating the three statutes cited. I do know that the FBI searched - and presumably - found document’s on 45’s property. The warrant doesn’t say that the owner of the property is the perpetrator. It just says that there is probable cause that a violation took place, period.
In Hillary’s case Comey stated openly that she was responsible for using a private e-mail server. The fact that both supporters, opponents and the media who almost all take sides (pro or con), too, should not blind us: for the time being, we do not KNOW.
That could indeed be an additional argument for revealing the content of the affidavit. Yet, I am not convinced what by all means seem to be politically wise is so legally, too. To me, Eugene’s silence on the issue is deafening.
As others, I lament the absence of an edit function.
Don't be daft. We know this is part of the evidence gathering process for the charges to be levelled at Trump. The only open questions are things like whether they'll actually manage to pin the treason on him, or have to go for lesser charges like seditious conspiracy.
At this stage we have ample evidence, including his own statements, that shows Trump was working for a foreign power whilst POTUS. Death penalty time.
"At this stage we have ample evidence, including his own statements, that shows Trump was working for a foreign power whilst POTUS. Death penalty time."
Which "foreign power"? You mean McDonalds? Yeah, those Big Macs will, indeed kill him over time.
Shut the fuck up about treason.
Trump may be charged with lots of things but treason is not one of them and anyone who mentions it needs to be fucked in the ass with no lube till they can't walk.
You might want to reign in your raged sexual phantasies. With Number 45 nothing can be excluded and nothing is unthinkable. Yet I do agree that it is not exactly helpful in the current discussion to claim as a fact what at best (or worst) is a remote possibility.
“We know” nothing of the kind you are claiming. We suppose. And the question is, are we assessing the legal questions correctly when we suppose? Is it of relevance for the affidavit to be published that the target of the investigation is known or unknown? Instead of rehashing for the n-th time worn out political sound bites, I am more interested to learn about such legal arguments and to what degree they can or cannot be disentangled from political considerations.
And doubling down with far less probable conjectures only lead us into even less illuminating screeching past another.
"At this stage we have ample evidence, including his own statements, that shows Trump was working for a foreign power whilst POTUS. Death penalty time."
Which "foreign power" and how?
One of my favorite VC genres of fiction is of the “make-up a quote and then demand answers about the quote you made up” sort. And the best of the genre try to affect legalese and/or intelligence by throwing in a word like “whilst.”
How about an example.
Happy to. Take this shithead (one of the VC’s biggest losers, name withheld) who posted to this article at 6:45am on August 16, 2022 (today):
“At this stage we have ample evidence, including his own statements, that shows Trump was working for a foreign power whilst POTUS. Death penalty time.”
“Which ‘foreign power’ and how?”
See? The quote is something the moron dreamed up and then the sad little pissant took a portion of the nonsense and demanded specifics from it. Hilarious, right?
Ooo, and it has “whilst” in it!
That’s gold, Jerry. Gold!
It was posted by davedave up above at 5:41am.
Go be a moron somewhere else.
To be more specific, Mr. Bumble appears to have missed hitting "reply" to the post by davedave, and you just appear to be foolish.
No “foolish” is responding to a thread by creating your own thread because you’re too stupid to operate the “reply” button. But stepping in to white knight for someone too stupid to handle a reply button is just silly, not foolish.
'In addition to the implications for the investigation, the release of this type of investigative material could have "devastating consequences" for the reputations and rights of individuals whose actions and statements are described.'
Given the waves of attacks, lies, threats, harassment, and one person actually killed, as Trump and his supporters rile themselves up into a permanent state of ragegasm, how can anyone doubt this for a second?
"one person actually killed"? You mean Ashli Babbitt, an unarmed woman shot in the neck by a federal officer?
Maybe stop projecting your side's behavior onto your opponents. The FBI needed a dozen undercover operatives to plot something much less effective and farther from fruition than leftist "autonomous zones" or burned police precincts or assaults on federal courthouses (body count: much more than one).
Remember who is attacking, threatening, and harassing Supreme Court justices and their families. And remember who is refusing to enforce federal law about that. We're just lucky that nobody was hurt in the assassination attempt related to all that.
No, that is not who I meant at all. I meant in relation to this case, the case we are talking about, and the associated storm of attacks, threats, harassment and one person killed.
Invective, no facts. You are not even trying to make a serious argument.
Yes, masses of invective and no facts would be directed at anyone named in the affidavit, as have already been directed at anyone identified as being involved with the warrant and the search, not to mention all the threats of civil war.
So who was the "one person actually killed"?
The idiot who shot up an fbi office in Cincinnati with a nail gun and then ran away with his AR, dummy.
"Nailgun-wielding nut commits suicide by cop, Trump to blame".
No wonder Nige tried to obscure what he was really arguing.
He probably wasn’t obscuring anything. He just wrongly figured maybe one of you clowns actually knew anything about what’s going on around you. I do not share Nige’s naïveté.
And it’s actually “After 36 hours of FOX and other reprobates screeching about civil wars and disbanding the fbi, nsa, and whomever else, one of you shitheads acted on the various calls for violence and is dead as a result of it.” But I get it, along with being morons you’re also abject cowards. So it’s no surprise you’re currently running the “lone wolf” business. But soon we’ll get to the “he was Blamtifa” stuff. Because again, stupid and cowardly.
Here you go, dipshit.
It has words though, so be warned ahead of time that you probably won't understand any of it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/12/fbi-cincinnati-ricky-shiffer/
This is indeed a very strong argument. I wonder if the media who are asking for the affidavit to be published would be willing to cough up the necessary $$ for the security measures to protect the people exposed. I think of you Breitbart who named the FBI agents signing the documents already published.
Trump has a reputation for attempting to obstruct justice. I would not want to be the confidential human informant whose identity was revealed by a disclosed affidavit. Put together a "CHI-1 spoke to [redacted] on May 15 about the contents of the safe" and a "CHI-1 spoke to [redacted] on May 16 about the lock on the door" and Trump is going to have suspicions.
Problem is that if Trump is charged with anything CHI-1's identity will be revealed.
Maybe more to the point I doubt a lot of peeps had knowledge of the contents of the safe. As for the lock on the door even if it was a cheap Master Lock from Walmart so what; the real security was the SS agents that the FBI alerted before the raid.
If you ignore this one particular aspect of Buttery Emails — that if there were indictable crimes committed by Hillary Clinton she would have been indicted — then you don’t have to ignore anything else on the matter and can continue to spew nonsense about her in defense of a president being investigated under the Espionage Act.
Why do you say she would've been indicted had she committed indictable crimes?
Probably because a howling mob of Republicans would have made sure of it and a DOJ headed by Trump lackeys would have been happy to do it. But as usual, the lies told about the affair tend not to stand up to actual legal scrutiny, and Republicans think that's the absolute height of unfairness and double standards.
Because it’s the truth.
Why do you say it's the truth? Does the government always prosecute if there are indictable crimes in every case?
The FBI concluded she committed indictable crimes, and also that any reasonable prosecutor could see what Jeffrey Epstein had coming to him
concur - very good example of democrat privilege. One important aspect of an indictment is the ability to obtain a conviction in court. There is virtually no possibility of obtaining an unbiased jury pool for a trial of HRC. As such, the probability of obtaining a conviction is near zero. The sussman trial is a good example of problems with a democrat party dominated jury pool.
Crying that juries that don’t go your way are a sign of political bias is a pretty great way to beg the question, and show your win partisan bias.
Well played!
No, they didn’t.
OtisAH
August.16.2022 at 9:23 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"No, they didn’t."
Actually they did conclude she committed indictable crimes, with the claim that mens rea could not be proven, which was a pure cop out since hrc was repeatedly made fully aware of the requirement to maintain security.
Dont sink to Nova's level of an alternate universe for the facts
Can’t prove mens rea, have no indictable crimes. So no, they didn’t.
It was a strict liability offense. She didn't have to intend a leak, she just had to intend to take chances. And since nobody claims she tripped and landed in having a private server...
Wasn’t it explained to you in this thread that in practice this is never indicted?
Why would that matter to Brett?
OtisAH
August.16.2022 at 9:55 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Can’t prove mens rea, have no indictable crimes. So no, they didn’t."
OtisAH - both you and Nova are living in an alternate universe
HRC was told repeatedly about security and maintaining security . Yet she did it anyway.
The FBI excuse was just a cop out for the democrat privilege/excuse not to prosecute - But you already know that.
So anyway, if she committed indictable offenses, which you admit she did not, she would’ve been indicted.
OtisAH
August.16.2022 at 11:04 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"So anyway, if she committed indictable offenses, which you admit she did not, she would’ve been indicted."
OtisAH - perhaps its time you took a refresher course in the english language
She was not a primary classification authority for materials classified by other agencies, only the State Department. I've never seen any assertions to that effect.
It is quite uncertain that she committed any indictable offenses regarding classified materials. She almost certainly violated official administrative procedures of the State Department and possibly other agencies regarding the handling of classified materials.
Likely she violated terms of the government records act if the materials on the wiped hard drive were more than several days old
Which part of my reply are you unable to read? All or just most? Or are you objecting to my use of a contraction? It’s “would” and “have”scrunched together (and this sentence starts with “it” and “is” in the same manner). Confused by punctuation, perhaps? We call them commas. And there’s a “period” (not that kind) at the end. It signifies the end of the sentence.
Stupid me, I know what it is! You think I meant “indicated” when I wrote “indicted.” I didn’t. “Indicted” is the proper term here. How do you even make “indicated” work in that context? You’re a silly person.
The chief argument for unsealing is just that the FBI has lost the trust of a large proportion of the public, and need to win it back with transparency.
However, they're not going to admit that they're no longer trusted, and transparency might actually reduce the extent to which they're trusted, depending on what people saw, so fat chance they'll agree to unseal it.
It will be interesting to see if a Republican house committee can force that transparency on them.
The FBI hasn't lost the trust of a large portion of the public, it's just that Trump and his supporters will attack and lie and threaten anyone or anything that gets in their way, not the same thing at all, and all the more reason not to unseal.
Got any basis for that? How about some polling results?
https://www.statista.com/chart/27962/us-trust-in-the-fbi/
How about 'what we just saw happen.'
OK, what did you see "happen"?
Trump supporters going absolutely batshit.
...and what does that have to do with your claim:
"The FBI hasn't lost the trust of a large portion of the public"
Although I will grant that "large portion" is open to interpretation.
Trump supporters going absolutely batshit is not the same thing as the FBI losing the trust of a large portion of the public.
And you're saying there aren't enough Trump supporters to qualify as a large part of the public, despite him having gotten tens of millions of votes in 2020, and current polling showing Trump leading Biden if they had a rematch?
It's not that they might not constitute what could be called a large portion of the public it's just that they will turn on anyone or anything that thwarts them with an astonishing but oft-demonstrated visciousness, consequently their claims should never be taken at face value or be allowed to interfere with the normal workings of government or law and order, because they will not be acting in good faith and they place no value whatsoever on truth.
Ah, so your argument is that the opinions of a substantial fraction of the population, and perhaps a majority of the electorate, don't matter because they're a big bunch of meanies. Got it.
No, they matter, and it's not because they're mean, it's because they lie. Nobody is actually obliged to pretend they're not lying. Also, not a majority.
The right demanding concessions from the government due to loss of trust in the government is full on murdering your parents and pleading you are an orphan.
There are good reasons to unseal when practicable. This is not one of them. No working the refs to get special treatment,
wtf I love government secrecy again!
"the FBI has lost the trust of a large proportion of the public"
It be's like that sometimes. Don't sweat it
Now that it's been confirmed that the FBI agents from the same division that illegally spied upon candidate and President Trump also just stole his passports, how many of the bootlickers in this forum will apologize for their earlier comments?
I’m happy to once again point out how stupid you are. “Very.”
Per the Daily Mail.
Judge sets Thursday for hearing on whether the DOJ should be compelled to release affidavit on Trump warrant.
DOJ says:
The Justice Department said should the court order the release of the affidavit, the required redactions would 'be so extensive as to render the remaining unsealed text devoid of meaningful content.'
Transparency= invisible.
So, it's confirmed, they didn't just take his passports, they DID also take privileged attorney/client communications.
Well, I'm sure their pinky promise not to copy those before they return them is good, despite their refusal to get a special master to sort them out.
Could such documents be part of an investigation, and if so, what sort of investigation?
Passports could, in theory, although it is hard to imagine what.
Privileged docs -- no, the govt. does not get to see those merely because it is investigating. It could try to raise the crime-fraud exception to the attorney-client privilege, but so far that has not been asserted.
Honestly what has been asserted? The stories based on leaks changes every day.
Not the passports - they sent them straight back.
Why isn't Trump making any legal moves against the DOJ? It's all bluster on social media so far.
There is nothing "straight"about the current FBI or DOJ.
No response is necessary, it's just my opinion.
What legal moves would you suggest? Setting aside their grabbing some stuff they weren't entitled to, and the already accomplished fact of them going over his communications with his attorneys, they don't appear to be violating the law, as such, just following it abusively.
The dirty little secret about police states is that they're mostly lawful. It's just that the laws they're following allow them to do so much that they almost always have a legal basis for what they're going, even if they don't do it except to their enemies.
Police states work by making everybody a criminal, so you can legitimately go after anybody you want, and point to the laws they genuinely violated.
I've been saying for years that we have been gradually creating all the bits and pieces of a police state in America. Widespread surveillance, bank reporting laws, unqualified immunity, it's a crime for you to lie to a government official, and no crime at all for them to lie to you...
It was only a matter of time before somebody put the pieces together, and fired that sucker up. I think we're watching that happen right now.
You've been saying all this for years, yet sat on the sidelines and supported the police during BLM demonstrations.
I don't KNOW what legal moves he could be making, seems weird that someone so notoriously litigious and who Unleashed The Kraken to undermine a democratic election doesn't have ANY legal response? Are you telling me that there are literally no legal options open to him? None whatsoever?
Didn't I just refute this lie yesterday? I'm getting a sense of déjà vu. It is alleged, not "confirmed."
And it's not even alleged, because the article still says "It is unclear, at this point, if the records include communications between the former president and his private attorneys, White House counsel during the Trump administration, or a combination."
I already explained to you that this isn't how this works. You can't "get" a special master. A court must appoint one. If this were something real rather than a talking point to fool stupid people, Trump's lawyer would have rushed to court to ask for one to be appointed. That's what Michael Cohen did, and what Rudy Giuliani did, when their records were seized. But Trump didn't. The DOJ uses a taint team, because the risk to them if they're exposed to A/C material is that the case falls apart.
...and the Great and Powerful Oz has spoken.
Do you have any issue with any of his facts, or are you just going to grumpypost?
Where are all the "liberterians" who preach transparency of the courts and law enforcement like Volokh now?!!! They are all oddly silent. Libertarian-ism is a dead movement.
More lawfare.
"untaxed benefits like a luxury apartment, a Mercedes-Benz, and private school tuition"
Oh my. All politically motivated. Three felonies a day.
"The case was widely seen as a prelude to a more serious case against Donald Trump, who was under criminal investigation for lying about his property values to defraud taxpayers and investors."
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/16/1117699846/sources-longtime-trump-organization-executive-is-negotiating-guilty-plea-to-frau
What's a little tax evasion between friends, amiright?
No matter what Trump has probably done, you will call it persecution.
I don’t get how someone as simplistic as you are functions sometimes.
Three felonies a day sounds a bit on the low side for Trump.
Any warrants issued on that case? Double standard only works when the same thing happens but the reaction differs.
Of course it was.
Or, they think there is a double standard, that if someone with a (D) after his/her name does something, then "no prosecutor would bring such a case," but if he/she has an (R), then of course, no one is above the law.
That's the point. This crime is not the worst thing one can do, but it's bad (IMO). Violations should be enforced equally. There is an appearance that they are not.
It is not all bullshit.
It is plenty of racism.
It is a bunch of gay-bashing.
It includes ample misogyny, immigrant-hating, and old-timey superstition.
It involves voter suppression, gerrymandering, and unearned privilege.
It is changing, though, as more conservatives are replaced and our electorate and society improve.
Did the Trump Justice Department "lock her up"? Did it raid her home? Did it raid her attorneys' offices? Did it run an incessant, relentless campaign involving an endless stream of subpoenas, warrants, raids, and arrests of her associates?
But Trump is the abusive authoritarian, they tell us.
Hehe
And vice-versa, also bs all along!
This a dumb take. The argument is the two tier standard of justice. Hunter Biden's home was never raided. Hillary's home was never raided. Sandy Berger's home was never raided. Heck, he was allowed to have his lawyer deal with the FBI and DOJ.
"Lock her up" was based on mishandling classified materials. It's the same thing here, but you are Exhibit A, just caring about the warrant, not something you thought justified prison.
And warrants weren't issued in the Hillary case because she complied with the subpoenas.
You cheered on a military office injecting his own foreign policy preferences over and above the POTUS’.
I also cheered on a military general secretly telling our top adversary that he will give them a heads up if POTUS decides to take military action
You not I.
You talking about this general, Charlie?
"Flynn, a former lieutenant general in the U.S. Army, resigned from his post as national security advisor in 2017 for lying to the FBI about his relationship with the Russian ambassador, later pleading guilty to related charges before receiving a pardon from Trump in 2020. In December 2016, Flynn encouraged Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak on phone calls to not respond to sanctions imposed by then President Barack Obama over alleged Russian interference in the U.S. election, according to declassified documents from the investigation"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/01/24/michael-flynn-once-indicted-over-russia-communication---voices-support-for-russia-ahead-of-potential-ukraine-invasion/?sh=4d200b246bd5
No one has been charged yet.
You have, at this point, almost the same facts you had in Hillary's case. I guess you can hang onto a sliver of doubt as to whether he had classified documents, but good luck with that. Otherwise, it's the same thing. And Trump hasn't been charged. But by this point in the Hillary investigation, you and your ilk were all "Lock her up!"
And here, we have reports that Trump's attorney affirmatively alleged Trump didn't have any more classified, but he did. That's not going to go well for someone. But because he has an (R) behind his name, you'll go to the mat saying the poor billionaire (allegedly) brat is the true victim.
It's such a joke.
We have no idea whether Trump will be prosecuted so perhaps you shouldn't jump to a conclusion.
Yea, you and Bill Clinton -- "is" vs "was!"
The FBI did take the passports. Trump spoke the truth if you accept that taking someone's personal property without permission and beyond the scope of a court ordered seizure is "theft."
At some point they were returned. Good. So at some point it can be said the the government does not, at present, have them. But that does not change the fact that they were stolen.
A guy robs a bank. He's apprehended by law enforcement; the money is recovered and returned to the bank. At trial, can the guy claim, now that the bank has their money, that there was no theft . . . that the money was never stolen? Yea, I didn't think so!
There is a double standard. They only ever indict people — in this context anyway — on whom they have evidence of specific crimes. And that’s as unequal an application of justice as you can get!
I do not have "ilk" nor do I think Trump is a victim. He is in fact his own worst enemy, because he lacks self-control and self-awareness. He also fails to understand that being president of the US is not the same as being the president of a closely held corporation.
I do think that Hillary should have been prosecuted, and that what the DOJ did was rank politics.
As for Trump, I will await the DOJ report. Recall the DOJ report, the original one, on Hillary tracked the criminal statute word-for-word, and then was amended to avoid that. I would have no problem if Trump were charged, although someone would have to then explain why his case is different from hers. But Trump is a stubborn ass, and may well have stumbled into a criminal violation.
Mishandling classified materials. Destroying government records. Concealing government records by having a personal off site server. Making electronic copies of classified records and transferring them to people who didn't have clearance.
And on and on...
...she complied AFTER her IT guy "remembered" he was asked to delete emails months earlier and promptly deleted them after the subpoena was issued.
Bleaching the hard drives first is like if Trump incinerated the documents in a burn barrel then handed over the ashes. How compliant!
Do we know at this juncture if Trump actually mishandled these classified documents? To believe he did so you have to also believe he personally packed boxes of documents and transported them. It would seem more likely it was a member of his staff that did it. And maybe it was at his direction, but we aren't there yet. Meanwhile, it was well established that Clinton herself sent and received classified materials on her homebrew server. Apples and oranges.
NOVA Lawyer
August.15.2022 at 7:18 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Lock her up" was based on mishandling classified materials. It's the same thing here, but you are Exhibit A, just caring about the warrant, not something you thought justified prison.
"And warrants weren't issued in the Hillary case because she complied with the subpoenas."
Nova - you mean like bleaching her HD ,
Must take some really good drugs to live in that alternate universe
Mostly because neither happened the way that BCD falsely claimed.
Comey claimed — and I believe that he's correct based on my own cursory review (and Trumpkins' failure to provide a counterexample) — that nobody has gotten criminally prosecuted without an element beyond what Hillary did. Administratively punished or fired, yes. But not prosecuted.
You sound cranky, disaffected, powerless, and angry.
Like a loser and malcontent.
The Trump DOJ ran a multi-year investigation trying to, but found bupkis.
What you seem to be missing is there is a difference in criminality.
I mean, who is the Democratic equivalent of Sidney Powell? Rudy Guiliani? Paul "never met a dictator I won't support" Manafort? Responsible people don't surround themselves with this clown car of ethically challenged associates.
A reasonable person might wonder why so many associates are being convicted of felonies. Birds of a feather, and all. But can't be, because then you'd have to admit Dear Leader is not just a buffoon, but a corrupt buffoon.
What do you think that Kristian Saucier did beyond what Hillary Clinton did?
I may be old fashioned, but there is a concept that higher people are held to a higher standard. She was the Secretary of State, fifth in line to the presidency. There is a reason the statute requires only gross negligence, which is unusual for a criminal statute.
And she was not, in fact, administratively punished or fired. She couldn't be as Secty. of State, other than the president relieving her, which he did not. That's why she needed to be prosecuted, even if she only served 2 days in jail.
Don't forget, the Obama people warned the Trump people Flynn was a liability waiting to happen. Trump didn't listen and ended up firing him for lying to him and Pence (but then forgave him once he was convicted of also lying to the FBI). Trump is a crappy leader and he surrounds himself with the dumbest and dimmest.
The anti-Trump FBI found a huge number of Clinton aides who were apparently in dire need of immunity agreements. That's not "bupkis".
Saucier was convicted of unlawful retention of national defense information and sentenced to one year in prison. That is one of the statutes listed in the Mar-a-Lago warrant. If Trump is convicted do you want him to get the same sentence?
First, he deliberately took classified info. It wasn't carelessness or even gross negligence. Second, he lied to the FBI, and tried to cover up his crime. (People: lying to the FBI will always get you. Every time.)
And you should know a lot about these things.
Did you find a therapist, yet?
Screw off, Groomer.
So, the FBI has privileges that Congress and the American public don't have? Clinton lied to those groups about her email server and its contents.
Good to know what you think is really important here.
Clinton also directed deliberate mishandling of classified information, and also tried to cover up her crime. See, for example, the summary at https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/grassley-deliberate-mishandling-classified-information-requires-accountability
The Deep State wanted Flynn out because he threatened their cozy arrangement of impunity. That's the only trouble he represented, and they crucified him for it.
Remember that it was an FBI supervisor who was not present for the interview with Flynn that directed the interviewing agents to recharacterize that interview, leading to Flynn's prosecution.
So far, I have been able to cope with winning the American culture war and being on the right side of history.
Describing the fact that lying to the FBI is illegal as a "privilege" of the FBI is pretty weird. But, no, it's not something that Congress doesn't have. Lying to Congress is also illegal.
Clinton did not, in fact, lie to the FBI about her email server or its contents.
"So, the FBI has privileges that Congress and the American public don't have?"
Not just the FBI, but knowingly and willfully lying to any federal agency about a material matter is a felony. See, 18 U.S.C. § 1001. But I suspect that Michael P knew that, and he is just being cantankerous.
Contrary to what the Trump cult would have us believe, IOKIYAR is not a maxim of statutory construction.
Sorry, I meant to say that Clinton did not, in fact, lie to Congress about her email server or its contents. (Or to the FBI, but that's not what I meant to say.)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-republicans-hillary-clinton-committed-perjury-in-emails-testimony/
Yeah, she lied to Congress. And probably the FBI too:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/hillary-clinton-interviewed-fbi-about-private-emails-n602966
Michael P,
Funny how you link to unsubstantiated, and in fact disproven, allegations by two Republican strivers as evidence. Trump's DOJ didn't prosecute those alleged misstatements. Wonder why? Well, one of their "smoking gun" misrepresentations was that Hillary testified that the 30,000 or so email either weren't classified or weren't classified at the time they she sent or received them. But, aha, say those two Republican camera hawks, 3 out of the more than 30,00 were marked classified. But, explained the State Department, the markings were the result of human error and they weren't actually classified.
The other allegations were similarly baseless.
I get that you are invested in Hillary being a criminal, which of course wouldn't exonerate Trump in any case, but you shouldn't have to lie to get there. Otherwise, you are just what you wrongly accuse the FBI of being.
One gets the sense that "NOVA" means "Clinton flunky".
Clinton lied over and over about her email server. A number of the emails she received contained information that was classified as the time it was sent, and more were determined to be classified later. She claimed she never got anything classified. She also claimed she had no idea what those portion marks meant -- which means she was ignorant of basic classification rules.
What was the human error? Not capitalizing the (C)? Not putting a classification header block on the email? What other relevant facts are you leaving out of your apologia for egregious, intentional absconsion with federal records and classified information?
Your specific factual allegations are explained to be wrong, so you just insult and then repeat the general thesis.
A more clear example of losing an argument I have not seen on here.
S_0, asserting that something was disproven does not make it so. NOVA Lawyer's assertions have been explained to be dishonest, so we seem to be at an impasse unless you folks want to bring facts to the table.
You didn’t engage with his counter assertions, you just retreated to the general thesis,
That’s pretty telling.
Sarcastro,
What's really amusing is that Michael P is arguing with the article he cited as authority.
Michael P,
What was the human error?
Take it up with the article that you wanted us to believe.
Flynn is a piece of shit. A delusional conspiracy theorist. Took money from the Russians and forgot to mention to the military that he was or is on the Russian payroll. Hid behind a pardon like the the un-American right wing coward he is. He belongs with Clark, Eastman, Manafort, Giuliani, Cruz, Gratz, Powell, Perry, Miller, Ellis, Kushner, Stone, and the others in Trump’s “braintrust.”
This is tinfoil hat stuff. There is no "Deep State," and it's not trying to get people who "threaten" it.
We're talking about Michael Flynn here, right? Just want to be sure.
Sure seems weird that he'd admit under oath that he lied, then!
I missed the part of that "article" where Clinton 'directed' deliberate mishandling of classified information.
In fact, the word "directed" does not appear on that site.
More right-wing bullshit?
Setting aside the weird notion that we can't trust the FBI but we can trust Chuck Grassley, nothing in that link supports the claim that she "directed deliberate mishandling" of anything. Indeed, her server is ultimately a red herring as far as classification goes; if she were using her official State account, it would have still been a violation to send classified information there. Classified emails should have only gone through SIPRNet.
You forgot Lindsey Graham. (For some reason the rather amusing and not unrealistic image of Graham and Giuliani sharing a prison cell just popped into my mind.)
BCD is lying? Please say it isn't true.
Sure they did.
Lt. Vindman inserted his own foreign policy preferences on Ukraine over POTUS, and Gen. Milley confessed that he would secretly alert China if POTUS ordered military action.
These are facts. You are an ignorant liar.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/hillary-instructing-staffer-delete-classified-heading-common-practice/
Just more of your ignorance.
Still looks like bullshit to me.
Maybe you should get your news from somewhere that actually cites primary sources. For example - the email in question.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3391031/Game-set-match-classified-emails-Bombshell-email-shows-Hillary-Clinton-telling-aide-secure-information-send-nonsecure.html shows the email chain.
Surely someone who knows SIPRnet as well as you is familiar with the proper procedures to declassify documents and transfer them to a less classified system.
Among other things, Hillary Clinton had broad declassification powers. If you're one of those who subscribe to the theory that if Trump thinks something is declassified, it is, then that would apply to Hillary and this email. And you have nothing.
Of course, that theory is absolute bunk. So give it up.
But as to this email, it was explained and investigated, and no classified info was sent on a nonsecure server.
"A State Department official said Sunday it has found no indication that the document in question was sent to Mrs. Clinton using nonsecure fax or email, although 'there was a secure fax transmission to Secretary Clinton shortly after this email exchange.'"
Clinton's powers to declassify something were limited, compared to the unlimited powers of the sitting President.
For example, she had zero authority over classified material produced outside of the State Department. Even within State, she would have had to follow the process for declassificiation, which includes filing paperwork and having security reviews.
The President, on the other hand, can wave his hand and say "This is declassified" or "That guy now has clearance".
Toranth, you are flatly wrong about Presidential declassification powers.
You should keep quiet unless you know that you’re speaking the truth.
And nobody tried to paint purloined passports as Trump fiction, it just happened by coincidence.
There's a limit to how far credulity should stretch.
Graham strikes me as different. He is no true believer. He flutters with what he perceives to be the prevailing winds. He may be back to being best friends with Pres. Biden, and calling Trump a deplorable liar and grifter, at any time.
I mean, it looks like this general is countermanding the wishes of his POTUS at the time. Ain't archived information a bitch, Charlie?
"Should have" didn't stop her correspondents from sending her material at every classification level.
But here correspondents!
Not doing great here.
S_0, she repeatedly insisted there was never any classified information on her server. That was false.
DN correctly observed that any classified document is supposed to have a classification block and be kept on an approved network (I'm generalizing because SIPRnet isn't approved for TS material like Clinton had, and SIPRnet is not the only network approved for classified email). But Clinton's email server contained classified documents that did not have a classification block, and it was not approved for processing classified information, so "should have" is a poor guide to what her email server actually did.
But you knew that, didn't you?
No new goalposts.
Really all over the map today, it seems. Full retreat back to more general points.
Not sure Hillary insisted anything like here was no classified items, either.
Not when you consider that the DOJ was threatening to ruin his son's life too.
Or are you really so fucking stupid that you think nobody pleads guilty when they're actually innocent?
A prosecutor granting immunity to a prospective witness is an information gathering tool -- rendering inapplicable the right of the witness to avoid self-incrimination. In Mrs. Clinton's case, that likely was necessary to develop the full range of information regarding Mrs. Clinton. The underlings didn't matter to the investigators.
Right. As the FBI demonstrated, it's only okay if you are a Democrat.
Because Republicans crime more than Democrats do.
That's correct; nobody did that. It's Trump who tried to spin a non-story here. The FBI taint team found passports, and told Trump they were sending them back. Instead of being an adult and saying, "Thanks," Trump ran to social media to rant about how the FBI seized his passports, knowing that they were already giving them back.
Not rich white people represented by elite law firms, no.
Also, he expressly swore under oath that no such threats had happened.
If they didn't matter, they would have gotten raids and leg irons like Trump's underlings got. Immunity agreements are for allies.
For example, both Cheryl Mills and Heather Samuelson got generous immunity agreements with strict limits on the FBI to produce laptops. Those could have been subpoena'ed or seized without self-incrimination concerns.
As others have pointed out, you're misrepresenting the timeline.
Republicans kept investigating for 3.5 years and found no malfeasance. But, of course, facts told to you by anyone, including Republican Senators and a Pompeo-headed State Department, you reject out of hand when they disagree with the narrative Dear Leader spoon feeds you.
Cultists gonna cult.
One of the most amusing arguments cultists make: You definitely can't believe a Republican when they swear to things under oath. See Flynn, Michael; DeSouza, Dinesh; Gates, Rick; Papadopoulos, George; Manafort, Paul; etc., etc.
All swore to tell the truth, all pleaded guilty to felonies, but cultists think they all lied under oath when it suited their personal interest.
"If they didn't matter, they would have gotten raids and leg irons like Trump's underlings got."
Did you think that out before you wrote it?
Who's your example of a Trump underling that got leg irons?
I hope you don't mean Peter Navarro who was arrested after he refused to comply with Congressional subpoenas. Neither Mills nor Samuelson refused to comply. It's only in your imagination that they, like Navarro, would have thumbed their nose at a subpoena.
But it's a standard tactic for you. You imagine what you think someone would have done, and then accept your imaginings as fact. That's not how truth works.
TF? You think, "I won't talk unless you first agree that you won't prosecute me" is something that an ally says?
Dishonest, as usual.
Here's the timeline, from the FBI report, not "Republican Senators and a Pompeo-headed State Department,"
March 4, 2015: The Benghazi committee issues a subpoena
Between March 25-31, 2015: Clinton's IT guydeletes an entire email archive using a software called BleachBit (which prevnts its recovery), tehn cliams he rmenered he was asked to do this in 2014
March 27, 2015: Clinton’s lawyers send a letter to the Benghazi committee saying that the State Department already has the relevant emails
People have gone to jail for far less.
Even that rag of a newspaper, the WaPo, admits that 'Trump is technically correct on the timeline", when he says Clinton destroyed 33,000 emails AFTER she got the subpoena.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-final-2016-presidential-debate/fact-check-trumps-claim-clinton-destroyed-emails-after-getting-a-subpoena-from-congress/
That's incorrect NOVA. There was plenty of malfeasance.
Destruction of government records is a crime. Undoubtedly Clinton did destroy government records when she ordered her tens of thousands of e-mails deleted. Her response that they were all personal records is wrong.
The FBI worked to recover these e-mails and some were work related as government records. Not all were recovered
NOVA Lawyer
August.15.2022 at 10:50 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
As others have pointed out, you're misrepresenting the timeline.
"Cultists gonna cult"
Pot meet kettle
I see that you're another RWNJ that doesn't understand how search warrants are executed.
His passports were not 'stolen.'
A US passport is property of the United States, not the personal property of its holder.
Roy Moore and his fans are a couple of threads over, you bigoted right-wing loser.
I'm curious.
How did the FBI search team find and take these passports, but not know it? Weren't they supposed to search for specific things?
Are you suggesting the FBI didn't actually conduct a careful search, but instead was taking things without paying attention to what they took? That seems like a radical anti-FBI claim to make.
This is a new thesis.
You are seeming pretty outcome oriented.
Once again.
I like how much greater your “concern” is over the actions of the person fifth in line to the presidency is than for the actual actions of the actual president.
FBI says they didn’t take them even.
I wonder if it was his Fed passport…not supposed to still have that one. Or his Diplomatic one.
I don’t know that those would be official records, but I could see that they could be,
Looks like whatever they were, they were returned before Trump made his rant.
What a tool.
They returned passports they didn't take?
But this isn't about mishandling classified documents.
If only they were supposed to present an itemized list of what was seized during the execution of the warrant, and such a list was available for public inspection.
Oh well!
If the passports were being stored with the documents, they were just being thorough.
The warrant has been released. If you cared, rather than mistakenly thinking yourself clever by making an attempted-but-based-on-ignorance gotcha, you'd have read it, and you'd have seen that the search warrant authorized the seizure of, inter alia:
(a) Any physical documents with classification markings, along with any containers/boxes (including any other contents) in which such documents are located, as well as any other containers/boxes that are collectively stored or found together with the aforementioned documents and containers/boxes.
It is possible that the FBI found the passports sitting on the back of one of Trump's gauche gold-plated toilets and took them just for funsies even though it was obvious the passports weren't seizable. But it is far more likely that the passports were in one of the boxes in the storage room, in which case the FBI correctly seized them.
Contrary to what you and Don Nico seem to think, when law enforcement conducts a search pursuant to a warrant, they do not review and analyze each individual item for its evidentiary value before seizing it.
David,
"Contrary to what you and Don Nico seem to think"
If have said nothing about evidentiary value. I have questioned whether proper accounting for documents with the potential to cause "extremely grave damage to the security of the United States" was carried out properly.
That is the definition of Top Secret documents and the reason for much stricter rules about their accounting and tracking.
You didn't 'question' things Don, you outright accused them of doing their job improperly, presumably based on your many years of experience in executing search warrants.
I have yet to see you acknowledge that you were wrong about the warrant receipt and its purpose.
That’s the thing, normal people might delay compliance but they’ll always comply before the execution of a search warrant and everything gets more real. Abnormal people think “They wouldn’t dare come after *me*!”
If Big Baby had sent the docs back even an hour before the warrant was executed we wouldn’t be here and he might be in a better spot. But Turnip is one of the abnormal ones.
Looks like the FBI took them.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trumps-passports-returned-mar-lago-search-doj-official-says-rcna43192
Yes. That's the cunning of Trump. He's slime, but he's good at manipulating the gullible. The passports were seized — not "stolen" — during the search. Then DOJ's filter team, while reviewing the seized material, identified the documents as being unresponsive. So DOJ contacted Trump and said, "Hey, we've got your passports, but we don't need them so you can have them back. Just contact us to arrange for pickup."
Then, after DOJ had told him that, Trump psuedo-tweeted that they had stolen his passports.
And offered them back. Which Trump did not see fit to mention,
Neither did you.
Figure you wouldn’t recognize a correction to a previous comment. You never do them.
No, neither of those are facts.
Here's what Milley actually said, which is not remotely like the nutjob talking point BCD is reciting:
And while Vindman apparently — like all loyal Americans, but not like Trump — disagreed with Trump's attempt to sell out Ukraine to the Russians, he did not "insert his own foreign policy preferences." Providing a military aid package to the Ukrainians was law, not merely Vindman's "preference."
"Documents." How cute. Passports are pretty... unmistakable. By design. I'd love to see you try to say with a straight face you could overlook passports in even a cursory flip-through of a box of documents.
"Went in and grabbed a bunch of boxes of random shit for optics" is looking better by the hour.
I havea always consistently maintained that Clinton should have been prosecuted, precisely to set an example for others. So nothing is new here, other than your snark.
Not familiar with box technology, eh? Or how piles of paper can work?
Plenty of explanation you are ignoring.
Sigh. Read. The. Warrant.
The warrant said, "If you find classified documents, take the whole box/container they're in and all the other boxes/containers in the room."
So even if the passports were loose and easily observable, as opposed to being in a folder or envelope — yes, you could overlook small objects in a full box of documents — that would be irrelevant. That's not how the warrant was to be executed.
Tagging in for Too-Clever, I see. Here's the bottom line, inconvenient though it may be:
Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 agents spent ~9 hours in a ~3k square foot residence, and on top of that were told by their mole exactly where to look. They were not pressed for time.
They indeed spent a good bit of that time working their way through the boxes looking at specific content, as evidenced by their oooo-looky-here property receipt writeup (e.g., box with "various confidential docs").
The idea that in so doing they somehow completely overlooked something with the distinct form factor of a passport (x3!) in the midst of the paper documents they were reading simply beggars belief.
The problem is that you're ignorant and don't know enough to know you're ignorant, and don't care because this is all motivated reasoning on your part. They were not "reading" documents during a search. That's not how a search is conducted.
Moreover, what on earth is your underlying conspiracy theory? They did see the passports, but took them anyway, and then offered them right back before Trump even knew they were gone? Why?
I suppose it's hardly surprising that the 21st-year senior associate would be so myopic as to fancy himself the lodestar of legal expertise. 'Nuff said.
Case in point: your only play is sad little gotchas. In context, what I said was that they were looking at the content of individual documents. If they didn't do that, they couldn't have completed the inventory list with the level of specificity they did (specificity that was functionally useless to actually identify any of the documents, mind you, but which made for some fantastic media red meat).
They, and you, just can't have it both ways (despite the inevitable too-clever insult-laced verbal diarrhea coming back my way declaring the contrary).
Verbal diarrhea! That's the perfect description of all your threads LoB. Always looking on the bright side of Trump.
From your source:
Clinton’s staff had requested the emails to be deleted months before the subpoena, according to the FBI’s August 2016 report. Moreover, there’s no evidence Clinton deleted the emails in anticipation of the subpoena, and FBI director James B. Comey has said his agency’s investigation found no evidence that any work-related emails were “intentionally deleted in an effort to conceal them.”
You seem so sure the mere deletion of emails was a crime and, yet, that's not what the DOJ ever considered indicting her for. And she freely admitted that in 2014 she gave the order to delete them. And then the Trump DOJ, with sycophant Bill Barr at the helm, investigated for three years but somehow overlooked this easy to prosecute, according to you, crime.
Do the facts of the real world, especially when your heroes haven't done what they proclaim they will do and you want them to do, ever make you question the fantasy you've created?
Or do you just chalk it up to, sure, I Armchair Lawyer see it clearly, so obviously Bill Barr or John Durham or some enterprising U.S. Attorney did see it, but they were foiled by the Deep State?
If you find yourself asserting something is bleeding obvious, but no one on your side in power made that argument anywhere where it counted (e.g., in court), then maybe you need to realize that, not only is it not obvious, it's probably not even true.
There's a full FBI report on this, to sum up, from the Washington Post:
Clinton’s staff had requested the emails to be deleted months before the subpoena, according to the FBI’s August 2016 report. Moreover, there’s no evidence Clinton deleted the emails in anticipation of the subpoena, and FBI director James B. Comey has said his agency’s investigation found no evidence that any work-related emails were “intentionally deleted in an effort to conceal them.”
Everyone whose opinion matters concluded that destroying the servers was not made in an effort to conceal any documents and Hillary. It wasn't a crime. I'll take the words/actions of the Republican Director of the FBI, the Republican AG, and the entire DOJ run by Trump appointees over random internet commenters.
(Of course, meanwhile, we know Trump had boxes with government documents, many stamped classified, and you have equal certainty that Trump did nothing wrong. Cultists gonna cult.)
(For the record, I don't know whether Trump committed a crime, because I don't do what Joe, zz, M L, and Armchair do, and here about some statute (probably without reading the actual statute), consider publicly available information in the light most favorable to the result I want, and then reach an "obvious" conclusion.)
Except for the entire link bit....which had the literal bit "trump's passports returned" in the link itself.
See...I offer links to support my facts. You don't. It's a failure on your part.
Your "correction" is incorrect. Your phrasing was "they were returned before Trump made his rant."
You need timestamps on when the passports were actually returned and when Trump made his post.
Post links to support your facts.
https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1559346070978760704
I'm sure you're going to now argue that they weren't "officially" returned at the time, and yet the fact remains that Trump lied about what they took, he lied about anything being 'stolen,' and they had already been identified and offered back before he opened his idiot mouth.
All he's doing now is trying to stir up more violence against the people who are going to hold him accountable for his behavior - and you, and everyone else who lies on his behalf are complicit.
If a single FBI agent is harmed by any Trump supporter, he (and dipshits like you) will bear the blame.