The Volokh Conspiracy
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Kansas Voters Reject Repeal of State Constitutional Abortion Rights, by >58%-42% Margin
In 2019, the Kansas Supreme Court held (in Hodes & Nauser, MDs, P.A. v. Schmidt) that the Kansas Constitution's opening provision ("All men are possessed of equal and inalienable natural rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness") protected abortion rights. Today, Kansas voters overwhelming voted to preserve this interpretation, by a 58.8%-41.2% margin (with 96.7% of all ballots counted) [UPDATE: revised slightly downward from the original news, which had it a bit over 60%-40% with 89% of all ballots counted]. The ballot pamphlet stated:
Explanatory statement. The Value Them Both Amendment would affirm there is no Kansas constitutional right to abortion or to require the government funding of abortion, and would reserve to the people of Kansas, through their elected state legislators, the right to pass laws to regulate abortion, including, but not limited to, in circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or when necessary to save the life of the mother.
A vote for the Value Them Both Amendment would affirm there is no Kansas constitutional right to abortion or to require the government funding of abortion, and would reserve to the people of Kansas, through their elected state legislators, the right to pass laws to regulate abortion.
A vote against the Value Them Both Amendment would make no changes to the constitution of the state of Kansas, and could restrict the people, through their elected state legislators, from regulating abortion by leaving in place the recently recognized right to abortion.
Shall the following be adopted?
§ 22. Regulation of abortion. Because Kansans value both women and children, the constitution of the state of Kansas does not require government funding of abortion and does not create or secure a right to abortion. To the extent permitted by the constitution of the United States, the people, through their elected state representatives and state senators, may pass laws regarding abortion, including, but not limited to, laws that account for circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or circumstances of necessity to save the life of the mother.
I'm glad to see this result as a policy matter. I thought that Roe v. Wade was mistaken, and that decisions about abortion should, as a federal constitutional matter, be left to the political process. (I have no firm opinion on the Kansas Supreme Court's state constitutional decision, which I haven't reviewed closely.) But the political process has worked, and I think Kansans reached the right result. And this is in a state where the legislature is over 2/3 Republican in each house, and where Republican registered voters outnumber Democrats by a more than 60%-40% margin. [UPDATE: Looking at the vote totals in the primaries, it appears that Republican voters in this particular election likewise outnumbered Democratic voters by over 60%-40%.]
I also hope this is the harbinger for other states, including ones where earlier polls had shown a close division (this May story, for instance, estimated the "mostly legal"/"mostly illegal" divide among Kansas on abortion at 48%-47%, not far from the results in states such as Texas, South Carolina, and Missouri). Of course, it might also be that there's status quo bias, and the Kansas Supreme Court's decision helped tip the scales; I suppose we'll learn more as we see more political battles on the subject elsewhere.
Finally, it may well be that a less ambitious amendment, for instance one that would authorize bans on abortion after the first three months of pregnancy (a position that appears popular even on a nationwide basis), would prevail.
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Looks like the next step will be for anti-abortion Kansans to have to argue that fetuses are constitutionally persons under the US constitution and hence the Kansas constitution or the interpretation thereof violates 14A. Some of the Supremes might buy that.
The Supreme Court recently reaffirmed that foreigners outside US territory, i.e. more than nine tenths of the world’s adult human population, aren’t constitutional persons, and don’t have any constitutional rights. Fetuses are in very good company in that respect, and it’s not going to change. The Suprem Court isn’t going to start ruling that you have to give enemy soldiers due process before you can shoot at them. Same with abortion.
"... aren’t constitutional persons, and don’t have any constitutional rights."
As it should be. US Constitutional rights and protections cannot be forced upon those unwilling to be subject the the laws, conscription, and taxes of the US.
You're assuming that the Supreme Court will be consistent in its application.
Without Roe there would be 60 million more Democrats today, with 20 million being diverse. Imagine our nation with that population.
I thought that Roe v. Wade was mistaken, and that decisions about abortion should, as a federal constitutional matter, be left to the political process.
Cawrrrrrrrect. Very good. I am impressed.
Next step for Eugene? Read Article I Section 1 giving all legislative power to the Congress, and none to the Supreme Court. That means, Congress must approve all judicial review and executive regulations, or they are void. Want judicial review and executive regulation for some strange reason? Amend.
Shall the following be adopted?
§ 22. Regulation of abortion. Because Kansans value both women and children, the constitution of the state of Kansas does not require government funding of abortion and does not create or secure a right to abortion. To the extent permitted by the constitution of the United States, the people, through their elected state representatives and state senators, may pass laws regarding abortion, including, but not limited to, laws that account for circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or circumstances of necessity to save the life of the mother.
No idea how to vote whether I support or oppose abortion. We are sick of you sick fuck rent seeking lawyers.
How about this?
Do you want to allow abortion in Kansas?
That last and active sentence has 10 fragments that are impossible to follow. Beat the drafters with a stick. This is like Jim Crow era literacy tests, name all the judges of the county, a denial of the vote. Eugene should name the drafters so I may file disciplinary complaints against them.
Rule 1.4 - Communication
(a) A lawyer shall keep a client reasonably informed about the status of a matter and promptly comply with reasonable requests for information.
(b) A lawyer shall explain a matter to the extent reasonably necessary to permit the client to make informed decisions regarding the representation.
RE: "This is like Jim Crow era literacy tests,..."
Which you, apparently, would have failed.
Those were designed for people to fail them, at least when applied in a discriminatory fashion, so you seem to be agreeing with his point. For examples of the mechanisms used, see the answers at https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/27082/is-this-a-genuine-1965-literacy-test
Bingo. It was a very confusingly worded amendment. I don't know how I would've voted if I was a pro-life voter but not following the movement closely.
Easily could be read as "allow the legislature to allow abortion!"
Or for others, it could easily be read as "allow the legislature to ban all abortion especially in the case of rape, incest, or danger to mother!"
That's why it lost so bad.
It would have allowed the legislature to do either; Here's the full legal text:
"§ 22. Regulation of abortion. Because Kansans value both women and children, the constitution of the state of Kansas does not require government funding of abortion and does not create or secure a right to abortion. To the extent permitted by the constitution of the United States, the people, through their elected state representatives and state senators, may pass laws regarding abortion, including, but not limited to, laws that account for circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or circumstances of necessity to save the life of the mother."
So basically it just established that the abortion laws of Kansas were a matter for the legislature to decide, that the state constitution had nothing to say either way. I think it was a perfectly reasonable amendment, which didn't dictate any abortion policy at all, just prevented the state courts from dictating abortion policy.
You can look at the arguments about it, and the opposition outright lied about the effect of the amendment.
The effect of the amendment would have been an abortion ban as soon as the legislature could enact one. That's what deep red states have been doing. It's a lie to say the amendment bans abortion. It's not a lie to say the amendment would result in a ban on abortion for the next few years.
I hope Republicans outside of Kansas take some time to think about the fact that voters are not as pro-life as the people who win Republican primaries.
Just like voters are not as anti-gun, pro-transgender, pro-grooming, and pro-Muslim illegal immigration as the people who win Democrat Party primaries.
"The effect of the amendment would have been an abortion ban as soon as the legislature could enact one."
And not, if they didn't. It didn't impose a ban, it just made the topic subject to ordinary legislation.
It wouldn't have been a lie to say that it would permit the legislature to ban abortion. But they couldn't leave it at that, they had to claim the amendment itself would impose a ban. That was a lie.
On the contrary, it was a very clearly worded amendment. That it lost anyway in a strongly republican state says a lot about the disconnect between politicians (of both parties) from the voters they are supposed to represent.
It was a very clearly worded amendment, but that doesn't mean the average voter was very clear about what it meant; The hostile coverage was pretty insistent about lying about the amendment's implications.
"Rabbi Mark H. Levin of the Congregation Beth Torah: "Now, the Catholic Church in Kansas seeks to enshrine Catholic Doctrine regarding abortion in Kansas law, and they do so unabashedly and unapologetically."
"Ashley All, spokeswoman for Kansans for Constitutional Freedom: "The constitutional amendment on the Kansas ballot will mandate government control over our private medical decisions"
"House Democratic Leader Tom Sawyer (D): "Putting this constitutional amendment on the August ballot will absolutely deny the rights of all Kansans to voice their opinion."
Here's a typical ad against the amendment. "nothing more than a back door ban on abortion". "A total ban on abortion without exceptions."
Don't get me wrong, political lies are pretty common. But I'm betting a lot of people walked into the voting booth yesterday convinced they were voting against an over the top abortion ban, and never even read the amendment once they were there.
And just like that, we're lamenting voter ignorance. Funny how voters are rocket scientists when they disregard established facts to "see through the lamestream media bias," but they're minimally literate when they vote on a specific, written, proposed law.
P.S. it's disingenuous to suggest the amendment proponents were doing anything other than setting the table for an abortion ban. They said so themselves. https://kansasreflector.com/2022/07/15/kansas-abortion-ban-is-the-plan-officials-pushing-constitutional-amendment-tell-gop-crowd/
Here's the bill they would have used. It died in committee this May, but was the language the Value Them Both group wanted to use. (No exception for rape or incest, mind you.)
http://kslegislature.com/li/b2021_22/measures/hb2746/
Rabbi Levine....what a hypocrite. How many times have secular Jews pushed far left politics and social engineering (racial quotas in the private sector and academia, gun laws, abortion, foreign wars that benefit Israel and so on). Catholic bashing is always fine right Rabbi? But God knows if you bash socialist, secularist, zionists...after all Palestinians are not really human are they?
Yeah -- it was a dumb way for pro-lifers to word the amendment.
Either of the following probably would have passed in KS:
"The Constitution of the State of Kansas shall not be construed to prevent the regulation by law of abortion in a manner consistent with the Constitution of the United States" or
"The Constitution of the State of Kansas shall not be construed to prevent the regulation by law of abortion in a manner consistent with the Constitution of the United States; provided that any such regulation shall have appropriate exceptions in the case of rape, incest or danger to the life of the mother. "
You've got your numbers backwards there, "Bruh" (See how annoying that is?) and way low, and everyone forgets that every female fetus that makes it over the finish line has on average 1.8(Hispanic) 1.7 (Afro-Amurican) 1.5 (White) 1.3 (Asian) additional Children during their childbearing years, 1/2 of which are also females,
Frank
AMENDMENT XIV
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
So fetuses are not citizens. But that does not mean that a Supreme Court cannot decide that they are persons.
SRG - my only point is that 14A is that fetus have no legal rights until born. Unfortunately, it is one of the justifications pro abortionists use in support of abortion.
Under the 14th amendment a fetus can have no rights as a citizen until born. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Other rights adhere to "people" within the jurisdiction, regardless of citizenship. "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Nothing in the 14t amendment settles the question of whether you're legally a "person" prior to birth, the phrase "persons born" permits but does not force acknowledgement of persons unborn. So I suppose Congress could enact enabling legislation declaring that "persons" in the 14th amendment applies to the unborn. That wouldn't get them citizenship until they were born, though.
Since it does say "born or naturalized", I suppose you could potentially enact a federal law, analogous to the Indian Citizenship act of 1924, which automatically naturalized the unborn at some point in fetal development. But I'm not sure conservatives would really like the implications of granting citizenship to children born outside the US if the mother merely passed through US territory while pregnant, and it would be unnecessary to achieve pro-life aims.
City of Boerne v. Flores likely precludes Congress from declaring a fetus a 14th Amendment person. But less assume I am wrong and Congress validly enacts such a law. Wouldn't the 14th's guarantee of equal protection imply that a woman who hires a doctor to kill her unborn child must be treated by the law the same as a woman who hires a doctor to kill her one-year old baby?
I would think so, yes.
It seems to me supporters most pro-life politicians are quick to say the woman should not be punished at all, let alone as a first-degree murderer. And being politicians, they do so because they know doing so is highly unpopular. And therefore, viewing the fetus as a person is highly unpopular.
No? I mean, we already have laws where assaulting a senior citizen is a greater crime than assaulting a young adult. Heck, even the anti-age-discrimination laws discriminate on the basis of age.
To be sure, age is not a classification entitled to greater than rational-basis scrutiny. However, taking a person's life might very well implicate a fundamental right that triggers strict scrutiny whereas assault does not. Do we have laws where murdering a senior citizen is a greater crime?
Hmm, so if Ayman al-Zawahiri had managed to make it to Amurica, any kids he had would be Amurican Citizens??? Sounds like Bullshit to me, but I do want one of them Hellfire missiles with the 3 foot spinning swords. https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-us-chop-up-al-qaeda-boss-ayman-al-zawahri-with-flying-ginsu-r9x-hellfire-missile
Yes. They would be.
The Kansas status quo (after Dobbs) was a 22 week cutoff, with a requirement to notify parents.
Solidly middle ground.
No obvious need to make changes. Constitutional amendments give lots of people the willies.
Most people are thoroughly brainwashed on the meme that rape and medically necessary abortions are 99% of total so I have no idea why supporters thought it was a good idea to throw in the possibility that they would ban those and especially wave it right in front of everyone's face like a doofus. Plus the phrasing pounds in the notion that a 'right' is being removed. So either the prolifers behind this were sloppy and/or as so often happens to Republicans, they let some leftist apparatchik write this summary for them which would make them stupid as well.
RE: "Most people are thoroughly brainwashed on the meme that rape and medically necessary abortions are 99% of total...."
Huh? No one thinks that.
Actually, a lot do. They harp on those exceptions as though they are the rule.
Nisiiko : "They harp on those exceptions...."
They harp on those exceptions because it shows the moral rot at the core of the anti-abortion movement. Either you force a rape victim to carry her assailant's child to term, or you admit "unborn babies" are only babies when convenient. With the first choice, the womb-control statists are moral monsters; with the second, they're hypocrites - willing to destroy the lives of tens of thousands of woman yearly for an ever-shifting definition of "babyhood".
Of course anti-choice types used to support rape-incest exceptions by solid majorities until defending that hypocrisy got too burdensome, then they said to hell with those victims. Likewise, almost none of them care about the IVF industry, despite its destruction of thousands of embryos each year. As the anti-abortion Alabama Senator Clyde Chambliss said : “The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant.” If there isn't some slut or jezebel to punish for "trying to get away with it", then a baby isn't a baby, despite all their angels-on-a-pinhead definitions of personhood.
In the end, its always been about the woman - full stop. Over at the National Review this morning, a commentator put it thus: "If women were so opposed to being “forced” to give birth, perhaps they should be equally opposed to the idea of sex as recreation." You have to understand the moral vacuum at the heart of the anti-choice movement. When they go off-script with all their practiced "pieties", you regularly find petty malicious spite.
Agreed.
I agree that there should be no exceptions for rape or incest, if you're being intellectually honest. But that doesn't mean that the left isn't dishonest by harping on them.
And even if the ultimate goal is to control what they consider irresponsible behavior by women, so what? That's a laudable goal, especially when you consider that men always have to pay to clean up the mess.
You think white people are superior and better for America than those of other skin colors.
Why the hell aren't you in favor of abortion, to whiten the herd, you moral vacuum?
White men built the civilized world. You can't deny that point. This delusional idea, only shared by liberal Westerners, that all races are equal in abilities and values, will be the downfall of the West.
Probably why China was the most civilized country in the world for something like 2000 years.
There's only one definition of 'civilised' that counts, and that's 'whatever white men did.'
Syd - partly concur - for most of the last 2,000 years, china had approx 20-25% of the world GDP. Though that is largerly overlooked by the failed economy china had from the early 1900's through the late 1900's due to ww2 post ww2 civil war, and the early communism years , great leap forward, famine, etc.
That being said, Nisiko is also correct in that the western (white) world took a great leap forward in the middle ages whereby the economies grow rapidly in relation to other cultures due to the culture fostered innovations , inventions, work ethic etc .
What is meant by 'China' in this comment and responses? Because there was never a continuous Chinese state for 2000 years.
Nisiiko : "And even if the ultimate goal is to control what they consider irresponsible behavior by women, so what? That's a laudable goal, especially when you consider that men always have to pay to clean up the mess."
Gents & Ladies, this is what the fake-pious looks like, off-script. Two quick points about the above: First, there's some "irresponsible behavior" by men involved in the process the last time I checked. Second, it's the women who "pay to clean up the mess" much more often than not. It will be women who "pay to clean up the mess" much, much more if the womb-controllers impose their sharia law. I'm betting Nisiiko doesn't care about that.
Gross hypocrisy is everywhere in the scam-piety of the anti-abortion movement. After Dobbs, I read accounts from its believers claiming a new age was among us, and the movement would now focus on pregnancy care & measures to support young mothers & children. How long did that talk last? The "Pro-Life" crowd doesn't give the slightest damn about mother or child after the State forces a harlot to bear the wages of sin.
Likewise, the same people who shriek "abortion is murder" gave repeated assurance they'd never hold the woman criminally responsible. Why? Because that would get too messy & inconvenient. The trials would be too ugly a spectacle. These people are happy to blight the lives of thousands upon thousands of women and families, but not at the cost of being put-out the slightest degree themselves.
You see, the popularity of their movement rests on it being the most consumer-friendly effort-free form of piety available in the marketplace today. Wanton hussies vs cherubic proto-baby zygotes. Nothing could be simpler. For the cost-conscious consumer looking for the easiest righteous buzz, there's zero heavy lifting involved...
Yeah, if a woman exercises her "choice" the man gets no say. But if she doesn't, and has the baby, now he has to pay to support it. What "choice" do men get? Why do women get to hold all of the cards?
If abortion is to be legal, men should be allowed to compel a woman to have it.
Tough shit, basically. Woman has to bear the child, woman gets the say.
So basically, a woman gets to decide to kill the baby, but if she decides not to, then she gets to use the power of the state to compel the man to support her lifestyle.
That's a fair system you lefties have set up!
Yes. Entirely fair.
The exception for rape or incest is a temporary concession until we can bring the public around on those issues. It would make no sense to lose the vast majority of abortion victims just because we insisted on strict consistency before the public was ready to embrace it.
You save who you can, when you can, and THAT is a consistent principle.
Not sure what bringing the public round on those issues would look like, only extremists will ever force a ten year old to bear her rapist's child.
"They harp on those exceptions because it shows the moral rot at the core of the anti-abortion movement. Either you force a rape victim to carry her assailant's child to term, or you admit "unborn babies" are only babies when convenient."
Or, you recognize that consent is a meaningful concept, and lack of consent justifies medical self-defense.
M L : "Or, you recognize that consent is a meaningful concept, and lack of consent justifies medical self-defense"
(1) Of course "consent is a meaningful concept" to the anti-abortion crowd. After all, you can't have whores, hussies and harlots to punish without it. But why not admit that? Maybe bring back the Scarlet Letter? Why dress it up with faux-moral cant that's clear hypocrisy?
(2) "Medical self-defense", huh? That's why a baby isn't a baby with this particular exception ?!? If a poor women suffers a contraception failure can she claim "medical self-defense" too - or is she a just another slut? You see, I'd like to understand the rules.
(3) But there are no rules, just the heartless convenience of posturing frauds. The point where the anti-choice crowd turned my stomach over for good came over contraception like Plan-B:
Remember : The movement's definition of "life's beginning" is the fertilization of the egg. Of course 2X or more fertilized eggs don't implant by nature alone, so their definition made God the most prolific abortionist by far but - hey - better that than one loose woman get away with carefree sin.
Unfortunately, science studies of contraceptives the movement targeted showed they weren't "abortion" per that definition. So were the anti-abortionists ecstatic over less "murderers" by their own rule? Of course not! Instead, they were furious - enraged at being cheated of their best haul of fake "victims". Just try to get your head around that, willya? These are very, very sick people....
Non-responsive.
How can anyone be responsive to a vacuity like "medical self-defense" ?!? That bit of rhetoric is a complete joke. Tell us : Is this non-baby baby holding its mother at (tiny) gunpoint from within the womb? When your defense against clear hypocrisy is so brain-dead stupid as "medical self-defense", you make my point for me.
Did it ever occur to you, ML, that there's no need to apologize for the basic humanity of not forcing a young girl to carry her molester's child to term, or a rape victim to have her assailant's baby? Didn't it occur to you that childish sophistry and insipid excuses weren't required?
Probably not. Because if you admit a glimmer of humanity over rape victims, then why not ordinary women as well? Why not give them your special "medical self-defense" exemption too? After all, the term is complete meaningless, so you can make of it what you choose...
It's true that the baby is an innocent party, but that doesn't necessarily defeat the self defense justification. Say you drunkenly mistake your neighbor's condo for your own and try to break in.
Point is, there is a plausible and coherent basis for distinguishing cases where there was no consent, notwithstanding all your flailing attempts to deny it so that you can set up false dichotomies.
right up to an ice pick to the brain when the body is crowning if the woman decides she can't mentally deal with it huh? Where do you draw the line? 2 weeks or 40? It does matter doesn't it?
You point put the problem. The wording was meant to ensure they couldn't ban it in those cases, but it was badly worded.
This failed because both pro-abortion and pro-life people didn't like the wording, not because of opinions on total bans.
It's middle ground under the _Roe_ rules where 15 weeks was not allowed. A poll posted here recently said the median American would draw the line somewhere between 6 and 15 weeks. https://reason.com/volokh/2022/07/11/harvard-harris-poll-on-abortion/
The poll had 37% supporting a ban. Kansas is more conservative than America as a whole. I expected the amendment to get much more than 37% of the vote. That's why we use elections instead of polls.
The poll had 37% supporting a ban. Kansas is more conservative than America as a whole. I expected the amendment to get much more than 37% of the vote. That's why we use elections instead of polls.
The amendment got 42% of the vote, which presumably came from most of people who supported a total ban (the 37% from the poll), plus a few more. Seems consistent. Anyone supporting limits rather than bans voted no.
Bottom line is that this vote was only obliquely a referendum on abortion itself. If the status quo would have been "no abortion allowed" or "any abortion allowed", the vote would have been more like a referendum.
But given the middle ground, lots of people are going to stick with what is there rather than open the table up to radicals.
The Kansas status quo was pretty much any abortion allowed, up to the limits previously allowed by Roe.
I think a lot of Kansans lost respect for the right-to-life movement on (or soon after) May 31, 2009.
When "Doctor" Georger Tiller was aborted??? (just look at it as a 201st Trimester Abortion)
The Kansas status quo was pretty much any abortion allowed, up to the limits previously allowed by Roe.
The popular analysis though was a bit different.
Roe allowed limits, but did not prescribe limits, so lots of people analyzed the question as if Roe legalized all abortions (no limits), and that Dobbs suddenly allowed not only limits but bans.
For most people, this analysis puts a focus on "middle ground", where there are limits but not bans. The media (as usual) isn't going a good job of connecting "middle ground" people to middle ground results, by pining for no limits and suggesting that limits are bans. TV news suggested that Kansas was choosing between no limits and a total ban, and now has chosen no limits.
Anybody can call themselves middle ground. There’s pretty much always someone to the left or right of one.
There’s a lot of room between Bernie Sanders and people who want to abolish private property and collectivize everything, so they could legitimately say an approach that permits some private property is middle groumd. But Bernie Sanders marks out the leftmost position of serious Presidential contenders.
Similarly, there’s a lot of room between Professor Eastman and the Clairmont people and out-and-out monarchists; they can legitimately say that a regime where you overrule the election only when it reaches (what they consider) a really bad result is a middle ground compared to a monarchy and no elections at all. But nonetheless in this country, which has long accepted that it is a Republic, monarchist positions are (currently) off the spectrum and John Eastman and the Clairmont people more or less represents the rightmost currently active position.
To paraphrase Lincoln, calling your position middle ground doesn’t make it so. You have to look at the spectrum of the debate you’re in.
Pretty much its going to be interesting to see how many states Republican's lose control of when their Republic lead legislatures decide to limit or ban abortion.
if they put it to a vote in all states I suspect you might get a handful of close votes but the majority would say let it be the woman's choice.
so expect by the time the next census comes out that many states will flip both their legislatures and governor's offices.
if they put it to a vote in all states I suspect you might get a handful of close votes but the majority would say let it be the woman's choice.
I think this is the false dichotomy description.
There is never going to be a vote, yes or no, on "let it be the woman's choice".
Instead, lots of states will be where Kansas was. The first thing they have to decide is whether the status quo is close enough. Whatever it is.
A very few states, perhaps none, have anything like a majority in favor of a total ban.
I'm not all that surprised tbh. Many 'conservative' voters actually come more from the 'center' and as a rule are quite open to the other side if they can make their case. Truly right wing doctrinaire conservatives are quite rare compared to the left. I've read many studies where the left is consistently found to be far more uncompromising with their views.
https://fortune.com/2016/12/19/social-media-election/
Its just that we've been moving so far left over these past few years we have a false 'center' consisting of the 'reasonable' left, far left ('center'), and extreme left. Now I hope Kansas enjoys their 30 minutes of praise before the media turns on them again for only towing the line 99% of the time.
Must be a coincidence then that all those "right wing doctrinaires" comment on VC.
Nonsense. Compared to the rest of the world, US politics is so far to the right that any moderation whatsoever appears far left, but that's just a function of us being so extremist right. The US is the only Western democracy in which abortion is still even being fought over. It's also the only Western democracy with a death penalty, no national single payer health care, and in which there is still debate over teaching evolution in public schools. The list goes on.
FYI, check out Poland if you're concerned about Abortion.
I would argue that they are neither "Western" nor a democracy.
I see...
Go on then. Argue it. Explain why Poland isn't a Democracy. Also explain why it isn't "western".
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_constitutional_crisis
2. Because it's so far East it's almost in Russia.
So Finland is not a Western country according to you?
As for "constitutional crises" , you can find links like that about almost any country. Indeed, the link you provide above has a handy listing of them, at the bottom, which includes, for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_Zealand_constitutional_crisis, as well as similar ones in Australia, Canada, etc...
Those events have nothing in common except what Wikipedia calls them.
Indeed, and just because wikipedia calls something in Poland a 'constitutional crisis" does not make it so, nor does it make it 'not a democracy'.
Have you given any thought to the Finland situation?
It has been noted that the abortion rate in Poland is about the same as everywhere else (one in four women). Polish women either have illegal abortions or travel outside the country.
Also, if you're concerned about the Death Penalty, check out Japan.
Check out the Netherlands if you're concerned about creationism in schools.
Or ... maybe you should just learn more about other countries before you make such crazy claims.
I promise you there is no debate about creationism in schools in the Netherlands. The funding of church-run schools was the defining political debate for decades in the late 19th century, the basis of much of how Dutch democracy works until today. The compromise they reached is written into the constitution (because it would be unconstitutional otherwise):
So all Dutch schools, public or religious, teach evolution as part of the regular science curriculum.
And yet the only reference to standards there is focused on "The relevant provisions shall respect in particular the freedom of private schools to choose their teaching aids and to appoint teachers as they see fit."
The main difference in the US is that governments are not required to provide any funding for privately run schools (as long as they provide publicly run schools). See, for example, https://ncse.ngo/cans-and-cants-teaching-evolution
The curriculum is adopted under art. 23(5), and applies equally to all schools. (As they probably should, given that all high school students have to sit the same exams to graduate.)
I didn't say debate over teaching creationism; I said debate over teaching evolution. Good land, you're a sloppy reader.
I apologize for wrongly thinking that you said even one remotely fact-based thing in that comment.
There's no more debate over teaching evolution in US schools than there is elsewhere.
Your second sloppy reading of the morning.
Most of Europe doesn't have single-payer health care, either: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-single-payer
Nope, but we don't let people die if they can't pay either. (And we all have a health insurance mandate.)
Just like the "extremist right" US! Imagine that.
And you saw how hard it was to pass an insurance mandate, even when the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the White House. In most of the West, government involvement in health insurance is a given. Oh, and I forgot to mention guns.
By any standard, we are extremist right. Joe Biden would be unelectable in most of Western Europe because he's too conservative.
Well, we ARE the "Novus ordo seclorum", the new order for the ages. Europe represents the old order.
Brett, be that as it may, the point is that when conservatives try to make out Democrats as extreme leftists, that says more about their myopia than it does about Democrats actually being extreme leftists.
Look, if we're standing in Chicago, and I say that Detroit is due East, it's not "myopia" just because Detroit is West of New York.
Democrats are often extreme leftists in an American context, which is the only context that matters when discussing American politics.
They're not even extreme leftists in an American context, with a few exceptions like AOC. Democrats and Republicans both spend lots of money, with the major point of disagreement being whether to raise revenue to pay for it or just throw it on a credit card. Most Republicans have no real interest in repealing social security or medicare. Most Democrats wouldn't confiscate guns; the dispute is over how much regulation. Republicans have mostly come around on gay issues; there's a dispute over how much to extend the same principle to trans issues. Abortion is probably just about the only true wedge issue.
You're taking a small amount of disagreement and making it out to be this huge chasm.
I suppose immigration is another wedge issue, but GOP hostility to immigrants is of relatively recent vintage, and I will make a prediction that it will eventually pass.
There isn't any GOP hostility towards "immigrants", only illegal immigrants.
It's like claiming somebody is hostile to bank patrons because they don't like bank robbers. Or hostile to renters because they're down on squatters.
Brett, if the GOP ever actually succeeded in ridding the country of illegal immigrants, large sections of the economy would go straight to hell. Georgia actually tried, with the result that a lot of Georgia crops rotted in the field because there was no one to pick them. This is definitely a case of the GOP better hope it doesn't get what it's asking for.
Keeping immigrants illegal and marginalised while at the same time demonising and opressing them is as much an economic policy as it is anything else, sometimes they forget that and believe their own bullshit.
White people used to pick crops. To the extent that they rotted in the field, that's because of government policies that allow people to remain idle.
Yes, I imagine that if you could suddenly get rid of all the illegal immigrants in the US, at this point it would almost be like Thanos' finger snap in terms of disruption, they're now such a large fraction of the population.
If we could just stop the influx of fresh illegal immigrants, THAT would be much more easily adapted to, and we could see about selectively expelling existing illegal immigrants at a reasonable rate.
I spent enough time working at agricultural sub-minimum wage myself, as a teen. It was about the only summer work available where I lived, and my parents weren't about to let me be idle during the summer.
'that's because of government policies that allow people to remain idle.'
No, it's because the owners want to keep wages low and worker's rights and protections to a minimum, if they exist at all.
No. You can keep saying it, and maybe you even believe it, but that doesn't make it true. The Trump GOP doesn't like immigration. They want to reduce legal as well as illegal immigration.
Yes, as usual, Democrats larded up a bill so that it barely squeaked through.
Look how extremist right we are: France's prime minister decried our Supreme Court upholding a state law than banned abortion after 15 weeks, compared to the recent liberalization of laws there. Now France allows abortions before 14 weeks!
No, you just offer them euthanasia.
Yes, because we believe in self-determination. That seems like an odd thing for a libertarian to oppose.
That doesn't happen in the US either.
Don't confuse him with facts.
Please elaborate.
I misspoke. I intended to say the only Western democracy that doesn't have a cohesive health care system that covers everybody. Even countries with private health care have it set up so everyone is covered.
It's a relevant mistake, though, because the left really ARE pushing "single payer" in the US. As in, outlawing private health care.
For instance, the "Calcare" bill in California.
Or look at the 2019 federal "Medicare for all" bill, it also abolished private insurance.
It's not like it's a total fantasy threat.
Oh, I support single payer, as do many Democrats. It's just not what I intended to say in my original post.
To bad Barry Hussein didn't institute it when he had the votes, or Gun Control, or Closing Guantanamo, etc etc.
So, you're basically admitting here that what you really want IS something more extreme than you'll find in Europe?
What I personally want is irrelevant to the question of whether Democrats are in fact extreme leftists but yes, if I had magical powers the US would have single payer health care.
If a significant fraction of the Democratic caucus in Congress were a majority.
'exrreme'
Extreme acces to health care? Access to healthcare TO THE EXTREME! Personally I think protecting the profits and powers of an artificial middle-man is more extreme than letting people just have access to health care.
What do you mean by "access"? Health care is a scarce good which costs money to provide, including plenty of skilled labor by people who aren't slaves, they expect to get paid, and even have a choice about working.
I'm all in favor of letting everybody have access to all the health care they can pay for, provided by people who are willingly supplying it.
What I'm not cool with is robbing Peter to pay for Paul's medical care, or telling Paul that he's not allowed to buy medical care the government doesn't think is necessary, or telling Herbert that the can't SELL medical care outside the government's control. I don't want government control over the whole field, premised on the notion that you're providing access.
The scarcity is artificial, that's how insurance companies make so much money. In a wealthy nation there's no reason to deny people access to health care, there isn't even a reason to charge for it since everybody's paying for it through taxation, and private health insurance can co-exist, it just can't control.
Again, nobody is being denied access to health care. They're just being denied a subsidy. People can, today, get all the health care they're willing to pay for.
Indeed, if you got your way, that would STOP being true, there'd be rationing.
They're being denied access to healthcare without massive bills. It's dumb.
nobody is being denied access to health care. They're just being denied a subsidy
For many people, and many treatments, one is the same as the other.
Economic freedom is a pinched and insulated view of freedom.
This is just more Bellmore conspiracy theory. Democrats, in general but not all of them, want single payer healthcare to mean a national healthcare system like one finds in all other "western" countries, which also includes a private insurance market. While extending Medicare/Medicaid has its issues, this is the general gist of what Democrats are advocating for. It's worth noting that one can purchase private insurance designed to enhance and extend Medicare coverage today. So the basic Democratic plan is single payer with the option of private coverage if one can afford it.
Again, Calcare in California was going to outlaw private insurance. So was "Medicare for all", at the federal level. These were serious proposals. They weren't defeated by people like you, they were defeated by people like ME.
Sanders would make it illegal to sell private health insurance that covers the benefits offered by Medicare for All. This provision would certainly be subject to lawsuits. A subsequent section says additional benefits not covered by Medicare for All (cosmetic surgery, for instance) could be covered by a supplemental insurance plan.
This is highly misleading. In Canada for example (and I would suspect also in many other 'single payer' health systems), you have the option of buying private insurance, but only for services not covered by the universal public health-care system.
So if your province nominally covers hip replacements or hernia surgery, but there's a 6 month long waiting period for those treatments, you're SOL and can't use private insurance to get access to the medical service you need.
re: "The US is the only Western democracy in which abortion is still even being fought over."
That is wildly untrue. Several other countries have had relatively long-standing permissions for abortion in one form or another but many others have changed their stance only very recently and it remains deeply controversial.
Among the Western democracies, there are time limits and regulations, but the idea that abortion should be banned outright is strictly an American phenomenon.
Sadly, no.
Abortion is banned outright in Malta.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220630-malta-to-review-application-of-abortion-ban-after-us-tourist-case
Where do you come up with this nonsense? "Among Irish people ages 55 and older, the prevailing view is that abortion should be mostly or entirely illegal (55%) " https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/29/ireland-abortion-vote-reflects-western-europe-support/
Apparently what they say about Americans' abysmal knowledge about the world outside their borders is true
Not hardly. Your ignorance on the topic is appalling.
Most of the developed world had stricter limits than the Roe regime, so where does that leave your comparison.
Also, there is no magical universal 'left/right' definition. The traditional 'right' in European politics is royalists and their intellectual inheritors. US politics doesn't even have a 'European Right'.
Conservativism cannot fail, only be failed.
There is nothing new under the Sun…
Especially not in S_0's tediously one-note comments.
I only think you know the definition of “tedious” because you probably hear it a lot. Although admittedly that’s a thin basis on which to base my thought. Guess I always see the best in people.
Block me if you don't like my engagement with how comments are bad.
But I will never block Amos: 'Actually the conservative position going down in flames just proves how reasonable we are! This isn't blood in my mouth, it's victory wine!'
Just like Joe Biden.
LOL if you think I am of the opinion Biden has never failed.
Agreed. Leftists think anyone who doesn't follow 100% of their views on killing babies, sodomizing men to completion and spreading monkeypox, and on legalizing every worthless third worlder is evil.
Yeah, much better than your way; sodomizing men, but not to completion. That's just bad form!
In 2019, for the first time, discovered that those words penned in 1859. Because of course they did.
As it happens the Kansas Supreme Court currently consists of 5 Democratic appointees and 2 Republican appointees. Six of the seven (4 Democrats and 2 Republicans) face retention elections this year. They run without an opponent, and if they get more than 50% of the vote, they keep their jobs for another six years. If not, the governor appoints a replacement (via a convoluted process involving a nominating commission). The current governor, a Democrat, is also up for election this year.
Point being, given the way the current political winds are blowing, the Kansas Supreme Court may look quite different next year and might be less inclined to find a right to abortion in the state constitution.
I kinda doubt many justices would have much interest in invalidating such a clear election majority.
If it came before the justices, it would presumably be in the context of a restriction passed by the legislature. They would then have to judge if the restriction comported with the state constitution, and likely would not feel bound by the ludicrous, nakedly political interpretation of it promulgated by the justices in 2019.
Anyone so grotesquely, intellectually dishonest as to say "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" guarantees a right to an abortion will interpret any law to mean anything he wants it to.
You are rooting for some naked politics in the judiciary while claiming it’s actually the other guys who are political.
I expect to see a lot more of this legal realism for me but not for thee nonsense in the coming years.
This is a system, bucko. If you judge it by how much you like it’s outcomes you are doing it wrong.
There's always been a debate in this country over how courts have interpreted constitutional strictures, including accusations of outcome-oriented juisprudence.
The left does this plenty, too -- see the claims asserted in the comments on this post about 2A and Bruen for an example.
To be clear - you are embracing outcome-oriented jurisprudence?
Right wing policies get a Free Exercise pass and liberal policies asking for the same can go piss up a rope?
To be clear, it makes a lot of sense that you think someone who says there have long been "accusations of [X]" might be "embracing" X.
You came in as a reply to my taking issue with FD, who is hoping for a right-wing partisan turn for the Court to overturn this law. And then in the very next post called any kind of finding other than the one he liked to be 'grotesquely, intellectually dishonest.' Which seems to be an endorsement of politics over consistency.
You said there is nothing wrong with calling the other side outcome-oriented. To which I asked whether you endorsed FD's tangled amorality: 'my side is right by hook or by crook, and the other side is always in bad faith.'
So stay on track. FD *is* embracing X, In his OP of this thread.
Good thing justices aren't supposed to take into account what the public thinks, but what the words of law and constitution say.
Except wasn't that exactly what led to the Dobbs decision? What the public and government thought back when the Constitution was written regarding historic context of abortion?
Except Alito doesn't appear to have consulted any expert historians and instead just made it up based on what he though those people believed way back then--and surprise! They agreed with his own personally held opinion. Both originalists and textualists who are not experts on the historic context of the Constitution are just kidding themselves that they aren't amplifying contemporary opinion in some form or another.
Unrelated example: research the historic meaning of the word "sophisticated." If you referred to a woman in the 1800s as "sophisticated," what do you think might happen?
No mention of the ratfuckery attempted by GOP shitheads?
https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article264107401.html
I'm not sure how it could be phrased in a law, but this kind of shit should not be tolerated or protected from prosecution. It wasn't a misunderstanding - it was a blatant attempt to subvert democracy and attempt to get people to mis-vote against their actual desired outcome.
Just another example of the current GOP's complete lack of ethics.
Here's a link to what the texts said, since that story doesn't elaborate on the actual messages:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/08/02/kansas-abortion-texts/
There's no excuse for this.
As opposed to the modern left blatantly lying about guns, immigration, inflation, and so many others?
I'm not interested in your bullshit whataboutisms, which is one reason I had muted you previously. Back you go.
Thanks for posting the texts of the referendum. The only thing Lord Attlee and Baroness Thatcher ever agreed on is that referendums are a tool for dictators and demagogues, and this is why. It is difficult to imagine a more leading way to put the question. (Though I am of course pleased that it didn't work in this case.)
Not only is the vote surprising, it came about with an unexpected increase in voters who turned out.
"But before polls even closed, Kansas' chief election official, Secretary of State Scott Schwab, predicted that turnout in the August primary was on track to surpass the offices' projected 36% of the electorate and could go as high as 50%, a notably high rate for a midterm-year primary."
https://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-should-be-terrified-over-abortion-referendum-turnout-in-kansas-2022-8
Also, if you look at the county chart in the link, you'll get a reminder that wheat, cows, and, hogs don't vote.
The vote is only surprising if you deliberately misinterpret everything going on so I'm not shocked to see that from you.
And that's exactly why one man one vote was a mistake in Reynolds v. Sims. It's ridiculous that millions of urban liberals can wipe out the votes of everyone else.
It's more ridiculoul that everyone else can wipe out millions of votes of urban liberals.
Isn't this the outcome Dobbs promised? That the states would debate and resolve the question of abortion restrictions? Seems that is happening in KS, and happening peacefully: The people of KS have spoken.
I am personally glad that KS is confronting the question directly.
Pretty much. I might have preferred a different electoral outcome, but this IS the proper procedure for deciding these things, not judicial fiat.
Agreed. This is how this should be decided. By the voters.
Hilarious, Bellmore. Let's see you endorse the same, "proper procedure," to administer the results of Bruen.
In a recent reply to you I mentioned that the right wing notion of winning would need adjustment, given past over-reliance on structurally created advantages for a voter minority. I pointed out that right wingers confront an actual majority. I suggested right wingers should prepare for, "astounding," political developments. I condemned Dobbs/Bruen SCOTUS overreach, as mistakes which would lead to lost legitimacy for the Court.
You did not seem to agree at the time. Good to see you taking it in stride now. But I bet the Kansas result astounded Justice Alito.
Big difference, you fucking moron. The right to keep and bear arms is explicitly stated in the Constitution. The people have no more right to override it than they do to override the right to free speech.
Or rather, they would have to do so using Article V.
Yes. Australia confiscated most of their guns in 1996, and they went full authoritarian during COVID times. There's a reason that leftists want to ban all guns. Because guns get in the way of their perverted plans.
1. Australia's government is not liberal.
2. So guns were confiscated in 1996 as part of a perverted authoritarian plan to impose publc health restrictions during a pandemic in the 2020s.
3. And then lift the restrictions.
You're not very bright, are you?
Just trying to understand your point of view.
Australia had a right wing government during COVID, genius.
Even if the 2nd amendment did not exist, the federal government was not delegated any power to regulate the bearing of arms or to deny people's right to self-defense.
Yeah, and if the Court were still striking down laws the federal government wasn't delegated any power to enact, it would be a very different country.
How about we put to a vote whether Stephen Lathrop gets to have First Amendment rights to express himself?
A right being present or good to have is not contingent on it being continually infringed or not at the present moment.
“Don’t worry, losing this right won’t be too bad” is a current Republican line, but it’s kind of a bad way to think about rights.
Point being, it's not a "right". It's a policy issue with many subtle differences and interpretations, and details to be decided upon by the voters.
There's no historic "right" to an abortion. Roe v Wade magically somehow found it in a right to privacy...but then simultaneously limited the right to 26 weeks or so? Because it's not private at 26 weeks? It's like arguing that there was a right to gay marriage...but only until age 40. After than it could be banned. It made no sense. It really was the justices legislating...making wholesale law...from the bench.
That's the job of the people. Not the judges.
Armchair, I sense progress. Now do gun control.
Now do equal protection of the laws, Lathrop.
There is a historic right to bear arms. Recognized in the English Common Law and the Constitution. Historically upheld, regardless of the age of the individual. Historically, hostile governments have attempted to remove the right, against the will of the people, in order to preserve/increase their power.
In many ways it's like religion, free speech, and freedom of the press, freedoms which governments have historically tried to restrict and limit to increase their own power. Which is exactly why it's a protected right, and why the need is there.
AL, both begging the question and losing the thread of the OP's point.
The OP was about the outcome that the voters deciding was a clear good. I pointed out that this is not true - the whole point of a right is the voters don't get to decide that one.
You somehow lost that easy conceptual point and went off on an unresponsive point about abortion not being a right. Which was both not Commenter's point about Dobbs allowing Democracy to do it's thing, nor mine, which was in general about how rights function in a democracy.
You're not just a sloppy writer, you're a sloppy thinker.
"the whole point of a right is the voters don't get to decide that one."
Yeah, and the whole point of suborning judges into creating rights that have no constitutional basis is to subvert democracy by wrongly taking decisions away from the voters.
Are you suggesting that the only rights we have as individuals are those with a basis in the constitutional text? The text itself begs to differ.
suborning judges into creating rights
Brett, yet again, a judge disagreeing with your take is not the judge being suborned.
It's not bad faith to disagree with you; check your ego.
Your random insults aside (you can always tell when you're flailing because of the insults).... one line struck me.
"I pointed out that this is not true - the whole point of a right is the voters don't get to decide that one."
That "easy conceptual point" of yours is dead wrong. The truth is...voters DO get to decide what is and is not a right. Our rights, such as they are, were made and decided upon by voters. God did not arrive on high from Mount Washington and hand down a tablet of 10 Amendments. People wrong those amendments which gave such crucial rights as Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion. Those rights were voted on and approved by Congress. And voted again on and approved by the States. Voters, via representative democracy decided what was...and what was not...a right. And, if they so chose, could take away that right by amending the Constitution.
Voters decided certain concepts of law were so important that simple or transient majorities shouldn't be able to infringe upon them. They understand Government could use a temporary limited majority to abuse power. So, "Rights" were passed by supermajorities, and could only be repealed by the same supermajorities. It's a good system to avoid abuse of government.
Roe v Wade took that choice away from voters. They never agreed to a Constitutional Amendment protecting abortion. And never would have (certainly the 14th amendment ratification never imagined such)
Our rights, such as they are, were made and decided upon by voters.
First, a Constitutional Amendment is not lawmaking. Which was clearly the subject under discussion.
Second, those are not 'all of our rights.'
Voters decided certain concepts of law were so important that simple or transient majorities shouldn't be able to infringe upon them.
Look up what ratify means.
And the text of the Ninth Amendment.
None of which contradicts the point. The people in a democracy, the voters, ultimately decide what our legal rights are.
Apparently, Armchair Lawyer rejects the entire premise of the American experiment:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
"We" hold these truths...
Who is the "we" there? Consider that.
The people who signed the Declaration of Independence.
Who, as needs to be spelled out for Armchair, put forward the premise of the American experiment. Which Armchair rejects.
Wow. Just wow.
This is the same argument that there's no right to be "gay married" but there is a right be "married." For every argument about a right, one can narrow it down to the point of absurdity and then claim it isn't a right. The right to be free in your own person and determine your own healthcare (like vaccines, eh?) includes the right to have sex, use contraception, and terminate a pregnancy. All within reasonable limits that balance others' rights, just like any other constitutional right.
No, the argument is that there's a right to be married, and "married" actually MEANS two people of opposite sexes. That's what the word MEANT, before the judiciary decided to redefine it.
You are begging the question.
the right to have sex, use contraception, and terminate a pregnancy.
As they say on Sesame Street, one of these things is not like the others. See if you can figure out why.
zztop,
I can figure out that you want to claim that all three of these don't involve autonomy over one's reproductive system and health, but you'll need to import some religion to do the heavy lifting. Problem for you: we don't have to buy your religion.
Religion doesn't come into it at all.
Abortion, after a certain point in time, involves taking the life of another human being. I don't need to get into a philosophical debate or a religion based one regarding when exactly life begins, in order to know that there is no moral difference between killing a baby outside the birth canal and killing it when its head is just crowning.
I am an atheist, BTW, and believe abortions should be legal. I just don't buy into the nonsense that abortions are just like contraception or having sex.
Yeah, I'd say that women are lining up to use abortion as a contraception by gestating a fetus for nine months then having the abortion performed after her waters break.
This.
This is non-responsive to anything I wrote. The moral issue with late term pregnancies is obvious, which make is different than contraception.
You're beating up the strawman of late term abortions of viable, non-brain dead fetuses really well.
But all you originally wrote was about "terminate a pregnancy". Now you shift the goal posts when it is pointed out you are arguing about something virtually no one supports. The question in Roe and Kansas was about early term abortion. That is about a woman's autonomy over her body and reproductive system just like contraception and the right not to be told how and with whom it is permissible to have sex.
So defend what you originally wrote, or just admit that what we are talking about in this thread, early term abortion of a non-viable fetus, is of a piece with contraception in terms of the intimate family and health choices of a woman.
I don't buy into the nonsense that prohibitions on Plan B are any different than contraception. You're gonna need religion for that.
I also don't buy into the nonsense that early term abortions aren't a question of a woman's autonomy over her own body. To presume a fetus prior to viability is a person separate from the mother requires a religious jump.
I never said anything about Plan B, or very early stage abortion, but I explained quite clearly why in general, abortion is not on the same level as contraception, and religion doesn't come into it.
You also just said "abortion" which in the much, if not most, of the GOP includes plan B.
And you raised a strawman of a healthy babies head crowning and then being aborted. That's not the law was under Roe and that is not in any Democratic platform, unlike personhood at conception and no abortion, no exceptions, which is in GOP platforms.
I presume you think of yourself as evenhanded or something. The fact that you pick the most extreme pro-choice position, which virtually no one holds, and scoff at the most extreme forced birth position, which is written into GOP party platforms and has been in laws passed by GOP-controlled legislatures says a great deal about how honest and balanced you really are.
Is a killing a healthy, living crowning baby at 9 months gestation different from contraception? Sure. But that's not been the law anywhere in the U.S.
Is taking plan B virtually identical (to include, if I'm not mistaken, including the same hormones) to the pill? Of course it is. And that is the law in some states, is written into the GOP platform in at least one state, and is on the public agenda in other states.
That you want to play Sesame Street word games to obfuscate this fact does not speak well of you. You aren't the honest broker here.
No strawman . I was replying to the statement that "the right to have sex, use contraception, and terminate a pregnancy" are the same. They are not. I explained why. The "terminate a pregnancy" part of the statement was not qualified in any way, and would apply to forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head as it would to taking a Plan B pill.
If you want to make a more qualified statement, along the lines of ""he right to have sex, use contraception, and terminate a pregnancy in its first 3 days (Plan B)" are the same, I'd have no issue with that.
That's the discussion.
Literally nobody is advocating for "forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head".
But glad you conceded the relevant point, some forms of terminating a pregnancy, particularly ones being attacked by the GOP are like the right to contraception unless you assume blastocysts have souls.
That is simply false, and laughably so. The new Mayor of New York, for one, explicitly supports "day of birth" abortions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB2PTZ2i1xY
Pennsylvania Democrat representative Conor Lamb is another.
And arguably, so does anyone who voted for the WHPA, since the act allows abortions up to birth so long as one healthcare professional opines that it is required for the mother's physical or mental health.
Do you not know the meaning of the word "literally"?
Your YouTube video is a story by an uncommon news source of unknown credibility and does not include any video Mayor Adams saying what you purport to say he said. It also lacks any context to either the question (which was, according to the reporter, multi-part question) to which he reportedly answered "yes."
Currently, in New York, abortion is legal at up to 24 weeks of pregnancy and after 24 weeks if your health is at risk or your pregnancy will not survive. (So, no, not advocating shoving an icepick in the crowning head of a healthy, viable baby.)
But, even setting aside all of that, do you have any source where Mayor Adams supports or is "advocating for 'forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head'"? Of course you don't.
Which of us doesn't understand the definition of "literally"?
And, notably, you don't produce any quote or source even suggesting Connor Lamb has ever "advocat[ed] for 'forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head.'"
In fact, Paul Ryan has described Connor Lamb as pro-life because he is personally opposed to abortion. Period. Moreover, all I see is that he supported H.R. 3755, The Women's Health Protection Act of 2021, which emphatically does not include any advocacy for "'forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head.'" The closest the bill comes is protecting the right to abortions post-viability when continuation of the pregnancy would pose a risk to the mother's life or health. You can argue, as I am sure you will, that that permits some doctors in bad faith to shove an icepick into a crowning baby's head without any real risk to the life or health of the mother beyond completing a birth already started. But the law specifically provides that physicians must make that determination in good faith.
So, while you might think the law isn't written strictly enough, it is not, in any way, advocacy for "'forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head.'"
Again, you don't know what literally means. Or you're just a troll.
I'll know which if you come back and admit that, literally, no one of any prominence is advocating for "'forcing an icepick into a crowning baby's head.'" Or produce a quote, an actual quote, to that effect.
Do ever get tired of playing these stupid games? here's a mainstrem news sotuce with the same story about Adams' posiotn - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/eric-adams-blasts-pro-life-radical-extremists-women-have-right-abortions-up-until-day-birth
There are quite a few people in your camp who support abortion all the way to day of birth, including the ones I listed (Admas, Lamb). If you think there is a huge difference between doing that with an icepick or some other method, then you don't possess the requisite moral compass needed to carry on an intelligent conversation about this topic.
zztop8970,
Wow! You are some kind of dishonest.
First, if you were going to be a word pedant later (do you know what literally means), then maybe you shouldn't have started the conversation with graphic hyperbole. Or to spell it out, if you're concerned about the icepick in a crowning head not being what anyone literally supports, but you think other things are the moral equivalent, then you should have said what you meant. Not suddenly change to, "well, yes, literally no one has expressed support for an icepick in the head of a crowning baby, but these other things are the moral equivalent!" Pathetic.
Second, this clip of Mayor Adams proves that the original report was inaccurate, to put it charitably. The person does ask "Day of birth totally fine?" And he starts a sentence, "No, I do not think . . . " Which if taken literally, is a rejection of the question. But he stops midsentence, so we don't know what he was going to say, and then he continues about women should have the right to control their bodies and men shouldn't be able to tell them what to do with their bodies.
If you don't see the dishonesty of your and the first news clip's summary and interpretation of Mayor Adams' statement, you're too dumb for a conversation.
If you do see that dishonesty, then you knowingly passed it on as truth and, so, haven't the integrity for a good faith discussion of this issue.
Also, when he had time to provide more nuanced answers in position statements, etc., it wasn't what you are gleaning from this one clip, but support of New York's abortion laws don't permit your hypothetical.
Given the context, it is quite a stretch to say that Mayor Adams literally meant it's okay to abort a healthy baby whose head is crowning. The example you chose to use.
And if you have any integrity, write out the transcript and see that the answer to "Day of birth totally fine." is "No, I do not think..."
And I've already discussed Connor Lamb, you're just lying with not even a fig leaf of justification for that one.
Given that you won't be honest about the positions that most Democrats have on the issue, much less these two gentlemen, then you're the one with the moral deficit.
(And you say my side, etc., implying you know what my side is or even that I have a "side" in the D versus R food fight. Which fits right in with you making unwarranted assumptions and basing your arguments on your fantasies rather than realities.)
What a dishonest liar you are.
the transcript is as follows:
Q: Do you think there should be ANY limitation on abortion?
Adams: No I do not.
Q:None? Day of birth, totally fine?
Admas: No I do not . Women should...
Any person with minimum reading skills understands the 2nd 'no I do not " to be the same as the first one - he does not believe the should be any limitations, including DOB abortions - that is how every news outlet that reported on this reported it.
And there's you - a game playing , dishonest lawyer , with no moral compass, who thinks there's some moral difference between DOB abortion with an icepick and DOB abortion with soem other means. Maybe you opposition is that you;'re actually a janitor in real life, and the ice pick abortion is too messy to clean up.
zztop8970,
You're being dishonest.
First, they were protesting the Dobbs decision which removed protections in the first trimester. Adams is walking in a protest and the answer to the first question, while literally saying yes to "no restrictions" without limitation was in the context of Dobbs removing protection for abortion with no limitations in the first trimester.
Second, the reporter* obviously understood there was ambiguity, so she asked a follow-up question: "Day of birth, totally fine?" To which he replied "No, I do not think..." Which taken literally, means the first literal interpretation of his answer was wrong. Taken in the spirit of a spontaneous Q/A while Adams is clearly only half engaged, could mean almost anything. But what it can't be interpreted as without complete dishonesty is that the answer "no" to "Day of birth, totally fine?" is that he actually meant yes.
Third, this doesn't require reading skills. It's a fucking verbal conversation.
Fourth, "that is how every news outlet that reported on this reported it." The only "news" organizations who covered it were right wing hack organizations who jumped to your dishonest interpretation knowing their idiot listeners wouldn't pay attention to what he actually said.
Fifth, And there's you - a game playing , dishonest lawyer , with no moral compass, who thinks there's some moral difference between DOB abortion with an icepick and DOB abortion with soem other means. Maybe you opposition is that you;'re actually a janitor in real life, and the ice pick abortion is too messy to clean up.
Knowing you are losing you (a) resort to ad hominem that (b) is based on fantasy views that you attribute to me. I haven't even said whether I support abortion at any point, much less an icepick in a crowning babies head. But, because your go to move is dishonesty, you decide "own" the fake me you've constructed in your head.
You're a dishonest troll. You make shit up. You provide links to false stories. You misrepresent the content of links you do share. You provide no evidence to unsupported assertions when shown to be BS (Connor Lamb). And you resort to name-calling when you know you've been caught with your pants on fire.
At least now I know you have no interest in good faith discussion of issues. Anyone who can interpret "no" as "yes" because of his awesome mind reading skills is not worthy of engagement.
The transcript is, once again:
Q: Do you think there should be ANY limitation on abortion?
Adams: No I do not.
Q:None? Day of birth, totally fine?
Admas: No I do not . Women should...
Anyone with reading comprehension understands the second "no I do not" to be said in the exact same context as the first one - he does not think there should be ANY limitations - and that's how the story was reported by all who covered it - not just FOX News, but also USA Today (https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2022/05/23/abortion-without-limits-democrats/9835652002/?gnt-cfr=1)
CNN, as well: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/juliorosas/2022/05/19/nyc-mayor-adams-doubles-down-women-have-right-to-abortions-up-until-day-of-birth-n2607522
zz, my god you are dishonest.
It takes an extreme amount of hubris to "know" that "no" actually means "yes". Again, it's a verbal exchange, not a written document. But basic reading comprehension of your transcript includes a question and then "no" which, you're apparently surprised to learn, means no following the ordinary rules of the English language. (And I've already described why the context supports the normal interpretation, including because the questioner felt the need to ask a follow up due to ambiguity in the original, making "no" an expected answer if Adams didn't mean what you and the reporter originally thought he meant. But because you can't get beyond your expectations to an actual, sensible understanding of the exchange, you think "no" means "yes". (I'll throw you a bone: A plausible reading is that Adams avoided answering the "day of birth" question. But he damn sure didn't say yes. It's dishonest to say he did.)
Your first link is to USA Today, but you misrepresent it as reporting by the news department at USA Today. It was an opinion piece by a known right winger. Your characterization of the piece was dishonest. Even the right wing hack didn't say, from what I can tell (behind a pay wall so can't read the article), that Adams answered "yes" to "day of birth", but, the headline at least more defensibly states that Adams "refused to say if they'd put any limits on abortion." if he did say it, he's still a known right wing hack and I don't care how many people say no means yes, it still means no. (You can plausibly say he was giving a canned sentence in response to second question, so wasn't actually answering the question, particularly given he stopped in the middle of the sentence, but then what you have is a refusal to answer the question, not a yes. Be honest.)
And you lie again by claiming your next link is from CNN. It is from Townhall, a right wing outlet of opinion pieces, not really a journalistic endeavor and definitely not CNN. Just one more "mistake" or lie. Admit it was a mistake and I'll believe you. Don't and I'll know it was a lie.
Even that piece at least accurately quotes an interview just a couple days later in which the following exchange occurred:
Question: "You say no restrictions at all?"
Adams: "No, I say and I continue to say and I stand by this, a woman should determine what they’re going to do with their bodies."
Undoubtedly, you'll interpret this no as a yes too.
It's insane. No means no, zz. No matter how much you secretly suspect Adams or your date meant yes.
Stop the lying.
Also, I notice crickets on Connor Lamb. It would be helpful if you just admitted you were wrong. Otherwise, I'll justifiably assume you aren't just someone prone to mistakes, but that you have no integrity. A man with integrity admits his mistakes. (And I have in VC comment sections because I actually have integrity. It's becoming clear you don't.)
The Townhall link has a screen capture and video of a CNN interview with Adams, in which the caption clearly says he supports day of birth abortions,
You are not fooling anyone with your walls of text and personal insults.
zztop,
At least you clarified the CNN issue. Yes, at the bottom of the article, there is a clip from CNN (embedded in a tweet). The caption says one thing. Notably, with that caption, the exchange on CNN went:
Question: "You say no restrictions at all?"
Adams: "No, I say and I continue to say and I stand by this, a woman should determine what they’re going to do with their bodies."
Again, expressly denying your interpretation that he supports no restrictions, ever, including up to the day of birth. Hardly the smoking gun you need.
No, the Dobbs decision “promised” abortion bans in the states leading to an effort at banning it nationally.
Only if you're a leftist moron deliberately and maliciously misinterpreting what is going on to stoke division and political gain.
Nope, what I wrote is exactly what was promised by the Dobbs decision. Ask Alito, he’ll back me up.
I am sure you can quote either the text of Dobbs or Alito saying that. Go on, we'll wait.
In overruling Roe, the Supreme Court may have saved the Democrats come November.
The Democrats will preserve the slaughter of baby Democrats and baby diverses. That is how they have rolled for 200 years.
That's actually a more important point than you appreciate. Democrats do things that are right, even if it costs them politically -- end Jim Crow in the South, support abortion rights even though most aborted fetuses would have grown up to vote Democrat, push through Obamacare, stand with minorities. I'm trying to think when was the last time the GOP pushed something they believed in knowing it would cost them the next election.
Denying vets healthcare?
I assume you're talking about the current legislation, where Republicans are complaining that the clause covering 'burn pit' illnesses is so vague that it just covers anything, even if unrelated to service.
Nobody is talking about denying vets healthcare. How would that work, they'd check your ID when you tried to walk into a clinic, and call the cops on you if you were a vet? We're talking about what health care will be subsidized.
Nobody believes any of the lies and rationalisations. They just don't care enough about vets' health care not to casually remove their support out of pique.
LOL Brett, you buy whatever bullshit the GOP puts out there, eh?
I believe they are reversing themselves. So much for a bad law, eh?
Democrats do thing they think are right. Which isn't quite the same thing as their being right, as though right or wrong were some objective matter, rather than opinion.
But I have said before that, while I think the Democrats are wrong about a lot of things, one thing you can't say about them is that they're unwilling to take a temporary political hit to accomplish something they want. Unlike the Republicans, who actually DO shy away from any win that might come at a cost.
I've got some notions why this difference exists, but it is conspicuous.
The difference exists because Democrats know that they only have to wait another 20 years for the white population to die off and be replaced by illiterate mestizos, and their work is done for them.
Between abortion killing of minority babies and somehow every single white person dying in twenty years, there are some mixed Great Replacement Theory messages coming in here.
I support legal abortion, solely because 70% of those aborted are non-white.
To elaborate, I care very much about diversity, but on a world level. The percentage of the population that is white has dropped from 25% to 6% in the last century. That means to maintain diversity, we need to encourage white births, and discourage non-white births.
No it doesn't, and no we don't.
Yes, it does. For the people that built the civilized world to drop to 6% of the world's population is deeply troubling.
It really isn't. The people who built the world as it is are all dead and gone.
'Democrats do thing they think are right.'
The exigencies and practicalities of political compromise aside, I should bloody well hope so.
Hitler did the things he thought were right. So did Pol Pot. Saying somebody is doing the things they think are right tells you diddly squat apart from knowing WHAT they think is "right".
Indeed, people doing what they think is right, rather than just pursuing self interest, are DANGEROUS.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
If the alternative is for people to do the things they think are bad, then you have the Republicans. If you think Pol Pot and Hitler weren't pursuing their self-interests, then, hoo boy.
An apt quote when talking about moral busybodies who want to control other people's bodies and reproductive choices. I just don't think it supports the side of this argument that you apparently think it does.
Democrats of the south cannot hardly be credited with ending the thing which they started. Post civil war republicans sent many blacks to the US congress; dems, not so much.
Most people don't care about abortion that much.
Seeing inflation devastate their income...that they care about.
Kansas had good turnout because abortion was on the ballot as a separate item. When it comes to bible thumper vs. critical race theorist in November we'll find out how many voters really put abortion law number one on their list of grievances.
There are far more Bible thumping Republicans than there are critical race Democrats.
That's because critical race Democrats aren't actually a thing. It's easy to outnumber the imaginary, even an imaginary unstoppable horde.
You think so? Wait until the Republican campaign ads run in the next few months.
'critical race theorist'
Fighting straw men.
I doubt it. Most people don't care enough, and those who do would not vote Republican if the Democrats put up a dead yellow dog. When the economy is in a shambles, other issues pale in comparison. Not to mention that abortion will remain legal in much of the country, including, it now appears, in Kansas.
"What's the Matter With Kansas?" - Thomas Frank
Wow, a State deciding how to do things in their own state? What a Concept!!
Now see if you can pass an initiative taking the judicial creation of a right to abortion in Kansas, and writing it explicitly into the state constitution. To secure it from a change in the court's composition. Bet that doesn't pass, either.
People default to voting against amendments.
I've read that one should assume undecided voters in polls break 2:1 against an amendment or initiative.
Two things are different in Kansas. First, abortion is something people have a strong opinion on compared to classification of contractors as employees or the number of liquor licenses a single company can control. Second, the way the amendment was presented was said to be confusing. A yes vote says no to abortion.
Slightly confusing, and people on both sides tried to exploit that.
Bellmore — Give abortion a break. Change the subject to Bruen. Frame a Kansas constitutional amendment to endorse the 2A with its full text, including the militia clause. Enable access to fully automatic arms for enrolled militia members acting under well-regulated military discipline. Guarantee a right to a firearm of any description for self-protection in the home. Stipulate other types of firearms (without automatic or semi-automatic actions and interchangeable magazines) allowed for public carry, including for the purpose of self-defense. See how it does at the polls. You good with that?
Stephen, no matter how convenient you would find it, we are NEVER going to pretend that the right to keep and bear arms isn't already expressly protected by the Constitution. Not a matter of reading some vague hortatory language to apply to it, an actual, explicit, on point amendment.
So the cases are completely different, and we're not going to humor you by pretending otherwise.
But if you want an amendment at the state level, This passed in 2014. Iowa will be voting on a similar amendment this fall. If it passes, we'll be down to only five states that lack state constitutional protection for this right.
By contrast, no state has EVER repealed such a protection. And state constitutions are relatively easy to amend.
The idea that this right is somehow unpopular is manifestly a delusion.
No worries, Brett. As long as you keep pretending that half the language in 2A doesn’t exist I think we’re good.
I don't pretend any of the language doesn't exist. The implications of the preamble are very important to me, but they aren't what you want them to be.
Pretend they don’t exist, pretend they don’t say what they mean, potato, po-bullshit.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The preamble explains why the right shall not be infringed, which hardly provides you with an excuse for infringing it, or narrows the group who get the right beyond the people. The only real implication it has for the extent of the right is that it is, as the Miller court correctly noted, a right to weapons suitable for militia use. Or, as Teche Coxe put it, "every terrible implement of the soldier".
Just like all the other rights have a 'why' clause in them.
The right can't lean on the 9A on the right to self defense because of all the other rights they hate, but their alternative is some piss-poor textualism.
The copyright clause has a "why" clause. And New Hampshire's free speech clause did as well. It wasn't uncommon at the time.
"Free speech and Liberty of the press are essential to the security of Freedom in a State: They ought, therefore, to be inviolably preserved."
The copyright clause has a "why" clause. And New Hampshire's free speech clause did as well. It wasn't uncommon at the time.
Not uncommon, says the guy with one non-right as an example, and a state constitution as the other.
Your comments on this thread are reminding me that you're a piece of shit, and I don't know why I haven't blocked you that; fixing that now.
" says the guy with one non-right as an example,"
"Copyright clause"
2A -
The first phrase of 2A protects the right of the people to form militias for the common defence.
The second phrase of 2A protects the individual right of the people to keep and bear arms.
Its 2 rights , not one single right individual or collective which are mutually exclusive.
If that's what was meant, it should've been written that way. The way it is written it clearly only applies to the forming of militias. But I'm not an originalist, and presumably you are. Apparently originalists like nothing so much as tortured interpretations of clear text. I don't mind broad interpretations of text in the interest of expanding individual rights, but you do in other contexts.
And even to the extent that polls show majority support for banning "assault weapons," that's only because the mainstream media has been promulgating any-gun propaganda steeped in bad faith.
I've had acquaintances say they want to preserve the right to keep and bear arms but want to ban assault weapons. So I ask them "Did you know that there's no way to ban assault weapons without banning all guns?" They then say "Wait, what do you mean?" I then explain that what makes an "assault weapon" deadly is its ability to fire many rounds rapidly, and that pretty much every semi-automatic rifle and handgun is in the same category. I further explain that there's no way to make a gun useful for defense without also making it useful for offense.
Once we're done, the people that truly did support gun rights say "Oh, well then I guess we can't ban assault weapons after all."
Those that want to ban them anyway are those that actually want to ban all guns, and see this as better than nothing.
There's no good faith argument to ban assault weapons.
SL are you even aware of how many states have voter-approved RKBA language in their constitutions that are even stronger than the 2A?
tkamenick — Do you take that to mean that an actual majority of the people in the United States would vote for that language? I'm guessing that most states with that kind of language feature narrow majorities, or actual minorities, which favor it. And that the quarter of the nation's population which lives in states which do not have that language would very strongly disfavor having it imposed on them.
On balance, I think the pro-gun position is in the national minority. I have little doubt that only a minority of Americans are gun owners—probably a smallish minority if you reckon as non-owners the members of gun-owning households who actually wish the guns were not there.
I also think the pro-gun political position is destined to decline. Increasing public gun violence will continue; it will somewhat correlate with increasing gun prevalence. Tolerance among non-gun-carriers for the minority who espouse pro-gun ideology will begin to decline in response to increased gun violence.
I understand that many gun fans who comment on this blog suppose they speak for a strong majority of Americans. I just think they are mistaken about where they stand. I am keenly aware that many American gun owners are themselves unwilling to endorse the extremist pro-gun advocacy this blog so often examples.
The good news here is that an amendment was proposed and voted on. That's exactly the way things need to be done. Regular order.
The bad news is that the voters in Kansas still see no contradiction between the belief that "All men are possessed of equal and inalienable natural rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and the practice of legal killing -- legal only because the victim is deemed too young to deserve the protection of the law.
The good news is that now those in Kansas who love life are free to keep on making a case for it, educating voters, encouraging them to be more consistent and merciful, and then calling another vote.
DaveM — In short, the remedy for overreach is repeated overreach?
If the definition of "overreach" is just a 60/40 split, then literally everything the Biden administration has done for the past 12 months would be what, a double overreach? Happily, that's not the definition.
You are talking to people who have worked for 50 years against what they consider an immoral act, the intentional taking of innocent human life, made all the worse by the fact that our legal system has been permitting it. Have there been other examples throughout history where morally indefensible practices have been given the protection of the law? Absolutely. Has that legal status kept them from being opposed by people of good conscience? No, it has not.
I, for one, will never accept that elective abortion is the correct answer to any problem. It is barbarism, plain and simple. I completely accept that there are problems in the world, and I happily give my time and treasure to help solve them. But I will never, ever support the killing of one's own children in the womb as some sort of "solution".
There has been one other culture in our recent past that had proposed a "solution" to what they believed was life not worth the living. Our current culture is very close to believing the same, making the same arguments, ramping up the killing. This I promise to oppose.
Now do the death penalty.
If you don't think courts can take away rights as part of criminal punishments, you are in for a rude awakening.
Custodial sentences remove freedom of movement, for example.
They can, and do, but should do so no more than is necessary. Killing someone when locking them up will suffice to achieve the government's objectives is unconscionable.
I strongly suspect the majority don't believe a fetus has the same legal or moral standing as a born human being (i.e., a person), for if they did they would also have to believe a woman who has an abortion is a first-degree murderer (and so too are the owners and staff at IVF clinics and researchers in embryonic stem cells).
This pro-abortion argument that abortion must either be first-degree murder or equivalent to swatting a fly isn't compelling.
"a fetus has the same legal or moral standing as a born human being"
Maybe try starting with, does an unborn human being have more or less legal and moral standing than a dog? And work your way from there.
I'm not arguing abortion is the equivalent of swatting a fly and of course a fetus has a greater moral and legal standing than a dog.
"of course a fetus has a greater moral and legal standing than a dog."
Let's say I don't want my dog any more. Can I kill it?
Generally, no. But in the case of a fetus, unlike with a dog, there is a competing liberty interest that justifies an abortion at least through the first trimester in my opinion.
Your opinion is relatively reasonable. But what about my liberty interest in not having to use my body to work to feed and take care of the dog, endure barking and whining, take them outside, wake up at night, take them for walks and give them exercise, to not have my house sullied with fur and poop and slobber and use my body to clean that, etc.?
You say that generally I should not be able to kill my dog if I don't want it any more, and that a fetus has or should have more legal and moral standing than a dog, but that there is a competing liberty interest that justifies and abortion at least in the first trimester. What is the nature of the liberty interest? Is it always present or just in some cases?
Sell the dog or give it to the dog pound. The liberty interest in controlling whether to carry to term and then have your life upended by raising the child is far greater than your liberty interest in caring for dog. And sorry no, turning a dog over to the pound is far less a burden than putting up your biological child for adoption.
"And sorry no, turning a dog over to the pound is far less a burden than putting up your biological child for adoption."
Under safe haven laws, you can drop off your baby at the fire department, no questions asked, no paperwork or anything.
I think the emotional harm in giving up your child is far greater than dropping off your dog. But even if it were, you still have carrying the liberty interest of not carrying a pregnancy to term.
Am I correct you don't believe a fetus is a person (if you did, then abortion would have to be first-degree murder)? If so, then how do you weigh the liberty interests of a pregnant woman versus the life of the fetus? And the liberty interests of a couple using IVF versus the life of unused embryos? And the liberty interests of sick persons versus the life of embryos killed for stem-cell research?
I do agree that carrying a pregnancy to term is a significant burden. Though once you are pregnant a significant part of that is already incurred and unavoidable.
I don't agree with the emotional harm from giving up your child bit. You'll have more emotional harm from killing it.
"Am I correct you don't believe a fetus is a person"
A person just means someone with legal rights. Under Roe, a fetus is not a person at least for purposes of the Constitution, that was very explicit. I am not sure if that is still intact after Dobbs?
You raise good questions that honestly, I'm not sure of the best detailed answers. I'm aware of some scholars that write on these issues, such as Francis Beckwith and others listed here: https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/academic.html
I'm glad to see this result as a policy matter. I thought that Roe v. Wade was mistaken, and that decisions about abortion should, as a federal constitutional matter, be left to the political process.
I assume that Prof. Volokh explains his thinking on Roe in detail elsewhere. Perhaps he is sympathetic to originalist arguments or Alito's reliance on history and tradition or has some other reason. But for the historical argument, if they are looking at time periods from before the Founding to the adoption of the 14th Amendment, I find that to be completely useless in deciding whether abortion is a right. Very few of the people affected by any bans on abortion enacted during that time had any say whatsoever in them. It will be interesting to see what the exit polls on this question say, when broken down demographically.
The poll I linked above (https://reason.com/volokh/2022/07/11/harvard-harris-poll-on-abortion/) says women are not much different than men on abortion policy.
I was specifically thinking about how men vs. women voted on this particular amendment. As Prof. Volokh points out, voters are generally fairly evenly divided between mostly legal/mostly illegal and yet they voted to keep the status quo 60-40 in a fairly reliably red state.
That's always been the case. Women shouldn't be allowed to vote, but not because of this issue.
You are truly a gem— never change
I ain't evolving. I'll never change and agree with your Groomers that it's acceptable for homosexual transgender kindergarten teachers to teach their students about the virtues of gay sex.
Not sure what that has to do with not allowing women to vote but OK!!! Don’t you change!
Can you expand on your argument here? I'm having trouble seeing why you think the second sentence supports the conclusion of the first: if anything, it seems like the opposite.
the basic reason to have democracy (and I use that word in its most broad sense, not as an invitation to argue over whether the U.S. is a democracy or a republic) is to implement what the Declaration of Independence said: that the just powers of government are derived from the consent of the governed. What I am saying, then, is that at least until women were guaranteed an equal right to vote, government didn’t have their consent. Any laws passed restricting abortion during that time would not have been a “just” exercise of government power. Therefore, originalist arguments based on the existence of such laws as proof that abortion wasn’t a right rooted in history and tradition are not valid, in my opinion.
When you really think about the time period in which Roe was decided, that decision was a consequence of women finally starting to achieve more equality in political power. Getting the right to vote was a start, but it didn’t really become close to a reality until the 60’s and 70’s.
And it doesn’t really matter, either, that you could find women that were against abortion before the sexual revolution. Until they had close to equal political power (and some will certainly argue that they still don’t), their lack of an equal seat at the table negates the legitimacy of any restrictions on any individual woman.
That is my point. Conservative arguments along originalist lines against a right to abortion inherently rely on a history where women were not equal citizens. I think it is right there in the word, conservative, even. The point of conservative politics often seems to be to try and conserve existing power structures.
Noscitur,
Could you explain how it increases the legitimacy of a law if the people affected by the law have no say in the enactment of that law?
It seems self-evidently clear that laws enacted by the people who must live under them are more legitimate than laws imposed upon them by others. Have you read any political thinker that endorses your position that it is better to have laws imposed on some by others?
"Judges can make up imaginary bullshit and change the Constitution unilaterally, if I feel like something is unfair."
Even if that was anything like what I was saying, is it really better than this?
"Judges should interpret the Constitution to mean what they want it to mean and to justify their preferences by cherry picking from among the history of American leaders that were dead long before those judges were born, regardless of whether those leaders lived up to the lofty ideals of the Founding."
There is no need to "make up imaginary bullshit" or to "change the Constitution unilaterally" to get results that expand individual freedom. The words are already there. What is needed is to not think that the beliefs and attitudes of people that wouldn't let women own property independent of the men in their lives, vote, or make other basic decisions about their own lives, matter for determining what rights women have now.
Sorry for being flippant. I confused you with Jason Cavanaugh.
I do not think that judges should cherry pick history to justify their preferences. I think that they should interpret the Constitution according to an objective, static meaning of the words contained therein. Any review of history necessary to do that should be accurate and balanced.
"What is needed is to not think that the beliefs and attitudes of people that wouldn't let women own property . . . matter for determining what rights women have now."
I do not think their beliefs and attitudes should matter, or at least should not be dispositive, for determining what rights women have or should have now. And they don't. We have innumerable federal and state legislative actions, regulations, state constitutions and amendments, and federal constitutional amendments (like the 19th) all of which bear on such questions and all of which were enacted by legitimate political process. And neither do these beliefs and attitudes factor in any modern discussion of what rights women should have. But within a narrow question of what the 14th amendment means, those beliefs and attitudes can be pertinent to illustrating the objective, static meaning of the words used and what rights may be specifically enforceable thereby (not to be confused with any suggestion that they are pertinent to the question of what rights women should have, or do have in all other cases or pursuant to innumerable other laws and constitutional questions, or do have in any natural rights sense).
I do not think that judges should cherry pick history to justify their preferences. I think that they should interpret the Constitution according to an objective, static meaning of the words contained therein. Any review of history necessary to do that should be accurate and balanced.
This presumes that there is an objective, static meaning of words to be found. Or that this objective meaning was shared widely by those living at that time. But representatives at various levels that voted for the Constitution and its amendments can and did have different ideas about what they were voting in favor of.
History isn't like science. In science, we assume that there are fixed laws of nature that we can uncover through the scientific method. The theories and models we have and consider to be "correct" are the ones that fit the evidence from observations and experimentation we have made so far. History isn't like that. There isn't an objective standard to judge things against. They can only keep looking through surviving records and then arguing over what those facts tell us now.
And neither do these beliefs and attitudes factor in any modern discussion of what rights women should have.
There, you are making an is-ought distinction between what we may now judge to be rights women should have and what the Constitution actually protects. But here's the thing. The Ninth Amendment exists and says explicitly that the Constitution is never to be construed to limit the rights of the people to those enumerated. That makes it inevitable that judges will need to decide cases where people are claiming to have a right not mentioned in the Constitution. So, how to make those decisions is the question. We can't say that a right doesn't exist if it isn't mentioned in the Constitution, because it tells us not to do that.
Conservatives and originalism propose that 'new' rights not previously recognized should be those that are rooted in "history and tradition". But as I have been saying, that is giving virtually all of the weight of the analysis to the people in power in the past that we know denied equal rights to all kinds of disfavored groups.
I found a really interesting article just now that effectively challenges my views on this kind of "dead-hand" criticism of originalism. But it still leaves me unpersuaded that we get better law by sticking with what people that, at times, wielded power unjustly thought the words in the Constitution mean. We will always need to be able to say that the Constitution sets down rules that live up to its own highest ideals, even when the people that wrote it did not.
Jason, I honestly could not have thought of, or come up with , the idea you are making. This is an astounding assertion. How could the concept of originalism be valid when half the population had no say in it whatsoever until women gained the right to vote in 1920?
As I just linked into my reply to M L, I just found an article that I need to think about some more that might change how I think about this. But my assertion is that for any law to bind us, we have to agree that it binds us in some fashion. And if the "just powers of government" are derived from the "consent of the governed", that has to be an ongoing process. Every new member of society needs to be brought into to society's existing agreements.
There is a lot of interesting theory and philosophy behind originalism. I am certainly vulnerable to viewing it according to the flawed way that conservative judges can use it, or abandon it in favor of some other method when it suits their preferred outcome better. That is going to be true of any method of constitutional interpretation. The goal of originalism, to find a more stable and politically neutral method of constitutional interpretation, is a worthy goal. I am still skeptical that such a thing exists, though. A more common law or "living constitution" approach may turn out to be more reliable at protecting individual rights. Time will tell.
"A more common law or "living constitution" approach may turn out to be more reliable at protecting individual rights. Time will tell."
Time has told.
Originalism necessarily bakes into the fabric of society the rights deemed important by white, land-owning, slave-holding men and excludes rights that are primarily important to women, non-whites, and the poor. One of the ways it does this is evident in so much of today's politics. To get a Constitutional amendment to protect abortion, for example, requires significant support from white men (or near unanimity among everyone else). Thus, assuming Alito's originalism on this issue is correct, white men were able to deny a right to women and minorities that, if they could choose at present, would have enshrined in the Constitution. (Or it would appear likely so as nearly 2/3 of women support abortion being legal in all or most cases and every racial group other than whites supports abortion being legal in all or most cases by greater than 2 to 1 and up to 3 to 1 margins.
Originalism necessarily skews the legal landscape to the group that created the rights in the first place, which is a serious problem when that group excluded well over half of the population. (Someone said half, but is seems people always forget that enslaved people made up half or nearly half of many southern states.)
Consequently, the rights protected or rejected by originalism represent the desires of roughly 1/4 of the population of the country at the time of the Founding (who of course are all now long dead, raising further issues about the justice of subjecting people generations later to the Founders' view of rights worth protecting unless supermajorities can be mustered to right them into the Constitution, rather than acknowledging the one thing the Founders got right was to not make certain things, particularly including the scope of rights, subject to detailed exposition, but rather the subject of broad principles to be interpreted and implemented by later generations, guided by practice, increased knowledge, and lived experience.
I fully expected Blackman to have three pouty posts up on this long before any other conspirator was awake. People can always surprise you.
He did a bunch of return it to the states, roe was judicial supremacy, this is real democracy, etc. posts in the last few months. So he needs at least a few weeks before he writes up the ten part originalist case for SCOTUS declaring embryos are people under the fourteenth amendment and declare all abortion rights unconstitutional.
Tell you what: Come back in a month and let's see if he actually does that.
Although, wow, interpreting that vague preamble as creating a right to abortion is the epitome of the “let judges make law” mindset that Dobbs repudiated.
But state courts do have jurisdiction over interpreting state constitutions, so it's not a federal matter. If they legislature really wants to, they could impeach the judges responsible.
Like I said above, I can't say I'm happy about the outcome, but this was the proper procedure, and pro-lifers are free to try again.
Deep red Kansas reaffirming the rule from Roe wouldn’t have happened with Roberts style incrementalism. He’s more politically savvy than the rest of the majority and probably knew that the first stories after Dobbs would be horror stories caused by the extremist laws in various states. He likely knew “Ending Roe” meant denying abortions to 10 year olds, cancer patients, and doctors waiting for people to be septic enough to do something about a non-viable fetus. The majority either didn’t appreciate this fact or simply didn’t care (I think some might have appreciated this to a smaller extent except for Kavanaugh who strikes me as kind of a big dummy). Compound that with the GOP either 1) lying about the consequences of their own laws 2) or actually doubling down on how those horrible consequences are good actually and you have a public ready to (re)embrace Roe. Letting Mississippi quietly have a 15 week law based on some squishy reasoning about viability/undue burdens under Casey, and this stays out of the public consciousness.
After Dobbs, nothing prevents people in Kansas from trying again with a more incremental approach like the Mississippi 15-week limit that Dobbs affirmed. It’s a normal part of the democratic legislative process that people start out proposing very radical changes, get shot down, and then come back with something more incremental.
You are entirely correct here and it should be noted that Justice Roberts is a very smart person. Conservatives have won many battles through a slow incremental process. The 6 to 3 majority allows them to move faster, but that might not be the best strategy.
If you actually wanted to reduce "elective" abortions over the long term you'd go with Roberts.
"The majority either didn’t appreciate this fact or simply didn’t care..."
I think you're being generous here. There's plenty of evidence from the start of the anti-abortion movement in the 1970s through today that suggest a third position: that the pro-life movement is more about forcing traditional sex/gender roles on women through enforcement of consequences for straying from them than anything else. The consequences are the purpose not an unintended outcome.
The percentages more or less reflect the nationwide breakdown as to the abortion issue. And in a red state!
This really got the Democratic voters out. If this kind of thing happens in November, it will be good news for Democrats.
Not sure of that. This is purely based on abortion, and no other issue was being decided. The inflation issue is not going away, and the Dems are not backing down on their insane plans to make it worse.
OTOH, the media haven't become any less biased, so you can count on most media outlets presenting everything in the manner most favorable to Democrats. That's a tremendous headwind for the Republicans to fight, and they've scarcely lifted a finger to do anything about it.
What else is new? The most I'd expect out of them is McConnell talking about the new bill, which is a drop in the bucket. I don't hear anything about any of their own stupid policies.
They've convinced their voters that the media are agin 'em as a fundamental truism, that ain't nuthin'.
Well the actually tried. By lying about the horror stories. And then the liars were undercut by other republicans telling the media that forcing 10 year old rape victims to give birth is good actually. This is all on them. Not the media.
It will be interesting to see if people in Kansas attempt to amend the state constitution using a more incremental approach. For example, they might try a 15 week limit like the Mississippi law at issue in Dobbs. It would also be interesting to see how the electorate responds to it.
I'm sure voters will love being asked to vote on abortion once or twice ever year.
I understand that there is nothing about 22 weeks in the Kansas constitution. The line is wherever the state Supreme Court draws it. If I were a pro-life Kansas Republican I would try an incremental legislative approach. Pass a 15 week limit and see what the court does with it.
The reality is the majority of people liked the Roe decision and the Kansas vote supports this fact. The Supreme Court handed the right to address abortion to the states, but did not tell states how to regulate the procedure. The smartest things states could do is inact Roe like legislation.
The majority of people liked the Roe decision because they're ignorant on constitutional issues and separation of powers. They didn't like the Roe decision per se, they liked legal abortion.
Roe was decided in 1973 by a 7 to 2 decision. What changed in the Constitution in that time? The 2021 decision was not done because it was a better decision, it was done because there were the votes for the decision.
The phrase "Roe v. Wade" was popular. Giving women a meaningful chance to have an abortion is popular. The constitutional rule of _Roe_ and _Casey_ was not popular.
Has anybody done a study of scenarios instead of slogans or numbers? Mary had a one night stand and got knocked up and decided to keep the baby but after genetic screening at 15 weeks revealed trisomy 21 she wanted to abort. It would be expensive to do a survey like that with a meaningful sample size.
Roe and Casey weren't unpopular with the majority of Americans who aren't lawyers or pro-life activists who paid attention to those laws. Most people don't understand or care how the sausage is made. What they cared about was access to healthcare when they need it. Now we've sent that back to the (almost entirely male) state legislatures to debate over what healthcare women can get in their states. Aside from Justice Thomas' own statements regarding sending sex, contraception, and marriage laws back for debate, some members of congress are also calling for limits on contraception. The new talking points are how contraception is just another form of abortion.
"Roe and Casey weren't unpopular with the majority of Americans who aren't lawyers or pro-life activists who paid attention to those laws. Most people don't understand or care how the sausage is made. What they cared about was access to healthcare when they need it."
Precisely. No regular person who isn't a lawyer, a weirdo, or a crank (i.e. the three core constituencies of this site) cares, or ever will care, about originalism, federalism, the proper allocation of powers under a tripartite system, or any of that bullshit. The only question that matters is whether a particular policy makes their lives better or worse. Roe worked well for most people, and Dobbs made their lives worse (and will continue to make them worse still). That's really all there is to it.
"No regular person who isn't a lawyer, a weirdo, or a crank ...cares, or ever will care, about originalism, federalism, the proper allocation of powers .."
Not true. It's true that few people have the ability or inclination to delve into the details, but actually a lot of regular people are interested in this. (Notwithstanding your "no true scottsman" fallacy that anyone who does is a weirdo).
"The only question that matters is whether a particular policy makes their lives better or worse."
It's true that people are generally self-interested and short-sighted. Few people really cared that much about slaves having subhuman status, just as few people care all that much about unborn babies having subhuman status.
"Roe and Casey weren't unpopular with the majority of Americans who aren't lawyers or pro-life activists who paid attention to those laws."
Huh. How about this: Roe and Casey were unpopular with the majority of Americans who aren't lawyers or pro-choice activists who paid attention to those laws.
If you just exclude the opponents then you have a majority!
Sounds like the parade of horribles people predicted after overruling Roe isn't materializing.
Uhhhhh yes it is? That’s why this happened. Minor rape victims have had to leave their state to obtain care, and they had a short window to do that. People have had to wait until their sepsis was bad enough to get an abortion. And then the right would either 1) lie about the consequences and the people involved in the horrors or 2) say these horrible things are actually good.
The reason the vote is overwhelming is because the parade of horribles was exposed to be real extremely quickly.
Example:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/07/26/1111280165/because-of-texas-abortion-law-her-wanted-pregnancy-became-a-medical-nightmare
It isn't at all a hypothetical that bans on abortion result in the death of women. Will it take a highly publicized case like that of Savita Halappanavar's needless death here in the U.S. to finally show "pro-life" to be the lie that it is?
Hey - who invited that phrase, and how did that go?
It might sound that way if you take a single data point that supports your position, and ignore the numerous States where your conclusion is false.
I think, politically, timing was bad in Kansas for the pro-life side. I suspect we will see regular amendment attempts with the total getting closer to passing. Also, you might see attempts to limit the abortion right via amendment (eg, 12 or 15 weeks). I would be surprised if a 12 or 15 week limit did not pass in Kanses.
I....I was told there would be handmaiden's tale dystopia.... *sad face*
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/07/26/1111280165/because-of-texas-abortion-law-her-wanted-pregnancy-became-a-medical-nightmare
The dystopia became apparent right away. That’s why this vote was so overwhelming.
I disagree that this is why the vote was so overwhelming. People, especially women, already understood the issue. They didn't need to hear about any new horror stories to confirm it. We had to reach back to the 1400s to overturn Roe but women only had to reach back to living memory to pre-Roe to understand what a post-Roe country would look like.
No, probably less than 0.5% of Kansans ever saw your contrived NPR claptrap story, whatever it is.
Contrived claptrap? Read the story. And after that you don’t think that’s a dystopia for that woman, then you’re a bad person and you need to reflect on what makes you so and do better.
Let's see.
"One option was to end the pregnancy; that's called "a termination for medical reasons." The other option is called expectant management, in which Elizabeth would stay in the hospital and try to stay pregnant until 24 weeks, which is considered the beginning of "viability" outside the womb."
A few facts.
1. What NPR is calling a termination consists of administering pitocin to induce labor. Induced labor with pitocin is actually extremely common. Of course doing it early for medical reasons is less common. But is inducing labor with pitocin an "abortion"? If you are unfamiliar with what an abortion is, do some research and learn about the procedures that are used. Be sure to spend some time listening to sources that disagree with you.
Induced labor is, of course, an entirely different procedure than the gruesome procedures that are actually abortions, as that term is typically conceived. And it is done for a different purpose.
2. Premature rupture of membranes (PROM) occurs in about 8 to 10 percent of all pregnancies. Preterm premature rupture of membranes (PPROM) (before 37 weeks) accounts for one fourth to one third of all preterm births. Individual cases very widely of course, but it is not a death sentence for the baby by any means. For the mother, the greatest risk is development of an infection. Fortunately, this risk can be monitored and an infection detected before it becomes serious.
Treatment may include:
"Hospitalization
Expectant management (in very few cases of PPROM, the membranes may seal over and the fluid may stop leaking without treatment
Monitoring for signs of infection, such as fever, pain, increased fetal heart rate, and/or laboratory tests.
Giving the mother medications called corticosteroids that may help mature the lungs of the fetus
Antibiotics (to prevent or treat infections)
Tocolytics. Medications used to stop preterm labor.
Women with PPROM usually deliver at 34 weeks if stable. If there are signs of abruption, chorioamnionitis, or fetal compromise, then early delivery would be necessary.)"
Note that here, in a neutral medical publication rather than a political propaganda rag, it is called "early delivery" rather than "abortion" or "termination." This is very important to note.
Unfortunately in some cases, zealous or indifferent medical personnel give bad advice and claim there is no chance of survival, when there is. There are many such cases. Doctors called mom ‘inhumane’ for refusing to abort her twins. Now they’re thriving.
3. From the NPR article: "The law, which still remains in effect, does contain one exception – for a "medical emergency." But there is no definition for that term in the statute."
Ahh. It appears we have gone from "fascist Republicans outlawed needed medical care" to "weaselly lawyers/admins raise questions about the interpretation of a statute" in a hurry.
"But where do we draw the line?" they whined nasally like a first year law student.
Well, let's ask LawTalkingGuy for his opinion. Was this a medical emergency -- or not?
“ Well, let's ask LawTalkingGuy for his opinion. Was this a medical emergency -- or not?”
YES YOU ASSHOLE.
So You’re just a bad person displaying a stunning lack of empathy trying to justify horrible treatment of a woman that is the direct result of horrible laws you support. That’s it. It needs no further explanation. Deal with it and become a better person.
But to add: we have no clue when that line is and what prosecutors will do. Again, you are a bad person, and if you confronted this woman with this contorted explanation for why what happened to her somehow wasn’t a result of Texas law, a group of people observing that confrontation would uniformly agree about your lack of morals and humanity.
Do. Better. Get help. Jesus Christ almighty.
"YES YOU ASSHOLE."
Great. So in summary, this patient did not need an abortion, and they did not get an abortion. They had an early delivery.
And just in case there was any doubt, the law included an appropriate exemption that was perfectly applicable to this case.
“ And just in case there was any doubt, the law included an appropriate exemption that was perfectly applicable to this case.”
And because of that exemption lawyers and ethical committees of unknown doctors were debating the matter while this woman was putting her putrid discharge in a ziplock. That kind of physical and emotional torture is a direct result of the Texas Law. Own it and deal with it you utter creep.
"And because of that exemption lawyers and ethical committees of unknown doctors were debating the matter while this woman was putting her putrid discharge in a ziplock."
They decided to debate the matter, that's on them. They could have just called LawTalkingGuy and asked whether this was a medical emergency, to which he would have responded "YES YOU ASSHOLE!"
"That kind of physical and emotional torture is a direct result of the Texas Law. Own it and deal with it you utter creep."
Killing a perfectly healthy unborn baby in a perfectly healthy pregnancy (and doing it millions of times over and over) is a direct result of abortion on demand for convenience or any or no reason. Is that what you support?
"...abortion on demand for convenience or any or no reason."
I'll take "Strawmen and Conspiracy Theories" for 500, Alex!
Shawn, Are you denying that the vast majority of abortions have nothing to do with medical emergencies or anything like that?
Terrible outliers are not something humans blithely dismiss as 'well, it's a very small number.'
That's not how policy is done, or rights, or conversation, or fucking anything among human beings.
You can make a utilitarian argument. See how that flies. But you don't get to just move on without acknowledgement. This is indeed a pretty big humanity fail.
Sarc, Not sure how you can say that I blithely dismiss the outlier, when we are having a lengthy discussion focusing on exactly that. Since LTG calls me a horrible human being for merely pointing out that this was not an abortion, and that the TX law nonetheless provides an exemption for medical emergencies, I would like to know what he thinks of the 99.9-100% of abortions that have nothing at all to do with this sort of thing.
Christ you’re trying to be a pedantic dork about someone’s life. Don’t you see how messed up that is? Truly a stunning lack of human emotion.
If no one reads the story about the dystopia, does it really exist?
Yes, actually, it does.
These fucking dork-ass losers think they can UM ACKSHUALLY their way out of the horrible consequences of the laws they want when confronted with them. But terminal Federalist Society Brain doesn’t actually work on people with normal human emotions.
You ignored the primary point of my comment to go on a tangent. I'd say probably less than 0.5% of Kansans saw your nonsense NPR story. What do you think?
Still calling it nonsense? You are truly a vile person. Do people know you’re this horrible in real life or do you do better at disguising your utter contempt for human beings in social situations?
And it’s not this story specifically. It’s all of them reported and unreported. That drives this.
Again. You are a vile vile creep.
Right right, anyone who disagrees with me is a horrible, vile creep.
You should get out more and try to enjoy some sunshine, nature, and social activities. Consume less media slop and think less about politics. This will improve your anger problem.
“ Right right, anyone who disagrees with me is a horrible, vile creep.”
No. Only people who can so casually dismiss the story of a woman experiencing the worst moment of her life due to Texas law.
“You should get out more and try to enjoy some sunshine, nature, and social activities. Consume less media slop and think less about politics. This will improve your anger problem.“
I do. That’s how I know how truly vile you are. Normal humans don’t react to stories like this like you do. Actual humans think a reaction like yours to a story like this is disgusting. You obviously disguise your actual views in social situations unless you only hang out with federalist society losers. (Which you probably do). So maybe you should get out more. Talk to women, particularly ones who have been pregnant, and your views will probably change.
You are resorting to messy emotional hysterics and personal attacks after being unable to come up with any logical response to the topics at hand. Very common for far left online types. And you seem to have an anger problem which probably shows up badly after a few drinks in social situations.
Here, I'm analyzing this story from a legal and technical perspective, and you offered it as support for some kind of political, policy and legal argument. This is different from social situations where emotions rule over everything and empathy is key, finding common ground is more important than hashing out differences, relationships come first and 95% of people aren't remotely equipped or interested in discussing finer details. I never disguise my views, but I find it easy to get along with just about anyone and unlike you, I can understand where people are coming from and not think they are bad people (at least, not more so than anyone else) just because they don't agree with me.
Yes. I am doing that because your cold emotionless “logic” is horrifying and sociopathic. By doing that you signal to all that you’re a monster. And I think you’re conceding the point frankly. Enjoy being an immoral creep who think feelings and emotions don’t matter. I’m sure you won’t regret it when everyone who interacts with you distances themselves when they find out what you’re actually like.
And you’re damn right I’m angry. If a story like this doesn’t make you angry then the problem is you not the angry person. Trying to cause moral outrage an “anger problem” is just another way for you to cast doubt on the existence of actual human values that you seem to abhor. So again, good luck with your lonely empty life where the only people who put up with you are like minded freaks.
"I am doing that because your cold emotionless “logic” is horrifying and sociopathic."
No, it is because you are wrong and don't have any response that is relevant, pertinent, or logical. If you did, you would go with that. Instead, you abandon your argument and engage in personal attacks.
You ignored my question above. Do you support killing millions of perfectly healthy unborn babies in perfectly healthy pregnancies?
I find whenever people declare themselves the most logical/reasonable one in the room, what they mean is calm; they are usually the ones most operating from emotion, just the deepest in denial about it.
A roughly 60/40 split pretty much runs the lines of national polling on the right for women to get an abortion. If we had a fully functioning democracy, this outcome would not surprise anyone.
The real eye-opener here is that on an issue that goes straight to the voters and is less impacted by gerrymandering and other anti-democratic shenanigans, people vote in favor of a women's right to choose. But where these votes are taken by representatives in state legislatures, the votes are often not in alignment with the majority of constituents. This is also why the last Republican presidential nominee to win the popular vote in his first term was George HW Bush in 1989.
This isn't a story validating the Dobbs decision or showing any sort of surge in pro-women voters. This is just another datapoint in a long list of datapoints charting the decline of American democracy into a growing, minority-led, single-party system in much of the country.
It's only a 60/40 split if you avoid getting into the weeds. Most of those 60 are fine with all manner of restrictions if you ask them about them.
That's why the pro-choice movement always pretends that every law they oppose is a complete ban without any exceptions. It's the only way they get a majority.
I strongly suspect there is a broad consensus for largely unfettered abortion rights in the first trimester.
Brett, the problem for Republicans is that the vast majority of candidates and office holders have extreme views that contradict what that solid majority is okay with. Whether they genuinely believe that all elective abortions should be banned or just need to say that they do in order to win primaries, doesn’t matter. The solid pro-life base will impose a litmus test and that makes compromise impossible.
Obviously, there is the same problem on the Democratic Party side, but to a much smaller extent. The pro-choice base only gets as revved up as the pro-life side when full or nearly total abortion bans are actually happening. We can see that clearly in the three decades since Casey. 30 years of TRAP laws never got them as active as the religious right was over abortion, but actually overturning Roe and seeing red states going all out has.
Most people are fine with all manner of restrictions, could you back that up with some evidence? What restriction are people happy with and how do you know that? I think your pulling from thin air again.
Most Americans have nuanced views on abortion, Pew Center report shows
"Mohamed and Hartig found that even the most resolved respondents on both sides expressed support for some exceptions and restrictions. Although a quarter of Americans said abortion should be legal in all cases, a fourth of those went on to say that there should be some exceptions. Similarly, 1 in 10 said abortion should be illegal in all cases, but in later questions, 20 percent of those said there may be some instances when abortion should be legal.
Nearly half of the respondents who said the procedure should be illegal in all or most cases also said it should be legal if the pregnancy threatens the health or life of the mother, and more than a third said abortion should be legal in cases of rape. Four in 10 abortion opponents say the statement “the decision about whether to have an abortion should belong solely to the pregnant woman” describes their own view at least “somewhat” well.
Among those who support legal abortion, the researchers found a large number who also favor some restrictions. Fifty-six percent of people who support abortion said doctors should be required to notify a parent or guardian before performing an abortion on a minor. More than half of abortion rights supporters believe that when an abortion occurs matters, and, in some cases, the procedure should be illegal.
Overall, support for legal abortion drops the further along a person is in their pregnancy. Although Roe made abortions legal nationwide up to 24 weeks — roughly the time when a healthy fetus could survive outside the womb — far fewer Americans support abortions when a pregnant person is that far along. While 44 percent of all U.S. adults say abortion should be legal at six weeks, 22 percent believe it should be legal at 24 weeks."
Here's the actual Pew study.
The '60/40 split' isn't between outright legal and outright illegal. The '60' are people who think it should be legal in "all or most" cases, but most of those are NOT in the "all" camp, they're in the "most" camp, with "most" being interpreted rather loosely. Support drops off as the pregnancy continues, and even by 6 weeks only 44% of respondents were in the legal, period, camp, with 19% in the "it depends" camp.
"At 24 weeks of pregnancy – when a healthy fetus may survive outside of the womb with medical attention – 43% of Americans overall say abortion should be illegal, while 22% say it should be legal and 18% say it depends. "
Funny that Afro-Amurians get 1/3 of the Abortions in KS, where they make up less than 10% of the Population, almost like there's some unseen hand encouraging them to kill their next generation, not that I'm complaining, I'm "Pro Death, I mean "Choice"
Frank
That's mostly because blacks are genetically improvident, so they don't think of the consequences of anything they do.
"would reserve to the people of Kansas, through their elected state legislators, the right to pass laws to regulate abortion, including, but not limited to, in circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or when necessary to save the life of the mother"
OK, do I understand that this would have allowed abortion bans in cases of rape, incest, or when needed to save the mother's life?
The part about the mother's life is shocking because it seems to confirm the "prochoice" talking points that the prolifers would actually have women get killed (which, I understand, is not really medically necessary).
As to rape and incest, there's still a broad segment of "moderate" opinion which wants to punish the rapist by aborting the fetus. Or which sees abortion as a reward for "good girls" whose pregnancy wasn't their fault. These "moderates" would do what prolifers in general are accused of doing - ban abortion as punishment for promiscuous behavior.
I don't think you can get together a majority to ban rape/incest abortions. Nor would they proclaim a willingness to sacrifice the mother's life.
punish the rapist by aborting the fetus
WTF are you talking about?
Or which sees abortion as a reward for "good girls" whose pregnancy wasn't their fault.
Basically. Or, to put that the other way around, being forced to carry a baby to term is considered an appropriate punishment for being a sl*t.
So you see the difficulty? They'll get denounced for having a rape/incest exception, or for not having one. Having one reflects Puritanism and sex-negativity, while not having one reflects generic evil-doing.
Best to allow abortion in all trimesters.
I don't think you can get together a majority to ban rape/incest abortions. Nor would they proclaim a willingness to sacrifice the mother's life.
Good thing America is a healthy democracy then. O, wait...
"I don't think you can get together a majority to ban rape/incest abortions. Nor would they proclaim a willingness to sacrifice the mother's life."
And yet, we have states that have already done this. So by "majority," I assume you must mean citizens in general rather than their state and national representatives. Because the former is roughly 60/40 in favor of the right to choose (within limits) and the latter is not. And the difference between those two groups is a serious problem for our democracy.
Chicken Little just learned that the sky is not, in fact, falling.
Well, as long as she's got a good supply of ziplock bags for storing evidence that she has a life-threatening problem with her fetus. Or she's got a good mother to take her to a nearby state. For those women and the many other who are finding themselves in similar circumstances, the sky has fallen.
It seems the U. S., as a "deficient democracy," should ask for some pointers from "working democracies" like Greece.
Could you explain what you think is wrong with democracy in Greece?
What about the matter of the current Kansas constitution being trod on? The document more or less just says that rights exist, and from that they extract a right to abortion? Why even have a legislature if the court is just going to impose its preferences?
Will this have any more impact than when the Equal Rights Amendment wasn’t ratified. Opponents came out with a parade of horribles that they said would happen if the proposed amendment was ratified. They said for example that ratification would lead to the courts mandating gay marriage, to ending separate-sex education, to bathroom integration.
The amendment didn’t pass. But the courts managed to interpret the Equal Protection Clause as requiring nearly everything in the parade of horribles, reversing lots of precedents to do so.
So there is considerable precedent with voting down a proposed amendment not mattering squat. I don’t think it should be that way. But it seems to be so.
And now it is time to hit the politicians where it hurts. All any reporter has to do now is ask any politician: "Do you support a woman's right to choose?"
An interview isn't a web form with a radio button, yes or no. Successful politicians know to answer the question they want to answer, not the question that was asked. "I support protecting unborn children."