The Volokh Conspiracy
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Keeping Out Hitler: Can Immigration Restrictions be Justified by the Need to Exclude Individuals who Might Cause Extraordinary Harm?
Critics of immigration restrictions often cite immigrants who make extraordinary contributions to the society. But what about the opposite case of immigrants who cause massive harm (like Hitler)? The argument deserves to be taken seriously. But it's ultimately much weaker than it seems.

Opponents of immigration restrictions - myself included - often cite the examples of immigrants who make extraordinary contributions to society. For example, immigrants contribute disproportionately to major entrepreneurial and scientific innovations, such as the development of the first two successful Covid vaccines approved by the FDA. The immigrants in question probably would not have been able to make these contributions if they were confined to their countries of origin. Even if only a tiny fraction of immigrants achieve such feats, migration restrictions cumulatively forestall a substantial number of such accomplishments, thereby causing great harm that goes beyond the losses incurred by keeping out immigrants who "only" make ordinary economic and social contributions.
But what of the opposite scenario: individual immigrants who cause extraordinary harm. By "extraordinary harm," I don't mean immigrants who do things like commit ordinary crime or become a burden on the welfare system. I mean people who have a large negative impact on society as a whole, comparable in scale to the positive impact of a major entrepreneur or scientific innovator. If such people exist and immigration restrictions are the only effective way to keep them from perpetrating their nefarious deeds, then that could potentially be a serious rationale for restrictionism. After all, one massively harmful migrant could potentially outweigh the benefits created by a large number who make "normal" contributions to society. Ideally, we would just keep out the enormously harmful individuals, while letting "normal" migrants through. But it may be impossible to identify the former with precision, so the only way to keep them out might be to exclude large numbers of other people, as well.
The problem of the massively harmful individual immigrant is distinct from concerns that large masses of migrants might collectively cause great harm, such as increasing crime, overburdening the welfare system, spreading bad cultural values, voting for terrible political leaders, weakening liberal democratic institutions, or exacerbating environmental degradation. These issues have already been covered in detail by both defenders and critics of migration restrictions. I myself go into them at some length in various writings, including Chapter 6 of my book Free to Move.
By contrast, I have yet to see any systematic analysis of the issue of the extraordinarily harmful individual immigrants. But the concern is an intuitively obvious one, and I see it come up fairly regularly when I give presentations on immigration-related issues. Both laypeople and experts occasionally raise it. At the very least, it deserves some serious consideration.
Are there actual examples of individual immigrants who cause great society-wide harm? There is at least one. And oh what an example it is: Adolf Hitler! In 1913, Hitler immigrated to Germany from Austria; he didn't become a German citizen until 1932. There is a plausible argument that Hitler's move to Germany was an essential prerequisite for the Nazis' rise to power, which in turn led to World War II and the Holocaust. Had the then-tiny Nazi Party that Hitler joined in 1919 remained under the uninspired leadership of its founder, Anton Drexler, it's unlikely it would ever have amounted to much of anything.
Had Hitler been forced to remain in Austria, he would never have become the leader of the Nazis, much less dictator over all of Germany. Even if he had gone on to become a fascist dictator of Austria, the resulting harm would have been far smaller, if only because Austria was a much less powerful nation.
More generally, I can see two major ways in which an individual immigrant could cause extraordinary harm. One is the Hitler Scenario: leading a political movement that perpetrates great evil when and if it comes to power. The second is developing an enormously harmful scientific or technological innovation. If immigrants disproportionately contribute to beneficial innovations, perhaps they might also be disproportionately responsible for harmful ones. For example, an immigrant could develop an especially heinous torture device, new surveillance tech that can be used to facilitate repression, or an innovation that greatly damages the environment. Call this the Mad Scientist Scenario (though scientists who make harmful innovations usually are not actually insane!).
Both scenarios have some intuitive plausibility as rationales for immigration restrictions. If barring Austrian migration to Germany was the only way to forestall the rise of Hitler and the Nazis, even I have to admit that's a price worth paying!
But before endorsing these theories, it's worth applying the three-part test I developed for assessing other consequentialist rationales for migration restrictions, in Free to Move:
- Consider how big the problem is. If the answer is that it's nonexistent or greatly overblown, restrictions aren't justified.
- If the problem is real, is there a "keyhole solution" that can address it without actually barring migrants?
- If the problem is real, and there is no effective keyhole solution, can we address the issue by tapping some of the vast wealth created by migration?
Assessed in this way, both the Hitler and Mad Scientist scenarios start to look less impressive.
Under the first step, how you assess the Mad Scientist scenario largely depends on your views about technological innovation more generally. If - like me - you think it's generally beneficial, despite the occasional harmful invention, then you will be inclined to look favorably on the large increase in innovation caused by migration. Harmful innovations are the price we pay for beneficial ones. And there is, of course, no reason to believe that immigrant innovators are disproportionately likely to make harmful innovations relative to beneficial ones (though they make more of both, relative to natives).
If, on the other hand, you are a techno-pessimist, then you are likely to take a different view. But, in that event, you should also advocate for severe restrictions on innovation by native-born citizens, as well. You may even want to deport some of the more talented native-born scientists and inventors to places where they are less likely to succeed!
The Hitler Scenario strikes me as more significant. The only way to dismiss it outright is if you think political history is ultimately determined by structural factors, and individual leaders play little role. On this view, if Hitler had stayed in Austria, the Nazis (or some other similar right-wing nationalist party) would have come to power in Germany anyway, and pursued largely the same policies as Hitler did. While structural factors certainly matter, I think individual leaders also can make a big difference, at least sometimes.
Still, several factors suggest the risk here is small. Indeed, it's hard to think of any case where an immigrant has successfully led an illiberal authoritarian movement to power, other than Hitler (though of course that one case was hugely important). If the Hitler Scenario were a significant systematic risk, we should expect to see more cases of its coming to pass, or at least more near-misses.
One factor that makes the scenario unlikely is that immigrants generally participate in politics less than native-born citizens and have fewer of the kinds of connections needed to rise to power within the political system (see Chapter 6 of Free to Move for citations to relevant data). Another is that illiberal political movements often have ethno-nationalist ideologies that privilege the majority ethnic or cultural group as the "true" owners and rulers of the land. For obvious, reasons, an immigrant is unlikely to be a plausible leader of such a movement.
Here, Hitler is actually the exception that reinforces the rule. As a German-speaking Austrian, Hitler could present himself as a member of essentially the same ethnic, linguistic, and racial group as native-born German nationalists. But that's a relatively rare situation.
If you worry that immigrants might lead a successful fascist movement, the most plausible candidates are those who share a common ethnicity race, language or culture with the natives. For the United States, that probably means a special focus on white immigrants from anglophone Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Ironically, of course, immigration restrictionists usually most want to keep out immigrants from more divergent backgrounds and cultures.
Could an immigrant instead lead a left-wing socialist authoritarian movement? Such groups are often more cosmopolitan in orientation than nationalists, and thereby more open to following immigrant leaders. This possibility can't be ruled out. But I cannot find a single case where an immigrant actually played a decisive role in bringing such a movement to power. The closest example is Che Guevara's role in Castro's communist regime in Cuba (Che moved to Cuba from his native Argentina).
Che Guevara did indeed become a high-ranking regime functionary under Castro, and was responsible for many horrific atrocities. But it is highly likely that the Cuban communists would have seized power even without Che's assistance, and would have pursued essentially the same policies after coming to power, even if Che had never set foot in Cuba. The Batista government would have done well to keep Che out. But it's hard to argue that he had the same kind of massive impact on Cuba as Hitler had in Germany. And, as with Hitler in Germany, Che's rise to power in communist Cuba was likely assisted by the fact that he came from a nation that spoke the same language and had a relatively similar culture.
Finally, it's worth noting that the risk that an immigrant might lead a triumphant harmful political movement must be balanced against the potential benefit of one of them playing a decisive role in leading a movement that does great good. The latter is highly unlikely, for much the same reasons as the former is. But if we are going to consider one scenario, the other deserves consideration, and should be weighed against it. One of the immigrants we keep out in hopes of barring the next Hitler, could actually have been the next Martin Luther King.
In sum, the risk of a Hitler Scenario is very low, but not zero. But even that relatively low risk can be mitigated by keyhole solutions. Most obviously, societies can adopt a variety of constitutional and other safeguards that block illiberal authoritarian movements from coming to power in the first place. Given the risks posed by native-born authoritarians, such safeguards are necessary even if the society has little or no immigration.
And relying on these tools allows a nation to protect against authoritarianism without losing the immense economic and other benefits of free migration. We might not be able to preemptively keep out would-be Hitlers and Che Guevaras. But we can do much to ensure they never come to power.
Relevant safeguards include classic strategies like constitutional limits on government power, political decentralization, strong judicial review, and others. In extreme cases, governments might even bar illiberal, anti-democratic parties from contesting elections, as West Germany did with both the Nazis and communists for many years after World War II. This kind of approach carries risks of its own (incumbent political leaders can abuse it to suppress other opposition, as well). But the same is true of migration restrictions, which pose a grave threat to a variety of liberal values, including the liberty of natives.
If you worry about the Mad Scientist Scenario, it too might have possible keyhole solutions. Rather than trying to bar immigrants who might become scientists or entrepreneurs, the government could try to restrict especially dangerous lines of research. Obviously, this depends on the government's ability to predict which types of research pose a threat. But using immigration restrictions to suppress harmful innovation also requires the government to have substantial predictive abilities (figuring out which potential migrants - or groups of migrants - are likely to pose a threat), unless you want to go so far as just barring migration entirely.
In addition to keyhole solutions, the vast new wealth created by free migration can also help mitigate the danger posed by would-be immigrant authoritarians. Much social science research finds that high-income countries are more likely to become democratic - and stay that way. In that respect, the new wealth created by migration can strengthen democratic institutions even if it is not deliberately used for that purpose. And it can help protect against both native-born and immigrant authoritarians.
Situations where the Hitler and Mad Scientist scenarios can justify large-scale immigration restrictions are theoretically possible. But, in practice, it seems like they are extraordinarily rare, if they exist at all.
The Hitler and Mad Scientist scenarios are not the only possible ways an individual immigrant can cause great societal harm. They are just the most obvious. We can certainly imagine others. The best-known, perhaps, is the risk that an individual immigrant might organize a massive terrorist attack, like 9/11. This scenario, however, is subject to most of the same counterarguments as claims that groups of immigrants might increase terrorism (I discussed the issue here). In addition, even a large terrorist attack is far less likely to decisively damage societal institutions than the rise to power of authoritarians or a harmful innovation with large society-wide effects. In all of modern history so far, there has never been a terrorist attack by an immigrant that did large-scale systemic damage to liberal democratic institutions (though there certainly have been some that caused substantial loss of life, as is also true of those perpetrated by natives). Authoritarian terrorist movements led by natives have often had greater impact, perhaps for the same reasons that other effective political movements are almost always led by natives.
There is an inexhaustible list of other scenarios we can come up with where extraordinary individuals cause great harm. But each of them should be put through the same three-part analysis before it can be used to justify immigration restrictions. And if you can't think of even one real-world example where this kind of disaster actually happened - out of hundreds of millions of immigrants over the last two centuries - that's a pretty strong sign it's highly unlikely to be a real issue. By contrast, there are hundreds, probably even thousands, of examples where individual immigrants made decisive contributions to some massively beneficial innovation.
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This discussion has been pro-Godwinned for your convenience.
Heh
Hitler was protected, privileged, and empowered by the scumbag lawyer profession. He should have been shot in the head instead of released from prison.
What about the spawns of these toxic immigrants, like Obama and Trump?
For once, victim of violent, armed diverses not prosecuted. But, this took place in Florida.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/florida-sheriff-releases-video-of-armed-home-intruders-fleeing-when-intended-victim-fires-back-with-rifle/ar-AAZA0u9?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=63aa7ac12b364d609ce633ab0065b33a
Hey, Ilya. A bunch of Arabs immigrated, and took jet pilot lessons. They said, they need not learn landing. A female FBI agent reported them. Instead of saying, go talk to them, the scumbag lawyer supervisor did not want to seem racist and closed the matter. That scumbag FBI lawyer should have been executed September 12, 2001. Those immigrants killed 3000 Americans, and caused $7 trillion in damage to our nation. That does not count the costs of the subsequent wars, another $4 trillion, and 5000 lives. How many Mexican landscapers would we have to allow in to repay that damage? This is a 3rd grade word math problem. You can do it.
Hey, Ilya, scumbag lawyer. The home address. We are sending 100,000 Indian law profs to live on your street. They would love to work for $25000. Support that and you are not dismissed anymore.
These immigrants drank oir liquor and went to our strip clubs before their crime.
The lawyer pussified males on those American planes fid not kick their ass. They were taught to be afraid of prosecution for attacking the lawyer client, the criminal. Now you are defending the criminals. Do you why? It's because you are a scumbag lawyer, 1000 times more toxic than a member of organized crime.
Victims who kill violent criminals should be paid $10000 a scalp. These lawyer clients are committing 200 felonies a year times 50 years. Killing them young would prevent 10000 felonies. That would be $1 per felony prevented. It does not measure the collateral economic benefits, like health costs of violent crime, effect on local and national economy, and legal system costs.
Hey, Ilya. Che was so toxic, Castro sent him abroad and dimed the CIA on his location. Great immigration success story.
How nice!
Without reading it, I can guess the content based on the Somin pattern:
Somin promises economic growth and then casually dismisses any concerns anyone might have. Your concerns will always be less important than numbers on a spreadsheet of economic projections.
And anyway, we can address your concerns by proposing "keyhole solutions" that, if they were enacted, vaguely sound like something that might help. Of course they will never get enacted, and Somin doesn’t care enough about your concerns to analyze the political incentives that assure they never get enacted. Because "keyhole solutions" are 100% rhetorical.
Now to read it and see if the above description of the pattern turned out correct this time.
Yeah.
It reminds me of those people who were proud proponents of MMT (Modern Monetary Theory) a while ago and said there was no possible harm to the US printing as much money as it wanted.
Those people have disappeared into the woodwork lately.
India has a population of 1.5 billion people. Probably only half would want to come to the US, and only one-third of those could afford the passage here. So, 250 million Indians coming, restricted in the rate of arrival only by the limitations of transport. Add China, Latin America, Africa, and the middle East into the mix - you can see them crossing into Texas on the news every day - and unrestricted immigration starts to seem a potential problem.
Once you recognize that there seems to be a need for some control, the only issues are what sort and how much - issues we are looking at right now.
More imperialism! Convert other countries to be like the West, with relatively low corruption rates (police only sometimes pull you over and take your money and let you go, not all the time.)
Up the penalties there for corruption. DMV guy demands a side payment of $200 or wait 5 years for your license? One year in jail for every dollar demanded.
Ilya's logic would not restrict immigration to people only to people who can afford the airfare. Why should those lucky enough to be born somewhere whence they can walk to the US be favored? Fairness dictates that we pay passage for anyone anywhere who wants to immigrate to the US.
The Hitler counterfactuals are interesting. Note the following:
1. There must have been plenty of front-line German soldiers who experienced horrors and were affected by it.
2. Anti-Semitism was on the rise in Germany even before the war, as noted by Herman Hesse in one of his post-war essays (in which essay he also commented on what he saw as a far graver anti-Semitism on the rise), and grew further during - as shown by the Judenzahlung
3. The Dolchstosslegende ("stab-in-the-back myth") found fertile soil in German right-wing circles before Hitler.
It is plausible that the ecological niche that Hitler occupied could only accommodate one leader - but that if Hitler had not immigrated, or had died in WWI, there would have been plenty of other candidates who could have filled that spot. And the post=war conditions that allowed a Hitler - WWI reparations, the Great Inflation, the collapse of Weimar - did not preclude anyone else. It's not as though Germany was an otherwise healthy country experiencing a moment of madness.
I have little doubt that if not Hitler, someone else - perhaps more lethally competent. Whether this other person would have launched the Holocaust isn't clear, but enough people assisted for me to think that killing large numbers of my tribe would not have been limited to Germany only under Hitler.
I suspect Professor Somin’s life must sometimes be like a person who earnestly argues modesty fine points - do pianos need to have cloth leg covers to avoid seeing their bare legs, things like that - in the middle of a nudist colony.
RE: "(though scientists who make harmful innovations usually are not actually insane!)."
Fritz Haber was probably an exception. Perhaps the most benevolent chemist in history (see Nobel Prize for chemistry 1918), also unquestionably one of the most evil chemists in history (the father of Germany's poison-gas industry, personally supervised the use of poison gas in battle), and one of the most ridiculous, bat-shit loopy chemists in history (spent a great deal of time and resources trying to figure a cost-efficient way to extract gold from sea-water. A cubic mile of sea-water contains enough gold to make a bar the size of a small shoe. Good luck, mein Herr.)
Fritz.
Isaac Newton was big into alchemy. It's nice to Monday Morning quarterback their silliness...after their minds get done reshaping reality for you.
Somin demolishes another strawman. On this post he cites no one making the argument he so deftly takes apart.
May a country justly deny entry to an immigrant with rape or murder convictions? I suspect Somin would say "no", while pointing out that many "natives" have rape and murder convictions.
His theories may sound great on paper from the perspective of the ivory tower, but on the ground, when put into practice, they are disastrous. If you believe orderly, controlled immigration is preferable to an uncontrolled free-for-all, you must be an "ethno-nationalist" whose real motive is bigotry. The incessant appeal to white guilt is tiresome and, increasingly, unconvincing and less effective.
The threat is neither Hitler nor a mad scientist.
Rather, it's a common criminal with anger management issues who will end up pounding death and mayhem upon us.
Or a determined pedophile.
Couldn't possibly be peace loving brothers like Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and Tamerlan Tsarnaev. Boston Strong!
I don’t understand what the problem is.
We already have laws in place allowing officials to deny entry to demonstrable undesirables. There’s a body of case law on what kind of evidence is needed. That’s all that can be done.
Agree that this is a solution looking for a problem.
Also whatever immigration standards we (or any country) puts in place is always going to be a crap shoot.
Suppose a 1913 Hitler wanted to immigrate to the US today.
He would be 24 years old.
He didn't write Mein Kampf until eight years later so probably his political t̶h̶e̶o̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ nightmares weren't fully developed as a 24 year old.
Barring any other disqualifying factors, we would probably allow him to immigrate.
And like the immigration crap shoot, being born a US citizen is also a crap shoot whether the person will turn into an insane Neo Nazi.
Imagine at 24 Hitler, penniless, becoming a boarder to a Jewish family on the Lower East Side. Becoming an apprentice to the father, a tailor. “Uncle Adolf” to the kids (he did seem to enjoy being around children) . . .
Speaking of Lower East Side, did you know that Katz's Deli delivers nation-wide?!?
I did this last year for my Bday and am doing it again this year.
The food (that needs it) comes frozen and then you just boil the packets in water for a few minutes.
I got the pastrami/corned beef/brisket package (comes with bread, mustard, pickles).
Added some matzoh ball soup, knishes, and babka.
(Homer Simpson drool again.....)
https://katzsdelicatessen.com/shipping.html
You should eat. You're looking thin.
Epstein’s in White Plains, NY. I ordered a Kosher spread for my Jewish associates for their shivas (is that the word). Not cheap but awesomely good and one needs about two weeks of ellipticals in the gym to work it off.
The point is to limit the power to exclude potential immigrants to truly cosmic levels of nastiness, and then note that you can't actually identify such people in advance. Thus neatly concentrating all immigration authority in one small, easily disposed of package.
This series of posts has me convinced his book largely consists of a catalog of strawmen. I suppose there's some utility in having all the strawman arguments against open border collected in one place. But it's not enough utility to bother buying the book.
Lots of people here already, and the marginal benefit of one more random immigrant is too small to consider. Immigrants of value can be screened at the 99th or 99.9th percentile for potential value as marked by their actual achievements thus far (wealth, capitol, patents, and similar high achievement).
But simply taking tired poor huddled masses is not likely to produce anything of value as compared to the tired poor huddled masses already here. Now, if we could arrange an exchange program. Castro emptied his prisons onto our shores, we empty our prisons onto Cuba's shores, including a no-take-back provision.
Could we please just say honestly why getting tough on illegal immigrants is so popular, in spite of all the objective evidence that they improve our lives more than they blight our lives?
The reason is, we need an underclass, and everyone knows we do. We need someone who will work for less than minimum wage, without legally-mandated benefits and safety regulations and all the rest of it. Same as the reason we exported so much of our manufacturing and mining and drilling for oil, and all of it: we're all a bunch of NIMBYs, but someone has to do it.
(Why does anti-immigrant political activism among Americans correlate so strongly with a taste for exploitation-porn -- porn in which a vulnerable, physically attractive character gets extorted, or forced, or tricked, into having sex with a character who the viewer identifies with?)
If that last paragraph is any guide to what you consider to be objective evidence...
Why is getting tough with illegal immigrants so popular?
1. We have laws, they're a group defined by breaking them. I mean, literally, that's their defining characteristic! Criminals aren't typically a popular group.
2. The notion that a group self-selected by their willingness to break our laws is, on the whole, law abiding, is risible.
3. Illegal immigration is the primary reason we have a problem with identity theft in the US. Both because they widely need fake ID, and because our defenses against identity theft have been systematically compromised to protect them. Look at what SS does when they determine somebody else is working using your SS number, for instance. They don't shut them down! Why not?
It would inconvenience illegal immigrants!
4. Illegal immigrants drive down wages for the poorest among us, exacerbating income inequality and unemployment.
5. Illegal immigrants distort our politics in much the same way as slaves did: Although they can't vote, they still count for apportionment, swelling the voting power of the areas that tolerate their presence. (Perhaps 8-10% of California's population, enough to give them several extra members of Congress.)
6. To the extent their presence has economic advantages, (This is exaggerated.) the gains go to a small segment of the population, and clearly are NOT spent ameliorating the costs.
7. Most of the population growth of the last 50 years has been driven by illegal immigration; Without it we'd be a less crowded country, with more affordable housing.
8. So many illegal aliens they've largely given up on learning English, resulting in a polyglot society with all the downsides that brings, of which the man-years wasted waiting through "Press one for English" is perhaps the least.
1. That's how they're defined by some people - that kind of dehumanizing essentialism is not required.
2. Illegals don't care about laws is not supported. In fact it's wrong in a baseline way when connected to our cultural morals - someone willing to steal a loaf of bread to feed their family and all that.
3. Unuspported.
4. As you've been told many times - illegals are an underclass; that means they are not interchangeable with other workers. See: seasonal farm labor. Even assuming more than marginal overlap, wage inelasticity is a demonstrated thing. The consensus is that this effect is true, but marginal and concentrated.
5. Your may be surprised which states tolerate illegals! Check out Texas. Look up which states do seasonal farm labor sometime. This is also wrong.
6. 'clearly are NOT spent ameliorating the costs.' no sure what that means, but that clearly needs support.
7. We are nowhere near at capacity as a country, this is wrong.
8. This is just a racist myth from like the 1980s.
================
Given the number of unsupported assumptions and fallacies, it sure looks like you start with hostility and look for reasons. Which the outgroup theory neatly explains.
"1. That's how they're defined by some people - that kind of dehumanizing essentialism is not required."
No, that is literally how the group is defined: "Illegal immigrants". The intersection of immigrants, and illegal. If you're here legally you're not one.
It's like complaining that defining bank robbers as a group based on their having robbed banks is "dehumanizing essentialism". No, it's just literally how the group is defined. They're absolutely human beings, but they're humans belonging to a group defined by being in the country illegally.
"2. Illegals don't care about laws is not supported. In fact it's wrong in a baseline way when connected to our cultural morals - someone willing to steal a loaf of bread to feed their family and all that."
We call such people "shoplifters", and prosecute them. Our cultural morals do not, as much as you might wish they do, approve of illegal immigration. Indeed, isn't that what Mr. Toad was complaining about? That illegal immigrants were inexplicably unpopular?
"3. Unuspported."
Homeland Security and the Integrity of the Social Security Number
"To acquire an SSN improperly, undocumented immigrants either apply for a "legitimate" SSN using false documents, or they create or purchase a counterfeit Social Security card. Since an undocumented immigrant is not required to show a Social Security card prior to hiring, he or she may simply invent a nine-digit number. These are all criminal acts. This SSN may be one the Agency has already assigned to another individual (stolen SSN) or one never assigned (fake SSN).
SSA acknowledges that illegal immigrants account for a significant portion of items in the ESF. Three industries-agriculture, food and beverage, and services-account for almost half the wage items in the ESF. Agriculture is the largest contributor, representing about 17 percent of all ESF items. In one study of 20 agriculture employers, we determined that 6 of every 10 wage reports submitted by these employers had incorrect names or SSNs. From 1996 through 1998, these 20 employers submitted over 150,000 wage items for which the employee's name and/or SSN did not match SSA records, representing almost $250 million in suspended wages over the 3-year period.
...
SSA's coordination with the INS has been minimal. For example, SSA does not provide the INS a list of employers who repeatedly submit erroneous name and/or SSN information. "
"4. As you've been told many times - illegals are an underclass; that means they are not interchangeable with other workers. See: seasonal farm labor. Even assuming more than marginal overlap, wage inelasticity is a demonstrated thing. The consensus is that this effect is true, but marginal and concentrated."
So you're going with, "Wages aren't really subject to supply and demand"?
1) Is false. Everyone who says that inevitably hates legal immigration too.
2) is silly. You can't tell the difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum? In any case, it's empirically false.
3) You just made this up, and it's also silly. The problem with identity theft that vexes people so much is people opening up credit cards in their name and things like that. That's not illegal immigrants.
4) Empirically wrong.
5) "We get more votes because we're more welcoming so more people come here" doesn't really sound like distortion, and it sounds like there's another solution.
6) Empirically wrong.
7) Empirically wrong, but also silly. Population growth is good.
8) Empirically wrong.
1-8 ipse dixits. Garbage.
David. You are a Democrat. You want to import millions of Democrats to turn the US into California, a permanent, one party, shithole state.
You should oppose abortion. We could have had 60 million more Democrats today, with 20 million being diverses.
"1) Is false. Everyone who says that inevitably hates legal immigration too."
Thank you. All this time I thought I was only against illegal immigration because it was, you know, illegal. Until you you so graciously told me that I hate legal immigration to I had no idea that was the case. I'm really glad that you know what I think so much better than I do so you could set me straight.
"3) You just made this up, and it's also silly. The problem with identity theft that vexes people so much is people opening up credit cards in their name and things like that. That's not illegal immigrants."
I guess the people that I've talked to over the years who have had their tax refunds withheld by the IRS because someone else has income reported on their SS number were lying to me because David says it just isn't so. And the people I've come across who can't finance a car because someone without their own SS number is using their SS number don't matter at all. Thank you again for explaining things to me so that I can understand.
"8. This is just a racist myth from like the 1980s."
I guess all those forms in Spanish, Chinese, etc. we have to use
at the car dealership I work at that are required by state law don't really exist because all immigrants learn English immediately.
Thank you again for pointing out the way things really are instead of what I actually see myself.
I mean, who are you supposed to believe? Nieporent's naked "nuh uh," or your own lying eyes?
Lots of victimless stuff is illegal. The only thing that engenders a burning hate against the transgressors is illegal immigration.
Face it: it's not some love of order driving you.
If you truly believe that, that's truly sad.
The reason is, we need an underclass, and everyone knows we do. We need someone who will work for less than minimum wage, without legally-mandated benefits and safety regulations and all the rest of it.
But why do we need to turn to the rest of the world. I hear the phrase 'second class citizenship' tossed about by folks who complain about alleged treatment. But perhaps they are right, there should be different classifications of citizenship. That would provide just such an underclass to perform the dirty jobs.
Turns out, you don't even need the citizenship to get that!
Does the rape and impregnation of a ten-year-old girl count as extraordinary harm?
Asking for a country I know.
Your understanding of causality is pretty fucked up.
... says the person who can't answer a straightforward question.
Yes but what's your point?
Illegal immigrants commit rape and murder.
Legal immigrants commit rape and murder.
Naturalized US citizens commit rape and murder.
US born citizens commit rape and murder.
What's your assertion? That we should accept rapes and murders because we can't stop all of them?
If that is extraordinary harm, it rather blows apart Somin's Godwin rant that is premised on there only having been one Hitler.
Someone from Pennsylvania has committed a rape and murder in New York. Does that mean that we should say, "This wouldn't have happened if people weren't allowed to engage in interstate travel," and therefore argue that interstate travel has "extraordinary harms" and should be banned or heavily restricted?
You might want to read up on the difference between breaking the law and exercising a constitutional right.
Not a distinction you shitty causal logic makes.
You prove way too much in your quest to turn a story that's hard for pro lifers to deal with into more build the wall fuel.
Forced emigration sent Lenin to Russia. It is a safe bet that the
revolution would not have happened or have been successful without him.
Q: Does (any situation whatsoever) justify limiting immigration?
Ilya: You know, the arguments for it just aren't convincing.
I'm truly shocked.
Look, Ilya, if you have definitive "X isn't true" explanations, feel free to share them. But when you're doing a subjective analysis of whether a particular argument is strong enough to justify immigration restrictions, save everyone's time. Just say no from the beginning. It's obvious what the answer will be and that absolutely nothing whatsoever will be strong enough to convince you otherwise. It's a pointless exercise.
The situation which justifies limiting immigration is the will of the people of the United States.
Nothing more is necessary to justify any policy, no matter what Ilya thinks of it.
So… slavery was justified when it was popular?
Legally, yeah. We're not arguing with Ilya's conviction that open borders are a moral obligation that overrides the will of the people expressed through elections. I don't think there's any point in arguing with him on that level, the guy got pulled out of the water and into the lifeboat as a child, and you will never convince him that there isn't an obligation to pull everybody else into the life boat, even if that sinks it.
We're arguing with his claim that a sovereign nation isn't allowed to have enforced borders. The legal argument.
His moral views tend to bleed over into his assessment of the legal issues, though.
When I say "legally, yeah" in regards to slavery, what I mean is that the Constitution, while not using the word, did acknowledge slavery. Whether slavery was constitutional or not wasn't, until the 13th amendment, a real legal question.
That's not to say that the Constitution, properly interpreted, wouldn't have made slavery an impractically difficult thing to practice. Which is why Taney had to dishonestly deny that blacks could be citizens. just that it didn't outright forbid it, prior to the 13th amendment.
Still doesn't, for that matter. The 13th amendment permits slavery as a criminal penalty.
My statement was about immigration. What the hell are you talking about interjecting slavery.
"But that's a relatively rare situation."
In an American context, maybe. For some people on the northern and southern borders it might hold true. But even now in Europe, after decades of ethnic consolidation, there are still many ethnic groups that cross borders. Germans, for instance. Asia is even less segregated; central Asian and southeast Asian countries all have significant numbers of their neighboring ethnicities. Africa also has sticky areas.
I agree that the "Hitler and Mad Scientist scenarios" are statistically unlikely to the point of being negligible for social policy. But precisely those same arguments can be used to say that the "immigrants who make extraordinary contributions" are equally improbable. At least as measured incrementally...
Yes, some immigrants do make great contributions and advancements. For some of them, it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time. The technological predecessors are mature and if Sergey Brin hadn't made the insight, someone else almost certainly would have. In other words, the innovation could have occurred regardless of immigration policy. For others, their personal genius would have manifested regardless of location. Einstein was a genius in both Germany and the US. Worldwide, we all benefited from his innovations in both countries. Again, we benefit regardless of immigration policy.
We do not owe the world any explanation or rationalization for immigration policies.
A country is its people. If the people do not wish to be the global lifeboat and refugee camp, then so be it. If the people do not wish to allow in people for seemingly petty or unfair reasons, then so be it.
The country, its collective properties, laws, and borders are governed ultimately by the people, whose will is channeled through and implemented by the elected government. So be it.
"Ironically, of course, immigration restrictionists usually most want to keep out immigrants from more divergent backgrounds and cultures."
More bullshit by Somin. It's not the "divergent backgrounds" that bothers me. It's the illegal immigration by anyone of any background that bothers me.
What a ridiculous article. This guy must be the Volokh AA candidate
So what happens when open-border advocates like Somin deal with a war crimes fugitive? They let him stay in their country, refuse to file charges, and eventually the suspect's behavior catches up with him: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62129337 ("Bill Horace, an accused Liberian warlord who fled to Canada, was shot to death in 2020. Now, his alleged killer will appear in court. Can justice ever be truly served?")