The Volokh Conspiracy
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State Attorney General Suggests Considering Applicants' Ideological Viewpoints in Denying Carry Licenses
The California AG endorses denying licenses based on the applicant's "hatred" or "racism."
Friday, the day after the New York State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen Supreme Court decision, the California Attorney General wrote a letter to California law enforcement and government lawyers, expressing "the Attorney General's view that the Court's decision renders California's 'good cause' standard to secure a permit to carry a concealed weapon in most public places unconstitutional." California thus seems ready to promptly shift to a fundamentally shall-issue regime, in which pretty much all law-abiding adults can get licenses to carry concealed weapons. Nor will this require legislative action, I think; California already has a may-issue regime in place for licensing, so—as the AG's office notes—licensing authorities ("sheriffs and chiefs of police") can just use that regime but essentially without applying a good-cause requirement.
But the AG's office concludes that the existing statutory requirement "that a public-carry license applicant provide proof of 'good moral character' remains constitutional," and that this requirement isn't limited to disqualifying felons, certain violent misdemeanants, and the like. And in particular the AG's office suggests that people who hold certain ideological viewpoints should be disqualified:
Existing public-carry policies of local law enforcement agencies across the state provide helpful examples of how to apply the "good moral character" requirement. The Sacramento County Sheriff's Office, for example, currently identifies several potential reasons why a public-carry license may be denied (or revoked), which include "[a]ny arrest in the last 5 years, regardless of the disposition" or "[a]ny conviction in the last 7 years." It is reasonable to consider such factors in evaluating an applicant's proof of the requisite moral character to safely carry firearms in public. See, e.g., Bruen (referencing "law-abiding citizens").
Other jurisdictions list the personal characteristics one reasonably expects of candidates for a public-carry license who do not pose a danger to themselves or others. The Riverside County Sheriff's Department's policy, for example, currently provides as follows: "Legal judgments of good moral character can include consideration of honesty, trustworthiness, diligence, reliability, respect for the law, integrity, candor, discretion, observance of fiduciary duty, respect for the rights of others, absence of hatred and racism, fiscal stability, profession-specific criteria such as pledging to honor the constitution and uphold the law, and the absence of criminal conviction." [Emphasis added.]
As to how law enforcement is to figure out such matters, the AG's office has some advice: Among other things,
As a starting point for purposes of investigating an applicant's moral character, many issuing authorities require personal references and/or reference letters. Investigators may personally interview applicants and use the opportunity to gain further insight into the applicant's character. And they may search publicly-available information, including social media accounts, in assessing the applicant's character. [Emphasis added.]
This strikes me as clearly unconstitutional under the First Amendment, even apart from the Second Amendment. The government can't restrict ordinary citizens' actions—much less their constitutionally protected actions—based on the viewpoints that they express. People can't be denied benefits because they
- endorse "hatred" (a potentially extraordinarily broad and vague term) and "racism" (a term that, especially in much recent usage, is likewise highly broad and vague),
- because they endorse certain extremist views of Islam (or any other religion),
- because they endorse violent Communist revolution,
- are strongly anti-police,
- anti-government,
- anti-abortion,
- pro-abortion-rights,
- environmentalist, or
- pro-animal-rights.
Nor does it matter that some extreme adherents of the relevant ideology engage in violence (something that's true for many ideologies), or that there are strands in the ideology that overtly support violence under some circumstances (again, something that's true for many ideologies). Just as the Free Exercise Clause would bar the government from engaging in religious discrimination in deciding which citizens can do certain things, so the Free Speech Clause bars the government from engaging in viewpoint discrimination. (The rules related to religious discrimination and viewpoint discrimination may be different when the government is acting as employer, but here we're talking about the government controlling the behavior of ordinary citizens.)
And of course it's easy to see how, if California were allowed to deny concealed carry licenses to whoever California law enforcement officials believe is "racis[t]" or endorses "hatred," then some other state could deny such licenses—or lots of other kinds of licenses—to whoever its law enforcement officials believe is anti-government or anti-police or a Muslim extremist or what have you. Indeed, now that some states can ban abortion, presumably strong support of abortion rights might be seen in many states as lack of "good character" (since in those states' views, it would be support for mass murder). The First Amendment doesn't allow this.
There are of course other problems here as well:
[1.] Mere arrest history, without proof that the arrestee actually engaged in illegal conduct, strikes me as inadequate to justify denying Second Amendment rights.
[2.] Lack of "fiscal stability"—which may simply mean being very poor or insolvent—can't be such a basis, either.
[3.] More broadly, even behaviors that we do think show bad moral character, such as minor crimes (not felonies) or torts related to dishonesty or vandalism or the like, don't strike me as sufficient to strip people of their constitutional rights. I appreciate the AG's argument that:
Bruen recognizes that States may ensure that those carrying firearms in their jurisdiction are "'law-abiding, responsible citizens.'" See also id. (Kavanaugh, J., concurring) (States may "require a license applicant to undergo a background check, a mental health records check, and training in firearms handling and in laws regarding the use of force, among other possible requirements"). Accordingly, in assessing whether an applicant has established "good moral character," issuing authorities should recognize that Bruen does not eliminate the duty or authority of local officials to protect the communities that they know best by ensuring that licenses are only issued to individuals who—by virtue of their character and temperament—can be trusted to abide by the law and otherwise ensure the safety of themselves and others.
But while the Court made clear that this allows prohibitions on gun possession or carrying by felons or the mentally ill, and while it may also extend to illegal violence short of a felony, I can't see it as going anywhere near as far as the AG's office suggests.
[4.] And the exercise of an individual constitutional right generally can't be conditioned on the rightsholder's submitting "personal references."
Again, I think that on balance, even with these problems, the California licensing regime is indeed switching to basically shall-issue. In practice, I doubt that the "good moral character" requirement would be used to disqualify many people, other than those who fail the federal background checks.
But it seems clear to me that the viewpoint-based criteria that the AG's office is recommending would violate both the First and Second Amendments, and some of the other criteria would violate the Second.
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So that means no Dems and Libs.
The lawyer is the stupidest people in the country. If I were this AG, I would not put any reversible rules in writing. I would accept all applications, and just not issue any permit to disfavored people. Try to make me, I would say. If a judge issued an order, I would say, the application is lost. Submit again. In the meantime, I would fine the freedom loving judge for going 1 mph over the speed limit, and every time. I would have zoning inspector force him to repaint his house if a paint chip were seen.
Professor,
Honestly, to me this sounds like the AG trying to stealth-continue the law as it currently exists. That rather than some extremely narrow "good moral character" test for failure it will instead be just as narrow for success.
I love hearing about how vital it is to maintain our political norms and all from people who, as we see, are happy to piss all over them.
Permits may be denied to those with bad character.
Racism is conclusive proof of bad character.
Those with bad character must be denied a gun permit.
Republicans, Mormons, NIMBYs, Joe Rogan listeners, and all white people are racists.
Therefore . . .
*slaps forehead*
Stupid redundancy and failure to proofread.
Actually, the political party of racial division is the democrats.
Nothing could be more hateful than Nancy Pelosi, unless it is Maxine Waters.
Anyone who has advocated abortion clearly has a killer's mindset.
Having a social media account with any company that has cancelled a sitting President is clear lack of respect for the rights of others.
Hey, this can be fun!
Except this is California we’re talking about. That plus good luck selling anyone not a right wing extremist that the Democrats are the party of racial division.
I am not making any claims; their party platform is.
Like I said, good luck selling that to anyone who isn’t a right wing extremist.
"The White liberal is the worst enemy to America and the worst enemy to the Black man... Now the White liberals aren’t White people who are for independence, who are liberal, who are moral, who are ethical in their thinking, they are just a faction of White people who are jockeying for power the same as the White conservatives are a faction of White people who are jockeying for power. Now they are fighting each other for booty, for power, for prestige and the one who is the football in the game is the Negro. Twenty million Black people in this country are a political football, a political pawn an economic football, an economic pawn, a social football, a social pawn...”
Malcolm X (Right wing Extremist)
And just out of curiosity is there anything else on which you agree with Malcolm X?
Yeah I agreed with a lot of what he said, especially that Black people have a right to defend themselves from violence. His rejection of the Nation of Islam.
Its hard to see anything in this passage to disagree with, although I note most of I is disagreeing with his earlier self:
"L]istening to leaders like Nasser, Ben Bella, and Nkrumah awakened me to the dangers of racism. I realized racism isn't just a Black and white problem. It's brought bloodbaths to about every nation on earth at one time or another.
Brother, remember the time that white college girls came into the restaurant—the one who wanted to help the [Black] Muslims and the whites get together—and I told her there wasn't a ghost of a chance and she went away crying? Well, I've lived to regret that incident. In many parts of the African continent, I saw white students helping Black people. Something like this kills a lot of argument. I did many things as a [Black] Muslim that I'm sorry for now. I was a zombie then—like all [Black] Muslims—I was hypnotized, pointed in a certain direction and told to march. Well, I guess a man's entitled to make a fool of himself if he's ready to pay the cost. It cost me 12 years.
That was a bad scene, brother. The sickness and madness of those days—I'm glad to be free of them."
Impressed that you can spell his last name.
Let me see if I can clarify the issue by way of example: A certain number of insurance carriers (not all of them) have policies of doing whatever they can to avoid paying honest claims, which is why the plaintiff's bar exists. I myself have made a lot of money suing insurance companies over wrongly denied (or grossly underpaid) claims.
So, the insurance lobby wags it finger at me and says, "You're just in it for the money." Which isn't entirely true; I'm partly in it for the money but also partly in it because my clients really have been screwed by insurance companies. And of course the plaintiff's bar only exists because these claims were wrongly denied; the insurance companies could put me out of business any time they want by paying just claims. So whether I'm in it for the money or not, I'm going after a problem that really does exist. I don't make these cases up out of whole cloth.
Likewise, racism (some of it systemic) and institutional prejudice really do exist; this is not a made up problem (though I suppose we can argue about the extent to which it exists). Democrats are trying to fix it, and, yes, would like to get the black vote. But for all the right-wing finger wagging about how Democrats are just doing it to get black votes, the fact remains that these are real problems that are being addressed, and if you want to put BLM out of business, then maybe directing your ire at the racists might be a good place to start. Race hucksters only exist because racism exists. If there were no racism the race hucksters wouldn't have a platform.
And for the right to claim that the Democrats are the party of racial division ignores that racial division already exists, and it's the grossest of cynicism for the right wing to claim that the people trying to fix the problem are the true racists.
The right-wingers at this white, male blog are not interested in your point of view. Especially the bigots, but the bigot-friendly conservatives, too.
They’re not whom I write for.
Another clinger win!
As Prof. Volokh explains, "bigots" are no less entitled to their constitutional rights than anyone else. I don't know what law school the California AG went if (s)he doesn't know this.
These CA AGs are all political hacks. They have zero interest in remaining faithful to any Constitution, ethics, morals, or spouses.
"So, the insurance lobby wags it finger at me and says, "You're just in it for the money.""
Seems like a harsh comment from the notoriously charitable insurance companies.
You were on track until you said "Democrats are trying to fix it". There is no actual evidence in support of that position and rather a lot of evidence against it. On the contrary, Democrats seem to be the loudest about perpetuating the racial divisions and opposing efforts to treat people as individuals.
But democrats are not trying to fix the problem of racism. They are using it's existence (to which they have been the biggest contributors in the US by far) to gain power. Democrats fighting for racial injustice is a sick joke, but that doesn't stop their useful idiots from labeling anyone who opposes them as right wing extremists.
"That plus good luck selling anyone not a right wing extremist that the Democrats are the party of racial division."
It is not really a debatable point now.
"[a]ny arrest in the last 5 years, regardless of the disposition"
That should set off alarm bells. So someone can be totally innocent, arrested on a mistake (or set up by the cops), and then that is a basis to deny them a license.
Does the AG believe in Due Process? Nah.
I wonder what qualified immunity doctrine has to say about arresting people to deny their newfound rights under Bruen . . .
See, this guy swore an oath that he’s perfectly comfortable ignoring. He should be removed from office. But he’ll suffer no consequences at all. That’s how we roll.
The only way to stop officials of all flavors from pissing on civil rights like this is to make some examples. But we don’t because we’re usually not bothered by mistreatment of others’ rights. Then when they screw with ours we’re like “how could this happen?!?!”
This is how.
I am not issuing a gun license to an admitted "Proud Boy".
...or to a member of Jane's Revenge or BLM or Antifa...
Those are not self styled "militias".
They are actual, in fact, militias of insurrectionists.
They are self styled terrorists; you've got us there.
Because you’re a left wing fascist wannabe with zero regard for civil rights.
What the proper response around here. Oh, yeah - fuck off, slaver.
The proper response around here it to use a vile racial slur regularly.
Roughly every three weeks seems to be this white, male blog's preferred frequency.
You mean "Bitter Klingers" ??? (which you stole from Barry Hussein (Peace be upon him, oops, I mean "Him")
Yeah, stop saying that (I'm neither Bitter, or a Klinger (did admire Jamie Faar's portrayal, of a character that wasn't even in the original (and IMHO much better) movie Version)
And I'll stop talking about your Pre-Versions (HT Major B. Guano)
Frank
" Yeah, stop saying that "
If my occasional interruptions of the stream of wingnuttery at this white, male blog bother you, ask the management to censor me.
The proprietor has done it before, repeatedly. If you ask nicely, perhaps he will do it again.
(Here's another perspective on that one.)
No, it's more the (redacted), Jerry
How's the Chipped Beef at The State Correctional Institution – Greene (SCI Greene)
Frank "Victim of (redacted)"
Presumably, you're not issuing anything to anyone anyways.
Your contemptuous disregard for the Constitution is noted.
Well its pretty demonstrable that it wasn't the Proud Boys that NY's gun laws were targeting:
"Black people faced 78% of felony gun possession charges in the state last year, while making up 18% of its population — compared to 7% of prosecutions and 70% of the population for non-Hispanic whites, the defenders said in their own friend-of-the-court brief. Over 90% of people arrested in New York City on charges of possessing a loaded firearm are Black and/or Latino, according to the filing, although non-Hispanic whites comprise nearly 1/3 of the city population."
And I will go out on a limb and say that's exactly who California has, and will continue targeting in their denial of gun rights, and persecution of those who exercise their rights without permission.
As Tim Pool has pointed out, Democrats both decried stop-and-frisk yet champion the far worse red flag laws, where cops do not even have to be outside to hassle minorities. They can go inside their houses to hassle them.
"I am not issuing a gun license to an admitted "Proud Boy"."
Then you should not be employed as a government functionary but as God, since you have the power to determine worthiness of rights based on morality.
If anybody can be counted upon to defend our vestigial right-wing racists (when not >a href="https://abovethelaw.com/2020/03/prominent-law-school-professor-drops-the-n-word-after-specifically-being-asked-not-to-do-so/">using a vile racial slur himself, and repeatedly), it is Prof. Eugene Volokh of the UCLA School of Law.
If anybody can be counted upon to defend our vestigial right-wing racists (when not using a vile racial slur himself, and repeatedly), it is Prof. Eugene Volokh of the UCLA School of Law.
Gun nuttery and racism go together like the Republican Party and the Federalist Society.
Carry on, clingers.
Clingers? You mean those Philadelphia Black Panthers?
Another clinger win!
If you consider it a victory when the trailing team scores two meaningless runs during the eighth inning of a 15-3 game, enjoy the clinger victory.
Reality-based scoreboard: Betters 15, Bigots 3.
It is always a feel-good story when the good guys win. Even better when they beat a bunch of deplorable low-lifes.
Your contempt for the First Amendment is duly noted.
Why don't you Google "ACLU" and "Nazis March on Skokie" and see what you get.
Not to mention that the term "racist" is used in, shall we say, very creative, politically motivated ways.
I wouldn't say that calling anyone who disagree with a leftist "racist" is creative as such... but I appreciate the intent to be generous to people who have only the race card to play.
Prof. Volokh is and should be entitled to a vile racial slur as regularly as he wishes. He also is entitled to impose censorship at his blog.
That doesn't mean he gets a pass on having his misconduct mentioned -- except from his bigoted, half-educated, right-wing fans.
Obsolete right-wing hypocrites with a strange attraction to vile racial slurs have rights, too.
Bored, you're an expert. Have you ever seen any evidence of legal training in any of the Rev's comments?
Sounds like someone "Bitter" over being rejected from a "Lower Tier" Law School.
Right.
Today we'll deny a carry permit to someone who talks about human biodiversity. Tomorrow -- someone who says "All lives matter!" The next day -- someone who voted for Trump. And so on.
Prominent Law Professor dropping the "N-Word" (are we in Third Grade, can we just say "Nigger"?? (Barry Hussein Did)
Oh Yeah, want to hear a "Prominent Law Professor Dropping the N-Word" (AKA "Saying Nigger")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR6UwAez8Ko
Frank "Shouldn't a 1/2 N-Word only say 1/2 of the N-word??"
Frankie. I like the word, diverse. A diverse held a gun sideways and blasted.
My friends in the Po-Po used to call them a "BM" I believe from being irritated from typing that so many times on Crime Reports.
Frank "Gotta take a BM"
I think Justice Kavanaugh’s concurrence potentially opens up the sorts of considerations traditionally used to get (say) a law license. Professor Volokh obviously strongly disagrees with this. But it strikes me as a permissable read of the Kavanaugh concurrence if one looks at it without an ideological pre-disposition.
Professor Volokh would still be partially right under such a reading. You can’t deny someone a law license because he thinks Lawrence v. Texas or Roe v Wade or Atlanta Motel was wrongly decided, or says so on social media. The First Amendment still applies.
But you can deny a person a law license because of a broader variety of crimes than just crimes of violence. You can deny it because a person is insolvent and shows difficulty paying his debts. You can deny it because he lacks “moral character.”
Justice Kavanaugh’s concurrence makes it plausible that you could also deny someone a gun license on those terms as well.
The guy got a speeding ticket. That enough?
How about five speeding tickets?
Well, as the same Kavanaugh opinion pointed out, there’s also a constitutional right to travel. If you the state can’t take away your right to keep and bear arms over 5 speeding tickets, how can it be constitutional to take away your driving license and your constitutional right to travel?
I think the Kavanaugh opinion opens up this argument. It doesn’t connect disqualification from a gun license to anything specifically related ro misuse of guns. It merely says not “law-abiding” and “responsible.” It seems to me California has a fair basis to argue that 5 speeding tickets means you’re not “law abiding” and “responsible.” In general, it strikes me that the Kavanaugh opinon opens up the possibility a state could take away gun licenses for the same sorts of general reasons it can take away other licenses.
The Kavanaugh concurrence isn't the Court's holding in the case. It is merely a commentary provided and signed onto by the two most Statist Justice's to soothe their discomfort with reducing Government power. It isn't any more impactful on future cases than the dissents. Except of course when rebellious lower Courts try to use it as a fig leaf to defy the Constitution. Again like the dissent.
Add two to the dissenters, and you get 5. Five is a very important number in this particular game.
"how can it be constitutional to take away your driving license and your constitutional right to travel?"
In what universe is driving a right as opposed to a privilege?
Also, there are still ways to travel without driving.
As Jonathan Harker discovered when took a coach to Borgo Pass without need of a drivers license or even a car.
The jurisdiction of the Disciplinary Counsel should restricted to misconduct in the practice of law. If the public is oppressed, the regular lawyer is doubly so. The regular judge is triply so by the hierarchy.
There is no constitutional right to practice law, though. Isn't that difference relevant?
Well, in general, people who aren’t “law abiding” and “responsible” still have constitutional rights. But what Kavanaugh just said is that the right to keep and bear arms, at least outside the home, isn’t one of them. Doesn’t THAT make a difference?
We have to come up with some interpretation of what is meant by those words. Simply ignoring them and going with what we ourselves think ought to be the case doesn’t work.
After all, there’s a constitutional right to travel. But you have to be fairly law abiding and responsible to drive a car. You can lose your driver’s livense for less than 5 speeding tickets, and sometimes one DUI.
Again Kavanaugh's comments aren't the Court's holding.
Yes they are. Not just Kavanaugh and the Chief Justice, but also the 3 dissenters, would permit states to issue gun licenses for out-of-home carry only to citizens who are both “law abiding” and “responsible.” That’s 5 justices. That’s the majority.
The Kavanaugh opinion is in fact the controlling opinion of the court on this issue, the one that lower courts arw obligated to abide by.
Better learn how to count. The majority opinion was 6-3 with no partial concurrences, every word of the majority opinion had 6 votes. Kavenaugh's concurrence had only two justices, none of the dissenters signed on.
From Marks v. United States (1977):
In this case, there is a majority opinion, so the rule about concurring opinions does not apply.
Driving a car is not the only way to exercise the right to travel. Even if it were, a driver's license after a driving-related conviction is substantively different from losing it over an unrelated offense or mere thoughtcrime.
" But what Kavanaugh just said is that the right to keep and bear arms, at least outside the home, isn’t one of them. Doesn’t THAT make a difference?"
No, his opinion is not the holding of the court. It makes zerof difference.
Yes it is. 5 justices are a majority. The opinion of the court held only that ststes can’t require applicants to show a special reason to need a gun. But nothing in it is inconsistent with the Kavanaugh concurrence, which together with the Chirf Justice and the 3 dissenters makes it the controlling opinion on the subject.
I took a look at Kavanaugh's concurrence. You are reading way to much in it. Any subjective requirements will have the same problem with giving licensing officials too much discretion that got the NY law at issue overturned.
I don't think there's anything in the constitution that says you have a right to be a lawyer.
Well, we have the right to remain silent, which is kind of the antithesis of being a lawyer.
And I know someone initially denied the right to sit for the bar in UT because of one arrest for DUI, dismissed by the judge sua sponte for lack of probable cause. They inferred that the one dismissed DUI indicated alcoholism. He had refused a roadside sobriety test, unless the cops could show probable cause. And of course, that was why they wanted the “voluntary” roadside sobriety test in the first place. On appeal, the judges told the bar examiners that they couldn’t deny sitting for the bar based on assertion of Constitutional rights. But that meant that it took another year before he could take the bar exam.
Of course, that exact scenario could probably only have happened in Mormon dominated Utah, who also very likely dominated the bar admissions character panel. And another attorney slot was retained for their fellow religionists. But other equivalent scenarios can be envisioned in other states.
Jeez Ted Kennedy left a young woman to Asphyxiate (NOT Drowned, there's a difference*) and never got disbarred, nice to "know somebody"
Frank
*OK, Drowning is a form of Asphyxiation, but not all Asphyxiations are due to Drowning, i.e. in Mary Lou Kopeckney's case (exhausted the remaining Oxygen in Teddy's submerged Oldsmobile (Hey, Kudo's for a Senator driving an Amurican Car)
A law license is not an enumerated constitutional right.
Thomas says right in his opinion that other constitutional rights are not conditioned on good cause, and the second amendment must be as available for free exercise as other fundamental rights.
All this is is a desperate attempt to evade Bruen, just like officials in the south tried to evade other civil rights decisions decades ago. And I can't help thinking it will also be blacks that bear the brunt of this attempted evasion. But I don't think it will be very effective, maybe SF and Alameda, but most county Sheriff's take the law seriously, and there will be people lined up to sue them for using lawful exercise of one constitutional right to deny exercise of another.
Your analogy is massively flawed. You are comparing a license to practice law with a Constitutionally enumerated right.
You also commented:
"Well, as the same Kavanaugh opinion pointed out, there’s also a constitutional right to travel. If you the state can’t take away your right to keep and bear arms over 5 speeding tickets, how can it be constitutional to take away your driving license and your constitutional right to travel?"
A driver's license is not a requirement to exercise your right to travel. A license to drive a massive and potentially deadly machine on public roads is a privilege, not a right. You do not need a driver's license to drive a vehicle on private roads. You do not need a driver's licence to ride as a passenger in a car, train, or plane. You do not need a driver's license to ride a bike or to be a pedestrian.
Wait to you see the roadblocks that NJ's Attorney General throws up. And he will undoubtedly be assisted every step of the way by NJ's courts. My prediction is that it will take another trip to the federal courts to get constitutional gun laws in NJ.
You'll pry NJ's gun control regime from the NJ Supreme Court's dead hands. If you look up "malicious fuckers" in the dictionary, they are depicted therein.
Always loved how the NJ State Police arrested Tony Soprano for "Possessing Ill-legal (at Bushwood) Hollowpoint Ammunition!!!"
Then a few days later he's firing off a fully automatic rifle in Upstate New York ("Soprano Home Movies")
Best part was the US Attorney bitch slapping the local Essex CO ADA, lets go to the Video Tape!
"Can you really not be aware we've been building a RICO case against Tony Soprano for five fսcking years? Then you blow this popcorn fart."
Frank "watches too much television"
How long before occupational licenses are denied to anyone the licensing body arbitrarily deems ideologically “wrong”?
Years ago.
In China, they've worked out a great system to punish wrongthinkers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
California AG's proposed policy is a step in this direction.
Pointers from this blog on avoiding viewpoint-based discrimination might be more credible if this blog did not have a vivid record of imposing partisan, viewpoint-based censorship on those whose politics the proprietor dislikes.
Carry on, bitter clingers. Your betters will let you know when your preferences are a point of interest.
After you Google as per the above, you can try to Google the term "state actor." You might actually learn something. Doubtful in your case, but hope springs eternal.
"The Reverend" has a slow Internet connection at State Correctional Institution – Greene (SCI Greene)
Another clinger win!
"Pointers from this blog on avoiding viewpoint-based discrimination might be more credible if this blog did not have a vivid record of imposing partisan, viewpoint-based censorship on those whose politics the proprietor dislikes."
If that was the case you'd be long gone.
Carry on dohtard.
Prof. Volokh banished Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland for making fun of conservatives too deftly for the proprietor's taste.
He merely censors Arthur Kirkland (so far, but maybe if you ask him nicely he will use that ban hammer again), forbidding me to use certain words (such as "sl_ck-j_w") to describe conservatives.
That's right -- a self-described advocate for free expression censors his political opponents by forbidding them (in writing) to use the term "sl_ck-j_w" to describe his political allies.
(He claims he is enforcing civility standards, yet he does nothing about repeated calls by his right-wing fans for liberals to be shot in the face, placed face-down in landfills, raped, sent to Zyklon showers, etc., though. Anyone -- including other Conspirators -- who wishes to explain or defend this is welcome to try, but I doubt any conservative has the courage or character to try.)
The proprietor is and should be entitled to censor and ban at his blog -- those who engage in shabby, hypocritical, bigot-friendly conduct have rights, too.
...and yet here you are.
Carry on dohtard.
C'mon Bumble,
You're insulting Dohtards.
The “May-Issue” states will become “Shall-Issue” in name only, until dragged kicking and screaming into compliance. Gun control advocates hold that gun ownership is itself evidence of moral turpitude.
Which is more likely to occur first, in your judgment -- (1) that dragged-kicking-and-screaming compliance, or (2) a Supreme Court decision (from an enlarged, modern Court) that puts a short mainstream leash on gun nuttery?
400,000,000 privately owned guns say you're wrong, Jerry S.
Guns don't get to vote. And there aren't enough gun nuts to prevent the liberal-libertarian mainstream majority from imposing adult supervision on America.
If you're referring to the issue of how to address existing inventories after reasonable gun laws are enacted, I am confident reasoning, modern, educated Americans will be adequate to the task, particularly if those in opposition tend to be poorly educated, gullible, downscale clingers.
And they don't shoot people.
Another clinger win
3) Arthur L. Hicklib gets the Full Rosenbaum.
They will somehow exemopt the cops that they have decried as racist.
There’s money to be made suing state officials between now and then.
Makes sense. After all, everyone knows that thoughts & prayers are a much more effective solution to mass shootings than trying to make sure people who might commit mass shootings don't have machine guns.
It seems almost useless to point out that since 1934 there are only four known instances of machine guns used in crimes where someone was killed. In three of those instances the weapons were legally obtained, with two of them illegally used by law enforcement officers.
Eeek!!!! Facts!!!!!!!
What are the four instances?
Hard to find, even on AlGore's Internets, but 1-2 were LEO's committing murder, and apparently wanted to do it "in style",
Given some 500,000 Machineguns in Private Hands (and in all 50 States (+ DC) as some were "War Trophies" registered before the Amnesty in 1968, and legal in the State(or DC) regardless of any local/state laws)
In summary, Legally owned Machineguns (the Legal term) are probably the least category of gun used in Crime,
Frank "I need more Ammo"
I believe one of the other two was the 2015 San Bernardino incident, which was Muslim terrorism. Unless someone is counting that as two because two people and two (illegally-converted) guns were involved. Otherwise, I have no idea what the "fourth" one might be.
We are talking about legally registered machine guns, which are rarely used in crime.
Henry, illegally converted machine guns are not legally registered machine guns.
Sure, argue with me about the definition of a machine gun. That's an excellent way to show that you're not a gun nut.
Okay, I'll bite: what do you think a machine gun is?
He thinks anything other than a muzzle loader is a machine gun.
And to show your (OK A-holes, "You're") a fucking Idiot.
Not that difficult, if it goes "Bang!" (Did I scare you, Pussy?) more than once with a single pull of the trigger (I Know, "Single Pull of your Trigger" is a foreign concept to you)
it's a Machine Gun, or lets have Sleepy Joe's Bureaus of Assholes, Trannies, and Fag/Exhibitionists (BATFE) define it....
"The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. "
Frank "Just the Facts, Maam"
Gun controllers always show their almost perfect ignorance.
I think that very few are ignorant. Most are just dishonest.
"Sure, argue with me about the definition of a machine gun. That's an excellent way to show that you're not a gun nut."
Ahhh....the old "knowing shit means you're a nut" canard.
Only way to speak with expertise is to be a blithering moron about the topic.
"people who might commit mass shootings"
I know you are from the Continent, but there is nothing more offensive to libery than that phrase. Anyone "might" commit a crime, so why don't we lock up everyone just in case?
But why don't you enlighten use how you would define "people who might commit mass shootings" in some coherent fashion that can be implemented by the law.
Maybe start by letting law enforcement figure it out?
There you go. Don't just let the police go after people who have committed crimes (or are suspected to have done so). Sic them on people "who might commit" them as well. We may need to expand our police forces, though.
IOW, you have no coherent standard, other than if the authorities think you "might" be dangerous, your rights can be taken away.
That you do not understand how this flies in the face of the concept of rule of law speaks volumes about your POV.
Leftists (such Martinned and the California AG) don't want rule of law. They want arbitrary rule (by them!).
Maybe "We the People" can figure it out
"Maybe start by letting law enforcement figure it out?"
...but aren't they racist and stuff?
Why should my rights be conditional on a cop saying it's cool? Should OTHER rights, such as speech, be limited in such a manner? Cops having sole discretion on illegal search and seizure seems like a bad idea, but maybe you can convince me...
I favor chaining everyone up in the barn when they finish working each day. That’ll put a stop to mass shooting and a whole wealth of other undesirable activities.
Because chaining people up is exactly the same thing as not letting them own a fire arm? Idiot.
Hello Idiot,
actually it is.
Frank "Not an Idiot, and tired of explaining to them"
Everyone knows that making searches subject to probable cause is a much more effective solution to crime than letting police just search whoever they want whenever they want to.
Everyone knows that allowing people to say what they want is a much more effective to hurting feelings with speech than shutting off speech I object to.
Everyone knows that trials where an accused gets to confront the evidence with representation is a much more effective solution to crime than just putting people in prison whenever the government wants to.
How am I doing? I’m interpreting the bill of rights like you apparently do.
You know as well as I do that the things you're talking about there are fundamental rights, unlike the right to own a gun which was only written into the US constitution because the founders were afraid of having their regime overthrown by slave revolts, Native American attacks and sundry other unpleasantness.
Of course you're right. The Second Amendment had absolutely nothing to do with a recent war for independence in which the opponent tried multiple times to make sure that the people couldn't defend themselves against said opponent. /sarc
No, it didn't.
If you think the Framers put in place a means for the government they set up to be overthrown, you're nuts.
Thats exactly what they did, guess I'm (DEEZ) "Nuts"
Frank " A little rebellion now and then is a good thing,”(HT T. Jefferson)
Sure.
[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
--NEW HAMPSHIRE CONSTITUTION
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms"
The Federalist, No 28
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
Federalist No 46
So, you passed 1619 history. Congratulations.
So, whether something is a "fundamental right" doesn't turn on whether it is in the Constitution, but rather whether someone thinks it is in the Constitution for the right reasons.
If you’re European you know damn well that free speech isn’t treated as a fundamental right.
If something is listed in the BoR that makes it a fundamental right. We can’t let the pols pick and choose or eventually they’ll damage them all. The 4th and 5th have already been diminished by the war on drugs and terror. Both sides are now working hard to break the first.
And slaves had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. You’ve been indoctrinated somewhere. A decent proportion of the colonies and the founders were opposed to slavery at the time. These guys had just won an unlikely victory over an oppressive colonizer and had no idea of what they were trying to build would actually work. The didn’t want to leave ordinary citizens at the mercy of the government if things went wonky.
bevis — That is history which you just made up out of whole cloth, because you thought it sounded plausible. If you ask yourself, how do I know that, and insist on evidence from the founding era you can point to, you will find yourself in difficulties.
Oh, there wasn’t a fight to free the colonies from a monarchy? Slavery was allowed in every colony at the time of the revolution?
The 1619 project is bs you know. Or maybe you don’t since earlier this week you posted one of your novelettes claiming the canard that our inflation is due to price gouging.
Your brain has been broken by politics.
Stephen you have to go no further than the English Bill of Rights enacted a century before the Revolution, in a country where slavery was virtually unknown to see not only the roots of the 2nd amendment but almost the whole tree.
Its worth noting that the English Civil war started in 1642 and started a long bloody war, the monarchy was bloodlessly restored in 1660 along with a rejuvenated parliament, yet a mere 28 years later they had to throw the Stewart's out again.
That's the conrext for when they put a right to keep and bear arms in the 1689 declaration of right:
"All Protestants have the right to bear arms for defence. These the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law."
For someone that harps so much about history you seem pretty ignorant of it.
Kazinski — Here is something you may not know about English history. Rights in England in the 17th century applied to English freemen and the nobility. Everyone else—a majority of the population—was governed arbitrarily, mostly by local justices of the peace, nobles, and by some freemen who were not part of the nobility. It was an ever-shifting, geographically varied system. It was adjusted often, but on the basis of results, not principles. Many commoners could not even change their place of residence without permission.
It is unwise to rely on historical accounts presented in pro-gun advocacy. Find better sources.
For 17th century England, an excellent point of beginning is, The Century of Revolution, by Christopher Hill, (Norton Library). I re-read it with profit last winter. Here is a quote from that work. It suggests the necessity of context if you want to avoid misinformation which comes to you from non-historians who cherry pick to serve a present-minded purpose:
"British freedom as established by 1714 meant, among other things, the unimpeded right of the Justice [of the Peace] to regulate in minutest detail the lives of his social subordinates."
That quotation was equally accurate throughout the 17th century.
Here is another quote:
"But the liberties for which the men of property fought so valiantly during the seventeenth century were not extended to the lower half of the population. For the poor the significance of the Habeas Corpus Act was that it allowed them to opt for transportation when condemned to death for stealing goods worth more than a shilling."
By the way, did you know there was a property requirement to serve in Cromwell's militia? That may have something to do with, "suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law."
Shows how fundamentally wrong you are about the founding of the United States. The founders had just spent about a decade fighting for a government that would leave them and theirs alone. They weren't just a faction fighting for power.
They wanted to ensure that they wouldn't have to go out and start fighting the next tyrant in about 10 years, and acted accordingly.
"them and theirs"
. . . including their slaves
Ain't been no slaves for Over a Century, "Reverend" you been Freeze Dried, or doing Hard time?
But they didn't delude themselves that it wouldn't happen anyway.
Jefferson:
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government], those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Men fight for freedom; then they begin to accumulate laws to take it away from themselves.
You just pinned my sarcasm detector. Does it pass certification?
That doesn't make a lot of sense as an interpretation. Why would the founders enact a prohibition on themselves disarming the public to prevent themselves from being overthrown? Did they think that one day Congress would say, "You know, actually we want Indians to attack us, so we're going to disarm the public to enable that"?
Legal realism has to make some logical sense, you know.
"After all, everyone knows that thoughts & prayers are a much more effective solution to mass shootings"
...then allowing somebody besides the police try and help people.
WE also know that gun-free zones are fool-proof as nobody would shoot there given that guns aren't allowed and all.
See footnote #9 of Bruen. The majority already short circuited shenanigans like this. Criteria for disapproval of a carry permit must be "narrow, objective, and definite standards" that leave nothing to the discretion of law enforcement.
Do you think States such as California really give a shit? Gun-owners are deserving of the lowest level of Hell as far as they are concerned.
I'm absolutely positive that Bruen will not bring about substantial change in similar States without more lawsuits.
There's this thang called "Civil Disobedience"
where when any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,
OK not advocating the violent overthrow of the Government (Prefer Peaceful/Non Violent means (HT MLK Jr),
but California can't keep repeat Violent Offenders in Jail, what are they gonna do with a million "Carrying concealed weapon without license" offenders"
and if you're good, you shouldn't get arrested in the first place.
Frank "am I Carrying? pull a gun and find out"
Maybe but they will pay legal fees and 1983 fees to if they try it.
"and if you're good, you shouldn't get arrested in the first place."
Criteria for disapproval of a carry permit must be "narrow, objective, and definite standards" that leave nothing to the discretion of law enforcement.
What a shame that the majority opinion in Bruen so flagrantly disregarded that principle of specificity. For instance, a search of the opinion turns up 31 instances of the term, "law-abiding." None of them seem to define the term. For instance:
It is undisputed that petitioners Koch and Nash—two ordinary, law-abiding, adult citizens—are part of “the people” whom the Second Amendment protects.
See the problem? The opinion, and EV too, want to have it both ways. They want vague, qualified judgments of personal virtue to do hard work to justify gun carrying. But they also want to deny any flip-side evaluation as an argument against gun carrying.
lol. wUT?
Law-abiding is pretty straightforward: a person who has not been convicted of breaking the law.
"See the problem? The opinion, and EV too, want to have it both ways. They want vague, qualified judgments of personal virtue to do hard work to justify gun carrying. But they also want to deny any flip-side evaluation as an argument against gun carrying."
Should you be banned from speech because the government does not like you or thinks you cannot be trusted?
So the SC has spoken. Now, will the district and appeals courts listen?
some will, some won't (you asked the question)
The way the LTC process is set up in California local sheriffs and police chiefs issue those licenses. In some counties California was already effectively shall issue because sheriffs were/are not asking for specific good cause. The words "personal protection" can be written in that section and that qualifies as sufficient good cause. Other jurisdictions are effectively "no issue" unless you are a VIP, close friend or relative of the sheriff, or a major campaign contributor. The sheriff of Santa Clara is a good example of the latter.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out with the sheriffs and police chiefs who are against 2nd Amendment rights. I think a few may fall into line but I suspect most will have to be dragged kicking and screaming via losses in court to do what the Constitution requires.
I had a CC permit issued in Kern County. I wrote a boilerplate 3 paragraph justification as to why I needed to CC. Never heard a peep about it. KC is basically shall issue.
The lovely thing about CA's system is my permit was valid throughout the entire state. SF, LA, etc. Their own residents were screwed, but no problem for me.
Something else, the law was written so long ago that the ripe suck Dems hadn't read it and didn't know that a person could CC in any school. After I left for TX, some rat finally told them and they immediately rewrote the law to prohibit that.
We can thank some college "police chiefs" for that one. (Why does a college even need its own police force, anyway?) They didn't like the fact that they couldn't prevent students from carrying on "their" campuses.
My FICO is 870 - because I don't have any debt except credit cards, which I pay off every month...
Is that evidence of fiscal responsibility? Do I need a 900+?
And for the record I am not an environmentalist or animal rights believer, so we're good, right?
Should members of the Klan be issued a carry permit? Nazis? Proud Boys? Or does their association and speech -- while clearly protected by the First Amendment -- constitute evidence of bad moral character?
,,,Antifa, BLM, Jane's Revenge...?
No, we need to draw up a *bipartisan* list. Remember, we want to disarm as many people as possible.
Nation of Islam (anti-white, anti-Jewish)
American Family institute (homophobic)
Green Party ([note to commissar - they're outside the duopoly, find some "ism" you can pin on them. Likewise with other third parties.])
Jehovah's Witnesses (anti-Catholic)
Priests for Life (anti-choice)
Anyone caught laughing at Dave Chappelle's jokes (anti-trans)
Or Hunter Biden? actually he's already prohibited under the Federal "Gun Safety" law passed ummm in 1968, which requires potential Gun Owners to answer
"Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?"
Hunter answered "No", The Navy says Otherwise (and his Laptop)
Let me know when he's charged
Frank
Also had his gun tossed into a public trash can, which is also rather illegal.
"Should members of the Klan be issued a carry permit?"
Yes.
"Nazis?"
Yes.
"Proud Boys?"
Yes.
"Or does their association and speech -- while clearly protected by the First Amendment -- constitute evidence of bad moral character?"
No.
Not even difficult questions.
Should we forbid anybody tied to antifa from having free speech? They certainly are not law abiding and their speech is quite unpleasant and tends to advocate illegal activity.
I say no...but I'm not sure you would if you were being consistent with your "principles"
I, for one, love the juxtaposition of Bruen and Dobbs. Almost 50 years ago the Court interpreted the Constitution to protect a woman's right to obtain an abortion. Since then, red states have responded by enacting a multitude of different laws aimed at narrowing that right and making it harder for it's citizens to exercise the right. The ensuing litigation, combined with changes in the Court's membership, effectively muddled the case law with a mess of plurality decisions (and in some cases, not even a plurality). As a result, lower court judges were free to cherry-pick precedents and opinions that upheld state laws or struck down state laws. The strategy culminated in Dobbs with the Court overruling the recognized right.
I chuckled every time Thomas used the term "substantial burden" in his Bruen opinion, since that was O'Connors original phrase for what became the "undue burden" standard in Casey (a standard flexible enough to uphold or strike down laws). Now it's time for the long-term process of adjudicating, case after case, which laws do and do not constitute a substantial burden on the right recognized in Heller. Blue states just need to continue enacting laws (and policies), which will be challenged, so that the case law gets muddied over time (the Court's membership will, in fact, keep changing). The long term strategy should be to make such a judicial mess of the right that Heller is ultimately overruled in the future. It's a long term strategy, but if executed well, it can clearly be successful.
I'm excited to see how it all plays out!
Gun cases have been fought in the courts since before Heller. After Heller the courts have continually and purposely misread and misquoted Heller to allow unconstitutional laws to stand.
I'm also excited to see how this plays out. Maybe the infamous California roster of not unsafe handguns can finally be abolished and we will be able to buy the same guns the rest of the country can.
You already can.
If lack of "fiscal stability" may simply mean being very poor or insolvent, what else might it mean?
Some very poor and insolvent people may lack a fixed address and carry all of their possessions around with them wherever they go - or perhaps leave them in a tent that is not very secure.
Yet these people may need to pack concealed heat more than some of their homefull neighbors, since they are likely to encounter more threats living outside.
Still, I think that this particular scotus would let a state deny vagrants permits. Under some theory that vagrants can't keep their weapon safely and securely. Even if the vagrant had no criminal record, arrest record, or history of mental disability.
Is carrying a five-dollar bill and one roll of quarters enough to establish a non-vagrant status. Precedent says no. So, soctus is likely not to prevent a state from denying permits to the homeless. Hopefully cato or aei will help these people out with legal help.
Guns for the homeless is a venerable American tradition.
1993: https://www.buckeyeplanet.com/forum/threads/guns-for-the-homeless.23726/
2018: https://thefreethoughtproject.com/senate-candidate-raising-funds-arm-homeless/
I guess that people of bad moral character ought to hire bodyguards, or get government jobs where the cops provide bodyguard services.
That way, the wealthy and powerful have the right to self-defense regardless of their character.
And the wealthy and powerful are the only important people.
Come to think of it, if you're not rich and powerful, how good *is* your character, really? Can you really be trusted with the means of self-defense? Better to submit to the burglars, rapists, kidnappers and murderers. If you didn't want to be robbed, raped or killed, you shouldn't have been of such bad character.
Eg, a woman who walks around with a short skirt is a shameless hussy with bad character. She wouldn't need a gun in the first place if she dressed more modestly. She's just asking for it.
Oh, and don't say something snarky like "all they should need to do is prove that their moral character meets the minimum necessary to work for the government."
That would be to authorize prying into the character of our noble public servants.
I don't think you've quite reached peak woke yet. Here's how this works:
1. You, alarmed by the possibility of never being able to use a gun for self-defense, attempt to purchase one.
2. Attempting to purchase a firearm is deemed failure to prove good moral character, because only Republicans would buy a gun;
3. You are denied the license;
4. Failure to obtain a license is an admission of guilt of attempted ownership of a gun;
5. You are arrested for attempting to buy a gun
6. Now you are on a 5-year ban list;
7. In five years, repeat from step #1
Despite the Marxist Steam Media's Lies, you can't really purchase a firearm "Through the Mail" (Unless you're an FFL dealer)
No, it requires going to a Gun Store, Gun Show, or (Eeeks!) meeting someone you only know over AlGores Internets (Actually they're probably fine with that, dammit, just argued against my point)
The last one doesn't require a background check (in most states) and in the ones that do, you know it's gonna be a LEO, so it's sort of an "Intelligence Test".
Frank
citizen: "I'd like a carry permit please."
gov't official: "Why do you think you need one?"
citizen: "Well, there're all these criminal types running around..."
gov't official: "Racist!!! No permit for you!"
"4. Failure to obtain a license is an admission of guilt of attempted ownership of a gun;
5. You are arrested for attempting to buy a gun"
Ironically, seldom is anybody who is denied a gun prosecuted for the attempt.
Because the laws are not just to annoy and hamper the exercise of rights. Not at all.
I’m shocked that politics would enter these decisions shocked!
Ha Captain Obvious this would happen
No way! Who's ever heard of a U.S. law enforcement agency being influenced by politics...
Denied for being pro abortion and denied for being anti abortion ? So you have to have not formed an opinion about the current hot button issue of our day to get a permit ?
I think the point of that enumeration was to illustrate how different police chiefs would have the flexibility to use entirely contradictory criteria as to who was suitable and who was not.
In the most perfect and elegant iteration of this policy, the police chief should be able to deny a gun license to anyone who has never made an anti-gun social media post.
The article singles out Riverside County where, in fact, Sheriff Bianco has made CCW's virtually shall-issue. Bianco is a very strong supporter of the Second Amendment, and the article seems to unfairly tar his department. As far as RCSD's policy, I can only guess that the language is boilerplate left over from a previous administration.
"People can't be denied benefits because they"
But a constitutional right isn't a "benefit", and if exercise is conditioned on some act of government, that act can't be a "benefit", either.
Didn't Justice Kennedy went on at length in the Obergefell majority opinion about how anti-gay "animus" (i.e., hatred) is behind all opposition to gay marriage? If California authorities accept this argument (and why wouldn't they?!), someone who's on record opposing gay marriage will be denied a carry permit. Seems pretty messed-up...
Ed Grinberg: Do you happen to have some quotes from Justice Kennedy's Obergefell majority opinion you can point to here? I couldn't find references to "animus" there, though I did see this well-known quote:
He's probably misremembering which case it was - US v. Windsor is almost certainly what he was thinking of, also authored by Kennedy. It's chock full of stuff like this:
(Not that they were so hot on the "unquestioned authority of the States" when the states *didn't* have marriage laws they liked, of course.)
Yes, that's the case I was thinking of.
It's also a Fifth/Fourteenth Amendment violation. Where's the due process?
A perfect example of the problem with “moral character” clause in CA: I am an attorney and judge, have been an attorney for over 36 years, admitted in two different states. No felonies, convictions, etc. I hold CCWs in two different states. However, when I applied for a judicial permit 6 months ago in my county, I was told that everything was fine—except I TRUTHFULLY answered that I had smoked cannabis (LEGALLY) in the last two years. I was told even though it’s legal in CA (and Washington where I used to live) this particular sheriff believed I was violating Federal law, so I was declined.
My view is the “moral character” clause is unconstitutional as the above example vests too much discretion in each sheriff.
He may actually have had a non-discretionary point. The federal form for purchasing a firearm asks a strongly related question, and if answered the same way, your firearm purchase will be denied.
Now, is there a point to having a concealed carry permit when you are not allowed to buy firearms? Ironically, the opposite question has already been decided: simple possession of a medical marijuana card, even if you have never purchased or smoked marijuana, is adequate for the feds to deny you the purchase of a firearm.
"Now, is there a point to having a concealed carry permit when you are not allowed to buy firearms?"
I believe in some states having a CCW gives you the right to carry some non-firearm weapons you'd otherwise be prohibited from carrying, such as a sword cane.