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Some Unsolicited Advice on Abortion and the Religion Clauses
The Free Exercise Clause, the Establishment Clause, and the Third-Party Harm Doctrine.
Today Politico explored various strategies that abortion-rights groups will pursue if Roe is overruled. Most of these approaches do not begin in the courts. These groups will lobby Congress and state houses for protections, and promote state constitutional amendments. Democracy in America! Moreover, we should expect some creative executive actions from the Biden administration, which will invariably end up in Court. For example, the executive branch will "interpret" old statutes in new ways that conveniently recognize abortion protections. Who knew that the Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act, which President Reagan signed into law in 1986, requires hospitals to perform certain abortions!
Still, the most intriguing strategy involves the Free Exercise of Religion. Politico spells out how this argument could work:
Attorneys are also exploring a tactic long used by the anti-abortion side — religious freedom — as a tool to fight state bans on abortion. Specifically, they're looking into mobilizing Jewish plaintiffs whose religion allows abortion and even requires it in some circumstances, such as a threat to the life of the mother.
"The Supreme Court has never ruled on the application of the free exercise clause of the First Amendment to the right to access abortion services," said Nancy Northup, president and CEO of the Center for Reproductive Rights. "And there are religions which are supportive of abortion rights, and so a free exercise claim is absolutely on the table."
The free exercise clause prohibits states from passing laws that substantially burden the ability of people to exercise their religious beliefs. Leila Abolfazli, director of federal reproductive rights at the National Women's Law Center, said such cases brought by Jewish plaintiffs could present "a profound moment for a country that has only talked about abortion in negative terms for nearly 49 years."
"Those types of cases really help people understand this is not a black-and-white issue," she said. "People come to it with incredible passion and some with incredible religious beliefs that drive them, and that's an important part that the other side has tried to dominate."
I think abortion rights advocates are especially keen on this argument because it sets up the conservative Justices as hypocrites! Conservatives have religious liberty, but liberals do not?! The Slate pitches write themselves.
Still, as someone with experience litigating religious liberty cases, I offer some unsolicited advice to my fair-weathered friends.
First, we must begin with sincerity. The federal courts will (generally) not scrutinize the specific aspects of religious doctrine. Courts will not actually decide if Judaism, or other faiths, in fact imposes some sort of religious obligation to perform or receive abortions. Nor will the courts mediate whether teachings of Reform Judaism or teachings of Orthodox Judaism are the "true" faith. But courts can scrutinize whether an individual plaintiff sincerely holds such beliefs. It is well known that during military drafts, people suddenly discover pacifist faiths like Quakerism. And during the pandemic, many people who were looking for an excuse to avoid vaccination mandates found religion. I think it will be difficult for a pregnant woman, who has never before expressed any connection to these religious teachings, to demonstrate the necessary sincerity to obtain a time-sensitive abortion. But some abortion doctors, who routinely perform these procedures, may be able to establish this showing of sincerity. Some doctors--not all doctors. Atheist doctors need not apply. Or these groups could follow the lead from the International Church of Cannabis, and form a new faith in which abortion is a sacrament. Call them Roetarians, not to be confused with Rotarians. Norma McCorvey could be the patron saint.
Second, I am intrigued by the focus on Jewish plaintiffs. Eugene's recent post focused more broadly on a religious person, in general, who "sincerely believes that he has a religious obligation (perhaps based on his view of the parable of the Good Samaritan)." In January, Professor Sherry Colb wrote about this issue from the Jewish perspective:
I even received a message from a scholar of Jewish law proposing that protecting the free exercise of Judaism might in some cases require the government to allow a woman to get an abortion. Here is the example: a woman is sick because of her pregnancy, but she is not in danger of dying. She is, however, becoming increasingly depressed because of the physical debilitation. In Jewish law, the raw material inside a woman's uterus is not a person until a designated stage of labor. Therefore, if a woman is sick and depressed because she is pregnant, she may have a religious obligation to terminate her pregnancy. With a robust protection of the free exercise of religion, couldn't this Jewish woman and her doctor obtain an exemption from a law prohibiting abortion?
For purposes of this analysis, I will presume that the Jewish doctor and Jewish woman sincerely hold these religious beliefs. And I'll presume the Free Exercise claim is successful. What remedy would a court craft? There could be an as-applied challenge: in this particular case, a state's abortion laws could not be applied to the particular doctor and patient. Still, I'm skeptical courts could move quickly enough to enter a temporary restraining order based on very difficult questions about religious doctrine. Courts have mandated fast-track procedures for judicial bypass with minor abortions, for example. But I don't think similar procedures would exist for free exercise claims. I suppose lawyers could certify a class of all Jewish patients and all Jewish doctors who share these beliefs about abortion. Due to the intricacies of faith, I think certification will be difficult. But let's assume Rule 23 works. What would that remedy look like? Only Jewish doctors can perform abortions? Only Jewish patients can receive abortions?
Third, welcome to the Establishment Clause. With these sorts of remedies, only religious people could perform and receive abortions. But non-religious doctors and patients would be out of luck. Pregnant atheists would be stuck. Generally, the government violates the Establishment Clause by granting a benefit only to religious people, but denying that same benefit to non-religious people. What, then, should the courts do? Level up or level down? Perhaps the courts could say that it would be unconstitutional to only allow religious people to perform and receive abortions, so everyone gets an abortion, regardless of faith! This argument would invoke Eisenstadt v. Baird--it violates Equal Protection to only provide contraception to married couples. Or the courts could find that a remedy only for Jewish patients and doctors would be unconstitutional, so they would deny relief for everyone on those grounds. I don't think there is that much play in the joints.
Fourth, don't forget about the third-party harms doctrine. I'm old enough to remember Justice Ginsburg's poignant Hobby Lobby dissent:
In sum, with respect to free exercise claims no less than free speech claims, "'[y]our right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins.'" Chafee, Freedom of Speech in War Time, 32 Harv. L. Rev. 932, 957 (1919).
If the draft Dobbs majority opinion holds, the Court need not resolve at what point life begins. But this opinion does defer to Mississippi's finding that the state's compelling interest to protect life begins at fifteen weeks--and presumably earlier. And, it follows, that a doctor or patient who seeks an exemption from the abortion ban will have to overcome that third-party harm to the fetus. This harm is far more clearly defined than the harm at issue in Hobby Lobby. In that case, female employees had ample alternative means to obtain certain forms of contraception. But if the abortion is performed, the harm to the fetus is unavoidable.
Plus, there is longstanding precedent on point. Indeed, Reynolds v. United States (1879) is one of the oldest Free Exercise Clause precedents. Chief Justice Morrison Waite explained:
Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship; would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband; would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?
Reynolds is even older than Jacobson v. Massachusetts, so it must be a valid and current statement of constitutional law!
Fifth, Roe and Casey were tethered to fetal development: as the fetus gets closer to term, the state's interest in protecting life would increase. But the Free Exercise Clause claim would not be premised on fetal development. Rather, the religious belief in terminating the pregnancy would exist throughout all nine months. If this argument is granted, abortion providers and women would have an even greater right to abortion that Roe and Casey permit.
Sixth, abortion rights groups should be careful what they wish for. If the Court recognizes a Free Exercise right to perform or receive an abortion, then conservatives can cook up even more aggressive religious liberty strategies. I'll bring the bagels for the next meeting of the Temple of Automatic Weapons.
These thoughts are only tentative. And I'm sure that abortion rights groups are not interested in what I have to say.
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This field can't help but make ugly law.
About 20 years ago an employee cited a newfound membership in the recently founded Church of Body Modification to demand she be allowed to wear facial piercings at work. She lost. (_Cloutier v. Costco_ in the District of Massachusetts.) I can't help thinking if an employee wanted to wear a funny hat like several more mainstream religions that would be allowed. Now that was employment discrimination law rather than constitutional law, but there's a balancing test however you look at it. If a yarmulke is allowed and human sacrifice is not, somewhere between them is a line.
The harshest abortion restrictions and outright bans are all driven by evangelicals, as is most of the pro-fetus lobby.
Wrong spot. For Joe Dallas, who doesn’t think anyone’s religion or pro-fetus person opposes abortion when the mother’s life is threatened.
Actually yes. That is the common interpretation. When the mother's life is in actual danger, it's considered medical triage. There are severe differences in interpretation about how badly the situation has to be for it to be considered necessary. However, all laws that I am aware of already have this as an exception. Even if they didn't, the standard "strictly necessary" doctrine would apply, as it's essentially never a choice between saving the mother or child. It's almost always lose the child and possibly save the mother or definitely lose both.
Therefore, the majority of this article seems to be misplaced, as it's talking about demanding an exemption that already exists.
The problem is that the abortion lobby is calling for a woman's "mental health" to be considered. So if having the baby will give her depression, then that's a medical emergency.
It's an exception that will gut the rule.
Abortions for some; miniature American flags for others!
Not all religions have a deity. Beliefs held on faith are religious in nature. For example, the vegan organic church of the carbon apocalypse fits the bill. You can see its deadly results in Sri Lanka today.
I continue to rail against the tendency to charactarize those with an ideology you disagree with of believing something supernatural.
It degrades both religion and secular ideologies for weak political owns.
It's almost like religions and politics are both giant memeplexes offering shitty cover blabber to gain followers to seize power to enrich the leaders through corruption and graft!
"Now you continue to express outrage that company's limit discs don't have a tiny enough hole and that the railing on their HQ grand staircase is 0.75 inches too low. Meanwhile I am going to go meet with them privately and maybe give the regulators a call afterwards."
No, actually, politics and religion are not giant conspiracies to fool the public.
Jesus, this is like street-corner level madness.
Others are welcome to wallow in downscale political correctness.
I call superstition superstition and a bigot a bigot. Euphemisms have no place in these contexts, at least not when public affairs are being discussed.
Competent people neither advance nor accept superstition-based assertions or arguments in reasoned debate among adults, especially with respect to public policy.
As to religion: What is madness is to privilege certain beliefs despite the fact (or even *due* to the fact) that they are held fervently and/or irrationally.
In a saner world, beliefs are just beliefs. They are evaluated and criticized on their merits. None of them deserves deference, or merits credence, beyond that which evidence and reason support.
Pretty basic stuff.
The merits of supernatural beliefs are evaluated under a fundamentally different paradigm than those that purport to be speaking of our physical world.
Long as I'm doing pet peeves, I don't much like invoking rational/irrational. I find calling something irrational is just bringing in your own priors as the baseline for what is rational 9 time out of 10.
"The merits of supernatural beliefs are evaluated under a fundamentally different paradigm than those that purport to be speaking of our physical world."
True, but this is an interesting dichotomy you've set up. Which of the two categories do moral claims fall under?
Should an assertion that supernatural religious teachings be respected in reasoned debate concerning public affairs be treated differently from an assertion involving the wisdom imparted by Senator Blutarsky, the Tooth Fairy, or Betelgeuse?
"I don't much like invoking rational/irrational. I find calling something irrational is just bringing in your own priors"
Tell it to Rev Kirkland.
The "pretty basic stuff" is the distinction between empirical vs. normative.
You can't evaluate and judge (good/bad, more desirable/less so) without underlying values; whether these values/principles/beliefs are labeled religious or secular or something else.
All moral claims are unproven in any scientific or materialist sense, and therefore are taken on faith. All of the law is premised on moral claims.
I do agree that "religion" is generally considered to mean something distinct from any moral reasoning or belief, but I think the point is that it's a distinction without much difference, or less difference fundamentally than is sometimes assumed. I think EV's recent post was along these lines. I don't agree that this observation is usually being applied selectively to "those with an ideology you disagree with," it's generally applicable.
Unproven does not mean taken on faith. All secular moral claims have some tie to real-world outcomes. Supernatural claims have no such restriction.
It is absolutely a distinction with a difference if you're life is ordered around an afterlife or this life.
All of the law is premised on moral claims.
Nonsense.
An ordered society is not a moral requirement, it is a practical one.
There are plenty of social-functional rationales to laws. Did you even take criminal law? Or have you heard of speed-limits?
"All secular moral claims have some tie to real-world outcomes."
The problem is that the real world outcomes don't in any way, shape, or form dictate the claims, without the injection of one or more extra-physical premises. The Is-Ought problem, first propounded by Hume.
So, in the end, secular moral claims are no more empirically based than religious moral claims.
The is-ought problem is real, and also based on predictions about the real world based on real world observations.
"Not all religions have a deity. Beliefs held on faith are religious in nature. "
But the best definition of "religion" might have been Tylor's late 19th century observation that religion comprised beliefs about and practices in regard to he supernatural. My sincerely held belief and faith in the sun rising tomorrow is probably not "religious" by any standard.
But, you likely hold certain beliefs that are necessitated by any scientific or materialist reason. Such beliefs may include that (1) life is valuable, (2) human life is more valuable than plant and animal and bacterial life, (3) any one human life is generally as valuable as another, such that unjustified killing should be outlawed.
...beliefs that are *not* necessitated..
You propose several beliefs that strike me as moral or ethical rather than religious. That reinforces my point that many beliefs, sincerely held, are not "religious" in nature. To suggest that "life is valuable," for example, is a perfectly good ethical belief. To assert that "life is sacred -- since all humans possess an immortal soul" is a religious belief.
They strike me as moral or ethical rather than religious, too. But, in making this distinction it seems like we are simply discussing artifacts of cultural convention and social construct, as the differences are merely semantic in some sense.
These do not need faith to be social lodestones.
All can be explained by simple social necessity.
Except that simple social necessity doesn't move the needle even a bit unless you already have a basis for preferring one outcome over another.
Imagine that panel: Button A creates a paradise on Earth. Button B ensures perpetual torture. Without preexisting moral premises, that's just interesting information that implies nothing about which button gets pressed.
Now, justify your preexisting moral premises without using preexisting moral premises. Can't be done.
I'm not sure what your example of "moral premises" has to do with religion, unless it's the common use of supernatural sanctions for behavioral guides and strictures. Surely we can imagine other reasons -- especially at Reason.com -- for those behavioral guides and strictures.
You think that sociologists have not found some fundamentals shared by all civilization? If all morality is all so much postmodernist foam, then how did that happen?
There are certain fundamentals required to survive. This is why empathy is hard-coded into the vast majority of us.
Other fundamentals are required to get to a certain level of coherence and stability to be sustainable and noticeable as a people with a culture.
Societies that think murder of their own members is cool and good don't last long.
"You think that sociologists have not found some fundamentals shared by all civilization?"
It doesn't take a sociologist to notice this obvious phenomenon, but you're absolutely right. All humans everywhere seem to have shared innate beliefs in moral principles. There are various potential explanations for this. One potential explanation is that these beliefs are genetically and biologically hardwired as you suggest, and that they were developed through the process of natural selection because they provide evolutionary advantages. Of course this theory says nothing about whether such beliefs are true, and indeed tends to undermine the probability that our beliefs or cognitive faculties can be trusted at all.
As Charles Darwin said:
"But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"
Who says that because it evolved or is useful, it cannot be a guide to the rightness of morality? You do, but you provide no support.
I guess you're arguing that without belief in god there can be no objective morality?
Because that's just intolerance dressed up as philosophy. Atheists can be moral on their own terms just fine.
"Who says that because it evolved or is useful, it cannot be a guide to the rightness of morality?"
The theory that moral beliefs are a result of a purely materialistic, evolutionary process simply provides no support for the proposition that those beliefs are true. Why would you think that it does? Provide support for your position if you can.
Furthermore, there is an argument that such a theory means the probability of humans having reliable cognitive faculties, such as that which would tend to produce more true beliefs than false ones, is low or inscrutable. The argument is stated roughly by Charles Darwin above.
"I guess you're arguing that without belief in god there can be no objective morality?"
No, I didn't make that argument. But, you are correct to observe that the alternative to the proposition that there is no objective morality, is that there is objective morality. Or, transcendental moral truth. For an atheistic perspective on such matters, see: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wgN65D52L.jpg
"Atheists can be moral on their own terms just fine."
I agree, to the extent anyone can "be moral."
What does true even mean here?
If human moral intuitions are the result of an evolutionary process, that certainly would prove they are *useful*.
That said, I have doubts. Moral intuitions have not held constant for one century, much less millenia, and different cultures do have different moral beliefs. Heck, people in the same culture have different moral beliefs. If philosophers all agreed on moral philosophy, it would be a remarkably different world. Is there really some universally shared core of beliefs that isn't just glorified self or group interest? (Meanwhile, to the extent that there are shared beliefs which aren't just an extension of self interest, it's not at all clear they are independent of each other).
"If human moral intuitions are the result of an evolutionary process, that certainly would prove they are *useful*"
To humans, yes. Just as a competing and totally contradictory set of beliefs could be useful to let's say, aliens from outer space, or just other life forms on earth.
A grounding of moral beliefs seems to be a pretty constant and very pervasive feature of humanity, regardless of the minor variations in different cultures, the apparent struggle to fully articulate or perceive these feelings or truths, and the complexity of applying principles to highly variable fact patterns. I think it takes a certain level of "higher" education to be talked out of this and lose the forest for the trees.
ML, you are begging the question requiring a meta way to test the correctness of morality.
You can't boostrap God into existence with a fallacy like that.
"All can be explained by simple social necessity."
No, it can't. "Social necessity" is just a shorthand for the beliefs I just described. The idea that certain things are socially necessary is the belief and value judgment we are talking about.
Suppose one believes that human beings ought to be considered as sort of an invasive species that should be exterminated, so that various other forms of life - which this person considers to be superior for whatever reasons - can flourish. This person has a very different idea of "social necessity" or they reject it altogether.
Societies that tolerate anti-social behavior don't do well for long.
Societies that are completely intolerant are likewise not going to perform well.
There's lots of room in between, but the idea that there are no fundamentally human ethical precepts is ignoring a shitload of social science.
The sun doesn't rise, the earth turns (rotates rather verifiably and predictably, obviating any need for belief).
Okay, so perhaps - in the spirit of conciliation - let's say it depends on the vantage point.
Perhaps my point was a little opaque, for which I apologize. I was looking for a sincerely held belief that may not be true/correct/valid, on a parallel with the Hobby Lobby sincerely held belief that IUDs are abortifacients. I can believe sincerely that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that does not render my belief "religion". The SC in the Hobby Lobby decision appeared to equate "religion" with "sincerely held belief," and I was simply suggesting that there are innumerable sincerely held beliefs that we would not consider "religion" just as there are beliefs that we would consider "religion" that we might hold in a less than firm manner.
"Attorneys are also exploring a tactic long used by the anti-abortion side — religious freedom — as a tool to fight state bans on abortion. Specifically, they're looking into mobilizing Jewish plaintiffs whose religion allows abortion and even requires it in some circumstances, such as a threat to the life of the mother."
I dont think any religion, nor any pro-life person opposes abortion to save the life of the mother.
It should be noted that with medical technology, the risk of the mother losing her life in the child bearing process is extremely rare.
13.8 per 100k in 2020 in the USA (0.0138%) vs the approx 15% of all pregancies ending in abortion
Pew Research would inidicate about 11% don't care no matter the cause -- that the answer is just "No. Never." On the swing side, it was 19% that indicate "doesn't mater when -- just get it out."
It's possible that the 11% are simply convinced by The Coach and Horses Theorem of Small Holes.
Which states that however tiny and reasonable the hole left by the legislature, judicial reasoning is sufficiently "motivated" to widen the hole enough to allow aircraft carriers through.
"doesn't mater when -- just get it out."
Doesn't "mater" mean "mother"?
Every law that I am aware of has some form of the "saving the mother's life" exemption.
That is what confuses me. Many of these arguments are useless on their face since they are demanding an exemption that is already in the existing laws.
It's politically useful to pretend that they don't.
True - almost every law with abortion limitations/restrictions have an exemption to save the life of the mother. The pro - baby death cult's version of saving the life of the mother is so expansive
"The pro - baby death cult's version of saving the life of the mother is so expansive"
You really demonstrate that attempting to have any kind of discussion with you on this subject is pointless with such a strawman.
Even if it wasn't explicitly in the abortion law, there's generic self-defense and necessity laws that would apply to *any* crime if the mother's life were in danger... right?
Pretty sure self defense requires an imminent threat of great bodily harm.
Four weeks away isn't "imminent".
Whereas an abortionist trying to kill a baby IS an "imminent threat" to an innocent human being's life.
So those laws you're citing for self defense protection would definitely support someone killing an abortionist caught in the act
It is unfortunate people must now resort to idiotic cover stories just to be free.
"I want an abortion."
"Sorry, illegal now."
"Is there anything we can do?"
"Well, are you depressed?"
"I guess a little."
"Great! Your religion requires you to get an abortion for health of the mother!"
It is my understanding atheism suffers not just First Amendment protection of freedom of speech, but also freedom of religion. This might be a rare case highlighting the difference.
"My religion allows me to have an abortion, too, as anti-abortion is a fundamentally religious process...of other religions!"
Something tells me the sides would happily swap on the iron fist of laws of general applicability.
Sigh.
Sure, (assuming Roe v. Wade gets overturned) the woman is no longer "free" to abort her unborn baby. But that baby is now free to live!
How much of your "thinking" on this issue derives from superstition, Ed Grinberg?
The pretense that a genetically human growing baby is not "alive" because it's currently dependent upon it's mother's body?
That is "thinking" totally deserving of the air quotes.
It might be superstition, it might be delusion.
What it most certainly is NOT is science
If the baby can live without the mother, let it be free to do so. No slavery.
So, humans can be killed until they're 5 or 10 years old? Seems radical to me.
Why does that entitle the mother to an abortion? Involuntary commitment is a time-honored solution to depression.
Technically don't need a "new" religion, just reviving the worship of Moloch and child sacrifice? "Abortion as a sacrament"? Really? Anyone see anything wrong with this picture?
There are manys gods outraged we don't sacrifice humans to them anymore.
Animals might be a good test case though.
And the modern woke, faced with the sacrifice of a virgin, would be more upset at the sexist ancient cultural stereotype of a young lady as pure and innocent, and needing protection of that purity, and the implications of it being a property controlled by anyone save herself, than the sacrifice itself.
“First, we must begin with sincerity.”
No he didn’t, y’all. No he didn’t…
He did.
Well, you sure didn't (begin with sincerity).
Yep, you still have the wit of a fence post.
And you’re wrong, naturally. I sincerely believe Josh Blackman is full of shit and that he maybe believes half of the nonsense he writes here. But that he really believes the other half.
With regard to time sensitivity. It occurs to me that a Jewish woman and a Jewish doctor could simply go ahead and perform the abortion in the doctors office and then if arrested plead not guilty and fight in criminal court. Some locations would likely be sympathetic to such a plea, for example the DA might refuse to prosecute or might start a test case on appeal and it wouldn't involve seeking permission.
I think I recall one Dr. in Texas announcing he had preformed an abortion in violation of the Texas law, basically inviting anyone to sue him (or her). I haven't heard any one filing suit.
>might start a test case on appeal
It may even be a collusive lawsuit (i.e., the police, DA, the mother, and the doctor all working together to create a test case). IIRC, Lawrence v. Texas was a real-world example of this strategy.
Arguably, so was Masterpiece Cakeshop.
Basically ALL the abortion cases were collusive lawsuits, though in some of them the nominal plaintiff/defendant might have been kept in the dark about it.
Collusive lawsuits are almost the rule rather than the exception, where big issues end up before the Court. Ideal test cases don't manufacture themselves, you know.
3 anypersons accepted San Antonio abortion doc Alan Braid's invitation to sue him on the orchestrated abortion test case in Texas courts. Abortion doc Braid, with 12 lawyers, then pulled a switch-and-bait, and countersued the 3 in a different state. The case is now in the summary-judgment phase.
Docket here: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60626475/braid-v-stilley/
Felipe N. Gomez nonsuited his first case against Braid in San Antonio, TX; then refiled a second one when the "good doctor" wouldn't settle with him and federal judge wouldn't let him get out of Braid's countersuit in Chicago, seeking a declaratory judgment that S.B.8 is unconstitutional on highly dubious federal statutory interpleader diversity jurisdiction ground. Min. amount in controversy: $500. Gomez didn't even ask for $500, not to mention $10,000, in any statutory damages, but himself sought invalidation of S.B.8 in state court under the Texas Declaratory Judgments Act. -- Go figure.
Good God - do they REALLY want to make Judaism the Religion of Baby-Killers again? Someone needs to pass these ideas past a good PR firm.
The rhetoritician in me is in awe.
3d Chess. Lefty Anti-Semites get to push for abortion while blaming the Jews at the same time.
Win win?
Needless to say, none of this has anything to do with "baby-killing."
I don’t think that it is going to be that easy. Probably all a state would need to do to forestall abortions would be to essentially establish personhood in the fetus/baby at, say, 12 weeks. Then, the mother’s religious desires for an abortion would presumably not override the baby’s for life. There are religions out there where child murder was auctioned, or at least allowed, esp by the father. How about King Solomon splitting the baby? Yet killing babies in the name of religion is still treated as murder, regardless of Free Exercise claims.
Oh for Pete's sake.
Repeat after me: Solomon did not split the baby.
Nor did he intend to.
It was a bluff, intended to smoke out the real mother. It worked and the baby lived.
Indeed, some commentators argue that Solomon knew who the real mother was all along, and if his trick hadn't worked he would have tried something else.
Why would he do this? Because he was a new king, and it was hardly clear that he was the rightful successor of David. So he pulled a PR stunt to gain legitimacy and a reputation for wisdom, and it worked.
The story tells us that the word of his cleverness spread far and wide.
I am confused. Isn't that the entire point of the story? Besides, he was the king and could order anyone beheaded at any time because that's what Bronze Age kings could do. It's completely non-applicable to this discussion.
I am continuously amazed at people who call themselves Jewish or Christian and don't know the faintest bit about what they claim to believe.
Just to clarify. I'm agreeing with you, Bernard. I'm confused how people could reference Solomon and not know that it was a trick.
I agree — but I also have encountered many people engaged in negotiations over the years who suggest, in all sincerity, that the parties compromise: "Let's split the baby."
And I'm like, um, you aren't getting the point of that story.
Soloman's reign is generally agreed to be around 950 BC, which puts him pretty squarely in the Iron Age. Your point about his power as king still holds, though.
Solomon did the best he could with the truth-seeking tools then available. It wasn't a trick; nor a ruse. It was testing for a true mother's love and character.
Now we have maternity testing.
Sorry my mention of Solomon was that controversial. I knew that he was, essentially, running a bluff. I was trying to get at that infanticide was somewhat better accepted historically. Maybe Abraham getting ready to sacrifice his son Isaac might have been a better example.
Maybe another example of the cheapness of human life of children in this country was the widespread selling of children into servitude up into the 19th century. In the case of New England cotton mills, and the like, many of the kids died. So, death wasn’t certain when little kids were indentured, but in many cases, it was more often than not.
"People come to it with . . . incredible religious beliefs"
They keep using that word.
I do not think it means what they think it means.
Human sacrifice isn't covered by religious freedom. Pretty sure we've already had court rulings on this.
Good thing we're not discussing human sacrifice.
Pretty sure we've already had court rulings on this.
Well, you choose to deny an unborn baby the status of "human." Other people -- lots of them -- disagree.
Do all those other people also not understand the difference between religious sacrifice and medical procedures?
When has "my religion compels me to get this medical procedure" ever won in court?
Wouldn't be the issue. The issue would be my religion compels me to provide this medical service to someone who needs it.
No, the article also explicitly talked about a woman making the religious freedom claim for a right to get an abortion.
So when has that argument ever won in court?
In religion, one adheres to a set of beliefs, rituals, and rules. Shouldn't those be attested to in a writing or by a religious leader? Otherwise, all individual preferences may be called religious.
All mainstream religions support vaccinations, in writing and in belief. So a member may not claim religion as a basis to refuse vaccination.
Thomas v. Review Board (1981) established that religious belief may be purely personal with no confirmation by a religious leader.
That is another denial of reality by the lawyer profession.
"I'll bring the bagels for the next meeting of the Temple of Automatic Weapons."
Mormons.
Please bring a few knish. It's been rather hard to find a good knish.
"a member may not claim religion as a basis to refuse vaccination."
Was the vaccine developed or manufactured with tissue derived from an aborted human fetus?
No
The whole "while Jews permit abortions at basically any stage as a matter of religious doctrine so we have to have it..." is a bizarre one at least in using it as some sort of lead justification for the public policy argument. And if you wanted people with some preconceived notions of this type of person to have that validated seems like this will accomplish that goal quite well.
“. Some doctors--not all doctors. Atheist doctors need not apply. ”
Atheism is indeed a sincerely held belief system, and within that paradigm, one can rationally hold many possible positions on when life begins, and how to balance the interest of the competing parties individual interests.
"positions on when life begins"
That is a biological question. Easily answerable for nearly all species.
"When personhood begins"
That is a political and legal question defined by the society, not by individual preference
"positions on when life begins"
That is a biological question. Easily answerable for nearly all species.
I'm guessing you haven't tried running this past any actual biologists.
I am guessing that you don't understand biology. Even at the cellular level we know if the chemical amalgam is alive.
One fertilized egg is dividing and growing it fulfills all criteria for life.
The sperm and egg are both 'alive' in the same sense before fertilization too. Just being 'alive' isn't doing any useful work here.
My problem isn't that I don't understand biology, it's that I understand it better than you do.
No, you don't understand biology, and you just proved it.
The lifecycle of any mammal begins at conception. This is a basic fact of biology. To deny it is to deny science.
Vague "what ifs" and appeals to ignorance (which reveal your own) do not change that fact.
Look, there's never a point at which there isn't a live cell, because otherwise there'd be no progeny at all. It's continuous live cells from a person's birth to the birth of their child to the birth of their grandchild, and etc.... Life never 'starts' (except one time ~4 billion years ago), it's a continuous process. The process of forming a new organism is precisely that, a process. There's no single point at which there's definitely a new organism in any non-single cell organism.
But engage with the conundrum of totipotent cells: at the moment of fertilization, how many human lives is it?
Unbeknownst (and unknowable) at the time, the pregnancy results in identical twins. When did the second one start? If life "begins" at conception, was the fertilized (one cell) egg actually two lives? Is it the beginning of life, but the number is subject to some sort of Schroedinger's Cat-like indeterminacy? This isn't an appeal to factual ignorance, it's literally unknowable how many children will ultimately result.
I would posit that, de minimis, you cannot say there's a new 'separate' organism until you're certain how many new separate organisms there are going to be, because 'a life began, or maybe two, or three, or more' is nonsense. When there isn't even a second cell yet, there can't possibly be two new organisms, yet identical twins happen with some frequency. (This is a minimal claim, not a claim of where the 'line' actually is, because I don't think there is a single identifiable line).
(And fwiw, you can manipulate a blastocyst to separate and produce twins or triplets or however many identical children you want in a lab.)
(And to avoid the inevitable stupid claim: by no single point I mean there's no one single instant in time that you can call the transition from one organism to two. At some point there's definitely two. At some point earlier there was definitely one. And between those points is a process).
And you've shifted the goalposts again from "living human" to "live cell" which is an entirely different thing.
According to your argument, there is no such thing as a single-celled life form. Multicellular lifeforms with non-differentiated cells also don't exist. Creatures like worms, where cells can de-differentiate, also are not alive.
That's silly.
The basic answer to your question is that you don't know what will happen to the human life that began at conception in the future. It might split and produce twins. It might split then absorb the second twin. It might be cloned by a scientist. The number of lives can change based on future events. But we don't care about specific individuals and their events when talking about the science of biology.
Otherwise you get into the absurd circumstance where you, right now, are not a living human because you might be cloned, thus changing the number of lives your cells produced.
Trying to pretend that there is some unknowable future, therefore there is no present is dumb.
The human life - like all mammals - begins at conception. The fact that you can create more lives from that in the future does not change the facts of the present.
Here's something to wrap your head around: At the blastocyst stage, the cells are totipotent. Each can develop into an embryo on its own (which is of course how you get identical twins, because the blastocyst becomes divided and produces multiple embryos). Are each of those totipotent cells, then, a separate human life?
So, fertilization has just occurred, but implantation hasn't happened yet. You think 'life has started' (whatever that actually means) - how many human lives is it? I mean, if it's human life, you should be able to say with certainty how many it is, right?
Abortion based on Jewish law? I can't wait to see the massive revision of the left's anti-Semitism. POOF!!!! Just like that Israel ceases to be a fascist, apartheid State.
Sincerity???? That is even more unlikely than abortion being discussed a a calm, rational manner by either side.
Many Jews reject Israel's immoral, vicious right-wing belligerence.
The better ones, mostly.
Some Jews assisted in the Holocaust - like your buddy Soros. Is that the kind of "betters" you choose to identify with?
An anti-semitic lie. He did no such thing.
In his own book he admits to turning in Jewish neighbors to the Nazis.
Soros was born in 1930; the Holocaust ended in 1945. Tell us what a 15-year-old George Soros did to assist the Holocaust?
"mobilizing Jewish plaintiffs whose religion allows abortion"
And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
— Leviticus 18:21
That passage would be on point if Molech had anything to do with this conversation.
The Torah has instructions on abortion, though it’s only supposed to work if the wife had been unfaithful. See Numbers 5:11-31
what??? no such thing.
Only an originalist could interpret that passage as instructions on abortion.
The Congregation Of Exalted Reason could become invaluable in this context -- many persons are able to establish a lifelong (well, after the age of 12 or so, when childhood indoctrination and gullibility fade as excuses) exaltation of reason.
I don't think the fact that Judaism permits something is helpful, because that's the not the question. The question is whether religious belief requires something.
So, never mind Judaism, I'm a humanist, which the conservative religious have insisted for years is a religion. My humanism requires me to come to the aid of anyone I can help, including a pregnant woman seeking to end her pregnancy, unless there is a specific fact-bound reason why I should not. So, suppose I'm a doctor. Doesn't my religious obligation to help her require me to perform an abortion?
And I don't think that's gotten around by declaring the fetus to be a person because that, too, is a religious belief, so we're talking here about competing religious beliefs.
AFAIK, the Courts will give full credit to your humanistic beliefs. But, the analysis doesn't stop there. The Court is also likely to full credit the State's contention that: (i) protecting babies is a compelling interest; and (ii) that banning abortion is the least restrictive means to keep people from killing babies. The result is no accomodation under RFRA.
That said, Congress can change RFRA anytime it wants.
Replacing the Hyde Amendment (ban on use of federal funds for most abortions) with law allowing Medicaid-funded abortions would be easier. It would also appeal to two groups who have been in the news recently. Darker skinned people are poorer on average and more likely to be on public assistance and have trouble paying for travel to an abortion-friendly state.
One group says abortion restrictions are racist, and will be pleased that pregnant black women can get the abortions they want. The other group says there is a conspiracy to replace true Americans with darker-skinned invaders, and they will be pleased that the federal government is paying to cull the invaders.
Personhood of the fetus can certainly be determined as a matter of law without invoking religious belief.
The personhood of one identified as dead by criteria of brain death is legally declared to be absent by the state. Just as surely that the state can and must clearly identify the end of life, the state may, without resort to religion, identify the beginning of life.
Curmudgeon, and Gasman, the problem, though, is that the scientists are mostly aligned that a fetus is not a person, at least not until viability. So I don't see how one arrives at the position that it is a person without invoking, if not religion, certainly one's philosophy of life. So then we have a question of competing beliefs, and the government may not prefer one over the other.
I suspect the political reality is that the current anti-abortion Supreme Court will do whatever gymnastics it has to in order to make abortion illegal. But I don't see how they do so consistent with the RFRA as its currently written.
Because the Courts will accept the State's assertion, just like they'll accept your assertion about your religious beliefs. RFRA cases all boil down to the 'least restrictive means' prong.
>scientists are mostly aligned that a fetus is not a person,
:fake edit (this website's advertising refreshes are very aggressive)
>scientists are mostly aligned that a fetus is not a person,
Relevance? It's not a scientific question.
So what type of question is it then?
An ethical one.
Moral and/or legal, depending on the context it's being made.
It may be informed by facts developed using science, but it's not a question you can answer via the 'scientific process' (e.g., if we decide a nervous system matters, then 'science' can determine when the nervous system develops. But, science can't answer whether or not the presence of a nervous system should matter).
Ok, but here's the thing: To say that something is a person is to say that it is the basic unit of biology. Morality and legality may have opinions on the subject, but the bottom line here is that persons are protected because they are the basic unit of biology.
Note: I'm aware that some biologists think an individual and its biome should be the basic unit since you can't survive without the billions of bacteria in your gut, and that's an interesting concept, but for purposes of this discussion, the basic unit is the individual.
So personhood really is a biological question. And is also the answer to whether the fetus is entitled to protection.
>persons are protected because they are the basic unit of biology.
Classic begging the question fallacy.
FWIW, it's probably also not dispositive. We protect lots of things that aren't "persons" (e.g., I can't abuse my dog, I can't eat eagle eggs). We even protect many things that clearly aren't even alive (e.g., "historic" buildings).
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there isn't a "scientific" answer here.
It's not begging the question. Begging the question would be either "They're the basic unit of biology because they're the basic unit of biology" or "We protect it because we protect it."
And the issue is whether fetuses are protected, not whether dogs and historic buildings are protected. There are different reasons to protect dogs than there are to protect persons.
"scientists are mostly aligned that a fetus is not a person,"
The opinion of scientists is irrelevant.
The matter is a question of politics and law. Period.
"Person" isn't the issue, "Human" is.
The fetus is a human, science agrees.
No, "human" can't be the issue, because if it were, then cancerous tumors would have the right to life too. They're human life.
The question is whether it's a person.
"cancerous tumors " are not human life, don't be stupid. They are a diseased part of a human.
A "cancerous tumor" will never, never become a human.
Ah, so you concede the fetus is merely "becoming" human.
I concede no such thing. A fetus is human.
If not, what is it? Snake, frog, bird, rabbit?
See mad kalak's explanation below of the fallacy of composition.
So today, you've engaged in two fallacies: Composition and no true Scotsman. Maybe you can go for a third to set a record.
He's saying you are engaged in the fallacy of composition, not me.
You are usually not this dumb. Lack of sleep?
What he said applies equally as well to your argument that a fetus is human. No, it has human tissue -- no one disputes its species -- but having human tissue, and being human, are not the same thing. Try to keep up.
"it has human tissue -- no one disputes its species -- but having human tissue, and being human, are not the same thing."
It has the complete DNA sequence of a human. So human.
"The zygote contains the combined genetic material carried by both the male and female gametes which consists of the 23 chromosomes from the nucleus of the ovum and the 23 chromosomes from the nucleus of the sperm." Human embryonic development. wikipedia
"Try to keep up."
Take your own advice.
Cancerous tumors also have the complete DNA sequence of a human. Each human cell has the complete DNA sequence of a human. You are totally out of your depth.
Besides which, if the issue is protecting that which is becoming human, don't you also want to protect sperm by making masturbation a felony?
"if the issue is protecting that which is becoming human,"
Its not the issue. Its human already.
"don't you also want to protect sperm by making masturbation a felony?"
Get new material.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
Baby = cancer.
In 2022, in the age of reason and science, I'm surprised we have people who are still so ignorant and stupid.
Who said baby = cancer? Not me.
Indeed, Bob.
But being human does not make the being a legal person.
Careful with legal persons. Corporations are legal persons too.
Why would scientists, as opposed to anyone else, not possibly ascribe personhood to an unborn.
The just born person exhibits awareness, interaction, and temperament. Nothing logically leads one to believe that such did not exist the day prior.
Similar reduction one day at a time going backward eventually collides with the same train of reasoning proceeding antegrade from the undifferentiated ball of cells at day two post conception.
The life-begins-at-conception idea is a religious belief. Life begining at birth is similarly forced and illogical, and a self deluding belief.
Life likely begins somewhere between in between: all that remains is to achieve civil debate and the acknowlegememt that the line will move as understanding of neuroscience advances.
Choose reason. Every time.
Choose reason. Every time. Especially over sacred ignorance and dogmatic intolerance.
Choose reason. Every time. Most especially if you are older than 12 or so. By then, childhood indoctrination fades as an excuse for gullibility, ignorance, backwardness, and faith-based bigotry. By adulthood -- this includes ostensible adulthood -- it is no excuse.
Choose reason. Every time. And science, modernity, education, tolerance, progress, inclusiveness, and the reality-based world. Avoid superstition, ignorance, bigotry, dogma, backwardness, insularity, and pining for good old days that never existed. Not 75 years ago. Not 175 years ago. Not 2,000 years ago. Never.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
Thank you.
(This message provided by the Congregation Of Exalted Reason)
What is the logic and reason for having people like you around? I'm not really seeing any.....
If you prefer your Republican wingnuttery unleavened by liberal-libertarian mainstream content, ask the proprietor to censor or even ban a commenter for making fun of and criticizing conservatives. He has done it before. Perhaps he would do it again . . . for you!
JtD, I would've thought you'd be happy that we're making it easy for you to identify people you'll be shooting when the time comes.
I hereby enter my objection to the statement that Judaism permits abortion. Judaism prohibits abortion except in life-threatening circumstances. [The first forty days post-conception are far more lenient]. Would one say that the US permits murder because one is allowed to kill an attacker to save human life?
Depression is a gray area, and there are [a very few] authorities who will consider that a life-threatening situation. Each case would require an individual determination, usually by the greatest of authorities.
A Jewish physician or nurse would be required to refuse to participate in an elective abortion even at the cost of losing their jobs.
Normative Jewish law considers abortion to be non-capital murder.
I speak, of course, of the Jewish law that has been continuous and consistent for thousands of years. Of "enlightened judaism", I cannot speak, any more than I can speak for the Pope.
These are "Reform" Jews and "Reform" leaning Conservative Jews. Mainly about as Jewish as my cat.
Is your cat circumcised? And I see No True Scotsman is the fallacy you're going with today.
She's a girl so no. Meow.
Do Reform Jews still believe in circumcision?
Believe in it? Hell, they've seen it done.
Bob,
Who the hell are you to determine who is or is not Jewish?
You seem to be saying the cats cannot be Jewish. Who are you to determine that? As Professor Volokh points out in his Tablet article cited yesterday, "It's complicated." And you can't spell "complicated" without "cat".
And as one who didn't used to hate cats until I married someone who has had up to eight of them at a time, I will also point out that every catastrophe begins with cat.
Also that cats prove that intelligent design isn't true since no intelligence would have designed them.
And every time I see a cat I feel terrible because I know that some poor coyote is missing his dinner.
Or, as Dorothy Parker wrote:
If I had a shiny gun
I could have a world of fun
Speeding bullets through the brains
Of the cats who give me pains.
Or, had I some poison gas
I could make the moments pass
Bumping off a number of
Kitties that I do not love.
Alas, I have no lethal weapon
Thus doth fate our pleasure step on
So they are alive and well
Who should yowl and hiss in hell.
Wow, tell us how you *really* feel.
"You seem to be saying the cats cannot be Jewish. Who are you to determine that?"
Your witticism is only half-witty.
Not a witticism. You have to admit that there are criteria for "being Jewish" or indeed a cat can be Jewish. Or a paramecium. If legal rights are granted to animals, as is currently being attempted in the court system, then why not?
Unless you claim that there are preexisting criteria that must be honored. There are also preexisting criteria regarding being Jewish that must be honored, and they have existed for thousands of years.
Yes you can (do without can): "kompliziert" . Entirely cat free.
Or just say "shver"
Gern geschehen! Nito farvos tsu danken!
For those interested in actual sources, see the comprehensive review "Abortion in Halachic Literature", chapter XV, in Contemporary Halachic Problems, Vol I, by Rabbi J. David Bleich [1977]. The most lenient sources he cites do not approach the libel that Judaism [generally] allows abortion. As for the credentials of Rabbi Bleich, they are available on Wikipedia.
"Depression is a gray area, and there are [a very few] authorities who will consider that a life-threatening situation."
'Let me destroy this fetus or I might---might---kill myself, or refuse to care for myself such that my life would be in peril.' For a person given responsibility for teaching any mainstream faith, getting the faithful to obey that teaching would be tough, but putting the point to her would not.
The investigation into the factors involved in an abortion decision are on a par with those involved in the medical treatment of life-threatening disease, at the least [although, these days, with the caveat that they are far more grounded in honesty]. There would be many professional opinions involved, including medical, psychological, and of course halachic. No "I'm feeling depressed because I might get stretch marks." Or, "I might have problems finding a boyfriend."
We know that a fetus is not human in Jewish law, e.g.,
1. According to the Torah, if a man cause a woman to miscarry, he owes a civil fine to her husband. There is no charge of manslaughter.
2. According to Mishnah Arakhin, a pregnant woman due to be executed can be executed up the point that she is in labour.
For an extensive discussion of the two issues you raise, see Bleich, pp 332-337. But to be clear, there is no concept of "manslaughter" in Jewish halacha, although there is the concept of negligent murder. And the concept of non-capital murder, the punishment for which is not in the hands of human courts.
Any chance this Bleich is a right-winger? A clinger? A conservative Republican?
He is highly intelligent, extremely knowledgeable, sincerely and deeply religious, a Talmudic scholar and dean of advanced halachic studies at Yeshiva University, a PhD and a law professor. So, the chances are very good indeed.
If you want to open that can of worms, then RFRA, or at least many of its applications, is in trouble. Ditto if you want to consider third-party harms determinative.
Employment Division v. Smith is the way to prevent the Free Exercise wars.
This seems right. Or, at least, Employment Div. v. Smith would prevent most of the arguments regarding religious freedom from getting off the ground with respect to state laws. Have the liberal groups proposing these tactics said that they intend to seek the overturning of Smith?
IDK. It's worth remembering that Employment Division v. Smith was nearly unanimously overturned (435-0, 97-3) by Congress.
“These groups will lobby Congress and state houses for protections, and promote state constitutional amendments. Democracy in America! “
Nope. The Editorial staff of the Washington Post guarantees that reversal of Roe will in fact end democracy in America.
I'm not seeing the leap from Jewish law allowing an abortion and Jewish law requiring an abortion.
And it would not be at all difficult for the state to show that they have a rational basis for uniformly applying an abortion law across all faiths.
This whole thing seems like the type of idea an abortion advocate would cook up after not having to seriously defend their position for the last 50 years.
The philosophy I hear most often from Jews is that there are enough people trying to wipe out the Jewish religion, they shouldn't help them.
The argument starts with a general proposition that when there is a danger to the woman’s life. not only is the general prohibition on abortion overridden but a duty to have one to save the woman’s life comes into effect.
It then interprets what constitutes a danger to the woman’s life pretty much as broadly and leniently as possible. Depressed women, from this position, are in danger of committing suicide. Especially pregnant depressed women. They have no self-control. Hormones and all that.
See my comment below.
It seems that Josh believes that only those with a delusional belief in an imaginary sky-daddy are protected by the free exercise and establishment clauses.
Of course, none of that really ought to matter in the abortion context, because requiring a woman to serve as an unwilling incubator for an unwanted fetus is clearly involuntary servitude banned under the Thirteenth Amendment.
"clearly"
A tell of a BS argument.
It's not slavery in a constitutional law sense to make parents care for children.
That’s pretty much what the law says. Like it or not, the religion clauses are in the Constitution, whether what they protect is delusional or not.
Servitude means being subject to another person's wants or needs. As you thus concede that the unborn fetus is a person, killing it would be murder.
Plus, most abortions are for a voluntary pregnancy.
I am unaware that, anywhere in the US, in any court, freedom of religion has ever been interpreted to mean "if your religion permits X, freedom of religion gives you a right to do X".
There are cases where someone's religion *requires* them to do X, that are covered by freedom of religion, but not when their religion just *permits* X. Saying that you have a right to an abortion because your religion permits it is like saying that you have a right to open a grocery store, regardless of the zoning laws, because your religion permits opening a grocery store.
This is correct. For instance “Although it’s not taught anywhere, I sincerely believe my religion requires me to discriminate against people I think are gross or inferior” is constitutionally protected. Whereas “My religion allows for abortion and even goes so far to outline the procedure in our text” is unprotected speech.
I didn't say anything about unprotected speech.
Also, if I say I don't know any examples of X, you can't disprove that with an example of not-X. An example of prohibited discrimination doesn't disprove "there aren't examples where this is permitted".
The problem is a claim “my religion compels X.” That’s the problem we’re talking about here. See my comment below. It’s a real issue.
I’m a Mandalorian- weapons are part of my religion.
>Equal Protection
FWIW, we've lived with similar issues for decades. For example, only(!) native americans are allowed to possess eagle feathers.
Language is disintegrating before our very eyes. The idea that there is a lot, if not most, human understanding & knowledge that cannot be expressed in words that people make up, really pisses a lot of y'all off. Kirkegaard spent his entire life's work to find God in words. And, of course, failed. All of our understanding, no matter how many words you throw at it; is subjective. It is entirely in our minds. God does have a corporeal existence. It is called reality. It is simply beyond human understanding.
Individual religious people & their churches are usually all about spiritual community. Religions, on the other hand, are almost entirely about power. And like many of the present company, take their attachment to their words way too seriously.
Personally, I think the words "God", "the Holy Spirit", "the Tao" AND "objective reality" all refer to the same mystery & presence. Everybody knows what's real, right?
The anti-abortion legal position is built on the foundation that the state & the government have a legitimate reason to prevent abortion to protect the unborn human life. The position that a woman's role in society is to bear & raise her man's children is ancient. And that women were supposed to be under the protection & control of their husbands or fathers has been both law & hard convention throughout history is very obvious. Many of us had really hoped we were moving past that. The proposition that all conceptions should morally be taken to full term by law is absurd. And yet another case of unexamined ideology being over empowered & causing real grief. The history of bans & laws against abortion has a long, detailed, ugly, & abusive record. It's called the Catholic Church. There is one person who has a legitimate right & say about whether she brings a new person into the world. Whatever anyone else thinks. That pregnancy is hers. It doesn't belong to the community or the state. Until a baby is born, and "comes into the world", it should take very strictly & limited circumstance to interfere with her reproductive & life choices. We can clearly see what a gawd-awful mess has been made of trying make laws about the mysteries of life. Roe v. Wade is bad law for all of the well discussed reasons. Samuel Alito's draft is pure, angry misogyny dressed up in robes & a powdered wig.
True. But is it the same kind of pure, unadulterated hate as the pure, unadulterated misaustralism that abolitionists obviously had for Southerners? Or is it a different kind of hate? From an outsider looking disinterestedly at the rhetoric used by people with a vested interest in believing that their opponents could have no possible rational interest in objecting to what they want to do, the two frankly look pretty darn similar.
The Catholic Church, after all, also objected to people’s right to control their private prowrty as they pleased. Not just the same abusive record, but the same rationale for the abuse. “Not a mere chattel. He bears the impress of his Maker, and is festined for an endless existence.”
Same bullshit! Exactly the same abusive bullshit! So if the Church needs to be called on its abusive bullshit this time, surely it ought to be called on the previous time it spouted the exact same abusive bullshit, against what all right-thinking and progressive people know is true?
Remember why John Calhoun became a Unitarian! The traditional churches spouted too much abusive bullshit. He needed something more progressive.
It’s a real issue. In Israel, abortion, like marriage, divorce, and other family matters, is in the hands of the religious courts. But the religious courts nearly always allow it. A woman just has to recite a formula that she feels depressed or something like that, and she gets permission, and off she goes. So there isn’t much challenge to the system, as there is for matters like marriage, divorce, and conversion, where the religious courts often pose real rather than purely brief and ceremonial obstacles to what secular people want to do. Religious people get to feel in control, and secular people do what they want with only a small amount of lip service and ceremony required.
Since you have a whole country including some otherwise very conservative religious people that operates this way, it shouldn’t be difficult to find somebody who can convince a judge she sincerely believes in it. Nor should it be difficult to find a rabbi who can back it up that it’s as a real thing.
That still seems like a case of "my religion says I should be able to do this", not "my religion mandates I do this". The former doesn't cover the privilege to do the thing.
The first piece of the position is the idea that there is a general prohibition against abortion, but if the woman’s life is endangered not only is the prohibition overridden but saving the woman’s life takes precedence and the abortion is not merely permitted but mandated. That piece is common enough.
The second piece of the argument is a view of what constitutes a danger which is extremely broad and lenient. If a depressed pregnant woman might be in danger of committing suicide, you have to relieve the depression to get rid of the danger to the woman’s life. It’s not merely permitted. It’s obligated.
That’s the argument.
And it has a basis. It’s based on an earlier opinion emphasizing that pregnancy involves special leniencies to the point that you can give a pregnant woman pork, even on Yom Kippur, if she craves it, suggesting that solicitousness to pregnancy related cravings trumps even fairly strong ordinary rules. If you regard abortion as, while wrong, more analogous to eating pork on Yom Kippur than to murder, then it’s at least an arguable rational result from the precedents.
Here’s the citation. The discussion of pregnant woman is in the 8th paragraph. The discussion of pork is on the 9th. That’s the basis for the whole thing.
https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.82a?ven=William_Davidson_Edition_-_English&vhe=William_Davidson_Edition_-_Vocalized_Aramaic&lang=bi
Seriously, you're going to single out the Jews as distinctively in favor of abortion?
Do Jews have higher abortion rates than gentiles?
In Jewish law, the raw material inside a woman's uterus is not a person until a designated stage of labor. Therefore, if a woman is sick and depressed because she is pregnant, she may have a religious obligation to terminate her pregnancy.
Cool, well in my new religion, an individual is not a person until they understand that the US Constitution is a written document, not a living one. We can go on from there.
You want to make human sacrifice "religiously protected"? Go for it.
Otherwise, your religion doesn't get to define what qualifies as a "human life".
Alternative: your religion gets to define what is a "human life", and so does mine.
Mine says that baby you're trying to abort is a human being, that what you're doing is therefore murder, and that since under "self defense" laws I have the right to use deadly force to protect another person's life, it's my religious duty to go into abortion clinics and kill anyone trying to do an abortion.
Pretty sure that I also have a right to shoot anyone trying to block me from getting to that abortionist in time to stop the murder.
You want to play games? We can play games
Thank you, mad kalak, for explaining why the fetus isn't a person, even though it contains human cells.
A newborn is viable, which is where I am inclined to draw the line.
And containing the necessary ingredients isn't enough; try making a chicken salad using only eggs.
No, it's not solipsism. Where I draw the line isn't determinative; I was merely responding to your implication that the issue is whether it has a conscience. I've never heard anyone use that argument before, but whatever, it's not my position.
Cancer cells are human; they're just not persons.
And the question with premature babies is this: Would it be murder to allow them to die. And whatever the moral implications may be, legally I think the answer to that question is no as well. There is no legal duty to save someone else's life, whether or not it's a person.
Which I think is also fatal to your abortion views. Even if it were to be conceded that the fetus is a human person, the woman carrying it is under no obligation to save its life.
I am not dictator for life -- and it's probably a good thing too -- but I'm as entitled to draw a line as anyone else, particularly when I've articulated a rationale for it.
And no, it's not the fallacy of composition to say that cancer cells are human, but not human beings. They possess some, but not all, of the requirements for being a human being.
Eh, is it really a pizza before its baked?
A cake isn't a cake before its baked. It's just batter.
A souffle isn't a souffle before it's risen.
Just having all the ingredients isn't enough.
No.
The virus was sequenced. An mRNA molecule was developed to induce the ribosomes of a cell to produce antiboides to it. The Covid vaccines were incubated in computers.
Fetal stem cells were used in their development and/or testing, though. Every source I can find says so.