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A Different Sort of "Don't Say Gay"
A public school banned a "homosexuality is a sin" T-shirt on the grounds that it mentions "sex."
From today's decision by Judge Waverly D. Crenshaw, Jr. (M.D. Tenn.) in B.A.P. v. Overton County Bd. of Ed.:
When B.A.P. arrived in Henson's classroom on August 25, 2020, she was wearing a shirt stating, "homosexuality is a sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10." This shirt "express[ed] [B.A.P.'s] political viewpoint founded upon her religious beliefs," including her belief "in the Biblical mandate to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Henson told B.A.P. to report to the principal's office, and she complied. Principal Melton read from the school handbook and told B.A.P. that her shirt violated the dress code because it was "sexually connotative." … Melton told B.A.P. that she would not be released from the office unless she changed her shirt. Melton then instructed B.A.P. to call her parents and request a change of clothing …. B.A.P.'s father, Richard Penkoski, … asked Melton for clarification on his interpretation of the dress code. Melton read from the dress code and clarified that B.A.P.'s shirt might be sexually connotative because the word "homosexuality" on her shirt included the word "sex." Melton told Penkoski that B.A.P. would be forced to go home if she did not change her shirt, and the call ended. B.A.P.'s stepmother came to the school and took her home, and B.A.P. was marked "absent" for the day. "At all material times," Melton and Henson demanded that B.A.P. not wear the shirt to school again.
Plaintiffs maintain that B.A.P.'s shirt was consistent with an established practice of openly acknowledging issues of sexuality in the classroom setting. Specifically, Henson's classroom displayed what appears to be a standard 8.5x11 piece of printer paper affixed to a cabinet near the corner bearing the colors of the rainbow and the words, "diverse, inclusive, accepting, welcoming, safe space, for everyone." Plaintiffs characterize this image as "pro-homosexual." …
In Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. School Dist. (1969), the Supreme Court explained that schools may regulate student speech that "materially disrupts classwork or involves substantial disorder or invasion of the rights of others." {B.A.P.'s shirt did not display "'indecent,' 'lewd,' or 'vulgar' speech," as contemplated by Bethel School District No. 403 v. Fraser (1986).} … Tinker presents a "difficult question: how to balance some students' rights to free speech with 'the rights of other students to be secure and to be let alone.'" {The Tennessee legislature recognizes that "[a] safe and civil environment is necessary for students to learn and achieve high academic standards," and that "[h]arassment, intimidation, bullying or cyber-bullying, like other disruptive or violent behavior, is conduct that disrupts a student's ability to learn and a school's ability to educate its students in a safe environment."} "[T]o justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion" under Tinker, a school must show that it acted out of "'more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint,' but rather, 'that the school authorities had reason to anticipate that the [student's expression] would substantially interfere with the work of the school or would impinge upon the rights of other students.'"
Schools, it bears emphasizing, are not required to wait for student speech to actually disrupt the school environment or interfere with other students' rights before acting. "Nor does Tinker 'require certainty that disruption will occur.'" Indeed, "[s]chool officials have an affirmative duty … to prevent [disruptions] from happening in the first place," and "'[f]orecasting disruption is unmistakably difficult to do.'" Therefore, the touchstone of Tinker is reasonability—"whether the record demonstrates 'any facts which might reasonably have led school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities.'"
Here, an adequate analysis of B.A.P.'s First Amendment claims against Melton and Henson requires a more developed record than is available on a motion to dismiss. Courts typically conduct a context-dependent inquiry to determine whether a school official's forecast of disruption was reasonable. On this Motion, the Court can only consider the allegations in the Amended Complaint, which state a plausible claim for relief. Plaintiffs allege that Henson removed B.A.P. from class due to the message on her shirt, Melton did not allow her to return to class because of this message, and both Melton and Henson told B.A.P. she could not wear the shirt to school going forward. The Amended Complaint does not, however, supply specific facts and context about Livingston Academy and the surrounding community at the time Melton and Henson took these actions. Without this context, the Court cannot determine whether Melton and Henson reasonably forecasted that the message on B.A.P.'s shirt would cause substantial disruption or interference with the rights of other students. Accordingly, B.A.P.'s First Amendment claims against Melton and Henson will not be dismissed for failure to state a claim.
For largely the same reasons, the Court declines to resolve Melton and Henson's alternative defense of qualified immunity at this time…. Where "granting relief to the plaintiff can only be done by recognizing a novel constitutional right," granting qualified immunity to a defendant may be appropriate prior to factual development. But that is not necessarily the case where "the clearly established inquiry may turn on case-specific details that must be fleshed out in discovery." … [R]esolving the question of qualified immunity for these claims is a task better suited for summary judgment than a motion to dismiss….
"Most parents, realistically, have no choice but to send their children to a public school and little ability to influence what occurs in the school." Students, for their part, cannot simply opt out of attending school. Over the years, the Supreme Court has explained some of the many ways that the school environment is unique. It is, of course, uniquely important to the vital responsibility of educating children. The school environment is also unusually close-quartered. "[Students] spend the school hours in close association with each other, both in the classroom and during recreation periods. The students in a particular class often know each other and their teachers quite well. Of necessity, teachers have a degree of familiarity with, and authority over, their students that is unparalleled except perhaps in the relationship between parent and child." And a public school is unique for its openness to all members of the community. "Through [the schoolroom] passes every citizen and public official, from schoolteachers to policemen and prison guards. The values they learn there, they take with them in life."
Within this tightly packed and diverse environment, it is inevitable that students will encounter and exchange ideas with peers of different backgrounds and beliefs. That is a good thing. But a school cannot advance its educational mission if the interactions between students are so confrontational or contentious that there is no room for ordinary instruction. In recognition of this unavoidable reality, the Constitution recognizes school officials' power to regulate student expression based on their reasonable belief that one student's speech will interfere "with the school['s] work" or "colli[de] with the rights of other students to be secure and to be let alone." Whether a given exercise of that power strikes a sufficient balance between protecting an individual student's First Amendment rights and maintaining a disruption-free environment depends on contextual details that do not lend themselves easily to resolution on the pleadings alone….
Note, of course, that unlike with the Florida law labeled by its adversaries as the "Don't Say Gay" bill, there really is a serious Free Speech Clause issue here: While a K-12 school is generally not constrained by the Free Speech Clause in controlling its own curriculum (including what teachers teach when teaching that curriculum), it is constrained by the Free Speech Clause when it tries to control what students say.
The opinion doesn't mention what grade the student was in, and I couldn't find anything about it in the Complaint, either, but some Googling suggests that this happened in 9th grade or thereabouts.
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Hey, in the DSM 2 it wasn't only a sin, but a mental illness!!!
That's right Reverend Kirtland, you're no a longer a sinner, or mentally ill, just a Queer-as-a-3-Dollar Bill Homo.
The vile, toxic lawyer profession controls our schools. Naturally they stink. The average Korean student knows more than our Honor Student, perhaps even in English. India has more Honor Students than we have children. Our high school grads are barely literate. One may not even criticize a student without an investigation of discrimination. All woke, all PC are case. The lawyer profession must be crushed to save our schools and our nation.
Question. Tinker requires actial disruption or just the feeling of a Democrat groomer of an uncomfortable feeling?
Does Prof. Volokh still expect anyone to believe that his censorship of liberals has derived from violation of his blog’s ostensible civility standard? Many of this blog’s fans are dumb and quite gullible . . . But that dumb and gullible seems unlikely.
Rev. Resign your llaw firm job. You stole it from a diverse with your white privilege. Report back when you are gone from that undeserved colonialist privilege.
Rev. Didn't you claim to have attended s top toer law school? Your white privilege got you accepted there too. I do have to say, you have never exhibited the slightest sign of any legal training. You have of being a groomer.
When I was in school we didn't have sex ed. It starts in middle school in Massachusetts now, with parental opt-out. When I was in 8th or 9th grade some students made an attention-getting poster with the letters 'S', 'E', 'X' in very large print. From across the room you saw "SEX". On closer examination they were extra-large initial letters of words and the poster continued "now that we have your attention..." to talk about something non-sexual and teacher-approved. The word was not alien to us. The concept was not alien to us. More graphic things were talked about out of earshot of teachers.
If the letters 's' 'e' 'x' are the problem, change the shirt to "sodomites will burn in hell." I think the sequence of letters is not the problem, no matter what excuse was given at the time. And if the school does cover sin in sex ed but forbids it on shirts, the school officials should burn in the fire of the deposition room until they are truly sorry.
They are teaching about anal sex to 13 year okds in quite technical detail in public schools. These are in the full control of Democrat groomers.
Can you find us an example of where that actually happened?
My life might have been a little happier if they had had us practice anal sex on each other.
Eh I'd still probably have been the odd man out. Maybe my hot English teech could help out in that case.
"Class, shuddup and sit down. Now, today on your syllabus..."
Yeah, that could work.
Maybe give libs of tick tock a follow?
Did that involve teaching anal sex to 13 year olds?
yawn, that's a pretty lame version of replying to a request for a citation with "do your own research!"
Then what does one do when discussing "heterosexuality" in biology class? Still has "sex" in it.
So the upshot is that the First Amendment claim can go forward, I take it. That sounds about right. The school is going to have to do more work to show that their presumption that the T-shirt message would be disruptive was a well-founded one.
I suppose the same kind of thing would happen if the student wore a T-Shirt that read, "Abortion is Murder".
I will say that I would find it entirely plausible that the school's presumption was well-founded, but also the reverse. This is the South, after all.
I don't think merely showing that the anti-homosexual t-shirt is disruptive is enough, even if the plaintiffs stipulate it's disruptive.
Because the school is actively promoting an pro-homosexual viewpoint then it can't really say our viewpoint is the only legitimate one, or allow other students to promote a pro-homosexual viewpoint, but not allow an anti-homosexual viewpoint.
I acknowledge there are all sorts of conflicting legal implications, does the anti-homosexual t-shirt create a hostile learning environment for gay children? Does the pro-homosexual poster create a hostile learning environment for traditionally religious children.
I'm guessing that "don't say gay" will become leftist orthodoxy if the courts hold that means students can also say "gay is a sin".
Does a pro-civil rights poster automatically create a license for anti-civil rights advocacy? Does a poster promoting multi-racial harmony create a hostile learning environment for children raised in white power families? Or children who belong to the World Church of the Creator (a faith that believes in white superiority?)
I don't think teaching children to respect others' beliefs is a bad thing, which does include anti-gay religious beliefs. The fact that homosexuality is a sin for Christians and the fact that homosexuals, like Christians, deserve to be treated with civility in the public sphere are two facts that are not in opposition to each other.
We need to start coaching kids to be disruptive when they are being groomed. That’s how we can silence the molesters and pedophiles currently targeting little children in the Blue States and in some Blue Cities in the good States.
Did anyone else see that news that they are discovering secret gender transition closets in some Democrat government schools?
How evil and gross are Democrats? Are they even human?
you mean like Representative Jayapal???
Jeezus, even her zits have zits, her moles have moles, and I have Dyslexia so her name looks like "Slapajap"
Seriously, I'd rather have sex with any random Med School Cadaver (Females only! I have some standards) than (The Honorable) Madam Hairymole...
Rep Jayapal needs to watch a Tepezza commercial, for Pete's Sakes.
Pete and Chasten Boot-Edge-Edge should do a Descovy Commercial.... I've got doubts that Boot's (or Chasten for that matter) really a Peter Puffer, he's just the type to pretend for the Political Advantages, you know, like how "W" promised he'd balance the budget...Barry O said you'd keep your doctor (if you like your doctor) Sleepy Joe said he'd bring back High Interest Rates, Inflation, and humiliating Military defeats, Oh yeah, he Did!
Not as evil as people who have contorted the extremely serious issue of grooming children for sexual abuse into a cudgel to smear things like openness and empathy so that vulnerable youth are less likely to speak up when being abused and more likely to engage in self-harm. But I suppose teen suicides are a plus in your book.
As a Democrat, LawTalkingGuy, do you support the gender transition of 7 year olds?
he transitions them Personally!!!
Why is it not possible to have an honest discussion about gender identity?
I am not a Democrat but I do support allowing seven-year olds — or rather children and adults of all ages — to experiment with gender fluidity (https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/gender-fluidity-what-it-means-and-why-support-matters-2020120321544 ). With a lot of children it will pass, with others it will stay. So what?
That position of course is not supporting gender TRANSITION, and I know of very few people who would even attempt to have children transitioned at this stage. It would be hard to find a physician who would so egregiously breach medical standards who allow for reversible puberty blockers, and only at the onset of puberty, while prohibiting cross gender hormonal treatment and transition surgery only at age eighteen. Why don't we discuss THIS and with the seriousness it deserves rather than throwing around sinister insinuations?
What about a 7 year who wants to live legless or eyeless? Let them live as amputees or as blond? Let's discuss the mstter in an open and scientific way as they do at Harvard. Which is more extreme and hideous? A double amputation or a sex change? Discuss with civility everyone.
Find us an actual 7 year old for whom this is an issue, then we'll talk.
I have met seven year old children who have expressed the desire to be a horsie. Would this justify research and experimentation on such children regarding full simian to equine transformations?
Did they consistently express this desire over an extended period of time? If so, it should probably be looked at, but my sense is that most 7 year olds who want to be horsies then decide they want to be something else ten minutes later.
Probably a significant number of children and adolescents who believe themselves to be a different gender are just going through a phase, and, left to themselves, will grow out of it. This cautions being slow at things that can't be fixed later, like bottom surgery. But, for some of them, it's not a phase, they're not going to grow out of it, and they are just as entitled to pursue happiness as the rest of us. So let them sort it out for themselves.
Because there is no actual concern for these children on the part of conservatives. This is just another version of the standard use of harrassment to discourage individuals from choosing to live something other than the approved, white, protestant lifestyle. If there was any real concern for children, the abortion issue would have been resolved decades ago.
"Grooming" is the gay equivalent of the Jewish blood libel. Jews were accused of poisoning wells and drinking the blood of Christian children. Gays are accused of grooming children. Same dynamic, different hated minority group.
QAnon started out that way, but this groomer thing has morphed into something else entirely. People are accusing suicide hotlines of being groomers. Seriously. And they’ll bring it up even if you don’t say anything related to sex or gender at all!
What it has turned into is a despicable RW technique of making very nasty accusations against Democrats.
It really is despicable. It is disappointing to see so many happy to go along.
Straighties can't groom children ? Who knew ?
And Germans can bake children’s blood into Matzoh. What kind of crap logic is this?
Next year in Florida they will be dissecting Democrats in high school biology class and we will learn the answer.
I don't see how a T-shirt like that could possibly be disruptive in the sense of Tinker. But then I also think the Bong Hits 4 Jesus case was wrongly decided, so what do I know?
Gullible, superstitious, backwater, fledgling bigots have rights, too!
(But maybe not the right to avoid sitting next to someone in school wearing a t-shirt that declares
"Gullible, superstitious, and bigoted is no way to go through life" -- Jesus
(if he were real)
or
Is Jesus your favorite shitty fairy tale?)
In any event, I hope B.A.P. overcomes her childhood hardships -- a shabby hometown, superstition, likely shitty parents, bad schools, gullibility -- and becomes a decent, worthwhile person someday.
Rev, come on. You need to STFU. Resign and interview your diverse replacement for your law office job. You only got it with your white privilege. BLM needs your address to help you understand this point better.
Shirtlifter says what?
What could be more disruptive than the cultural appropriation of the rainbow?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. -- George Orwell, Animal Farm.
It is truly shocking how prescient Orwell was.
from Wikipedia article on Orwell's 1984:
"Orwell...modelled the totalitarian government in the novel after Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany."
And yes, it is indeed shocking that we are starting to see some features of Orwell's dystopia in "the land of the free."
Animal Farm is somewhere between an allegory and a roman a clef for the rise of the Soviet Union from the revolution through Orwell's own time, so I'm not sure prescience is the right descriptor.
"Those who do not learn from history..."
For example, doing nothing while a tyrant demanded territory to save his ethnic people from those bad guys.
Biden: Doing something about it.
Churchill: We'd better do something about it before we have no choice.
Chamberlain: Peace in our time! We gave the land to him!
Trump and Tucker: Wtf do we care? Let the tanks roll!
Correct on Tinker grounds obviously. But man does your movement suck when such qualities as “diverse, inclusive, accepting, safe space, for everyone” have to be characterized as “pro-homosexual” and not just simple good and healthy things for society. I mean assuming this is “pro-homosexual” that means the “anti” position is that school (or other places) should be uniform, exclusive, contemptuous, and a dangerous place for certain people.” Oh and I guess it would be stated on a gray sign with no color. And if you think that’s normal or good…you’re an unbelievable asshole.
when such qualities as “diverse, inclusive, accepting, safe space, for everyone” have to be characterized as “pro-homosexual” and not just simple good and healthy things for society
Admittedly, it's a subject that is rarely discussed, and so you may be unfamiliar with the jargon, but if I may make an analogy. In the debate about abortion, those who think abortion is OK, in the sense of being an OK choice for a woman to make are described - according to which side you're on - as "pro-choice" or "pro-abortion."
This does not mean that the pro-choicers think actual abortions are healthy and good for society, and that it's actually a wonderful thing that lots of fetuses get poisoned or chopped up or whatev (though there are a few weirdos who do think that) it just means that they think it's something you should be allowed to do, and that you shouldn't be vilified for doing it.
Thus "pro-homosexual" just means "of the opinion that having sexual relationships with people of the same sex as you is something you should be allowed to do, and that you shouldn't be vilified for."
And that, clearly, is the position of the school in this case (and FWIW my own. Though, to be clear, I regard the notion that homosexuality is a good thing and healthy for society as decidedly strange. It's an unfortunate disability, which constrains if it does not nuke, the sufferer's reproductive possibilities, certainly not something to be celebrated.)
However, the girl's T shirt indicates that she does not think it's OK, because her God has told her, in terms, that it's definitely not OK. This is not a new thing. God has been mentioning this point for some time now. (By "it" of course, God means indulging your impulse. Merely having lustful thoughts, whatever the object of your desire, is covered by other provisions.)
"Pro-homosexual" was used as a slur by this girl. "Homosexuality is a disability" strikes me a slur even if you don't intend it to be.
Josh. The sole purpose of life is reproduction. Who is more impaired? A kid with CP is in a wheel chair. He has mild intellectual disability. He flirts and would love to have sex with girls. A homosexual is a billionaire, wrote the Novel of the Century and found the cure for cancer.
"Pro-homosexual" was used as a slur by this girl.
In fact she didn't use that expression. She said - or displayed - "homosexuality is a sin" with a reference to Corinthians*. The judge reports that "the plaintiff" referred to the school's position as "pro-homosexual" which I take to be a reference to the plaintiff's lawyers.
As for slurs, yes, almost anything can be taken as a slur if one is sensitive enough. Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth, being unable to see, or being able to see only poorly, or unable to hear, or to smell or to walk - these are all disabilities. Likewise impotence. Likewise being sexually attracted only to people you cannot mate with. They all impair normal human life to some extent.
I appreciate that some folk like to put a brave face on things - for example some deaf people regard deafness as a blessing, and one or two deaf parents have been known to try to destroy their child's hearing to pass on this blessing. But I regard this as rather eccentric.
One should obviously not chase after people jeering "cripple", but in a sober discussion of reality, conducted at arms length over the internet, it is foolish, or at the very least eccentric, to pretend that those suffering from disabilities are not in fact disabled. If they regard their disability as a blessing, good for them. But we do not all need to adopt their eccentricity as our own.
* not a direct quote from Corinthians. But that verse also is quite mean to fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, self abusers, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners. Most of these "target' the doers of evil deeds, rather than mere psychological inclinations (perhaps excepting covetousness), but that is the general Old Testament approach - it is the indulgence of homosexual inclinations that sends you to Hell, not merely having the inclinations.
Oops, you are right about who said pro-homosexual in this case.
Being gay is not a barrier to having kids. And claiming that being gay is a lesser status that some people put a brave face on comparable to being impotent, blind or deaf is disgusting. It implies we should be seeking a cure for being gay.
Being gay is not a barrier to having kids.
It is not an impenetrable barrier. It is an impediment. And so with impotence. Probably some of those other disabilities too. And since until quite recently there was no method for a gay person to procreate without subjecting him or herself to the possibly disagreeable experience of heterosexual intercourse, one might say that recent artificial aids to procreation already serve as, if not a cure, then a prosthetic for gayness, in the reproductive realm.
And, just for the avoidance of doubt, under current technology, reality imposes an absolute barrier to a gay couple having their own kids. And a reproductive partnership that generates, and then raises, its own kids is for the majority of mankind, the meaning of life.
And claiming that being gay is a lesser status that some people put a brave face on comparable to being impotent, blind or deaf is disgusting. It implies we should be seeking a cure for being gay.
Why should "we" not seek a cure for being gay ? There may be those who are gay who would prefer not to be. After all, "we" are not merely seeking, but offering, a cure for being male, or a cure for being female, even to minors.
If you can be cured of your sex, you can surely be cured of your sexual preference. But only, of course, if you should wish it so.
*"we" does not imply that "we taxpayers" should be chipping in
A twofer: slur gays (you can be cured) then slur the transgender (no one is claiming transitioning is a cure for being a biomarker male or female).
I feel sure that you are the fellow who is always insisting that I must go along with a man who wants me to agree that he is a woman, on the basis that it is, apparently, a necessary part of his medical treatment.
What is this but a (not very effective) cure for what he sees as is wrong with him - that his phenotype is uncomfortably female ?
Whoops - s/b "uncomfortably male."
So hard to keep track these days.
But never difficult to recognize that bigotry is never improved by being wrapped in religion.
Except among gullible bigots, of course.
It's a cure for gender dysphoria, the stress caused by having a gender identity that doesn't match you biomarker sex, which is not a cure for being a biomarker male (which cannot change).
It's a cure for gender dysphoria in about the same way that bariatric surgery is a cure for anorexia.
It's a cure for gender dysphoria, the stress caused by having a gender identity that doesn't match you biomarker sex
And yet the supposed cure does not attempt to do any work on the gender identity, ie on the mistaken psychological impresion that you are, or ought to be, on the other team, it consists in attempting to chisel away at the phenotypical expressions of the actual, unchangeable, sex.
Clinical experience shows the most effective treatment is to affirm the gender identity, although in some cases the distress is transient and the person's gender identity eventually conforms to their biomarker sex.
Christianity teaches that all humans are equally sinful and that Jesus is the cure.
Good reason not to teach it, therefore.
And claiming that being gay is a lesser status that some people put a brave face on comparable to being impotent, blind or deaf is disgusting
I should add a word on the “lesser status” thing. Obviously we are all equally humans, morally, and in that sense no one has lesser status (sense 1). Having put that on one side, in the sense that being impotent, blind or deaf impairs your functioning, it is a “disability” which might be said to confer on you a “lesser status” solely in the sense of your ability to function effectively in the domain of your disability (sense 2.) (Obviously, you may be blind, but have a wonderful ear for music, so observers would not be according you “lesser functional status” net-net. Your disability in one area may be outweighed by a superabundance of ability elsewhere.)
Being homosexual is a disability in precisely this sense. It is not simply another functionally co-equal way of being a human. It impairs your reproductive function.
Compare, for example, being male or female, or being black or white (or even orange.) These are functionally co-equal ways of being human. You cannot say that a black man is functionally impaired in any normal human function, on account of being black and male. And likewise for white females. Race and sex are not disabilities. But being gay is in a different category. It impairs your reproductive function, and so it is a disability. Maybe under current technology, it’s not a very serious disability. Perhaps these days it’s not a lot more serious than being near-sighted – deadly to your prospects even quite recently, now easily solved by technology, for most purposes.
I’m a bit near sighted myself. It’s a disability. I don’t feel a “lesser person” (sense 1) because of it, but I do feel a “lesser person” (sense 2) – and I’d rather not be near sighted. But my spectacles mostly solve the problem. Well done the optical geeks.
But let’s not pretend it was never a disability. It was. It still is. It’s just that they figured out a work around.
Last but not least, we should not confuse the questions of whether there is a disability, and whether the bearer of the disability minds about it. It may be that a woman whose ovaries are not functional, for some genetic or development reason, also happens to be a woman who definitely never ever ever wants to have children anyway. In this case, her disability may not bother her at all. But it’s still a disability.
" Being homosexual is a disability in precisely this sense. "
More a disability or less a disability than being gullible enough to fall for adult-onset superstition? Maybe equally a disability as religiousness? But surely you would agree that the level of gullibility needed to believe that a fairy tale is true is a disability?
Homesexuality does not impair one's ability to have children, as is evidenced by the many, many homosexual men who have fathered children in the past and continue to do so today. The idea that parents should love each other in order to form a family is relatively new in human history. Gay men have been marrying women and siring children out of obligation since forever. There is no more a disability here than there is with the many heterosexuals who also fail to have children by choice or circumstance while being biologically capable of it. Further, homosexuality neither eliminates the desire nor the ability to have children. Any complications related to sexuality are a consequence of our social norms and laws and not the ability to perform a basic biological function.
This is, of course, a complete fantasy. Leaving aside the modern invention of surrogacy, a homosexual man who wished to be a father would - like a heterosexual man - need to identify a female partner willing to bear his children. That would typically have required some sort of undertaking in the nature of marriage / pair bond - a trade of sexual access for resources, over the medium term.
1. If the homosexual man is honest with his prospective partner, he's going to find it harder to find a female volunteer than the heterosexual man. Even if he isn't honest (much the more common option on the historical record) she may well smell a rat during courtship. Finding a willing female victim is harder for a gay guy. (Pre Facebook etc convenienty identifying a gay woman who wants to breed was not so easy.)
2. If the marriage / pair bond proceeds, the physical business of copulation has to take place. Frequently and with gusto. Animals do not generally copulate in order to procreate. This is because they are not deep thinkers and have not figured out, rationally, that the one thing leads to the other. So they copuate because their instincts drive them to copulate. Although humans have figured the chain of causation out, humans are still animals, and relatively few copulations are initiated on the conscious basis of "we really have an obligation to get that thing done so we can present our parents with some grandchildren. Unbutton your blouse please, Maude." Which is not to say that homosexual men are incapable of copulating with women, when they don't feel much by way of sexual desire. It's just that if you want to have children, it really helps to be at it like rabbits. Which is what most young heterosexual couples do, because that's what they want to do. So, strike two against the gay guy - there''s going to be less copulation in his relationship and so a lower chance of children. And so, even if he is successful, the odds are on him siring fewer children that he woud have done if he were heterosexual.
3. Next, we have to consider the marital satisfaction of the wife / mate. Whatever gay hubby's technical skills, on average, he's not going to provide as much satisfaction in the sack as his straight counterpart would do. On average. Moreover some even many or most, heterosexual couples have a close emotional tie as well as the physical stuff. They're in lurve (not always, but often.) There are even chemicals flowing to cement the bond. But if the woman is not the hubby's real love interest, that bond is going to be weaker. On average. And if the relatinship is less satisfactory both physically and emotionally for the wife, the greater the chances of her succumbing to the inclination to seek solace elsewhere. Increasing the chances that gay hubby's children are not in fact his children.
None of this prevents gay hubby siring children - it just gives him three statistical disadvantages in the procreation business :
1, harder to find a female volunteer
2. less animal spirits, less copulation and so less fertilisation
3, greater risk of cuckoldry
It would be nice to have statistics on the average number of children sired by gay and straight men, but we don't have that. But if the average straight man didn't have more than twice as many children as the average gay man, I'd be astonished.
A gay woman, however, is going to be at less of a disadvantage for obvious reasons.
It's worth noting that genetic studies have indicated that modern humans have roughly twice as many female ancestors as male.
This indicates that there has been significantly variability in male human reproductive success; ie unlike women where most of the female population has an excellent chance of successfully reproducing, there's a significant cohort of males who do not reproduce, and another cohort of males who are very sucessful reproducers. (This variability is nothing like elephant seals, of course, but a 2 to 1 difference is hardly trivial.)
Given the statistical disadvantages to reproduction by gay men, it would be surprising if generation in, generation out, gay men were not overrepresented in the non breeding cohort and underrepresented in the very successful breeder cohort.
It's kinda hard to envisage a gay Genghis Khan fathering several hundred children. You've got to have some real commitment to work through 500 concubines.
Thus "pro-homosexual" just means "of the opinion that having sexual relationships with people of the same sex as you is something you should be allowed to do, and that you shouldn't be vilified for."
And yet, there seem to be plenty of people happy to vilify it. Not only that, but to claim that homosexuals are particularly prone to other offenses like pedophilia.
And that, clearly, is the position of the school in this case (and FWIW my own. Though, to be clear, I regard the notion that homosexuality is a good thing and healthy for society as decidedly strange. It's an unfortunate disability, which constrains if it does not nuke, the sufferer's reproductive possibilities, certainly not something to be celebrated.)
Neither good nor bad, Lee. Just the way some people are. And those people shouldn't be looked down on, vilified, denied their rights, etc. because of it.
Neither good nor bad, Lee.
No, it's bad. It's a disability.
Just the way some people are. And those people shouldn't be looked down on, vilified, denied their rights, etc. because of it.
Well, I happen to agree with that. In the same way , deaf people are just the way they are. They shouldn't be looked down on, vilified, or denied their rights on account of being deaf. But I'm not going to pretend that being deaf is other than a disability.
I don't think it's unreasonable for religious folk whose God has been telling them that homosexuality (ie actual acts thereof) is a sin, for several thousand years, to repeat the teachings of their book. I accept that that may cause offense, but many things can cause offense.
You should generally avoid giving offense, but not at the expense of acquiescing in things you don't approve of. If someone is earnestly, and sincerely, banging on about the merits of Stalin or Mao, or the guy with the toothbrush moustache, or even insisting that deaf people do not suffer from a disability, I am not bound to remain silent by an all powerful mandate to avoid giving offense. Not giving offense is just a general guideline, not a Commandment.
The same crowd that insists a message on a rainbow-flag background is neutral insist that the slogan "Black Lives Matter" does not privilege Black lives over other lives.
You’re kind of missing the point. It’s not neutral i today’s political landscape. But the fact that those ideas are “pro-homosexual” instead of just good things speaks to the assholery of homophobes.
the assholery of homophobes
One for the ages.
Gay-bashers are loathsome bigots. Fortunately, our society is diminishing the influence of such stale and ugly thinking in modern America. Wrapping bigotry in silly superstition does nothing to improve the bigotry.
If right-wingers insist on continuing to lose the culture war by clinging to various forms of bigotry, I approve.
It's symbolism. The rainbow has become a symbol of homosexuality.
The school by having a poster of the rainbow in a classroom can be taken as support for homosexuality, no matter what other messages are posted with it. I wonder if a t-shirt having a rainbow with a red circle and line drawn through it would get the same result from the school?
support for homosexuality
What does this mean?Is it the same as "support for Republicans?"
Homosexuality is not an ideology, or an opinion. If a school can discourage racial slurs why can't it also discourage anti-homosexual slurs? Because some people are homophobes? Well, some peopke are racists, too.
Oh come on! In earlier days, there were a lot of folks who thought homosexuals ("queers") were outside the range of acceptable behavior. Nowadays, it's the anti-gays that are likely to be declared unaccpetable. Gays aren't going to hide in the closet anymore, thank God. If you think they're wrong, stand up and say so -- and no government institution has any more right to prohibit you from doing so than it has to prohibit me from saying people should be free to be however God made them.
Homosexuals are tyrants and bullies. See the entite hierarchy of the Nazi Party to the very top.
Agreed! Bigots have rights, too.
These t-shirt wars are tiresome.
Just let her wear the damn shirt if she wants to.
In fact, it's a clear case of "the remedy for bad speech is good speech."
The sentiment is moronic, St. Paul notwithstanding, and the best response is to let her express it and then be challenged by her peers to defend it.
I can't help but think the presence of the rainbow flag does mean the issue of homosexuality is being constantly raised in class. It's true the word "sex" is not on the flag, but the topic is raised.
It will be interesting to see if courts think the root word "sex" in homosexual somehow vaults the t-shirts expression into something kids can be banned from putting on a t-shirt while allowing the school and teachers to communicate statements about homosexuality through the use of a rainbow flag. Because it seems to me if the teacher actually brings the subject up through decor, the subject should be open to student expression.
If so, the student can easily respond with a pictorial T shirt depicting two nervous looking bearded people holding hands, surrounded by flames, with a large guy looking a bit like Spock, and carrying a pitchfork, in the background.
An add a caption saying "1 Corinthians 6:9-10".
The judge said, B.A.P.'s shirt did not display 'indecent,' 'lewd,' or 'vulgar' speech, and I doubt any other judge will feel otherwise.
If some parents could manage to teach their kids that it isn't okay to bully other kids you think are gay, then safe-space posters like the one you mention wouldn't be needed. But sure, kids yelling "smear the queer" on the playground and beating up on boys they think are gay is another way "homosexuality is being constantly raised in [schools.]" All I'm hearing from the pro-homophobia crowd here is that they prefer homosexuality being brought up in more violent ways rather than the poster that is intended to send the message that gay kids get to learn reading, writing, and math too.
But it's fine for the school to "bully" a student who's view is that homosexuality is wrong? That's what's happening here. The student wasn't directing her view at a specific person, but, the school is directly attacking her.
No one said they prefer homosexuality to be brought up in different more violent ways. I only noted the topic homosexuality is being brought up intentionally in class by the particular teacher who disciplined her for a t-shirt that engaged in speech on that subject.
That fact makes it a bit difficult to plausibly argue that the school really prohibits speech about the homosexuality; in fact, this particular teacher appears to advocate discussing it. Perhaps, like you, he thinks discussing it is necessary.
However, it appears he may want to limit discussion to statements that agree with his position on homosexuality. But that's where the 1st amendment becomes a problem.
They never had any issue with "Don't say gay." They had an issue with not being able to talk about how great this disorder is.
I'm struck by the progress of science. Writers 4000 years ago could only muster "And God said let there be light, and there was light." In modern our modern time, we know "And God said let there be light, and, BANG, there was light."
Some people call the big Banger by different names: some have different ideas of the manner in which he Banged.
I'm also struck by the progress of speech (and will await a few more comments).
In college shirts were sold that said
And God said...
[Maxwell's equations here]
... and there was light.
But how many people get why that’s funny?
That would depend on which college you attended.
Well sure, MIT >> Hahvahd ...
Why don't we look at the source, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
"10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
It really calls attention that B.A.P. zeroes in on the "effeminate" (and what exactly does that mean?), leaving out the "abusers of themselves" which might be quite a larger proportion of her age group. No challenge to the "fornicators" and the "adulterers" among the teachers and parents (and among politicians — why does the number 45 come to mind?). Like most of us, B.A.P. (and her parents?) seem to be little troubled by "idolaters" because, frankly, who has consciously met one recently?
I leave verse 10 to the better equipped self-righteous among us commentators.
(As to the issue: I find students — instigated by bigoted parents or not — with their in-your-face bigotry or political correctness an obnoxious nuisance but students must learn that liberty has its costs and we better endure them. Controversy, strenuous discussions are part of life, and no kumbaya will change that, particularly, the controversy-free environment enforced by school sanctions. Clumsy, intellectually contorted and dishonest interventions by the school conveys the message that you better engage the powers that be on your side to resolve controversial issues. Hence the degradation of political discourse.)
By the plain language, I think the objection is to "abusers of themselves with mankind", not the merely effeminate. The reason those other categories aren't harped on is probably because modern society still condemns most of them, and the ones it doesn't condemn as strongly -- adulterers and the effeminate -- are not being strongly normalized in the school environment.
I can hardly think of a more abusive thing to do to your body than to put another's private parts into your waste disposal tube.
Fun fact: the rectum is one of the most innervated regions of the body. Those nerves are made to be stimulated.
IOW: try it, you will like it. I personally recommend using a tub of Crisco and douching with warm water before doing the nasty.
An interesting proposition. I wonder if the slogan "Fun fact: the rectum is one of the most innervated regions of the body. Those nerves are made to be stimulated" were emblazoned on a T-Shirt, perhaps with a suggestive but tasteful cartoon rendition of the suggested stimulation in action, that the same sort of reaction would have been triggered in the school authorities.
Given my personal preference for more rather than less free non-violent expression, I expect you know where I stand on such issues.
Adulterers includes people who divorce and remarry and, of course, sex outside of marriage. Modern American society is comprised of a majority of people who have/had masterbated and almost half of marriages end in divorce.
The reason Christians are using the old testiment to justify bigotry is because the new testiment isn't direct enough and doesn't have the same violent oomf they're reaching for.
Keep going. Let me help.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is told twice in the Old Testament: Genesis Chapter 19 and Ezekiel Chapter 16. Ezekiel explains that the sin of Sodom was pride, gluttony, slothfulness (complacency) lack of charity and lack of welcoming others.
49. Now look at the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were proud, sated with food, complacent in prosperity. They did not give any help to the poor and needy.
https://bible.usccb.org/bible/ezekiel/16?49
The Genesis story is allegorical not literal. It starts with 2 messengers of God (angels) visiting Lot, a Jewish patriarch or elder. Lot showed charity, humility, service and welcomed the messengers into his home:
3. He prepared a banquet for them, baking unleavened bread, and they dined.
4. Before they went to bed, the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old—all the people to the last man—surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sexual relations with them.”
I will be the first to assert that today’s culture is depraved. However, the notion of an entire town of men both young and old, suddenly showing up to a home with intentions of having sex with 2 visitors is fantastic, as in far fetched. That is because that is not the story. The message is that of Ezekiel: the locals failed to treat the 2 visitors with charity, humility, service and hospitality
Evangelical fundamentalists need a black and white rubric to hold as their guide. They are also the first to selectively cite quotes to buttress their agenda. There are thousands of commands in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ did away with all of them except for two: love God and your neighbor. Period
If you want to examine whether a person is an authentic Christian, observe their actions. None of us are perfect. But when Liberty University president, Jerry Falwell Jr. has a pool boy over to his home so that he can watch him screw his wife on a regular basis, when Jimmy Swaggart has sex with prostitutes, when Jim and Tammy Faye Baker use the Bible to build a financial empire, etc, remember the sins of Sodom.
The story of Sodom was distorted to fit a narrative that was never mentioned again in the Bible: homosexuality as a sin
See
“A thousand years ago, the Catholic Church paid little attention to homosexuality”
https://theconversation.com/a-thousand-years-ago-the-catholic-church-paid-little-attention-to-homosexuality-112830
Your position is her interpretation of the scripture does not match what it really means. That may very well be true. But I don't think relevant to the parents legal argument on her behalf. Her religious beliefs are her belief; the political position she wants to express is hers.
You or others get to disagree with her positions, but that doesn't mean you can take away her right to have her own religious ideas and political views and express those.
(Honestly, I don't know what 1 Corinthians really means. I'm an atheist and i don't really care what it means. But I recognize that is her religious view.)
Just to be clear, IIUC in this context "effeminate" means catching, and "abusers of themselves with mankind" means pitching.
Versatile is the only way to go. But I sense that you already know that.
I'd probably let her wear the shirt on free speech grounds despite thinking the belief to be wacky. But I can see the point that shirts that disparage other students for their personal traits, including sexual orientation, race, religion, ethnicity, or the like, are disruptive to the educational environment. Mind you I'm sure that many schools would like to extend that to Trump, pro-life, or anti-illegal immigration shirts if they could too, so drawing the line is tricky.
The First Amendment was never meant to institutionalize federal judicial control over schools. School policies should be up to the local community.
School policies should be up to the local community.
Unless DeSantis or the legislature doesn't like something, or can make political hay, is what you mean.
Do they have a geography class? I hope no one brings a sextant...
Man! the nasty uglies are out in full force today. And slinging feces like a pack of monkeys. The people who are wired & present differently than the majority of the community are still just people. And citizens. Just like God made them (if you go that way). A gay student shouldn't be attacked this way at school. If you substituted Jews on her shirt, & she sincerely believes not being a Christian to be a sin, does that fly? The narrative that inclusion of natural diversity is pro-homosexual is just ignorant. And should be rebuffed firmly at every turn. Homophobia is old primate behavior. Just like Biblical misogyny.
The word "sex" on the shirt as the issue is bogus & poor. "We are protecting our gay students & students with gay family & friends from being harassed at school by small minded, bigoted Christians", would be a much better response. The gay & non-binary people are not going to go back into the closet. And are not going to accept the narrative that they are immoral, or an abomination. You small minded, feces throwing monkeys have already lost. And are just making things worse continuing the fight. Look at the absurd & very nasty "pedophile & groomer" language that is being used against anyone who simply supports & accepts gay people as a normal part of our society. Plenty of that on this thread.
The gay & non-binary people are not going to go back into the closet.
Amen
I fucken refuse. If anyone thinks they will succeed, bring it. My husband tells me I scare the shit out of straights when we train at the gym. Sometimes I drop two sets of 90 lb dumbbells with extra gusto to get a rise out of them. Cracks me up to see straights jump out of my path while training heavy with weights.
#HowHungRu
I expect 'straights' would also tend to find an aggressive, ripped homosexual rapist fresh from prison and bragging about his extracurricular exploits to be quite intimidating as well. That isn't a reasonable justification for abridging the free speech rights of a teenaged Christian, however. The same reasoning would apply to Christians capturing a student after school and burning him to death for wearing a "Black Sabbath" T-shirt.
When B.A.P. arrived in Henson's classroom on August 25, 2020, she was wearing a shirt stating, "homosexuality is a sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10."
Would not have offended me in the slightest. I have met some of the most passionate
straightgay men who expressed such fire and brimstone condemnation. It is often said that people who are most condemnatory of homosexuality are often closeted homosexuals. I have found this to be true foe I was one of them.Homosexuals like me are just people with a physical attraction to their own sex. From there the differences are literally infinite.
Was Jack Chick a closet Catholic?
I take it a T-Shirt with the slogan "I refuse to service my teacher's genitals" would also be inappropriate for a classroom setting.
It would seem reasonable for another student to wear a T-shirt saying, quite correctly, "Jesus spoke out against hypocrisy, not homosexuality".
Indeed.
And I have a question for the learned Christians here.
Corinthians is a letter written by Paul, IIUC. Do the words of Paul carry the same force as those of Jesus?