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Justice Black's Dissent in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District
"Turned loose with lawsuits for damages and injunctions against their teachers as they are here, it is nothing but wishful thinking to imagine that young, immature students will not soon believe it is their right to control the schools."
Randy and I are adding several cases for the second edition of An Introduction to Constitutional Law. One of the classic cases, which appears on the AP Government required list, is Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969). I had read the majority opinion before, but never read Justice Black's entire dissent. I suspect this passage from Justice Black's dissent will resonate with many people today:
Change has been said to be truly the law of life but sometimes the old and the tried and true are worth holding. The schools of this Nation have undoubtedly contributed to giving us tranquility and to making us a more law-abiding people. Uncontrolled and uncontrollable liberty is an enemy to domestic peace. We cannot close our eyes to the fact that some of the country's greatest problems are crimes committed by the youth, too many of school age. School discipline, like parental discipline, is an integral and important part of training our children to be good citizens—to be better citizens. Here a very small number of students have crisply and summarily refused to obey a school order designed to give pupils who want to learn the opportunity to do so. One does not need to be a prophet or the son of a prophet to know that after the Court's holding today some students in Iowa schools and indeed in all schools will be ready, able, and willing to defy their teachers on practically all orders. This is the more unfortunate for the schools since groups of students all over the land are already running loose, conducting break-ins, sit-ins, lie-ins, and smash-ins. Many of these student groups, as is all too familiar to all who read the newspapers and watch the television news programs, have already engaged in rioting, property seizures, and destruction. They have picketed schools to force students not to cross their picket lines and have too often violently attacked earnest but frightened students who wanted an education that the pickets did not want them to get. Students engaged in such activities are apparently confident that they know far more about how to operate public school systems than do their parents, teachers, and elected school officials. It is no answer to say that the particular students here have not yet reached such high points in their demands to attend classes in order to exercise their political pressures. Turned loose with lawsuits for damages and injunctions against their teachers as they are here, it is nothing but wishful thinking to imagine that young, immature students will not soon believe it is their right to control the schools rather than the right of the States that collect the taxes to hire the teachers for the benefit of the pupils. This case, therefore, wholly without constitutional reasons in my judgment, subjects all the public schools in the country to the whims and caprices of their loudest-mouthed, but maybe not their brightest, students. I, for one, am not fully persuaded that school pupils are wise enough, even with this Court's expert help from Washington, to run the 23,390 public school systems in our 50 States. I wish, therefore, wholly to disclaim any purpose on my part to hold that the Federal Constitution compels the teachers, parents, and elected school officials to surrender control of the American public school system to public school students. I dissent.
I sometimes wonder what schools would look like if Justice Black's views had prevailed.
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The core problem is not the students, unruly and unwise as they may be. It is withholding choice, of restricting students to the closest geographical school. When any group of people have no choice, they will focus on changing the nature of what they are forced to use, regardless of how well it suits others. The school itself will behave badly, as it sees its mandate to teach everyone, regardless of whether they want to be taught what the school is teaching.
The same applies to all associations, and government is the prime example. The more government does by mandate and by coercion, the more dissenters it scoops up, and the more those dissenters realize the only choice they have is to change the forced choice, regardless of how well it suits anybody else.
This lesson ought to be obvious, but too many people see it as their mission in life to make damned sure everybody else learns that specific creed, regardless of how well it suits anybody except the wise elite shoving his creed down their throats.
One wonders why Tinker and subsequent cases, like Mahanoy, have not been used to deter the woke.
Of course, no one is saying the self evident. Our schools stink. The lawyer profession destroyed all discipline and all standards. Another toxic effect of the lawyer profession. These know nothing idiot savants bookworms on the Supreme Court thought they could run our schools.
"Of course, no one is saying the self evident. Our schools stink."
Maybe yours did. My offspring went through public school and got a pretty good education... She's currently a graduate student at a state-run university.
" The more government does by mandate and by coercion "
How do antisocial, disaffected dipshits like this guy survive in a world with stop signs, center lines, student vaccination requirements, 'no parking' signs, traffic lights, clothing requirements, and similar outrages?
Hi, Artie. A German town removed all traffic signals. That eliminated car crashes. Those are just more lawyer quackery and rent seeking, oppression under color of law. All rules should be proven safe and effective, or assumed to be void.
*chuckles nervously*
What the fuck?
But seriously, why did you highlight this:“Uncontrolled and uncontrollable liberty is an enemy to domestic peace.” Wtf is going on in your head right now?
What's going through Blackman's head right now?
Disaffectedness. Desperation. Delusion. Bitterness. Resentment.
And the South Texas College Of Law Houston fight song ('Still Six Schools Ranked Below Us!!')
As one of our superiors, Artie, please set a better example. Stop your personal remarks. Try an argument of fact, of law, or of logic, for a change of pace.
Wtf is going on in your head ever?
Haven't your heard that "the freedom to swing your arms ends at your neighbor's nose"?
What’s going on in my head is being a normal person who isn’t scared shitless by inclusive cultural changes.
“the freedom to swing your arms ends at your neighbor's nose”
Yes. That describes a physical assault. The quote Blackman highlighted, in a decision about silently wearing armbands in school to protest a war that was getting their generation killed, is not even close to being the same.
Sure, Groomer. Youth today are punished for daring to point out that biology is a thing.
Citations?
"I am the first black woman on the Supreme Court."
"Say, what is a woman, anyway?"
"I dunno. I am not a biologist."
KBJ is a youth? And she’s being punished?
"KBJ is a youth? And she’s being punished?"
Well, they did make her sit in a room with all those Senators. That sounds like punishment.
Leaving aside that your comment has no relevance to my request, who is the winningest woman in Jeopardy! history?
Mayim Bialik.
The guy who asked the question couldn't answer it properly.
We had a long threat in the comments on Thursday discussing the question.
Don't pretend it's an easy question.
“Youth today are punished for daring to point out that biology is a thing.“
There’s a lot wrong with this sentence, but taking the factual assertion at face value….that means you think that Black (and Blackman) is wrong and that students should have free expression rights?
BTW, And, I mean this sincerely, throwing around the word “groomer” casually to describe things you disagree with (literally nothing in my post was about sex or even gender) is going to make the term lose meaning and in the long-run is going to do real harm to children. You’re going to call everything in culture grooming and then miss all the warning signs when an adult is actually grooming a child for sexual abuse. If you really do care about protecting kids, you shouldn’t be so careless with your language and accusations.
The simplest explanation is that all those people who see pedophiles everywhere are trying to warn you about the one pedophile they know about for sure.
Because pointing out child abuse is the REAL child abuse?
Get a new script already.
Creating a climate of fear and silence regarding the open discussion of sensitive topics gives predators a golden opportunity. Why do you think some of the worst sexual abuse occurred in historically homophobic organizations like the Church and the Boy Scouts during an era where gay people were labeled groomers and people didn’t openly communicate?
It’s unintentional but you’re trying to recreate the conditions that predators thrive in.
"Because pointing out child abuse is the REAL child abuse?"
WTF are you talking about. Because pointing a finger at somebody else leaves 4 fingers pointing back at yourself.
"Get a new script already."
"Stupid people are stupid" still works, no need for a new script.
“Clinger Barbie”
Why do progressives hate women?
"
Groomer is the right wing insult du jour. As inaccurate as it is despicable.
I mean that communists and their sympathizers have gotten a long way in their long march through the institutions, and we need to start cleaning house to remove the people who think feelz are more important than facts.
I can lump you in with that broader group of totalitarians who want a reset to year zero, if you say that's more accurate than just identifying you as someone who wants to twist children's identities.
I mean...heal thyself.
You post a lot of feelz yourself, and what facts you cite tend to come from suspect sources.
This is why I don't like partisan purges - you think you're right, but so do the people you want to purge.
Argue policy, not people.
When we argue policy, you complain that it's a "don't say gay" argument. When we point out that gender and sex have biological bases, you harp over the parts-per-million ambiguities as "proof" that the lack of a bright line means there is no objective fact. When we point out that you are purging people from the public square, you claim that large corporations acting at the behest of Congressional Democrats are merely exercising constitutional rights.
And then you demand respect. No, you are not getting any respect until you start earning it.
"When we argue policy [blah, blah, blah]"
When you argue policy, you insist that no other policy is possible. When you get called out for that, you resort to ad hominem attacks on the messenger.
Well that’s a bunch of word salad.
Yes, that means you don't have the liberty to hit your neighbor's nose - hitting his nose is not a part of liberty at all, controlled or uncontrolled.
Was this before or after the Justice told the other Justices to "get off my lawn".
Not a lot of law in what is quoted here, but then Prof. Blackman seems far more interested in promoting political agendas and having those same political agendas adopted by the courts than in true legal analysis.
But to answer his question,
"I sometimes wonder what schools would look like if Justice Black's views had prevailed."
the correct answer is that schools would look the same as they do today.
Unless that dissent included enjoining unions, you are correct.
The school "issues" are union politics issues.
Most of the school "issues" are imagined, by deeply troubled souls.
You're too young to know what this decision meant. In fact I'd go further and say that you do not exhibit the maturity of the typical 38 year old.
Do you know the facts of this case? Wearing a "peace" armband to school would get you suspended. Do you want to go back to those days?
As someone who was bravely able to wear such a symbol in school (in a very conservative school system) just after this opinion came down, and who was a school newspaper editor shortly afterward, I say this with a great deal of feeling.
How did that go? Was there a lot of resistance?
I got a lot of grief from my teacher, and did not win an award at graduation that everyone expected me to win. I also underwent psychiatric care and was put on valium. Even today I still have the "twitches". The next year, in a different school, I got lots of surprise compliments which I later realized was an attempt to make up to me what had happened.
Ooof sorry that happened. But good on you for standing up for not only what you believed in, but also the right thing.
thx
"Psychiatric Care"??? Didn't see that one coming.....
I think my daughter won your award, "Most likely to Conceive" (Rim shot) Valium??? Righteous Benzo! born a few years earlier and you'd have gotten Meprobamate and been date raped...
I get those "Twitches" myself, funny, shot of Jack knocks them right out... Wow, so your new school somehow knew about you getting cheated out of an award (let me guess, you were popular, but hung out with "the Outcasts") and all got together to cheer you up, so your suicide wouldn't be on their collective consciences....
Frank "Hated High School, except when I was High"
We come out on different sides of many issues, captcrisis. But that is some story from your youth. Wow. I am glad you stuck to your guns and saw it through. I am equally certain the perseverance you showed in your youth served you well throughout your life. It clearly had an impact on you.
May I ask a personal question? What personal qualities of yours do you think prompted you to act as you did? Was there a specific moment in time where you had a sudden insight about it?
I am greatly complimented by your question, which has never been squarely put to me before.
Possible reasons:
1. Being a bright child, who read everything he could find about things that interested him. Dinosaurs (age 8)! Astronomy (age 10)! After I had read everything I could find in the local library, there was nothing else to read, and I gradually fell out of interest on those topics. I was a gifted child, but never identified as such and in a town where no resources were available. But with current events there's always something new to read about.
2. I first became politically aware in 1967. My fifth grade teacher put a map of Vietnam on the wall and I was in charge of giving weekly updates. The Tet offensive happened and I began wondering why we, the most powerful nation on earth, kept on not being able to win that war in such a small country.
3. Going to Catholic school only for first and second grade. (Too expensive, no extra curriculars; my parents then put me in public school, and all my siblings (I'm the oldest) only went to public school.) So I got fed a lot of the good early elementary stuff (caring for the poor and disadvantaged) but not the later toxic stuff about sex.
4. Getting politically aware as I was hitting adolescence. It is the most vivid and passionate time of life -- the highs are higher, the lows are lower. Anyone who reads this comment would agree with that.
The Catholic school angle is fascinating (not surprising). Thanks for a complete answer, captcrisis. Yes to higher highs and lower lows as a teen. Oy vey, is that the truth.
Wearing a MAGA arm band will get you kicked out school today
(peace arm bands were nothing BUT political at the time of Tinker)
SCOTUS rulings can be porous.
Just like 2cnd amendment rulings.
"Wearing a MAGA arm band will get you kicked out school today"
Gee, walk into a school claiming that America isn't great and you get some pushback. Shocker.
Under Tinker (which I think is correctly decided) wearing a MAGA armband (or hat) should not get you kicked out of school. But so far as I can tell nobody is getting kicked out of school for that reason. I did a quick Google search to see if I could find any cases of students getting suspended for wearing anything saying MAGA. I only found 1 case in the last 3 years (and it was a Catholic school, which makes it a little different than a public school), and the girl who was suspended was suing. What's your authority for saying that wearing a MAGA hat gets you kicked out of school?
If I understand Blackman's post correctly, he's saying Tinker was wrong, which means that in his view wearing a MAGA hat SHOULD get you kicked out of school. This seems like a surprising position for Blackman to take. Josh, is that what you really believe?
" What's your authority for saying that wearing a MAGA hat gets you kicked out of school?"
Vivid imagination, plus nasty persecution complex.
“You're too young to know what this decision meant.”
And you’re too generous.
"Peace" Armband? thanks for putting it in Quotes so we know you're not serious.
Seems I remember being taught that the "Peace" sign was a Broken Cross, warn by followers of Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, or even worse, Ted Kennedy (who gets a bad rap, "Left a girl to drown in his Car", Mary Jo Kopeckney, asphyxiated, NOT drowned, there's a differecne)
and if Teddy had known the Political Advantages of Glioblastomas's he'd have pretended to have one years ago, instead of wearing that ridiculous Cervical Collar. (Teddy could even blame it on his Arduous Army Service during the Korean War (era) on the Frontlines of Paris, France.
So yeah, I don't miss the "Peace" signs, where I come from, you're a "Piece" if you wear one..
Frank "War, it's how we'll cure Cancer (Hey, if it wasn't for WW2 we wouldn't have Penicillin. Any of you pussies who ever got the Clap, thank Alexander Fleming (and Hitler, since although AF discovered PCN in 1929 it took the WW2 to get it produced in significant quantities.)
In fact, that's my "Cure" for the Ukrainian Wah, release a few hundred Gypsy women (no men, Putin says they have no Homos in Russia) infected with Antibiotic Resistant Gonorrhea, you'll have the whole friggin Red Army in full retreat to Moscow with fire shooting out of their dicks (HT E. Murphy)
Frank
Frank is the reader The Volokh Conspiracy deserves.
Conservative. Illiterate. Disaffected. Bigoted. Resentful. Ready for replacement.
You forgot "angry" and "disrespectful"...
I'm lost as to how wearing a black armband in protest leads to students running amok.
Because it means they’re less likely to show up to kill/die for their government overseas.
At the time the students were wearing armbands, their older brothers were dying overseas in a war which by then was clearly based on lies. Every week there were over 200 American dead reported on TV, with their names in the newspaper. "Peace" and "love" were seen as Communist code words. The words stuck in the throats even of the priests at Mass for whom they should have been the key ideas of the Faith. It was a time when one had to speak out, even when guaranteed the opprobrium of parents, teachers and people in town. Not easy for a teenager to do, in a conservative community like Des Moines.
“The words stuck in the throats even of the priests at Mass for whom they should have been the key ideas of the Faith.“
Could you say a little more on that? The faith angle is really interesting .
We all heard the words "love" and "peace" so much on TV from antiwar demonstrators that they began to take ownership of the words. "Love" is central to the Christian message, and Jesus is the "Prince of Peace". But that was not true any more. Those words in the Bible were seen as bygone terms which were not relevant now. The leading American Catholic at the time was Cardinal Spellman, very pro Vietnam War.
You might look up that book "None Dare Call It Treason", which made the rounds where I was. One of the symbols on the cover was the peace symbol. Even my girlfriend passed a note to me in class: a peace symbol subtitled "footprint of the American Chicken". It was a common joke at the time. She assumed I would find it funny. Well, no. Another good friend of mine, who I met in church, gave me a book, "This Apocalyptic Age", which all but declared that the antiwar movement was engineered by Satan. How does a kid act when there is not a single person in his world, not even your friends, who thinks like he does? I was inspired by people I saw on TV and read about in the papers, but in geographical terms they were far away, one could not contact them in those pre-internet days, and I didn't meet any until I went away to college. (I then saw how people act who grew up where being liberal and antiwar was easy because all the grownups were too; I began to see them as no different than the people from back home, only left wing instead of right, but that's a different story.)
Well I could go on and on with this, as you might guess, but thanks for asking.
Thank you for this. I’ve heard of the first book, not the second.
I went to HS in a relatively conservative town during the Iraq War. Opinion was probably evenly divided about it among students and teachers.
Nothing ever felt tense though. Probably due to a lack of a draft and the (only in comparison to Vietnam) lower American casualties.
That is true.
Iraq was the "easy" war. No draft. No sacrifice by ordinary Americans. Bush vetoed the idea of higher taxes. Let Americans enjoy themselves, he said.
"Our soldiers they answered the call
While the rest of us went to the mall."
"I went to HS in a relatively conservative town during the Iraq War."
I was fortunate to go to HS during a period of peace (relatively). Reagan pulled the Marines out of Beirut rather than leaving them there to be shot at. There was some war run-up with Libya, but they didn't do too well against American carrier aviators and then we sent a bombing strike at them out of England. (The planes went the long way around Europe so they didn't have to fly through anyone's airspace.)
You should see it you can publish an essay in this somewhere. (Hell, even in Reason). What Tinker meant to a student would be fascinating and instructive.
So much can be said, now that we have the internet, that could not have been said before.
My son has a degree in "oral history". Those of us of a certain age read things these days and say, "It wasn't like that at all!" He interviews people who remember things from the pre-internet age that didn't get into print. Some of those old guys are inventing lies but much of what they say was unreported truth.
Anyway, thanks for the compliment. At the moment I have a web site but it's devoted to my erotic fiction (and it's not juvenile or gross). Maybe I'll start a site as to my real person someday. At the moment, my problem is finding a f**king job! I could have used the connections I grew up with, including a judge who was a good friend of my father's, but that meant making jokes with clients as to n***ers and c**ts and f*gs, and I couldn't play that game.
*on
When thinking of the he whims and caprices of the loudest-mouthed, but perhaps not the brightest, students, I note that Republican Nixon ended the Kennedy/Johnson Democrat War Against Asians yet many relics from the 1960s hail both Kennedy and Johnson while vilifying Nixon: the ignorant loud-mouths grew up and now infest many roles in government and business while many of their wise and humble peers fell to the sword.
One might ask "How long halt ye between two opinions? if YHWH be God, follow him: but if Ba'al, then follow him." The golden statute of Sherman -- Central Park's Idol of Ba'al -- survives on display while monuments to Robert E. Lee are currently hidden.
I disagree with Black's dissent. Allow the ignorant to speak. Taunt the unwise by urging them to "Shout louder!" Let the unwise cry aloud and cut themselves with knives and lancets, as is their custom: ultimately, no one will answer, no one will pay attention. (And probably no one will read 1 Kings 18:23-38.)
"I note that Republican Nixon ended the Kennedy/Johnson Democrat War Against Asians yet many relics from the 1960s "
That's some selective memory you have. Nixon campaigned on his secret plan to end the war in 1968. He withdrew forces from Vietnam in 1973. It took 5 years because the strategy of running away with our tails tucked between our legs has a lot of details to work out, like how do we cover up the fact that we bombed a totally different country trying to force the insurgents to come negotiate with us to end the war.
Eisenhower was the first US President to send US troops to Vietnam.
Well, that really depends on what you mean by troops.
Truman was the first US president to send military personnel to Vietnam (35 military advisors, along with an initial $35 million dollar military aid package of hardware, and further infusions of cash). I'm not sure I'd call those 'troops', but they're as much 'troops' as the ~700-1000 military advisors Eisenhower sent over.
The first US military personnel in Vietnam who engaged in combat were under Kennedy (military advisors engaged in clandestine military operations). The first true combat troops were under Johnson.
"Well, that really depends on what you mean by troops."
This isn't one of those hard-to-define words. "Troops" refers to people currently serving in the uniformed, armed services (such as, say, the U.S. Army)
What Nixon ended up with in 1973 was basically the deal Johnson could have gotten in 1968 if Nixon's people hadn't interfered with the peace talks. The 1968 election was a very close and the failure of the talks probably handed it to Nixon.
Haldeman's diaries showed that Nixon decided to deliberately let the war go on for almost his whole first term, and not get serious about negotiating until just before the 1972 election. His thinking was that if he got a negotiated peace in 1970 or 1971, and it fell through, that would hurt him in 1972. I remember Kissinger's dramatic announcement on October 27, 1972 that "peace is at hand". He deliberately had the lights down low and the lectern light on his face, as if he was rushing a bulletin to us in the middle of the night.
Obviously Justice Black was wrong, the biggest threat to our nations youth isn't protest and a lack of adherence to the education establishment, it's thinking the education establishment has our nation's children at the top of their agenda rather than political indoctrination and grooming.
And just to be clear, my definition of grooming is adults talking about sexual topics with prepubescent, and pubescent children without their parents knowledge or permission.
Fuck off with this grooming redefinition bullshit.
Seriously, fuck conflating teaching stuff you don't like with pedophilia.
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Fuck off with your cavalier dismissal of seriously creepy and dangerous behavior as just "stuff you don't like".
There are no excuses for teaching sexuality to 4 or 5 year olds. Children of that age do not have a sexual identity and won't develop one for years. Trying to impress specific sexual views - especially "alternate" ones - on children like that is exactly what sexual groomers do.
You think I'm joking? What does the US DOJ about sexual grooming:
And what signs of sexual grooming are there? Well, here's a big one:
Sure, the teacher discussing their sex life and preferences with 1st and 2nd graders probably isn't sexually grooming them. But it's still inappropriate and falls way outside the bounds of "teaching stuff you don't like".
What the fuck is wrong with you that you try to defend that?
I'm not saying it's the best thing.
I'm saying it's not fucking kids.
That's why it's called "grooming" rather than "child rape".
Yeah if you ever worked on a sex crime case you’d know what grooming is. And none of what has become popular on the right to describe as grooming involves grooming.
For years I represented the Catholic Church in sex abuse cases. You are quite right about grooming. In many cases it never gets to the point of sexual contact. A boy is picked out for special treatment, outings, hanging out, hugs, etc., etc. Most priests, despite their frustrated sexual desires, don't take the big final step to sexual contact. At that point the threat of Hell is pointing at them too directly.
The illiteracy of right-wing hayseeds has consequences.
This 'grooming' craze is one of them.
It's nothing replacement won't solve.
‘That’s why I said get into the boxcars and not the Holocaust.’
No one is buying it.
The only thing nobody is buying is your continued gaslighting.
You can pretend that compelled premature sexualization isn't what it is, but the rest of us can see more clearly than you. We can see the intent of "The GayBCs" and similar books being shoveled into schools, and we can put two and two together (unlike California's schoolchildren, apparently -- the state decided it was more important to stunt their social development than to teach them anything).
Have you idiots ever wondered why everything you see has a brown hue?
You have shit in your eyes from sticking your heads in places they wasn’t anatomically meant to go.
No, we're just pointing out that some people are awfully dedicated to defending child abuse on the basis that this particular abuse does not literally involve intercourse with the children.
Don't devalue the term child abuse for your partisan culture warring.
You can see the intent? This is why this is bad.
Seeing a child molester where none exists is a recipe for violence against innocents.
"You can pretend that compelled premature sexualization isn't what it is"
And you can pretend that talking about sex to prepare people to make intelligent decisions about the subject, when or if the issue comes up is "compelled premature sexualization".
Ultimately, every person will eventually be presented with a decision of whether or not to engage in sexual behavior. Ideally, the people coming up on this decision will have some idea of how to avoid conceiving children they aren't prepared for. The sex-ed programs preferred by Conservatives (AKA, either "no sex-ed in schools, wait for the parents to take care of it" or "abstinence-only sex-ed" are both demonstrably unable to achieve the fundamental goal of preparing children to make good decisions about sex. Accordingly, in areas where the children are saddled with schools that teach this way, you get higher teen pregnancy rates, and they have to keep lowering the age at which girls can get married. Because if she's married, it's not sex abuse of a minor, right?)
Toranth. Do you have a citation? I am butting heads with my local school district over such a matter.
The problem is that right wingers define anything that mentions the existence of homosexuality as "discussing their sex life." A book or movie that merely has a gay couple in it is considered "sexually explicit" to the people saying "grooming grooming grooming."
Actually the more I think about this, the more infuriating this casual “groomer” accusation is becoming.
Grooming children for sexual abuse is typically done in silence. Silence enforced by fear and intimidation that’s often masked by favors and special treatment. Secrecy is the predator’s weapon.
And when the predator is powerful or connected it becomes a conspiracy of silence among his protectors.
But these idiots are out here claiming that very public acts like classroom discussion and popular movies are “grooming.”
And not only that, as trustworthy adults become fearful of discussing sexual topics due to the groomer accusation, kids aren’t going to be equipped to get help and discuss their own victimization. They won’t realize what’s happening to them isn’t normal and will have another layer of fear of telling imposed upon them by society in addition to the one imposed by the abuser.
People think they’re protecting kids with this “groomer” bullshit, but they’re just (re)-creating the social and cultural conditions for powerful predators to prevail.
Man. These people are assholes.
Great post!
Now do "racism".
"Man. These people are assholes."
It's bad when people abuse the race card as well.
But also not comparable - racism is a bad ideology; grooming is a particularized act.
Also also, if you need to dip into whataboutism to defend something, maybe it's not actual defensible and you should not do it.
What's up with thinking it's ok to talk about sex with young children behind their parents back?
What the hell is wrong with you?
If you think it should be talked about, ask the parents permission, and tell them what you think needs to be said, then maybe you'll get the go ahead.
But doing it behind the parents back, well I call that sexual grooming of young children.
And by the way, do you think priests, or scout leaders molesting children was more prevalent that teachers? Why was there such an outcry attacking the Catholic Church and Scouts as institutions, but with teachers it was just anecdotal?
Its not fucking kids. Don't say a thing is fucking kids when it's not fucking kids.
Jesus.
I hate to be all Potter Stewart on this, but it really is the case that “you know it when you see it,” and also like Stewart, who people forget came to this conclusion in that case, “this is not that.”
If you actually have experience with the litigation of a sex crime involving minors you’d realize that none of what right-wingers call grooming today is grooming.
And honestly this blasé attitude about this is going to make them miss the signs when it’s actually happening. They’re going to be (are) so obsessed with what teachers or Disney are saying about LGBTQ issues one or two times that they’re going to ignore the signs when a relative or a pastor or a favorite teacher/coach is cultivating a sexual relationship with a child and using fear/intimidation or “rewards” to keep them silent.
LTG....In your own words, please explain what observable behaviors constitute 'sexual grooming'. I will assume that you have experience here, so I would like to better understand what your experience tells you 'sexual grooming' is.
The Potter Stewart test is one of my favorites. I used it with my teenagers from time to time. 🙂
Toranth cited this: Discussing sexually explicit information under the guise of education.
Is it wrong?
Grooming is about someone laying a foundation for a child to accept having sex with *that someone.*
Teaching kids that sex is a thing, or that homosexuality is a thing, are both well outside that path.
I'm not saying lets teach kindergarteners about anal, but I really do not like deploying accusations of pedophilia when there's nothing like that here.
It depends on what is said and what grade level it is said to. That's why I keep asking for examples.
I would also bet good money that in the next few years some prominent “it’s grooming” voice is going to be prosecuted for sex crimes against kids.
Indeed. I'm reminded of the 2006 midterms and Mark Foley.
Does Mr. Gaetz count?
Grooming is not "fucking kids" so stop lying and saying it is.
Grooming is when you target a kid you want to fuck and prepare them to be fucked by you.
You are the one making up a new definition so you can just-the-tip QAnon at Democrats.
" Why was there such an outcry attacking the Catholic Church and Scouts as institutions, "
Get an education, you bigoted, worthless, right-wing gape-jaw. Start with the difference between raping children and whatever delusional wingnuttery you're mumbling about.
This guy is precisely the commenter the Volokh Conspiracy deserves. And attracts.
Carry on, clingers.
You are off the deep end here, Kazinski,
Well the way to get me out of the pool is to quit asserting the right to talk to young children about sex behind their parents backs.
That's shouldn't be too hard should it?
You can say something is bad without saying that those who do it are planning to fuck those kids.
"Well the way to get me out of the pool is to quit asserting the right to talk to young children about sex behind their parents backs."
You mean like the right guaranteed by "Congress shall make no law...abridging freedom of speech"
that's the right you want people to stop asserting?
Examples with citations, please.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/teacher-complains-online-learning-lets-parents-see-what-happens-at-gender-sexuality-lessons/
Although the teacher expressed a legitimate concern (*), I think there ought to be a dialogue between administrators, teachers and parents to chart the best path.
(*) Any claim the teacher was "grooming" rather than raising a legitimate concern is nonsense.
I do find the teacher's expressed view there misguided, but nothing in there remotely matches what Josh asked you about.
The teacher's fundamental concern was being able to talk about his students' sexuality behind their parents' backs.
The teacher's fundamental concern was being able to have a free exchange about sexuality (not the students' sexuality).
Some people just want to pretend that sex doesn't exist, and have convinced themselves that if nobody talks about in front of the kids, the kids will never work out the mechanics of it.
Maybe it is me, but a lot of these grown adults that like to lecture us about children, the sexuality of children, their genitals, pumping kids full of drugs, and disfiguring them for life with surgeries are a little strange looking and act like they might have an ulterior motive...
Just sayin'.....
No wonder the deans at UCLA, Georgetown, and a few other strong, mainstream law schools wish they had hired fewer movement conservatives who like to operate wingnut blogs.
"Maybe it is m"
Maybe it definitely IS you.
"And just to be clear, my definition of grooming is adults talking about sexual topics with prepubescent, and pubescent children without their parents knowledge or permission."
I hate to tell you this, but the pubescent children are talking about sex without their parents permission regardless of what the schools try to teach them.
Let them. My definition said "adults".
If you agree they're already talking amongst themselves, having a knowledgeable adult seems a good idea.
Like, we had this sex ed discussion 30 years ago. Which was about when homosexuals were equated with pedophiles; not a great moment for the right-wing all around.
IOW, you've drifted a lot farther than your original thesis to 'pubescent children shouldn't get sex ed.' The puritans lost that war, albeit after far too may teen pregnancies.
The problem isn't free speech in schools. It is leftists. Clean out the garbage and problem solved.
Just don't trap students in the government's schools; They're always going to be a target for capture so long as they're mandatory indoctrination camps.
The only cure is school choice, without it it's only a question of whose indoctrination camps they'll be, not whether.
That is a good idea. The funding is attached to the child. The child may attend any school that is accredited in the world.
The bottom line is when you have a society full of leftist agitators like we have allowed to fester over the last 100 years is you can have no nice things. It doesn't matter in the end if the schools are run by the government. The problem is the government schools are run by leftists, so instead of dealing with the cancer, we just do an end run around the problem. This worked up until about the 90's when the leftists then just took over the private schools as well.
Leftism is a cancer and it needs to be treated as such. If we can extract the octopus tentacles of that tumor on society, then we can start having nice things again.
Drifting towards the unsubtle intimations of violence again, eh?
Who said anything about violence? I just said a society with malevolent leftists can't have nice things. And logically if you would like nice things then you got to get rid of those leftists...
I'll miss you less.
Leftism is a cancer and it needs to be treated as such
You're so bad at hiding it.
" I just said a society with malevolent leftists can't have nice things."
Where would we be without a Mr. theDane to point out where all the melevolent leftists are hiding? Under the beds, behind all the trees,...
"The bottom line is when you have a society full of leftist agitators like we have allowed to fester over the last 100 years is you can have no nice things."
It's the leftists' fault that you're a loser. Whatever.
Education pointers from antisocial, autistic, bigoted, right-wing conspiracy theorists are always a treat for the modern American mainstream.
"Just don't trap students in the government's schools; They're always going to be a target for capture so long as they're mandatory indoctrination camps."
You were fine with mandatory indoctrination camps when they were exclusively using YOUR doctrine.
It wasn't "indoctrination" then. It was called teaching useful knowledge such as math and science, not gender bender studies and white people are all racist workshops.
"It wasn't 'indoctrination' then"
The hell it wasn't. You just went along with it.
"The only cure is school choice, without it it's only a question of whose indoctrination camps they'll be, not whether."
So that they can get indoctrination from sources the parents prefer.
somebody's unhappy that the indoctrination camps aren't using his preferred indoctrination.
The unfortunate part is that while there a few good points buried in the dissent (I wouldn't agree with the overall conclusion, but can concede that), their force is completely diminished by the overblown rhetoric. Don't ever write like this, it's completely unconvincing and does a disservice to whoever you think you're advocating on behalf of.
Black was over 80 by then and was losing his sense of proportion.
Wait. I just looked at the case.
Some kids wore black armbands to protest the Vietnam War and Black thought it was the end civilized society. Insane.
And Blackman, not to mention a number of the commenters, here, think Black was clearly right.
WTF is wrong with you people, especially Blackman. How is a fool like that teaching.
" How is a fool like that teaching."
Who is the bigger fool, the fool who leads or the fools that follow?
There's really nothing like "law and order" issues to highlight the thin protection that the Constitution manages to provide. Black and millions of others were prepared to trample on obvious rights of free speech in order to protect that 'order.' In Black's case, it was a long and deep devotion to 'order' over liberty: he wrote the majority opinion in Korematsu.
Strictly speaking, Korematsu was never overridden.
Strictly speaking, you're wrong.
"Korematsu was gravely wrong the day it was decided, and has been overruled in the court of history, and—to be clear—has no place in law under the Constitution."
Korematsu was gravely wrong when decided. And it landed on the trash heap of history. But it wasn't overridden.
DMN's quote looks a lot like overruling to me.
There's no magic words in American law.
There are rather a lot of magic words in American law, quite a few of them in Latin.
Uh, you apparently published this April Fool's piece a week too late.
Imagine that -- Josh thinks that a former Klan leader was right on suppressing liberal speech.