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S.C. A.G.: City Can't Ban Sexual Orientation / Gender Identity Change Therapy for Minors
The South Carolina Attorney General's opinion, issued last week, is here; here's the Conclusion, though you'll see that the A.G. acknowledges that there's a split of opinion among federal appellate courts on the subject:
While courts have reached varying conclusions regarding whether an ordinance [or statute] banning conversion therapy violates the First Amendment, we think a court is likely to conclude that the First Amendment is infringed by the Columbia ordinance. The Eleventh Circuit decision in Otto, which concluded that the First Amendment is violated in such circumstances, is well reasoned, and follows the Supreme Court's decision in NIFLA. As the Court in Otto concluded, "[p]eople have intense moral, religious, and spiritual views about these matters—on all sides. And that is exactly why the First Amendment does not allow communities to determine how their neighbors may be counseled about matters of sexual orientation or gender." We agree.
The NIFLA Court had recognized that "professional speech" is "not a separate category of speech and "is not unprotected merely because it is uttered by "professionals."' According to the NIFLA Court, "content-based regulations 'in the fields of medicine and public health'" can be particularly dangerous. In our view, the Columbia ordinance is content-based, and thus would be subject to strict scrutiny. Under such an exacting standard, the Columbia ordinance is likely to be struck down by a court. As discussed above, our Supreme Court invalidated a Hilton Head ordinance prohibiting nude or semi-nude dancing as content-based. Thus, it is our opinion that a South Carolina court would likely follow these decisions and deem the Columbia ordinance invalid as violative of the First Amendment.
In addition, there is the issue of the power of a local government to regulate or legislate in an area which is also regulated or licensed by the State. Our Supreme Court has consistently held that a local government is impliedly preempted under its Home Rule powers as to any regulation "which requires statewide uniformity." See S.C. Const. Art. VIII, § 14. In Vazzo v. City of Tampa, the District Court concluded that the regulation of conversion therapy is prohibited at the local level because the "substantive regulation of psychotherapy" is "a state, not a municipal concern." Thus, a court, employing this analysis, may well deem that an ordinance, such as that adopted by of the City of Columbia, is impliedly preempted as an attempt to regulate a statewide area of concern rather than a local matter. Moreover, inasmuch as a $500 fine is imposed for each "offense," a court may see the ordinance as making unlawful a lawful activity under state law..
Of course, our opinion herein expresses no view either favoring or opposing conversion therapy or an ordinance banning such activity. Such are policy questions for the General Assembly. We strongly support equal dignity for all. We simply advise herein with respect to what a court is most likely to conclude if, the Columbia ordinance, or one similar to it, is challenged in court. We believe a court is likely to hold that the Columbia ordinance is invalid as suppressing free speech and also that the ordinance is an effort to exercise powers which a municipality does not possess. Moreover, the Columbia ordinance is likely overly broad, and even void for vagueness. It would, of course, be up to a court to invalidate the ordinance as such authority does not rest with this Office.
While we appreciate and respect the efforts of the City of Columbia in protecting equal dignity for all persons, the City cannot adopt an ordinance that likely violates the State and federal Constitutions. The right to free speech and free expression and thought cannot be undermined or violated, even for a salutary purpose.
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Mutilating little children with drugs and permanent surgery = BRAVE
Trying to talk the gay out of a consenting adult who voluntarily seeked you out = CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY
I wanted to be a pilot, then a police officer, then whatever I read about the glamor of the next occupation. Sex changes under 18 should get the child removed from the home for the most extreme form of physical child abuse imaginable, hideous surgeries that violate the Helsinki Principles. These surgeries will result in a tripling of the suicide and of suicidal ideas in these mentally ill children.
A lot/most of it is the mentally ill 'parent' imposing their views on the child.
Meanderings of a moronic madman.
Hi, Queenie, do you have tenure?
Hi, Queenie. At what age did you know you were born with the wrong body?
Hi, Queenie. What work have you had done?
I've no 'work done' and have explained that before you imbecilic incel. My handle is just a handle referring to a mythical goat which I thought sounded cool. Do you think QuantumBoxCat is a cat or TwelveInchPianist is a foot tall musician? You're a semi-Epsilon moron.
"Do you think QuantumBoxCat is a cat or TwelveInchPianist is a foot tall musician?"
No, I think he's a musician that plays a foot tall piano. 🙂
Queen Amalthea
February.23.2022 at 6:30 pm
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"Meanderings of a moronic madman."
Queen - you are correct - It is truely the meanderings of a moronic madman that would embrace the drugging of a minor (or an adult) and mutilation as a cure for the mental illness of the person (and/or the parent the
Can I call any complex thing I don't understand "mental illness" like you do? Because it seems like a really simple and intellectually lazy way to denigrate something you aren't informed enough to judge.
"tripling of the suicide"
Actually I think studies show their suicide rates are like 20x higher.
Hyperbole much? Pretending that small children are routinely undergoing sex reassignment surgery while also pretending that gay conversion therapy is just benign conversation is either first-rate ignorance or, if you know better and say it anyway, bald-faced lying.
Well it certainly isn't going down or remaining steady
https://blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/files/2019/02/figure-1.png
According to some surveys 40% of kids now identify as the supposedly 100% biologically determined/but not really LGBKLEJRLJFLKDFLDFLKJFLDLKFLLDFJKLDJFMLDJFLDFLJDF
https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-40-percent-us-gen-zs-30-percent-christians-identify-lgbtq-poll-shows-1641085
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that 'gender affirmation' among kids is bigger than the 'pray away the gay' you guys are always so hopping mad about.
"'gender affirmation' among kids is bigger than the 'pray away the gay' you guys are always so hopping mad about."
He asked about sex reassignment surgery which remains very, very, very rare.
I'm actually interested in hard numbers backing up or refuting your statement. Oddly they are surprisingly hard to find. They have complicated formalized protocols for drug therapy which renders permanent changes on minors so I doubt its that rare. From the available evidence I'd say its probably in the thousands perhaps 10s of thousands or more. Actual surgery (not that irreversible drug therapy is much better) would probably be rarer but I doubt it would qualify for the very very very rare label if it was something you cared about.
You don't know and yet would yet like to speculate, of course. Even were it in the thousands there are 75 million children in the US, so yes, very, very very rare.
Amos:
First question: Why do you care?
Follow-up question: Why is your opinion relevant to someone else's life?
Amos, you left out the other 500 ways to love from your alphabet list.
Uh, Captain Kneejerk, this is about the SC AG saying Columbia can't have an ordinance forbidding talk therapy aiming to sway children away from homosexuality.
While we appreciate and respect the efforts of the City of Columbia in protecting equal dignity for all persons
In what way were these efforts attempting to protect "equal dignity for all persons?"
They wanted to outlaw an entire class of people and persecute them in the name of the law. You don't get further from "equal dignity" than that.
I suppose when you get around to writing a law on what Texas' AG is up to it will be presented as a desire to improve health care of all children. That's what Paxton says he's doing anyway so it must be true.
They wanted to outlaw an entire class of people and persecute them in the name of the law.
What class of people are you claiming the statute in question outlawed and persecuted?
I think this reasoning may come to have interesting implications for professional licensure. If the state can't regulate speech just because it's professional in nature, then under what logic can it deny, say, a medical license to a shaman? After all, that's between the practitioner and the patient.
Fir that matter, at this point why can't a 13-year-old rent a car, take out a mortgage, or get married?
And at the end of this rainbow, it's clear that the way to social acceptance is now to threaten and intimidate public officials until they endorse your politics out of simple self ppreservation. That's going to be fun in a few years.
Fixed that for the AG
Gay conversion therapy is harmful if unwanted. To provide a right to a therapist to impose their religious beliefs on their patients is very wrong. We are rapidly reaching a point where religious freedom" means the right to hurt others.
And can you document it ever being used on an unwilling patient?
Unwilling patient? All the time. Unwilling parent? Never.
Minor children routinely don't get a say in their own medical treatment. I see no reason this treatment should be any different.
Depends on the age. An 8 yo would have little say, but a 14 yo can say no. Also there is a very solid argument that conversion therapy on an unwilling minor is child abuse.
There's a solider argument that puberty blockers and 'gender affirming' surgery are child abuse.
Not really. Those treatments are considered accepted and common medical treatments.
It’s also FGM if done on a female.
Uh, yeah, that's not apt at all, you might as well say that what Angelina Jolie did was just like what the Amazons used to do.
I don't know what Angeline Jolie did, but it's been a long time since she's been a child.
If you are referring to her double mastectomy, that is a pretty srude comment just for the sake of bullshitting without a drink or a joint.
Once again, the fallacy of young children regularly undergoing gender reassignment surgery is used to justify the brutal techniques used to "cure" homosexuality. Which, as any rational person knows, isn't a disease, isn't a problem, and can't be 'cured".
Nelson
February.23.2022 at 7:48 pm
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Once again, the fallacy of young children regularly undergoing gender reassignment surgery is used to justify the brutal techniques used to "cure" homosexuality. Which, as any rational person knows, isn't a disease, isn't a problem, and can't be 'cured".
Serious torture of the english langauge
gay conversion therapy is brutal
but drugging/psychiatric abuse and subsequent mutilation of the human body is compasionate
You make my point.
I've yet to say anything for or against gender reassignment surgery. I've only pointed out that cultural conservatives misrepresent what it is, what it takes to get it, who gets it, what ages get it and, of course, calling it mental illness.
Gender reassignment is completely unrelated to gay conversion therapy. Why do you keep trying to create some false equivalence?
So you think one form of abuse justifies another?
Strange logic.
That's my point. For some reason those who oppose other people's life choices think that it's a vaild argument for why "pray away the gay" (where "pray" includes some pretty brutal techniques beyond prayer) is OK. It doesn't make sense to me, either.
Gender reassignment surgery is a years-long process that involves multiple medical professionals, including psychiatric care throughout the process.
The number of minors undergoing this process is vanishingly small (somewhere between several dozen to about a hundred, from what I've been able to find). Pre-pubescent children undergoing the process are almost non-existent.
Fortunately, cultural conservatives don't let minor things like the facts get in the way of their moral outrage and false narratives. It allows us to have yet another manufactured outrage to focus on instead of addressing any problems that actually exist.
"psychiatric care "
You mean care by a failed profession.
My 16 year old stepson despises taking pills for any condition. I guess I should just tell him the meds his doctor prescribed him can be ignored since he does not want to take them. Sure, he will become sicker if he does not, but still...
And I like how puberty blockers ARE NOT child abuse.
Because “gay conversion” isn’t medical treatment, torturous pseudoscience.
*it’s
Nearly all therapy is "pseudoscience".
Of course you would say that. I sincerely hope you or someone you love doesn’t need mental health care at some point. Because you’ll eat crow (as usual).
Caw Caw
Therapy is good for the therapist.
Again: I hope you or someone you love or care for doesn’t experience grief from a devastating and unexpected loss, trauma from accident or crime, major depression, major anxiety, suicidal thoughts, addictions, etc.
In fact I’d bet good money that there are people you know and care for who benefited from therapy.
No, his statement is accurate.
Almost none of the research in psychology can be duplicated, and psychiatry is worse. We're talking greater than 90% failure rates, here. The vast, vast majority of research in those subjects is bunk - calling it "pseudoscience" is giving it too much credit.
The old joke amongst statisticians:
Physicists says "Anecdotes are not data"
Sociologists say "Enough anecdotes are like data"
Psychiatrists say "Data is plural?!"
Citation for 90% of research in psychiatry not being able to be duplicated?
You're aware that non-duplication of peer-reviewed science is a known significant issue, correct?
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/27/17761466/psychology-replication-crisis-nature-social-science
Oh, and it's not just psychology.
The replication crisis is a thing for the "hard" sciences like physics too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis
Replication is a 2/3 problem - and it is a problem. It's not 90% like Toranth tossed off.
Matthew,
1) I missed the discussion about physics in the wikipedia article.
2) Typically in physics one ideally wants to see the same hypothesis or physics measured using a method with very different potential systematic errors
Typically claims of discovery in physics are not stated in p-values but in standard deviations away fro a previous measurement or theory
Your assertion is not documentation. Since you don't provide any cite to any source, I will take that as a no.
For most of our history unwilling gay persons were sent to mental institutions where they often faced some pretty terrible 'treatments' for their 'afflictions.'
That is true, but those treatments are not what is today referred to as "gay conversion therapy", so I don't consider it at all relevant to the question at hand.
MollyGodiva
February.23.2022 at 6:16 pm
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"Gay conversion therapy is harmful if unwanted. "
Gay conversion therapy is temporary
Gender transistion surgery is permanment and vastly more harmful
Torture is just a temporary thing, so it's OK. And if the gay comes back we can just do it again.
Or you can acknowledge that homosexuality is natural and an integral part of a person's biology and stop trying to force children to conform to your biases.
Nelson
February.24.2022 at 10:23 am
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"Torture is just a temporary thing, so it's OK. And if the gay comes back we can just do it again.
Or you can acknowledge that homosexuality is natural and an integral part of a person's biology and stop trying to force children to conform to your biases."
Truely demented in your embracement and justification for the drugging and potential mutilation creating irreversable damage to a child.
I said nothing about gender reassignment surgery. Why are you pretending that I did?
I'm commenting on gay conversion therapy, which has a brutal history and is based on the idea that gay can be "cured".
The two things are mutually exclusive.
Now that the USWNT soccer team got equal pay I’m considering chopping my balls off and trying to make the team. If USWNT achieves its true goal of getting access to the men’s World Cup pot I will chop my balls off because that is song $$$$$$$. 😉
I think the USMNT hasn't been dipping much into the men's World Cup balls and all in recent years.
The agreement just made the base pay equal. Performance bonuses are still just for the team that wins.
Plus, of.course, even if the women were to be allowed to share the men's performance bonuses, they would earn an extra $0 because the women are perennial champions and the men suck.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, just trying (with a hernia-inducing level of strain) to be cute.
Is there any evidence that conversion therapy actually works? I can’t imagine trying to talk straight men into being gay would have much success, so why would anyone think it would work going in the other direction?
Because made them straight and the devil, who is less powerful, makes them gay.
Duh.
I would have to think that it could work at least at the margins, when the orientation hasn't been in place for a long while. It would be pretty strange if everybody at every point along the spectrum had their orientation set in concrete from the very beginning, no?
And there's actually good reason to think it possible that it would be easier to turn a gay into a straight, than the other way around; Heterosexuality is the norm for a reason: It's selected for by evolution. We literally have genetically specified neural mechanisms making us be attracted to the opposite sex.
Deviations from heterosexuality could quite easily be just the mechanism being weakened so that the orientation is destabilized, and subject to environmental influences. If that were the case, most heterosexuals would be rather immovable about it, while gays would be more subject to alteration.
JFC
You don't respond well to reason, do you?
You’re “reasoning” in defense of pseudoscience and speculation I.e. absolute nonsense. And no I don’t respond well to it.
Brett, there’s precious little reason in what you just said.
Biologically, the question about homosexuality is not why, but rather why not, since sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Any male can have as much gay sex as he wants and still have plenty left over for procreation. So even acknowledging that procreation is important, gay sex doesn’t really interfere with it. My bisexual father had nine kids.
Plus homosexuality is found in an overwhelming number of species.
Your science is just wrong.
But he's an engineer!!
"Biologically, the question about homosexuality is not why, but rather why not, since sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive."
And diseases like AIDS are such a minor issue, too! Why, there are no downsides biologically at all to exposing yourself to pathogens with no reproductive opportunity.
"Plus homosexuality is found in an overwhelming number of species."
So are all sorts of other birth defects.
Eating meat exposes us to all sorts of pathogens we could avoid by being vegetarians. Having urban areas allows diseases of all kinds spread faster than they otherwise would. And in much of the world, including sub-Saharan Africa, AIDS is primarily a disease of heterosexuals. So I look forward to hearing your disease-based theory of why we need to all become vegan rural-dwellers who don't have sex at all.
"Eating meat exposes us to all sorts of pathogens we could avoid by being vegetarians."
That's why we invented cooking. It let you eat meat safely.
And that's why we discovered safe sex. So people can have sex without getting AIDS (or unwanted pregnancies, if you're straight).
I would have to think that it could work at least at the margins, when the orientation hasn't been in place for a long while. It would be pretty strange if everybody at every point along the spectrum had their orientation set in concrete from the very beginning, no?
Why would you "have to think" so? Do you have any evidence that it works? If not, what are you talking about?
And suppose - contrary to fact - that it might work in a very small of cases, "at the margin," as you say. Do you want to take into account the very great damage it clearly does when it doesn't work, and weigh that against whatever benefit you imagine might accrue to the patient when it does?
You're making shit up, because again you feel compelled to be an expert on everything.
I just love the way procedures you don't like, even if they just consist of talk therapy, are "brutal", but hormonal interventions are perfectly harmless.
Look at what you're saying: You can't even bear the thought that the question might be open to discussion, might not be settled! You not only think you're right, you think you're unquestionably right, no doubt, no room for error, no ambiguities. We don't even know all the biological mechanisms of sex orientation yet, and you have absolute certainty that brooks no exploration of alternatives.
This isn't science speaking, it's a pseudo-religious faith!
Brett, suppose I'm a quack selling snake oil to cure cancer. And suppose that even though my snake oil mostly doesn't work, I manage to find one person somewhere who took it and got better. That doesn't change the fact that for the most part, what I'm selling is quackery. Or that the one person whom it may have helped cancels out all the other people it didn't.
Conversion therapy is snake oil. It's the medical equivalent of being a sovereign citizen. You might find someone somewhere who managed to convince a court of a sovereign citizen argument, but for the most part, making those arguments simply leaves them worse off than they were before. As does conversion therapy.
Krychek_2
February.24.2022 at 6:25 am
Flag Comment Mute User
:Conversion therapy is snake oil."
Gender transition is also snake oil - but unlike gay conversion therapy it is permanent and creates irreversible damage .
"Heterosexuality is the norm for a reason: It's selected for by evolution. "
I don't think that can be said, lots of evolutionary psychologists have argued that homosexuality could be selected for a significant part of a population.
"We literally have genetically specified neural mechanisms making us be attracted to the opposite sex."
???
It's also true that since humans are social animals, a certain amount of homosexuality is also good for society because not having families and children frees them up to do other things that benefit the community.
That's a "just so" story, nothing more.
Tell your own church that; it's the rationale for celibate priests.
No, group selection is absolutely a thing. They've seen something similar in non-reproducing male monkeys.
But the bottom line is your entire line of argument is flawed. Evolution isn't an optimization process, nor does it set what normal is.
Our brain is too much machine to exist solely to survive and reproduce. It's one of the reasons I believe in God.
Evolution is absolutely an optimization process, a form of hill climbing algorithm.
Not optimization, threshold - your info is about 50 years out of date. Hence punctuated equilibrium, not a slow continual improvement.
Once you're fit enough to survive and reproduce, evolution stops caring what else you got going on.
All sorts of bits and bobs that are not immediately useful to survival remain.
Doesn’t look like it. The only real study in the last twenty years to support the proposition, by Spizter, had lots of flaws, was acknowledged by the author to be of limited utility, and eventually disavowed entirely.
Well what is the Q in LGBTQ stand for?
And if someone is questioning wouldn't talking to a counseler about be OK?
And when you talk to a counselor wouldn't it be a good thing if 'they' could say more than "Of course you are gay."
I don't think it's supposed to stand for questioning.
See gaycenter.org/about/lgbtq:
"LGBTQ is an acronym for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer or questioning."
"The 'Q' in extended versions of the LGBT acronym, such as LGBTQIA+,[22] is *most often considered an abbreviation of queer*. It can also stand for questioning."
Emphasis mine.
The 'Q' in QUERTY means the letter next to the tab key on most keyboard layouts.
Can one of you cultural conservatives help me out? I'm having trouble keeping track of when parents are the only ones who should make decisions for their children and when they should be prevented from making decisions for their children. You people keep changing your minds about parental rights.
I'm sure it's a simple misunderstanding, not hypocrisy, but I could use guidance from someone who understands the secret code.
Basically, irreversible surgical or hormonal alterations of any significant scale, without objective medical justification, should be disfavored, especially for light reasons.
Most cases of gender dysphoria prior to puberty resolve at puberty, unsurprisingly, so acting on them prior to that point is pretty stupid.
I'm not talking about gender reassignment surgery, since that doesn't happen to minors the way the moral panic crowd pretends.
I'm talking about the difference between supporting or denying parental agency based on whether you agree or disagree with what the parent (or school) wants.
It's very similar to the difference berween supporting or denying personal liberty depending on whether you like what people want to do or not.
Fair question, Nelson. I would venture than any answer is dependent on the society in which it is asked.
Personally I think that decision prior to the mean age of pre-puberty (in the society) + three years should require parental consent. In the US certainly before 16 and may even up through 17.
Nelson
February.23.2022 at 6:36 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Can one of you cultural conservatives help me out?"
Cultural conservatives believe in the sanctity of life, not the destruction or mutilation of the human body with harmful drug pseudo therapy or mutilation
Why do all of you self-righteous types keep trying to tell me that I believe in gender reassignment surgery for adults, let alone teens or children? I have made no such statements nor will I. I don't think it has anything to do with me, since it isn't my body, my family, or my business. I'm perfectly comfortable being a straight, white man so the issue is irrelevant to me.
And cultural conservatives believe in forcing everyone else to accept their definition of "sanctity" and "life". I pretty sure you believe a lot more things are "sacred" than I do and I'm certain that your definition of "life" is way broader than most people.
My position is what you believe should be the moral framework for your life, but no one else. The national culture is determined by the consent of the citizens of today, not fifty or sixty or seventy years ago.
I'm not an expert on the efficacy or proper-ness on medical/psychological measures to influence kids sexual orientations or what have you so I'd defer to the experts in the field, but as a legal matter it seems to me that under substantive due process precedents such as Pierce, Meyer, etc., this would fall under the protected sphere of parental rights of upbringing.
Still plenty of bigots in old-timey South Carolina and at the white, male, right-wing ("libertarianish") Volokh Conspiracy.
Carry on, clingers.
Under this opinion, can the state ban a cancer cure that consists of verbally telling the cancer to go away because the state believes the treatment is fraudulent?
I can certainly speak with some experience about why "conversion" therapy would be useful.
I have a young relative that is in his early 20's that lives in another state. When he was a teenager he thought he was gay, then he thought he might be trans, now he lives with his girlfriend and is sure he is hetero.
My wife and I are also friendly with a couple that has a son the same age as ours. The wife was a fully out lesbian for 10 years until she met a male coworker she was attracted to, now they've been married 25 years.
So I think in either of these cases it's clear that being able to talk to a counselor about all their feelings and what they were going through might be useful. And it shouldn't be against the law for a counselor to talk to them about these issues, or only discuss one side.
being able to talk to a counselor about all their feelings and what they were going through might be useful
This is not what conversion therapy is. What you just described is therapy.
Sure it's therapy, and it may include a therapist telling someone they may not really be gay, and spending some time on that topic.
Absolutely right, but it's still not conversion therapy.
It would be a hell of a lot easier to find out what they actually DO during 'conversion therapy' if all the links Google serves up for that question didn't consist of nothing but attacks on the practice.
But apparently it mostly consists of, yes, talking to people.
Look at the word 'conversion.' That's the key.
I'm not sure sexual orientation is immutable in everyone - humans are a complicated and various breed, in sex as much as anything else. In a vacuum I'd be fine with letting folks who wanted to try to change it.
But its practitioners have so far as I've read been nearly universally misery-causing failures, and parents and churches keep forcing people to go through it.
It's worth studying, perhaps. Not worth practicing where we currently are a society.
I'd just give people a choice about it, instead of banning it. It looks an awful lot like the bans are motivated by a fear that it actually might work, and that would be bad.
Sometimes an institution is too corrupted to be the thing it claims to be.
I have no problem with laws that recognize that.
Maybe add a sunset clause of a couple of decades.
As disgusting as I find conversion therapy, as long as it is limited to actual psychological counseling by an actual psychologist/psychologist who follows the ethical standards of therapy, I don't think it should be banned.
Manipulating a patient to deny their sexuality through guilt/shame/threats of ostracism or abandonment by loved ones/physical or psychological damage/deprivation of food, water, or sleep/any other coercive methods should absolutely be banned. That isn't therapy. And yes, all of those things and more have been implicated in conversion therapy carried out by religious leaders.
From what I've heard these sorts of bans on "therapy," at least in Canada and maybe some places in the US, are basically worded in such a way that would criminalize preaching the gospel and teaching the Bible.
That is not the case. That may be how religious people interpret them, but it is not what the laws actually do.
here is onehere is two
here is some
here is some more