Muncie: The Be Nice to Bicyclists City

Muncie (Ind.) Code of Ordinances §§ 74.02, 74.17 forbids, among other things, "Any act which shall unreasonably disturb a bicyclist," "including but not limited to" "engaging in hate speech towards bicyclists." (DeKalb, Illinois, and the much smaller Lapel, Indiana, have similar laws.)

Comments

[dwb68]

Drivers yelling at bicyclists to get off the road is a real problem. Drivers slow down, roll down the window and make a lot of threats. Then move the vehicle real close to the sidewalk. Ask me how I know.

Bicyclists are supposed to use the road (and follow the rules of the road), not the sidewalk where they might run over pedestrians.

In Baltimore, cyclists are knocked off their bikes. Sometimes not by cars, but by gangs of yutes.

Do we need a hate speech law? Hard to say, seems like its covered under attempted assault or something. The real problem is proving it. I don't cycle with a camera. Or a gun for that matter.

[Bob from Ohio]

"(and follow the rules of the road)"

LOL They never ever do that, they run stop signs and red lights and dart in and out of lanes.

[dwb68]

Drivers don't follow the rules of the road either. They cut people off, dart across highways, run stop signs, and red lights. Your drivers license did not come with a license to be a Karen about how other people drive or bike.

[Kevin Smith]

Uh, weren't you just being a Karen about how drivers act toward bicyclists? Besides, drivers follow the rules of the road much better than bicyclists do

[dwb68]

No. Drivers yelling and moving their vehicles to run cyclists off the road is assault with a deadly weapon.

[Bob from Ohio]

"yelling" = "deadly weapon"?

[dwb68]

Second Degree Assault in Maryland [look it up]: Taking such action as to place someone in imminent fear of an offensive touching. This means a threat coupled with the apparent ability to immediately carry out that threat. Say, a threat coupled with a threatening move towards the intended victim or the raising of a fist or an object to be thrown.

I can assure you. They are not yelling how great my ass is [it is] or asking me for by digits.

Yelling and screaming while moving the car closer fits the fact pattern of assault.

[Sarcastr0]

In practice, I never found assault to be charged as it's written by itself. But yeah, assault is not battery!

[Bob from Ohio]

"Drivers don't follow the rules of the road either. "

Sure, but they get cited. Bike riders get away with it.

Every bike rider runs stop signs and red lights, no exception. Every ride.

[dwb68]

LMAO!! "cited"

[Bob from Ohio]

Yes, given tickets.

Not every time but more than bike riders.

[dwb68]

I have no doubt to have solid statistics to back that up.

[Bob from Ohio]

Like you have for the drivers who run you, and only you, off the road constantly.

[dwb68]

Where did I say I was special? Road rage is a problem.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I commuted by bicycle for 10 years or so. I agree with Bob. Far too many cyclists run red lights and stop signs, ride two or three abreast, seem to go out of their way to piss off cars.

But Bob is also wrong. Too many roads have drain grates oriented such that they are not safe to ride over, and cyclists have to ride two fee from the curb, leaving no room for cars to safely pass. At the same time, cities not only make it illegal to ride on sidewalks, or there are enough pedestrians that bicycles are a hazard and should not ride there.

And most signal intersection sensors do not recognize bicycles. I experimented with a few when traffic was light. I could stop right in the middle of the sensor loop, push my bicycle back and forth, for several minutes without any change in the lights, with no other traffic to wait for. The push buttons for pedestrians are always out of the way in the sidewalks where bicycles are forbidden from riding. And if there is only one sensor loop and a bicycle waits there, a car coming from behind will not be able to get into the loop to trigger it, so now both will wait forever.

Most bicycle commuters can easily maintain 20 mph, usually 25, which is close enough to 25 speed limits and 30-35 mph cars that cars should give them a break, but don't.

Cars are far more dangerous to cyclists than vice versa. Drivers who crowd cyclists are a real and daily danger, and they don't need to. When it was raining or I had errands to run, I drove, and making room for cyclists, even slowing down momentarily until I could edge over into the next lane for a safe pass, never cost me more than a few seconds. The asshole cyclists riding two or three abreast always pissed me off, and there were a lot of them.

This was mostly before bicycle lane markings became common. But a lot of bicycle lane markings made it worse, because they made no allowances for drain grates, and now drivers would treat the lane markings as inviolate, crowd right up to the edge, forgetting that their mirrors and my hips/shoulders/handlebars were the same height.

A. There are far more cyclists violating rules of the road than car drivers.

B. Cars are infinitely more dangerous to cyclists than vice versa.

[Joe_dallas]

fwiw

1) very few commuters can maintain 17-18mph, much less 20+
2) I frequently ride 2-4 abreast in a single lane (while in large groups) going anywhere from 22-30+. the 2-3 abreast that you are commenting about are probably doing 15-17.
3) counter intuitive, it is usually safer to ride in the middle of the lane than hugging the curb.

[StellaLink_the dog]

"they run stop signs and red lights and dart in and out of lanes"
As do most automobile drivers

[TwelveInchPianist]

"Drivers yelling at bicyclists to get off the road is a real problem."

If somebody suggests that I should be riding on the sidewalk I tell them I don't want to run over their mother when I get to the corner.

[dwb68]

Honestly I don't care about the mothers or the geese. If they cant hear me ring the bell through their pods, whose problem is that?

I do care about the kids in strollers. They deserve a chance.

[Joe_dallas]

DW - motorists arent going to hear your little ringy dingy thing inside a car with or without their music pods

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

He's talking about pedestrians on the sidewalk.

[Toranth]

Because he's only angry about cars running down bikers, not bikers running down pedestrians.

[StellaLink_the dog]

If cyclists are on the streets, where they belong, pedestrians will be little endangered by cyclists.

[David Bremer]

There's some real irony is listening to a guy get indignant about his right to ride in the middle of the road, faster cars be damned, then turn around and not give a damn about the pedestrians who might hold him up because they ought to hear his bell.

It perfectly captures the mentality of bicyclists, the most self-absorbed, rule-flouting group on the streets.

[Joe_dallas]

DW - if you are having that much of a problem with motorists when you are riding a bike, then you are riding on the wrong roads.

I ride 5-6k miles per year and rarely have a problem

[dwb68]

If too many people are trying to assault you, its clearly your fault, am i rite?

[Joe_dallas]

DW - not sure where you ride or how many times or miles you ride, but your comments indicate that you are not a very skilled cyclists
which explains many of the problems you are complaining about.

Go to one of the local bike shops and talk to some of the guys that race and get some pointers on how to avoid the problems you are incurring. Most of the bike shops will sponsor a local race team, so you should have lots of good advice available.

[dwb68]

Nah. I commuted to work in London seven miles each way. Never had a problem. I've known the hand signals for left and right since I was 12. Blinking lights and safety reflective straps, the whole thing. In some cities, like London, people are used to seeing cyclists.

Commuting is not the same as racing (or mountain biking). To suggest its the same suggests you don't do much biking, or racing. For races they block of the road. If they blocked off the road for commuting, or had separate bike lanes and trails, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Here people are just downright nasty to cyclists. In fact, some days I've rather cycle without all the reflective shit, its less likely I'll be noticed for a nasty gram.

I know... hard to believe that in some parts of the country people are nasty to cyclists and Trump/Biden supporters when they see the signs!

[Joe_dallas]

DWB's comment - "Commuting is not the same as racing (or mountain biking). To suggest its the same suggests you don't do much biking, or racing. For races they block of the road. "

I'm a cat 3, 7-10 races per year, 5k-6k miles per year. Roads only get blocked for crit races and some p/1/2 races.

The incidences your are describing are most common with less skilled riders,

As I previously stated, your comments tells me your skill level is low and likely invites bad driver behavior. I would stongly suggest you going to one of the local bike shops and get some advice on improvements that you can make to reduce the bad interactions you have while riding.

[StellaLink_the dog]

"The incidences your are describing are most common with less skilled riders"

That statement proves that you are a liar.

[Joe_dallas]

your response indicates you have no actual knowledge or experience of the subject matter.

[Tim B]

"If you meet one asshole, you met an asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole..."

[FourteenFour]

I am for bicyclist paying tag fees and mount tags to their bikes so we can insure they are paying their fair share. They should also be required to wear the proper safety gear and have lighting to inform others of their intent.

After all if they want to share the road they should follow the same rules as other vehicles

[dwb68]

hmmm. Good idea. Maybe car owners should be required to buy little smart cars so they do less damage to those around them when they run red lights. Better for the roads too.

[Joe_dallas]

FourteenFour
February.22.2022 at 11:14 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"I am for bicyclist paying tag fees and mount tags to their bikes so we can insure they are paying their fair share. "

I am a cyclist - 5k - 6k per year. The fair share should be based on the wear and tear on the road caused by the vehicle. A 200 lb cyclist a lot less wear and tear on the road than a 3k lb car or 6k lb truck

[BadLib]

The bicycle fees should also cover the cost of creating and maintaining bike lanes and the additional width (increasing real estate and construction costs) needed when building new roads to the extent that targeted taxes on car registration and fuel pay for similar costs for roads primarily used by motor vehicles.

Pavement and pavement striping does not last forever even without heavy weights on it.

In my area some roads have been reduced from two two lanes each way to one lane each way to accommodate bike lanes. A significant portion (perhaps 30%?) of the maintenance of those roads should now come from bicycle fees.

Those bicycle fees would have to be quite high as the use of these bicycle lanes is pretty minimal. My estimate is that for every 100 to 500 cars, one bicycle travels the same path in my area. Albeit many vehicles only have one occupant but require several times the road surface of a bicycle so if the road isn't split equally (as in my last paragraph) the ratio of cost allocation to bicyclists would not be 100:1 to 500:1 but something, perhaps, closer to 20:1 to or 100:1.

Bicycles, like electric cars which escape paying their fair share because they don't pay gasoline taxes, should be charged somehow for their use of the roads or most gasoline and diesel fuel taxes should be eliminated and the construction and maintenance costs borne by general rather than targeted taxes.

[perlhaqr]

So, like, $50k per year to operate a bicycle on the street?

That seems reasonable. It'll keep them from getting in the way of people who are trying to work.

[Archibald Tuttle]

In the UK, 3rd parties can make videos of traffic offensives (making sure that the license number is captured on video), email it to the police and the courts will issue a judgement and a fine against the owner. No live testimony or hearing is necessary.

I don't think US law would allow that, but it does sound like a rational solution to this problem.

[dwb68]

Isn't that basically how red light and speeding cameras work now? Most of them are run by a third party contract. If I catch someone running a light with my gopro, I think its no different than if the red light camera catches them (In most cases there is a live video behind the images btw).

I think that the practical issue is, who do I submit the video too?

[John F. Carr]

In a court with rules of evidence a live witness needs to authenticate the video. If you submit a video to police you have to show up in court. Most ticket cameras get around the issue by creating special presumptions.

For example, under a perennial bill proposed in Massachusetts a photograph of a license plate is prima facie evidence of a violation of law, and the owner of the license plate is liable no matter who was driving.

[John F. Carr]

I think US law would allow that in some jurisdictions. You need a traffic court with relaxed evidentiary rules combined with a presumption that the owner of a car is the driver, or video showing the driver.

From about 1995-2010 Massachusetts encouraged witnesses to send written reports of bad driving to licensing authorities. I don't know how many actions were taken based on citizen reports. While the RMV does revoke licenses based on reports of bad driving, without any ticket being issued, that action is taken against a driver rather than a license plate. The typical scenario is a driver is pulled over and shows a bad attitude, or somebody sympathetic is hit by a car, and police ask for an immediate license revocation of a known driver.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I had an interesting bicycle commute once. Couldn't ride within a foot or so of the curb because the drainage grates were all oriented the wrong way so tires would get stuck and flip you. Some driver didn't like my riding that far out, yelled and honked, but at least did move into the other lane enough to pass. At the red light up ahead, I caught up and stopped behind him. He opened his door, started yelling some crap, definitely not just wanting to talk politely, walking back towards me. I yelled "I got your number" and read his license plate to him. He reversed back to his car and left me alone.

I also had a different reaction once. Two left turn lanes, I was first in line. When the left turn light turned green, I got my feet clicked in perfectly and was off like a rocket; speedometer said 30+ mph coming out of the turn. Couldn't maintain that, of course, settled down to about 22, and my right turn to work was only a couple hundred yards away. Some damn truck to my left started honking, really laying on it, and it pissed me off; I was faster through that left turn than the cars behind me! Looked over, and the passenger was cheering me on, pumping his hand up and down, grinning like a fool, and I smiled back and felt like a fool for assuming the worst.

[Joe_dallas]

A's comment - "Couldn't ride within a foot or so of the curb because the drainage grates were all oriented the wrong way so tires would get stuck and flip you."

Fortunately I have never got wheels stuck in a crack.

That being said, A common mistake for rookie and unskilled riders is to try to hug the curb thinking it is safer because it gives cars more room to pass.

The reality is often much safer to be in the middle of the lane so that cars can only pass you when it is safe for them. counter intuitive but safer.

as a side note - curious how you hit 30+ from dead stop in less than 10 sec. Best I could do would hit 22-23 with close to 400 watts in 10 sec

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I always rode in the middle of lanes, always. Force drivers to pass safely rather than try to squeeze past.

As for that 30mph turn ... I remember my feet clicking into the pedals perfectly for a primo start, and it was a 35 mph zone with two left turn lanes, me in the outer / curb side lane, so it was longer around than the usual city block right angle turn. It was also a short commute, total 2.3 miles, so I could sprint as hard as I wanted without tiring out. I also knew there were cars behind me and did not want to give them any excuse for honking at a late start.

This was during a period where I was hitting the "local" (60 miles away) velodrome Sunday mornings, not to race, but to get some track bike experience, and I was pretty good at sprinting in low gears. Winding up to high rpms even on roads for a couple of seconds was not a problem. Memory says 200 rpm for a couple of seconds in really low gears, and I had some rollers to play with the same way for smoothness. But I wouldn't swear to 200; I know it ended in two zeroes, but 100 seems too low for a trackie to marvel at.

At any rate, sprinting was my passion during that period, which probably helped.

[John F. Carr]

An agency responsible for major roads in the Boston area had the grate problem and more. They wanted to signal bicycle friendliness and car hostility, but they didn't want to spend any money on infrastructure. They were willing to spend money on paint, that's all. So you got marked bicycle lanes with grates turned the wrong way, bushes hanging over the road, and major pavement irregularity.

[perlhaqr]

Stop playing with your toys in the road. You'll get run over.

[StellaLink_the dog]

Stop wankig in public.

[perlhaqr]

I will definitely stop doing that as soon as I figure out what you said.

The whole "on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog" thing doesn't work if you tell people.

Better luck next time. Good boy!

[Shamie Ervin iv]

Except in this case, and I being a bullied bicyclist, hate speech laws are per se unconstitutional.

[Armchair Lawyer]

In other news about cyclists...

Seattle just repealed its bicycle helmet law because...it was racist?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/seattle-repeals-bicycle-helmet-law-for-racial-equity

[FourteenFour]

Were they told to wear hoods?

Do they really have statistics that prove that white riders, or basically anyone not black, were just as likely to ride without helmets?

So in order to be a happier and more tolerant society more people need to die or suffer serious injury.

[Ed Grinberg]

"Black cyclists were four times more likely than white cyclists to be fined..."
If, in the state of Washington, blacks are also more likely than non-blacks to commit other crimes -- e.g. robbery, assault, rape, murder -- will they repeal those laws too? I wonder...

[Armchair Lawyer]

Shh... They just won't enforce them.

[Davedave]

Helmet laws can indeed be racist - hence why Sikhs and Rastas (among others) are often exempt from motorcycle helmet laws.

But really, it doesn't matter. It's well-established that cycle helmet laws are a really bad idea, because they discourage cycling. Sensible cyclists wear helmets already.

[BadLib]

Motorcycle helmet exemptions for those whose religion dictates wearing of a form of headdress involving a long strip of textile conjures up images of Isadora Duncan.

[StellaLink_the dog]

Wear a helmet if you like, but normal cycling with or without a helmet is not dangerous. If you are in a group including many cyclists with poor skills, riding across Iowa, for example, wearing a helmet is probably more important. If you are racing, wear a helmet. If you are just an experienced commuter rider who is reasonably careful, riding a bike without a helmet during your commute probably reduces your life expectancy much less than eating a Big Mac wihout a helmet. And, who wears a helmet while eating a Big Mac? Or taking a shower.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

In other news about cyclists . . . how was this driver permitted to leave the scene without charges, a ticket, or handcuffs?

I do not understand rage and aggression toward bicyclists.

[StellaLink_the dog]

"how was this driver permitted to leave the scene without charges, a ticket, or handcuffs?"

WALLER COUNTY, Texas

[John F. Carr]

Municipal court offense with municipal court quality judges?

Judge: Jurors, the law requires drivers to act reasonably. There is testimony that the defendant pulled out a gun and blew some spandex-clad scofflaw's head off. If you believe that testimony, you must then decide whether that was a reasonable reaction to a self-entitled jerk or whether it constitutes unreasonable disturbance.

Defense: Objection! There is no evidence in the record about the specific material the deceased was wearing.

[ReaderY]

Whether or not this specific specific statute is constitutional, I think states should be entitled to restrict speech to drivers on highways in ways they couldn’t do in other situations, because viscerally outraging people increases the risks of a highway accident or road rage situation.

I understand Professor Volokh disagrees here. But I think the fact that people have to act quickly in a traffic situation does make things different from ordinary First Amendment contexts, and gives the state a heightened safety interest not ordinarily present.

[The Last American Hero]

Road rage is dumb and dangerous, but the bicycle terrorists around here dress up like ninjas, slice and weave in rush hour traffic in the dark and the rain, blow red lights and stop signs (no, not at empty intersections), and are very angry at the drivers. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, assholes.

[John F. Carr]

In and near Boston the bicyclists are stereotypical, but when you get out into the suburbs with more widely spaced intersections they behave better.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Most of the aggressive, stupid activity I see on roads involves automobiles (conspicuously involving large pickup trucks) and especially motorcycles.

[Doug Huffman]

A scofflaw cyclist presents no hazard to a driver.

Cyclists fare best when they act as and are seen as drivers of vehicles.

Y’all think its bad now, just wait untill all of the E-bikes take their lawful place on the highway. I am riding the Withlacoochee SP bike trail for ten weeks and half of the cycles are E-bikes and the riders have only been drivers all of their mature life.

[perlhaqr]

Yeah, that's going to suck.

-A CDL Holder