The Volokh Conspiracy
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Will the En Banc 9th Circuit Extend the Second Amendment's Losing Streak to 51 Cases?
Not only did Judge VanDyke write a majority opinion, he wrote a draft fauxpinion reversing himself!
Heller was decided in 2008. Two years later, McDonald incorporated the Second Amendment. In the past thirteen years, the Second Amendment has had barely any impact on federal law. Invariably, lower courts have upheld all manner of gun control regulations, and the Supreme Court has denied review. Leading the charge has been the Ninth Circuit. The government is undefeated in Second Amendment cases, amassing a record of 50-0. And whenever a three-judge panel actually finds a gun law unconstitutional, without fail, the case is reversed en banc. These numbers come, of course, from Judge VanDyke's dissent in Duncan v. Bonta. You see, Judge VanDyke and his colleagues on the Ninth Circuit are frustrated. In case, after case, after case, they are on the losing end of decisions. I imagine Judges Higginson and Costa from the Fifth Circuit can relate. They should start a support group--Dissenters Anonymous.
Now, VanDyke has tried something different. He actually managed to write a unanimous panel opinion declaring unconstitutional restrictions on firearms. Ventura County prohibited the sale of firearms for 48-days during the start of the pandemic, even as other commercial ventures remained open. This victory will be short-lived. We all know what is going to happen next. The Ninth Circuit, with a few more Biden nominees aboard, will en banc this case faster than you can say Reinhardt! Maybe in a year or so, when we are up to the Omega variant, the Ninth Circuit will drop a 200-page opinion that upholds the gun regulations under intermediate scrutiny. Then, one year later, the Supreme Court will deny certiorari over harsh dissents from the conservatives.
Frankly, this entire process is a waste of time. So, Judge VanDyke tried something new--write an "alternative" draft en banc opinion--or a fauxpinion, if you will--that reverses his panel opinion.
Since our court's Second Amendment intermediate scrutiny standard can reach any result one desires, I figure there is no reason why I shouldn't write an alternative draft opinion that will apply our test in a way more to the liking of the majority of our court. That way I can demonstrate just how easy it is to reach any desired conclusion under our current framework, and the majority of our court can get a jump-start on calling this case en banc. Sort of a win-win for everyone.
But wait, there's more. VanDyke adds an element of Mystery Science Theater 3000 to his concurrence.
To better explain the reasoning and assumptions behind this type of analysis, my "alternative" draft below will contain footnotes that offer further elaboration (think of them as "thought-bubbles"). The path is well-worn, and in a few easy steps any firearms regulation, no matter how draconic, can earn this circuit's stamp of approval.
VanDyke's fauxpinion is a masterpiece. If you just read above the line, it could have come from any of the Ninth Circuit's luminaries. Truly, it is pitch perfect. If you read below the line, VanDyke points out how vapid the majority's jurisprudence is. A few of my favorites:
FN2: We refer to strict scrutiny as a theoretical matter—a thought-experiment, really. Our court has never ultimately applied strict scrutiny to any real-life gun regulation.
FN4: And second, once we've concluded that a challenged regulation does not place a "substantial burden on Second Amendment rights," it's really game over. A regulation that we've already determined does not substantially burden the Second Amendment can be upheld easy-peasy under our watered-down intermediate scrutiny test.
FN8: Whew. Hard work done. It's all downhill from here!
FN11: But trust us, this is heightened scrutiny. So very heightened.
FN12: Again, it doesn't matter much what we say here. Once we're allowed to effectively balance competing interests under our Second Amendment intermediate scrutiny, it's so easy justifying a regulation that we could easily just delegate this part of the opinion to our interns.
What happens next? Well we will probably get an en banc call and reversal. Though, the court may decide this case is not worth fighting over, given how egregious Ventura County's restrictions were. Hey, the Supreme Court may even summarily reverse this opinion under Tandon v. Newsom. There may be some value to at least let the Second Amendment win once, to prove that the deck is not stacked against the right to keep and bear arms. Also, the easiest way to shut up that guy in Reno is to deny en banc! Think about it!
Or, the Ninth Circuit can take a cue from the Supreme Court, and declare VanDyke's majority opinion dicta, and find that the actual holding appears in VanDyke's concurrence--minus the snarky footnotes.
VanDyke's concurrence concludes, "You're welcome."
You're welcome.
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"Masterpiece" is a weird way to say completely inappropriate and unprofessional. This sarcastic douchy crap has no place in the federal reporter. The only other time I think I've been this appalled by an appellate opinion was Judge Silverman's bizarre and unhinged media bias rant. It's almost like VanDyke is trying to prove that the ABA was 100% correct about him when they said "Mr. VanDyke is arrogant, lazy, an ideologue, and lacking in knowledge of the day-today practice including procedural rules. There was a theme that the nominee lacks humility, has an “entitlement” temperament, does not have an open mind, and does not always have a commitment to being candid and truthful."
Yeah, we should save space in the Federal Register for those other 9th circuit rulings which somehow always go against the 2A when heard en banc.
I presume that you don't think there's ever a point where injustice should be dealt with by any means, including the terrible threat of sarcasm.
The 9th (and the 5th) deserve to be humiliated in public for their various results-oriented partisan rulings. If that means it comes from a fellow Judge, then I'm all for it.
What do you think this "masterpiece" accomplishes? Do you think it makes it more likely that they'll ultimately obtain the relief Judge VanDyke thinks they're entitled to? That future litigates will be more likely to see violations of their rights redressed? That the Supreme Court will be more likely to start taking the second amendment seriously?
Let's be clear about one thing first: I didn't call the opinion a "masterpiece."
It is my hope that public shaming will change the behavior of the Judges and their bullshit partisan justification for ignoring enumerated rights.
Sometimes the best course of action is to throw someone's hypocrisy right in their damn face.
If you disagree, then I'd love to hear your thoughts on precisely how the 9th (and on the opposite end, the 5th) will ever be brought to heel.
The 'bringing to heel' is well underway . . . just not the way conservatives wish to see.
Carry on, clingers . . . so far as your betters permit.
RevCuntland has his jackboots on again.. picking on the comment section, nothing to say on the actual discussion over 2nd amendment..
RevCuntland, to repeat: you and yours are a parasite not the 'betters' and you are spending all the societal wealth your elders (true betters) accumulated for us all
Lazy?!? He wrote two opinions!
It’s disgraceful and it shows how disingenuous Josh Blackman was when he claimed in Atlantic that VanDyke was being improperly criticized for being arrogant, intemperate and difficult to get along with.
In the few months he’s been on the Ninth Circuit, he’s been unbelievably insulting to his fellow judges. I can only imagine how he treats lawyers and litigants. Imagine having the unhappy luck to be a client or lawyer with a cause that he isn’t sympathetic to. If he’s this nasty to his fellow judges, what chance do you have of receiving anything more than the back of his hand?
I practice before the Ninth Circuit regularly and there are plenty of conservative judges who I think I might have a prayer of receiving a sympathetic hearing from—Milan Smith and Jay Bybee come to mind—but VanDyke is one of a kind. Find someone who loves you like Judge VanDyke loves Judge VanDyke. His overweening self-regard leaps out of the page when you reads his opinions. The fact that Josh Blackman is such a fan of his tells you everything you need to know about both of them.
Well from the ABA I consider that an endorsement. The more vituperative they are, the better he must be.
But Jellis let me ask to you a question, if you think this mock opinion is such inappropriate and unprofessional sarcastic douchy crap, what did you think of Adam Schiff's "parody" of Trumps phone call to Ukraine when Schiff was opening up a preliminary impeachment hearing.
Just as bad? Worse? Totally justified under the circumstances?
This is a weak analogy between legislature and judiciary (check out the history of legislative rhetoric sometime), and weaker whattaboutism.
This judge is unprofessional and self-absorbed beyond the usual for federal judges. You don't need to jump to his defense just because you like which side he's on - his job is not in danger.
He's being unprofessional by mocking the unprofessional behavior of the en banc panels.
Unlike the en banc panels, HIS unprofessional behavior doesn't involve negating explicit constitutional rights and screwing over litigants.
On any rational scale, that makes the people he's mocking a thousand times worse, at least.
Courts finding in ways you think are wrong isn't unprofessional.
Yes, I know you think disagreements with you are all in bad faith.
The 'faux-pinion' was spot-on, hilarious and completely inappropriate.
Judge VanDyke (and 9 other POTUS Trump appointees) present interesting challenges for the Ninth. I expect to see many more jousts and clashes like this in the coming years. There are plusses and minuses to that. On balance, I think it is a net plus because there is now judicial philosophy diversity on the bench.
Trolling is not actually something that I think will grow ideological diversity on the bench.
You're a straighter shooter than to think acting toxic is great when it's on your side.
The conservatives on the Ninth Circuit will fare no better than the clingers in elected office, at good law schools, at blogs, or anywhere else in America (outside the "safe spaces" of Federalist and Heritage events, Republican Committee meetings, militia gatherings, and Klan rallies).
Culture wars have consequences. So do bigotry, ignorance, and backwardness in modern America.
The 'faux-pinion' was completely inappropriate, I specifically said that (because it was). It is quite the gauntlet to throw down. Now we will see if he can back it up with intellectual heft and quality judicial decisions over time. The jury is out on that (can he make quality judicial decisions over time; intellectual heft) for a decade or so. I am kind of curious to see what he does as an encore, truthfully.
The philosophical diversity is now there where it was not before. We will see more jousting and clashes on the 9th circuit. I am certain of that, Sarcastr0.
The ninth has not been a super liberal bastion for quite some time before this, though. Trump wasn't the one to change that.
"You're a straighter shooter than to think acting toxic is great when it's on your side."
Yeah, all those judges (and justices) bending over backwards, using specious reasoning to uphold gun laws are real straight-shooters!
Look, like it or not, the 2nd amendment is right there in the Bill of Rights, and the Heller and McDonald decisions actually did happen. So, yeah, a federal circuit court deciding that they don't have to uphold the 2nd amendment is pretty contemptable.
Notice how I said nothing about the merits? Just because you don't notice how big a dick someone is bring if they agree with you doesn't mean they're still not a dick.
Yeah, some people look down on judges for ruling correctly with snark, and some look down on them for being serious while trashing genuine constitutional rights.
Whether you like it or not, the 2nd amendment is a real constitutional right, and the 9th circuit is treating it like trash.
And the Supreme court isn't treating it much better by letting them.
Second Amendment rights are real constitution rights, similar to First Amendment rights.
Neither First Amendment rights nor Second Amendment rights are absolute, however.
I wouldn't expect autistic, bigoted (birther-class), disaffected right-wingers to recognize or understand the relevant nuance.
hey cuntyland, your cis-strawperson is on fire again...
Sarcastr0's preference for form over substance (he thinks shitty legal decisions cloaked in decorum are better than good decisions expressed with snark) is not surprising.
Yeah, leftists are big on decorum. Did you know that, during the French Revolution, they had "trials" before they sent people to the guillotine?
Does anyone genuinely believe our courts are impartial arbiters of the law that act as a meaningful check on the other branches or sincere protectors of our rights?
They are ideologues and partisans first. My favorite is when environmental activists collude with federal agencies to create new policy that gets blessed by accomplice courts.
Or loosening vote security to facilitate election theft.
Or colluding with dinner circuit pals to bless secret warrants to spy on and later entrap opposition politicos.
There isn’t a single federal institution that’s worth saving.
"There isn’t a single federal institution that’s worth saving."
Disaffected conservative bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Top 5% Federal Class oppressors are my least favorite.
If China or Russia were to nuke the US, I pray they start with DC.
"Top 5%"
How far are you toward the bottom, BravoCharlieDelta?
Is that why you resent your betters?
revcunty, if history serves, you are one of the first on the firing block when your brownshirts take over
"Does anyone genuinely believe our courts are impartial arbiters of the law that act as a meaningful check on the other branches or sincere protectors of our rights?"
Check the local kindergarten.
Extreme partisans do love their legal realism. Probably because they can't imagine not being utter tools on the bench if they were up there.
Harry S above provides some counterexamples from experience.
Having a judicial point of view is not the same as being nakedly outcome oriented.
Think how many chilren's lives would be saved if gun nuts did not restrict gun safety measures in a misguided belief that they interfere with 2nd A rights. Or maybe they don't care if children lose their lives in defense of, well not sure what opposition to gun safety measures are defense of are we.
Says the people who are forcing masks on children 8 hours a day while on Zoom calls with union teachers.
None of you people give a shit about children.
Sure, masks and bullets, totes the same.
Covid countermeasures have made a generation of children dumber (lowered IQs), stunted their social growth, and greatly increased suicides.
All for a disease that's killed fewer than 1000 American children.
None of that is established.
And children can give it to adults, that's the whole thing.
Then let adults wear masks (let, not require). Kids should not have to and it is pointless to request it.
Sigh. Suicide rates are down since Covid began.
And the only people covid countermeasures made dumber are Trumpkins.
Think of how vapid your entire remark is, and how it has nothing to do with reality.
Why don't you tell us how many children's lives would be saved? Since you seem to think so much about the children. In a legal way, I hope. Please don't share if otherwise.
Speaking of kids and guns I hear Rittenhaus wants his rifle back so that he can properly destroy it. Bullshit. Every dog and his brother knows that gun is now a holy relic to the gun kooks who will pay a fortune for it.
"I hear Rittenhaus wants his rifle back so that he can properly destroy it."
It would probably be a good idea to stop listening to the voices in your head.
Is it not the most famous gun in America at the moment?
Speaking of paying attention to the 'real world' and not just the voices in one's head:
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/21/us/kyle-rittenhouse-requests-seized-property/index.html
Congrats on making a fool of yourself.
"Congrats on making a fool of yourself." It's what we do, Jason. And it's easy pickings on this blog.
Mocking these wingnuts at the Volokh Conspiracy isn’t much of a challenge these days. They make it too easy. I sometimes find myself wishing for a better class of clingers to ridicule. There is often no sport left to it. It’s like Bill Russell’s Celtics against the guys who couldn’t make the Washington Generals. Harvard against Hillsdale. The United States against Grenada, A real lawyer against Trump Elite Strike Force and Sidney Powell’s Kraken.
Big opinion of yourself.
You're not mocking, you're trolling, just like any other 12 year old online.
rev cunty, once out of every ten-thousand or so posts, you actually say something mildly on topic and worth discussion...
other than that, MF is right, you just troll with your "betters" comments all the time (and you seem to have an oral fixation, but I digress).. the fact you cannot generally see that govt having so much power even when its "your team" is a HUGE problem and the death of individual rights and a sustaining culture says much more about you being the the idiot in these conversations..
you reflexively just take 'team lefty' side with zero thought or reason - you LITERALLY are the same person you mock on the right that just goes with what the general GOP (or church) tells them... shockingly similar rev-cunty - its just, right now, your shitty team is in the power position..(vs the other shitty team being in power)
""I didn't do anything wrong. I defended myself," he testified. Rittenhouse feared Rosenbaum -- who didn't touch him that night -- would take his gun and kill people, he said."
What a stupidly deceptive way of describing a genuinely racist pedophile arsonist who was charging the person who shot him, and inches away from him when he went down. Like the jury didn't have reasons for declaring that self defense.
Now Brett, be civil. It's kinda piling on to speak of the dead as racist pedophiles. Where have I heard this before?....Oh yeah [Q]
Racist pedophile rapist arsonist, to be specific.
Joseph Rosenbaum: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
Gun nuts might just be those who worry that it would be bad to return someone's property after he is found not guilty on all charges.
Of course he should get it back. I'm just saying he should sell it. Or at least tote it to the grocery store in case he gets scared again.
From a purely economic standpoint selling it would be the smart move, but I guess I can understand that he was traumatized enough by the whole thing, even if it was fully justified, that he wants it gone.
Of course on the other hand... should he be given something that he wasn't legally allowed to have for his age at the time?
Well, probably not, but we were discussing this gun, instead.
It wasn't illegal.
Why shouldn't he get it back?
It was established he possessed it legally, and that he committed no crime with it.
Under what legal theory can the police retain it?
It's currently being held as evidence in another case.
That case has been adjudicated. The guy plead out to a violation that's not even a misdemeanor.
so hobie, hypothetically assume Rittenhouse sells the gun. Is that actually illegal?
I choose to believe Rittenhouse when he says he wants the rifle back in order to destroy it. It might be important for Rittenhouse's own psychological healing and recovery to destroy that gun.
Well right now we are too busy trying to kill children by rolling back mask and vaccine mandates to worry about rolling back gun safety laws.
Mr. Kazinski, did you have to wake up that early just to say something that ridiculous?
Think how many children's lives would be saved if gun grabbers actually cared about safety instead of doing everything they can to go after law abiding gun owners and coddling criminals.
Do abortion now, Sidney. I bet way more kids have been killed by abortion than guns.
gun safety measures
If you didn't have idiotically dishonest euphemisms in your rhetorical quiver you'd almost certainly be incapable of expressing yourself at all.
Is anyone surprised that Prof. Blackman thinks a completely unprofessional piece of writing, one not fit for a law review article let alone a federal reporter, is a "masterpiece"?
I for one, am not.
To be clear, I agree with the decision, and I agree with the concurrence, too. My gripe about the latter is not that it's false, but that it's utterly unprofessional and shows a lack of judicial temperament.
Judge VanDyke's concurrence is, at bottom, a troll job, and a pretty well executed example of the genre. And Prof. Blackman is, first and foremost, a troll. So this take is one of the least surprising things I've seen in a while.
(Agreed with you 100% on the substance.)
This is a decently large question, but the comments here on guns always mix is and ought, and you're pretty good at not doing that.
What is the current actual state of the 2A, nationally?
The Supreme Court hasn't done much about 'reasonable regulation' except to say it's not, from what I (dimly) understand.
Depends on the circuit you're in. If you're not in the 5th or 9th circuit, Heller and McDonald are being enforced, if not always enthusiastically. Individual states vary from almost fully respecting it, to not quite as bad as DC was before Heller.
And the Supreme court is refusing to clean up the circuit splits, so the lower courts know they can get away with ignoring Heller and McDonald as long as they make the slightest nod to them in their reasoning.
Didn't ask you, Brett.
Your Constitutional analysis is all ought with no is.
That analysis was all is, even if the description was from the perspective of somebody who thinks the 2nd amendment ought to be enforced.
2nd amendment jurisprudence is a total mess in this country, varying radically from circuit to circuit, and state to state, because of the Supreme court refusing to do its job.
You're trying to make normative statements, but I can't trust you because you honestly can't tell the difference between what you want and reality when it comes to the Constitution.
The different circuits are ruling in a contradictory manner, and that's not a normative judgement, it's an objective one.
And the Supreme court isn't supposed to allow situations like that to continue.
I'll try to stay away from the "ought". I live in California. There is something we have called the roster of not unsafe handguns. These are handguns that are legal to buy new in California. If you're not a cop or a retired cop you can't buy a new handgun that isn't on the roster. A recently enacted law states that for any gun added to the roster three must be removed. And no new semi autos can be added because the law mandates they be made with technology that doesn't work in the real world.
That is the state of the 2A in my world.
Good to know. I just don't know what the state of reasonable restriction is - i.e. whether that (quite janky, natch.) CA system is going to get struck down or not.
As for ought, I just want clarity.
I'm not a big gun control person, but I also don't think the 2A is a special right that's extra inviolate; there will be a cost benefit like all the other rights.
You've got an item that you literally have a constitutional right to own. The state has a list of varieties you'll be permitted to own that excludes almost everything on the market, including the entire most popular category. They have a rule that the list must shrink every time a new gun is put on the list.
And you don't know if this is reasonable?
If you're not a big gun control person, how would you define such a person? Somebody who wants a total ban with roving teams doing warrantless door to door searches rounding guns up?
Bottom line, that is legal right now with the law as it is, until it is further clarified. I am not interested in your 'this is how it ought to be, which is the same as it is if judges stopped lying' nonsense here - It is not a useful analysis about what the law is, or even where it's going.
In some areas I'm interested in playing constitutional policymaker, just for fun. This is not one of them.
You're displaying pathological levels of legal realism here.
Judges are capable of being wrong. The 2nd amendment is "the law as it is", the court rulings are a judicial decision to violate the law.
I'm not a legal realist - I don't think judges vote only how they want to; I think they are constrained by the law.
You're the one reifying your opinion as the One True Constitution, like a child.
"I'm not a big gun control person, but I also don't think the 2A is a special right that's extra inviolate"
Are you fucking kidding?! As things stand, it's the one fundamental right that's being ignored across the country (while courts look the other way)!
So David, you practice in the Second Circuit, right? Any judges in the Second circuit do anything like this (speaking of faux-pinion)?
Although l'm going to channel my inner Blackman and not make any effort to check, I am extremely confident that no circuit judge has ever done anything like this.
LOL, you're pretty funny Nas = Although l'm going to channel my inner Blackman and not make any effort to check. I have come to appreciate your sense of humor over time.
N-a-s said it as well as I could've.
I'd add that I read cases. Lots and lots of cases. I have never seen or heard of anything like this.
It was unusual, I will say that.
It perfectly fits the situation. The Ninth Circuit barely pretends to follow the Constitution and only people like you are fooled by what they write.
well said
Are you referring to VanDyke, the certified unqualified and professional (or perhaps unprofessional, depending upon perspective) bigot, or to a different VanDyke?
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you known how far and how long, particularly with respect to guns.
You're not the better of anyone who matters, I can assure you of that.
And as far as taking other people's guns away goes, none of you needle-dicked leftwingers have the guts to try.
Everyone is shaking in terror at the keyboard bravado you've displayed.
This is something you should keep in the back of your mind when you proffer an opinion on a subject you have zero experience in, as is your wont.
That's right, Jason. You skedaddle or else expect a bullet sandwich from the huckleberries here
What, precisely, do you think you know about my experiences?
Once we've had a good warmup laugh with that answer, let's talk about your opinions and how you're totally not a hypocrite.
What a fun Saturday this will be!
Go and try it on someone then since you act like you've got the nerve.
I see that you didn't have anything intelligent to say. How utterly unsurprising.
Are you Ogmios' fluffer, or just a fellow internet tough-guy?
All-talk clingers like Ogmios are my favorite culture war casualties. Guys like me have been shoving progress down Ogmios’ bigoted, half-educated right-wing throat every day of his deplorable life, and what has he done about it, other than whimpering like a little girl who lost her dolly? He has obsequiously complied with the preferences of his betters.
You’re just the type of disaffected wingnut and whining, powerless misfit Prof. Volokh cultivates as an audience for this blog, Ogmios.
I'll bet Kyle Rittenhaus could disarm you tough guy
If California secedes, can they take the 9th Circuit with them?
Why secede when you can continue to lead (and bring the opposition to its deplorable knees)?
Because most of the other states want you to?
Jerry B, how will you get your gun parts and an snake oil if California takes their ports with them?
If this is a masterpiece, South Texas College Of Law Houston might be a legitimate law school.
Just kidding. I wouldn't send a talking parrot to South Texas College Of Law Houston (although I would expect the parrot to be admitted, and might send the application fee just for the laughs).
It's a downtown single-building campus here in Houston. The students must pay an ungodly amount of money to get educated in birtherism and drywall installation.
"The students must pay an ungodly amount of money to get educated in birtherism and drywall installation."
Please never stop insulting the working class. Ride the consequences all the way down.
I assume most South Texas students are dumbass rich kids who couldn’t even ride unearned advantage to a spot at a good law school. Plenty of able students from modest circumstances attend strong liberal-libertarian law schools.
I’ll stack my working credentials against yours any day, Kleppe. What distinguishes me from you is that I am not a roundly bigoted, half-educated, superstitious, obsolete, doomed-to-lose Republican. And you can’t stand that, much as you can’t stand all of this damned progress in modern America.
Even if true, that's actually a better deal financially than most of the degrees you might get at a liberal arts college; They pay people to install drywall.
Unless Blackman stamps their stubs, the student parking debt alone would reach the five figures. Downtown ain't cheap.
I'm not sure that a "drywall installation" degree from a bad law school would get you paid much.
If the ABA didn't like Van Dyke, that means he thinks for himself. The ABA doesn't like judges who think. I first joined the ABA Law Student Division in 1973. I resigned from the ABA when it supported the Brady Bill in 1988 (?).
How much "thinking for himself" do you figure a graduate of Bear Valley Bible Institute does?
Significantly more than you. Please spare me the "betters" line. I've toyed with your ilk since the sixties, but you all keep coming back and falling behind, thinking that regressing is progressing. Self-deception is a wonder to observe in you woke folks.
The 'betters' thing is its schtick, it seems to have a need to belittle and bully from fictional position of superiority, and has a history of doing so. One can take all that it says about its life, career, accomplishments as fantasy. If it wasn't such a toxic and vile individual, one might be inclined to feel pity for the pathetic troll.
When you see a troll continually rolling out that 'schtick', you know its life must be a boring, lonely, dull existence to have to resort to it.
Yep. That background check was a hell of thing. I don't blame you. Who wants to wait five days when they're angry right now!
A bar association has no business supporting a gun bill, though?
Of course, they have every right to do so, but if they're going to choose to get involved in politics like that, then don't be surprised when some people think their opinions about judges are also political.
" if they're going to choose to get involved in politics". True. They should strive to be more like the Federalist.
The federalist society doesn't endorse or opoose any legislation, so you are right.
Of course, they have every right to do so, but if they're going to choose to get involved in
politics like that,the constitution like that....Way to miss the point, which is that it wasn't anything the ABA should have taken a stand on in the first place.
Exactly.
A rough calculation suggests that, after Trump's judicial appointment-fest, Republican appointees should be in the majority for a 9th circuit en banc roughly 30% of the time. (Unless somebody is fiddling the draw.)
So assuming - a big assumption I concede - that all 13 Republican appointees think the 2nd Amendment is a thing, then there's a possibility that one day gun right litigants will win a case en banc.
Those odds might not hold much longer. The Ninth Circuit may be experiencing peak clinger.
Another Biden pick is on the way; a handful of Democratic judges are eligible for senior status during the next year or so (with Democrats positioned to install any replacement they wish); a couple of Republicans are clinging to positions in their 70s; and one clinger is still trying to keep a seat for the Republicans in his 80s.
I think you can pretty safely assume that somebody is fiddling the draw. The courts tend to do that, if not watched very closely.
You might recall there was a bit of a scandal about that during the Clinton administration: The Clinton appointed judges ("The Magnificent Seven") had arranged for all Clinton related litigation to bypass random assignment and be heard by them exclusively.
somebody is fiddling the draw
Another conspiracy theory from Brett.
Yeah, the coin just landed the same way 51 times by accident.
You got numbers? Because your linked opinion piece by a Ken Star Lackey alleging a Clinton conspiracy is pretty short on those.
Yeah, yeah, you think every Clinton related case landed in front of a Clinton appointed judge by accident, too. Only it wasn't remotely by accident.
Chief judge asked for same jurist in Hsia, Trie cases
"The Judicial Council, earlier this month, ordered acting Appeals Court Chief Judge Stephen F. Williams to determine why the random assignment system was bypassed in the cases.
...
Earlier this month, senior judges at the federal court abolished the policy that let Judge Johnson bypass the random assignment system. Instead, they created a new system in which high-profile or lengthy cases will be assigned on a random basis to a separate pool that will include all the judges."
"
Or if you want a case that might not engage your partisan blinders in the same way,
THE DANGER OF NONRANDOM CASE ASSIGNMENT:
HOW THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK’S “RELATED CASES” RULE HAS SHAPED THE EVOLUTION OF STOP-AND-FRISK LAW
Gaming judge assignment is an old, old abuse, Sarcastro, and it's one that is well documented to happen. When 51 straight 2nd amendment cases all get anti-gun en banc panels in the 9th circuit, you have to be willfully blind to not figure out what's going on.
Not the secret cheating you originally alleged.
You do this all the time - you aren't checking your work because you love your conspiracy theory. You don't bother with a baseline, just assume 51 straight cases is all there are. You don't bother to calculate the odds of how many panels you'd expect, or the expected deviation.
You are enough of a technical person to know you need to do this to back up what you're saying, but you just link some completely irrelevant article instead.
See Brett? It may be cheating but not secret. It may be secret cheating. But it's not precisely and exactly the secret cheating Sarcastr0 imagines your description to be. Take that, Brett!
Corrupt behavior once again gets a pass. Lol!
They’re The Good Guys, Brett.
How is it cheating, if everyone knows what's going on? How is it corrupt, if it doesn't violate any regulations?
Those are both utterly bizarre questions. Really, they are.
Stamping your foot and saying 'it's not fair' doesn't mean it's actually unfair.
You notice how that doesn't describe some secret scheme?
The 9th circuit alleges that the judges on panels are chosen at random.
The statistics say that's highly unlikely.
So, a "scheme", and since the people running the random judge assignment system haven't owned up to it, yes, "secret".
There doesn't have to be any scheme for it to come out this way if the Circuit has an anti-gun majority. If the panel rules against the 2nd Amendment it's upheld by the anti-gun majority. If it doesn't, the anti-gun majority simply overrules it.
Though I don't think the Ninth has ever held a full court panel for what it's worth.
There doesn't have to be any scheme for the 9th circuit to come up anti-gun 70% of the time. To come up anti-gun 100% of the time in 51 cases, there pretty much DOES have to be a scheme.
Again, Brett, you have no baseline for your 51 cases number. Is it all the cases? Only some of them? You don't even seem to care.
On a more practical note, one of the issues here may be that the 9th circuit is simply too large. Too large in geographic area, too large in population, too large in caseload, just too large. It's unwieldy en banc, and there are a host of other issues.
It should be split. There is precedence for circuit courts being split before (in 1981). Split the 9th into 2 roughly equal areas.
I agree that the Ninth Circuit should be split. But I'm not sure I see the connection between the size and the hoplophobia. Since any plausible division would tend to concentrate the crazy judges, that seems like if anything it would make the problematic opinions more likely.
Yeah, I agree the 9th is too big.
I had an internship at the Administrative Office of the Federal Courts back in law school, and everyone there agreed it should be split even back then.
It amuses me how many think splitting the 9th would be some kind of sick conservative masterstroke. It's just good administration.
The problematic opinions are already there, especially with the en banc decisions. Splitting the court would just mean that less of them would be available for the en banc court.
I do see something of a connection. The size results in that odd 9th circuit practice of "limited" en banc panels, something you don't see in other circuits. That enables gaming the composition of the panels.
But again, creating a new circuit composed primarily of the "bad" judges would obviate the need for any gaming (granting, for the moment, your dubious premise that it's occurring).
I think the statistical case for it happening is pretty strong.
Challenging the Randomness of Panel Assignment
in the Federal Courts of Appeals
Admittedly this paper was analyzing the statistics of 3 judge panels, not the en banc panels, but it found that the statistics for the 9th circuit made it practically certain that the panel assignments in the 9th circuit are NOT random, but instead are being manipulated to produce an excess number of panels dominated by Democratic judges.
The 2nd circuit was a bit of an outlier, (In the opposite direction!) though not to the same extent, and the statistics for the other circuits looked normal.
The bottom line is, they may claim they're assigning the panels randomly, but they're probably lying.
The Ninth Circuit has a documented history of secret rules that biased panel assignments.
I don't see any basis to conclude that there are similar rules in the en banc selection process.
Hey look, Brett, here is how you prove a thing like what you alleged:
https://verdict.justia.com/2014/12/01/mystery-case-assignment-ninth-circuit
Well, that's nice, I provide a link to the proof, and you show me how to prove it.
Are you going to concede that it's rational to believe the en banc selection process is as rigged as the 3 judge panel selection process?
No, you provided a link to no proof.
I literally linked to a statistical analysis showing that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the 3 judge panels in the 9th circuit are not being constructed with partisan discrimination. What do you want, predicate logic?
I read you link. It was not a statistical analysis, it was someone on Ken Starr's team with a bunch of anecdotes and no numbers.
Apparently you only followed one of my links, the first one to an editorial about the case assignment scandal during the Clinton administration.
You mean the one that you said 'Admittedly this paper was analyzing the statistics of 3 judge panels, not the en banc panels'
An irrelevant statistical analysis is not really important in this discussion.
"I don't see any basis to conclude that there are similar rules in the en banc selection process."
Do you see any basis, given that they have secret rules that bias panel assignments, to think that they wouldn't handle en banc panels in the same manner? Do they have any less motive to rig that selection, than to rig the selection of 3 judge panels?
This is not how proving works.
Yes: Ninth Circuit Rule 35-3 requires the limited en banc panel to be selected randomly, so any rigging would have to not only be secret, but in direct violation of the public rule.
Incidentally, the rule also has en exemption to the random selection: in the absence of recusal or unavailability, the chief judge is always on the en banc court. Since the chief judge was, from 2014 until last month, the extreme liberal Sidney Thomas, the hoplophobes effectively started one vote ahead.
"Yes: Ninth Circuit Rule 35-3 requires the limited en banc panel to be selected randomly, so any rigging would have to not only be secret, but in direct violation of the public rule."
Well, it appears you're right, their rules don't explicitly prohibit rigging the three judge panels, but do the en banc panels. I believe that's what is known as a "parchment barrier", but I'll grant that it IS at least some sort of barrier.
I'd like to see a statistical analysis of the en banc panels similar to what has been done for the 3 judge panels.
Traditionally, the statistical analysis comes before making such claims.
Try that next time.
Federal Courts should never be the last word on any interpretation of the Constitution. That should be the States. A majority of States should be able to weigh in and force any State not abiding by the Bill of Rights for for that matter the Federal Govt to stand down. In the end the States should decide all Federal matters..they created the Federal Govt and it serves them.
No, the states did not create the federal government.
They didn't?
I was under the impression states sent delegations to draft the Constitution, then the state legislatures voted their assent to disolve the confederation, and join the United States of America.
Was there a popular plebiscite I missed?
States turn out not to be people.
"We the People of the United States" certainly doesn't preclude meaning the people of each state acting through the their legislatures.
And since that is actually what happened, I'm not going to preclude it.
In any event, it's just a falsehood to sieze on a phrase written by an elite committee and ignore the well documented history of how the constitution was enacted.
Anyone who says the states as sovereign entities did not establish the United States of America is ignorant or a liar.
But I do see it was state ratification committee s that ratified the constitution, by state, not the legislatures.
But my point remains.
If you don't allow that representatives can represent, then you've got bigger problems with America than just the ratification.
Again: the constitution was formed by "We the people," not by the states. This was not an accidental word choice; it was meant as a repudiation of the confederation model of the Articles. And thus state legislatures did not in fact ratify the constitution. (See Article VII of the constitution itself.)
And of course 37 of the 50 states did not even exist when the constitution was ratified, making it impossible for them to have created the federal government. Rather, the federal government created them.
(Well, Vermont existed but it wan't a state. Call it 36 of 50 if you want.)
Might not have been an accidental word choice, but it remains that the people voted for the Constitution by state, and the original 13 states predated both the Constitution and Articles.
None of what you said means the states created the federal government.
Also, I don't really think that matters since the current balance of power comes from the reFounding after the Civil War.
All of that exactly means that the states created the federal government.
And the Civil war couldn't retroactively change the past. Doesn't really matter what happened afterwards, the federal government will always have been created by the states.
It sure means Titus PUllo's objection is not relevant to the modern US.
Even if you were interpreting the ratification correctly, that still means that the federal government was created by 13 states and only 13 states. The rest played no role in creating it.
Which is precisely irrelevant unless you're going to abandon the equal footing doctrine. And I'd like to see the constitutional basis for doing so, nothing in the Constitution so much as suggests that the states are not equal.
1) Number of times the "equal footing doctrine" is mentioned in the constitution: zero.
2) The legal question of whether new states have equal rights to existing states has no bearing on the factual question of whether new states created the federal government. They could not have, and did not. The federal government created them.
Number of times the Constitution NEEDS to be mentioned in the Constitution: Zero.
1) It refers to states, and provides not the slightest hook for treating them differently.
2) Does anybody claim that the states that entered the union AFTER it was created somehow used time travel to create the federal government?
The federal government was created by the original 13 states. Some of the remaining 37 were created by the federal government, some were preexisting political entities that were adopted as states.
Yes, the people voted for the constitution by state. It wasn't the state governments. It was the people of the states.
Yeah David, just to add to your comment (state legislatures did not ratify the constitution) - you're 100% right. The Founders studiously and assiduously avoided a direct vote by the people in any state to get the Constitution ratified. Ratification basically done by 'special' (read: stacked deck from the people who were sent) conventions convened for that purpose. I was always fascinated how ratification happened without an actual vote by the people themselves.
Was there a popular plebiscite I missed?
Kazinski, there have been so many. How could you miss them? Every election is an exercise of the sovereign constitutive power. Every election result, once counted and certified, is a sovereign decree.
"The students must pay an ungodly amount of money to get educated in birtherism and drywall installation."
Please never stop insulting the working class. Ride the consequences all the way down.
Why do you perceive a correlation between "working class" and "academically inadequate?"
South Texas College Of Law Houston is a bad school. Maybe six schools in America -- among 200 or so -- are ranked below South Texas College Of Law Houston. That is a shit-rate institution that disserves our nation and the poor students who pay for a legal education at South Texas College Of Law Houston.
Your bitter seething about perceived slight against working people has nothing to do with the academic failure that is South Texas College Of Law Houston, yet another low-quality southern school.
Just so everyone knows that the pretend martyr to censorship is lying again. The school is a fourth tier school. He is trying to pretend that it is ranked at the bottom of the fourth tier. There's no basis for that. (Even if the rankings were anything other than one publication's opinion anyway.)
The title is wrong. It should be "Will the En Banc 9th Circuit Extend the Second Amendment's Winning Streak to 51 Cases?" Every time sensible restrictions on gun ownership are upheld, the actual second amendment (not Scalia's imagined version in Heller, but Stevens' historically consistent version) wins.
This in from the Bizarro universe where Jim Crow was the 14th amendment winning, too.
Tell us you just hate people exercising rights you don't like without telling us you hate people exercising rights you don't like.
Considering that the right in question allows me to protect myself and my family from criminals, I'd say (s)he doesn't "just hate people exercising [their] rights" -- (s)he just hates people.
Now that's nonsense.
There's a lot we don't know about gun ownership and use stats, but we do know that owning a gun makes it more likely you die from suicide or accident than it does that you'll manage to ward off criminals acommin' to kill you.
Argue rights all you want, but saying those for gun control want people to die is just showing how little you care about reality.
"There's a lot we don't know about gun ownership and use stats, but we do know that owning a gun makes it more likely you die from suicide or accident than it does that you'll manage to ward off criminals acommin' to kill you."
Not true. Having recently bought your first gun makes it more likely you die from a suicide by gun, but that's due to suicidal people buying guns to commit suicide with, the statistical link goes away after a few months, and isn't present except for the first gun suitable for suicide, and requires that you focus exclusively on suicides using guns, rather than suicides in general.
And anti-gun activists similarly rig their statistics on defense with a gun, by only counting defenses that result in a dead criminal.
Wrong: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M13-1301?articleid=1814426.
BTW, that is a meta-analysis so if it's rigged, you have a much bigger conspiracy on your hands.
Notice that they didn't list "reversing causation" among the limitations of their survey? Even though it's an obvious risk?
Show VanDyke is no longer willing to pretend his colleagues are actually doing their jobs. A lot more judges should be doing this. Shamelessness is slightly harder when it is called out and highlighted so specifically in advance.
So it's been your experience that insulting your peers in this fashion tends to produce productive results?
Works slightly better than lauding them for behaving corruptly.
Judges that decide, as you have, that disagreeing with their take on the Constitution means their collages are corrupt, are bad coworkers and bad judges.
You are especially unable to allow for a panoply of opinions as valid. I'm glad most judges are very much unlike you.
Your problem is that you'd put every 'take' on the Constitution on the same level, regardless of whether it agrees with the text, or contradicts it.
Or, maybe, only when you don't like the clause being contradicted? Yeah, I think that's what is going on here.
If the 9th circuit were approving laws that banned books, not magazines, you'd be as pissed off as I am. You wouldn't be all non-judgmental. You're this way because you don't care if the courts pull this sort of shit with parts of the Constitution you don't LIKE.
The Constitution actually has a meaning. Not every 'take' can be squared with it. Some are just right, and some are just wrong, even if there may be some in the middle that are hard to say. And what the 9th is pulling here isn't in the grey zone. You only pretend it is because they're doing it to an amendment you don't like.
Do you think that Judge VanDyke's trolling makes it more likely that the plaintiffs will get the relief that he thinks they deserve? That the Ninth Circuit will vindicate gun rights more aggressively in future cases? That the Supreme Court will provide further guidance?
Or is it worth giving that up to dunk on some liberal snowflakes a little?
I don't think his trolling makes it more or less likely that a rigged en banc assembled specifically for the purpose of ruling against the 2nd amendment will fail to do what it was assembled for. It's merely the sort of treatment they deserve.
What would have worked then? Tell us.
Deleting everything after the second paragraph.
Note that Judge VanDyke wrote an excellent dissent in the en banc case on California's magazine ban only a couple of months ago making the same correct substantive points.
Sticking to that sort of thing instead seems more productive than trying to own the libs.
No, there is absolutely no reason to think deleting everything after the 2nd paragraph would make any difference.
51 out of 51 en banc panels; The outcome of any en banc on a gun control law in the 9th circuit is basically predetermined before any argument takes place.
"Productive"? What was produced? Show us the favorable outcomes.
Your feelings aren’t a product or an outcome.
Your problem is that you'd put every 'take' on the Constitution on the same level, regardless of whether it agrees with the text, or contradicts it.
Or, maybe, only when you don't like the clause being contradicted? Yeah, I think that's what is going on here.
Neither of those are how I think. We've had exchanges for a long time on here; I'd think you're realize that I have opinions, but I have the humility to allow that I could be wrong.
But no, you had to accuse me of bad faith based on a hypothetical.
Asshole.
From what I've seen over time, you simply don't like the rights the second amendment (and now the 14th) protects, because you don't like the idea of all those guns in the hands of all those people who aren't of the same political bent as you. That harshes your political fantasies.
You have my opinion on the 2A wrong. I believe there is an individual right to self defense in the Constitution.
I just don't agree with some of the nuts here that the 2A is different than other rights, nor that there is a bad-faith conspiracy to tear it down so we can have tyranny in the US.
Sounds like you have a picture in your head that's all good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are all cartoons and all the same.
Bad faith is obvious though.
Enabling tryants one pedantic rebuttal at a time.
"that the 2A is different than other rights"
Hmm, I've always thought the complaint was not that it was different - but that it was treated differently.
Or perhaps you can list some of the laws that legitimately impinge on the 1st Amdt, as so many of CA laws do on the 2nd?
This whole rhetoric about 'shall make no law' and 'Constitutional carry' is trying to get the 2A to be a right without the exceptions and balancing tests that every other right gets.
perhaps you can list some of the laws that legitimately impinge on the 1st Amdt,
Obscenity.
Time place and manner restrictions.
Commercial speech restrictions.
Student speech.
Government as employer.
Free exercise under Smith.
The Pickering Connick balancing test.
Public accommodations.
I could go on.
None of those Sarcastro are anywhere near as restrictive or arbitrary as CA's concealed carry law. For someone who disdains "ought" versus "is", you've badly missed the mark.
No, I had to accuse you of bad faith based on your insane excuses for arguments.
Go ahead, tell me: If California had an official list of books people were permitted to own, that was a tiny, tiny fraction of those on the market, excluding whole genres, and every time a new book was added, 3 had to be taken off it, you'd be cool with it being upheld by the courts.
Ought? No that seems unreasonable.
But we are not in ought-land. I've never been talking about ought-land. Because judges live in is land, if and until they become justices. And given current quite loose SCOTUS precedent, it is unclear whether that's legal or not.
I'm interested in what the law says, not yelling about how my ideal take on the Constitution isn't universally adopted yet because all the judges are lying about how right I am. And unlike you I can tell the difference.
"But we are not in ought-land."
That's your excuse for being cool with it, in the case of the 2nd amendment, but not the 1st. And that's all it is: An excuse.
Really, your excuse devolves down to nothing more than 'Practice can't be a violation, because practice defines the extent of the right.' Which is stupid enough, but doesn't even logically apply to analyzing outlier jurisdictions.
Understanding something is not the same as endorsing it.
We live in a society. As such, my take on the Constitution is not the be-all and end-all of validity, no matter how hard I think it is. As such, I care about what's going on in real life.
You see, that's the problem here: It's not enough that your approach to the Constitution is disreputable. (The same approach would have declared Jim Crow an honest reading of the 14th amendment!) The 9th circuit is an extreme outlier in 2nd amendment jurisprudence, and your approach can't even be self-consistent when it excuses outliers.
If the Supreme court were doing its job, either the 9th circuit would have been reined in by now, or the rest of the circuits told to conform with it. But the Court ISN'T doing it's job, it's letting the circuit split fester, tacitly telling the 9th circuit that they can ignore Heller and McDonald, and do as they please.
They did this before: After US v Miller, the Court went 78 years refusing to take any case whatsoever where one of the parties raised the 2nd amendment as an issue. They likely only took Heller because he had PREVAILED at the district court level, so refusing the case would have meant a complete win for the 2nd amendment in the district they lived in.
They're up to it again now: It has been nearly 22 years since McDonald, and the Court has wriggled out of every 2nd amendment case on offer, despite gross circuit splits and the 9th treating their rulings like toilet paper.
And the 9th circuit is likely to just keep getting worse until the Supreme court cuts it out and resumes 2nd amendment enforcement.
Understanding what Jim Crow was and why it was Constitutional was pretty important, actually.
If you want to understand how to refine precedents about the 2A, you need to be able to see other points of view without screaming corruption.
Having a moral compass isn't the end of analysis. Reality doesn't care about your moral high ground.
Is is where we are. Ought is where we want to go.
If you focus only on ought, or - worse - conflate is with ought, you're not going to get anywhere effectively. Not until you're dictator.
I think my opinions are right. But I don't mistake that for my opinions for sure being right. This is not a hard concept to understand for most adults.
After the next Presidential election the Ninth might finally get enough honest judges to fix it despite the Supreme Court.
Probably zero Ninth appointments get confirmed in 2023-2024.
"Understanding what Jim Crow was and why it was Constitutional was pretty important, actually."
Nailed it. In a sense, you don't think we actually HAVE a constitution, just a judiciary.
I think my opinions are right. But I don't mistake that for my opinions for sure being right. This is not a hard concept to understand for most adults.
There are more options than praise or insult your colleagues.
If my coworkers betrayed their duty as Ninth Circuit judges regularly, shamelessly do, I certainly wouldn't be quiet about it.
Why? What do you do when you see your colleagues being thoroughly dishonest over and over and over? Try to profit from it?
In arguments with gun-freaks. I often point out that if you find yourself faced with a tyrannical government, your home-owned stash of guns won't enable you to protect you against the tyrannical government. Their resources are better. The usual answer is: true, private gun-owners won't win a typical war, but they will be able to wage "asymmetric war". The last time someone said this, he gave an example: John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, the DC snipers who drove around shooting random people in 2002.
Is that what the Second Amendment means to you, VC readers? A gun-owner will decide that the Federal government (or his state's government) is overreaching, and behaving in a tyrannical manner, so you'll drive around with some rifles, shooting strangers? In what way would you differ from ordinary terrorists?
Why would you expect us to be concerned that aberrant individuals holding extremely rare views couldn't prevail against the government? We're more concerned about circumstances where the government becomes the enemy of a large fraction of the population.
Josh Blackman...time to eat some crow. SCOTUS vacated and remanded Duncan v. Bonta