"Speaker Removed from Orange County [Fla.] School Board Meeting for Reading from a Book Found at School Library"

But note that the school board chair opined that the book shouldn't be in the library, either.

From OrangeObserver.com (Michael Eng),

Orange County School Board Chair Teresa Jacobs [had] police officers remove Jacob Engels, a speaker during the public comment portion of the meeting, after Engels began reading from a book titled "Gender Queer: A Memoir."

The book, which was found in an Orange County Public Schools high school library, is a graphic novel that contains detailed and graphic depictions of sex acts.

The removal was triggered by the reference to "a new strap-on harness," which will "fit my favorite dildo perfectly"; the chair responded that "the language he just read is inappropriate for this forum," and added that "This is the first time I've heard of this and the board has heard of this. We will look into it, and I do hope the book is removed. OK? And if not, we'll be back here having this conversation again, but I can guarantee you, I did not know that book was in the library." (The OrangeObserver story reports that OCPS did indeed remove the book from the libraries.)

A few thoughts about the legal issue:

[1.] Generally speaking, government bodies that open up time for public comment are seen as creating a limited public forum, where some content-based restrictions are permissible but only if they are viewpoint-neutral and reasonable. It's not clear to me that the board has indeed announced any restrictions on such language (the general rules seem to be here, and they don't forbid discussions of sex), but perhaps I'm missing some such policy.

[2.] A school may exclude books based on their sexual content without violating the First Amendment (even if they don't fit within the First Amendment obscenity exception), though the Court split 4-4 on the separate question whether a school may exclude books based on ideological viewpoint. (See Board of Ed. v. Pico (1982); Justice White's concurring opinion broke the tie on the bottom line question—should the case proceed to further fact-finding—but Justice White expressly refused to express an opinion on the underlying First Amendment issue.)

I saw some talk about the incident online (e.g., here) that struck me as not quite right, so I thought I'd lay things out in some more detail.

Comments

[Cal Cetín]

Sounds like the speaker made his or her point.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Damn I thought you were Chumby for a moment.

[Cal Cetín]

Um, is that good or bad?

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Depends on whether you like puns 🙂

[Commenter_XY]

Definitely good, Cal Cetin.

[rsteinmetz]

Which Orange County was this? I knew of three, FL, CA and NY. A quick check turned up others in VA,TX, VT, IN, and NC. There may be more.

[Eugene Volokh]

Good point, I’ve revised the headline to note it’s the Florida one.

[Krayt]

I wondered so I checked, yep! Orange County, NY is named after the Dutch royal family and not oranges. Wait…nope, unrelated, fruit not named after the family, two completely separate root words.

[Krayt]

So I guess something does rhyme with orange after all — Orange.

[Krayt]

A proper distal-positioned lymeric is still believed impossible.

[Krayt]

Sufficient for internal though.

There once was a man from Oy-wope-ah
Who took over land with great hope-ah!
His House, that of Orange
Knew not of the orange
Then Brits kicked him out, opera soap-ah.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

A Leyland once managing Detroit
feared his fielders insufficiently adriot
He sensed his blue and orange
Could benefit from more Inge
So Brandon at third this Leyland did appoint

[rsteinmetz]

The one in VT is named after William of Orange.
The one in NC is named after William V of Orange.
The one in VA is names after Prince William III of Orange.
The one in IN is named after William III of Orange.
The one in NC is named after William V of Orange.

[Longtobefree]

Just in case anyone thinks Orange County California is coming to its senses, this is the Florida one.

[Longtobefree]

HEY! After the post, I came right back here!
Whining works. (after a few days)

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

I’ve noticed a change which may be related to this comments snafu. Used to be, when you clicked “Show comments”, it showed what had loaded when the page originally loaded, even if that was an hour ago. Now it loads the current comments. I bet it’s related.

[Shabbetai Ẓevi]

Jews playing tricks on the goy. Place deviant literature in children libraries then accost the goy for complaining to a rabbinical court where the Talmud requires expulsion of the disobedient, in full defiance of the goy constitution regarding free expression … except when it comes to the chosen agenda. Note the parent could have talked all day about the lack of teaching of the gassing of six million in the showers along with the moving ground at Babi Yar. But complain about the chosen deviant agenda for the young and be banished.

[Eugene Volokh]

Not only that, but we’re having sex with your gentile women! Bwahahaha.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Why not the rough ones?

[Scooter]

Chafing.

[Diogenes Radar Gun]

Does this humor include the known Jewess preference for BBC?

[Eugene Volokh]

Diogenes Radar Gun: Our women are free to have sex with whomever they like. I’m just saying we’re having sex with your women.

[Commenter_XY]

Sigh. Another one. Better the anti-Semitic loser you see than the one you don’t. You should talk to the other loser just like you, Pavel. You two are perfect together.

[bernard11]

Probably the same guy, XY.

At least we can hope.

[Commenter_XY]

Just as long as we see the sorry losers, bernard. I do not want to silence them, I want them out in the open.

[M L]

Inappropriate for this forum. LOL!

[santamonica811]

Well, as long as the board would act the same with “pro” strap-on speech and anti-strap-on speech, I see no constitutional problem.

Most of the time, in these situations; I think the actor is behaving irresponsibly. But not here. If you think there is an improper book in a school library; I can’t think of a better way to argue this than by reading from it in public. If you are upset about graffiti at your kids’ school, then I have no problem with you showing photographs of that language at this sort of meeting, or with you accurately quoting the language in the graffiti.

I know nothing about this book, so I’m speaking only in the abstract. But if a book is good enough to be in a library, then it should be fine if a person–in a group of adults–quotes directly from that book. (Yes, an asshole can abuse this, and can look directly at a black person while at a school board meeting, and say, “…and now, I will quote from the great literature of “Huck Finn,” . . . and then just repeat the N-word over and over and over and over. But it’s my default position.)

[Cal Cetín]

Yeah, but Biden…wait, I agree with you, never mind.

[Queen Amalthea]

“if a book is good enough to be in a library, then it should be fine if a person–in a group of adults–quotes directly from that book.”

Meh, I think context matters. There are and should be lots of books in libraries, where people can check them out or not if they want, that can have language in them that is inappropriate for many other settings (and yes, even some solely made up of adults).

[Cal Cetín]

The context here was the speaker was telling the school board there was an unsuitable book in the school library system, and the board indicated their agreement by ruling the material unsuitable even to be read aloud by adults at a public meeting.

The greater includes the less, and what’s inappropriate for adults to read from at a public forum is inappropriate for their kids to read from.

[Queen Amalthea]

Again, that’s silly. A 17 year old reading a graphic novel depicting a sex scene is fine, reading it out loud to a public gathering is inappropriate and a bit creepy.

I mean, call me crazy but I think a 17 year old reading a Penthouse letter isn’t much to comment on but your dad reading that letter to your mom, grandmom, uncle, aunt and neighbors at the beach on vacation is a different animal.

[Cal Cetín]

“a 17 year old reading a Penthouse letter”

Did they get the Penthouse in the school library?

I suspect not because that magazine, so I hear, is sexist – ergo, the kid probably found it in Dad’s secret stash. At least he didn’t find the key to Dad’s liquor cabinet.

[Queen Amalthea]

“Did they get the Penthouse in the school library?”

Doubtful, but I picked an even stronger example as the greater includes the less, y’know.

[Cal Cetín]

If they didn’t get it in the school library, your comparison doesn’t seem to fit.

If a book is unsuitable to be read by adults to the school board, what business does the school system have making it available to children?

[Queen Amalthea]

For the same reason I just gave in my example. Mores and informal norms are not dependent on government settings, an individual reading racy material is not harming anyone, a person yelling or saying it to people in a public forum is more likely be doing so.

[Cal Cetín]

What kind of harm?

[Queen Amalthea]

The kind of harm your grandmother would experience if you read a Penthouse letter to her and her friends the next time you drop in on them having lunch in a public place. Do you seriously think there would be nothing wrong with that?

[Cal Cetín]

Do you seriously think there’s nothing wrong with making this *admittedly harmful* material available to children in school libraries?

[Queen Amalthea]

I think a 17 year old (the book is recommended 16 and up) who chooses to read the book is not going to be harmed like someone who has been unwillingly exposed to it.

There’s also the matter that certain settings should have certain decorums. A school board meeting should fit that.

[Cal Cetín]

I’ve already stipulated that the book is “inappropriate for adults to read from at a public forum,” so that leaves the question whether the government should be making this same book available to 16 and 17 year olds.

(I presume that younger children are not allowed to read the book since it’s not “recommended” for them)

[Queen Amalthea]

It’s only offered at the high school library, and for the umpteenth time a key difference is 1. making a book ‘available’ to a 17 year old to be read on their own initiative and 2. the setting (a public forum to talk about school policy =/= a 17 year old’s room).

[Cal Cetín]

Would the book do any “harm” to kids 15 and under? If not, why isn’t it recommended for them, too?

[Queen Amalthea]

I do think a 10 year old shouldn’t read Penthouse, yes (and yet I don’t think it’s an issue if a 17 year old does!, crazy, I know).

[Cal Cetín]

But it would harm a 70 year old like Grandma?

[Queen Amalthea]

If you think it’s normal and appropriate to read Penthouse letters to your grandma and her friends when you come across them at a public gathering I guess we see things differently.

If you don’t, ask yourself why. There’s your answer. It was within you all along!

[Cal Cetín]

“If you think it’s normal and appropriate to read Penthouse letters to your grandma”

Slow down there, chief, like I said, I’ve stipulated this book is unsuitable to read to adults. I presume the same applies to Penthouse.

But if a minor (or by extension an adult) reads this stuff in private, then your harm theory doesn’t apply.

Of course, we’re not talking about a 17 year old reading smut which magically materialized in his room. We’re talking about the school district taking material which you acknowledge is harmful to read to adults and making it available in the school library.

Is there some kind of agreement kids sign when checking out the smut by which the kids promise only to read it in their room, and not to read it to others aloud?

What’s to stop some kid from checking out the book and reading it aloud to other kids, thus by your standards causing harm?

[Queen Amalthea]

If the 17 year old read it aloud at the meeting he should be kicked out too.

“I presume the same applies to Penthouse.”

Not familiar with Penthouse? Maybe you could ask your Grandmother about it? No harm in that that you can see, amirite?

[Cal Cetín]

“If the 17 year old read it aloud at the meeting he should be kicked out too.”

I stipulated that adults shouldn’t be reading from it in public.

I simply disagree with your belief that this same book should be available in school libraries.

[Life of Brian]

That’s 18 back-and-forth posts in 1 hour. Time to go get some fresh air, kids.

[MatthewSlyfield]

“It’s only offered at the high school library, and for the umpteenth time a key difference is 1. making a book ‘available’ to a 17 year old to be read on their own initiative”

If it’s in the high school library, it’s also available to 14, 15 and 16 year olds.

[David Nieporent]

Yeah, like kids actually read books from a school library.

[Cal Cetín]

Fair enough, this dispute does have a 1970s feel about it, though *if* they’re going to run a library they shouldn’t put books in it they don’t consider suitable for public reading, even in the context of criticizing the book.

[Gandydancer]

It’s a “graphic novel” with, apparently, strap-ons and dildos to fit same. There’s not necessarily any need to read anything to get the intended effect.

[Gandydancer]

Dunno for sure if this is the one, but… I don;t think the only objection to it is that it is an “LGBTQ book”.
https://www.axios.com/local/des-moines/2021/10/27/waukee-school-district-lgbtq-books-removed

[M L]

Don’t be dumb. The context is a school board meeting. School board meetings are for making decisions about how the school will be run and operated, including the school’s library.

Clearly, any language that is present in the school’s library is appropriate to discuss at a school board meeting, when it comes to the specific context of discussing whether that language is appropriate to have in the school’s library. Don’t be dumb.

But I like how the chair says, “I hope” it will be removed from the library, as if the decision must rest in some unknowable bureaucratic void. Typical libs.

[Sarcastr0]

You think the guys triggered by talking about strapons are libs?

[Gandydancer]

You think the “guys”(sic) on the School Board aren’t libs?

[Gandydancer]

If this were a book where you actually had to read words to understand what is in it I could understand some illiterate school librarian putting it on the shelf, but this is a “graphic novel” (i.e., a bound comic book). Was it not obvious? And who bought it and why?

If the man couldn’t be persuaded to stop reading from a book I wouldn’t have a problem with removing him even if it was a bound copy of the Constitution.

[Gandydancer]

“”Four copies of the book ‘Gender Queer’ were in three of our 22 high schools,” OCPS Director of Media Relations Shari Bobinski said. “The School Board was unaware this book was available in school media centers.”

So, not just one librarian, one time.

[Michael P]

“I saw some talk about the incident online (e.g., here) that struck me as not quite right […]”

What in that post was wrong? More than the description of the library book as a “textbook”? I’d rate that as about 0.3 NYTs by itself.

Not The Bee is intentionally inflammatory, but that description was the only outright error I noticed.

[Queen Amalthea]

Lol, you’re partisanship blinds you. The post is about as long as a Tweet yet several times makes the erroneous claim the book was a ‘textbook’ rather than a book in the high school’s library. I dunno, I’m not a triggered, cancel culture, book banning snowflake, but that seems like a major error.

[Queen Amalthea]

And a textbook used in class and taught as well.

[Michael P]

Your partisanship is so frothing that you can’t even spell. Yawn.

[Queen Amalthea]

Ah, can’t answer the point, eh?

Hey, maybe you can just have it banned?

[Michael P]

Look, I pointed out the very error you complained about, and also that compared to, say, The 1619 Project, it’s not a very important error. You didn’t make an argument that it was an important error, you just expressed your feelings on the subject.

[Gandydancer]

This is what the woke are teaching your children about relationships and sexuality, and the woke-but-not-totally-woke (presumably like the lady on the board who said she’d never heard of this) are too busy attacking parents instead of the radical ideologues in classrooms.

Nope, can’t say this is “quite right”. It doubles down on “textbook”, with the scare quotes for some reason removed.

[Gandydancer]

… nb: The scare quotes are also removed in the “reminder” immediately above the “not quite right” quote.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Here is and article showing a parent holding up a copy of the book, displaying an illustration to the school board.

Push-back against this book as often characterized as conservative parents trying to ban popular children’s books.

[JasonT20]

Here is and article showing a parent holding up a copy of the book, displaying an illustration to the school board.

Maybe you should re-read that article you just linked (I read it in full). You said something false just now. The woman holding up the book in the picture in the article is not a parent of a child in the school district. The article says that and identifies her as a “community member”. Anyone living within the boundaries of a school district has a right to speak to the school board; they vote and pay taxes too. But there is no need to falsely give someone any extra authority as a parent of a child going to those schools if that isn’t the case.

“Push-back against this book as often characterized as conservative parents trying to ban popular children’s books.”

I think that the dispute over this specific book is about its core message rather than its depiction of explicit sexual situations. It is an autobiographical story from a person that identifies as non-binary. From the publisher’s blurb:

Started as a way to explain to eir family what it means to be nonbinary and asexual, Gender Queer is more than a personal story: it is a useful and touching guide on gender identity—what it means and how to think about it—for advocates, friends, and humans everywhere.

I think some conservatives are just going to resist anything LGBTQ no matter what it is, finding whatever excuse they can to reject something that that treats them as equal human beings and doesn’t judge them as being “sinful”.

[side note: “eir” isn’t a typo, as apparently it is an attempt to create a new non-gendered set of pronouns rather than simply appropriate the plural ones. e/em/eir as opposed to she/her/hers and he/him/his. I’d never seen that before. I’d say that I might get used to using those as pronouns, but the plural ones for a single person will never feel correct to me.]

[Gandydancer]

Your correction is nearly as obtuse as the comment you are replying to. The room is obviously not the Florida school board, and the place actually appears to be in Iowa.

The article proves the basic truth behind the claim “”Push-back against this book as often characterized as conservative parents trying to ban popular children’s books.” Somehow this sex comic is normalized as merely a “LBTQ book”.

And, yes, spending tax money on books that attempt to normalize mental disorders is not OK even if they don’t have pictures. Folks who want to proseletuize for their deviancies can do it on their own dime.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Another incident of harassment and intimidation that justifies Garland’s request to have the FBI investigate parents.

[Queen Amalthea]

Another conservative blow against the woke, trigger warning, cancel culture coddling our precious snowflakes!

[Cal Cetín]

Remind me why this is a matter in dispute between conservatives and liberals?

[Queen Amalthea]

Conservatives have been yelling for a while now that woke SJWs are canceling speech and coddling ‘snowflakes’ with trigger warnings and safe spaces.

Now they’re at school boards yelling about how we have to protect their children from nightmare inducing books in the high school library.

It was all bs to begin with, of course.

[Cal Cetín]

So you have a video of this particular speaker denouncing cancel culture, thus proving himself in some say a hypocrite?

[Cal Cetín]

in some sense

[Queen Amalthea]

Yes, but the video has been banned from being made available to you as it might cause you nightmares.

In other words, your point is silly. It’s obvious conservatives are rallying to his and like efforts and it’s transparently hypocritical.

[Cal Cetín]

Yes, but should this book be available in school libraries?

I too liked the Beastie boys:

“Your pop caught you smoking and he said ‘no way,’
That hypocrite smokes two packs a day”

But I’d still like to know – is smoking a bad idea for kids?

[Queen Amalthea]

So young adults should be protected from even coming across bad ideas on their own initiative? I don’t know what this week’s position is…

[Cal Cetín]

I conceded that pop was an OMG HYPOCRITE for smoking two packs of cigarettes a day, that doesn’t tell us whether his kids should be doing it.

“So young adults should be protected from even coming across bad ideas on their own initiative?”

Wait, are you saying this book has bad ideas in it? Which ideas, if you’re permitted to articulate them?

[Queen Amalthea]

If you’ve conceded the hypocrisy what else is there to say? My point is it’s faux and unprincipled outrage.

[Cal Cetín]

I stipulated (for purposes of this discussion) that it’s the equivalent of dad smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. Does that mean his kids should smoke too?

[Queen Amalthea]

Should 17 year olds be able to go to a library and get an award winning but racy book? Yes. Also, the parent who was going on about how kids are too coddled from ‘bad ideas’ who then goes into outrage mode that their kid did is an unprincipled hypocrite.

[Cal Cetín]

I’ve *already* admitted that Dad shouldn’t smoke two packs a day. He’s unprincipled and a hypocrite and OMG I HATE YOU DADDY!

“an award winning but racy book”

What award was it, the don’t-read-aloud-to-adults award?

[Queen Amalthea]

Are you jonesing for a cigarette or something?

Look, take it this way: Sally criticizes her ten year old daughter for staying up too late while Sally herself stays up late. Heidi criticizes her 17 year old daughter for flirting with 17 year old boys in her class while Heidi herself is a barfly.

Amazingly, one can think the first instance is different than the second.

[Cal Cetín]

So far I’ve learned –

-This book is perfectly suitable for a school library because only 16 and 17 year olds will read it, and in private.

-But it’s not suitable for a public reading, at least not in the context of complaining about its contents or its suitability for children.

If we’re going to talk in terms of us and them, then let’s suppose a parent got up and said “there’s this inappropriate book in the school library, and it’s so offensive I’m not going to read from it.”

The media coverage would be that some parent made vague accusations and insinuations against an award-winning book.

[JasonT20]

“there’s this inappropriate book in the school library, and it’s so offensive I’m not going to read from it.”

“But there are scenes depicted in the book where teens talk in explicit terms about their favorite sex toys.”

That would have been a way of describing what was in the book without quoting something directly from it that some people might consider to be too sexually explicit for a public forum.

Eugene quoted from the newspaper article which described the book as “a graphic novel that contains detailed and graphic depictions of sex acts.” That also conveys enough information to talk about the book and why someone may have thought it inappropriate to have in a school library without quoting the potentially objectionable part.

The thing here is that he likely wanted read that part out loud for the shock value to try and make his point stronger, not because it was necessary to his point to do so.

[Cal Cetín]

“The right-wing parent’s complaint about the LGBTQ classic including a claim that the book discussed ‘sex toys.'”

[Gandydancer]

Jason: “The thing here is that he likely wanted read that part out loud for the shock value to try and make his point stronger, not because it was necessary to his point to do so.”

It is indeed pretty shocking that the school district is buying multiples of this trash. Is there supposed to be siomething wrong with the parent making that point forcefully?

[Cal Cetín]

Suppose he said, “there is discussion of sex toys and other matters so shocking I can’t even read them aloud in this forum!”

Would the media have believed him?

[Diogenes Radar Gun]

Love the Beastie Boys reference. That is all.

[Michael P]

Cancel culture is not about banning books based on their content, it is about un-personing people.

But you knew that, you are just trying to distract with stupidly false equivalences.

[John F. Carr]

I remember a reading book in my middle school library that might not have been there had the teachers paid attention to all the content. (_Slide_ by Gerald A. Browne according to a web search.) I learned something about preventing VD. Maybe. Perhaps the character’s understanding was wrong.