The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Lawyers, Law Students, Law School Administrators, and Language
Yale Law School's diversity miseducation.
[1.] Words and phrases can have different meanings, connotations, and associations to different people. "Work will set you free," for instance, might seem like a perfectly good slogan to many. (Consider freedom from economic dependency on parents or spouses or the government.) But it might not work well for listeners who know it was also the sign written in German at the entrance to Auschwitz. At least it will yield an unpleasant association for them—never a good effect for a slogan supposed to inspire people. And it might make them question the motives of the speaker, even if they ultimately answer the question with "he probably just didn't know the connection."
Likewise, using "he" as a generic singular pronoun might seem like a normal convention to some, but might make others bristle. Same for using "they" for the same purpose, which some readers might find normal and convenient, but others might find linguistically jarring or view as a distracting or disagreeable political statement. Nor is this limited to political reactions: To many, "decimate" means "To inflict great destruction or damage on" or "To reduce markedly in amount"; others think of the historical meaning, which involved killing, and in particular killing one out of ten. And such differing reactions are an unsurprising consequence of "diversity," in the simple sense of people with different experiences, educations, and attitudes coming together in one institution.
It's important to teach law students—and other students—to be keenly aware of such possibilities as speakers and writers. I often do that myself, especially when I teach my brief-writing clinic. (For instance, I routinely recommend that students avoid pronoun controversies by, if possible, pluralizing the referent and then using "they," which few readers would find controversial and distracting in its traditional plural context.)
At the same time, this goes both ways: It's important to teach students to be aware of the risk that they are seeing intentions and evil future plans that were not intended. Few people want a lawyer who constantly bristles at every term that could be interpreted as something bad, whether from opposing counsel, from prospective partners in a deal, from the lawyer's own client, or from coworkers. If a lawyer tries to argue that the other side's reference to Popeyes Chicken is actually racially offensive, because Popeyes Chicken is fried chicken and fried chicken has been used as part of anti-black stereotypes, the lawyer might well lose credibility with many judges or jurors, who may think that Popeyes Chicken is just Popeyes Chicken.
[2.] Which of course brings us to TrapHouseGate, where a Yale law student member of both the Native American Law Student Association and the Federalist Society e-mailed this invitation to the NALSA list:
Sup NALSA,
Hope you're all still feeling social! This Friday at 7:30, we will be christening our very own (soon to be) world-renowned NALSA Trap House [redacted] by throwing a Constitution Day Bash in collaboration with FedSoc. Planned attractions include Popeye's chicken, basic-bitch-American-themed snacks (like apple pie, etc.), a cocktail station, assorted hard and soft beverages, and (most importantly) the opportunity to attend the NALSA Trap House's inaugural mixer!
Hope to see you all there!
This was then forwarded to all the second-year students, some of whom were upset at what they viewed as mockery of blacks. "Trap house" apparently originally meant, and still sometimes means, a house where people would go to buy crack cocaine, which has generally been mostly associated with blacks; it also became associated with a subgenre of hip hop music, which is likewise seen as "black music." And Popeyes chicken is indeed fried chicken; blacks have sometimes been mockingly depicted as eating fried chicken and watermelon.
On the other hand, "trap house" also now appears to mean a place where young people of any race gather to drink and party—whether somewhat illicitly (since they're underage) or because they want to jocularly suggest such illicitness (much as some bars or bartender services call themselves speakeasies even though we're long out of Prohibition). The author of the invitation claimed that he was referring to this meaning and not the crack house meaning, which strikes me as quite plausible.
Likewise, there's a prominent podcast run by three white guys, apparently with no hint of racial mockery, called Chapo Trap House ("Socialism for the Extremely Online," according to Vanity Fair, which labels it as "hard-left"). And Popeyes Chicken is apparently much loved by many people of all races (see "The Popeyes Chicken Sandwich Is Here to Save America"), and the combination of fried chicken and apple pie is not a racial stereotype.
So here you have terms that can have different connotations to different people, based on their experiences with those terms. That's a good opportunity for people as writers and potential writers to see how what they write can produce a counterproductive reaction. (Again, remember that the e-mail wasn't supposed to be damn-the-reaction-I-must-scream-what's-in-my-heart self-expression, but rather an invitation aimed at persuading a broad range of people to do come to a party.) And it's a good opportunity for people as readers to see how their first reactions may be mistaken, and can counterproductively exacerbate tension.
[3.] Yet consider Yale Law School's response. The associate dean and the "diversity and inclusiveness director" called the author of the e-mail in to discuss the controversy—itself perhaps an overreaction, but perhaps justifiable. But rather than framing it as "here's how we can all learn to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings," they called him with a message labeling this a "deeply concerning and problematic incident." And, to quote the liberal Northwestern professor Andrew Koppelman,
Then came this disastrous blunder: "The email's association with FedSoc was very triggering for students that already feel like FedSoc belongs to political affiliations that are oppressive to certain communities through policies. … That of course obviously includes the LGBTQIA community and black communities and immigrant communities." …
This may have truthfully reported how some students feel. But [the director] should have distanced the law school from those feelings.
When the student declined to apologize, they sent out this e-mail:
To quote Koppelman again,
Here mediation has ceased. The law school has taken it upon itself to declare who is right and who is wrong. Colbert was publicly branded as "racist" before his peers.
And, at a follow-up meeting, the director "says, 'You're a law student, and there's a bar you have to take. So we think it's really important to give you a 360 view.' This is more menacing than anything that was said the previous day. It suggests that this episode might be brought up to the character and fitness inquiry of a bar admission." So instead of teaching, we see "bullying" and "coerci[on]" (to again quote Koppelman).
[4.] But as importantly, we see Yale teaching the wrong lesson to students on the other side of the controversy: The lesson that, when you see a statement that has a bad connotation to you, the right thing to do is to ignore the reality of diversity—the reality that different people honestly perceive words to have different connotations—and instead immediately label the statement as "racist" and in need of addressing as "Discrimination and Harassment."
Again, would you want a lawyer working for you who consistently reacts that way, when he's negotiating a deal with a prospective business partner of yours (or even with a litigation adversary's counsel, where often calming the waters is more important than roiling them)? Would you want a lawyer who routinely demands sanctions for the opposing side over things that many judges are likely to just see as minor miscommunications? Sometimes such a reaction might be useful—but much more often it's destructive, of professional relationships and of credibility.
Likewise, would you want a lawyer who would routinely react this way to things you as the client say, or you as a coworker say? Or would you prefer a lawyer, who if genuinely troubled by one possible interpretation of a statement, reaches out to the speaker and asks something like, "I'm not sure I quite understood what you meant by 'trap house'; can you explain a bit more? … Oh, really? That's odd; I took it as some reference to crack houses—you might not know, but that's what trap house still usually means in many contexts—and as some pejorative allusion to black crack addicts. I think some others took it the same way. Very glad that's not what you had in mind."
Which reaction is Yale Law School teaching students to offer in the future, at school, at work, in court, or elsewhere?
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Only criticism, is you shouldn't teach people to claim that the offensive interpretation is the common one. Say in some social circles instead.
Hey, you stinking lawyers, forcing a false pronoun on people is to impose a sick delusion on people at the point of a gun. All PC is case you vile lawyer scumbags. What poster boy for the lawyer dumbass, Volokh, does not say is, all PC is to avoid ruinous litigation by your vile profession. Everyone wants you dead, you treasonous scumbags. I want you corrected.
Yale is a treason indoctrination camp. Its tax exemption should be rescinded. All government funding and subsidies should stop. Then shut it down, seize its assets in civil forfeiture. Use them to fund the Build Back Better Act.
Authoritarian nutjob speaketh!
Delusional about the chromosomal genome in every human cell of its body.
If you can deny that, what credibility remains?
Congratulations, Hon. My favorite scary clown got a Flag commission in the Public Health Service.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rachel-levine-transgender-four-star-admiral/
David, you're an authoritarian idiot. You deserve no response, but let me give you one.
1. I'm not trans or gay or bi or whatever. I'm a dude with outwardly conservative appearance and dress. My name is an internet handle, you moron, it refers to a mythical goat I thought sounded neat. Do you think 12" is a foot tall pianist? Your comments on your assumptions of my orientation from this only further demonstrate your autistic-level obtuseness.
2. Even were your assumptions correct your comments on it would be total irrelevant ad hominens (something you chirp about quite a bit sometimes, but clearly don't get).
3. You're clearly an authoritarian nutjob, regularly talking about having your opponents rounded up and summarily executed and/or nationalizing their property. The fact that your kind of authoritarian nutjob loves Trump says a lot.
Hi, Queenie. Are you a cis gender male posing in order to shower with the cheerleaders?
All my suggestions involve applying the current laws of the US. Now, we have a mass agreement to overlook the massive insurrection of the lawyer profession against the constitutution.
Ironic, a despicable, dirty Commie like you should call anyone authoritarian.
You are the only one here stupid enough to respond to me. I missed you. I had to unblock you.
There's something seriously wrong with you, but that's all too common among Trump supporters. Judge them by their fruits (nuts included).
Love you, my Queenie.
Hi, Queenie, I am announcing I am coming out. I fully identify as being a rich man. I expect everyone to accommodate to my identity by giving me money.
Actually, you are the only one here stupid enough to respond to you.
(And yes, I recognize the mega meta irony here.)
Thanks, David, you are funny.
David B,
Calm down, man. You'll have a stroke.
David,
Calm down.
Are you addressing the correctly spelled David or the incorrectly spelled, Daivd?
Dayvd,
I never noticed that. But calm down in any case.
Did you respond to the wrong person?
What Voklokh most noticably doesn't say is that there should be any accountability for the diversity racketeers who tried to coerce Colbert into signing their "admission" that he was racist.
The higher ups at Yale Law have weighed in, and they're not suggesting any such thing either. They (Presuident, Dean) just complain about how the internet reaction to Yale Law's egregiousness is melting the whiny snowflakes. How terrible!
That is an elegant (and quite forgiving) essay concerning a 'fried chicken trap house sponsored by the Federalist Society.'
Forgiving in one (and only one) direction.
Weird, because at various times you've claimed to be a lawyer and to have worked in newspapers. In either profession, one would have thought you'd have learned that quotation marks are for direct quotes, rather than for words never said by the person you're discussing.
I have whoever that is blocked, but I've been musing about whether it would be useful to have some punctuation mark for a satirical quote. When you want to make it obvious that you're providing a "this is what they REALLY meant" kind of "quote". You can explain that ahead of time, or maybe use a /s or /sarc after, but it's not always sarcasm and a quick obvious symbol for it would be really helpful. Like subscript quotation marks instead of superscript.
One way to do it is with a colon, e.g.
Shorter Eugene Volokh: Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance or incompetence.
(And yes, that is not an accurate synopsis of the post, just an example of how to do a 'what they REALLY meant kind of “quote”'.)
Single quotation marks signal paraphrasing. Double quotation marks signal direct quotation.
At least, that's what we learned at newspapers and in law offices.
Federalist Society, traphouse (in some form whose capitalization and precise format I won't look up), and chicken (from a purveyor of renowned fried chicken) were said by the person we are discussing.
Were you genuinely unaware of that distinction, Mr. Nieporent?
I would expect him to be unaware of that.
Everyone is unaware of that, because it's not a thing.
It's easy enough to duckduckgo numerous treatises on the use of the single quotation mark, and I looked at several. None of them mention paraphrase.
YOU are tediously dishonest, but for the benefit of people who would not choose to be, I will mention that you could have written: ~"fried chicken trap house sponsored by the Federalist Society". It would still have been a misrepresentation of what Colbert was advertising, but at least the tilde would have signalled (since it's quite standard for it to indicate "approximately:") that you weren't actually quoting anything.
You are welcome to pretend "Popeye's chicken" is not interchangeable with "fried chicken."
You also are welcome to perceive no racial issue with respect to "trap house."
You are similarly welcome to pretend that race-related language from the Federalist Society is no different from race-related language from another source.
No one outside the clingerverse will credit your assertions, however.
No one outside of a dumbass like you will imagine that your first three sentences have anything to do with anything I said.
Not merely renowned, but in the Northeast at least with a reputation as the fried chicken eatery favored by Blacks. When you think about the allegedly offensive quote for a moment, what was the point of specifying the brand of fried chicken?
Personally, given a choice between Popeye's and Chik fil a, I'd go with Popeye's. (At least in regards to fried chicken, though not chicken sandwiches.) And I'm so white my wife jokes about me glowing in the dark.
Only reason I don't eat their chicken more often is that the line is just too long at our local Popeye's. If they could retain the recipe, but take some hints from Chik fil a on how to handle high levels of orders, that would be ideal.
My wife says she can't eat from Popeye's b/c it uses MSG.
Chick-fil-A is out for, too, in that circumstance.
We got a Chick-fil-A a couple years ago and she does get take-out from there. But I'm not sure if her MSG sensitivity is real or imagined, so there's that.
" what was the point of specifying the brand of fried chicken? "
It's hard to remember to cloak your old-timey intolerance every time; a few slips are difficult to avoid.
Or maybe this was ham-handed trolling?
(I hope that reference to "F-R-O-double G-Y style" does not constitute a violation of the Volokh Conspiracy's civility standards. I am trying to avoid conflict.)
That you're again allowed to comment here is proof that Volokh C. no longer has any civility standards.
Which is why I feel no need to avoid calling a spade a spade when responding to a POS like you.
It of course makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that the uinterpretation of the announcement is a choice between an inadvertent slip and ham-handed trolling. In the nature of things those two are light-years apart.
But not making sense when emitting your slurs is just what you do.
The standards are these, at this White, male, right-wing blog:
Making fun of conservatives: Commenter banned
Using "c_p succ_r" to describe conservatives: Comments vanished, commenter warned against recurrence
Using "sl_ck-j_wed" to describe conservatives: Commenter warned against recurrence
Calling for liberals to be gassed, sent to Zyklon showers, placed face-down in landfills, shot in face, run through woodchippers, etc.: No problem
Using vile racial slur: No problem
Carry on, clingers.
As I already said, the fact that you're still allowed to post disproves most of that.
It's disingenouos of you to provide links to songs as if you are providing evidence that what you are saying is true.
I cannot help but conclude that everything you "support" in this way is false.
"What was the point of specifying the brand of fried chicken?"
Hmmm, it couldn't possibly be because that was the specific brand of fried chicken they were planning to order, was it?
I'm curious: what would be the point of sending out a racist email to everyone, to invite all 2nd-year law students to an event that was supposed to be a fun introduction to two different organizations?
Were these newspapers and law offices located in I'mmakingitupistan? Because that is not English. It's not even British English. Just out of boredom, I googled; there's no style guide that I can find anywhere that says to use single quotation marks for paraphrases.
I learned the single-double distinction 40 years ago, in connection with the rewrite desk at several newspapers.
A stringer or reporter might attend an event and provide raw information by telephone (or, less often, by a crude facsimile machine) to the rewrite desk, which would turn the raw information into publishable content. If a source's words were a direct quotation, double quotation marks would be used throughout the process. If a source's words were provided in an indirect quotation (because the original delivery was in poor form, or the correspondent couldn't remember the precise language), single quotation marks would be used to indicate 'this is the gist of it, but not a printable, precise quotation.' As a reporter and editor, I used -- and observed -- the single-double quotation mark distinction to signal word-for-word or paraphrased quotation throughout my journalism career. I also used it when taking notes or preparing memoranda in my work in law and finance.
Your indication that you could not find this point in style manuals or other sources, however, squares with my quick scan (I'm traveling today).
My indirect quotation of the student's ham-handed message did not mislead concerning what the student wrote or appears to have intended. He used "Popeye's" instead of "fried." That is not an important distinction.
This has triggered an interest in this single-double quotation issue for me. I intend to explore it when I have time. So thank you for that.
You provided a link to a song to prove your point, though, rather than to a style guide, so it must be true.
Well, the organizer certainly did not describe the event as a 'fried-chicken trap house'. He described it as a NALSA (Native American Law Student Association) sponsored 'Constitution Day Bash'. The menu (Popeye's chicken and Apple Pie) was a later detail. Your calling it a 'fried-chicken trap house' is putting words in his mouth to try to create a racial smear. Shameful.
You add '...sponsored by the Federalist Society.' It's telling, isn't it, that you left out the 'Native American Law Student Association' part, isn't it? That doesn't fit your purposes does it? And...is there anybody who thinks Yale would have reacted this way if this announcement had been sent out with exactly the same wording except that the NALSA collaboration was to be with a leftist student organization rather than the Federalist Society? To ask is to answer -- 'Of course not'.
(I sometimes wonder if even you believe your bullshit)
You can put every favorable gloss on that shitty message, which will delight bigoted clingers and puzzle mainstream America (as the recent record indicates, in both directions).
As usual, the shittiness is in your mind. You're the one who had to rearrange and juxtapose words into invented phrases ('fried-chicken trap house') that do not appear in the message while editing out others ('Constitution Day Bash' and 'Native American Law Student Association') that were central to it.
And just which parts of the message are supposed to 'delight' those 'bigoted clingers'? 'Constitution Day'? 'Popeye's Fried Chicken and basic-bitch Apple Pie'? 'Native American Law Student Association'?
Do you have another completely unresponsive answer for us?
You -- and the Democrat Party in general -- have yet to acknowledge, let alon apologize for, the absolutely awful racist policies that they have forced upon the American people. They supported slavery, fought a war to preserve slavery, implemented Jim Crow and founded the KKK to re-create slavery in all but name, segregated the military in WWI, segregated housing in WWII, and to this day insist that minorities are incapable of doing basic things like "be on time" and "work hard", and that the only way for minorities to succeed is to recognize their inferiority, and promote less-qualified candidates over qualified ones -- and if a minority decides to reject this racist platform and endorse conservatives and Republicans, the hair is let loose, the knives come out, and racist epithets is the order of the day.
Yet you have the gall to suggest an email like this is "racist".
"Bitter clingers" indeed: had Democrats let go of their racism, and did everything they could to phase out slavery and integrate former slaves into free society, America would have been far better off than it is today.
An official at an institution was slightly heavy handed and obtuse in dealing with someone with less power there in striving to meet one of the key goals of the institution? In other breaking, big news, Mid-East Peace talks break down!
This happens all the time across institutions of all types. The amount of focus the Right gives to this kind of it is telling of something....
Writing an apology for someone and pressuring them to broadcast it goes way beyond "slightly heavy handed".
But you knew that.
Lol, in the 'real world' the authority would just summarily fire/eject people for less perceived affronts (the freedom of association and at will employment your side loves so much, amirite?).
Which is why it's good to keep government officials' feet to the fire. Or, if a private school, satisfy Rev's desires, by holding them to their boilerplate about academic freedom.
Or, I dunno, stop worshiping (and so selectively!) at the alter of freedom of association and/or at will employment?
Zero tolerance for deluded people like you, Queenie. You are in denial of the chromosomal genome of every human cell of your body.
You're an authoritarian idiot. But don't worry, I don't want any more ill treatment of people like you than eye rolls and laughter.
"You’re an authoritarian idiot. "
Hey, you're the guy who wants people investigated over party invitations.
Ok, so let's take note that this guy thinks that the equivalent of the HR person at your company calling you in and being critical of the office party idea you sent out over company email is rounding up your political enemies and summarily executing them and confiscating their property.
This is brains on Trump.
" the equivalent of the HR person at your company"
Technically, the student doesn't work for the University, it kind of runs the other way around, the student is a customer of the university.
Beyond the incident is the chilling effect that the behavior ofthis nasty bureaucrat has on future student behavior and speech. And "Critical" is implying to a student "nice career you got ahead of you, wouldn't want anything to happen to it"? Which you surely know, but perhaps you appreciate or endorse that chilling effect?
It's debatable whether a student is truly the school's primary customer. I'd say the real customer at most large universities with massive brand recognition or heavy research presence is the faculty. (And I don't mean that as a joke or form of sarcasm.) Students don't drive grant funding or provide patent revenue.
Small, state schools that are largely focused on teaching as many local kids as possible are not in this category.
Less projection, more reflection, please.
Universities don't fire students. They also don't generally expel students for such attenuated, interpretation-driven offenses, because they don't want to be liable for breach of contract. But you knew that.
Your side is the one that keeps shouting "freedom of association" to justify banning and firing people just because snowflakes perceive an affront. That's what this case was all about threatening. But you knew that, too.
Total hypocrisy, because if the political valence were reversed, your "slightly heavy handed" behavior would become an intolerable microaggression.
Interesting comment by Colbert explaining that he recorded the conversation b/c of all the stories he'd heard about admins saying one thing in private and then lying about what had been said in public.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/10/16/yale-demands-law-student-apologize-to-peers-for-triggering-them.cnn
I have difficulty believing that these two slimy snakes would have hesitated for even an instant before doing that.
This young man sounds like a grievance-consumed misfit-in-training with a strange way of expressing issues involving race.
Judge Pryor probably can't wait to put this guy on the public payroll.
Typically, you're not quoting him saying anything indicating any of that. Fact-free assertions is all you've ever got.
Yale Law has an outsized [and unwarranted] impact on the law. So it gets outsized attention.
More outsized than, say, the 11th Circuit (see infra)?
That’s actually debatable tbh. Bob is actually right that there are a subset of schools that have outsized influence on the direction of the law. So I don’t mind the scrutiny per se, but this endless breathless coverage to the exclusion of other things is very very telling.
YLS has hundreds of law students, a select accomplished/lucky few will clerk for a US Circuit court.
" this endless breathless coverage to the exclusion of other things is very very telling "
Conservatives and Republicans are striving to keep their stale, ugly thinking relevant in modern America as best they can (or know how). Cherry-picked, misleading nipping at the ankles of stronger, mainstream institutions seems about all they have left, at least outside the bounds of our can't-keep-up backwaters.
(Another helping)
Your slurs are remarkably repetitive and free of any actual content except brainless venom.
Two music videos, this time.
"The amount of focus the Right gives to this kind of it is telling of something…."
Telling of what? You're responding to a post on a legal blog that is arguing that one of the world's premier law schools is conducting itself in a way that is likely to make its students less able to handle diverse viewpoints when practicing law. Do you have any thoughts on that?
I think it's telling of partisanship. And an anti-anti-racism focus. More fundamentally, it's telling of tribalism. As mentioned infra, this incident has been commented on, what, about half a dozen times on VC while there has been no mention whatsoever about the 11th Circuit clerk? You can't hide behind the excuse that this is about a prestigious law school and this is a legal oriented blog, since the 11th Circuit hiring a law student is also kind of a law related topic.
Maybe that Black people-hating (but not necessarily racist, of course) Eleventh Circuit clerk is related to former judge Kozinski?
Either way, mum's the word in these parts.
Real story with uncontested facts is widely discussed; fully uncorroborated, breathless Jusse Smollett-worthy tabloid journalism effort is brought up only by true believers looking for a distraction. Did you have a point beyond that?
I see you've decided to lie about the facts of the story. The facts are uncontested, as in the principles never contested them.
She sent a text where she said she hated black people. The text screenshots were given by her ex coworkers to the a very good New Yorker journalist. Clanton did not deny sending them but claimed not to recollect them. She also hedged by asking not be "judged." She did not apologize. TPUSA did in fact “assess the situation and took decisive action within 72 hours of being made aware of the issue.” That action? Ending their association with her.
I don't know why you're going out of your way to defend this person by making stuff up and comparing it to a famous hoax. Everyone else seems to be focusing on whether it matters, not whether it happened.
"I don’t know why you’re going out of your way to defend this person by making stuff up and comparing it to a famous hoax."
There may be a reason . . .
Jusse's mistake was actually showing people the noose instead of just swearing up and down it happened and letting useful idiots run with a story that everyone wanted to believe. Jane Mayer was smart enough to just stick with the useful idiots and avoid revealing any specific alleged evidence that could be tested.
She said she didn't remember the text, and that it anyway doesn't represent her beliefs. That it even exists can't be confirmed and there is no context. So, yes, fundamental facts ARE both contested and in doubt.
If there is every a benefit of the doubt to be extended to a racist, Gandydancer is ready for service!
Speaking of racists, the fact that I don't exrtend any benefit of a doubt to you disproves that assertion, too.
If you didn't extend any benefit of the doubt to racists, you would have rejected the Democratic Party decades ago.
I'll agree that I've seen slightly more of this issue than I think is required, but... you chose the wrong article to make that point.
One: I do not think that writing an article past the peak heat of the issue is necessarily an attempt to drag it out. It can just as easily be the result of someone taking their time to consider the issue. I've personally taken months considering an issue before I came up with something that I thought was worth adding to the conversation.
Two: Professor Volokh's article expresses views about the issue that I have not seen elsewhere. I thank him for that, even if he is extending the life of the issue.
As to whether or not Yale was "slightly heavy handed" or when and for how long we should put pressure on people who misuse power against the less powerful; I'll let others argue with you
"Republicans pounce!"
What does it tell?
I continue to be puzzled as to why malefactors are granted the courtesy of anonymity. The dean in question is named Ellen Cosgrove. She should be the subject of an ethics complaint, for threatening to misuse the bar admission process.
(Actually, I know the reason: guild members like Prof. Volokh purport to care about principles, but they close ranks against outsiders.)
Indeed. The failure to call for accountability for the two snakes is telling. Koppelman doesn't, either.
Love how we get, what 8?, posts about Yale Law School and zero about the Chief Judge of the Eleventh Circuit hiring a law clerk mostly notable for texting, “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE. Like fuck them all...I hate blacks. End of story." And he refuses to comment on it when asked. Well I guess he'll comment when the recusal motions come or the Judicial Conference investigates at some point.
Two points with regard to your comment:
1) I too wonder why there has not been anything written in Volokh regarding the law clerk.
2) You seem to be engaging in whataboutism.
If it's whataboutism, oh well. It's important to highlight. Like I said in another thread: no one is required to write about everything or even anything. But when there is a story that touches on something you love to write about: law students, speech and its consequences, race, federal judges, etc. it is extremely telling about them when they completely ignore it and write endlessly about some other controversy that has already been covered to death.
The most charitable explanation is that this is simply deference to Bernstein and Somin (and other occasional posters) from GMU where the clerk-to-be is still a student.
The most charitable explanation....
That explanation is quite a reach. IMO, EV is strongly influenced by his political views in deciding whether to post on incidents of this sort.
I’m actually kind of surprised Blackman hasn’t posted on it to criticize the people bringing it up.
Just wait for it . . .
Indeed. Consider the constant updates on the relatively few cases of 'MeToo' libel vs. reporting founded cases or the regular reporting of relatively rare errors of pro-covid mitigation measures findings/views vs. reporting of the opposite . The sudden discovery of corporate power as possibly censoring viewpoints is also interesting.
"IMO, EV is strongly influenced by his political views in deciding whether to post on incidents of this sort."
Could be. If so, so what?
For one thing, it would give readers here a skewed view of the subjects he comments on. It also might suggest that the bias doesn't stop in mere selection of topics.
"For one thing, it would give readers here a skewed view of the subjects he comments on. It also might suggest that the bias doesn’t stop in mere selection of topics."
This blog, like many blogs, doesn't purport to give readers a comprehensive view of legal news.
And of course EV has biases. So what? You should be analyzing his arguments and supplementing your reading here with information from other sources.
For someone who claims to teach students how to think critically, your claim that we should dismiss arguments on this blog about Yale because no one has posted about a 5th circuit clerk is simply a travesty.
Would you really answer a critique of selective bias of the Tucker Carlson show with 'well, he doesn't purport to cover all the news'? And a critic of the Carlson show should just stick to analyzing his arguments and not comment on his story selection?
Huh? What does Tucker Carlson have to do with anything? In either case, there's no point in criticizing someone who doesn't claim to offer comprehensive story selection for not being comprehensive in their story selection.
It's just a dumb way to try to undermine the post.
"What does Tucker Carlson have to do with anything?"
Analogies, how do they work?
"Analogies, how do they work?"
Sometimes they don't.
So not much.
Just that if you get a lot of your information about these incidents here you might want to keep that in mind.
TwelveInch — Tend to agree. EV makes no secret of his intention to use this blog for political advocacy. Nobody who follows it, at least among the more-left-leaning commenters, by now thinks the VC attempts to either cover legal news impartially, or present forthrightly stories with partisan valence.
As for, "so what?" it's a missed opportunity. In my view this blog comes close to pointing a way toward a method for doing multi-faceted journalism online—news gathering and opinion both served. That has been in critically short supply. The determined slant prevents the VC from becoming something much larger and more important.
"The determined slant prevents the VC from becoming something much larger and more important."
Well, maybe that and the comments that spotlight the partisan polemics, the remarkable Whiteness and maleness, the faux libertarianism, the cheap shots, the misleading content, and other shortcomings.
Cheap shot artist complains about "cheap shots" but, typically, doesn't identify any. (No, the link is not an attempt to substantiate anything. It's a music video.)
I work with the material this bigot-friendly, repetitive, polemical bog provides.
You need to get outside once in a while. At least follow a link and see if you can bring something back with which you can try to make an actual argument.
Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland, just because this blog continues to let you comment here, doesn't mean that this is a bigot-friendly blog. It merely shows that this blog is tolerant of bigots.
And considering how repetitive you are, it's funny how you're complaining of the repetitiveness of other blogs.
Whataboutism and pointing out selective focus/reporting/outrage might be two different things...
And even if they’re not. Oh well. Whataboutism can be a useful tool for clarifying how people view things. Probably why people get so upset about it.
Whataboutism is just a subset of situational ethics, the high valuation of philosophical principles when they support your already-decided position, and the low valuation when they don't.
And as held by the same person on two different issues. This shows either dishonesty in their valuation of the principle, or actual neurosis, the attempt by the mind to hold two contradictory ideas as simultaneously true.
The neurosis is not a feature of politicians as they are psychopaths-lite, and can lie convincingly because they don't care what you think. Knowing lies are not subject to an internal mental battle over its veracity. The brain defect that doesn't activate much emotional concern to "feeling your pain", even as it escapes the lips, has no issue with lying.
I think you're confusing the umbrella with the rain.
In other words:
"When you do it, it's whataboutism; when I do it, it's pointing out selective focus / reporting / outrage."
Makes sense!
Probably because the story itself is dumb. "College student says something stupid years ago, now has prestigious job." She has no authority to decide anything as a clerk. Assuming she's an actual racist, what is she going to do? Deliberately write bad or inaccurate memos to the judge about the law because it could lead to a bad outcome for a black litigant and hope that at least one of the other judges on the panel has an equally racist clerk?
"She's just a racist nurse, she just does what the doctor tells her to do, what's she going to do, not give black patients the same level of care?"
That could be a valid argument if appellate judge clerks routinely
had any meaningful interaction with litigants. But they don't.
Yeah, but they do write memos and draft opinions and make recommendations on cases that influence the judge's thinking. You think this person is going to be trustworthy in analyzing whether a Batson challenge should have been upheld or a workplace has a racially hostile work environment for instance?
And again, what does this communicate to the world about this judge? Do you think black lawyers and litigants, knowing that's who is on his staff, are going to think they are going to get a fair hearing in front of Pryor?
If they had said the same thing about white people or Christians we'd never hear the end of it here (and rightly so).
Not from me.
And it's cute that you think that hasn't already happened and we just don't know about it.
I don't think it's cute to resist assuming something for which there is no extant proof, it's being careful.
But you're absolutely sure it's happened? Why?
"If they had said the same thing about white people or Christians we’d never hear the end of it here (and rightly so)."
Dilan and Arthur say similar things about Christians all the time, and both purport to have successful legal careers.
"never hear the end of it here" and "purport to have successful legal careers" =/=
Right, we never hear the end of their actual bigotry, and yet disingenuous hacks claim nobody says the kind of things that Dilan and Arthur say.
They do. And those memos are based on the law, not their personal opinions. If the clerk decides to deliberately misrepresent what the law says in order to hurt a litigant, he's not only out of a job, he could get disbarred. And even if he somehow masterfully hides his racism by citing accurate law, it's still accurate law, and appellate cases are decided by at least three judges. And, his secret racist legal arguments have to be more persuasive than the arguments of counsel of the minority litigant, or minority lawyer.
This communicates to the world that the Pryor values competence and ability over the personal beliefs of the clerks he hires, clerks that exercise no authority or discretion over the litigants before them. I'd wager that Pryor didn't even know, let alone care, about some Turning Point USA controversy at an undergrad school four years ago.
"And those memos are based on the law, not their personal opinions. "
Lol!
Yep. Law is a just a big game to see how well judges can fool each other and the public into getting outcomes they personally desire in each case and couching it in legal jargon.
You don't have to be a Critical Theorist to reject the naive formalism you're peddling.
"I’d wager that Pryor didn’t even know, let alone care, about some Turning Point USA controversy at an undergrad school four years ago."
So he doesn't vet his hires? Great excuse.
"This communicates to the world that the Pryor values competence and ability over the personal beliefs of the clerks he hires."
The clerk at the mid-tier school who wasn't on any journal let alone an editor of law review and doesn't appear to have any other notable legal accomplishments? Sure.
"And those memos are based on the law, not their personal opinions."
Law that is open to interpretation. And more importantly: facts that are open to interpretation. Take an appeal on summary judgment in an employment discrimination case. Can we really trust this chambers to correctly interpret something as a hostile work environment when viewed against a bunch of persuasive authority from other circuits and district courts? I wouldn't.
I assume he vets them based on competence and criminal records, not whether they said something once that offended people.
I mean, Democrats on occasion hire literal convicted terrorists, and we're supposed to be outraged because somebody said something bad?
Remember when these guys lost their shit over the failure to wear a flag pin? Or when someone kneeled quietly during the anthem? Etc.
What did she say Brett?
“I HATE BLACK PEOPLE. Like fuck them all...I hate blacks. End of story.”
I assume she got over that attitude, or else she wouldn't have been hired by, for instance, Clarence Thomas' wife. But the left isn't big on redemption, unless maybe you're bombing police stations.
" This communicates to the world that the Pryor values competence and ability over the personal beliefs of the clerks he hires "
It communicates to the world that Judge Pryor tolerates, if not actively embraces, racism when conducting hiring with public funds.
I wouldn't expect the average right-wing Volokh Conspiracy follower to apprehend or acknowledge this point.
You're just angry that the tweet wasn't made about black Republicans. If it were, you'd be outright happy.
Now that you mention it, I can't help but wonder: is there any evidence that this clerk has deliberately lied about the law as a clerk? If so, shouldn't that be a far greater controversy than a tweet made several years ago?
She isn't a clerk yet, so there cannot be any such evidence of that. Her hiring was announced.
I was in college. I said lots of dumb things. Some offensive. Never took the time to text people in all caps about how much I hated another race. (Also she's only 25-26, when you're that young you get judged by what you did in college). The bigger issue as far as the clerk-to-be goes, is she never denied that she sent these texts and she never apologized.
But this isn't what the story is really about. The story is actually that the Chief Judge of a federal circuit court, and known feeder for SCOTUS clerkships, who is drowning in applications from the smartest law students all over the country choosing to take someone without a lot of notable academic achievements but with a documented history of anti-Black racism.
And more damningly he refuses to comment on it, as if he doesn't care that this makes him and his court look like a forum that at the very least tolerates unapologetic anti-black racism. He could say he thought the story is fake. He could say she offered a heartfelt apology and doesn't hold those views anymore. He could say what you said: it was something dumb she said in college, even if that's a super weak response.
His silence communicates contempt for the public that pays him, the litigants that appear before him, and his colleagues on the bench. He has an obligation to them to assure them that his chambers doesn't countenance anti-black racism and that it is a fair forum.
Lol it doesn't make his court look like anything. If she's incompetent or racist, she's not going to last very long anywhere.
Neither is he obligated to discuss his hiring decisions with you or anyone.
The thing that really irks you is that you can't stand that this person isn't being punished as you would like, because if she were, that would make you feel morally comfortable and superior. Grow the fuck up, dude.
No. What irks me is that a federal judge seems to think it is okay to have an unapologetic racist on his staff. He does have a moral obligation to assure people that he isn't a racist and he doesn't endorse it.
I don't want her punished. I just don't think she should be rewarded with one of the most prominent clerkships in the country without a forthright and public accounting for her statements.
So we've gone from "she texted this a few years ago" to "she's an unapologetic racist and the fact that he hired her presumably makes him a racist and that he endorses her racism and she should not have a prestigious job without first accounting for her past moral failings in a public struggle session."
Listen to yourself. You've never met either of these people. At most you've done a few internet searches and read an expose on private texts sent by an undergraduate, but yet you're certain of what they believe, who they are as people, and how they will conduct themselves professionally. And to the extent that you have any doubt, the doubt itself is justification enough for you to demand that they explain themselves to you.
They don't owe you shit to assuage your perceptions. Neither of them have done anything to violate any legal or ethical code, and even if they did, they wouldn't answer to you. If you were a black litigant before Judge Pryor and tried to get him recused based on what you know and what you're saying, you would lose. Badly. And that's not a reflection of a racist legal system, but a reflection that actions matter more than words, especially when they are words spoken years ago by someone who has no authority over you.
So again, grow up. You don't think she should have gotten the job because you deem her morally deficient. Too friggin' bad.
“Grow up.” The last refuge of people with no argument other than “sucks to suck.” I guess it’s childish to not want a racist judiciary now.
Actions do speak louder than words. And their actions are extremely telling. We know what she said. We know her other credentials. We know she never apologized. So we cannot assume she doesn’t hold these views and that Pryor doesn’t endorse them.
And yeah. They actually do owe me. As a member of this profession who has to read and apply their decisions they owe it to me to assure me and everyone else they aren’t the product of invidious racism.
LTG,
I gather from the comments that the clerk's emails were at least a few years ago. I also gather that we have no idea of the context. Perhaps you excuse words uttered in anger and perhaps you don't.
What none of us know is 1) what she thinks now and 2) how she mitigates any effects of previous or residual bias.
What we do know is that people change and their ideas and their feelings evolve.
What that topic actually has to do with the racially driven actions of a Yale dean is very far from obvious.
Overall, Yale has changed over the past decades and at least in some ways not for the better.
There isn't any context to make that better. I've been mad. I don't say I hate another race to other people.
"What none of us know is 1) what she thinks now and 2) how she mitigates any effects of previous or residual bias."
This is the heart of the problem. Pryor and Clanton refuse to clear this up.
So you've never had road rage. Bless you!
But I agree that she should clear this up. That would be good for all concerned
Also Don: it was a text. Like she had to think it out. Maybe it was a drunk text, IDK, but you still had to think it out.
You do realize, she did "clear it up"....and said she had no recollection of any such text. And that wasn't the person she is no, or was as a teenager.
Actually, we do know what she thinks now.
She says that is not the person she is now, or was then. And she had no recollection of sending any such text.
Not a denial or an apology.
LTG...I am glad you provided me with links about this. I would like to read more about this myself. I am certain there is more to this story that we do not know. What I will say is that what I have read has made me sit back, and think: Yeah, we need to know more about this.
We heard one side of the story. I'd like to hear the other side. Then make my judgment.
Ball’s in Pryor and Clanton’s court. All they need to do is say: 1) she never said this or 2) she did but she feels extremely remorseful and categorically rejects racism.
Would you believe her if she said that? = she feels extremely remorseful and categorically rejects racism. And if she did say that, is it disqualifying for her current position (assuming it is true)?
I have to say, the whole affair does not sit well with me. Agree the ball is in Judge Pryor and Ms. Clanton's court. I will BOLO for more information about this.
As to whether this should be a VC post...Ugh. That is hard. Glad I am not Professor Volokh. 🙂
Why wouldn't I believe it?
Biden nominated an eco-terrorist to head the BLM. Weatherman terrorists have had respected careers in Democratic circles. And we're supposed to freak because somebody said something naughty, rather than, say, planting bombs or spiking trees?
"somebody said something naughty"
Saying you hate all black people is just saying something 'naughty' for Trumpistas like Brett.
Brett....let me answer you this way. I want to hear more about this. Namely, the context in which the controversial comments were made, why they were made, to whom they were made, for what purpose. Then I want to know if Judge Pryor even knew about them before agreeing to hire her.
There is too much here to just ignore. I'd rather the whole thing come out, and then we decide for ourselves. Judge Pryor made his decision. Perhaps he will explain it. I very much want to hear what he has to say about it.
Yeah, I'm not seeing a lot of context here.
I have to say, it doesn't look good, but on any reasonable scale hiring an actual terrorist has got to be worse than hiring somebody who wrote something offensive when they were young and stupid.
As I often say, I'm not particular about the standard we settle on, but could we just have ONE standard here?
You mean, should we call someone an "eco-terrorist" because she "said something naughty"?
No, we should call someone an eco-terrorist because they were an active participant in a conspiracy that spiked trees before harvesting.
"No, we should call someone an eco-terrorist because they were an active participant in a conspiracy that spiked trees before harvesting."
While I get that it's possible for a sawmill worker to be injured while processing a spiked tree, I don't think that is the intent, especially when the spiking is announced in advance. In my mind, calling that terrorism waters down the word.
I think it might be better to reserve the word for people who intend to hurt others - McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Ted Kazinski, Bill Ayers, and the like.
"While I get that it’s possible for a sawmill worker to be injured while processing a spiked tree, I don’t think that is the intent, especially when the spiking is announced in advance. In my mind, calling that terrorism waters down the word."
When you consider that workers have died because of spiked trees, perhasp "terrorism" isn't quite too strong of a word. Just because they announce their intentions in advance, doesn't necessarily mean their acts aren't terrorism.
And, furthermore, you're ignoring the other side of the coin: the Weathermen who planted actual freaking bombs, and have even spent time in prison for killing people, who are now being appointed to government positions.
Googling her name, it appears that someone else spiked the tree. Her only involvement was announcing that it had been done. So: "said something naughty."
"When you consider that workers have died because of spiked trees,..."
I'm aware of George Alexander being severely injured in 1987, but no deaths. Can you share details of the workers who have been killed?
"And, furthermore, you’re ignoring the other side of the coin: the Weathermen who planted actual freaking bombs, and have even spent time in prison for killing people, who are now being appointed to government positions."
Like, for example Bill Ayers, who I mentioned? I mean, he didn't go to prison like some of his co-conspirators like Kathy Boudin. But what they did had a lot more potential for harm than tree spiking.
Would you believe her if she said that?
Well, the New Yorker writer claims to have screen shots of the texts. Could be forgeries, I suppose, but why risk a career to make them up?
The writer got them from someone who could be motivated by animus?
I'm pretty sure I could fake a screen shot of a tweet if I felt like it.
Considering how much falsehood I have seen in the past few years propogated by the Media, I'm not entirely convinced that "making it up" is the career-exploding move you think it is.
If she were to say that she categorically rejects racism that would remove the seriousness in my mind at least.
Yeah, we need more of the story here, Don Nico. That is for sure.
Maybe he'd just be more comfortable thinking that an extremely high Court not tainted by having an unrepentant racist is a good thing for those who live in that Circuit? I get YMMV.
You've used racial slurs to refer to Justice Thomas in this comments section, which I guess makes you an unrepentant racist. And you think you can fairly grade black students?
Yeah, nice try at that judo move. People who don't really get something often try to use it.
Lol. It's not racism when you do it?
You failed to stop three words in to your second sentence. I get it that you wouldn't get it.
Racists like you often don't get things. But you should really pay attention when others try to help you see the problems in your claims.
I see that QA did not answer the question. Why are simple questions so hard to answer, and especially answer with the whole truth.
I have no idea whether she's unrepentant.
I mean, we literally do. When asked about it, she didn't, you know, repent.
In fact, she gave about the most lame-ass possible response; she said that she didn't remember the text. I mean, WTF does that even mean, other than that she's a liar but at least clever enough to realize that denying it would have made the story bigger since there was evidence? (Unless, I suppose, she just sends so many racist texts that she honestly can't remember that particular one.)
She also hedged big time by asking not to be "judged" because that doesn't reflect who she is.
"Grow the fuck up, dude."
Quit talking about things you don't understand -- the role of a federal judicial clerk, for example -- and maybe shade back on your strenuous defense of racists and racism a bit.
Clanton's quote indicates to me that the New Yorker reporter didn't show her the tweet or describe to her when it was supposed to have been sent or to whom. Otherwise the "when I was a teenager" bit doesn't make any sense. She wasn't a teenager when she left TPUSA. It's her boss there who was the recipient and NY's sources, so I smell bad blood. And maybe a smear/hoax.
"recusal motions come or the Judicial Conference investigates"
Neither of which is actually going to happen.
Its a clerk, not the judge. Litigants are generally not filing losing motions that will only piss off the judge nor will other judges want their own clerk decisions reviewed by the Judicial Conference.
[I mean there might be one recusal motion and when it is denied without comment, there won't be others.]
This is about the Judge and what views he chooses to endorse. And if you have a judge who appears to be an open anti-black racist, or at least appears to tolerate it, there is going to be pushback, hard, from litigants.
I guarantee you, that if some Democratic appointee had hired a clerk who was famous for saying "I hate Jews" and was associated with Students for Justice in Palestine, we would never ever hear the end of it from conservative media or the conservative legal establishment.
And if you think that this stuff has no impact on cases, maybe you should ask Texas prosecutors how their quest to execute Randy Halprin is going.
You would certainly not have heard the end of it from Bob.
"And if you have a judge who appears to be an open anti-black racist, or at least appears to tolerate it, there is going to be pushback, hard, from litigants. "
Maybe once. Lawyers are not going to keep filing hopeless motions just to satisfy your anger.
Its a clerk for an appeals judge. Not a trial judge.
No. But they will file them to make a clear record of what is happening. And I fail to see what him being an appeals court judge has to do with anything. Any countenance of racism is intolerable. We wouldn’t let someone who openly endorses anti-black racism on a jury, another collective decision making body, so I fail to see how we should tolerate it from a judge on a tribunal or a judge’s staff.
"clear record" for what purpose?
Panel makes a decision, you can seek en banc review or file a cert petition for S/C review.
I don't see how a racism accusation against a mere clerk will lead to an en banc review or a cert grant.
Maybe read their decisions on racism in jury deliberations.
Jurors are decision makers, a clerk is not.
The other judges or justices know Pryor, he's a peer, a fraternity member. They are not going to impute her isolated comment to him.
You can chose to recognize that fact or not.
The clerk has significant influence in the decision making process. You really think the person with demonstrated anti-black animus is going to be giving great analysis in factually close cases involving race?
“They are not going to impute her isolated comment to him.”
We actually don’t know that they won’t.
Says you.
LTG,
Just curious. Who did you vote for President in 2020?
Clanton said to the New Yorker reporter that she didn't remember the textt and that it didn't represent her views "as a teenager". So it sounds to me like the reporter didn't show her the screencap or even tell her when it was supposed to have been sent. Hasn't shown it to us either, despite most likely having its recipient (Clanton's boss at TPUSA, iirc) as her probable source.
Pryor believing her is not "think[ing] it is okay to have an unapologetic racist on his staff." Your lying about this is tedious.
I'm not the one lying. You are the one making up ridiculous claims about a hoax, when no such evidence exists.
I've pointed to the internal evidence in the New Yorker story. You, on the other hand, choose to be both credulous and unhinged because it suits your anti-Pryor narrative.
"if you have a judge who appears to be an open anti-black racist"
And how do you know that really? How do you know that the clerk did not explain and apologize to Pryor, and that the judge out of an abundance of charity accepted her statement?
Of course you don't. Neither does anyone else except the judge himself.
Or is guilt by association sufficient reason for dismissal in your moral codex?
We know that neither the clerk nor Pryor said that. Why are you inventing defenses that the people actually involved in the events didn't use? How do we know that OJ wasn't acting in self-defense when he killed Nicole and Ron? We don't literally know that he wasn't, but if he himself didn't raise that defense, I'm not going to consider it as a possibility.
But again, what makes this a particularly bad look for Pryor is how unqualified she is for the job by conventional standards.
"I guarantee you, that if some Democratic appointee had hired a clerk who was famous for saying “I hate Jews” and was associated with Students for Justice in Palestine, we would never ever hear the end of it from conservative media or the conservative legal establishment."
And I guarantee you that, even when we don't hear the end of it from conservatives, the Democrats would just ignore it, and move on with their lives.
We know this because (1) this has already literally happened, and (2) this is exactly what the Democrats did, and continue to do.
"Love how we get, what 8?, posts about Yale Law School and zero about the Chief Judge of the Eleventh Circuit hiring a law clerk mostly notable for texting, “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE."
AFAIK, this blog doesn't purport to be a comprehensive source of legal news. There are plenty of places to read about the clerk who thought bad thoughts if you so desire.
Wow, so Cop Out wasn't just a bad Kevin Smith film!
See above: when there is a story that touches all your interests and you ignore it, it can be very revealing.
“ There are plenty of places to read about the clerk who thought bad thoughts if you so desire.”
The “bad thought” was what she explicitly texted to people, you quoted it in your post. That’s a little bit more than merely “a bad thought.”
To be clear, someone (apparently her former boss at TPUSA) apparently gave what he claimed was a text from her to him (not "to people") to the New Yorker reporter. (Why?) No one else, AFAIK, has seen it. The reporter got a quote from Clanton that appears to indicate that Clanton didn't get to see it either, or know when it was supposed to have been sent. (She wasn't anywhere near being a teenager when she left TPUSA.) So, no, we don't actually know very much.
Besides blacklisting her from employment -- presumably for the rest of her life, because she will never have a time machine to go back to her youth and not say what is alleged -- what other punishments would you like to see her subjected to?
I don’t want her blacklisted from employment. I don’t want her “punished.” She can be a lawyer. She can have a career. What I object to is a federal judge seeming to reward an unrepentant racist with one of the most prestigious and powerful positions in the legal world and not saying anything about it.
"most prestigious and powerful positions "
She's a law clerk.
Tell me you don't understand the importance of federal clerkships without telling me you don't understand the importance of federal clerkships.
Maybe that information doesn't make it to Can't Keep Up, Ohio?
"What I object to is a federal judge seeming to reward … with … positions…"
So you only want her excluded from some levels of employment. What specific jobs should she be allowed and disallowed?
It’s very hard to imagine someone like you offering this sort of complaint and seeking these sorts of banishments ever agreeing she may be employed as a professional. Maybe for a time while you are distracted, but next time she catches your attention we will all be expecting another I object to [whomever] offering [whatever professional job] to [her].
Uh no. I really don't care if she wants to be a lawyer at some rando firm or whatever. But if she's going to be influencing public policy, I have a huge problem with that.
Yeah. People are well aware of this sort or exclusionary thinking. Only one point of view may ever be allowed to have any influence, lest people start thinking we have government by the people or something.
The point of view at issue is: I hate black people. Do you think that point of view belongs in the federal judiciary?
One sentence communicated many, many years ago isn’t a "point of view".
Just say you agree with it; it would be shorter and more accurate.
^ libel
It especially isn't her unrepented point of view if she denies ever having believed it.
And there's actually no real proof that she ever texted it, btw.
"an unrepentant racist"
But you don't KNOW that. It is your assumption.
Based on the facts in evidence. She said something racist. She did not repent.
"She said something racist" is a fact in evidence.
"She did not repent" is mistaking the absence of evidence for evidence of absence.
Fine. Publicly repent. So that we the public, whom she is about to serve, know about it.
We don't even know that she ever sent any such text.
She denies ever being a racist, which means she denies having any need to repent for being one. Apparently Pryor believes her.
It's too bad Yale Law School diversity directors are so clueless about diversity that they need a professor from UCLA to explain it to them.
Do you mean the professor UCLA has to apologize for?
That sentence is as broken as your brain.
Yep. "We demand you be sensitive to our point of view, but we have zero interest in being sensitive to your point of view."
Lol there was a comment on the blog yesterday about how 6 million jews weren't killed in the holocaust. Maybe not all views are worthy of sensitivity...
The equivalence you are drawing between Holocaust denial and membership in the Federalist Society is on a par with recent comparisons made here ay Volokh by a couple Team Stupid members (incl. you?) between Thomas Jefferson and Hitler, Stalin, the Armenian Genocide and some other Horribleness that I can't quite recall.
"blacks have sometimes been mockingly depicted as eating fried chicken and watermelon."
Lol. And Jews have sometimes been mockingly depicted as money hungry, hook nosed, unloyal globalists.
Yes, but we're not talking about Democrats.
We're talking about an email from a student from Yale that apparently touches on how Democrats have represented blacks in the past.
TrapHouseGate? Yawn
Pryorgate. *snore*
I have to say this whole thing is absurd.
Getting upset about serving Popeye's fried chicken? Plus, who knew that "trap house" was some kind of racial pejorative? Not me.
If an administrator does feel the need to do something, then a simple conversation with the student ought to suffice. Blowing it up into a big controversy is idiotic.
Bureaucrats regularly do foolish things in a CYA scramble. Ironically, they were almost certainly motivated by the usual attempt to avoid getting bad press.
Watch the movie The Death of Stalin.
Raw fear is a huge motivator in these situtions.
This is as silly, if not much more, reaction as the diversity bureaucrat here. Stalin's bureaucrats had millions starved and shot, this guy barely leaned on this kid. Stop being hysterical.
"...barely leaned on this kid..."
Merely sent out an email to the entire class describing him as a racist after unsuccessfully demanding that he sign one confessing to be one.
And of course the Yale admin, right up to the top, is standing behind the two snakes.
Great movie.
Concur!
"Even Stalin would..."
"Even Stalin?!!!"
"I hope this room isn't bugged"
Everyone should watch that movie.
“All the good doctors are either in the gulag or dead.”
When Church's Chicken is around, damned right.
Popeye's was founded by a white guy from New Orleans, Al Copeland and one of the original theme songs (Love that Chicken by Popeye's) was sung by another white guy from New Orleans Max Rebennack (aka Dr. John).
I knew Al Copeland he was an outsized personality and entrepreneur. He also raced offshore speed boats, with Chuck Norris as a co-driver.
I sure many African Americans love the chicken. I do - it's always been my favorite.
At one point Popeyes owned Churches.
"Getting upset about serving Popeye’s fried chicken? Plus, who knew that “trap house” was some kind of racial pejorative? Not me."
The first post on this blog about it got all up in arms because it's the same sort of Trap House in this blog's favorite podcast, Chapo Trap House.
Never let outrage get in the face of common sense or fact, bernard
I mean, that isn't even close to an accurate recounting of events; it would take illiteracy or dishonesty to make such a claim.
LOL! Isn't IPL on YOUR team?
Perhaps that's the difference between you and me: I don't have a "team." There are people here whose politics I disagree with, but who I respect for honesty and intelligence. There are people here whose politics I agree with, but for whom I have no respect. Either way, if they say something dishonest I call them on it (with more or less levels of politeness, to be sure), and if they say something that I think is good I endorse it.
Amen, bernard. This is a tempest in an old blue teapot.
Bulldog, bulldog, bowwow wow.
That Yale Law is standing behind the two creeps means it's not.
Professor Volokh,
If you want a pluralistic society, you need to get along with others. But what makes you think you’re dealing with people who want a pluralistic society?
It is in the nature of totalitarian societies to inform and turn on people who are even slightly different or show even slight signs of the wrong ideologies.
Why should good citizens of such a society try to understand what its scapegoats really mean? It’s as irrelevant as trying to understand whether the people in Stalin’s show trials were innocent. One shows ones loyalty by denouncing and spitting on the scapegoat.
If a “guilty” scapegoat isn’t readily at hand, picking one at random serves the social function just as well.
It’s totally inconsistent with the mentality of such a society to expect its members to stick their necks out for whomever gets picked.
You are asking them to base their actions on the mentality of a society that is not merely alien to them, but which they regard as their enemy and the source of their problems, and which could cause them to get turned on and scapegoated by their peers if they are ever perceived as too open to getting along with it.
Of course they don’t want to understand.
"It is in the nature of totalitarian societies "
Captain Hyperbole arrives to battle his accursed foe, Obviously Bad Faith Man!
Cultural anthropologists have long observed politicians strive to turn the masses' hatred against smaller groups. Every one strokes their egos that they are, once and for all, the pinnacle of human morality and ethics.
To quote the Red Skull, monitor of the soul gem, "We are all wrong."
You know that "get along" thing is a two-way street, right?
"'You're a law student, and there's a bar you have to take. So we think it's really important to give you a 360 view.' This is more menacing than anything that was said the previous day."
I'm not convinced this is 'menacing' (though it may truthfully report how some feel), on it's face it could read as "this could be seen as bigoted and you want to work in a professional field where being associated with that could hurt you in your future, it's our job to tell you that."
Sorry, doesn't serve the victimization narrative. Oh wait, wasn't that the sole domain of tHe LeFt?
Yeah, "just doing their job to give him the 360 view" fully explains the email accusing him of using "racist and pejorative language", am I right?
You are quite a piece of work.
"Which reaction is Yale Law School teaching students to offer in the future, at school, at work, in court, or elsewhere?"
Whichever reaction increases your own power. If you're dealing with a fellow student in a context where calling them a racist can hurt them, then by all means call them a racist.
If you're dealing with a superior, or a judge, give them big, wet sloppy kisses on the ass so long as they're useful to you ("wow, Your Honor, your farts smell like roses, and your Polish jokes are so hilarious!"). But reserve the right to go after the person once they're no longer of use and can no longer fight back (eg, once you've milked all the benefits you can from association with your old boss).
Isn't that the lesson?
Jeez, more like Cal Cynic...Who broke your pithos?
Look, I'm sure the preponderance of Yale Law students are king, compassionate and courageous, and won't be corrupted by any lessons the University teaches them.
But assume, hypothetically, that some students get admitted to the law school who are cruel, crafty and cowardly? The latter group of (hypothetical) students, lacking a moral compass, will only refrain from doing bad things out of a fear of punishment.
What effect will the Law School's behavior have on the incentive structure facing this latter group of (hypothetical) students?
It will show that any pretext will do to browbeat and bully the weak and vulnerable, that such behavior, far from being rebuked, will be rewarded, and that the way to get out of a scrape is to kowtow and cringe before whoever has the most power.
In short, the University is enabling Lawful Evil behavior.
"A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises....
"Lawful evil is sometimes called “diabolical,” because devils are the epitome of lawful evil.
"Lawful evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successful evil."
https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/SRD:Lawful_Evil
*kind,* compassionate and courageous, but king works too.
"Yale Law students are king"
That was a Freudian slip, Cal
Seriously, they're in the ruling-class, but I'll have to presume they're mostly benevolent, so most of their alumni won't be evil once they become corporate titans, Senators, or Presidents. Indeed, they keep the interests of the whole community at heart.
But if, as I said, hypothetically, someone not so virtuous got into the Law School, the University's policies may have the unfortunate effect of validating their worse impulses. Which Lord forbid, because Yale alumni have done so much good for the country so far.
"I’m sure the preponderance of Yale Law students are kin[d], compassionate and courageous..."
Nah. Colbert is asked about the support he's gotten from other students in the CNN interview, and it's been minimal and furtive.
"...would you want a lawyer working for you who consistently reacts that way..."
I think many people do. My take is that the more successful attorneys do not, but a lot of clients are looking for exactly that. And they get exactly what they pay for - as the saying goes "like a pizza cutter - all edge and no point".
I recently learned that the Massachusetts Appeals Court has banned the word "grandfathered", in its traditional land use regulation context, as etymologically unsound.
Aren't these the same people who took a squat on 60's feminists who point out wearing a burka is sexual opporession of women out of some ancient religious concepts that women should not tempt men, and to honor the culture and choices to adhere mdjffhhn fb sjimf jikw
"You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Here I thought that was some asininity by a pretentious Hollywood writer.
"wearing a burka is sexual opporession (sic) of women out of " acknowledgement that the men in that society are pigs and perverts
I recently dropped a subscription to Analog science fiction magazine, partly because of this. One story used they/them for one particular character, and so poorly that it was sometimes not clear if it was referencing the singular character or several characters, and I got tired of having to back track once it became clear later that I had chosen the wrong meaning. The straw that broke the camel's back, however, was a second story which used so many custom special pronouns that I could not keep track of which characters were being referred to.
I have enough trouble attaching names to faces I seldom interact with; I refuse to waste brain cells on whatever special pronouns people are using today.
I hear you. I've read recent stuff that uses words like 'gay' and 'queer' to refer to buggery instead of happy and odd! I canceled my subscriptions posthaste after penning a diatribe that left nothing wanting!
Good god. Stories with alien* species with 3 or 11 physologic** genders must be a complete mess.
* Deprecated use in reference to sciencs fiction aliens.
** Qualifier added because I am not sure of the word for reproductive genders at the moment along the euphemism treadmill time axis.
** Also, misspelled
It wasn't the usage itself, it was the lack of clarity about who was being referenced. Either the editors weren't allowed to clean up such woke language, or they thought it was just grand. I wondered for a while if the second one was simply humor / satire, but eventually decided it didn't matter; I simply couldn't keep track of who was whom, and if that was any indication of later stories or future issues, I wasn't going to waste my time with it.
I've been reading stories with weird genders in SciFi for decades. If you have a subscription to Analog, it seems pretty surprising to me that this is a new hard thing for you.
Like I said, it wasn't the usage, it was the lack of clarity. When two stories in one issue are so woke that I can't tell what's going on, it's not my fault, it's theirs. Sloppy editing, editors afraid to tell woke authors to keep it clear, or woke parody which goes so far as to become gibberish; doesn't matter.
The point I quoted concerned clarity. I suppose it's karma that my comment itself was not clear on this.
I'm afraid that my published has the same restriction on use of gendered pronouns as parts of instructions to authors for all 3000 of its journals.
Fortunately the authors don't read those instructions. Nor do they read the instruction to submit in single column format with line numbers.
When people state conclusions without explanation I begin to suspect that they understand that setting forth the underlying logic might go badly for them.
Suppose someone had to spell out a thought process along the lines of:
1) you use the term "trap house" which sometimes means a house people go to to buy illegal drugs, especially crack, so I infer that's what you meant;
2) I believe that people in the Federalist Society must believe that the people who go to trap houses are mostly black, so I infer your reference was to places black crack users frequent;
3) therefore, your description of your own party in those terms must mean that you have something against black people, so I conclude that your invitation was racist and pejorative toward black people.
Spelling this out is a little too revealing, no?
This is silly.
There have been controversies where white college student groups have had parties with bigoted stereotypes.
Tropes like 'trap house' and 'fried chicken' have a history of involving bigoted stereotyping.
Institutions like Yale are trying to appear as free from bigotry as possible, it's a state goal of the institution.
So, they get complaints about this invitation and they look into it (albeit in a slightly heavy handed way). It's just not that remarkable, though. If you had organized an office party like this at most big businesses you shouldn't be surprised if HR didn't contact you with questions. This isn't about Sherlockian deductive logic, it's about avoiding perceptions that are likely to lead to offense.
It became remarkable once they threatened to report him to the bar for bad character on account of associating with the Federalist Society.
(1) The phrase "fried chicken" was not in fact used.
(2) When has "trap house" ever had a history of bigoted stereotyping? Sure, I've encountered pejorative comments about blacks that involved fried chicken,¹ but I've never heard the phrase "trap house" used in such a fashion.
¹Although it's hard to see what's actually bigoted about it. It's one of those things where everyone "knows" that it's bigoted to mention fried chicken in relation to black people, and therefore saying it is bigoted. But there's nothing actually negative about this stereotype, any more than noting that Jews like bagels would be bigoted.
The diversity dumbass came asserted that mentioning fried chicken was racist b/c it denied that societal racism was responsible for black obesity.
I kid you not.
So the failure to spell things out is not necessarily b/c they are hiding their logic but b/c there's no actual logic behind their blovations, only brainless role-playing.
Funny, the first person I think of when crack cocaine is mentioned is Hunter Biden - who is not black
Hard to believe conservatives have none of the best comedians or comedy . . .
We're getting there, though, with the Leftists destroying anything and everything even remotely resembling humor.
Thoughtful post, but remember that the folks at Yale are dominated by a quasi-religious ideology that claims that white people are always racist and have a moral duty to examine how their discourse is racist (which it always is).
Now the student in question is Cherokee, but the Admin is certainly treating him as white-adjacent here.
So EV's analysis is great if your goal is for a bunch of diverse people to engage productively, but if you're looking at it from the angle of "The question is not 'did racism take place'? but rather 'how did racism manifest in that situation?'", You're going to get a lot of this.
"the folks at Yale are dominated by a quasi-religious ideology that claims that white people are always racist and have a moral duty to examine how their discourse is racist (which it always is). "
Good lord.
'The question is not ‘did racism take place’? But rather ‘how did racism manifest in that situation?'"
I didn't make that up, dude.
Can you possibly think of another explanation for this other than that the administration is in the thrall of a 'quasi-religion?' I mean, maybe they are scandal averse? And maybe, knowing how (reasonably understood on first blush) similar college parties have caused bad press for their institutions, they might react to nip it in the bud? I mean, the kind of thing most every institutions everywhere at all time does?
Nah. This is the appearance of a new, startling, 'quasi-religion.'
"Similar college parties"? Like that black race hustleress, you think this was a bunch of Federsalists in blackface?
And, no, the diversity loons sent out a mass email accusing Colbert of using racist language. Clearly they had no concept of what it might require to be "scandal averse" outside the Yale Looney Tunes silo.
Usually people who are "scandal-adverse" will quietly take the student aside, explain there were complaints about the email, and ask that it be re-worded, and then generically send an email to the student body that there have been problems with emails that can be seen by others as racist, and here's some terms to avoid, and why, and only some of the terms will be ones found in the email.
If the Yale Administration wanted to avoid scandal, they didn't do a very good job of it!
Oh, and I should add: the observation that this is a "quasi-religion" isn't particularly new, or startling. This observation has been made for years, and have sometimes even provided detailed reasons why this is a "quasi-religion".
"quasi-religious ideology"
I have noticed that supporters of DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) seem to lack some awareness about its meaning. I doubt that much can be made of that but it is kind of funny.
This is a funny collection of comments. Professor Volokh writes a pretty fair and well-reasoned piece. Half the comments are folks from the left arguing that either he's ignoring some other problem and/or that this isn't actually a big deal. The other half is people from the right arguing that rather than an overreaction and missed opportunity for a teachable moment its really the evil authoritarians solidifying their power over the country.
It really does seem like there's no ability to meet in the middle on any topic anymore.
I dunno jb, it seems to me that one side saying 'this is wrong but not that big of a deal' and the other saying 'this is Stalin's Russia' shows that one side is a bit further from any middle ground.
How do you think Staling's Russia became Stalin's Russia? Do you think maybe intolerance / suppression of dissent and intentionally instilling fear had something to do with that? Do you see any parallels here?
The goal wasn't to meet in the middle or come to some sort of consensus.
The goal was to get 100+ comments - SUCCESS!
What's the middle? Please elaborate on what could possibly be the middle here.
The only possible middle is where all the people involved have goodwill and tolerance. But the story is about intolerant people complaining about words and making demands, and about Yale taking their side and issuing veiled threats. That's the precise opposite of goodwill and tolerance. Hence, no apparent middle.
I thought Professor Volokh's original post was a pretty fair take that I'd call roughly the "middle". It's not dismissive of the concerns of the people who originally complained about the invitation or of the student who sent it out, and rightly expects that the administration should have handled the situation better and rightly calls them out for their failures.
So "the middle" is that complainers are humored and given a hearing and everyone talks and nothing else happens?
No need for most of the "diversity and inclusion" staff then.
Sure, if it turns out the issue is mostly a misunderstanding and people just needing to spend some effort to try to show a bit more empathy to others.
Facilitating high-quality conversations about topics like this seems way harder and more time-consuming than just imposing quotas or whatever you imagine these folks might be doing today.
Who gets to decide if the issue is just a misunderstanding? What if they choose to decide it’s not?
It's a law school. Draw conclusions.
It’s a university. So the obvious conclusion is that they’ll decide based on racial and political favoritism and then color the facts to match whatever punishment they wish to inflict upon the individuals of the less preferred characteristics.
People with boring takes don't bother posting.
You are proof that is not true.
Hear, hear!
Volokh's piece was cuckish, not "pretty fair and well-reasoned". Colbert is right, Yale is wrong, and what was missing from Volokh was any call for accountability. There's no middle between right and wrong when, as here, it's clear who's in the right and who's in the wrong.
"Few people want a lawyer who constantly bristles at every term that could be interpreted as something bad..."
Totalitarianism means that it doesn't matter what most people want. It only matters what the special people want.
How many threats or consequences do you wish to endure to avoid contact with these particular lawyers? If you don't hire them, you will be accused of discriminating against them. Undoubtedly they're special people who have a special right to be hired by you and retained by you to their satisfaction.
If that special right isn't enforced legally, it will be enforced through threats. Do you like being allowed to use the banking system? Do you like being allowed to post on the internet? Do you like being allowed to travel on commercial airlines? Do you like the opportunity to purchase goods and services? How about if the companies in these industries were to decide they don't want to be associated with you due to your attitude toward these special people?
"Totalitarianism means"
The hysteria never ends.
Your denial never ends.
Maybe you should change your attitude then.
To obedience and reverent subservience toward the special people. Or else.
In my local observation, there appears to be a higher proportion of black patrons at Church's than at Popeye's.
That might be biased by the location of the franchises.
I think the people offended by the party invitation are unlikely to have fun at the event and should not attend.
Of course the resident bigots - the reverend and the queen - would have no issue with people in power threatening an indigenous kid with career ruin over an email with nothing racist in it. The little bastard has unacceptable political beliefs.
You have to love bevis, posing as the completely neutral man, 1. saying I have 'no issue' with this (I criticized it multiple times here); 2. lamenting 'bigots' but feeling the nee to mention the 'victim' is 'an indigenous kid' (why does that matter, my oh so race blind friend?) 3. claims 'threatening...with career ruin' with no argument.'
This guy, he's so totally middle of the road! Lol.
One of us, bevis, is a bigot who will be replaced by his betters as society continues to improve against his wishes.
I am content with my position.
Good luck with yours.
You: "I am content with my position with my head buried deep in my butt."
FIFY.
Indeed you are content with your position. You have embraced the Democratic Party, the most racist institution in America to date!
“‘Work will set you free,’ for instance, might seem like a perfectly good slogan to many. (Consider freedom from economic dependency on parents or spouses or the government.) But it might not work well for listeners who know it was also the sign written in German at the entrance to Auschwitz. At least it will yield an unpleasant association for them—never a good effect for a slogan supposed to inspire people. And it might make them question the motives of the speaker, even if they ultimately answer the question with ‘he probably just didn't know the connection’”.
This actually happened to me in law school. I was living in a coop and went over next door. As a reminder to clean the dishes someone had written that over the sink. I asked the kid there who wrote it. He said it was he.
I don’t think the Holocaust connection was in the sunny mind of that 19-year-old California Protestant. Jesus said, “The truth will set you free”, which is probably what resonated in his mind when he wrote the sign.
The Washington Free Beacon has the audio file of the interview between the accused student, Dean Cosgrove, and diversity director Yaseen Eldik. They supply a list of what they see as the highlights, along with the time of the recording where each can be found.
I was interested in the part at 5:32: Eldik says that the student's affiliation with the Federalist Society was "very triggering" for students who "already feel" that the conservative group is "oppressive to certain communities." How is anybody’s attitude toward membership in FedSoc relevant? It sounds like it is being mentioned as an aggravating factor.
Because we live in the age where Middle School Mean Girl values are ascendant. Never, ever risk being seen associating with the wrong kind of people.
Were I young again and in college and saw a party invite that noted the Federalist Society, I would think to myself: this is meant to send the message that this is for conservatives and not people like me.
Offended? No. Successfully warned away? Definitely.
I haven't read all the details, but there's a technical question that's been bugging me: how did he send this email to students outside of the intended audience? Schools generally lock down how many recipients can be on an email sent through the school's servers. You need permission from someone in student affairs to send to wide audiences. Even if the message was offensive to the general population, if sent to the conservative students who wouldn't be offended by intentional or accidental racist tropes, there would be no complaints. So either he had some sort of higher level access to send out the invite or he misread his audience.
Seriously, if a kid can get into Yale but cannot effectively dog-whistle past diversity directors, they don't belong there.
The Federalist society, while it certainly has a perspective, is not closed to liberals. It regularly holds cross-ideological debates.
It's somewhat telling that liberals would think any organization that didn't restrict membership to liberals was "not for people like me"; You've started thinking that ideological diversity is bad.
"if sent to the conservative students who wouldn’t be offended by intentional or accidental racist tropes"
I'm sticking by the definition of racism in the pre-woke Merriam-Webster's dictionary: "racial prejudice or discrimination."
Racial preferences are racial discrimination, so anyone who supports them is a racist.
Not a "reverse racist," or whatever, but a racist.
Dog-whistles for racists include "affirmative action" and "equity."
Maybe you should, instead of going off on a weird tangent that is inherently silly and explained away by said details?
What he's actually doing is kicking the diverity clowns' butts, which may well be a better omen for his career than pursuing the furtiveness you think is de rigeur for admission to Yale.
To answer your question, he sent out two blasts. The much quoted one was to the Native American Law Students group, and a different version went to the Federalist email list. He's a member of both and it was held in his dorm or rooms, so that's why it was sent to both lists, not to signal that libs weren't welcome. The former list was inherently likely to contain Grievance Studies types, but he didn't anticipate that it would be triggering. But someone on the Chief Wahoo list was triggered to forward it to a claque of the like-minded.