The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Government Employer Likely May Require COVID Vaccination, Even of Employees Who Have Already Had COVID
From Norris v. Stanley, decided Friday by Judge Paul Maloney (W.D. Mich.):
[T]here is no fundamental right to decline a vaccination…. Plaintiff attempted to distinguish her case from Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905) but was unsuccessful. She argues that her case is different because Jacobson never considered natural immunity, and because the policy in Jacobson was subject to bicameralism and presentment to the Massachusetts legislature, while the MSU policy was not.
First, the asserted factual differences between Jacobson and Plaintiff's case are not relevant. Over the last year and a half, courts have looked to Jacobson to infer that a rational basis standard applies to generally applicable vaccine mandates; the facts of the case are obviously not going to be identical to every COVID vaccine case that has been or is currently being litigated. See, e.g., Klaassen v. Trs. of Ind. Univ. (7th Cir. 2021) ("Plaintiffs assert that the rational-basis standard used in Jacobson does not offer enough protection for their interests and that courts should not be as deferential to the decisions of public bodies as Jacobson was, but a court of appeals must apply the law established by the Supreme Court."); Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo (2020) (Gorsuch, J., concurring) (stating that Jacobson essentially applied a rational basis standard); Harris v. Univ. of Mass., Lowell (D. Mass. Aug. 27, 2021) (applying rational basis to the university's "generally applicable public health measure[]"). This Court must apply the law from the Supreme Court: Jacobson essentially applied rational basis review and found that the vaccine mandate was rational in "protect[ing] the public health and public safety." The Court cannot ignore this binding precedent.
Given that rational basis applies to this case, the burden is on Plaintiff to show that the MSU vaccine mandate is not rationally related to a legitimate government interest. Plaintiff provided evidence in the form of testimony and declarations from an expert witness who stated that naturally acquired immunity is just as effective as vaccine immunity . She thus argued that it was irrational for MSU to not carve out an exemption in its vaccine mandate for individuals like herself who have naturally acquired immunity from a previous COVID infection.
On the other hand, Defendants presented competing evidence from their own expert witness that refuted the effectiveness of naturally acquired immunity. The Court heard the battle of the experts, and they essentially presented that there is ongoing scientific debate about the effectiveness of naturally acquired immunity versus vaccine immunity. In creating its vaccine policy, Defendants relied on guidance from the CDC, FDA, MDHHS, and other federal and state agencies that have extensively studied the COVID-19 vaccine.
Put plainly, even if there is vigorous ongoing discussion about the effectiveness of natural immunity, it is rational for MSU to rely on present federal and state guidance in creating its vaccine mandate. {See, e.g., New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection Than Previous COVID-19 Infection, CDC (Aug. 6, 2021, 1:00 PM). The Court also notes the letter from U.S. Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas, himself an M.D., and co-signed by fellow Doctors Caucus members of the House and Senate, urging the CDC to recognize COVID-19 natural immunity in future guidance policies. The letter references studies identifying the efficacy of natural immunity.} Thus, Plaintiff has failed to show that the MSU vaccine mandate does not meet rational basis. She is unlikely to succeed on the merits of her claim.
{Plaintiff makes two alternative arguments for why she is likely to succeed on the merits. First, she argues that MSU did not have the power to implement its vaccine mandate in the first place because it is exercising police power in doing so, and the Michigan legislature has never delegated such power to MSU. This argument is completely without merit because the Michigan Constitution gives MSU's "governing board[] authority over 'the absolute management of the University.'" Mich. Const. art. 8 § 5. MSU certainly has the power to implement its vaccine policy because the Board of Trustees has the broad power to govern the university.
Second, Plaintiff argues that the MSU vaccine policy is preempted under the federal Emergency Use Authorization ("EUA") statute. See 21 U.S.C. § 360bbb-3. She argues that the vaccine mandate "actually conflicts" with the EUA, and it is thus preempted. The basis of Plaintiff's argument is that the EUA requires medical providers to obtain informed consent from individuals receiving an EUA vaccination and to provide those individuals the option to accept or refuse administration of that vaccine. MSU's policy does not preclude Plaintiff from receiving informed consent, nor does it prevent her from accepting or refusing administration of the vaccine. Rather, the vaccine is a condition of employment, which Plaintiff does not have a constitutionally protected interest in. There is no preemption issue here.}
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"On the other hand, Defendants presented competing evidence from their own expert witness that refuted the effectiveness of naturally acquired immunity. The Court heard the battle of the experts, and they essentially presented that there is ongoing scientific debate about the effectiveness of naturally acquired immunity versus vaccine immunity."
At this point there only scientific debate are among those that have not stayed current on the science.
Or don't care about the science, of course. It's not that the CDC is unaware of the evidence. They're just responding to things that they view as more important than the evidence.
Brett Bellmore
October.11.2021 at 10:23 am
very well stated
Brett,
You are very charitable toward CDC with that statement. It is hard to ignore what 45 million American have acquired vis their developing COVID-19. It is hard to ignore what the UK and the governments of the EU has recognized.
It is willful dismissal of what CDC managers consider politically inconvenient
Political inconvenience is what I meant by "more important than the evidence".
Try 100+million, notoriously undercounted.
"At this point there only scientific debate are among those that have not stayed current on the science."
This isn't something that I spend a ton of time researching, but the question seems far from settled. The high quality papers I've seen seem to suggest that the following set of statements is most likely true:
- For the original strains of Covid, the vaccines were superior to natural immunity by a reasonable margin
- For Delta, natural immunity provides better protection by a reasonable margin
- Even for those with natural immunity, vaccination considerably enhances protection against contracting Covid
There certainly doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus that natural immunity is universally superior and that vaccines are not indicated for those that previously contracted Covid. I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that we should think of a previous Covid infection to count as one shot in a two shot series, but it seems far from settled that we should just exempt everyone who got Covid from any vaccine requirements.
>There certainly doesn’t seem to be any sort of consensus that natural immunity is universally superior and that vaccines are not indicated for those that previously contracted Covid. <
Actually there is a tremendous body of evidence-
During Sept 2021
In Minnesota approx 25-30% of infections are vaxed individuals.
Vermont approx 12-15% of infections are vaxed individuals.
Israeli study for july - sept showed approx 40% of infections were vaxed individuals At the same time the number of reinfections among previously covid infected individuals is near zero, certainly less than 0.05%
"At the same time the number of reinfections among previously covid infected individuals is near zero, certainly less than 0.05%"
That is wildly incorrect--it's just not regularly broken out like breakthrough infections (because, as Nuke the cane points out below, there's generally not systematic tracking of who previously had Covid in the same way there is for vaccines). But here's an article that actually includes some data on re-infections:
https://www.fox10tv.com/news/coronavirus/natural-immunity-vs-vaccine-induced-immunity/article_554a0694-1b4e-11ec-9fe2-2bbc324c063c.html
We don't know the fraction of the population that had Covid before versus got vaccinated so it's hard to draw exact comparison, but you'll see that the number of re-infections is the same order of magnitude as the breakthrough infections. It is definitely not "near zero" or three orders of magnitude lower, as you suggest.
JB - note
Israeli study -Results SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021.
13x higher risk for vacinated vs prior covid infection
Alabama has had 8500 re-infections . That is 1% of total infections, for the period march 2020 through Sept 2021 with no increase. most regions of the country, the percentage of infections among the vaxed are running 12% -30% of total infections. Those are sept 2021 rates and they are rising.
I know the Israel study. It's a huge outlier that doesn't match any other study on the topic. It's also the largest, so there's reason to pay attention to it, but you can't just look at that one study because it confirms what you want it to say and ignore all of the rest of them.
"Alabama has had 8500 re-infections . That is 1% of total infections, for the period march 2020 through Sept 2021 with no increase. most regions of the country, the percentage of infections among the vaxed are running 12% -30% of total infections"
This makes no sense. You're comparing wildly different types of numbers. If you normalize the numbers as I did below you'll see that the risk of getting infected looks pretty similar for both populations.
The Israeli study anti-vaxxers like Tom rely on has some major issues:
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/scicheck-instagram-post-missing-context-about-israeli-study-on-covid-19-natural-immunity/
Eh, that page honestly doesn't do much to undermine the Israeli study. If we think the Israeli study is too small, every other study I've seen on this topic has considerably smaller populations.
I do agree that it's notable that the Israeli study does conclude that vaccination is beneficial for previously infected people, and that it DEFINITELY doesn't suggest that it's better overall to get infected rather than to get vaccinated, but the study itself seems to be fine and worth paying attention to. It's directionally consistent with other studies that find that Pfizer is not as robust against Delta as are some of the other vaccines, and that protection starts to fade fairly quickly.
JB - My oversight on adjusting for normalization
My original comparison was 20%-30% for vaxed breakthroughs, vs 1% for reinfection. (20x to 30x)
My recomputation based on normaization is closer 4x-5x - though the normalization is complicated by the sharp drop off in effectiveness post 5-6 months. Based on very limited posted data, the 1% / 2% reinfection rate is holding fairly constant. While the break through infections rate started accelerating in august.
I'm not sure how you're getting to 4-5x. Can you maybe show your work? (I agree the normalization is complicated--we'd want to see a time series for re-infections and for breakthrough infections, and we're hamstrung by the lack of generally available data on re-infections.)
I think it's important to note that the sharp dropoff in vaccine effectiveness may only be applicable to Pfizer (which is the only vaccine used in Israel). Studies that look at different types of vaccines are generally showing Moderna to have better ongoing protection than Delta and J&J dropping off less sharply, which is one of the many reasons you shouldn't over-index on the results of the Israel study.
Also worth noting that the Israel study showed a dropoff in natural immunity over time as well, so it seems likely that boosters are going to be a good idea for folks with previous infections even if it turns out the initial infection provides protection as good or better than the vaccine.
Actually, I decided to do the math.
As of the time of that piece, Alabama had fully vaccinated about 2M people and about 2.5M people with at least one dose, compared with 25,645 breakthrough infections. Depending on how they're counting their definition of "have been vaccinated", that gives you a breakthrough rate of between 1% to 1.3% of the vaccinated population.
Also at the time of the piece, Alabama had ~800K previous Covid cases and 8595 re-infections, so a re-infection rate of 1.1%.
So, very close to equivalent rates of breakthrough vs. reinfection.
With respect to doing the math, one can plot the reported new cases per million (Y) versus the percent of population fully vaccinated (X).
In both the UK and the US, reported new cases increased by a factor of 5 as the % full vaccinated increased beyond 40%.
Don' t cherry point studies do the math yourself. You'll find all the relevant data in numerical form in Oxford's Our World in Data.
Don Nico, that doesn't help us with the number of re-infections, though. I haven't seen any systemic reporting of re-infections which is why people like Tom just assume that they're "basically zero" when, as the Alabama data shows, they're similarly common to breakthrough infections.
It would be great if re-infections were reported more consistently.
jb
October.12.2021 at 11:57 am
Flag Comment Mute User
JB - in hindsight to my prior comments, you make a good point. Kevin Roche at healthly skeptic makes a similar point with the reporting agencies report data the agrees with the vision they wish to project . K Roche deals extensively with MN data.
jb,
You're correct, but I cannot find any reporting of reinfections nor of breakthroughs on a worldwide basis.
However, the statistical data does show that after a point ~40% increasing the percentage of fully vaccinated improves neither the case fatality rate nor the number of new infections per day.
Hence, the propaganda that vaccines will now end the pandemic is just hollow rhetoric
jb,
I should add that looking at multiple countries on a nationwide basis avoids the inevitable US political considerations that we see all too often in these comments.
I had started looking at these systematics—independent of this blog—as part of an extensive research into SARS-CoV-2 epidemiology to try to tease apart the several factors that can influence case fatality rates.
You think infections are reported consistently? Lolol. Know a guy here who died from a ruptured appendix and they put Flu Manchu on the death certificate. I know the decedent's wife. There is a huge flood under that bridge until someone goes back and figures the actual numbers in 5 years.
Just to note.... There is no rational basis for forcing a person who has recovered from covid to receive a vaccine.
There is very clear and unambiguous scientific data on the issue, plus, prior plausibility was entirely on that side to begin with.
So repeatedly referring to having a rational basis for a decision in this case is an appalling distortion of the English language.
Sadly, however, there is a rational basis for an employer to rely on the pronouncements of government agencies - even it is clear to anyone who knows how to read the raw data that those pronouncements are based on ... Well, let's just be polite and say 'many things other than the actual evidence'.
Even though the CDC has done their level best to destroy their own credibility, it would be a far-reaching mistake to hold employers legally liable when the employer relies on them.
I think, however, we can distinguish between holding an employer liable for complying with a government regulation, (Even if that regulation is irrational.) and holding an employer liable for voluntarily acting on a government pronouncement that lacks any force, and which is irrational.
You might reasonably make mistakes the government forces you to make, you don't have to join the government in mistakes where you're permitted a choice. There's nothing at this point preventing private employers from treating prior Covid infection as equivalent to vaccination, even if the government irrationally refuses to.
I'm not so sure. Let's try a less-charged example.
You need to remodel your local high school. As part of the remodel, you know you need to update the hallway sizes and exits based on the recent student body size and internal traffic patterns. Not being an expert, you call your local Fire Marshal, give her all your data. You then remodel in accordance with her recommendations. Nevertheless, bad stuff happens and students get hurt.
In this hypothetical, the Fire Marshal is clearly at fault for giving incompetent advice. As a legal matter, however, was it reasonable for the school to rely on the advice of the supposed government expert? If not, what duty of care is owed by non-experts to double-check the work of the government bureaucrats who are supposed to do this for a living?
Your hypothetical is missing an important element of the present circumstance, which is that you actually have on hand the evidence that the Fire Marshal's recommendations are irrational.
You don't, though. You might have some conflicting evidence about the Fire Marshal's recommendations but as a non-expert, how are you to decide when experts disagree?
Let's expand the hypothetical above. John stands up in a public meeting about the remodel and says "I'm an architect and the Fire Marshal is full of it." For all you know, John is a random parent. What duty of care do you have to evaluate the competence of the government agencies?
Personally, I'm right with you that we should "assume the worst because history shows that government entities regularly live down to our worst expectations". But is that the right legal standard?
No, you do, actually. This is a pretty clear-cut case, the evidence the CDC is relying on is crap.
They didn't compare people who'd had Covid to people who'd been vaccinated, to see if having had Covid was comparable to the vaccination in effectiveness. Oh, no, that would be too clear cut a test of the relative effects.
They took people who'd been infected half a year earlier, and looked to see if getting the vaccine, TOO, reduced their chance of reinfection. Which, sure, it did, nobody questions that.
The study was carefully designed to avoid telling you if just having had covid was comparable to just having been vaccinated. Which is what the people disputing the CDC's recommendations are insisting.
Seriously, looking at this, I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that the CDC is actively avoiding looking at any head to head comparison between infection created immunity and vaccine created immunity.
But I suppose I take your point: How much proof do you have to have that the Fire Marshal is full of it, before you ignore his advice? How much proof do you need that he's full of it, before you can be liable for following his advice?
But the root cause of that problem is a Fire Marshal who's full of it.
There absolutely is. Even if naturally acquired immunity is just as good as vaccination — and despite your claims there must certainly is not "very clear and unambiguous scientific data on the issue" — that does not mean that a vaccine can't act as a booster shot for someone previously infected.
And in fact every study that has looked at this shows that vaccination improves protection in people that were previously infected.
Sure, but that kind of misses the point. Vaccination undoubtedly improves protection in people who were previously vaccinated, too.
But the CDC isn't insisting that people who've been vaccinated, but not had a booster shot, be treated as unvaccinated.
The question here, the relevant question, is how just having had Covid stacks up against just having been vaccinated.
And that's the question the CDC is relentlessly refusing to pay any attention to the data about.
That's actually a different conversation. I was taking issue with your assertion that there's no rational basis for insisting on a previously infected person getting vaccinated.
I tend to agree that it would be reasonable to treat prior infection as a substitute for vaccination in the place where there are mandates, but I don't think that the discussion is as one-sided as you and others are trying to imply.
The whole debate in the US has been polarized in a dumb way. People are not getting vaccinated for tribal reasons, and people are insisting on vaccination as a response for their own tribal reasons (you this in Dilan's responses in this thread, for example). I'm loathe to bring everything back to Trump, but the whole situation is emblematic of what a shitty leader he was/is--rather than using his leadership on vaccines to try to bring the country together around them, once he lost the election he looked for more ways to divide the country rather than just taking credit for something useful he actually did and save some lives in the process.
To be clear, my assertion is that there's no rational basis for insisting that a previously infected person be vaccinated, that is not equally a rational basis for insisting that a previously vaccinated person be vaccinated.
To be sure, a shot of vaccine will increase the previously infected person's resistance. It will also increase the previously vaccinated person's resistance.
And yet, the CDC is only pushing one of these, and not the other.
This indicates to me that what we are looking at is not a reason, but an excuse. Because if that added increment of immunity is worth mandating for the previously infected, why would it not be worth mandating for twice as many previously vaccinated?
Well, the CDC does now push for a booster shot for a fair chunk of the population, and I think it's reasonably likely that before too long we'll see that become guidance for the entire population.
Your issue is really at the nexus of CDC guidance and vaccine mandate implementation. You're right that none of the vaccine mandates that I've seen requires a booster right now even though the CDC now suggests boosters for many groups, including those with significant occupational exposure. And also most (all?) don't credit previous infection as being significant. I agree that this is inconsistent and would probably do something different if I were king, but also think that a lot of this boils down to a desire for simplicity on behalf of mandate implementers combined with the CDC's tendency to be extremely conservative when it comes to Covid-related risk management. The hyperbole around "no rationale basis" and the idea that the science is 100% settled here probably doesn't help make the argument more palatable for folks in a polarized environment.
Several Nordic countries are pausing using Moderna because of heart inflammation in younger men. Your rant re Trump is ridiculous when the lowest vax rates are in AAs and Hispanics, hardly his constituency. Plenty of AA celebs spouting anti vax sentiments. I got the jab because I weighed things and at 65 it seemed like a good idea. I also realize what lying sacks of shit are running the CDC and Fauci's bailiwick so I can see why people don't trust them. I probably wouldn't get it if I was 30 and won't get a booster because I'm healthy and not obese. Brandon is doubling down on attacking his political opponents and using government, Trump stuck to verbal abuse. TDS ain't a very rational look 10 months later.
"Put plainly, even if there is vigorous ongoing discussion about the effectiveness of natural immunity, it is rational for MSU to rely on present federal and state guidance in creating its vaccine mandate."
Yet another reminder that "rational basis" doesn't actually require the policy to be rational.
Just remember that the following policies would pass rational basis scrutiny:
* racial segregation in public education
* assault weapons bans
* flag desecration bans
* hate speech laws
* abortion bans
* same-sex marriage bans
* Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell
I would go farther than this Court. I think even if you guys are right that "natural immunity" is sufficient, there's a rational basis for nonetheless forcing people who are "naturally immune" to take the shot.
Basically, the people who assert "natural immunity" include at least some folks who didn't take the virus seriously for political reasons and did really stupid things that caused them to get the virus and- importantly- ENDANGERED THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS. Anyone who got this virus could have killed someone. This is really important.
Accordingly, forcing this group to take the shot is making it clear that they have an obligation to their fellow citizens, an obligation that they may have previously ignored. The need to enforce that norm during a deadly pandemic itself easily meets the Williamson v. Lee Optical rational basis test- indeed, I think it meets strict scrutiny and should even override religious objections (or at least all but the most sincere, demonstrated by decades of adherence). Everyone should get the shot.
People are spending a lot of money litigating the supposed constitutional right to be a sociopath.
Personally, I was anticipating getting the vaccine just as soon as it became available locally for my cohort, only to contract Covid about a week prior to that happening. Quite frustrating, actually; All that mask wearing, distancing, refraining from unnecessary socializing, all for naught. Probably a work exposure, several people at work got it right about that time, and I had been dealing with them, wearing a company supplied mask.
I might think vaccine mandates are for the birds, that doesn't mean I think people shouldn't voluntarily be vaccinated if they stand to benefit from it. (As those who've already had Covid largely don't.)
Essentially, you're making a case for mandating vaccination for people who don't need it, not as a matter of medical necessity, but as a punishment for behavior you disapprove of. Not even individualized punishment, though. Group punishment, gladly sweeping in the 'innocent'.
Really, it's hard for me to describe how despicable I view that position, while still being civil.
It is time to stop being civil.
What's stopping you?
The fact that you'll lose no matter what you do?
Go ahead, tough guy.
It's not a punishment. It's the government reminding people that they have an obligation to their fellow citizens.
The closest analogue I can think of is a universal draft. Drafting people shouldn't be a punishment. But it is a reminder that in a real crisis, you don't have the right to opt out of the crisis.
There's a whole bunch of Americans who don't even think that their obligation to their fellow citizen matters. I never said you were one of them Brett; but there a lot.
And a LOT of people in that group got COVID, with some of them getting it precisely because they behaved as if they had no obligation to others. They don't need to be punished, but we do need to make clear that this shot is their obligation to society.
And importantly, in a universal draft, you surely end up drafting some people who don't make the best soldiers and sailors. Nonetheless, it can't seriously be argued that a universal draft during a war lacks a rational basis. I.e., we don't even evaluate such things against a determination of military necessity: "the government can require every person to pitch in during an emergency" is enough.
And so should it be here. Not a punishment at all.
"It’s not a punishment. It’s the government reminding people that they have an obligation to their fellow citizens."
Yup, still despicable. Once you've gotten Covid, being vaccinated serves no rational medical purpose, and as they used to say, "If you want to send a message, use Western Union".
Forcing somebody to accept a vaccine they don't need, just to tell them something? If you do that, the only message that you're trying to deliver is: "Submit, peon!".
Brett, this is going to be controversial on a libertarian blog, but in a crisis, there certainly are situations where part of the role of the government is to tell people to submit and act in the common interest.
And to put it in legal terms, there is no constitutional right to insist on being a sociopath and not submitting to a safe vaccine. In other words, you may hate message sending, but in a crisis, we are all in this together and the government has EVERY right to make policy based on that principle.
Look, let's focus like a laser on the context: You're not defending ordering immunologically naive people to get the vaccine; While a libertarian might or might not take exception to that sort of mandate, it would at least have some medical basis, it would at least advance a common interest in retarding propagation of the virus.
You're defending ordering people who are already immune to the virus to get the vaccine. That's what we're discussing.
That being the case, there is no element of "acting in the common interest" present to appeal to. There's no element of "being a sociopath" present, unless perhaps it's your own sociopathy. My getting vaccinated advances no legitimate public end.
The only end it advances is establishing that the government can make unreasonable demands, and expect to be obeyed.
"You’re defending ordering people who are already immune to the virus to get the vaccine. That’s what we’re discussing."
Even if we assume that previous infection is as good or better at protecting against the virus, every study I've seen on the topic shows that vaccination still provides significantly better protection, even for people with previous infection. So we're not discussing a scenario in which there's no benefit to the vaccination and it's all just for show, even though Dilan might be comfortable with that.
"every study I’ve seen on the topic shows that vaccination still provides significantly better protection, even for people with previous infection. "
As it does for people who've been previously vaccinated. But, the CDC isn't insisting people get a booster shot before being treated as vaccinated, now, is it?
Why not?
One step at a time, as Williamson v. Lee Optical said.
Here's why: The previously vaccinated have submitted already. The previously infected have not.
And that's the relevant difference: Whether the President has lost patience with you or not.
False. It boosts immunity.
Also, easier to track.
I know a few people who say they've got Covid - some twice! I mean, it was a cough and a fever. And was pretty bad, and the timeline was right. No, they don't have the test with them, but they're sure.
We have seen multiple comments on this blog from folks who say if asked about their immune status they will lie. It's none of anyone's business but their own, they say. Some deny there is any legitimate public interest in disease suppression, saying it will wreck the biological fitness of the species. Letting people get sick and fall where they may is the preferred policy, and they will lie to support it.
Given the absence of usable public records on who has and has not previously had Covid, and the prevalence of advocacy to lie, the only practical information basis for disease suppression is a verifiable vaccination record. That's the way it is. Complainers should blame the liars.
Amen, and the MFers in DC are in for a whirlwind of sickouts in the transport sector. Stacked up and short handed already because the lying shitbirds scared people half to death, it didn't take much to shut down Southwest. I would not want to depend on flying somewhere over Turkey Day weekend if Joe the clueless (or his handlers more likely) decide to push it. And you know they will. It is absolutely infuriating. The only positive is Joe is dooming Dems to the basement for a decade at least. Not that Team Red is much less a batch of statist assholes. All of the people I know who could give a shit about politics have had it.
Are you pushing the fake argument that pilots are quitting rather than be vaccinated? They're not. Neither is anyone else. "Owning the libs" only goes so far as a motivation; when it affects people's jobs, they get vaccinated.
An actual covid infection provides much stronger and long term immunity than the vaccines.
Your statement shows you are not even remotely current on the scientific developments.
My argument isn't about science. It's about mutual societal obligation during a crisis.
Mutual societal obligation to do something useless?
It's important to note that it isn't, purely useless. Even "natural immunity" isn't full immunity, and "natural immunity" + vaccine is even better, in the same way using 2 methods of birth control is more effective than using one.
But yes, mutual societal obligation in a crisis is absolutely all the reason government needs to make every person within its jurisdiction take that shot.
Screw you and the horse you rode in on. That's all I can say. I think we've reached the point where it's time to draw a line in the sand, and mean it, or forget about our children being meaningfully free.
I'm glad you mentioned children. 2 year olds are afraid of needles and shots. Adults who are afraid of them are cowards- and stupid cowards too.
And it's totally possible to be (1) meaningfully free and (2) required to get our shots. Indeed, America has been both for decades, as there have been longstanding vaccine requirements dating back as far as Jacobson.
"And it’s totally possible to be (1) meaningfully free and (2) required to get our shots. "
War is Peace, and Slavery is Freedom, too.
The word "requirements" is doing a LOT of work here. Childhood vaccines before starting school (1) are not "required" in that there are generally a number of exemptions available; and (2) are a series of one-and-done vaccinations (one shot or a short series). Boosters (e.g., tetanus and shingles) are strongly recommended but not required.
Beyond that, there is no precedent whatsoever for requiring periodic, ongoing vaccinations at all, much less with the lack of exceptions that irrational/authoritarian people such as yourself are lobbying for. And don't even pretend you don't want to include periodic boosters in your little regime.
This is all wrong.
(1) This does vary by state, but many states have been cracking down on exceptions in recent years because people have been abusing them. California, for example, basically only has medical exemptions and even before the Covid debates began was cracking down on those.
(2) Just so wrong. See https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html
Basically all of the immunizations require multiple doses. Tetanaus boosters may not be required after the initial series, but the initial series is 5 doses over 4-6 years!
Jacobson paid a $5 fine and remained unvaccinated.
...let's recall that the CDC-approved jab isn't even available, as I understand it. The only jabs you can get are still the EUA ones. That means: No liability for anything that happens to you.
This happened to Jacobson's son, too. He decided to get vaccinated in order to keep his job, but made the doctor who did it sign a declaration that he would take responsibility for adverse results. The result was disabling, but the doctor backed out. You can read about this in Blackman's article. I'm not sure why the doctor's promise was unenforceable -- I don't believe there were EUA's then. But there are now.
Even though the "crisis" is bogus. Under the equally bogus "rational basis" standard (NOT applicable in 1905, btw) I'm not seeing any lower limit to what the Feds can declare a crisis, or, if there is one, the government can blow up any blip to exceed any lower limit that SCOTUS will recognize.
"…let’s recall that the CDC-approved jab isn’t even available, as I understand it. The only jabs you can get are still the EUA ones. That means: No liability for anything that happens to you."
Pfizer has been fully approved since August.
I wouldn't rely on Blackman to accurately report a traffic dispute, but you are not correctly describing what Blackman's article said. Here's the relevant text, after first describing an adverse reaction that Henning Jacobson allegedly had to a vaccine administered in infancy in Sweden:
Jacobson’s eighteen-year-old son had a similar reaction to the smallpox vaccine. Apparently, the son’s firm ordered him to be vaccinated. The father urged his son to quit, rather than get the vaccine. The son chose to stay in his employment, and get the shot. As a result, “for six months he carried his arm in a sling.” Jacobson also had a six- year-old daughter. He told Doctor Abbott of the state board of health about the injuries that he and his son suffered. Jacobson “wanted a signed statement from Dr. Abbott that he (Abbott) would be responsible for any injury resulting from the vaccination of his child.” Unsurprisingly, Abbott declined that request, but “granted a permit of exemption” for the daughter.
I'd like to see you try and make me, asshole.
What are you going to do if he does? Puff up your chest anonymously on social media?
If the people claiming acquired immunity can prove they have had COVID, that should count the same as proof of vaccination.
Dilan,
You have no basis aside from ill-will that gets you to claim that people became ill out of stupidity or malevolence.
The are multiple legitimate medical reasons that at least caution against if not preclude COVID vaccination. There are also stupid reasons that people cite.
Don't be so hasty to lump people into one category and be judgemental.
You have no basis aside from ill-will that gets you to claim that people became ill out of stupidity or malevolence.
Really? You must not have been watching the news this past year.
The are multiple legitimate medical reasons that at least caution against if not preclude COVID vaccination.
There really aren't. Every single one I have heard has been made up- or to put it another way, people started with the conclusion that they didn't want the shots and then reasoned backwards from there.
I've already explained to you that I came down with Covid about a week before it became available locally for my cohort. I'm hardly alone, the vaccine only became available in December of last year, when the epidemic had been going on for about a year. At the earliest date anyone outside a trial could be vaccinated, tens of millions of Americans had already had it.
You still should have gotten the shot. I'm not calling you a sociopath- as I said, the sociopaths are the people who went out and did group activities to make a political statement and then got the virus (and could have endangered others). But you are trying to avoid the shot, which is dumb. There's no medical concern here with getting vaccinated; it's harmless and you are reasoning backwards from your desire not to do it.
I didn't get the shot on doctor's advice. I was told to wait some months before getting it, to minimize the chances of an adverse reaction, and to save limited supplies for people who hadn't already had the virus.
But after studying the matter, as more information came out, I concluded that the cost/benefit to getting vaccinated just wasn't there anymore, now that I had natural immunity. I figured I'd wait until they had an updated vaccine that would cover new variants.
Little did I realize that they'd jettison the warp core on January 20th, and the updated vaccine would be trapped in FDA limbo while they kept just doubling down on a now obsolete vaccine.
Somehow I'm guessing you're not referring to the George Floyd rallies that were endorsed by various pols and also doctor-signed declarations (hundreds of doctors) that that they go ahead was more important than controlling spread (at a time when no one was vaxxed).
This fucking moron isn't very original, is he? From one ex gandy to another.....(steel gang and Granville, ND section circa '75).
Yes, really. Dian.
My 99-yo mom got COVID last Christmas neither due to stupidity nor malevolence. She did get vaccinated a few months afterward.
I avoid watching the US news because it is so hopelessly biased as is your claim. I prefer NHK news that is free from partisan US politics and assumes that Japanese citizens are basically intelligent and responsible.
As for your claim about legitimate medical reasons, you are simple wrong. Don't listen to the idiot anti-vaxers. Investigate the actual medicine.
They may not be a apply to several million persons but they do likely apply to at least 1 million persons. This is all ignoring that recovering from a moderate COVID infections makes the vaccine at best redundant.
"constitutional right to be a sociopath". Well...
I think the vaccines are efficacious and got mine as soon as available. I did this to protect myself. If others choose to remain unvaccinated, whether through a different analysis of the risk, or because as naturally immune it is unnecessary, this decision does not impact me, because I have been vaccinated.
You are conflating the vaccinated/unvaccinated status with transmissibility. But we now know that the vaccinated can still get COVID (commonly, but almost always with less virulence, thankfullly) and we now know that the vaccinated can also transmit COVID (Provincetown). Whether there is a material difference in transmissibility has yet to be determined, but even if the unvaccinated (whether naturally immune or not) turn out to have greater levels of transmissibility, it is crystal clear that the vaccinated also have the capacity to spread the virus, and are therefore, by your definition, sociopaths for going out in society and spreading the disease, to the detriment of us all.
I think you're applying the standard at the wrong level. A policy of allowing employers to rely on federal and state guidance is a good policy even when the guidance is probably wrong.
The fight to fix the guidance should be taken up at that level. There is little benefit to getting employers caught in the middle.
What's going on, at least in part, is that some of us are treating that 'bodily autonomy' handwaving from abortion and contraceptive cases as though it were actually meant to be taken seriously.
Funny that it probably doesn't actually make you rethink your position on those other topics, though.
Right. "I can use this bodily autonomy argument to own the libs" is not the same thing as "bodily autonomy is an important principle protected by the Constitution, and Jacobson should therefore be overruled".
Is there supposed to be something wrong with pointing out that the Progs are hypocrites?
Funny that your depreciation of bodily integrity when it interferes with Jabbing people dousn't cause you to recognize that it was already bogus when applied to abortion and contraceptiion.
Yeah, funny that.
I think I'm missing the part where you see me depreciating bodily integrity? In both cases it's a balance without black or white answers. Birth control doesn't harm anyone else so should basically be allowed in all cases; abortion becomes increasingly problematic as the fetus/baby becomes viable; mandatory vaccination becomes increasingly important with more harmful diseases and as they're spreading through the population more.
This sounds about right.
Just remember that the following policies would pass rational basis scrutiny:
* racial segregation in public education
* assault weapons bans
* flag desecration bans
* hate speech laws
* abortion bans
* same-sex marriage bans
* Don't Ask, Don't Tell
Also note that the plaintiff is not being excluded "from an almost limitless number of transactions and endeavors that constitute ordinary civic life in a free society" Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620, 631 (1996)
" On the other hand, Defendants presented competing evidence from their own expert witness that refuted the effectiveness of naturally acquired immunity. "
refute =/= rebut
The demise of copy editors is not part of American improvement.
The judge may have badly expressed "that claimed to refute plaintiff's claims of", but he may instead have been convinced most of all by his own priors and meant exactly what he wrote.
So a vaccine that allows "breakthrough" infections (and oh by the way, most of them are emergency use only) is perfectly fine, but real actual immunity provided by mother nature is irrelevant?
Got it.
Damn right I believe in "The Science".
I actually do love big brother.
It's amazing watching progs twist themselves into pretzels in order to lick big brother's nutsack.
It is simpler and easier to establish who has had the vaccine than it is to establish who has acquired natural immunity. This in and of itself provides rational basis.
You get a little print out stating you have been vaccinated
you also get a little print out stating you tested positive.
If true, this seems to me the best argument for not exempting those claiming natural immunity. If the claimant cannot reliably show when he/she was infected, requiring vaccination is rational from the standpoint of administrative efficiency. The government (and/or private employers) cannot be expected to waste time and resources confirming claims of natural immunity when it is reasonable to expect some such claims may be false.
But if reliable proof of the fact and timing of infection is presented at the employee's cost, I don't see how the government would have a rational basis for denying an exemption to the vaccination requirement.
In fact, you can get antibody tests which will confirm this, and are actually superior in that regard to a vaccination record, because the test says whether you got the immunity, not just whether somebody stuck a needle in your arm: It measures the thing we actually are supposed to care about, not whether the procedure meant to induce it happened.
It still seems to me there might be a problem if antibody tests can't determine when the person was infected, and thus when the antibodies were acquired. If the employer has records of dates of vaccination, and data shows that vaccination antibodies last X months, it can efficiently determine when to require a booster. However, if it knows only that a particular employee had antibodies on date Y, it cannot know when immunity will lapse.
This is so even if antibodies acquired through infection are superior and longer-lasting than antibodies acquired through vaccination. If I'm understanding the science (a big "if" to be sure), you could present a positive antibody test in month 1 and be unprotected in month 2, depending on when you were infected. Maybe there is or will be some way of extrapolating the expected length of protection from multiple antibody tests over time. Absent that, it seems like an antibody test alone may not be an adequate substitute for vaccination when it comes to developing a regime to ensure the workforce is protected long term.
"It still seems to me there might be a problem if antibody tests can’t determine when the person was infected, and thus when the antibodies were acquired."
Why? The only thing you actually care about is the immunity. If you've got it, who cares how you came by it?
Agreed. But you don't just want everyone to have immunity today. You need a system in place to ensure immunity next week, next month, next year, etc. An employer can track vaccination dates and schedule boosters according to what the data says about how long vaccinations last. That doesn't work with an antibody test that doesn't show the date of infection or how much immunity is left.
We do indeed have such a system to ensure immunity. It's quite creatively called the "immune system."
Seriously, there's zero evidence at this point that true long-term immunity to a given virus via B-cell memory (as opposed to the present-day antibody levels that sciencey-millenials and Big Pharma have deemed to be the only thing that matters) wanes over time, against a raft of research demonstrating that it does not. And COVID-specific studies are confirming that well-understood mechanism over and over again.
Real-time vaccine tracking systems are a solution in search of a problem, and will render society dysfunctional in ways the humble no-fly list could never dream of.
Even the Israel study that the anti-vax crowd loves to trot out to talk about how great natural immunity is makes clear that natural immunity to Covid fades over time:
(from https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 )
So, to be clear, it's compelled booster jabs forever on the basis of a "rational basis" test that will never cease to provide a "rational basis" for doing that?
What kind of people watch silently as tens of millions of children receive required vaccinations for decades, involving multiple vaccines, then become strident opponents of vaccination rules when an adult is expected to accept a single vaccine in connection with employment?
Because vaccines are not fungible. If the world was as you perceive it, then the MMR vaccine would work for COVID.
Can you really be this dense?
" If the world was as you perceive it, then the MMR vaccine would work for COVID.
Can you really be this dense? "
These are your peeps, Conspirators.
You have my condolences, tempered by the point that you cultivated and lathered these followers.
Are you totally new here? Kooks refusal to make distictions is, along with his massive production of random baseless slurs and tedious links to music videos, merely a start on his qualifications for the Hall of Fame for Team Stupid.
But most of the arguments about the Covid vaccines have nothing to do with the Covid vaccines per se--they're just general objections to mandatory vaccination that would apply equally well to the MMR vaccines that we've all accepted as a reasonable for decades.
MMR vaccine has a long history of efficacy with minimal side effects. These year old vaccines don't. But you knew that and ignored it, right? Piss off, slaver.
Several billion people worldwide have been vaccinated against covid (though admittedly some with not-very-good vaccines like the Chinese and Russian ones), with minimal side effects.
That's a great big SiSiSi as he has proven time and again.