American Nationalism: Rich Lowry vs. Alex Nowrasteh
Should Americans support nationalism? National Review's Rich Lowry debates the Cato Institute's Alex Nowrasteh.
HD DownloadRich Lowry and Alex Nowrasteh debate the resolution, "Nationalism is an important value that Americans should support." The event is produced by The Soho Forum, a monthly debate series presented by Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes Reason.
For the affirmative: Richard Lowry is the editor-in-chief of National Review. He was selected to lead the news outlet by its founder, William F. Buckley. Lowry writes a syndicated column for King Features Weekly Service and a weekly column for Politico. He is also a commentator for NBC News. His most recent book is The Case for Nationalism: How It Made Us Powerful, United, and Free.
For the negative: Alex Nowrasteh is the director of economic and social policy studies at the Cato Institute where most of his work has focused on immigration. He is widely published in newspapers, blogs, and peer-reviewed academic journals. He is the coauthor (with Benjamin Powell) of the book Wretched Refuse? The Political Economy of Immigration and Institutions (Cambridge University Press, 2020), which is the first book on how economic institutions in receiving countries adjust to immigration. He is a native of Southern California and received an MSc in economic history from the London School of Economics.
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Sigh. With regards to this debate, can we please define American Nationalism? Not some caricature made up by the media or progressives but specifics.
Always judge ideas by the source, not the ideas themselves.
What the hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with what Jason said?
He was asking for a clear definition and not just partisan demagoguery one way or the other.
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I'm afraid you'll be disappointed, because it'll be hard for either nationalists or anti-nationalists to agree on much — and what they do agree constitutes nationalism will be mostly a slough of issues you care little or nothing about either way.
Like, for instance, nationalism says that a matter of [FILL IN] should be decided consistent with the spirit of the nation, or should be appropriate for whatever nation it is, or some such. You'll then ask, well, what policy on [FILL IN SAME THING] should that result in, and they'll either give their personal opinion that they'll project on whatever nation it is, or they'll say, gosh, I don't know, let's poll or have a plebiscite or focus group research to get the pulse of the nation on it.
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That was my thinking exactly. I know nationalism and populism are bad and it has something to do will Trump but that's as far as I get.
Right; Nationalism as in supporting a national US Constitution or Nationalism as in National Sozialism.. The two types are of exact opposites but just 'Nationalism' shortcuts that defining ability. Probably on purpose (i.e. leftard manipulation and deception).
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I'm no nationalist, but from what I've seen lately nationalism is not a serious threat to liberty. On the world stage now, nationalists are at least as likely to help liberty as to hinder it. You have to ask them, after your preference for the nation (which produces a lot of stances that are on the whole a wash in terms of individual liberty), where do you stand on some of the host of other issues which are neither here nor there in national terms?
Mark Twain said patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. I see nationalism as blurring the distinction between society and government.
Most people do that to a considerable degree. However, in my experience these days nationalists tend to be populists, who usually express a high degree of alienation of society from their government. So I see nationalism as tending to do the opposite of what you think it does in this regard. But the term is vague enough that it can encompass both tendencies depending on circumstances.
However, in my experience these days nationalists tend to be populists, who usually express a high degree of alienation of society from their government.
Only when their team isn't in power. Once their team gets into power their faith in government miraculously reappears.
But then they quit being populists. Don't expect an -ism to be something someone necessarily keeps.
One typical issue of nationalists is to favor a certain flag as representing their nation. Big Fucking Deal. But nationalism is full of such Big Fucking Symbolic Deals you're unlikely to care about.
Historically nationalism has usually been a tendency of a certain self-defined nation of people to want to get out from under an empire or other imposition they see being imposed on them from outside — geographically, ethnically, or otherwise outside. So the general tendency of nationalism has been more libertarian than not, because such impositions are usually authoritarian or some kind of restriction that keeps a nation from expressing themselves in culture, language, religion, arts, political participation, or some such.
“Historically nationalism has usually been a tendency of a certain self-defined nation of people to want to get out from under an empire ”
That seems to be the case with Quebec nationalism or Arab nationalism, neither of which strike me as being remotely Libertarian. Neither was Vietnam’s or Algeria’s National Liberation Front, nor the PLO.
Sometimes Nationality is imposed on a group of people. After the communist revolution in China, ethnologists combed the hinterlands looking for people like the Hmong, Lahu, etc, giving them their own writing scripts, radio stations, newspapers, and sense of community heretofore absent.
American nationalism doesn’t seem to conform to the above. The Iroquois already saw themselves as an agglomeration of 5 nations. Many of the immigrants from Europe still treasured ties to the ‘old country’ and of course the Black population still views the whole American enterprise with a healthy skepticism. Maybe American Exceptionalism, the idea that America isn’t bound to what restricts the rest of the world, is the best we can do.
Blacks might feel less ‘skeptical’ if the left didn’t work so hard to create divisions among the population.
The divisions weren't created by the left, but were there from the very beginning. The European immigrants fully realized they weren't slaves from Africa or Indians. The Blacks knew they weren't Indians or religious dissidents from England, and so on. Even the English divided themselves along the lines of the Cavaliers and the Roundheads, which persists today. The idea that these divisions were created by the left is silly.
More accurate headline: 2 establishment globalists pretend they're capable of independent thought
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Why are there two articles on the same day about this same debate?
And why do neither of them show the debate results?!?
As an Oxford-style debate, the "winner" is the person who converts the most votes.
. . . . . Pre .. . . Post . . . Change
YES . . . 38.9 . . . 41.7 . . . + 2.8
NO .. . . 22.9 . . . 44.4 . . . +21.5
Undecided 38.2 . . . 13.9 . . . -24.3
"YES . . . 38.9 "
Who's the guy who only got .9 of a vote? Someone from Cambridge, I bet. They do fractions there.
It takes a pretty dim nationalist to park the Pashtuns in the same nation as the Azeri's.
Azerbaijan is a couple of 'Stans and a Caspian Sea west of the Afghans
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It's an argument about semantics. Boring.
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