The Myth of Cuban Health Care
How did something so at odds with reality persist for so long? And why is it finally crumbling?
HD Download"If there's one thing they do right in Cuba, it's health care," said Michael Moore in a 2007 interview. "Cuba has the best health care system in the entire area," according to Angela Davis, "and in many respects much better than the U.S."
"One thing that is well established in the global health community is the strength of the Cuban national health system," said Clare Wenham, a professor at the London School of Economics.
Claims like these have appeared in hundreds of documentaries, newspaper articles, and magazine features over the years celebrating the supposed marvel of Cuba's health care system. It's a testament to the effectiveness of the Castro regime's propaganda apparatus that this myth, so deeply at odds with reality, has persisted for so long.
"The Cuban health care system is destroyed," Rotceh Rios Molina, a Cuban doctor who escaped the country's medical mission while stationed in Mexico, tells Reason in Spanish. "The doctor's offices are in very bad shape."
"People are dying in the hallways," says José Angel Sánchez, another Cuban doctor who defected from the medical mission in Venezuela, interviewed by Reason in Spanish.
According to Rios, Sánchez, and others with firsthand experience practicing medicine in Cuba, the island nation's health care system is a catastrophe. Clinics lack the most routine supplies, from antibiotics to oxygen and even running water, and their hallways are often occupied by ailing patients because there aren't enough doctors to treat their most basic needs. Cuban hospitals are unsanitary and decrepit. It's exactly what you'd expect in a country impoverished by communism.
The only thing that's changed is that because of social media and the COVID-19 pandemic, the government's propaganda facade has finally started to shatter.
And yet in 2021, some journalists were falling for the claim that the Cuban government had set the model in its response to COVID-19. By July of that year, ordinary Cubans had taken to the streets—and to Twitter and Facebook—in part to call attention to what the pandemic had actually meant for Cuban hospitals and clinics.
In the 15 years since the release of Michael Moore's documentary Sicko, which celebrated Cuban health care, everyday citizens have been armed with smartphones, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, empowering them to tell the truth about what it's really like to walk into a Cuban hospital.
So how did the Castro regime's propaganda machine manage to fool so many for so long? According to Maria Werlau, executive director of the Cuba Archive, the answer lies with Cuba's foreign medical missions, which are teams of health care professionals dispatched to provide emergency and routine care to foreign countries.
The first medical mission was sent to Algeria in 1963. After the fall of the Soviet Union, when the government lost its major source of aid, the program was ramped up significantly as a source of revenue for the impoverished nation.
The Cuban government has promoted the missions as a humanitarian endeavor, and a demonstration of the community spirit and selflessness central to the communist project. In his 1960 speech "On Revolutionary Medicine," the Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara said that "Individualism…must disappear in Cuba." He recounted the story of a group of physicians in Havana "who demanded remuneration" before going into the country's rural areas to treat the sick. He dreamed of replacing them with a new class of doctors drawn from the peasantry who would "run, immediately and with unreserved enthusiasm, to help their brothers."
Rios participated in the medical mission in Sierra Leone in 2013, where health care specialists from around the world came to help contain the Ebola epidemic. The members of the mission were told that when they returned to Cuba, they would be received as heroes. Rios says that, while he did receive a stipend that went to cover his living expenses, medical personnel from other countries were generously compensated.
The myth of Cuban physicians as selfless healers started to fracture in 2000 when two doctors from the mission in Zimbabwe slipped a note to an airline official with the handwritten word kidnapped. They had denounced the Castro regime and were being brought back to Cuba against their will, possibly to face jail time. Instead, they wound up in the U.S. and were granted political asylum.
In a 2020 report, Human Rights Watch said the Cuban medical missions "violate [doctors'] fundamental rights," including "the right to privacy, freedom of expression and association, liberty, and movement, among others." It noted that "many doctors feel pressured to participate in the missions and fear retaliation if they do not," and that "governments that accept Cuban assistance that includes the abusive conditions imposed by Cuba risk becoming complicit in human rights violations."
In 2006, the George W. Bush administration created the Cuban Medical Professional Parole Program, granting health care workers stationed abroad permanent resident status. All they had to do was make it to a U.S. embassy. Over 7,000 medical workers took advantage of the program.
In 2014, the New York Times op-ed page published an editorial calling for an end to the program. American immigration policy "should not be used to exacerbate the brain drain of an adversarial nation," it noted. In other words, the rights of doctors to decide where and how to live should be subordinate to what was best for the Cuban government.
After the mission in Sierra Leone, Rios was redeployed to a military base in Mexico. One day, he was sent with a group of doctors to buy some phone cards so they could connect with their relatives back home. He decided to make his escape. Rios found a job at a Mexican pharmacy and started saving money to pay a coyote to bring him into the U.S. He was picked up by border officials, and taken to an immigrant detention center for 42 days. After his release, he could join his family in Miami.
In 2018, a group of Cuban doctors who defected from the medical missions sued the Pan American Health Organization, which is part of the World Health Organization, for aiding in human trafficking and for earning $75 million in fees by acting as a middle man.
The medical missions are primarily a way of selling Cuban health care services abroad. So what's health care like for those living on the island?
Julio Cesar Alfonso is the president of the Miami-based Solidarity Without Borders, which helps Cuban doctors who have escaped. He says that there are two health care systems in Cuba—one that is used by the majority of regular citizens, and another that is reserved for tourists and the Cuban elite.
When defenders of Cuban health care acknowledge its deficiencies at all, they usually point the finger at the U.S. trade embargo, which has been in place since 1962. But the deplorable conditions in Cuban hospitals have more to do with a lack of basic health care supplies, which are readily available from other countries, such as antibiotics and steroids. Cuban hospitals also have a shortage of beds and stretchers, and some were without water for six to 12 hours a day at the height of the pandemic.
So what impact does the embargo really have on Cuban health care? Medical products have been technically exempt from the embargo since the passage of the 1992 Cuba Democracy Act. But the law does stipulate that U.S. companies need a license in order to sell to Cuba—and critics are correct to point out that this requirement adds red tape to the process. Total U.S. health care products purchased by Cuba from 2003 to 2021 averaged a mere $1.4 million annually, in what should be a $50 to $100 million market. But it's not the licensing process that accounts for such paltry sales; companies would gladly obtain permission to sell their products to Cuba if they could earn enough money to make it worth the effort. Cuba has a severe foreign currency shortage because it produces little in the way of goods and services that the rest of the world apart from the U.S. wants to buy.
Promoters of Cuban health care often cite the country's infant mortality rate as evidence of its success. "How is this possible" that "an American infant is, by official statistics, almost 50 percent more likely to die than a Cuban infant," wrote Nicholas Kristof in a 2019 New York Times column that looked at one of the most often repeated figures in support of the claim that there's something exceptional about Cuba's health care system.
While conceding that "the figures should be taken with a dose of skepticism," Kristof chose to interpret them regardless in support of his priors: "Cuba has the Medicare for All that many Americans dream about."
Cuba has a variety of strategies for manipulating its infant mortality rate, such as seeing to it that fetuses less likely to survive outside the womb never get the chance. There's significant evidence that Cuban doctors coerce women into aborting fetuses shown to have abnormalities after routine ultrasounds.
Vincent Geloso, who's an assistant professor of economics at George Mason University, co-authored a 2018 paper arguing that Cuba's low infant mortality rate is the result of misclassification using a different indicator known as "late fetal deaths."
Despite reports early in the pandemic that Cuba was an outlier in its success in combating COVID-19, by August of 2021 The New York Times was reporting that Cuba's health care system was "reeling," with oxygen supplies running low, a shortage of syringes, and mortuaries and crematories "overwhelmed." Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel blamed the U.S. trade embargo.
Sánchez thinks that, as the Castros' health care myth crumbles, ordinary Cubans are beginning to realize that they are not threatened by foreign enemies, as the regime propaganda machine has claimed for decades.
"The only enemy of the Cuban people," he says, "is the Cuban government."
Written and hosted by Daniel Raisbeck and Jim Epstein; narrated by Daniel Raisbeck; edited by John Osterhoudt; camera by Epstein, Osterhoudt, Isaac Reese, and Meredith Bragg; graphic design by Nathalie Walker; animations by Reese and Osterhoudt; additional editing support by Regan Taylor; additional research by Alexandra De Caires; translation assistance by María Jose Inojosa Salina; English subtitles by Caitlin Peters.
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"So how did the Castro regime's propaganda machine manage to fool so many for so long?"
The US and European media and academia love communism and are happy to act as part of that propaganda machine.
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Having grown up in the Cold War, it became painfully obvious that whenever a lefty lectured about the superior *anything* of communist countries, those claims would be exposed as bullshit either by what they choose to count, or how they choose to count it. And this article continues to reinforce that notion.
You want uncomfortable silence from lefties?
Ask them to compare the negative environmental impacts of the economies in West Germany and East Germany.
Harry Browne once had a great takedown of the environmental movement. He basically said, "Government- all governments, the world around- are responsible for the worst abuses of our environment. It is a foolish mistake to expect them to fix this."
He pointed out how poor the environmental record was for Eastern Block nations, but then he also detailed how the worst polluters in the US are government agencies like the US Mint, and Department of Energy. When even a "responsive democracy" like the US is gawdawful at securing the environment, you have to know that Authoritarian governments like Cuba (where complaining gets you a cell, or a bullet) are 100x worse.
Our navy is spilling fuel in the water table in Honolulu.
Amazingly, people who were desperate to be lied to about the situation believed the lies they were told! Go fucking figure.
This is why the US media must be dismantled along with the democrat party.
I've heard it said that communism has gotten a bad rap, it's phenomenal success as a religion has been over shadowed by it's abysmal failures as a political and economic system.
In totally unrelated news, Walter Duranty's Pulitzer Prize has still not been withdrawn - although Wikipedia now describes him as a propagandist rather than a journalist.
Didn’t Bernie think it was great as well?
“American journalists talk about how bad a country is because people are lining up for food," Sanders said. "That's a good thing. In other countries people don't line up for food. The rich get the food, and the poor starve to death."
Bernie Sanders, as Mayor of the People's Republic of Burlington, VT 1985
Do you think Bernie is (or was) retarded enough to believe that those are the only two options?
Yes
Socialism been berry, berry good to Bernie.
A+ post
No one needs more than one kind of processed food wafer per day.
More on point:
Sanders has repeatedly extolled Cuba’s healthcare system, opining that in Cuba the communist revolutionary and dictator Fidel Castro “gave them [the Cuban people] health care, totally transformed the society, you know?” 60 Minutes, February 2020
Not clear to me if Bernie and Fatass are stupid enough to have ever believed Castro's Potemkin hospital propaganda line, or if they just thought the people they were preaching to were stupid enough to believe it.
-jcr
Probably neither one is 'that' stupid. But preaching is but a side-effect of Greed without principles... Ya know how criminals make 100M excuses of why they had to rob that Bank.......
The Bank is greedy because it contains 'everyone else's' earnings.
Projection is amongst the favorites of excuses. Out of an entire gang of pyromaniacs; whoever yells FIRE first wins.
He still does.
I used to work with this African-African guy who had nothing but praise for Cuba. This was around 2002 I think. According to him Cuba's medical schools were churning out doctors who were then going around the world and helping people. Not sure how true it was, but that was his story.
He also had praises for communism. For example it's against the law to pass a hitchhiker. So everyone has transportation. Cuba also has no homelessness. This is because if some stinky homeless person knocks on your door, you're legally required to give him food and lodging. The last thing you want is to be reported.
Cuba's medical schools were churning out doctors who were then going around the world and helping people.
Well...Technically they were. They would train doctors and send them to other countries. They didn't do it for free. The other countries paid them for it.
With oil.
The best part of communism is the ?free? ride....
... for the DEPENDENT members of society.
And it all falls apart when more people are looking for a ?free? ride off of others than there are any people motivated to create the ?free? ride....
Communists and Leftards GREEDILY and PURPOSELY have a blind-side about the Supply end of the equation. Because 'Slaves' don't matter or something.
I think the success has led to do with Cuba's propaganda network, and more to do with the fact that many reporters might as well have "I want to believe" posters on their wall when it comes to communism. We've had refugees for decades that could have told anyone that asked what the real status of Cuban Healthcare was like. Failure to realize the failure is a matter of desire not insufficient data.
Less not led. What I get for typing on the phone.
Fake news! And dangerous disinformation!
Socialism is the ultimate fulfillment for caring people with limitless compassion. Health care (look, the word is right there) is just a form of socialism. If we have enough compassion we can do everything with nothing. Complaints about lack of medical facilities and supplies come only from people who refuse to heal after being told how much the state loves them.
All you need is love, and government guns.
"If we have enough compassion we can do everything with nothing. Complaints about lack of medical facilities and supplies come **only from people who refuse to heal** after being told how much the state loves them."
Deserves a repeat.... +100000 perfect sarcasm...
"In 2014, the New York Times op-ed page published an editorial calling for an end to the program. American immigration policy "should not be used to exacerbate the brain drain of an adversarial nation," it noted.
"How is this possible" that "an American infant is, by official statistics, almost 50 percent more likely to die than a Cuban infant," wrote Nicholas Kristof in a 2019 New York Times column...
The NYT, pushing false narratives? Say it isn't so!
"The NYT, pushing false narratives?"
Yes, since 1851.
Justice over truth!
“ we must choose truth over facts”
J Biden
That "how is this possible" line is one that should have been investigated further rather than being a rhetorical question.
Though, I hate infant mortality rates as a point of comparison. Even if everyone was using the same measurement (they are not) the numbers are so low as to be statistical noise.
Whenever someone makes a claim like that, about a developing world country like Cuba with a straight face, I laugh them out of the room. It completely undermines their credibility. The only difference between Authoritarian Developing countries like Cuba/North Korea and Kleptocratic Developing Countries like Zimbabwe is the method by which they leech off the rest of the world. The former lie about their successes so that ideologues will fund them in a quest against the US, and the latter show you how bad they are constantly so that ideologues constantly give them money to do better. Both are functionally useless at providing for their people.
American immigration policy "should not be used to exacerbate the brain drain of an adversarial nation,"
Isn't that the exact opposite argument they make for immigration from literally every other country?
Isn't that the exact opposite argument they make for immigration from literally every other country?
It's worse than that. According to Reason, anybody with the wherewithal to weld a few 55-gallon drums together and land in Florida is good enough for the United States to embrace, a work ethic or marketable skill is completely unnecessary.
Welding is a very marketable skill. Building your own boat shows initiative.
No kidding. How many Americans would fail that test?
Clinics lack... oxygen
On the plus side, the lines for oxygen are much, much shorter.
Nobody needs 27 kinds of air.
Cuba has the best health care system in the entire area," according to Angela Davis, "and in many respects much better than the U.S."
Well... I guess if it takes the Cuban Healthcare topic to get Reason to acknowledge Angela Davis' existence, then so be it. We'll take what we can get.
People hate facts they don’t like. The mistake the left makes is thinking that controlling the narrative is all they need to control reality. In reality, they can’t even control the narrative. Which is why they hate free speech and are doomed to failure anyway. You might as well hate thinking and communication: people are going to do it. You can’t stop them, you can only beclown yourself by trying.
That is a very positive take, that reality [along with free speech and personal agency] will prevail. I sincerely hope you are correct, though at times I tend to doubt it; never underestimate a person's ability to deceive themselves, especially in groups.
I don’t think it will be easy, but it will prevail.
Reality will prevail. If you want to be a part of that, you have to work with it, not against it.
Reality always prevails.
The question is how much damage is created along the way. Michael Moore and the NYT pushing this bullshit for decades is how we got Obamacare, and will continue to be used to push Medicare for All.
The good news for the US is that it won't be too much longer before Bernie "Medicare for All" Sanders is no longer in the Senate.
Let us think kindly of the soon-to-be dearly departed.
But not too kindly.
He might last longer if he'd wear a hat outdoors.
Reality ALWAYS prevails. Usually in a cold, harsh way that leaves bodies in the streets, when the planned 5-year food production meets the reality of that is actually in the silos.
[see: Texas winter 2021 electricity distribution]
When were there bodies in the streets in Texas last year? Don't make up lies, that makes you a propagandist that others speak of in this comments section. Cut it off.
According to Wikipeda, it was estimated there were between 246 and 702 deaths attributed to the Texas winter storms and the related power distribution crisis. On the other hand, you may have a point; there were probably only a few of the bodies found literally "in the streets"; maybe only the ones due to traffic accidents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis
That is a very positive take, that reality [along with free speech and personal agency] will prevail.
It will, eventually. It took over seventy years for reality to catch up with Russia's 1917 revolution, but catch up it did.
That is a very positive take,
It's not a 'take'. It is what is.
There is reality, and there is leftist imagination.
The left has already lost. They lost on the day they codified their beliefs. Because their beliefs, to work, require the destruction of reality.
It is just a matter of time. The sooner we end this, the less damage they can do.
I’ve been saying that here for years. Remove them all and make a brutal example of any who don’t step down willingly. We’ve had enough of their authoritarian bullshit.
You didn’t mention the right. Do you think this only a problem of the left, and not also of the right?
Because it is.
Whataboutism.
I think the point is that those people who are pushing to censor and regulate speech in our current environment are almost exclusively on the left.
Yes. There is no ‘both sides’ here.
The right could do better.. But most of that 'better' would be standing up to the left.
The left pitched and thwarted the vote on the Cares Act. Trump did sign it and also openly supported it - but it wasn't "from" the right.
The left pitched and passed the Federal Reserve Act which basically turned every citizen into a 'slave of the state'.
The left pitched and passed the FDR "New Deal" (All UN-Constitutional and basically launched the Nazi(National Socialist)-Regime).
It's almost a given that every single National Socialism that has struck the USA UN-Constitutional was pitched by a Democrat.
So no; In the 'big' picture it's not a boaf sidezzz thing.
True, the main problem is republicans not focusing on destroying the left.
Claims like these have appeared in hundreds of documentaries, newspaper articles, and magazine features over the years celebrating the supposed marvel of Cuba's health care system. It's a testament to the effectiveness of the Castro regime's propaganda apparatus that this myth, so deeply at odds with reality, has persisted for so long.
Hundreds? Um, possibly tens of thousands of mentions if we count purely mainstream journalists and other Democratic party creatures who constantly pointed to Cuba's healthcare system to try to nudge the US into justifying one.
Remember the kid who Clinton forcibly deported back to Cuba? Eleanor Clift quipped "hey, at least he'll get free healthcare" on the McLaughlin group back in the 1990s. I remember my jaw hitting the floor when I heard that.
Cuba's "superior healthcare" has been an absolutely mainstream attitude amongst even mildly center left Democrats, so there's hardly any need to point to... "Angela Davis", the God Mother of Critical Race Theory to illustrate the concept.
Michael Moore and Angela Davis as "authority" may have been a poor starting point.
But makes a good point about doubting anyone's "authority."
If mainstream Democrats hadn't have been so amenable to Marxism over the last several decades, Angela Davis' positive support would have been a poison pill.
You could ask the same question about the US health and educational systems, systems that are ridiculously overfunded by international standards, deliver substandard results, and yet people steadfastly maintain the myth that they are underfunded and are calling for pouring ever more money into them.
If you look around the world, you'll find that good health outcomes are achievable with a fraction of what the US spends on healthcare.
For all the massive problems that the Cuban healthcare system has, the fact that both the life expectancy and the healthy life expectancy (years of life that you are healthy) of Cubans is about the same as that of Americans should drive this point home.
In fact, US healthy life expectancy is lower than that of shitholes like China and Colombia, countries whose per capita GDP is lower than US per capita health care spending.
Life expectancy in America is lower than other countries since we have freedoms to do stupid shit that leads to earlier death. Not to mention certain groups of people who for some reason fear the American medical system that litterally experimented on them in the past
litterally experimented on them in the past
The past?
Does a company built by German immigrants and another built on Hungarian research colluding to fight a virus that originated in China (wet market or GOF lab) count as an American Government experiment or no? I can't keep track of when the imaginary geographic construct switch is set to 'ON'.
Does a company built by German immigrants and another built on Hungarian research colluding to
fight a viruscreate profits on the back of a virus that originated in China (wet market orGOF lab) count as an American Government experiment or no? I can't keep track of when the imaginary geographic construct switch is set to 'ON'.Touché. What Americans do not realize is that the statistics the Michael Moore, Robert Redford, Ted Turner spout from the World Health Organization on Cuba, are provided to the WHO by Cuba. There is no verifiable source on any claim reported about Cuba because the Castros control the data dissemination. If you have family in Cuba, have visited Cuba, are from Cuba, you would know that the above story Reason provides is old news. My aunt has RA (Rheumatoid Arthritis). RA is an autoimmune and inflammatory disease caused by the immune system attacking skeletal joints. Very painful and debilitating. When I visited my aunt in Cuba, all that the “world class Cuban health system” provided as vitamins. When my aunt traveled to Miami to visit her daughter, a US Citizen, I took my aunt to a Miami rheumatologist. The treatment plan was vastly different. Now in Miami she can walk, cook, bathe, sit, and perform simple physical therapy tasks. In Cuba she was essentially cripple.
Cuba’s health care isnt. It is curious anyone would believe Michael Moore regarding health issues considering he has a BMI > 35 minimum. In Miami the Cubans have been at war with the Miami Herald for decades because they paint Cuba as paradise, while Miami Cubans as right-wing crazies. Imagine that
"Now in Miami she can walk, cook, bathe, sit, and perform simple physical therapy tasks. In Cuba she was essentially cripple."
Yes. This is the point that people like NOYB2 miss when they look at these types of statistics. Expenses don't tell you what is so expensive. And Life Expectancy doesn't tell you about the quality of life along the way.
A few years ago, my dad had open heart surgery, and I asked his doctor what the options were. The doctor gave a whole range of options from outpatient surgery down to "diet, exercise and medication changes". They were doing the current surgery because the costs had come down some, and it had the best quality of life outcome. In a socialist system, they'd be spending money on some nitro pills, and telling him to get more exercise and that would be it.
15 years ago, my daughter came down with RSV. We spent two weeks dealing with her waking up every hour all night long to cough and cry. Finally the doctor called me up and said "Just give her a benadryl at nights for the next 5 days and let me know how it goes." She got 5 good nights of sleep and was fine. This was all on the downlow, because technically benadryl cannot be thusly prescribed.
5 years later when my Son had the same RSV, we were sent home with a giant backpack nebulizer with a big mask and albuterol treatments. It was like waterboarding to get a 18 month old to wear that mask, but it did allow him to sleep through the night.
Americans and our "All you can eat" insurance buffet consume massive amounts of healthcare. It creates markets for new treatments that socialist countries will later adopt, but in the meanwhile, our costs will be higher.
I gave life expectancy only as a statistic that many people use. You can look at HALE, cancer death rates, obesity rates, etc. The point remains: Americans are less healthy than people in countries that spend much less on healthcare.
Your father might well have been able to avoid heart disease altogether if he had lived a more healthy lifestyle for the decades before he went to the doctor. But he never had to think about paying for open heart surgery because he knew he could socialize the cost.
Two cases of medical malpractice aren't really making a good argument for US socialized medicine.
US healthcare is socialized, just like it is in socialist countries. The US is just so wealthy and the US medical lobby is so powerful that the US ends up spending much more on healthcare in absolute terms than other nations. But health outcomes end up being worse anyway.
Taking health advice from a morbidly obese man whose blood type is cookie dough is absurd.
The leading causes of death in the US are the same as in Europe: cancer and heart disease, largely caused by obesity and lack of exercise. Europeans have the same freedom to overeat and not exercise as Americans.
You're starting from the unproven (in fact, incorrect) assumption that if they feared the US medical system less, they would live longer.
The leading causes of death in the US are the same as in Europe: cancer and heart disease, largely caused by obesity and lack of exercise. Europeans have the same freedom to overeat and not exercise as Americans.
NPR told me for years that Europeans were superior in every way to Americans healthwise.
And NPR is correct: Europeans are generally healthier than Americans despite spending less on healthcare.
because Europeans eat less junk food, and have healthier life styles - and don't have the AMA food pyramid.
Visit Southern Europe. They walk everywhere. Many towns are not car accessible, with people parking their cars outside the walls. Additionally their grocery stores are not the super centers that we have. Also their meal portions are petite while ours are…you know where this is going. Americans are some of the sickest people on the planet. The only reason they live as long as they do, is because we in medicine rx half a dozen medicines to keep them alive, e.g. statins, Type II diabetic meds, hypertension, etc. I know some physicians who drop their patients from their clinics when patients are noncompliant with treatment. We did not go to medical school, train as residents and fellows, to be enablers. There is something to be said for evolutionary forces, natural selection and cooperating therein. We have limited resources. There arent enough medicines for everyone. There might come a time that patients who refuse to be compliant will possibly be cutoff, so that others who are also in medical need, have access to those limited resources.
Therefore my point If you look around the world, you'll find that good health outcomes are achievable with a fraction of what the US spends on healthcare.
The spending on healthcare is a red herring. Americans largely spend more on healthcare due to being richer. Just as Americans spend more on food. And on Cars. And on Electricity. We have more money, so we tend to consume more.
And at significantly higher prices.
The reason why Americans spend more on healthcare doesn't change the fact that the additional spending does not result in better health.
The spending on food, cars and electricity isn't socialized; that is, you choose how much you consume and you then spend your money to pay for it.
Healthcare spending is socialized, meaning that if you choose an overly expensive medical procedure or choose a lifestyle that makes you dependent for life on expensive drugs, other people need to bear the cost of your choices.
Europeans have the same freedom to overeat and not exercise as Americans.
They have the freedom but not the means. Food is more expensive and driving is more difficult in Europe compared to most of America.
...if they feared the US medical system less, they would live longer.
This is definitely unproven, but how is it incorrect? For many diseases, early medical intervention makes the difference between recovery and certain death. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that greater medical reluctance leads to more early deaths from otherwise curable diseases?
The highest obesity rates in the US are among the poor, people who can least afford food and cars. On the other hand, Europeans are among the nations who spend the smallest fraction of their income on food.
Most of the diseases that lead to an early death but are treatable are the result of lifestyle choices, foremost obesity, lack of exercise, drug use, promiscuity, etc.
People put a lot of effort into not becoming obese when the alternative is an early and horrible death or being forced to spend $20000/year out of pocket in managing a preventable chronic disease.
"People put a lot of effort into not becoming obese when the alternative is an early and horrible death or being forced to spend $20000/year out of pocket in managing a preventable chronic disease."
Except they don't. Our poor tend to be exactly the ones who bear the cost of uninsured health coverage, and that often includes the costs associated with Obesity.
I don't want to pay for your cigarette and pork rind addiction, that's why we need universal healthcare!
Chicharrones con carne are delicious.
Most poor and uninsured in the US receive free healthcare one way or another; they certainly believe that they are entitled to it.
But you are right to the degree that if we went to free market healthcare and insurance, it would take a few generations for people to change their behavior and become healthier.
For all the massive problems that the Cuban healthcare system has, the fact that both the life expectancy and the healthy life expectancy (years of life that you are healthy) of Cubans is about the same as that of Americans should drive this point home.
I fail to understand how further untethering facts from reality with statistics drives home the point that perception should be more closely coupled to reality. Life expectancy itself is a pretty bullshit metric where one country counts a premature infant it could've saved against it's average life expectancy and the next country that had no chance of saving the infant doesn't. To say nothing of the HALE whereby, again, the first country that saves the premature infant that goes on to develop obesity at 60 and still outlives it's 'healthy' counterparts in other countries is regarded as a less healthy nation than the other countries where premature babies die by the millions off the record and the old 'healthier' people die younger.
There's a case to be had that the US could stand to be healthier, acting like Cuba, China, or Colombia's got it figured out by working harder right up to the point of dying younger is a disingenuous presentation of reality.
Yeah, I fail to understand that too. I mean, your argumentation is fact free, data free, and economically absurd.
The data is consistent across many different metrics and many countries (life expectancy, HALE, cancer death rates, heart disease rates, etc.): the USA has the highest per capita healthcare spending, but average or below average health outcomes among developed nations.
The connection you are missing here is that the excessive US healthcare spending is the reason Americans are so unhealthy. See, economics doesn't stop working for healthcare: the more you subsidize/socialize healthcare, the sicker people are going to get. People are more obese in the US because they can socialize the cost of treating the consequences of their obesity. Doctors overdiagnose and overprescribe, and patients comply, because neither has to bear the costs.
Take it from someone who grew up in a country with much less per capita healtcare spending/subsidies: we took care of ourselves and lived healthy because what is a manageable but expensive chronic disease in the US would have been lethal.
Keep going. As usual, I'm sure you'll convince people of your the inherent superior arguments. Sure, "we took care of ourselves and lived healthy because what is a manageable but expensive chronic disease in the US would have been lethal" is literally saying "We took care of ourselves by preferring to die younger, cheaper, of a disease that could've been treated or even cured in the U.S." or "we took care of yourselves by dying".
I mean, your argumentation is fact free, data free, and economically absurd.
I didn't make any economic arguments in that post or this one. Please keep telling me I'm preaching the wrong economic policies by telling us how you take care of yourselves by dying.
Oh, wait, that's right. You're the dumbass who doesn't think anything has any intrinsic value. Facts are just as valuable as lies to you and you'd knowingly and willingly lie to anyone and everyone for any reason at all including everyone's own death.
Correct, you didn't. And that's the problem. See, economics tells us that we likely get the best health outcomes through market mechanisms; that is, mechanisms where you pay for your own healthcare or health insurance, and in which insurers can base their rates on your actual risk
No, it is literally saying "we preferred staying healthy and avoid disease altogether because market mechanisms communicated to us the true cost of the disease".
I'm just giving the free market/libertarian view of healthcare. It is no surprise that that fails to convince you.
You didn't say "avoid disease altogether". It's right there. You said you lived healthy because of a disease that was lethal and wouldn't have been in the US. You may've meant to say "we took care of ourselves and lived healthy because what is a manageable but expensive chronic disease in the US would have been avoided." but it's not what you said.
true cost of the disease
Again, by your own statements:
NOYB2
April.2.2022 at 5:52 pm
No good and no service has an intrinsic value, not even Bitcoin.
You don't believe in true cost or intrinsic value. Even if you do, the quote, in context, voids your invocation of average life expectancy of any kind as you're ascribing value to your expectations for other people. A notion you yourself describe as Marxist.
By all means, keep convincing us that your baseless nihilism is the wisdom we should all hew to.
Well, I'm glad you understand now what I meant to say.
In this context, "the true cost" refers to medical costs that we would have in the US under a free market system, costs that reflect the availability and market conditions of labor, scarce resources, etc.
The value of a medical treatment depends on who is receiving it. Since I don't have cancer, the value of cancer treatment is zero to me. To an octogenerian, the value of cancer treatment is very low. To a seven year old kid, the value of cancer treatment is very high. There is no "intrinsic value", only the value every potential purchaser places on a good or service.
In a free market, resources are allocated to people who value those resources more than what I called "true costs" above.
In contrast, in the subsidized US healthcare system, resources are allocated to people who value resources less than their "true costs" in a free market.
Clear enough?
The fact is that most countries with universal health care won't even try to treat about half the cancer and heart disease patients the US does. Again it's a stilted statistic. They simply don't count a number of heart disease and cancer patients because they never receive care for those diseases. Why do you think Canadians and others come to the US for care for these diseases? Because we don't turn anyone away. So yes, we have higher rates of death because everyone gets treated.
Why do you think Canadians and others come to the US for care for these diseases?
The lines for superior Canadian healthcare are much, much... much... much....much... much longer. Because it's so darned good.
If a country with universal healthcare decides not to treat a cancer, they obviously have diagnosed the cancer and will list cancer as the cause of death on the death certificate. You cannot explain the health discrepancies between Americans and other populations as some sort of statistical artifact; they are too consistent across many countries and many different measurements.
They come because medical treatments in the US are objectively better and higher quality; that is, once you have a disease, your best place to have it treated is in the US. But that fact does not result in a healthier population because population health is primarily driven by public health measures and disease prevention, not by the quality of treatments once disease occurs.
they obviously have diagnosed the cancer and will list cancer as the cause of death on the death certificate
"We didn't have the time or money or wherewithal to fight your cancer to save your life but we've got the time, money, and wherewithal to perform an autopsy to confirm that we failed to prevent you from dying of cancer. This approach to healthcare is especially pointed here in Cuba or China where you *died*, on average, younger, but cheaper! (and healthier!), than your American counterpart."
Sure, NYOB2, sure.
Why would anybody need to perform an autopsy? The cause of death is obvious from the diagnosis and the subsequent disease progression, whether the cancer is treated or not.
I mean, hospitals don't usually perform autopsies on patients who were treated for cancer but whose treatments failed either.
Are the same Cubans extolling their healthcare system providing data on life expectancy?
For years after Castro took over I've read claims that the literacy rate shot up to 99.8 percent . Do you believe that statistic too?
I don't believe any statistic coming out of Cuba at all, and I'm not defending the Cuban system. But I do believe the statistics coming out of Europe and other developed nations, and they show that you can have a healthier population with much less per capita health expenditure.
And the reason for that is straightforward: population health is largely the result of prevention and lifestyle, not of the quality of the medical system.
The two-faced, two-post shitbag "I'm not defending what I just spent two paragraphs in the previous post defending." gaslighting is very reminiscent of Tony or mtrueman.
Still sore over having your complete and utter ignorance of cryptocurrencies demonstrated for all to see, aren't you.
I'm not "defending" the Cuban statistics. Within a couple of years, their numbers are simply in line with many other countries. That's why I gave China and Colombia as other examples. More examples of poor countries doing well on life expectancy are Albania, Lebanon, Costa Rica, Lebanon, etc. You can find similar numbers for per capita healthcare spending: Spain, Israel, portugal, Chile, Estonia, Czechia, etc. all spend less than $2500/year/person on healthcare (compared to more than $10000 in the US), yet have comparable or better life expectancies than the US.
The myth of the Cuban healthcare is about how wonderfully equal all are, none receive treatment worse than their fellow comrade citizens. But it's pure willful blindness to believe that a country with an economy in the shambles it is in could provide decent care to anyone, let alone everyone. And, no, the economy is not in shambles because of the US embargo, it is in shambles because socialism doesn't work. It never has, and it never will. The US should end the embargo a completely, and deny the fellow travelers and useful idiots their talking points.
Cuba had WAY more "doctors" per capita than the USA long before the communist overthrow.
That makes Cuba's failure all the worse if what you claim is true. You haven't refuted him.
HP does put "doctors" in quotes, suggesting that many of the "doctors" would not be recognized as such in a legitimate state.
Socialist countries can allocate resources toward a particular area to excel in a niche. For example, the soviet union really did have the best ice hockey teams in the world. It is possible that cuba had made a tremendous effort to overproduce qualified physicians, and that when those physicians go abroad they generate good will for cuba. However, in typical socialist fashion, the process of supplying doctors at home with adequate equipment and inventory to serve all the people, not just the elite/well connected, is fatally flawed. Hence plenty of good doctors, a show of good healthcare for elites and tourists, crappy health care for the commoners.
Until recently, Cuba exported physicians to Latin American countries impoverished by exports of American prohibition, sumptuary and asset-forfeiture laws. "They pretend to pay us" was part of the package, since much of their salary went straight to the communist People's State.
Actually, no. Much of the impoverishment resulted in failed big government policies, including socialism. Stop it with the damage control.
But you do need to include the other part : "but that's ok, because we only pretend to work".
Marcus Lemonis did an episode on Cuban entrepreneurs for his reality show The Profit on CNBC a few years back. Most Cuban workers were paid 25 dollars per month by law, but doctors could be paid a whopping 50 dollars per month.
In response to Obama easing American travel restrictions to Cuba, the Cuban government allowed a limited number of entrepreneurs to apply for restaurant permits and to keep a share of the profits. Even a marginally successful restaurant could make far more for the owner than the wage controlled jobs, but health care workers were deemed "essential" and couldn't apply for the permits. One doctor on the show had his wife get a restaurant permit, then quit his day job to help manage it and work for her.
I think the show ended with Cuba cracking down on the permit program because they were afraid of Cuban citizens learning about capitalism first hand.
"...because they were afraid of Cuban citizens learning about capitalism first hand."
Very dangerous for Marxist dictators.
This is weak. Many people want to migrate to the US. If a doctor just needs to enter an embassy and skip all the immigration lines that is hardly an argument. Given that American doctors are over-paid and frankly, milking us, that is another reason to be skeptical. And should we be surprised supplies are running low when we actively try to destroy their economy? And did anyone else notice that the infant mortality paper was a student paper, not published?
Here's a hint dipshit. Most scientific papers are student written. The students do most of the research. As for publication, it's really a crapshoot. A lot of good papers don't get published for a variety of reasons, especially negative papers, while some really bad papers get published because they reinforce the editors perceptions.
And did anyone else notice that the infant mortality paper was a student paper, not published?
Wait, are we suddenly questioning the hard-won wisdom of college students?
"This is weak..."
You.
Are.
Still.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
"American doctors are over-paid". Based on what?
I see how my MD works, and know how he lives. Yes, he is comfortable, and sent his kid to a decent liberal arts college, but when you consider what he did, and what the business costs are, I can think of a
prominentnoisy US senator who was supposedly raking in $300k / yr at Harvard who truly was being overpaid.In 2014, the New York Times op-ed page published an editorial calling for an end to the program. American immigration policy "should not be used to exacerbate the brain drain of an adversarial nation," it noted.
Holy fuck, this is genius.
What about the myth of British healthcare?
Yes, Britain is worse at treating cancer (age standardized mortality rate of 100.5 (UK) vs 86.3 (US)). But Britain is better at preventing cancer in the first place (age standardized incidence rates of 319.9 (UK) vs 362.2 (US)).
If you care about people being healthy, prevention is much more important and effective than treatment.
Prevention is much more on individuals than a health care system. The NHS has still failed horribly at what it was set out to do, which is treatment.
There's no spinning how bad things are at Britain.
Ill health is primarily the result of nutrition and lifestyle; the healthcare system has little to do with either.
Frankly, I'm shocked an appalled to discover that communists would lie about something. Really, if you can't trust the government Fidel Castro built, who can you trust?
Anthony Fauci and Angela Davis.
The myth persisted in much the same way, and for much the same reason that many people were willing to insist that Christine Blasey-Ford was "credible."
This publication whistling past the graveyard of it's own credibility.
"...Clare Wenham, a professor at the London School of Economics..."
'Nuff said; fail.
Until Castro Cuba had the best economy of any country in the Greater Antilles in large part due to the efforts of the US mob promoting gambling and prostitution to visitors from the US. Once the US tourist industry was destroyed by Castro Cuba had to look for another sugar daddy.
In fact Cuba has a long history of looking for and getting sugar daddies. When the USSR was footing the bill Cuba really did have a fairly decent health care and educational system at the basic level. The health care system benefited from nurses providing basic needs like shots and treating the easy to deal with health issues. Kids were taught basic skills (and as has been well established parental involvement is one of the key factors in student success the Cuban educational system gave students a choice; stay in school and be successful or they were given a machete and let to the sugar cane fields to cut cane) with no fluff.
Problem was when the special period hit (AKA the USSR fell apart and no more sugar daddy) the spaghetti hit the fan. But once Venezuela turned commie it sent oil to Cuba to sell and once again had a sugar daddy. Problem was once Venezuela threw out all the skilled engineers who could deal with the filthy oil the country had Cuba had to look for a new sugar daddy. For a while the Chi Coms stepped up to the plate but soon realized Cuba was a money sink and once again Cuba had no sugar daddy with the result being crappy health care and educational systems.
So? The American Medical Association has for over half a century lied to Congress about marijuana, LSD, mescalin, plant leaves generally and even fungi. Calling that liberal capitalism is a slap in the face of communist dictators earnestly struggling to be less honest and more brutal than the evil Christian fascists.
The Evil Christian in the AMA banned medicinal leaves generally? WTF are you even talking about? Actually, nevermind...
The American Medical Association wasn't wrong, many of those drugs are unsafe in most circumstances. Where's the "evil Christian fascists" in all of this? You're straight up lying.
Repent of your evil and seek Jesus, Hank.
Since filming his documentary in 2007 Moore has visited American capitalist doctors 235 times, Cuban doctors zero times.
Likely the best money can buy. It’s always funny to see communists asking people to buy their book or pay for a ticket to see their movie.
The same people who believe Cuba's health system is superior to any other country's are the same people who believe in unicorns, socialism and Santa Claus.
The funny thing about Cuba's healthcare system is that both the left and the right get it wrong, in that both assign way too much importance to the healthcare system in the first place.
Health is primarily determined by public health measures and lifestyle, not by the healthcare system. That's why lots of poor countries with poor healthcare systems have populations that are as healthy or healthier than the US population.
With the failed attempts of "public health measures" in many countries, your statement simply isn't the case.
What "failed attempts"?
What countries would those be and how are you measuring?
There are many ways you can look at it; healthy life expectancy is probably one of the easiest. You can find WHO data here.
Countries with comparable or better healthy life expectancy compared to the US include Bahrain, Bosnia, Latvia, Montenegro, Trinidad, Romania, Tunisia, Jamaica, China, Greece, Chile, etc.
The New York Times has a consistent history of lying concerning topics on which it finds it necessary to influence the public. The concealment of the failures of Communism is certainly one of these topics. Walter Duranty's concealment of the famines in the USSR in the 1930's is a prime example. Another example is Cuban health care. A third example, although not concerning Communism, is the 1619 Project, which professional Historians have universally derided.
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