Did COVID Come From a Lab?

Author Matt Ridley debates virologist Stephen Goldstein on the origins of SARS-CoV-2.

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Did COVID Come From a Lab?

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Best-selling science and technology author Matt Ridley and University of Utah virologist Stephen Goldstein debate the resolution: "It is likely that the SARS-CoV-2 virus originated in the Wuhan laboratory in China."

Defending the resolution is Ridley, the author of 10 books, including Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19. He sat in the U.K.'s House of Lords between 2013 and 2021 and served on the Science and Technology Select Committee. He is a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, a fellow at the Academy of Medical Sciences, and a foreign honorary member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

Arguing against the resolution is Goldstein, a virologist at the University of Utah conducting research on human genetics. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Pennsylvania, where he conducted research on the biology of MERS-CoV, a zoonotic virus first identified in 2012. Over the course of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, Goldstein has engaged with the Utah Department of Health and Human Services, University of Utah Health, and local and national media to provide scientific expertise. He has co-authored reviews and original research papers on the origin of SARS-CoV-2.

The debate is moderated by the Soho Forum's Chief Operating Officer Jane Menton.

Comments

[Minadin]

Yes.

And we said so 4 years ago. Back when it was a 'conspiracy theory'. Even some of the 'experts' have finally come around.

But back then, it was hyper-racist to suggest that it might have been an accidental leak from a sophisticated, high-tech science lab doing cutting-edge research. How dare we malign an entire culture like that. Bigots.

Instead, the preferred, mainstream, non-racist theory, was that it was a bunch of dirty foreign peasants, who could not suppress their cravings for weird ethnic foods or practice basic food safety, hygiene, or sanitation. They were to blame. Not racist.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Of course we will never "know" with certainty, because so much time has passed and any documentation coming out now has had plenty of time to be processed.

But for me, the best evidence of it being a lab leak is that the CCP refuses to provide any documentation, and has punished everyone who cast any doubt on the party line. Just as with so many lies from the climate alarmunists, people with the truth on their side don't have to resort to lies and coverups to prove their case.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

NIH $ to Eco Health Alliance $ to Wuhan Institute of Virology (known for poor safety protocols).

Now why on earth would this consortium want to deny any responsibility for creating a pandemic?
And how convenient there was (is) a non racist “wet market” just a few hundred yards away.

Im going with Occam’s Razor on this.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

(Chinese wet market serving up bats, pangolins, and raccoon dogs, no less; no chance of judgement or blame there)

[diver64]

3,000 yrs of that but suddenly it's an unstoppable pandemic from a bat? I never thought that wet market thing made much sense especially with a place next door called Wuhan Virology.

[Rick James]

Really?

[mad.casual]

Evidently still in the "Collecting Harumphs" phase of protecting their phoney-baloney jobs.

[Longtobefree]

Next debate: Does the sun rise in the east?

[CE]

What debate?
The odds of a novel and dangerous coronavirus randomly originating in the same city as a coronavirus lab that was researching gain-of-function, and multiple employees at that lab dying, are so low as to defy logic.
What happened to the "party of science"?

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Multiple employees first to die.

[car-keynes]

Did Ridley say "human mice" as he began answering the final round of questions?

[Eeyore]

They realized years ago that there would never be another pandemic - unless they created it themselves. Public health leaders need you scared in order to continue to hold power. The debate should be between accidental and deliberate.

[JFree]

Whether it is an accidental lab leak or a deliberate lab leak – the virus is then a bioweapon.

So what is the libertarian view of how to defend against bioweapons? Ignore them? Just make sure our own hands are clean? Do you seriously believe that the only future bioweapons will originate from US funding and that therefore if we stop funding them they can no longer exist?

[Don't look at me!]

the only future bioweapons will originate from US funding

That has been the case so far.

[JFree]

So it wasn't Trump who said China was the cause? With your ilk parroting that?

Just yet more bs to avoid the question I asked - What is the libertarian view of how to defend against bioweapons.

Or is your answer - don't need to. Only the American government can ever produce bioweapons

[JFree]

Libertarians have not contributed squat to any understanding of the origins of SARs COV2. Why is this particular topic structured as a 'debate'? That story of - and consequence of - the origins begins sometime in 2019 (maybe earlier) - but it definitely ends sometime between Jan 10 - 12 2020. Which is roughly when the first deaths happened in Wuhan and a few days before the virus left China. That's when the genomic sequence was released to the world and thus when everyone in the world had the ability to know exactly what everyone in the world was soon to be dealing with and the ability to figure out what to do - with the virus itself rather than its mythological origins.

After mid Jan 2020, the origins investigation is something for forensic scientists and ultimately govts and people challenging govt research. The objective is valuable but can only be how to prevent FUTURE pandemics. The covid pandemic has left the barn. From then, the investigation is a diversion for anything that occurred with the world during the first year and a half or so - maybe the epidemic/pandemic phase before it becomes endemic - of covid. The public health phase.

[Don't look at me!]

The culprits deserve punishment.

[JFree]

OK. I would believe that your ilk gave a damn about that except you didn't give a shit about the 'crime' itself when it was happening.

[Don't look at me!]

Whatever that means.

[mad.casual]

As long as we aren't asking questions like "Are we still funding GOF research?", "Has the research funding pipeline been destroyed?", and "How do we know?" is what's important, I guess.

[gordo53]

What if the right answer is none of the above? What if the consensus that it was released from the Wuhan lab is a setup to discredit China? What if the virus was brought into China by one of the participants in the World Military Games in Wuhan in October of 2019? Who would do such a thing?

[diver64]

Yes. Anything else?

[squarooticus]

Natural origin theories are simply not credible in the face of overwhelming circumstantial evidence in favor of the lab leak origin hypothesis. This "debate" mostly makes me want to understand what Mr. Goldstein has to gain, or to avoid losing, from continuing to promote natural origin, or if he's just committed to his priors and dismissing all the disconfirming evidence.

[diver64]

Reminds me of the scene in Johnny Dangerously when his brother ran into Danny Devito's office and told him he had tire tracks, footprints, tape recordings, bank records, bullet casings etc and Devito said "it's not enough, it's flimsy and won't hold up in court"

[gordo53]

Of course the covid virus came from a lab. The only question is which one. The US would like you to believe it came from the lab in Wuhan, but did it? There are at least a dozen nations doing sophisticated bio-weapons research. I think every one of them was at the World Military Games in Wuhan in October of 2019. There was plenty of opportunity to introduce the virus. Many athletes were sickened. Most didn't even suspect what they had until after the pandemic got going.

[car-keynes]

What happens to viral material? Does it commit kamikaze suicide and exit like a crash of virus and human blood?

Were the market people who got ill as related by a lady who subsequently got ill and attributed it to using the common market restroom ever tracked down and polled by a request for their DNA?

Did anyone catch on to how the Wuhan researchers changed the name of a certain virus?

I also noted that the Brit, author Ridley, was clarifying that the animal COVID-19 genome was a different animal than he human COVID-19 genome. I think he was saying that the animal version had to mutate into a human version, but Dr. Goldstein was apparently claiming that the virus does not mutate except according to a dependable cyclical schedule. Even so, wouldn’t entering a different genome (for example, going from ferret to human or racoon dog to human) be a likely way to cause a virus to mutate since it has to pass human immunological integrity?

What are these raccoon dogs? Coon dogs hunt game animals in the USA. To the contrary, racoon dogs seems to be a species of dog as opposed to being a dog that hunters select, breed &/or train to use to hunt game animals.

Also, mention was made of animals that had formerly been utilized by a lab. At some point the Chinese government, what, made them illegal to sell to the market? That one could be an interesting lead. Were there gain of function experiments being performed where the animals being tested were being sold back to the market?? That readily could explain how “the virus” got out.

[It's only a paper moon, Nominalists]

So, more basically doesn't it bother you both that Biden with more resources than anyone in the world ends up with NOTHING as the explanation !!

3 1/2 years ago he said
"The United States will also keep working with like-minded partners around the world to press China to participate in a full, transparent, evidence-based international investigation and to provide access to all relevant data and evidence."

Result: NOTHING