What's Wrong With Abortion Federalism?
Plus: stereotypes within libertarianism, and Katherine compares the editors to Buffy the Vampire Slayer characters.

In this week's Reason Roundtable, editors Peter Suderman, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, and special guest Damon Root unpack the long-awaited SCOTUS ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which overturned Roe v. Wade (1973).
1:31: Discussion on Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization
39:06: "Lightning round" on SCOTUS decisions concerning guns and school choice
51:32: Weekly Listener Question: More than most political ideologies, many of the prominent libertarian thinkers were women—Ayn Rand, Rose Wilder Lane, Isabel Paterson, etc. I think it's safe to say that the movement wouldn't exist without them. But libertarianism today, fairly or not, is stereotyped as being almost all men, often men who are, shall we say, not the most socially adept. Why has that stereotype developed? And how do we, in practice, change both the impression and the actual amount of women in the movement? Bonus question: Katherine—which Roundtabler is like which Buffy the Vampire Slayer character? And why is Nick Cordelia Chase (or Faith, though mostly because of the leather jacket aesthetic)?
This week's links:
"Alito's Abortion Ruling Overturning Roe Is an Insult to the 9th Amendment," by Damon Root
"Here Is a State-by-State Rundown of What Will Happen Now That SCOTUS Has Freed Lawmakers To Restrict Abortion," by Jacob Sullum
"Clarence Thomas Calls To 'Reconsider' Gay Marriage, Sodomy Rulings," by Scott Shackford
"Outside the Supreme Court, Our First Glimpse of Post-Roe Politics," by Christian Britschgi
"Get Ready for the Post-Roe Sex Police!" by Nick Gillespie
"In Defense of Roe," by Nick Gillespie and Regan Taylor
"Alito's Leaked Abortion Opinion Misunderstands Unenumerated Rights," by Damon Root
"In Landmark 2nd Amendment Ruling, SCOTUS Affirms Right 'To Carry a Handgun for Self-Defense Outside the Home'," by Damon Root
"School Choice and Religious Liberty Advocates Just Won Big at the Supreme Court," by Damon Root
Send your questions to roundtable@reason.com. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.
Today's sponsors:
- We all want to make sure our family is protected in a medical emergency. What many of us don't realize is that health insurance won't always cover the full amount of an emergency medical flight. Even with comprehensive coverage, you could get hit with high deductibles and co-pays. That's why an AirMedCare Network membership is so important. As a member, if an emergency arises, you won't see a bill for air medical transport when flown by an AMCN provider. Best of all, a membership covers your entire household for as little as $85 a year. AirMedCare Network providers are called upon to transport more than 100,000 patients a year. This is coverage no family should be without. Now, as a listener of our show, you'll get up to a $50 Visa or Amazon gift card with a new membership. Simply visit AirMedCareNetwork.com/reason and use offer code REASON.
- Life can be overwhelming, and many people are burned out without even knowing it. Symptoms can include lack of motivation, irritability, fatigue, and more. We associate burnout with work, but that's not the only cause. Any of our roles in life can lead us to feel burned out. BetterHelp online therapy wants to remind you to prioritize yourself. Talking with someone can help you figure out what's causing stress in your life. BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist, so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in-person therapy, and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours. Our listeners get 10 percent off their first month at BetterHelp.com/roundtable.
- Announcing The Reason Rundown with Peter Suderman.
Audio production by Ian Keyser
Assistant production by Hunt Beaty
Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Holy hell you guys are obsessed.
Nothing else has happened. Ignore the 2a ruling the day before. Abortion all the time.
Dobbs was a great loss for libertinism.
Worst thing to happen to libertinism since Elagabalus was rolled down to the Tiber.
Even worse than the shudder Mises caucus turning the Libertarian Party into the Trump Party?
Isn’t the purpose of all medicine essentially pro life?
Why else would physicians take the Hippocratic oath to this day since 275 ad?
An excerpt “I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. ”
Mr. logical and rational Rob Misek will now explain to us all, how KILLING parasites that do harm to humans (medicine) and animals (veterinary medicine) is "essentially pro life", even though the parasites are... GASP!... KILLED to DEATH!
Mr. logical and rational Rob Misek is OK with dead human mothers, to preserve SACRED lives of soon-to-be-dead-anyway babies!
Also see https://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-medicine/what-the-life-of-the-mother-might-mean-in-a-post-roe-america What the “Life of the Mother” Might Mean in a Post-Roe America
“We are going to see more deaths and more injuries,” Ghazaleh Moayedi, an ob-gyn in Dallas, said. “I don’t have to speculate about that at all.” Also see https://www.wired.com/story/roe-fall-limit-screening-fatal-congenital-conditions/ “Roe’s Fall Will Limit Screening for Fatal Congenital Conditions”. Self-righteous anti-abortion fanatics may soon heap HUGE helpings of extra grief on parents who will be FORCED to have Mom carry a soon-dead to birth! Shall we ALSO rub Mom’s nose in her forced futile efforts, in the form of the dead baby? Would THAT help satisfy your punishment boners as well?
I'm earning 85 dollars/h to complete some work on a home computer. I not at all believed that it can be possible but my close friend earning $25k only within four weeks simply doing this top task as well as she has satisfied me to join.
Check further details by reaching this link..>> https://oldprofits.blogspot.com/
Congratulations Dennis for having the most intelligent reply.
Hahaha
No, Nazi shit, it isn't. Fuck off and die.
Like all the experiments your good friend Josef Mengele performed on Jews?
Not anymore. Now a doctor is like a paid mercenary. You pay, they do. Zero morals included. Confused about your appareance and disphoric about your sense of male self? Well, let's just chop open your dick and balls and yank out our dick stem, pull it inside out and stuff it back in, into a vaginoplasty. Feel better? Don't like the way your breasts are small? Well, lets cut into them and stuff in this toxic synthetic mushy blob to make you feel better about yourself. Dick not getting hard because you don't want to exercise or loose weight? Well, pay us some money and we'll stuff this inflatable rod in your dick! Don't like that your head is now shiny? Well, We'll take some hair from your back, armpits, and the rest of your head and plug those bitches in the shiny spots. Feel better now? Did you small child, that knows fuck all in the world inadvertently say they were a boy and not a girl? Well, take some of these hormone blockers immediately, but not too many, because they are also used for permanent chemical castration! Don't like the way you look? Want to look like some shit from a comic book, or need some fat sucked out? Got money? Then we got "solutions!"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/3657265/doctors-man-remove-genitals-sexless-alien-unable-urinate/
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/transgender-woman-dragon-lady-chops-8798301
Have you been an idiot all your life, or have you recently suffered a cranial injury?
-jcr
"R" Party is Our Party is the GOOD party! The Party of the Sex Pistols and the Sex Postals, with which you may go Postal with your Sex Pistol, and rape or deceive ALL the young babes, your "binders full of young women", whose binders bind them to be womb-slaves, and then MAKE them carry to term, their Sacred Fartilized Egg Smells! All Hail the Every Sperm Which Is Sacred!
All Hail Lying Lothario and His Lied-to-Harems! http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc105750001
"R" party is better than the "D" party.
But the problem with parties in general, is people in general suck. They suck. All of them!
and accordingly a great victory for puritanism.
It's on everyone's JournoList feed. They're hoping to save the election with it. Expect nonstop chatter about it unless the polls get even worse.
I think I join a very large chorus of men in saying we're sick of hearing about this mostly non-issue. I'm glad for fellow decent family men who have been seeing delays in expanding their home flock due to the limitations in the domestic supply of infants that full required gestation will remedy, but as a man not currently looking to adopt I am pretty tired of hearing about this.
It's a pretty big deal. The idea that they wouldn't have talked about it would be a bigger surprise..
I agree. This is the reversal of a 50 year old regime. Like groundbreaking.
I disagree with many of their takes, but they definitely should be discussing it. A lot.
If they had anything to say beyond what I can get out of the NPCs at MSNBC, but they don't.
It’s be great if they weren’t all retarded hot takes and if any of them could make a libertarian argument for or against.
Dude, with this decision, there's a lot of child support in Nick's future that he hasn't budgeted for.
He should blame it all on the Jacket. And if I was on that jury, I wouldn't disagree.
Did Damon forget about the 10th Amendment? The reason staff care about only three things..open borders, abortion and drugs. I don't know any libertarian who disagrees it is time to legalize drugs and end the drug war..but open borders and abortion have different views in the libertarian community. Can we please discuss foreign wars, the Fed and the rise of far-left authoritarian federal agencies...which I care more about than abortion?
So does Root ever explain how the quickening standard (which can occur at 12 weeks) implies a right to abortion, but an abortion ban after 15 weeks is impermissible under Roe/Casey (which was the specific contention in Dobbs)?
It never implied a right to abortion. It implied a strong right to privacy specifically related to abortion
Which was, according to Roe, not unlimited and came attached with such niceties as compelling state interests.
And Dobbs 15 week timeframe would have become legal under Roe if more justices had signed on to Roberts opinion
Roberts' opinion was an incoherent mess. Like his penaltax opinion in the ACA case.
Right; Like Alito's "the right to privacy still exists EXCEPT 'those' pregnant people" isn't a disaster waiting to happen.
The "right to privacy" does not extend towards ending a human life.
It was a well-reasoned justification for why it was not necessary to overturn Roe/Casey to decide the question that was presented before the court, which was a 15-week abortion ban.
So claiming that a 15-week ban is inconsistent with Roe/Casey as an objective fact is simply not true. There was a way to do it. It just wasn't a solution that either side wanted.
but an abortion ban after 15 weeks is impermissible under Roe/Casey (which was the specific contention in Dobbs)?
That was NEVER the contention in Dobbs after Mississippi pulled its bait-and-switch. You are playing exactly the game that they want you to play. The question was always "Roe, or not Roe?" using a very reasonable-sounding 15-week abortion ban (which was never seriously under consideration) only as a vehicle to decide that question. We know this because Roberts pointed it out. There was a way for a 15-week abortion ban to be reconciled with Roe/Casey. But neither side wanted it.
You keep using this talking point despite Alito not relying on it.
Would it be Jeff if it wasn't both demented and a lie?
Before erstwhile conservatives on the Hill invite the Federalist Society ride in triumph through the Capitol, they should consider the abortive end of the high court of Roman jurisprudence Gibbon describes in the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:
“The reformation of the Roman jurisprudence was an arduous but indispensable task... Seventeen lawyers.. were appointed by [ Emperor Justinian] to exercise an absolute jurisdiction over the works of their predecessors"
All too soon thereafter it became:
"the first care of a reformer to prevent any future reformation... to maintain the text... Justinian...denounced... civilians who should presume to interpret or pervert the will of their sovereign...
Six years had not elapsed... before he condemned... a new and more accurate edition of the same work, which he enriched with two hundred of his own laws...
Each day, of his long reign was marked by some legal innovation"
I don't understand.
Because handing the decision back to the states after legislating from the bench almost fifty years ago is similar how?
Yeah; Cause all those Amendment's in the Constitution are legislating from the bench.... /s Give me a F'En break...
How about you stop pushing for MORE [WE] mob Gov-Gun dictation authority and start pushing for Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
Yeah, that didn't make sense either.
It never does when it comes to abortion for TJJ.
The thing that drives me most nuts is I’m generally pro-choice because I don’t trust Crazy Christians (not regular Christians mind you, the extra special activisty ones) to stop there. But fuck me if people that are pro-abortion* aren’t fucking nuttier than a Christmas fruit cake.
*I call them pro-abortion because most of them aren’t really about people having choice and freedom over their body in all things, they’re just about birthing persons being able to kill their feti.
Ignorance and Chicken-Pecking on full display.... Check..
To be fair to you, you do come off as radically for individual choice, I just disagree with the way you frame the argument in regards to abortion.
Announcing the Reason Rundown with Peter Suderman.
Followed by the Reason Roundabout with Fist of Etiquette.
Who is, of course, most like Angelus.
I thought Fist hosted the Reason Reacharound.
Fist does the Reason Reachthrough. No around about it.
Goddamnit, if you're not first, you're last...
*deletes comment*
Why are libertarians such nerd incels? They probably LARP and belong to MENSA.
lol what a question.
That's gotta be Laursen.
I think the Mensa for wannabes is Densa
Tony claims to have an IQ of 165.
Is it a surprise that people who feel disaffected from society should want the government to have less power over them?
So I can murder my neighbor? You don't have a problem with that?
@Think It Through
Answer up.
Weekly Question: In all my time in this county, twenty five years, I have known only four active LP members who were female.
Why? I dunno. I suspect it's related to the same phenomena I see among software development, and tabletop roleplaying games. Too many of the asocial males attracted to those groups are not just asocial, but anti-social, and they end up driving females away.
In other words, edgelording drives the women away. Even if no one else in the local group is, just one bad egg sends a signal that women aren't welcome because one dude won't stop yammering on about how the NAP gives him the right to be a sexist pig.
It's like sitting in a bar, and noticing three or four women sitting together and casually conversing; and then predicting how soon they will depart once the creepy or just misfit guy tries to join in. It's usually a matter of seconds.
Apparently, these women don't have to depart if their pal, Medusa, looks at the creepy guy.
Your creepy simping drives them away
That or they're all minors who have no idea what he means when he says liberterrarian.
Spend plenty of time around other women who have *zero* qualms about men being sexist pigs and are completely comfortable being sexist women as long as they get to throw the first punch (in both/either the good humor or trolling sense).
Isn't Mattress girl a libertarian?
Oof
Women are welcome in Libertarian circles. Feminazis aren't.
-jcr
Yep creepy guy chasing away the other guys with girlie aliases.
"Weekly Question: In all my time in this county, twenty five years, I have known only four active LP members who were female."
Constant answer: TDS-addled assholes like you, obsessed with an adolescent focus on personality, made it clear that nothing was to be gained in association with such assholes.
Eat shit and die.
Kristy Swanson forever.
Weird. I go on vacation and unplug for a week. When I leave, nobody has any clue what a woman is and borders are just a figment of everyone's imagination. I get back and, apparently, everyone knows exactly which portion of the population lost their reproductive rights within the bounds of clearly-defined lines on a map.
Threadwinner.
>>often men who are, shall we say, not the most socially adept
speak for yourself
New to Reason and enjoyed the pod up until the men were all given the ability to respond to the issue of being inclusive to women, and Katherine was not given time to speak on the issue. As a woman, the “bro” atmosphere has been something that has turned me off to Libertarianism in the past and luckily was replaced by the even worse “Bernie Bro”. But still, it wasn’t a great look.
You're definitely new here. New Libertarianism doesn't have a clear definition of "woman" so it can neither be inclusive or exclusive of whatever that thing is. So this podcast was in fact the most Libertarian of podcasts.
Nevermind, you all are worse lol!
Why don't you go refute him then?
Re: Women
The answer comes down to genetics. Women's brains are wired to be more accepting of the trade of safety for freedom. Men are much more likely to want control over their lives. This is why the L party is largely male, why the GOP is largely slipt (natch, they actually believe in marriage) and why the left gets the unmarried single ladies.
Who gets the married single ladies?
"more accepting of the trade of safety for freedom"
They need to be convinced that it's a false choice. We're not safe from a government that can promise us safety.
No overcoming genetics with words friend.
No need to "overcome genetics". Just point out the fact that we are NOT more safe under tyranny, so their desire for safety does not lead them to desire tyranny.
2:05 "that in 1973 granted all Americans a right to abortion.."
And with all the confusion I'm surprised none of the commentary added, "Only in the 1st Trimester (pre-viable)"...
It may seem silly; But I wonder how many people adding opinions haven't even taken the time to realize that Roe v Wade specifically established State Interest on *ALL* Post-viable pregnancies....
"leaving it up to the State's to decide."
The only Individual 'right' ever granted was in 1st Trimester (Pre-Viable.) because it seems according to the polls given only 19% of citizens really disagree with the Roe v Wade ruling consistently (as stated).
Wouldn't it just be sh*t pie if all this Loss of Individual Liberty was stemmed by nothing more than missing information...
I'm still trying to make any sense out of over-turning Roe v Wade short of that 19% who believe every sperm is sacred just WON the majority of the Supreme Court Justice Seats... That would have to be it; because Roe v Wade left *ALL* Post-Viable abortion interest to the States already.
The facts regarding the decision are buried under the narratives on both sides.
Heard horror stories regarding infections from botched abortions; WIH does that have to do with R-v-W? Uh, well...
Heard that the moment a sperm attaches to an egg, that's a human;
WIH does that have to do with R-v-W? Uh, well...
"It may seem silly; But I wonder how many people adding opinions haven't even taken the time to realize that Roe v Wade specifically established State Interest on *ALL* Post-viable pregnancies...."
You're forgetting Doe v Bolton decided later the same day; By ruling that a doctor's decision that an abortion was 'medically necessary' was constitutionally unreviewable, the combination of it with Roe resulted in elective abortion right to birth, as long as you could find a dishonest doctor. Maybe a shrink who'd say your being upset was a mental health issue.
Abortionists had those docs on speed dial.
So throw away *all* pregnant Women owning themselves because the Constitutional interpretation (i.e. Supreme Court) found it necessary to insist that State's respected the life of the Woman even in post-viable abortion bans??
Oh the horror... Post-Viable Women shouldn't be able to save their own life's!!! They are just reproduction machines of the State! /s
Roe v Wade was very, very Pro-Life.... But propaganda (I believe) pitched just to grow Gov-Gun dictation divided the people on piddly issues; so of course the Gov-Guns had to be granted MORE POWER....
No one forced the women to reproduce. Unless they were raped, each of them willingly chose to get pregnant with a male partner. Instead of rightfully taking responsibility for having sex without the procedures to prevent pregnancy, Roe paved the way for a homicide to be committed at one's will, with some states allowing it to be done late and/or taxes to be paid towards that. That's not pro-life, but pro-death.
which Roundtabler is like which Buffy the Vampire Slayer character?
All the men - Jonathan.
All the women - Harmony.
I can totally see it.
No I’m Cordelia and no no no no. Nick gives Xander vibes.
Red states think they now have the right to prosecute all recreational drug users who got pregnant ever for fetal child abuse. Blessed be the day. Put those preggers alcoholics in the state pen too. I wonder if we can find out which legal drugs cause defective sperm and arrest those baby daddies in advance for child abuse.
Oh, goodie; another lefty shit!
Did you notice the blue states claiming that now, women have no choices at all? Or did that somehow run under your idiotic notice?
Lester is his middle name. His first name is Mo.
Can't manage to squeeze any more lefty tropes into that drivel? I only counted eleven.
The obvious and expected increase in maternal mortality rates.
I am willing to wager otherwise. How much is the increase and how much are you willing to bet?
"What's wrong with slavery Federalism??"<--The Confederacy, same crowd calling for 'abortion Federalism' right now
^YES.... It really rings true. Except instead of skin-color it'll be one's 'pregnancy' status... But since 'pregnancy' never happens in a Woman without a ?willful? (sometimes) act and never happens to men -- it's all okay... /s
She willingly enslaved herself to the State...... Never-mind unintentional accidents... If you willfully drive and run off the road then every accident will stamp a 'slave' status on you and the State will own you for the next X-Months... Because "potential life" could've been with you and ?murdered? by your choice to have a passenger..... [WE] mob voters RULE! /s
This might be my last post, this is so stupid !!!
The exact correspondence with Slavery Federalism tells me I am dealing with a person of no intelligence or heart.
Is it wrong to take an innocent life? Yes or Not but not 'let's roll the dice"
". Any man can say that who does not see any thing wrong in slavery, but no man can logically say it who does see a wrong in it; because no man can logically say he don’t care whether a wrong is voted up or voted down. He may say he don’t care whether an indifferent thing is voted up or down, but he must logically have a choice between a right thing and a wrong thing. He contends that whatever community wants slaves has a right to have them. So they have if it is not a wrong. But if it is a wrong, he cannot say people have a right to do wrong. "
Who do you think said that?
This might be my last post, this is so stupid !!!
The exact correspondence with Slavery Federalism tells me I am dealing with a person of no intelligence or heart.
Is it wrong to take an innocent life? Yes or Not but not 'let's roll the dice"
". So they have if it is not a wrong. But if it is a wrong, he cannot say people have a right to do wrong. "
Who do you think said that?
What "others"? Who was being forced to terminate pregnancies?
People weren't forced to terminate pregnancies, but people were forced to pay for other people's abortions.
Weak. Taxpayers are forced to pay for all sorts of things they don't agree with.
Well; If it's not an enumerated power of the Constitution then it's a Nazi-Regime taking money for UN-Constitutional things.
I believe it's an Individual Right to decide to reproduce but it's not an Individual Right to make other's pay for it.
So we should do more of that or less?
It's not an individual right to end someone else's life. In fact, that's a violation of the NAP.