Abolish Intellectual Property Rights?

Patent lawyer Stephan Kinsella debates Law Professor Richard Epstein

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Abolish Intellectual Property Rights?

The United States Constitution explicitly calls for copyright and patent laws  to "promote the progress of science and useful arts" by "authors and inventors." But would getting rid of all intellectual property laws actually encourage more creativity and innovation by inventors, writers, and artists?

That was the topic of a November 15 Soho Forum debate held in New York City.

Stephan Kinsella, who's spent 28 years as a practicing patent law attorney, argued in favor of the proposition that "all patent and copyright law should be abolished."

He believes that government-created intellectual property laws empower patent and copyright trolls and powerful corporate interests while limiting the free flow of information, thus reducing the rate of innovation and creativity.

Richard Epstein, the Laurence A. Tisch Professor of Law at NYU School of Law, says that our current system isn't perfect but sees copyright and patents as a natural extension of private property rights and believes that it should be defended by libertarians accordingly. 

The debate took place in New York City in front of a live audience and was moderated by Soho Forum Director Gene Epstein.

Narrated by Nick Gillespie. Edited by John Osterhoudt. Production by Caveat. Photos by Brett Raney.

Comments

[DONALD TRUMP is my poobah]

Today was a bad day for intellectuals and rights. Witness:

Spencer, Kessler, Cantwell and other white supremacists found liable in deadly Unite the Right rally

That’s terrible and a chilling blow to free speech. You mean you can sue the organizers of a White Supremacist rally when a White Supremacist runs over some lady in a crowd?!? JFHC! That’s socialist fascism there, that is. But you know what? Fuck antifa. When I get sad I think of Donald Trump and what he might say, which is this;

Remember, the storm is a good opportunity for the pine and the cypress to show their strength and their stability

-Donald Trump

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

Any Trump quote should also include the contradictory quote of his since he has taken both sides of every issue.

You know, I recall when conservatives hated "Flip-Flop" John Kerry but now they adore their very own weathervane windbag.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

"Even though most people agree... I'm presenting a fair deal, the fact that they don't take it means that I should somehow do a Jedi mind-meld with these folks and convince them to do what’s right."

-Donald Trump

[DONALD TRUMP is my poobah]

PLEASE DON’T TAG MY ART PROJECT WITH YOUR STUPID FAKE DONALD J. TRUMP QUOTES!! THAT QUOTE WAS FROM BARACK OBAMA, THE WORST PRESIDENT SINCE THE YEAR 884 AND THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. I’M GOING TO SUE YOU, WHICH WON’T BE A LAWSUIT LIKE THE ONE I WAS MENTIONING AGAINST RICHARD SPENCER. I’M GOING TO SUE YOU LIKE JORDAN PETERSON SUED THAT T.A. THAT SAID HE SUCKED. SO UNFAIR!

WHENEVER I ENCOUNTER A SAD SACK ANGRY LIBERAL LIKE YOU WHO BESMIRCHES DONALD TRUMP BY PUTTING UP A FAKE DONALD TRUMP QUOTE, I LOOK FOR THE REAL THING, WHICH I’VE PUT HERE:

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[Carey Allison]

Do you shave your pubes before your webcam show?

[Mother's Lament]

Since we're doing fake quotes;

"My 84 Camaro ran like a raped date until I wrapped it around a telephone pole one warm summer night. That's why I eased off Everclear."
- sarcasmic

"One day at the pool I discovered what turns a grown man into a pedophile... sexy children"
- Sarah Palin's Buttplug

“if you want to shine like sun first you have to burn like it.”
- George Soros

[MoreFreedom]

I disagree Trump took both sides of every issue. I'll agree he changed his mind (as he learned), and I'll agree he often said he'd do things "greatly" often which didn't get done in spite of his efforts. He brought a marketing sales style to the Presidency, instead of the old promises of prosperity followed by the opposite with failed government programs.

I'd rather have a president who got good results (and the most libertarian president in my lifetime IMHO) then the politicians we've had in the past 50 years who all grew government at the expense of the working class (admittedly Trump did that too, but he's limited by Congress' greed and voting power; in other words a battle he knows he can't win, at least yet).

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[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

Kill innovation then (by abolishing IP). Since it is never going to happen this debate is just a wankfest.

More interesting - big time fund guru is predicting coming deflation:

On the supply side, ESG (environmental, social, and governance) mandates have forced energy companies to shift capital spending from mature fossil fuels to nascent renewables. Meanwhile, banks have deprived fracking companies of funding after their near-death experience in 2020.

https://citywireusa.com/professional-buyer/news/cathie-wood-makes-the-case-for-deflation/a1573368

So her thesis is that the government will cause deflation.

That is an argument even you Peanuts should get behind.

[Mother's Lament]

What will you do if inflation is still at current levels 3 years from now? Because you know we're going to ride you like Seabiscuit if it stays high.
Have you thought of a narrative yet?

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

I'll pwn up to it.

FWIW, deflation is the worst case scenario for Biden. I thought conservatives cheering for inflation should know that.

[MoreFreedom]

Deflation means things get less expensive relative to the local currency. I fail to see how that's bad for Biden.

Have you noticed, the TV news (FOX at least) is talking about the inflation tax (opposite of deflation) while the liberal media is telling you to have lower expectations for your lifestyle.

Now if interest rates rise, that puts a huge load on interest payments on the national debt, potentially bankrupting the country. That would be a disaster for Biden. So I assume what you're thinking is that rising interest rates will cause deflation (which it will for homes, and heavily indebted businesses will see their stock prices decline). Deflation in the US happened 1930-1933 and 2008 with the collapse in mortgage backed securities, thanks to government failure.

[Rossami]

Deflation is bad for debtors. It is not necessary that interest rates rise - it's sufficient that you're having to pay your existing interest and principal with dollars that are more expensive than they used to be. Since the government is the largest debtor out there, deflation would be bad for it.

[Mother's Lament]

Who fucking cares? Inflation is the worst case scenario for the working class. It destroys peoples savings and their independence.

When Soros loses half his wealth there's zero effect on his lifestyle, when it happens to a retired couple it's devestating. That's why non-progs don't care if it hurts or helps your beloved president.

[mad.casual]

When Soros loses half his wealth there's zero effect on his lifestyle, when it happens to a retired couple it's devestating.

Not to mention that Soros doesn't lose half his wealth. When your wealth is measured by zeroes on your paycheck or social security check fractional inflation is a problem. When your wealth is measured by the number of Rembrandts you own, fractional inflation means you just add another zero to the price of the paintings.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Intellectual property should be subject to the same protections as physical property. Stealing IP is a violation of the NAP.

[Rossami]

How long do you get to keep your rights before someone is allowed to build on them? Are you really saying that we should still be seeking permission from Shakespeare's heirs before the local high school can perform Romeo and Juliet? That they should be getting royalties for every quote, parody or spin-off?

Intellectual property is fundamentally different from property rights. I can't build on your property without depriving you of the right to continue using that same property. The same is not true of ideas.

Stealing IP while you own the monopoly on it is a violation of the NAP. But the NAP has nothing to say about how long you should legitimately own that monopoly.

[Vernon Depner]

If today's IP laws had been in place a hundred years ago, we would need a license from Coca Cola to dress up as Santa Claus.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

For authors - life plus 70 years is the current law. Or was.

[mad.casual]

Stealing IP while you own the monopoly on it is a violation of the NAP.

Unless I physically break into your house and steal the papers the idea is written on or hold you at gunpoint and make you explain the idea to me, it's not a violation of the NAP. Even then the B&E and holding at gunpoint are the violation, not the content or the explanation. Asserting the copying of an abstract idea as being askance of the NAP is indistinguishable from "Words are violence."

[mad.casual]

Broodling #3: Leave me alone!
Broodling #2: Leave me alone!
Broodling #3: Stop!
Broodling #2: Stop!
Broodling #3: *punches broodling #2*
Broodling #2: Dad!
Me: Hey! What's going on here?
Broodling #3: He kept copying me! It was a violation of the NAP, so I hit him!
Me: Did he hit you?
Broodling #3: No.
Me: I don't know and can't prove who was copying who and, ultimately, unless he did it with my (physical) property, I don't care. I have irrefutable proof and your testimony that you hit him and he didn't hit you. Go to your room.
Broodling #3: But he was copying me!
Me: OK, if you'd gone to your room before he started copying you, he wouldn't have been able to copy you. Going to your room now stops him from copying you further. If he comes into your room, to copy you or for any other reason you don't want him there, come and get me and we'll deal with that issue.

[Vernon Depner]

There is no such thing as "intellectual property".

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Depends on the intellect.

[mad.casual]

Actually, per your own tenets, it depends on who asks the government for special protection first.

[mad.casual]

Intellectual property should be subject to the same protections as physical property. Stealing IP is a violation of the NAP.

My name is mad.casual. You stole my idea. Prepare to die.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Never gamble with a libertarian when intellectual property is on the line!

[mad.casual]

"Stealing IP as violation of the NAP" is a colorless, odorless, deadly poison from Australia. Fortunately, I've built a tolerance to "Words are violence."

[MoreFreedom]

I agree IP should be protected; otherwise, people won't take expensive risks for big gains, that benefit us all at no expense.

Kinsella's argument that "intellectual property laws empower patent and copyright trolls and powerful corporate interests" seems more to me to be a problem with how the IP laws are written and enforced, as a result of greedy government politicians collecting campaign cash from "patent and copyright trolls and powerful corporate interests" and writing the laws to benefit these people instead of inventors.

It's hard to see how IP laws limit "the free flow of information" other than paying for that information (and IP is supposed to have a time limit after which a copyright or patent no longer applies) and how abolishing IP laws will increase the rate of innovation and creativity since there will no longer be any meaningful incentive to invest in new inventions.

One example of "powerful corporate interests" getting in bed with government was when they increased the copyright time limit on music for big music companies.

Just take the case of authors. Who's going to buy any book when it will be available to read for free shortly after it's published, other than people looking for autographed books on a book tour?

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Like authors, small time innovators would just be run over by large corporations.

[mad.casual]

That explains why I've never heard of large monopolistic companies buying and killing their competition.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Without IP protection, they wouldn't buy them.

[mad.casual]

Then how would you get a trade secret out of them? Killing them without it only guarantees the secret dies.

[mad.casual]

Killing them without it only guarantees the secret dies.

I guess I should be more clear. Literally killing them without attaining it only guarantees the secret dies and is a no-shit violation of the NAP. Anything else leaves the secret in tact and outside your possession.

[mad.casual]

Literally killing them without attaining it only guarantees the secret dies

Come to think of it, not even that. File the plans with your attorney with directions to forward to your NOK or whichever corporation doesn't kill you.

[mad.casual]

Again, you numbskulls act like chefs, bakers, bricklayers, electricians, etc., etc., etc. don't innovate and never did until patent protections (which still don't apply to them) came along.

[Salted Nuts]

Is it done by one or few skilled workers? Is it a schematic to apply equally to any factory?

[mad.casual]

It's hard to see how IP laws limit "the free flow of information" other than paying for that information

Fundamental information theory and also a bit of tautology or cognitive centrism. Transmitted information that elicits no action or response (whether the inaction is voluntary or forced) is indistinguishable from noise. For centuries men attempted and failed to run the 4 minute mile. In 1954, Bannister did it. Within 2 mos., 2 other runners did it. 50 yrs. later, some 1400 people have done it. Bannister's methods weren't and aren't patentable. If they were, they almost certainly would've been able to prevent Landy from catching him and would've been worthless otherwise.

and how abolishing IP laws will increase the rate of innovation and creativity since there will no longer be any meaningful incentive to invest in new inventions.

This is unequivocal and abject horseshit. The reason humans innovate is because innovations are inherently beneficial, not because the government issues them a license. The license inherently distorts the value.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

This like the worst chatroom ever.

[Dillinger]

what are you wearing?

[Vernon Depner]

Sarah Palin's buttplug.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

It always has been.

It peaked when Joe from Lowell was here. Not that he made it. But it was decent then.

[Mother's Lament]

You know you and your socks are half the problem, right?

[Ecoli]

Joe from Lowell is legendary. He has been gone for a decade or so and people still remember him.

I once made him angry at me for disputing his accusation of some Iraqi politician of being a "quisling". I kinda felt bad about that.

[Mother's Lament]

You mean uberprog KosKid Joe from Lowell?

https://www.dailykos.com/blogs/joe-from-lowell/

No wonder Shrike morns him.

[Dillinger]

intellectual property seems like a phantasm. once something exists why can't someone else fuck with it to make it better?

[Vernon Depner]

Weirdly, it's often just the opposite—imitating something exactly can be legal under "fair use" or "compulsory licensing", while "fucking with it to make it better" is called a "derivative work" and requires permission and licensing.

[Dillinger]

makes sense. lawz!

[mad.casual]

I especially like the concept in an abstract international context (not in reference to specific policies, current events, or other context). Intellectual property is a real thing and it needs to be protected across imaginary constructs.

If I copy someone's intellectual property, encrypt it, and destroy the key, do they own the scrambled bits? If someone manages to crack the encryption, do they own it or does the first to file own a concept that was essentially constructed whole cloth from scrambled bits?

[Dillinger]

>>If I copy someone's intellectual property, encrypt it, and destroy the key, do they own the scrambled bits?

if you're copying it don't they still have the original? I guess I didn't think about theft tho'

seems more like a secret to me. once you tell a person your secret ...

[Aspiring Statesman]

Ending all IP rights is a baby/bathwater proposal, like leftists wanting to end all capitalism because it ain't perfect. If patent trolls are a problem, then the law (or admin) should be refined to eliminate trolling (duh!). How about requiring a patent applicant to actually invent something instead of making claims on an idea that "a programmer of ordinary skill" can implement later. Software patents should be required to supply source code, much like open-source licensing.

[Jeemjam]

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