Is Chelsea Manning the First Real 21st Century Politician?: Podcast

Like millions of Americans but with more emojis, the convicted/commuted leaker and would-be senator has views that don't fit neatly into our two-party mold.

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Is Chelsea Manning the First Real 21st Century Politician?: Podcast

Chelsea Manning for U.S. Senate

Chelsea Manning, the former Army intelligence analyst who served nearly seven years for leaking classified documents before being granted clemency one year ago tomorrow, confirmed on Sunday that she is running in Maryland's Democratic Party primary for the U.S. Senate seat held by two-term incumbent Ben Cardin.

"I think that the Chelsea Manning candidacy is pretty great, and it's a harbinger of other things to come," Nick Gillespie says a little past the halfway point on today's Reason Podcast, which also features Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman, and yours truly. "Without her there is no Edward Snowden, there is no robust debate about FISA 702 and a wide variety of stuff….I don't agree with her at all on economic issues for the most part, mostly yes on social issues, [but] she represents a totally different way of slicing American politics."

Also under discussion: the ongoing White House/Congress policy wrangle over immigration, the pros and cons of merit-based vs. family-based migration, missile warnings gone awry, and Kentucky's new plan to make Medicaid recipients get a job.

Audio production by Ian Keyser.

Relevant links from the show:

"Chelsea Manning Showed Us the Consequences of War, and We Threw Her in Prison," by Scott Shackford

"Trump Is Offering the Country a Sophie's Choice on Dreamers," by Shikha Dalmia

"Of Course Most Immigrants Come from Shithole Countries. So What?" by Nick Gillespie

"Merit-based immigration is economically obtuse," by Shikha Dalmia

"Immigration: Beyond the Family Way," by Nick Gillespie

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Comments

[Mickey Rat]

Treason is a hell of a way to start a political career.

[Citizen X - #6]

"Don't i know it" - George Washington

[Mickey Rat]

Washington did not try to run for a seat in Parliament after the Revolution. Also, he stood for principles worth putting in place.

Manning is simply dishonorable.

[Citizen X - #6]

It was still funny, though.

[Rhywun]

I laffed.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Manning exposed acts of murder.

Also, here is Rothbard on George Washington, just to trigger you a little.

[IceTrey]

"They were not professional soldiers" and that was a huge problem considering they were going to fight the most professional army in history.

[silver.]

That's a pretty interesting essay. Thanks for sharing. I always knew that Washington was kind of a dick, the best thing he did was argue against being made president, much like Cincinnatus had done two millennia prior. Command the military for a few years, and then it's back to the farm.

Like that old joke about a police chief recruiting for SWAT, "raise your hand if you want to be on the SWAT team. Okay everyone with their hands down is SWAT."

[IceTrey]

No he just ran to be the President of the United States. As for his principles you do know he owned 300 slaves?

[Vernon Depner]

Treason against tyranny is no vice.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

A libertarian should really not use the word treason to denounce someone. It's embarrassing.

[Juice]

That's ok. No libertarian did so here.

[JoeBlow123]

Chelsea Manning is a traitor.

[Devastator]

Whistle blowing isn't treason

[ThomasD]

Whistle blowing is a term that connotes the release of specific information for the purpose of drawing attention to particular wrongdoing.

Manning's data dump was nothing of the sort.

[Vernon Depner]

An illegal war of aggression counts as a "particular wrongdoing" in my book.

[Leader Desslok]

If Manning had simply given over files related to the Iraq war then you could make that argument. But he didn't, he leaked numerous classified diplomatic information that had no relation to the war in Iraq. Bradly was simply a confused young man who was duped into doing what he did and was used as a pawn.
Sorry but I don't have much faith in Manning's judgement no matter where he stands on the issues.

[Vorkon]

And throwing a temper tantrum and releasing whatever irrelevant documents you can get your hands on, regardless of the fact that none of them brought any important new information to light, just because you think your bosses and co-workers are being mean to you isn't, by any reasonable definition, "whistleblowing."

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[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

As a member of the LGBTQ community myself, I'd love to see Chelsea in the Senate.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Which one are you?

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

Nonbinary gender identity (they / them pronouns).

[operagost]

So in other words, you involuntarily impose your own language rules upon others?

[Elias Fakaname]

More made up bullshit. Like your act here.

[Citizen X - #6]

OBL is trans-sock.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

A socked rolled to make it look like a vagina?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

You had Barney Frank and look how that turned out.

[Brandybuck]

As someone who is almost certainly going to be a far left progressive, I don't want her there. Nothing to do with her chosing a gender or anything like that.

[damikesc]

I just hope that everybody who calls Bradley "her" includes a blatant eye-roll when doing so.

Or using finger quotes, at least.

[p3orion]

^^^This.^^^

[Vorkon]

I think "her" is appropriate for Manning, regardless of the speaker's stance on trans issues; no matter whether you think she's a man or a woman, no one can realistically argue that she isn't a bitch.

[Juice]

I'd like to see xer in the Senate as well, but for pure entertainment value alone.

[BYODB]

Pretty sure you just earned like 5,000 points on this one. Look at the laundry list of suckers.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

In her video, she says "we don't need more or better leaders", then essentially tells us how she'll be a better leader.

I'm not clear on what her positions are, she did give a nod to Democrats who reauthorized all they surveillance bills, that's a good thing. I'm guessing that even if she does get elected (slim) we'll continue to slip into the darkness just as quickly.

[Rhywun]

(slim)

"Instagram adds ten pounds!"

[Crusty Juggler]

She looks like someone Courtney Love had murdered.

[Citizen X - #6]

You're saying she looks like Courtney Love's cultural relevancy?

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

Assuming that was a Kurt Cobain joke, you should know it's extremely problematic to say that a transwoman has a masculine appearance. It's almost as offensive as deadnaming or misgendering.

[Crusty Juggler]

Assuming that was a Kurt Cobain joke

Did Courtney Love have someone else murdered?

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt in case there was some other interpretation besides "Manning looks like Cobain." Oh well. At least you didn't misgender her. Still, saying that a transwoman looks like a man is deeply hurtful.

[Johnny Hit n Run Paulene]

Deeply hurtful to you?

[Vernon Depner]

"Transwomen" ARE men.

[Crusty Juggler]

Courtney Love had Kurt Cobain murdered, boring guy, and that's a fact.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

She tried to warn us about Harvey, too.

[Vernon Depner]

What if you said a "transwoman" looks like Chaz Bono? Could that be a compliment?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Or a transwoman that looks just like Bruce Jenner?

[Vernon Depner]

You do realize that this is the last place on Earth where anyone would give a fuck about being offensive?

[Rebel Scum]

It's almost as offensive as deadnaming or misgendering.

It's almost like putting makeup and a dress on a man doesn't make him a woman.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

You don't know any transwomen, do you? Many of them go on hormone treatment and even have top and / or bottom surgery to alleviate their gender dysphoria. "Makeup and a dress" trivializes their experience, as if transgender identity is merely a low effort Halloween costume.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Many of them go on hormone treatment and even have top and / or bottom surgery to alleviate their gender dysphoria.

Whoa... whoa whoa. Now we're back on the 'transgender are mentally ill' schtick. Jesus, this pendulum is hard to keep track of.

[ThomasD]

"Whoa... whoa whoa. Now we're back on the 'transgender are mentally ill' schtick. Jesus, this pendulum is hard to keep track of."

Here in the US qualifying for re-assignment surgery requires undergoing 2-3 years of continuous psychiatric care. You will not get the surgery otherwise.

So yeah, it does seem rather axiomatic that the transgendered are mentally ill. Whether their mental illness is eliminated by alteration of their genitalia is a question that remains largely unanswered by the medical community.

[Vernon Depner]

Since continuing psychiatric care after surgery is always urged, and hormone and other therapies must continue for life, I would say the question is answered that the illness continues for those who have surgery.

Let's note, however, that "transgender" is not a single condition. People choose to present themselves as the opposite sex for a variety of reasons. Some are mentally ill; some are not. Of those who are mentally ill, not all have the same condition. "Transgendered" is a socio-political concept. It has no objective reality.

[Vernon Depner]

It's almost like cutting off his junk and doing a boob job on a man doesn't make him a woman.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

trivializes their experience, as if transgender identity is merely a low effort Halloween costume.

Umm, I have it on good authority that if you merely 'identify' as the 'other sex', you're done and society shalt accommodate you by referring to you as your preferred pronoun as of 9:37am and that preferred pronoun could in fact switch hour by hour.

But hey, if you want to turn transgender back to its original meaning, you won't find much disagreement here. It just seems kind of... I dunno.... unwoke?

[Vernon Depner]

Are you saying you would reject the sincerity of someone's gender identity choice if the only "effort" they made was putting on a dress and makeup?

[phillhamian]

You gotta work for it

[Johnny Hit n Run Paulene]

Really OBL? You make it quite challenging to take you seriously. But, your arguments are sooooo nuanced. Weirdo . . .

[Rebel Scum]

hormone treatment

Doesn't make a man a woman.

alleviate their gender dysphoria.

Doesn't make a man a woman. Also, genital mutilation is not a good way to deal with the mental illness known as gender dysphoria. As I understand, most people that think they want to be trans get over it later in life. And the suicide rate is quite high among the trans population, might have something to do with mutilating their genitals and regretting it later. But what do I know? I prefer not to validate the delusions of the mentally ill.

low effort Halloween costume.

Have you seen most trans people?

*I know I sound insensitive, but facts don't care about your feelings.

[Vorkon]

More to the point, have you seen MANNING?

[mad.casual]

deadnaming

Wow. Learn something new every day.

The term sounds fantastically evil; The Dark Lord, Mad "Namer of the Dead" Casual. He who is without a name and in whom, names long dead shall be restored!

[Mark22]

It's almost as offensive as deadnaming or misgendering.

Obviously, we aren't trying hard enough. We'll do better next time.

[operagost]

"problematic"

Translation: please report to the nearest reeducation facility.

[Devastator]

had murdered what?

[$park? leftist poser]

Anything to stay in the news.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

I think that once the spotlights go away, she is short for this world.

[damikesc]

Oh FFS, stop comparing Snowden, who actually did good, with Bradley Manning who just shoveled shit out for no actual reason.

[IceTrey]

She released the Collateral Murder video.

[Longtobefree]

Well, it should certainly make the current press fascination with remote mental health diagnosis more interesting - - - -

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

Probably not going to win over the Fort Meade and Navy Crowd. Probably not the best district to run in; although it is gerrymandered as fuck so who knows.

[Vernon Depner]

He's running for US Senate, not state senate.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

Correction noted. Thanks was not thinking today.

[IceTrey]

SHE!

[Longtobefree]

The chromosomes of the 23rd pair are called allosomes consisting of two X chromosomes in women, and an X chromosome and a Y chromosome in men.
Science. He.

[EscherEnigma]

Actually, science recognizes that while that's a good rule of thumb, it's not absolute and nature is way more creative and varied then what you were taught in middle school elementary.

[EscherEnigma]

*middle school biology class. Not sure why I typed "elementary".

[lysergicmonk]

Check your chromosomes...

[silver.]

Some people have 2 Xs and a Y chromosome. Or 3 or 4 Xs. And maybe two Ys. About one make in every 500-1000 has the common variant with two Xs. 64% will never be diagnosed.

[Leader Desslok]

So can we just refer to Manning as a "shim" and be done with it?

[Vernon Depner]

There are two sexes. That is a fact. Science says nothing about what "gender" is because gender is not a scientific concept. It is a socio-political notion.

Science, of course, recognizes that there is variation in the extent to which individuals conform to sex-related expectations. Those variations have nothing to do with whether one is male or female.

Those who are genuinely unidentifiable as either male or female are extremely rare. Such people are not the same as "transgender" people, most of whom are physically normal with respect to sex.

[mad.casual]

IT!

[BYODB]

I don't see any particular reason why he shouldn't run for office. It's not like anyone else that runs is mentally stable or knows how to handle classified information. It is pretty amusing that as a felon he can't own a gun but if elected he could vote to kill people in foreign nations.

That said, this guy is pretty much the poster child for why mental status is a valid reason to disqualify someone from the military.

Oh, and if you plan on jumping on my back because of pronoun usage I just want you to know that the only acceptable way to refer to me is 'Grand Master of the Universe' and if you don't use it, you're othering me and that hurts my feelings.

Just kidding, I don't give a fuck. You can just continue to refer to me as 'cunt'.

[IceTrey]

I just find it hilarious that as a convicted felon she can't own a gun or vote for herself but she can be a US Senator. ROFL.

[zombietimeshare]

You may be half right. Found online: "In many states, Manning would be unable to vote or run for elected office after being convicted of a felony, but Maryland passed a law last year that allows felons to participate in elections." Because, well, Maryland.

[Vernon Depner]

I'd say the libertarian position is that convicts who have completed their sentences should have a clean slate and the same rights as anyone else.

[BYODB]

Correct.

[Devastator]

Yeah, it's the republican and democrat position that once you are convicted of anything you should be ostracized and isolated for the rest of your natural life with minimal rights to say "see!"

[Mark22]

I'd say the libertarian position is that convicts who have completed their sentences should have a clean slate and the same rights as anyone else.

The libertarian position is that being elected Senator shouldn't matter because the federal government should have essentially no power.

[Eric Stratton]

I don't think that is applicable straight down the line. If a person commits manslaughter without intent for example, then I would agree with you. However, if someone is actively trying to destroy the very system that they are now trying to represent then I do not think you should have the ability to have a clean slate. Some crimes are not forgivable, treason, espionage, cowardice are some of those crimes.

[EscherEnigma]

However, if someone is actively trying to destroy the very system that they are now trying to represent [...]
You mean like a great many Republicans?

[Vernon Depner]

Then the sentence should be life in prison or death. If we give them a lesser sentence and release them back into society when it is completed, their debt should then be considered paid and they should have full rights.

[ThomasD]

Can Chelsea even vote in his own primary?

[Thane Eichenauer]

"She has been registered to vote at the apartment in North Bethesda since mid-August, according to the Maryland Board of Elections." per the Washington Post

[JoeBlow123]

Chelsea Manning running for Senate is a great thing and a harbinger of things to come? For so many reasons that are so obvious to even bother listing, how could someone proudly write that as a tagline to a podcast? Who would want someone like her as a boss? Would you? So why would you want someone like that with a significant amount of power? Fucking insane. It is fucking insane to write that and say that.

I am seriously starting to question anyone on this staffs judgement. Keep pushing this open border crap and implying not wanting anyone to arrive makes you a racist, keep pushing this anti-American bullshit, tell us all here with a straight face CHELSEA MANNING should be in the Senate. You want her in high level decision making, someone who tried to commit suicide and is clearly an attention seeker with a childish brain, someone with zero honor to embarrass her name by breaking an oath she made? Not a single one of you argued against this? Are you all daft? Make it the "libertarian" position to support Chelsea Fucking Manning?

Perhaps none of this shit is important to you. It is to a lot of middle of the road people, but yes keep pushing this stupid shit. It looks great to write some dumb shit like Reason supports Chelsea Manning for Senate to most normal people.

[An Owl Named Dur]

Ridiculous tagline. Didn't listen to the podcast because no sane person would spend more than two seconds contemplating a Bradley/Chelsea Manning Senate bid, other than to snark at it.

[mad.casual]

Considering the description of her political accomplishments is summed up with "and a wide variety of stuff..." it sounds like even Welch was having trouble saying anything serious about it.

[AlgerHiss]

Is Manning pro-op or post-op?

Will Manning still get a PSA test? If so, why?

[lysergicmonk]

He is probably 'pro-op' but has yet to go under the knife, making him 'pre-op.'

[mad.casual]

there is no robust debate about FISA 702 and a wide variety of stuff....

This sounds like a poorly written joke off an NBC sitcom;
"She's not just some shallow celebrity candidate or a one trick pony! If it weren't for her nobody would know about FISA 702 and... well... other stuff."

[BunkerBill]

Taxation is a sharing of responsibility only the wealthy believe that taxation is theft they dont pay taxes we should make them - Chelsea Manning

Just another leftist, stop fawning on she/he/it and admit it.

[An Owl Named Dur]

He's apparently doing to punctuation what he did to his penis. Butchering it.

[Mark22]

Manning is a typical young leftist, with the typical delusions that their politics amounts to anarchism.

I hope Manning runs and wins for the Democratic party (the seat will be D anyway); she really embodies what the modern Democratic party is about.

[Eric Stratton]

I am pretty shocked by the support that a lot of people are giving Manning. He dumped almost 750,000 classified, sensitive and unclassified files into wikileaks. He is not a whistler blower, he is not a hero. Those cables caused us nothing but issues with our allies due to frank speak about interactions with national leaders and put a lot of intelligence assets in Afghanistan at risk and more than likely was the cause for the Taliban purge of people fitting the descriptions of assets in the files. Even the video of "murder" is subjective, the pilots might be callous, but the van they hit was carrying fighters and one of them looked to have an RPG. They were not some innocent bystanders, they were not in a marked ambulance and they took the weapons the fighters had with them into the van. That Gillespie thinks Manning is a good candidate is causing me to disregard a lot of things he says since I now doubt his judgement and perspective.

Manning was a traitor, he dumped almost 750k files without looking at any more than a few of them, he had no idea what he was dumping and had also been mentally unstable. Now, the chain of command is at fault for keeping him there, but in the end he made the choice and what he did was criminal and endangered lives.

[JoeBlow123]

The were vocally supporting Manning, Gillespie and Ward. The rest of the crew said nothing to indicate a lack of support for her. Welch seemed to tepidly support her.

Serious lack of any judgement and common sense.

I really like a lot of the comments section here but the articles are starting to be real off putting. Stossel is fantastic though as are some of the other guests they get. Real mixed bag and it is making me question if this is a worthy voice to support.

[Eric Stratton]

I agree. I really do not understand that reasoning by them and the support they seem to throw behind his/her running for the office. It says to me that they are essentially disloyal to the US on this. It is one thing to say that they support the idea that she can run, it is another to seemingly support her.

I really enjoy Stossel as well, I have liked him since I saw him early on with FOX, but some of the articles on here seem to be advocating anarchy and that they want people to be nationless and not really as concerned about individual liberty.

[Leader Desslok]

I think most people who support Manning do so to virtue signal their anti-war credentials.

[p3orion]

No such person as "Chelsea" Manning. Nor is "she" running for Senate.

BRADLEY Manning is a delusional traitor who apparently thinks HIS mental disorder is a qualifier for public office. Given HE is running as a Democrat, HE may be right...

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[Pat001]

Manning is running in Maryland, one of the bluest of blue states. She may not win but she'll get more than a few votes.

[EscherEnigma]

Reading the article: "Huh, that's surprising."
Reading the comment section: "Ah yes, there's the randomly applied vitriol I expect from libertarians. Nothing like deliberately attacking people for making personal decisions that you would not personally make."

[Vernon Depner]

Who is doing that?

[silver.]

My friends and I were discussing age of candidacy last week, incredulous that we're old enough to be in the House. I don't want to be a representative. I don't think I'd ever be confident enough to attempt that. Sadly, I know for a fact that I could do a better job than some of our awful leaders. Incidentally, Manning turned 30 just one month ago. The requirements were established 200 years ago with life expectancy was much lower. A modern 30 year old doesn't know jack shit.

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[jm15xy]

A traitor and a degenerate will fit right in in the political world.

[Liberty Lover]

Bradley Manning has a mental delusion, and is a traitor to HIS country. That this idiot thinks anyone other than other
a few more idiots with the same sexual delusion would vote for him shows the depths of his mental illness.

[gphx]

Reason flaunting Euroecofaggotry.

[yacujaripe]

my roomate's step-sister makes $81 /hr on the internet . She has been fired for 7 months but last month her pay was $19489 just working on the internet for a few hours. you could check here

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[Liberty Lover]

So Internet prostitution is legal now?

[lysergicmonk]

Don't we have enough delusional Senators already?

[crufus]

All US Senators probably deserve some serious pound-me-in-the-ass federal prison time, so Chelsea Manning has a head start there.

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