The Democrats' Deceptive Narrative on Immigration

Shameless reversals at last night's debate.

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The Democrats' Deceptive Narrative on Immigration

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Last night's presidential debate illustrated once again the vast differences between Donald Trump's immigrant-bashing Republican Party and the kinder, gentler Democrats. Instead of fighting over who would deport more people—or speak less Spanish—Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders vowed to intervene (even personally!) to help poor, undocumented immigrants.

But are immigration politics really as simple as good guys vs. bad guys? Evil Donald Trump wants to build a wall. Benevolent Hillary Clinton voted for building a wall.

Nasty Ted Cruz thinks immigrants compete unfairly against low-income Americans, driving down wages. Sweet Bernie Sanders, at least until very recently, thinks the same damn thing.

It's an unpleasant but perennial truth: Politicians politicize things! They play on people's fears! And they reverse themselves, usually without shame. Ten years ago, Hillary Clinton said "I am, you know, adamantly against illegal immigration." Last night she pledged never to deport children living in the U.S. illegally.

People love their political narratives so much that they'd rather not grapple with the fact that Barack Obama set new records for deportations, that George W. Bush tried to be the immigration president, and that 20 years ago one of our major parties paved the way for Donald Trump by saying in its platform: "[W]e must remain a nation of laws. We cannot tolerate illegal immigration and we must stop it." Yes, that was Democratic Party of Bill Clinton.

The truth is that politicians will disappoint you. They'll rarely say two sane things in a row. For instance, Bernie Sanders is great on the follies of Iraq and Libya. But Hillary Clinton was right to smack the democratic socialist around the face and neck for saying nauseatingly kind things about Fidel Castro.

Foreign policy and immigration are hard problems. You should beware any politician who pretends they're easy. Or even that they've held the same position all along.

About 3 minutes.

Written by Matt Welch. Edited by Jim Epstein.

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Comments

[american socialist]

"It's an unpleasant but perennial truth: Politicians politicize things! They play on people's fears! And they reverse themselves"

What pablum! You guys get paid to write this hokum?! The way to really change things is to vote for the same corrupt assholes! Bernie Sanders said something about u.s. Imperialism and Cuba in the same sentence! This is just as bad as voting for a war that killed orders of magnitude more people than those who died in castro's prisons! Hang 'em high!

[B. Woodrow Chippenhaus]

That poor strawman had no chance.

[kbolino]

"Look, there are no prisons in Cuba, and even if there were, only like 1 guy ever died there."

2/10 predictable

[ImanAzol]

I assume you're referring to WWI that Woodrow Wilson got us into by violating neutrality?

Or WWII, that was due to WWI, wherein an attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese led to FDR invading North Africa?

Or are you speaking of Korea, where Harry Truman got us into a quagmire that still requires tens of thousands of US troops, and his party has no withdrawal strategy for?

Or his funding of military operations in Vietnam? Or are you only thinking of Vietnam from the time JFK started sending combat troops?

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[Homple]

"But are immigration politics really as simple as good guys vs. bad guys?"

Ask Cytotoxic.

[R C Dean]

Or Dalmia.

[Yuge Greatness, Jr.]

+1 Shikha virus

[MetalBard]

Cytotoxic just wants to show compassion towards those brown people that manage to survive his constant drone strikes and bombing campaign by making it across our border.

It's like playing tag with drones and bombs, once they make it across the border thats like their safe space.

[Pan Zagloba]

I think of it more like hunting with beaters. If you use bombs to flush them out, then fastest and most capable survivors will be a boon to your country.

[Ken Shultz]

Here's another important truth: The more people are forced to pay for each other, the more picky they become about the people they're paying for.

Europe has been rife with stories about asylum seekers and refugees, but you should see how hard it is to legally immigrate into the EU. It's that way on purpose!

Socialist governments are extremely resentful of immigrants coming and helping themselves to the public trough. Conversely, before the introduction of Great Society programs in the U.S., people hardly cared about Mexican immigration.

If I'm not paying for it, what do I care?

If you're forcing me to pay for them and their children to be housed, fed, their medical care, etc? Then let's build a wall.

European restrictions against legal immigration are remarkably high compared to here in the U.S.--and there's a reason for that. It's becasue they're more socialist than we are.

European practices against illegal immigration are stricter than the U.S., too. The chances of you not being deported if you don't get some kind of asylum are extremely low in places like Scandinavia. They would never tolerate letting illegal immigrants go after traffic violations, etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8234140.stm

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Here's another important truth: The more people are forced to pay for each other, the more picky they become about the people they're paying for.

Going back to the long article on Denmark's 'democratic socialism' (which the Danes don't call it), the residents maintain a very strong connection between the high taxes they pay and what they get back in return. They don't see their high confiscatory tax rates as helping other less fortunate people, they see those taxes as money and services directly back in their own pockets. This is why they're extremely skeptical of immigration-- and are trying to stem it at every turn. Collectively, they're very clear: Pay into the system or get out.

[R C Dean]

before the introduction of Great Society programs in the U.S., people hardly cared about Mexican immigration.

It amazes me how many people miss the connection between our busted immigration system and our welfare state.

Most of the complexity and arbitrariness of our immigration system is around its requirement that you can't immigrate and stay here unless you have a job.

And that complexity and arbitrariness increased as the welfare state grew.

I don't think its much of an exaggeration to say that our welfare state drives our immigration policy.

Not only is it a bad idea to have open borders and a welfare state, its politically impossible over any length of time. As the Northern Europeans are about to discover.

[PapayaSF]

And then there's the b.s. about "how illegals don't get welfare." Yes, they do. They do when they get free treatment in emergency rooms. Their kids get food stamps. I have no doubt that there are illegals in public housing. We know there are illegals getting Obamacare subsidies. Etc.

[R C Dean]

There's no way to know how many illegals get welfare, since many of them hold fake IDs as part of being here illegally. Once you have a fake ID that you are a citizen (and they don't get fake green cards, in my experience), you have an open door to welfare, and no way for anyone to track you as an illegal getting welfare.

[MetalBard]

I wish more open borders types understood this. Until you unravel the welfare state open borders are politically impossible.

[kbolino]

I wish more people (Shikha included) would be honest. RC Dean has at least made his "taller fences and wider gates" position clear. You and Papaya and some others basically argue as though you want no immigration whatsoever, or at least very little, but never come out and just say that.

[MetalBard]

I'm ok with immigration I just want to make sure they assimilate into American culture. I know there are Libertarians who have this attitude that assimilation shouldn't matter, but there are too many places on Earth plagued by ethnic and religious conflict, and these places are not exactly beacons of liberty.

American culture is unique in that it's not based on ethnicity, and because of that we've been very successful at assimilating immigrant groups in the past, however I worry that a combination of the welfare state, a majority of our immigrants coming from one culture, and SJW identity politics nonsense may be damaging our ability to assimilate people.

Islamic immigration is also something to keep an eye on. Europe is having a lot of problems because of it. America might be different, but we don't exactly have a long history with Islam either.

[kbolino]

I would say that's fair, but the extent of assimilation is more of a cultural matter than a legislative one; insofar as the government "controls" migration, policy would thus be dictated by popular perceptions rather than empirical evidence.

In other news, water is wet...

[Loss of Reason]

I agree. I'm sorry but why do we cater to one group? We have other immigrants in this country but I don't have to push 3 for German, 4 for Japanese, 5 for what ever they speak in LA.

The open border people baffle me. I mean, I know some think this country has a lot of issues, but alot of people in the world would want to come here. Why should the southern border get preference?

Now honestly, maybe we should really be war mongers like some people feel here and just take over Mexico and Central America. War for Oil right!

[kbolino]

I don't really understand what sort of point you're trying to make, except to whinge a lot.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

I've been very explicit. Fix the welfare state first and put in some protections from ppl being able to vote themselves money from my pocket and my objections go away.

[kbolino]

So, in other words, never? I'm not necessarily being facetious, but building a giant wall with spikes across the entire border is probably more likely (if marginally so) than "fixing" the welfare state and the fatal flaw of democracy.

[PapayaSF]

I will say, and have probably said in the past, that it's always possible to have too much of a good thing. We now have too much immigration. It's causing social stress and helping to bust the budget. So I would put a pause on it for maybe 10 years, with a very small number of exceptions. But no, not Muslims or poor people or the "family reunification" scam.

[kbolino]

So I would put a pause on it for maybe 10 years

I don't think even Donald Trump would be able to accomplish that.

But even so, what are you looking to have happen in those 10 years? What if those criteria don't materialize? What if things get worse?

[kbolino]

Side note: I was not trying to do a Judge Nap impersonation there.

[PapayaSF]

Time for assimilation, time for wages for unskilled workers to rise a bit, less pressure on schools, housings, roads.

[Bladernr1001]

Not only that....economically unsustainable.

[NotAnotherSkippy]

At this point it's willful. Welfare and graduated income tax are the root cause of many of these arguments.

[Tornado16nb]

Yep see this was the point i was trying to make perhaps not very well in the dalmia thread. Some folks want to think open borders and welfare state operate in separate vacuums...they don't. There is a scarcity of resources and they seem to understand this in opposition to stuff like "free" healthcare which results in long wait times and rationing.

Some of the points there strike me as very unicorn and utopia type thing.

[Ken Shultz]

If the government could take our freedom away simply by paying for everything, that would make it too easy to take our freedom away.

Paying for me doesn't mean you own me. Just ask any girl who's been on an unexpectedly expensive date.

I was pointing out the inverse relationship between social programs and tolerance.

I wasn't saying that social programs are a legitimate excuse to infringe on on other people's freedom.

No, just because what I do might adversely effect you in some way--because of the government--doesn't mean I shouldn't be free to do it. I shouldn't be free to violate your rights, but I'm not required to take your interests into account. If what I want to do doesn't suit your interests, then that's too bad for you--I'm not here for your benefit.

If what I want to do violates your rights, on the other hand, then there's a problem. If what the government does violates your rights, then there's a problem, too, but your beef is with the government. That doesn't justify putting any restrictions on me.

[Eman]

yup it's almost like people resent being forced to do things!

[Tornado16nb]

Yep see this was the point i was trying to make perhaps not very well in the dalmia thread. Some folks want to think open borders and welfare state operate in separate vacuums...they don't. There is a scarcity of resources and they seem to understand this in opposition to stuff like "free" healthcare which results in long wait times and rationing.

Some of the points there strike me as very unicorn and utopia type thing.

[Cap'n Krunch]

Another difference with the European socialism, there if you make a penny income you pay taxes on it. On top of that everything purchased has had tax upon tax laid on it (VAT) so no one gets out of paying taxes, even if they're on the dole they're paying taxes every time they make a purchase.

In American socialism half the people don't pay a penny in taxes because that wouldn't be fair, and most of those even get a refund check every year for taxes they never paid.

We want all the benefits of incredibly expensive government handing out government largess but we only want half of the people paying for it.

[Aloysious]

That still shot of Crazy Bernie is precious. I title it: 'Essence of the Bern'.

[B.P.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I'm not sure if you can snap a picture of Bernie that doesn't make him look crazy.

[fish]

I'm not sure if you can snap a picture of Bernie that doesn't make him look crazy.

Yes....it's truly the most magical of seasons!

[Loss of Reason]

I felt the Bern once. Than the doctor gave me cream and I was better.

[Loki]

And Shrillary giving her angry harpy look is quite fitting.

[Alan Vanneman]

Immigration is a "hard problem"? Not if you read "Reason", which has consistently taken the position that there should be no restrictions on immigration at all. I think I'm "freer" on the issue than 99% of Americans--I'd like to see a lot more legal immigration--but I always thought I was more "conservative" than "Reason". Guess not!

[SimonD]

My basic thought is I'm all for immigration as long as the immigrant is coming because he wants to be an American, not just an American-sized paycheck, and that he does so legally.

[SimonD]

or even 'not just get an American-sized paycheck'....

*sigh* grammar is hard.

[R C Dean]

Welcome to the Bigoted Racist Club, SimonD.

Shikha and Cyto will be along shortly to tell you how horrible you are for expecting immigrants to actually want to be Americans.

[John Galt]

Oh, oh, you sound evil super-racist.

[Eman]

what part of americanness is more american? why is moving in order to get a better job wrong?

[John Galt]

According to most Trump-ettes, ole Ted is just Hillary without the pants suit.

[ranrod]

Trump is pushing Touchback Amnesty for 50 million ILLEGAL ALIENS..

There are very few truth tellers in the media!!

Why Didn't Trump Include His Grand 'Touchback' Amnesty Scheme In His Immigration Manifesto?
Answer: Because he knew that revealing this scheme (that he's been talking about on interview after interview since April 14, 2015) would cause a Conservative revolt and very likely cost him the GOP nomination, so he simply left it out.
As a result, there is no "touchback" Amnesty mentioned nor is there a mention of his wanting to deport all 40 to 60 million illegals in the U.S. in his manifesto.
However, Conservatives and others paying attention will not let Trump off the hook re: his Amnesty. We want "the truth"! We want to know "how" he's going to get "touchback" thru both houses of Congress and we want to know how many illegals-once-removed he will try to bring back..

davelevine

[woodNfish]

"The Democrats' Deceptive Narrative on Immigration"

Is that the same as Reason's deceptive narrative on Trump?

[John Galt]

The way I see it, regardless of what Trump really is, voters are sending a clear message about who's supposed to be in charge. And, ultimately, should Trump be elected, it certainly can't do any more harm than was done by all those idiots who wanted to prove they weren't racists by demonstrating they are absolutely racists by voting for a piece of shit they knew absolutely nothing about except that his skin is black.

Trump wins the nomination and I'll vote for him. Nothing he can do could not any worse than all the crap that's been done over the past going on eight years. And at least with Trump it would be possible to criticize him without being labeled a f*Cking RACIST!!

[msimmons]

Paul then paraphrased American economist Milton Friedman: "You can't have open borders and a welfare state. We've kind of got both right now ? we have a completely open border and we've got this enormous welfare state." He added: "So you've got to stop one of them, and so right now what we really need to do is secure the border. We need to know who comes in, who leaves, we need to make sure none of them are terrorists and then we have to control the border, that's part of it."

http://www.washingtonexaminer......le/2564187

[buybuydandavis]

Foreign policy and immigration are hard problems. You should beware any politician who pretends they're easy.

Uh, what?

Reason has spent the last year daily shrieking "If you aren't for OPEN BORDERZ, you're worse than Hitler!".

[buybuydandavis]

also

But are immigration politics really as simple as good guys vs. bad guys?

According to Reason's "If you're against OPEN BORDERZ, you're Da Debil!", yes.

What the hell is going on here, Matt?

Is your new jar head hairdo a sign of a a counterrevolution against the Progressitarian palace coup at Reason? All of a sudden immigration is a "hard problem", and not "really as simple as good guys vs. bad guys"?

Next it will be "We have always been at war with Eastasia".

It's been odd in the last few days. I swear that Sheldon hasn't hated on Da Joos for at least 3 articles now. And someone wrote a Trump article that actually said he wasn't the Worst Person Ever.

I don't know what's going on, but I like it!

Long live the Counterrevolution!

[Rockabilly]

Have you noticed that you never see Bernie Sanders and Mr Burns of the Simpsons in the same room?

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