Donald Trump Is Wrong About Sanctuary Cities
They are as safe or safer than other places and help make local law enforcement more effective.
"We have to end this sanctuary cities crap FAST!" says Donald Trump, the billionaire seeking the Republican Party's presidential nomination.
Trump, who rarely misses an opportunity to inveigh against both legal and illegal immigrants, has been joined in his condemnation of "sanctuary cities" by many of his GOP rivals.
Sanctuary cities—there are more than 200 across the United States—instruct local law enforcement officials to not investigate the immigration status of suspects or prisoners in their custody. The thinking is that such restraint will make victims and witnesses more likely to help police.
Again and again, Trump points to the murder of Kate Steinle in San Francisco by an illegal immigrant from Mexico to prove his point that sanctuary cities are out of control, dangerous, and lawless. Starting in the late 1980s, elected officials in San Francisco and other cities changed police protocols in a bid to increase cooperation with local residents, many of whom might have been illegal.
Defenders of sanctuary cities say Trump and other critics are rank opportunists with no knowledge of stopping crime and protecting public safety.
"Over the past 25 years, the city and county of San Francisco has been very sensitive to the question of immigration and to the plight of undocumented peoples," says Ross Mirkarimi, the San Francisco County Sheriff who oversees the jail system that released Steinle's alleged killer, Juan Francisco Lopez-Sanchez. Prior to Steinle's death from a ricoheting bullet, the federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) had requested that the county turn Lopez-Sanchez over to them for deportation. But Mirkarimi says that under San Francisco's 1989 "City and County of Refuge" law and its 2013 "Due Process for All" law, ICE needed to supply him with a court order to take custody. Had the agency done so, he would have "happily" complied with the request. In fact, he tells Reason TV that he does so on a regular basis.
In general, first-generation immigrants, whether in the country illegally or not, commit fewer violent and property crimes than either second-generation or native-born citizens. And there's scant evidence that San Francisco is more dangerous than non-sanctuary cities of a similar size. In fact, its murder rate is about one-third that of non-sanctuary Indianapolis.
But this line of argument doesn't hold for some anti-illegal alien activists, such as Don Rosenberg, who started writing about the danger of unlicensed drivers after an illegal immigrant ran over his son in a car and killed him.
"Even if it was true that illegal aliens committed less crime than citizens, every crime that they commit is an additional crime that didn't [have to] happen," says Rosenberg.
Cutting off the flow of new people and reducing the population via mass deportations might reduce the overall number of crimes, but the expense of doing so would be overwhelming, as would the incursions on the civil liberties of all Americans, who would need to get used to showing citizenship papers at routine traffic stops and submitting to a costly and invasive "E-verify" system every time they try to get a new job or hire a new employee.
"To just point the finger at sanctuary cities…because of this tragedy may feel good in venting," says Mirkarimi of Kate Steinle's death. "But it's only going to unravel the good work that is being done to build the kind of trust that needs to be built with these communities in the first place."
About 5 minutes. Produced by Zach Weissmueller. Shot by Paul Detrick and Weissmueller. Music by Chris Zabriskie.
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Is this true of first generation illegal immigrants because it is my understanding there is a large gap between the criminality of people who come here through legal channels and those who do not.
Also, not only do you need to break this up into legal and illegal immigrants to get an accurate profile of what people are talking about, but your point about SF vs. Indianapolis is also ridiculous. San Francisco has the highest income of any city in the country. The median income in Indianapolis is a full 40,000 dollars less than San Francisco. It's therefore ridiculous to cherry-pick those two cities. It's actually ridiculous to compare San Francisco to any city since no city of a similar size has San Francisco's wealth due to the fact that San Francisco has so many tech workers.
Furthermore, how many illegal immigrants are there in San Francisco? It's so expensive that most people cannot afford to live there. What you would need to check in order to determine whether or not this makes people more or less safe would be the crime rates specifically among illegals. You can't just look at overall crime since that doesn't tell you what crime looks like among the group in question and there are too many other variables.
A good rule of thumb for Reason's immigration articles is "figures lie and liars figure." For some reason, they just can't help themselves and the cherry picking and torturing of statistics tends to destroy their credibility in other areas as well.
Part of the problem with immigration is that both "sides" have skewed and tortured the statistics so much that it's almost impossible to actually get a definitive, fact based picture of what's really going vis a vis crime rates, economic impact, etc. The only thing I know for sure is:
1) In a perfect world free trade in everything - including labor - would be the norm
2) This is far from a perfect world, and
3) The current immigration system is a complete clusterfuck.
It's true, all sides in this debate distort the numbers and that's unfortunate. I'd like to think Libertarians are above that for the most part but that would obviously be a mistake.
Slanting stats leads me and other observers to believe there's really no good argument in the first place. Good arguments don't need to be shored up with what are essentially lies.
I am on the side of "all illegal immigrants need to go home".
And, here is a statistic that is neither skewed, nor tortured: every, single alien, who has come across the border, without going through the requisite process, or has overstayed a visa, has broken our laws/committed a crime/is a criminal - period.
It is immensely unfair to allow them to stay while millions wait their turn to come, here, legally.
retiredfire -- Well said.
Be that as it may, SF crime has not increased since it became a sanctuary city.
Would it be less if it wasn't a sanctuary city? You point supports the idea that correlation is the same as causality.
In probability theory we make the distinction. But the truths we know to be universal are derived by induction. All men are mortal not because there is some law that says so, but because there are no exceptions. So yes, in logic correlation is causality at the asymptotic limit. Any proposition that is true for any person picked at random is true for all men.
That's wrong. When you observe a correlation between A and B, it might mean that A causes B, or that B causes A, or that some other factor causes both A and B. Causation isn't defined in terms of correlation (asymptotic or not) but in terms of intervention and its consequences.
Because the PTB would never think to white-wash the stats by entering something as a lessor offense, or just ignoring it completely.
Sort of like the UE numbers.
You know absolutely nothing about crime in San Francisco. I do. It is a fact that a significant amount of crime is committed by illegals, or by their kids. We have significant Hispanic gang activity.
Cities often fudge crime stats to make themselves look good. In recent years we have had an increase in car break-ins, perps unknown of course, but there are frequent complaints from citizens that they can't get the police to take them seriously. The SF government knows that illegals are connected to crime, so they do what they can to hide the problem.
Also, about five years ago I was also told by a doctor at a free clinic that TB was "epidemic" in San Francisco, due to illegal immigration. He may have been exaggerating for effect, but I don't think he was lying. I had to get a $80 chest X-ray because of this. So illegal immigration cost me $80 directly, in a way that would not show up in any statistics.
Tell us how VDARE are perfectly fine gentleman.
I love being told I know nothing by a guy who thinks credible sources are for librul book lernin' faggots. Go back to watching NASCAR.
"So illegal immigration cost me $80 directly"
No, your shitty doctor cost you that much.
And here we have more of the gentlemanly, high-minded commentary for which Cytotoxic is renowned....
Cato, you're an open borders kook. You have zero credibility.
The kooks are calling others kooks. Cute.
Indianapolis: 27.5% black.
San Francisco: 6.1% black.
Another mistake from the article is to claim that "Cutting off the flow of new people and reducing the population via mass deportations might reduce the overall number of crimes, but..." it would be too expensive. Well, not if you don't cut of the flow of new legal immigrants, and simply turn over illegal aliens when ICE asks for them, even without a court order. That, and holding them and proactively calling ICE when the police realize they are dealing with an illegal alien would not be costly at all.
Unlike the very little publicized (and incredible politically incorrectly named, by todays standards) Operation Wetback that President Eisenhower did, Trump and the other Repub's who say "they gotta go" haven't strayed beyond Romney's "I guess they'll leave the same way they came in." True, hints of increasing current deportations have been made, but again, nothing like "Op Wetback." And that was a doosey, with a WW II general brought back to run it, and given carte blanche by Ike to use almost any means necessary. It ran several years, and with all the commotion, lots did indeed self deport.
Carson is doing better now than Trump in one pole, and Carly can easily defuse the "anti Women" attacks, which defuses half of the Dem ammo for the next election. So no, Zach, we don't have to keep the Sanctuary cities "for common sense reasons."
"...a large gap between the criminality of people who come here through legal channels and those who do not."
That gap being 100%.
" And there's scant evidence that San Francisco is more dangerous than non-sanctuary cities of a similar size. In fact, its murder rate is about one-third that of non-sanctuary Indianapolis."
No cherries picked there. No sir.
The gap is actually 0% because disobeying the government is not in itself a crime.
Jeez. That is the definition of crime. It does not mean one has done something wrong or immoral, but breaking the law is the definition of crime.
We may disagree about immigration to some degree, but this is a simple matter of definition.
No, that's the definition of *illegal*. A crime-a meaningful one-must violate someone's rights.
I think I read that in the "Meaningful Penal Code".
No such mention in the "Meaningless Penal Code".
If illegal immigrants are not a problem, I have a proposal;
If an illegal resident is convicted of a violent crime and deported, they also become outlaws. If they return to the country, the law no longer protects them, they cannot get benefits, are not entitled to services, and killing them is not murder.
except that it has been pointed out by others many times latino immigrants are often counted as white when prosecuted or while in prison so there are no real numbers to compare.
I thought they were only counted as white when they were being accused of murdering a black teenager who looks like he could be Obama's son...
The thinking is that such restraint will make victims and witnesses more likely to help police.
And we want our Boys In Blue to get all the help they can. That's a sentiment we here at Reason can all agree with.
There is a world of difference between asking the immigration status of victims and witnesses versus asking the same of people who have been arrested.
This. I really don't get why San Fran or other sanctuary cities wouldn't look into the immigration status of suspects, especially in a situation where they're fairly sure they have the right perp, but can't quite make the case beyond reasonable doubt. Why not look into their immigration status and deport their ass if they're illegal? At least you can get rid of them for a while (until they sneak back across the border again).
Because the city is ruled by left-wing idiots.
Because this is immoral and bad for police-people relations.
Bullshit it is. Criminal illegal aliens cause the most damage in the communities in which they live. It is one thing to have a sanctuary policy that requires law enforcement to not question the immigration status of witnesses and traffic infractions and quite another to have one that shields criminal illegal immigrants from deportation. SF's policy does the latter.
An Ultra- Safe Long Term Savings Plan?
Dear "Reason" reader, I don't care who gets elected, or what the Fed does/does not do, or whether we are in for a recession, a depression, a deflation, hyper inflation or whatever. Why? Because whatever happens, my long term savings will be safe and protected and will , 9 times out of 10, grow at an average of 8% per year over and above the inflation rate, year in, year out, as it has since 1986 when I started it.
Financial Safety Services
onebornfreesfinancialsafetyreports.blogspot.com
Please die in a fire.
I second that.
What are you going on about Schofield ?
That guy has charts. Charts and graphs with pretty colors. He even has some words that explain his charts and pretty graphs.
He also has 3 followers.
Hater.
Libertarians in America should make a push for as many sanctuaries as possible. Make America into a sanctuary nation.
Sarcasm, right?
I don't think so based on this;
Cytotoxic|10.5.15 @ 1:26PM|#
"Be that as it may, SF crime has not increased since it became a sanctuary city."
Which blows the shit out of the assertion that illegals were afraid to report crimes prior to sanctuary city status.
Good point. But another error that Cytotoxic makes is to ignore other changes that change crime rates. SF has become hugely more expensive in the last 25 years, which has forced out a lot of poor people, especially poor blacks. That alone will drop the crime rate.
Still no correlation. Does SF not have lower-income burbs?
Suburbs in the sense of "not in San Francisco," sure. Apparently a lot of the poor are moving to places like Hayward and Antioch, and their crime rates have gone up.
And yes, there is a correlation between illegal immigrants and crime.
More.
The author of your first link all but concedes that he has nothing to go on: "Incarceration rates for murder are an imperfect proxy for rates of murders committed (illegal aliens may be more likely to be apprehended, have less competent counsel, etc )"
Also, what is 'homicide-related'?
Your second link does not substantiate any correlation between illegal immigration and true crime. Illegals still go to jail at a lower rate than natives. It's just a bunch of scary sounding numbers without any context to put them in.
"Which blows the shit out of the assertion that illegals were afraid to report crimes prior to sanctuary city status."
Not really. It's possible that non-reporting of crime makes that crime more persistent.
The whole article is a strawman. No one is saying that sanctuary cities are hotbeds of crime. It's just that they let immigrants , including those who are criminals, stay, which eventually leads to crimes that could have been prevented (perpetrated by the criminal-minded subset of immigrants)
Also, the immigrants crime rate claim is bullshit, bith in general, and because they fail to separate out illegal immigrants.
Why cant pro-immigration types simply accept the fact that anti-immigration types simply think it's a bad idea to let in insane amountz of new people iconstantly? That's all there is to it, and there's nobody who doesnt understand this is true. Anyone who says tbey dont believe it is lying to tbemselves. And its true for all countries. For example, tbe sotuh africans dont like the scores of regugees coming from zimbabwe, and rightly so. I feel for them and think they should also stop their immigration problem. The idea is u iversal, and again valid. And america is not an exception.
I think the whole problem is that culturally, a lot of people have accepted the idea that we cant be "mean" to anyone. That as long as theres someone losing out to a rule, that means that the rule is invalid. That to "deny" the immigrants would be mean an so we gave no valid right to do so, with the assumptjon that america has endlezs resorces and mkney
Why cant pro-immigration types simply accept the fact that anti-immigration types simply think it's a bad idea to let in insane amountz of new people iconstantly?
Because the ProIms can see into the hearts of their opponents, and they see TEH RACIST.
Is something wrong with your keyboard?
His mouse volunteered to bell the cat.
It's really two different questions.
1) Should the government officials ignore the laws we elected them to make in the first and allow illegal immigrants to enter the nation? This way lies edicts made by officials with no check on their power. If they don' t like a law, ignore it. It's not a huge leap to just inventing new laws and not all of them will be laws you like.
2) How many immigrants in general (legal or illegal) should be accepted? This can be debated, but the decision should be decided and enforced by the government using the appropriate process. If laws aren't to be enforced, they should be repealed. If they aren't repealed, they should be enforced.
Well, if progtard cities like SF and traitors like Obama don't obey the law then I'm not going to bother. Fuck all of them. And fuck everyone here who is for this bullshit. I hope you get raped to death by an illegal.
No death. I want them to savor the moment daily for the rest of their lives.
You make a good point.
Indeed. Why aren't city officials thrown into jail for this like Kim Davis? While I'm far from a supporter of Davis, there's some obvious hypocrisy here.
I keep hearing semantical arguments about how sanctuary city violations of federal law aren't really violations and such. Yet Kim Davis was jailed not for any violation of written law, but at the discretion of some judge. Yet KY law has no provision requiring gay marriage licenses to be issued.
There is no rule of law anymore. Just do what you want and don't get caught.
Its worse than that. From the KY constitution:
"Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Kentucky. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized."
She was still clearly in the wrong legally and morally IMO, but the double standard is glaring.
What wobbly, non-existent information with which to form a conclusion on. It appears to be a collection of hearsay arguments and one data point saying SF's murder rate is lower than Indianapolis therefore sanctuary cities are better. Weak.
I followed the link to Mother Jones which has a chart comparing 5 non-sanctuary cities to SF which have higher murder rates. Why only 5 cities? Are there any with lower murder rates? I'm betting there are because this appears to be a reporter writing to a conclusion. And what about crime that isn't murder? How about a look at that?
The premise of this headline might be try or might not, but this article does little to shed light on it and is the kind of incomplete analysis I can get elsewhere.
This article is nonsense trying to make a case for something that is vile. Open borders nuts are so obsessed with unrestricted immigration that they are willing to get down in the gutter with the progtards to make it happen.
You're attacking an argument that wasn't made. The point of the article is that sanctuary cities are not worse than non-sanctuary cities.
That point wasn't expressly made in the article, but it is the larger point. And the larger point of most of the articles here on Trump, and immigration in general. and yes, there are MANY posters here who are open borders nuts. As is Matt Welch.
I see no reason not be polite about any of it. Given how damaging all of this is to the country and people like me who do the work to support this bullshit. And if we argue against it we are called condescending things like 'nativist'. As if the open borders crackpots here are somehow above ANYONE.
Citizenship should have value. That some illiterate indigents can come here against established federal laws and are entitled to services paid for on my back is vile. And anyone who supports this is also vile. That they are for open borders, but lament the welfare state is no excuse.
Sometimes the idiotic response from the open borders types is: "Well, just eliminate the welfare state!" To which the response is: "OK, dude, first eliminate the welfare state, and then we'll talk about open borders."
Exactly. The welfare state isn't going anywhere anytime soon. So let's close the fucking borders. Also, lots of ideas is making it's way though. Apparently central/south american indigent illiterates lick their fingers after wiping their asses. Or something.
Nope. You don't get to hold freedoms hostage to your timetable.
"So let's close the fucking borders."
Nope, fuck off and leave my right of association alone.
At the risk of inviting more of your wicked but very well-argued abuse, I ask you to help me out here.
You decide you want to associate with MS-13 members. I suggest your freedom of association inflicts negative externalities on me. You tell me to fuck off.
Is this correct or have I mis-represented your position?
You can associate all you want, just as long as both of you are where you are associating, as legal residents.
What's next? You get to barge into a jail cell to associate with your bro, because "freedom of association"?
I see you're angry, and that's really just too bad. It isn't the USG's job to cater to your desire for 'value' and hard-on for LAW N ORDA is really not my problem. Spew and foam at the mouth all you want: tough shit.
BTW the biggest expansions in the USG have happened during times of low immigration. There is no correlation between immigration and expansion of the welfare state, in America or otherwise.
How do you take into account the fact that sanctuary cities refuse to report immigrants as such in their reported crime statistics?
I'd live with the total crime statistics correlation as indirect evidence if I didn't know SF plays games with their reported murders beyond all credibility (who commits suicide by going outside, stabbing yourself multiple times and hiding the knife?).
Sanctuary cities would be easier for me to reconcile if they didn't explicitly exempt immigrants from numerous laws citizens are subject to simply because some other agency might abuse the reporting process. It would also be easier to deal with if the politicians representing sanctuary cities were actually doing something to address the glaring idiocy of our immigration process in a meaningful way, and no, comprehensive reform is not meaningful as it's too big and generally is just reshuffling the problems to be addressed.
Is that "suicide by knife" incident real? In SF? I'd like to see a link.
But I agree, as I said elsewhere here: cities often fudge their crime stats. Here's how Chicago does it.
Sanctuary cities simply refuse cooperation with the federal government - even though liberals insist immigration is the federal government's responsibility. They "shield" illegal immigrants from mass deportation that almost never happens. SF is not some "sanctuary" to illegal aliens in any meaningful sense. Many legal Americans can't afford to live there.
Any way you look at it, it's not a sound policy. Why didn't SF inform the INS about the shooter's immigration status? The INS didn't need court orders to do that. The city or the state DA can do something if the feds violated the illegal alien's constitutional rights, if it comes to that.
The premise of this article is complete horseshit. The Reason staff appears to completely lose heir shit over anything immigration related. And for anyone that claims to not be progressive to advocate for sanctuary cities is disgusting.
Ok, before we get into whether illegal immigrants are a new benefit for society, let's get two things straight;
1) An illegal immigrant is already a lawbreaker. Even if he has no other intentions of illegality, he is vulnerable to pressure for that reason. Pretending that his legal status makes no difference is either dishonest of stupid; take your pick.
2) anyone whose child was killed by somebody who was not in the country legally has a legitimate complaint about the law not being enforced. Whatever the general case, in their SPECIFIC case, if the immigrant in question had been thrown out, their child would nit have died that way. Arguing that they are wrong in their attitude about illegal immigrants, even when your argument is correct in all its particulars, is crass and probably a tactical mistake.
You (the author) should try using your head for something other than a hat-rack.
Trump has managed to get everyone, including Reason, to ignore genuine libertarian candidates while drawing out the whack job fanaticism endemic to the GOP. When Ross Perot did the same thing not so long ago, he bailed and Clinton (the other Clinton) won on a toned-down republican platform. Rather than join the frothing batch, we should be pointing to alternatives besides Bernie the communist. Once the LP gets 5% of the vote fascist and prohibitionist legislation will topple. Large contributors need to be made aware of this historical trend amply demonstrated in past election statistics. There are a million magazines holding their breaths for the opportunity to scoop everyone else when Trump of Jeb Clampitt or Cruz-cifixo next farts in an elevator.
*Trump has managed to get everyone, including Reason, to ignore genuine libertarian candidates *
Oh really? What "genuine libertarian candidates" are there? Jack & Slim, that's who.
You people really aren't very bright, are you? Trump offers the only real chance of blowing apart the status quo in politics in this country and what do you all do? Gripe and moan about how your imaginary libertarian candidates--who would never, ever have a chance of winning the election even if they existed--are getting short shrift. Unbelievable.
You should all be rooting for Trump and giving him money.
"You should all be rooting for Trump and giving him money."
Spoken like someone with no interest in freedom.
No, no.
They really are delusional enough to think that their message of hate the cops, isolationism and drug legality will eventually resonate with a good portion of the people, that they call idiots, and worse, on a regular basis.
It's a winning strategy. Really!
I deal with immigrants all the time and prefer them by and large to the average native of any given country picked at random. Refugees fleeing totalitarian wars aside, migrants tend to be smarter and better motivated. Most of the totalitarian enactments that make people flee their homes are nowadays pushed by These United States through the good offices of AFMLS advisors transforming looter kleptocracies into death squad looter kleptocracies. Anyone wanting folks to stay put can vote libertarian and be part of the solution.
Ah, Reason goes whacko anti-American liberal once again. Not because Trump is right about much, but because the 'sanctuary' part is NOT about illegals that are innocent. Yes, the vast majority of illegal immigrants are decent people. The criminals, however, need to be shipped out in every case.
By the way, the main article photo is pathetic. I fully support a reasoned libertarian cause, but to sensationalize an innocent that was murdered by an illegal that the anti-American establishment in San Francisco allowed to be here 'only' because he had brown skin and was from another country, is atrocious.
You failed to distinguish between illegals and legals. In either case, we are not talking about natives of any given country picked at random. We are speaking about natives of the US being violated by the invasion and don't go all Native American on me.
And this idiocy ends with this gem; "...says Mirkarimi of Kate Steinle's death. "But it's only going to unravel the good work that is being done to build the kind of trust that needs to be built with these communities in the first place."
Yeah, trust the people that break into your country?! By extension does it follow that I should trust someone that breaks into my home because they need a place to live of course.
This is a fallacy. What's important for quality of life in a society is not the number of crimes per se, but the chance of being a victim. All else being equal, would you rather live in a society of 100 people where 100 crimes are committed per year, or a society of 10,000 people where 200 crimes are committed per year? And what if 10,000 people immigrated to the latter society, but they only committed 100 crimes per year? This would decrease the average chance of being a victim in a given year (assuming 1 victim per crime) from 2% to 1.5%.
Now let's say that we only care about crimes committed against citizens, and we assume that the addition of immigrants to society doesn't affect the likelihood of a citizen to commit a crime. Well, unless an illegal immigrant is more likely to commit a crime against a citizen than the other way around (corrected for their respective proportions of the population), and this effect is big enough to outweigh the 'crime-diluting' effects of well-behaved immigrants, then the addition of illegal immigrants who commit fewer crimes than citizens still reduces a citizen's chance of being a victim. Humorously enough, this is because because the addition of more immigrants means a crime committed by a citizen is more likely to be directed against an immigrant.
The error in your logic is this: immigration by likely criminals reduces the "crime-diluting effects" of well-behaved immigrants, and with illegal immigration, no one knows who is a criminal and who isn't. And the statistics show that there are a lot (absolute numbers) of illegal immigrant criminals.
Why would a criminal stay in Mexico or South America when he could come here and get free healthcare in the emergency rooms?
There is much less of value to steal that isn't guarded and fenced and the prisons here are much nicer and serve better food.
Well I was pointing out the fallacy in Rosenberg's argument, so I argued from the premise (as he did) that immigrants do commit less crime. I haven't been able to find more detailed information myself, but if you have any, especially relating to prevalence rather than absolute numbers, please link me!
"And the statistics show that there are a lot (absolute numbers) of illegal immigrant criminals."
No they don't. Not the ones you quoted.
I see the anti-immigrant droolers are as tedious and FOS as ever. No, illegally immigrating into America is not like breaking into your home. America is not a club. No, it doesn't matter that they are 'lawbreakers'.
And the open borders idiots are feverishly crafting straw men I see. America is not a club. It's a sovereign nation with established borders.
Well, it certainly doesn't seem fair to legal immigrants, who often spend more time and money getting naturalized than illegals.
Whatever immigration system and quotas we have, do you really want to argue for a system that particularly screws over skilled and productive immigrants? Because that's the system we have.
Injustice against one group does not merit injustice against another. Besides, skipping the line really doesn't screw anyone over anymore than speeding on a highway.
Enforcing immigration law isn't "injustice". Furthermore, these aren't two unrelated groups either, they are groups that compete for limited resources.
You can apply the same reasoning to tax fraud, welfare fraud, and dumping toxic waste: "hey, the costs just get distributed across many people, so nobody really notices".
I'm all for unlimited immigration... provided there is a libertarian system of government in place. Under our current system of government, illegal immigration is harmful, morally wrong, and contrary to libertarian principles.
America (or any nation) is, for all intents and purposes, a private entity. The sovereignty of a nation is akin to private ownership. Obviously a nation can't be purchased or traded in the conventional sense. But that's besides the point.
Otherwise, why have laws and governments? All blue state could say "No more guns for you, because that would be beneficial to society" if we embrace the logic employed by open borders crowd.
And there are no "sanctuary cities". What you have is left wing cities that resist cooperation with the federal government on immigration issues, whether it's warranted or not. That's it. Illegals in this country aren't under constant threat of mass deportation or persecution whatsoever.
"America (or any nation) is, for all intents and purposes, a private entity. The sovereignty of a nation is akin to private ownership. Obviously a nation can't be purchased or traded in the conventional sense."
Uh no. That's not what a nation is. You've all but rebutted yourself "It's private it's just nothing like any other private organization."
"All blue state could say "No more guns for you, because that would be beneficial to society" if we embrace the logic employed by open borders crowd."
The laws are meant to protect individual rights, which the 2A does while anti-immigration laws violate them. The irony here is that the USC has no provisions authorizing the USG to regulation immigration.
What is a nation if it does not have some type of borders?
You can quibble over whether a raven is like a writing desk, but the fact remains that under a libertarian form of government, people have the right to exclude whoever they want from their communities. Under libertarianism, my HOA or neighborhood or private township could choose to exclude Hispanics, or those making more than $70000/year, or people who have been in the country less than 10 years, or whatever. No justification is needed, and no recourse exists.
Under the government we have right now, communities are prevented from making many of those choices locally by law; these decisions are turned into political decisions at the federal level. That's inferior to local decision making, but it's all we have. And at the federal level, the same principle still applies: as a nation, we don't have to justify to anybody who we let in and who we don't let in. In that sense, the "federal government" takes the place of a private organization.
Furthermore, anti-immigration laws do not violate "individual rights"; the Constitution does not guarantee individual rights to non-citizens outside the US. Immigration into the US is a privilege extended to foreigners by Americans, it is not a right.
Gosh, maybe that has something to do with the fact that the median household income in San Francisco is $104000, while it is about $39000 in Indianapolis (below the national median of $50000). San Francisco is so expensive that its illegal alien population is quite law. In addition, the "fewer crimes" statistics are iffy since it's questionable whether the two populations are represented the same way in crime statistics.
In any case, on the one hand, I think sanctuary cities are doing a disservice to their residents, attracting populations that rely on large amounts of government support. On the other hand, I also don't think the federal government should be able to pawn off its own law enforcement responsibilities on states and cities.
As usual, both Republicans and Democrats get it wrong.
"but the expense of doing so would be overwhelming, as would the incursions on the civil liberties of all Americans, who would need to get used to showing citizenship papers at routine traffic stops and submitting to a costly and invasive "E-verify" system every time they try to get a new job or hire a new employee."
I already need to show my drivers license which in my state can only be given with proof of citizenship...birth certificate.
Also, I already need to provide documents proving citizenship and also SS# when applying for a job.
Overall, this article is muddied with generalities, straw men and false conclusions. Did this appear on Buzzfeed?
"I already need to show my drivers license which in my state can only be given with proof of citizenship...birth certificate.
Also, I already need to provide documents proving citizenship and also SS# when applying for a job."
So what?
The point is that we already have all the mechanisms in place for verifying citizenship when people get arrested; there is no additional burden to citizens.
Not my favorite position from the staff at Reason. So the deal is that we overlook the breaking of our immigration law in exchange for the possibility that these people will cooperate with law enforcement and provide information etc. on crime? Wow, what a great deal for us...
So a Rogaine-like unintended side effect of not enforcing our immigration laws is that we gain a legion of super-grateful crime fighting informants?
Naw, of course not. This is just filling cities up with immigrants and forcing the issue of amnesty etc., that's all. And hey, I'm for more immigration so whatever. But just stop with this weak sauce argument about helping out the police.
Illegal aliens cooperate with police to prevent crimes that would not exist if the illegals were not there. Not a win.
Crimes committed by the second-generation would not be there if the first generation was not there.
It is not incumbent on the ICE to comply with San Francisco's 1989 "City and County of Refuge" law but rather for the city to obey federal law.
"Crimes committed by the second-generation would not be there if the first generation was not there."
Maybe we should just deport everyone. No more people = no more crime.
Or we could just deport criminal illegal aliens. If you went over the speed limit or run a stop sign or drink in public or report a crime you should not have to provide police your immigration status. I am fine with that. Hit into someone's car while drunk with no insurance and you are here illegally. Get the fuck back home. We have enough shitheads here.
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Once again an article goes out that tries to equate legal and illegal immigration. Many reasonable people support controlled legal immigration, but oppose illegal immigration. many of us even support greatly expanded legal immigration. We do not have to chose between completely open and completely closed borders.
Kind of disproves the point that "incursions on the civil liberties of all Americans" "would be overwhelming"
That's what
Are there any with lower murder rates? I'm betting there are because this appears to be a reporter writing to a conclusion.
As others, I immediately noticed that the Author conflated legal with illegal immigrants when he cited his crime statistics. What makes this conflation even more troubling is the fact that there is a high incentive for legal immigrants to "toe the line", as they can be deported if they commit certain crimes.
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LOL! This guy is so funny. "We MUST ignore the current laws, to HELP law enforcement!"
Sound familiar?
"We MUST abandon the free market, to SAVE the free market!"
There's always some boogey man for whom we should abandon common sense. Be afraid!
Yes, if we argue against it we are called condescending things like nativist. As if the open borders crackpots here are somehow above anyone.
LOL! This guy is so funny. "We MUST ignore the current laws, to HELP law enforcement!"
Sound familiar?
"We MUST abandon the free market, to SAVE the free market!"
There's always some boogey man for whom we should abandon common sense. Be afraid!
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