Sex in the Arab World: Shereen El Feki Talks with Tracy Quan
Or, Why the Arab Spring Desperately Needs a Summer of Love.
"If you really want to know people, start by looking in their bedrooms," says Shereen El Feki, author of the new book, Sex and the Citadel: Intimate Life in a Changing Arab World.
El Feki, who was raised in Canada and is a practicing Muslim, is the former vice chair of the U.N.'s Global Commission on HIV and Law. Born to an Egyptian father and Welsh mother, she was motivated by September 11th to seek a better understanding of her Arab and Islamic heritage.
El Feki found that demonstrators for political freedom in Tahrir Square during the 2011 Egyptian Revolution had little interest in also promoting sexual freedom. That's because most Arabs derive their sexual mores from their religious beliefs. The only way to bring more sexual freedom to the Arab world, she argues, is through Islam, which was far more tolerant of the needs of the flesh a thousand years ago than it is today.
On March 13, 2013, El Feki joined novelist and former sex worker Tracy Quan for "Sex and the Citadel: Does the Arab Spring need a Summer of Love?," an event hosted by the Reason Foundation at New York City's Museum of Sex.
In an hour-long conversation, El Feki and Quan discuss why political freedom won't necessarily lead to sexual freedom (4:30); why the rise of Islamism could lead to more sexual freedom (6:00); the Egyptian phenomenon of "summer marriage," in which wealthy travelers from the Gulf states enter into temporary marriages with prostitutes as a way to get around Islam's ban on sex out of wedlock (11:00); a Medieval Arabic dictionary called "The Language of Fucking," which had over 1,000 verbs for having sex (13:30); the rise of gay rights activist groups in the face of the Arab world's brutal homophobia (26:00); the sad state of sex education in the Arab world (33:30); the sexual frustrations of married Arab women (36:30); why women are the primary advocates for female genital mutilation in Egypt (42:00); why virginity is still "a big fucking deal" in the Arab world, leading some prostitutes to perform anal sex exclusively as a way of preserving their hymens (44:30); how attitudes about sex in the Arab world will eventually change by "pulling down the citadel from the inside" (49:00); and the still-common view that masturbation will lead to blindness, deformation, insanity, and hell (1:06:00).
About 1 hour and 10 minutes.
Shot by Jim Epstein and Naomi Brockwell, and edited by Epstein.
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sexual frustrations of married Arab women
http://www.theonion.com/articl.....and,29627/
the still-common view that masturbation will lead to blindness, deformation, insanity, and hell
Thus explaining modern Middle Eastern politics.
I made it 47 seconds into the video and then realized it was going to be women talking and came to my senses. No offense.
OT: I don't know whether this article has been talked about but it is ... interesting. http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ml?hpid=z2
Wow, the comments are shit. But what do you expect? Leftwing racists flock to leftwing newspapers.
Um, Virginia Tech?
Shhhhhhhhh! We're trying to have an adult discussion about gun violence, here.
You mean I can't talk about One Goh, who shot up Oikos University? Or that eco-terrorist, James Jay Lee, who held three people hostage during his siege of the Discovery Network's corporate headquarters?
And it's kind of racist not to count gang violence on school campuses in the whole "school shooting" thang. Blacks and Hispanics want to get in on that fad too!
After you stole twerking from us, it's only fair.
There is also Byran Koji Uyesugi, responsible for Hawaii's worst mass shooting.
Immigrant mass murder syndrome?
It's that guy!
I always found it amusing that they would name their site after Virginia Dare, who, after the fall of Roanoke, was most likely assimilated into a local Native American tribe and pumped out a gazillion biracial children.
She was also an immigrant.
Well the child of an immigrant. So she was an anchor baby.
It doesn't count when you are the child of armed colonists who took land from Brown people by force.
Because might makes right.
Brown people?
What color term would you use to describe the complexion of very-early post-Colombian-contact American Indians?
He just got through calling black people retarded, HM. I don't think you're going to show him the error of his ways.
I think by revealing the truth about blessed Virginia Dare's adult career as the star of the White Squaw War-Party Gang-Fuckers series, I must have sent him over the edge.
Red
I think Reddish-Brown is more accurate. Like a Sienna or a Mahogany depending on the particular population.
Native Americans didn't all look the same from tribe to tribe. If you're going to consider Mexican Indians brown, then you have to say the same for the natives of the SW USA, as they looked more similar to Mexican natives than natives of say, the Northeast. I know we're talking about North Carolina in this case, just making a general point
What color term would you use to describe the complexion of very-early post-Colombian-contact American Indians?
Beige? Course, that's everybody except albinos.
One of my roommates in college married a girl named Dare (who was actually quite the babe). She always claimed she was named because she was a descendant of Virginia Dare.
At their wedding reception in 1982, one of our fraternity brothers was so drunk he fell through the country club's huge picture window overlooking the first tee. None of us ever heard from the guy who married Dare again. It's now been over 30 years.
And DC sniper.
Good info on gun laws/costs by state.
5000+ comments (who knows how many there really are) already.
No wonder the bankers run the world.
That may be the dumbest article I've read all week.
How many false premises can one pack into a single piece?
Nidal Hasan is a white man?
According to the US Census, yes, Middle Easterners, Persians, Turks, etc. are "White". Hasan is Palestinian.
He's as white as George Zimmerman!
How the fuck do they get away with calling Nidal Hassan a white guy?
He's evil therefor he's white.
So it's the Zimmerman Effect being employed retroactively?
Meh, makes sense.
So are Jews "brown people"?
Some are. Depends on how much sun they get.
Middle Easterners are Caucasian, and some could pass as European (probably not Northern Euro, but still)
A lot of Lebanese certainly could.
As well as a good percentage of Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, and non-Bedouin Jordanians.
Danny Thomas sure pulled it off.
As well as many lesbians.
How about the Atlanta child murders?
These sociologists don't know jack.
The only way to bring more sexual freedom to the Arab world, she argues, is through Islam, which was far more tolerant of the needs of the flesh a thousand years ago than it is today.
Of course abandoning their ridiculous superstition is not an option like much of the West has done.
Letting women drive and show some tits may help as well.
Didn't American claim one time that the Muslim world had the most civilized norms about sex and gender?
He did. His exact quote was
http://reason.com/blog/2013/02.....nt_3580824
If you value that above all else, then it's a defensible opinion. Of course the issue is that we have no way of knowing how many Muslim Middle Eastern girls are chaste because they have made the decision to value that over promiscuity, and how many are just scared to death of being murdered by their brothers or father to preserve the family's honor.
To insecure shitbags like American, that's a feature, not a bug.
"If you value that above all else, then it's a defensible opinion."
The fact that he values chastity over all the terrible aspects of Middle Eastern culture regarding sex and gender is not defensible, however.
Does anyone know what was meant by, "...has civilized viewpoints toward sex been preserved."
What is a civilized viewpoint, it sound like the opposite of having sex with whomever you want?
Black Entertainment Television founder Robert Johnson: "This country would never tolerate white unemployment at 14 and 15 percent."
Amen brother, amen. I've been wondering for a long time when someone was finally going to have the courage to say this. The liberals who control this country have been doing a number on your people with their policies for over forty years now.
He is probably arguing for more government intervention. And you fell for it.
Where did Mike M say he necessarily agreed with the guy's policy prescriptions?
He is probably arguing for more government intervention. And you fell for it.
This is where you, yet again, prove yourself to be a Leftard. You can't conceive that your stupid leaders promote government which might hurt employment so you assume expansion is the only option.
He was arguing for government to get the fuck out of the way, something you clearly do not understand.
"novelist and former sex worker Tracy Quan"
Thus giving a new meaning to the term "pen-prostitute."
Do novelists always describe their previous jobs?
"Novelist and former barista Tracy Quan."
"Novelist and former assembly-line worker Tracy Quan."
"Novelist and former accountant Tracy Quan."
The only reason she has a job writing is because she wrote about being an escort.
I, for one, wouldn't mind her coming out of retirement....if you know what I mean and I think you do, guv'nah...
Say no more, say no more!
"Do novelists always describe their previous jobs?"
It has to be something edgy or appropriately "victimy" so you can get on Oprah. Former sex worker, former gang member, former drug addict all work. It shows, yes I'm book smart because I wrote one and I'm also street smart and cool because I used to be poor. Former honors student wouldn't work. Former choir boy might work depending on what you were writing about.
I speculate that Quan's schtick is not victimhood, but that she's hot enough to be an escort, providing a certain *frisson* when talking about sex.
But really, I don't see what's so sexy about escorts, especially the one on the left:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/biodork/5647288460/
I was looking at the photoset you linked to. It was a pro-choice rally. There were men at the rally. Seriously, what man would go to a pro-choice rally?
Great place to get laid easy. Find some old hippie guy and ask him the real reason he protested the Vietnam war.
I don't know. All I see are a bunch of uggo's.
Men who want to hook up with women with a history of making bad choices? Just a guess.
It looks like most of the bad choices these chicks make are what clothes to wear, what hairstyle to wear, and what to eat. Pass.
Being a former sex worker doesn't mean you were poor. Plenty of sex workers make a good amount of money.
They aren't all street walkers.
The Great Regulator Block Yomomma and his little minions at the E.P.A., apparently still not satisfied with gas prices already near record highs, wants to impose even higher emissions standards and more regulations on the industry! These people are such crazed, evil motherfuckers.
Strangely on topic, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs have a new video out, "Sacrilege." Although UK ginger model Lily Cole is objectively attractive here, I always find her face strangely creepy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....mRI3Ew4BvA
I saw them open for Sonic Youth at McCaren Park Pool (everybody is jumping around in this empty pool) years ago. Pretty epic show.
That was... interesting? Kind of a cheap cinematic device for the video, though. The song was good up till the gospel ending.
Yeah, I liked it better when it was called "Like a Prayer"
Love red heads, she's definitely sexy. Song wasn't bad but the whole Christian Hypocrisy theme gets boring after a while. I mean 30 years ago that video would have been cutting edge but now it's just kinda boring and lame. I'm not sure what's next in the whole teen angst we rebel against traditional values thing but it needs to at least be original.
When you've lost the H&R commenters...
It's the large forehead combined with the large eyes and tiny mouth. Makes her look vaguely alien.
I made it through four minutes.
But when the criminals and leaders are white men, race and gender become the elephant in the room.
Well, spluuh.
"Jerry Bag"
Jerry was a slang term for the Nazis.
Bag is a slang synonym for scrotum.
That's about right. You should definitely stick with it.
virginity is still "a big fucking deal" in the Arab world, leading some prostitutes to perform anal sex exclusively as a way of preserving their hymens
Fake hymens, made from bacon.
It could work!
virginity is still "a big fucking deal" in the Arab world, leading some prostitutes to perform anal sex exclusively as a way of preserving their hymens
Santorum just can't stay out of this conversation.
Please, I'm trying to eat here.
Bird's Smokehouse BBQ?
Unfortunately no. Too far from college. Left-over pizza.
Did you ever get any of their food?
I'll be in Indy on April 20/21. I'm going to make that a little field trip. Can't wait.
Well, that's one way to make a dude go down.
You know they actually make bacon flavored lube:)
I thought of this.
That looks awesome. I'll have to try that. I've done the bacon wrapped scallops but you have pre-cook the bacon to just the right level so you get crispy bacon without overcooking the scallops.
Who's excited about the games today? The Buckeyes better win. I don't want to walk out of that stadium disappointed.
O-H...
Michigan fucked my bracket some more. Fuck them. Fuck Michigan.
and I O
I-O as well. Yeah, I had Kansas beating them in my bracket as well. But as much as I hate seeing a Michigan victory, I'd much rather play them in a National Championship game if we get there than Kansas. After watching Kansas play, I'm not sure how the Bucks would match up against their style play.
Yeah I'm sure if both of them get to the Final Four, the fix will be phoned in. It would be a great storyline.
You sound like John with his "Ohio State games are fixed" shtick.
But I know you mean it in a different way. Besides, if they both get to the final four, it'll most likely be 2 Big Ten teams and two Big East teams (or it'll be two Big Ten, a Big East team and fucking Duke). The refs won't know what to do!
Obviously ensure that Duke wins. Duh.
Fuck Duke. I mean, I don't really have a problem with preppy assholes in general, anymore so then I do with any group of people, but Duke is the douchebag capital of the world.
I second the "Fuck Duke" proposal
Michigan will get destroyed by the Gators
An OSU vs Florida rematch would be a good storyline as well.
"I don't want to walk out of that stadium disappointed."
Represent!
And yeah, I'm totally jealous.
I'm better than you, ch 6726
The first summer I ever earned any money, I started reading the utilitarian philosopher Peter Singer, who had a few ideas about how I should spend it. To Mr. Singer, since it is cheap to save lives in the third world, we are culpable if we have the cash and don't help save them. "If you would save a child from drowning in a pond, even if it meant ruining your expensive shoes," he wrote, "then shouldn't you also save a child from drowning in poverty, for the cost of your expensive shoes?"
You can imagine where it goes from there. And, no, she doesn't fix the cable.
One wonders if Ms. Friedell deemed it necessary to follow Prof. Singer's other ideas, like having sex with animals or euthanizing the mentally retarded and physically disabled.
like having sex with animals
She had to earn that money somehow.
When I was in high school I saw this video of some woman doing a dog and also a horse. It was quite sad actually.
Your school had a strange biology curriculum, JB.
I'm Amish. jk:)
"If you really want to know people, start by looking in their bedrooms," says Shereen El Feki, author of the new book, Sex and the Citadel: Intimate Life in a Changing Arab World.
I'd rather leave them alone and get to know them when they choose to tell me about themselves.
Pussy!
A couple of days ago a retired PA State Trooper shot his estranged wife in Clearfield County, PA. While looking around the CDT, I was not surprised to find out why he was estranged from his wife (he assaulted her), I was surprised to see he was charged with the assault and the DA opposed his release on bail. Reverse nut-punch or was the DA cynically trying to make an example of the retired trooper to keep the mask from slipping?
The "reverse nut-punch" is properly referred to as "scrotal massage".
I learn something new every day. Thanks!
I'll see your scrotal massage and raise you a kick in the balls.
Ugh. Don't remind me.
No double standard. Not at all.
/sarc
Well, the way the paper describes it sounds to me like they were being extra careful in dotting their "i"s and crossing their "t"s to make sure what they had would stick.
Notice he is actually being charged with the felonies, and they're having a different attorney's office head the prosecution.
Well, this particular cop beat a "killing-a-dog-in-cold-blood in front of his two children" rap, so he figured running down two "civilian" brats was no thing.
I always knew arab chicks were sluts. no wonder the men put bags on them.
my friend's mom makes $84 hourly on the laptop. She has been laid off for seven months but last month her payment was $16267 just working on the laptop for a few hours. Read more on this web site and go to home tab for more detail http://www.JUMP30.com
"Laptop". "Laid off". "Her payment". You're really bad at streetwalker code, aren't you?
What's with all these American clone trolls lately?
Goddamn you fuckers.
I stayed away from this thread, because I assumed, with all the comments that it would be another basketball circle jerk. But I missed out on all this wonderful arguing.
Did someone delete another troll? Seems to be comments missing.
Dey jus' playa hatin' 'cause troll's a pimp.
I know because he spends time on the manosphere.
Fucking Shockers.
Fuck.
Who gave you a shocker?
Jesus man, that's why you need to move to a state that respects self-defense.
Hey sloop, I can win if Florida goes all the way and a) Duke beats Louisville or b) Wichita beats Louisville (hah!).
Down with Louisville! Go Duke!
No one to blame but ourselves. they were assaulting us every time we took it to the inside. if we would have started exploiting that half way through the first half instead of halfway through the second their whole team would have fouled out with ten minutes left. Instead we kept trying to force the hot hand on the perimeter.
The hot one is NOT the Arab. Very misleading.
"El Feki found that demonstrators for political freedom in Tahrir Square during the 2011 Egyptian Revolution had little interest in also promoting sexual freedom."
Or any other kind of Freedom for that matter. Because, like the Socialist/Communist revolutions, the Arab Spring wasn't about reform or freedom, it was about installing someone who would enforce mob stupidity with a more solid iron fist.
Meet the new Mullah, same as the old Mullah.
til I saw the bank draft ov $6092, I did not believe that my friend had been truley erning money parttime from there labtop.. there mums best friend has done this for less than ten months and as of now repaid the dept on there home and bourt a great new Ariel Atom. this is where I went, and go to home tab for more detail--- http://goo.gl/XjdQI
They note that "political freedom won't necessarily lead to sexual freedom" in the Arab world. True enough, no doubt.
Also a nice symmetry with the Leftist position, which seems to be about sexual freedom without political freedom. Let the people shag whoever, wherever, whatever, whenever, and how ever they want, and they should just stop worrying about all the other rights that are gradually being eroded.
It's kind of amazing that el-Feki goes for a whole hour while barely touching on the epidemic of pederasty and the "women are for babies, men are for pleasure" behavioral norm in the Middle East, from Afghanistan through Iran and then the Arab world. Also, I have to wonder whether el-Feki not only has abandoned the faith of her Welsh mother, but the Welsh language too, and whether she pays any attention to the language of her Egyptian ancestors, Coptic. With its singular emphasis on Arabic, long-term most interpretations of Islam cannot but destroy linguistic & cultural diversity.
Wow, these comments are off the wall. I wonder how many years this author spent living in Egypt. I lived there for 4 years, taught coed classes in a university and could have written more about these women and sex than I've seen in the summary of the reviews and the comments..most of which are irrelevant to the article.
It explains something to say the author is of Coptic background...they are no easy crew, with their rule that you have to be separated for 40 years to get a divorce, and of course, they are utterly hostile to the Muslims. Generalities will get you very little understanding in the Egypt. This may be what the reader (and author) prefers...not to have their preconceived notions altered.
around the country to gauge the state
Thank you very much
sex worker Tracy Quan for "Sex and the Citadel: Does the Arab Spring need a Summer of Love?
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Well, liberals support the Drug War, the Federal Reserve, the regulatory state, the War on Poverty, and Keynesianism, so they have certainly contributed mightily to the current state of the black community.
It's that guy!
Sorry, I'm not interested in marrying your mother. Look for a new dad elsewhere.
So that is what I am?
http://www.urbandictionary.com.....osmotarian
Little wonder you paleotarians hate me.
Yes. I married a slut too.
Anybody who has paid the whole way on a date, had sex with the woman at the end of the date, and then married her, has married a prostitute. 🙂
Oh, and liberals are against school choice. Got to keep them locked into their shitty failing schools.
The Drug War is definitely a bipartisan fail, but the collapsed public education system and the disastrous welfare and family policies belong entirely to the liberals. And that rare honest liberal Daniel Patrick Moynihan accurately predicted to a T what the horrible result of his compatriots' disastrous new policies would be before they were even put into place.
We cosmotarians hate you too. Because you're a progressive.
Actually they're called yokeltarians, not paleotarians. And no you are not a cosmotarian, just a shrieking monkey.
Yes. I married a slut too.
That's a shitty thing to call t o n y!
Paint chips?
Blacks commit the vast majority of homicides in this country because the Drug War exists.
End the Drug War, watch crime rate drop, watch Jerry Bag desperately search for another statistic to support his racism.
Republicans are equally complicit for the welfare state, they are just less vocal about it nowadays.
The drug war is bipartisan but the progressive Democrats have lead the way on initiation and escalation at every turn.
You're a fucking idiot. I am opposed to all entitlement programs (esp SS/Medicare) and am opposed to Affirmative Discrimination.
I do support a central bank though. If that makes me a progressive then so be it.
Cosmotarians are free market progtard hipster-wannabees.
"We cosmotarians hate you too. Because you're a progressive." True dat.
But you suck Obama's cock.
And you're a liberal on everything.
And you're a shrieking monkey.
"I am opposed to all entitlement programs (esp SS/Medicare) and am opposed to Affirmative Discrimination."
No you're not. That's just how you try and wrestle some credibility around here. You never comment on the countless threads about those, only the threads about homeschooling or condoms.
Because you defend Dear Leader on everything, and constantly engage in tu quoque arguments to deflect criticism from him.
Dipshit,
People hate you on sight so they don't waste time finding out that you deserve to be hated.
Fuck you Shreeeek. You are about as close to being libertarian from the left as Dick Cheney is from the right.
Your stupidity is only rivaled by your lack of self awareness.
By destroying economic opportunity.
Citation needed.
Half of all the murderers in this country are involved in the illegal drug trade, and they happen to be black. They're also heterosexual, yet I don't see you asking why it is that the majority of murderers in this country are heterosexual.
Collectivist shithead.
Supplying various psychotropic chemicals for injection, inhalation, or insufflation isn't a business? Funny that it makes 321.6 billion dollars worldwide.
He also comments on gun control threads to defend Obama.
Except for Obamacare.
Bullshit. I comment on how Medicare should have $50 co-pays to cut out superfluous visits and help pay. I support freezing all entitlements and then gradually curbing them annually.
Why? You listen to your mommy don't you? And she isn't even retired!
I think this is probably why you hate her, huh American?
Yeah that kind of goes for everything. The GOP are the tax collectors for the State. No matter what bullshit program the Dems come up with, they get out their pencils and start figuring out how to pay for it. Not once have they ever said "Fuck you. You wanted it, none of us voted it, you figure out how to pay for it." They just funded Obamacare. Fucking hell they're useless.
Nixon was a Democrat? Reagan was a Democrat?
Respectable publications feature warmongers, grifters, con men, thieves, and power hungry autocrats.
I'd like to believe that, but this...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jv4k.....s_Inst.gif
...leads one to believe it's a broader phenomenon.
End the Drug War, watch crime rate drop, watch Jerry Bag desperately search for another statistic to support his racism.
That would help, but the real underlying problem is the Welfare state that causes widespread fealings of helplessness and resentment.
You think Africa's culture and economic situation isn't fucked up too? This has nothing to do with race.
I had no idea Ethiopia's homicide rate was so high.
Must be all those Rastas.
Dick Cheney supported gay marriage before most pols. I'm not sure of his position on medical marijuana and food trucks but he is at least 1/3 of the way by reason standards.
Dick Cheney's closer, he did endorse SSM before it was cool.
I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with race. I will say that race is a minor factor compared to government poverty plantations and the allure of a drug trade funded escape glorified by mainstream elements of black culture.
Really, it all goes back to Booker T Washington and W.E.B. DuBois.
Bullshit. You never push any of that passionately. Revealed preference, not spoken preference.
Fuck off cockpuppet.
OOoohhh look....libertarian bona fides! I'm all a twitter.
Fuck off slaver!
I wasn't aware superfluous visits was the main problem with Medicare. Maybe it's a problem, but that would be like fixing the cup holder on a POS car. The car's a POS with a better cup holder.
So when Bayer sold Heroin, it wasn't a business?
The good ones are. Particularly the cooks who innovate after new precursor restrictions.
So is selling alcohol not a business? I mean, it's a dangerous drug!
So why is it that liquor store owners don't shoot at each other? Huh, I wonder what the difference between liquor store owners and drug dealers could be?
How the fuck do you know?
Paint chips?
Paint chips explains your thought processes.
You're not planning anything murder related are you shreeky?
ud
UD
Okay, this is complete bullshit.
Abortion being the exception. It is completely acceptable for libertarians to disagree on abortion. It depends upon whose rights you speak of (child/mother) and when one becomes a person. FINE!
But let's get something straight. ALL libertarians are "cosmotarians" by the above definition and "paleotarians" do not exist. If you are conservative on gays, drugs and other social issues, you are a REPUBLICAN.
You don't think a century of colonial rule has anything to do with it? Not to mention the fact that when they were granted independence, the vast majority of African nations chose a socialist or Communist course?
Russia has the exact same problems as Africa: Corruption, violence, high social dysfunction numbers, high levels of substance abuse, and yes, even high incidences of AIDS and TB.
You're correct. The legacy of the brutality of European colonialism is still a negative influence on the cultures of Africa, Asia, and South America.
Fuck you. I support all guns -even FandF guns.
The LP Purity Test keeps the party in the 1% range.
Fuck off sockpuppet.
Are we talking about drug dealers or cops?
Wow....you don't think there is math involved in selling drugs? You don't think treating customers with respect is a part of it?
Keep being retarded.
How does it feel, Jerry, to be wrong about everything?
Hey, guys, what have I missed lately, and who is this fucking retard?
I disagree, I think you're conflating being personally socially conservative with being politically socially conservative. Someone can be personally conservative on those issues and yet still not want the government taking action on them.
Take gay marriage, for example. If someone wants the government to get out of marriage entirely, I'd say they're libertarian even if they don't believe in gay marriage.
Or the drug war. Someone can be against drugs, even marijuana, and still think the government should end the drug war.
Not necessarily. You could feel the GOP isn't conservative enough on those issues. You could support the Constitution Party, for example. Rushdoony and company fully support a "free market" but tie it into a strict Christian theocracy.
If you are conservative on gays, drugs and other social issues, you are a REPUBLICAN.
So you are the one who administers the purity test?
Actually, at this time, there is nothing Libertarian about the expansion of government recognition of personal relationships. Since Lawrence vs. Texas there hasn't been. You shouldn't confuse "Liberty" with "fairness".
Oh, and if you do not wish to cut the military budget, you are a REPUBLICAN!! See, I can do it too.
The dividing line is that Cosmo's value equality over pretty much everything else.
Equality being a bullshit progtard value.
Not sure I get it. Agree with carving out abortion and when life begins debate. I'm socially liberal, could care less about gays, want everyone treated equally. However, you can be a libertarian, dislike gays and not 'accept' them in your own social circles, but still believe the government should be out of the opinion forcing business. The distinction seem a little forced or just not a good measure of political policy position. A little like the libtard habit of mixing of Government and Society. You can't really be libertarian and want government intervention into societal issues and personal decisions like drug use and butt sex. So you're not Paleo or Cosmo, you're some other political philosophy and not a subset of Libertarianism. You can't be against Liberty and be a Libertarian that chooses Liberty when it is in conflict with something else?
That's to F d A.
Fixed.
Meh. I see your point, but I do not fully buy into it.
Just because I'm not gay doesn't mean I don't fully support your right to be gay. Are you saying I would need to be gay to be a cosmotarian? Or that I would need to do drugs to be a cosmotarian?
Let me put it this way. If I personally was gay, but I don't smoke pot (even though I believe people have the right to do it), does that make me a cosmopaleotarian?
I interpret the above definitions to apply to what you call politically socially conservative.
Your personal viewpoints (preferences) of given issues is not what makes one a libertarian. It is whether you believe others have the right to do as they wish provided they don't infringe on others.
You can be politically socially conservative and libertarian as well. Opposing funding for fetal stem cell research, sex education, subsidized abortion, condoms in schools,grants for explicit or anti-religous "art" etc.
"You're correct. The legacy of the brutality of European colonialism is still a negative influence on the cultures of Africa, Asia, and South America."
Then why isn't India red on that map?
I'm not saying colonialism didn't take a toll, but India bounced back, while Africa/South America didn't.
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu, FdA!
This is what I was disagreeing with.
But it doesn't say that. That's one reason I think a distinction needs to be made between personal social conservatism and political social conservatism. They aren't the same thing, but just saying "social conservatism" can mean either one. It muddies the waters and creates confusions like this one.
I don't give a flying fuck about purity tests. I welcome the likes of John and Dunphy. I'd much rather have someone who agrees with me on 75% of the issues on my side than someone who agrees with 40%. Great. Would I rather 100%? You bet.
BUT, you cannot argue against homosexual rights from a libertarian perspective. If you believe a person may do as they wish, provided they do not infringe upon others, you CANNOT possibly argue it is okay to discriminate against them for practicing homosexuality.
[and yes, I agree that government shouldn't be involved in marriage at all, BUT as they are, discriminating based on the sex of the parties involved is immoral]
And I CAN argue the need for a strong military from a libertarian perspective.
Hmmm...seems I have work to do. I'm none of those things. I blame my parents.
I'm saying the opposite, that being one doesn't mean being the other. Not agreeing with gay sex/marriage, drugs, doesn't mean you want government intervention on those issues.
That's my entire point. "Social conservative" isn't necessarily a political point of view, and that's why the term is so confusing. The catch all "conservative" is even more vague, and I don't find that term or "social conservative" to be very descriptive because they can refer to multiple different things.
I think our disagreement primarily arose from different understanding of what "conservative" means. The definition specifically mentions "personal" feelings of conservatism, but you saw "conservative" and thought "political". I saw it and your response and thought you were saying someone can't be "personally" conservative and still be a libertarian, which I was disagreeing with. So it's all borne from the confusion of multiple definitions of "conservative". That's why I say a distinction needs to be made.
You are correct darius, it DOESN'T say that. (And I was going to point that out in my last post, but omitted it for brevity) But the only way it makes sense is if that's what it means. Otherwise I would need to be gay and smoke pot in order to be a cosmo rather than just believing it is okay for others to be gay and smoke pot.
*WHEW* What a mess. To sum up. "Conservative" is terribly vague, being used to refer to all sorts of things, some of which are political, and some of which aren't. Even "social conservative" can refer to multiple ideas, and that's where these arguments came from.
Stupid vague words. This is why communicating is so hard. If what person #1 means isn't what person #2 hears, people can argue over nonexistent differences.
Most libertarian objections to SSM are not because libertarians discriminate against gays; rather, the fear is that legal recognition of SSM in a Civil Rights fashion will violate freedom of association, and open churches and others to lawsuits if they refuse to marry gays.
The optimal solution is, of course, to end state recognition of "marriage", which is discriminatory towards single people such as myself. If people want to enter into a civil union, fine. I don't think spouses should be compelled into incriminating one another in court. Their lives are too enmeshed; it turns every spouse into a de facto state spy.
No, it's referring entirely to personal feelings of conservatism, differentiating them from political desires to use government on their behalf.
No, you would just need to be OK with those activities to be a cosmotarian. Participation in those activities isn't necessary to feel they're alright. If you WEREN'T ok with those on a personal level, but still didn't want government intervention to stamp them out, you would qualify under those definitions as a paleotarian.
I missed the electric car troll/shill on Friday:(
"Hey, guys, what have I missed lately, and who is this fucking retard?"
Nobody. Respond accordingly.
Conservative is a terrible word because all it technically means is 'pro status quo.' But supposed liberals and progressives are actually more in favor of the status quo than conservatives are.
The real conservatives are progressives. Hell, given their anti-property beliefs and love of big government, you could actually consider progressives to be arch-reactionaries since they're basically trying to go back to a time before the Enlightenment.
"The sedative for coughs"
No, but a good deal of the negative aspects of black culture are the fault of white oppression of blacks for basically 200 years.
One of the most damaging aspects of modern inner cities is the way that many blacks don't want to do well in school, and actually bully people who do well in school, because they think success in school makes you 'too white.' It's an absurd belief that does immense damage to black people, but it's a belief that came about out of black hatred of whites because of oppression, both real and perceived.
The situation is a bit more complex than you're making it out to be.
It's even worse than that Irish. "Conservative" can refer to fiscal attitudes toward government spending and largess, and can even refer to nonpolitical attitudes toward spending money.
This is why I maintain that many of today's progressives and left-liberals are socially conservative. They're just a different KIND of conservative. They have their own set of "traditional" outlooks and desires to hold a different set of things static.
Yep. On each of those issues, strong libertarian arguments can be made. They happen to overlap with views of socons, but the conclusion is, in general, derived differently.
They cannot for be made for drug prohibition and prohibiting homosexuality.
*BARF*
Oh Barfman, where are you when we need you!?
*barf*
Well England left India with a Westminister system. Most of the nations of Africa were just dumped on their own, with no civic education or building of institutions.
Personally I think the fact that so many African nations went outright Communist after independence has a lot more to do with their shittiness then race does. As I mentioned previously, Russia and the former SovBloc countries look a lot more like Africa then they do Western Europe.
As far as colonies went, the Raj made out pretty well, actually.
Well, the Welsh are only one step above the Irish, after all.
One of the most damaging aspects of modern inner cities is the way that many blacks don't want to do well in school, and actually bully people who do well in school, because they think success in school makes you 'too white.' It's an absurd belief that does immense damage to black people, but it's a belief that came about out of black hatred of whites because of oppression, both real and perceived.
It's more a function of the welfare state that precludes marginal improvement in their situation from personal effort.
+1
I actually lol at that one.
85 mean IQ? I don't think we need retarded scientists. We have Dawkins already.
They're only lowlifes because of the artificial restriction on drugs.
Question for you, "Jerry:" Have you even met a single drug dealer? Then how can you possibly determine that they are "lowlifes?"
Shut the fuck up retard.
"Paleotarians" or yokeltarians are just idiots who waste time complaining about KULTUR WAR!!1 bullshit that has nothing to do with libertarianism.
"Cosmotarian" is what you get called when you point out to yokeltarians that their KULTUR WAR!!1 bullshit is a waste of time and has nothing to do with libertarianism. Basically, if you ignore the KULTUR WAR!!1 you are a cosmo.
SoCons are calling for an end to drug prohibition. See Pat Robertson and others. Drug prohibition is progressive, not "socially conservative".
You ought to sue Brandeis for that shitty education you got, retard.
Then explain what a cosmo is. Basically, anyone not exactly like you is a cosmotarian. That's essentially the definition.
It's an undefinable insult people use because they're too dumb to come up with an insult that actually describes their opponent.
You know, sort of like how you call everyone a 'retard' without ever bothering to refute their point.
Liquor store owners are white, obviously.
This. There may be people who use the term "cosmotarian" according the definition FdA cited, but anyone I've seen here who uses that seriously just uses it as a synonym for "progressive" in disguise/denial, which certainly doesn't define anyone I've heard it applied to.
Following use of the word is usually a lot of poor guessing about a person's background or beliefs in order to "support" the idea that the person is a "cosmotarian" (progressive-in-disguise/denial).
In general there are two or three types of people here, so even the definition of libertarian is squishy.
Here is how I see it. You can have a libertarian philosophy OR you can hold libertarian beliefs. Those who simply hold beliefs are not what I'd call a "true" libertarian.
If you by and large start at the NAP and can argue your position based upon that, that is a true libertarian.
One can hold libertarian beliefs even though the logic stems from some other philosophy or set of principles. For instance believing in free markets can be derived by utilitarians.
The position on the issue is the same, but it was arrived at differently.
I would prefer a world full of principled libertarians, but I will not tell those that have a preponderance libertarian beliefs they can't come to the meetings just because they didn't get there like I did.
But some people have the balls to try to criticize others for not engaging in their preferred KULTUR WAR!!1 bullshit. That crosses the line.
SIV, you're full of shit. Sure Robertson may call for it, but the vast majority of self-identified social conservatives support the WOD, even for marijuana. And while many progressives do support the WOD (or at least against a certain drugs) and you can definitely justify it on progressive grounds (theoretically, I'm not saying it's actually justified), liberals are generally more supportive of ending all or parts of the WOD. For example, a majority of liberals support marijuana legalization (though most Dem pols do not). The only two states to legalize it are both left-of-center
Oh, they still deserve to take shit for their unlibertarian views. But they can still come to the meetings.
They just can't come in the clubhouse, is all. They've got statist cooties.
Liquor store owners are white Korean, obviously.
There are also self-identified libertarians that support non-libertarian things. One of my neighbors and a friend (who I've successfully proselytized and converted from conservative to libertarian) still thinks blowing up Americans in far-away countries is OK if they act like treasonous assholes.
Plenty of so-called SoCons are actually NeoCons who want to use the full muscle of the state to enforce their vision of a morally perfect nation. A true-blue SoCon is generally opposed to government action outside of it's proper scope. They can still abhor drug use and users, but they don't want to use the government to enforce their views.
Race and society are not the same, I see the words co-mingled. Modern American black society, which is heavily influenced by the drug war and the welfare state has issues that may not be related to the drug war. But how would we know what african american culture would be without these two negative government influences. Artsy, stronger family value, lauding eduction? I'd be nice to see what black american culture would be like if freed from government, at last. But the toughest bondage to break is that of dependence. As any parent with a co-dependent child (assuming they were self aware enough to recognize it).
I have wondered why the drug war has impacted blacks more than other races, statistically, they are more involved. Do we have a clue why?
Point: Counterpoint.
Our entitlements don't do enough to help the disenfranchised.
/libtard