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Free Minds & Free Markets

Mormons Not Ablaze With Today's Scouting

The Church says it isn't about the gays. Don't you believe it.

The Mormon Church has announced 185,000 of its Boy Scouts ages 14 to 18 in the U.S. and Canada will leave to start their own program beginning January 1, 2018.

The church made clear the move was definitely not because of gays. (Spoiler alert: It's because of gays). Rumors of a rift between the Mormon Church and the Boy Scouts circulated when the B.S.A. decided to admit transgender boys into the program and publicly considered admitting girls. The Mormon church responded in a statement, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Ewwww, Icky! Cooties!"

This split represents a cultural cleaving. Social progress is being recognized by even some of the most beloved, conservative stalwarts. The Boy Scouts is an institution more wholesome and more American than a Norman Rockwell painting of a puppy saluting an American flag. And when the Boy Scouts don't give a damn about that puppy's sexual orientation, we know we're making progress as a society.

Embracing social equality for an institution like the Boy Scouts comes at a cost. The B.S.A. isn't appealing much to its base or racking up "likes" in the social media echo chamber. For standing up to the troglodytes, I hereby award the Scouts my Honey Badger badge because they just don't give a damn.

The Mormon Church, on the other hand, has taken a partisan stance, forgetting the prime objective of Boy Scouts. No, not being prepared, loyal, trustworthy or helpful. The duty of every scout is to wantonly light shit on fire. Gay or straight, transgender or cis, all boy scouts are united in their pyromania.

The Mormon Church claims to have severed its century-old relationship with the Boy Scouts because young men "are not being served well by the Varsity or Venturing programs, which have historically been difficult to implement within the Church."

Oh, for sure. The Church is only now getting around to this historical difficulty just when the Boy Scouts formally admit gay troop leaders and transgender boys. I wonder why this difficulty only seems to affect their teenage boys. The answer, I believe, rhymes with shmomophobia.

The Church recognizes its anti-gay stance is not socially acceptable in this day and age, but not savvy enough to realize genitalia preference has absolutely no bearing on moral character.

Here are a few of my predictions for breaking news headlines in the aftermath of the Mormon Church severing ties with the Boy Scouts:

  • Church of Scientology Cuts Ties with Secret Squid Scouts of Planet Xavier.

  • Catholic Church Enthusiastically Takes Up Partnership with Boy Scouts.
  • Mormon Church Launches "The Totally Not Gay All Men Group for Men who Like Camping Alone with Men Scouts."

Scout Law tells me "to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." While the Mormon Church hangs itself up on the whole "straight" part, the Boy Scouts looks positively and officially mentally woke.

Why should I care? I was a member of the Boy Scouts of America. I was a Venture Scout and I served on my town's Boy Scout Council. I marched in parades, received my gold award and pulled off a neckerchief like nobody's business.

One day a long time from now, I hope to watch my trans-robot, bi-curious son receive his Eagle Scout award. I know that Ze will carry the torch of generations of scouts who came before, using it to enthusiastically light all kinds of shit on fire.

Photo Credit: x-ray delta one/Foter.com

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  • The Iconoclast||

    But they get to if they want to, right? Free association and all that.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Can't have free association rights when they are racist, GBLT hating, bigots.

    That reminded about what they are going to do to the Cub Scouts. Force grown men and women to be allowed into the cub scouts because...inclusion.

  • Rat on a train||

    All rights are contigent on you exercising them for the good of the people.
    I thought Mormonism was an icky religion like Baptists. I would think progs would cheer their departure.

  • Chipper Morning, Now #1||

    I am sorry, is the author calling for a government crackdown on Mormons? No. He is just pointing out they are a little behind the times. Hell, they only started allowing black people in the 70s.

  • Mark22||

    Wanting single sex education is not "behind the times".

  • Rhywun||

    Hell, wanting single-race education is all the rage now too.

  • Teri Moto||

    I think you just misgendered the author. Xer may have some very strong words about that, you bigot.

  • jaydubyou||

    Every time I read the "word" "xe" or "xer," I pronounce it as "it."

    Is that wrong?

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Anytime I hear nonsense nomenclature like that used in a serious context, I note to myself that the speaker/writer is a subversive/idiot/progtard and should be in no way taken seriously.

  • Radioactive||

    I mentally translate Xer into "Flaming Douchebag of Doom"...but that's just me

  • Teri Moto||

    You mean that's not the standard dictionary definition of "xer"? If not, it should be.

  • Chip Your Pets||

    Sort of like the Boy Scouts weren't calling for a government crackdown on gays or trannies, just running their organization as they saw fit until the leftists (now including Reason apparently) continuously sued them into submission?

  • Tony||

    They're still running the organization as they see fit. Maybe not as you see fit.

  • Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz||

    Falsification on "allowing black people in the 70s" You are trying to rewrite history for the Mormons. Blacks have never been banned from membership in the Mormon Church. The only change in the 70s was to ordain blacks to the Mormon Preisthood. This is different than blatantly saying they weren't allowed. If you are going to try to state something factual at least get your facts correct.

  • Radioactive||

    shit, you know what happens when the facts don't fit the narrative...

  • ||

    Joseph Smith the Churches founder ordained black men to the priesthood. So why did the church not follow his example. We are all a product of our times. Joseph was ahead of his.

  • ThomasD||

    "What's wrong with Nazis?"

    Libertarian ProTip Hint for the Categorically Stupid: It's not the free association.

    But, way to go the Full Godwin! We knew you had it in you.

  • BearOdinson||

    I hate Illinois Nazis!

  • loveconstitution1789||

    "B.S.A. decided to admit transgender boys into the program and publicly considered admitting girls."
    Its called the Boy scouts. The girl scouts have a group for... girls.
    Hey, words don't mean anything.

    If you want boys and girls in the same group you could call them "scouts".

  • Longtobefree||

    Please get with the program - person scouts.
    If you just call them scouts, the whole change the language for political reasons thing goes away. We need a constant reminder that any word ending in a three character string that designates maleness is by definition an evil oppression of everything good and progressive. Like "-man", or '-son" oops!

  • Stormy Dragon||

    Are you incensed that the YMCA allows elderly non-Christian women to swim in their pool too?

  • BearOdinson||

    The Boy Scouts can do whatever the hell they want. And so can Mormons. Simple.

  • jaydubyou||

    Now THAT was funny. Thanks for the smile you gave me!

  • Radioactive||

    some of them are pretty hot, so it's cool

  • Mudhen||

    I believe in most of the World Scouting is co-ed. In the US Girl Scouting has pretty much been run into the ground by its parent organization (they have serious financial issues.) I think you'd find, given the choice most girls today would rather join the boy scouts rather than the girl scouts. I would guess that it will happen in the next ten years.

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    1 Yes: Scouting is co-ed in most of the world.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • BYODB||

    Both organizations are pointless wastes of time outside of socializing kids. I have a feeling that if parents knew what goes on at Boy Scout camp they wouldn't be as eager to send their girls there. It's also ludicrous that transgender children is even a thing, but whatever.

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    2 Yes: lots of scouting if fucked up. Lots of Marines and sewing bees and prom dates and plumbing designs are fucked up...proves nothing. I know a few hundred guys who learned a ton about management from scouting, but I've been parts of successful units.

    1 Yes: Scouting is co-ed in most of the world.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • Scarecrow Repair & Chippering||

    I see the thrust of this argument. The Catholics want Mormon Boy Scouts because they are forbidden fruit doubly so, and the Mormons figure if four wives is good, zero wives is a sign of nefarious trouble.

    Which one sells better popcorn? Probably the Hebrews. Is it kosher popcorn?

  • Jimothy||

    The Mormons say it's not about the gays, but Siskind knows is about the gays. But she (ze? Did I just assume this former Boy Scout's gender?) also says it's about the transgenders. And the girls. Oh, wait, no, she's sure it's about the gays.

    Look, I'm not saying we should take the Mormons' at their word, but I'm also not going to take Siskind at her word.

  • notJoe||

    Venture scouting is co-ed.

  • ||

    And, IMO, inferior to explicit commercial alternatives that don't make/draw such idiotic and trivial distinctions.

    This is the part that irritates the shit out of me. There are plenty of for-fee organizations and events that have a general "As long as you get along and register as a group, we don't care." policy. Scouts, despite being exceedingly reliant on volunteers, feels the need to (further) paternalize (You *will* get along as a group whether you like it or not!) rather than support their volunteers. Moreover, the SJW-y paternalization indirectly encroaches on the other organizations' ability to host/support events. Scouts wanting to enforce transgender acceptance sucks but, it's the scouts. Worse, IMO, is that if you want to host the scouts, you effectively have to sign on to the agenda (that the pack, volunteers, scouts, etc., may not even themselves hold).

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    3 No: BSA National does not effectively manage local units. Indeed, Councils can enforce whatever policies they wish Further, each chartering organization OWNS their program (BSA is exactly the opposite of GSA in this regard). Most units, even in conforming Councils, misbehave and misapply policy widely and constantly.

    2 Yes: lots of scouting if fucked up. Lots of Marines and sewing bees and prom dates and plumbing designs are fucked up...proves nothing. I know a few hundred guys who learned a ton about management from scouting, but I've been parts of successful units.

    1 Yes: Scouting is co-ed in most of the world.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • tomoehler||

    Aren't we supposed to be libertarians? If they want to start a new group it's none of our business.

  • Timrekgrun||

    I thought that too, but then I remembered that the BSA get to use lots of publica;lay paid for facilities for free along with many other government subsidized perks and so I realized it kinda is our business.

  • ||

    Yeah but BSA didn't kick them out, they left on their own. It's just a shame.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    How would you know? You're pretty much a communist, right? So you have no real concept of right and wrong, just a desire to endpsalve humanity to the state and clearly rush individual rights, right comrade?

  • NebulousFocus||

    Yeah, this kind of snarky, "look at those backwards rubes", bullshit belongs on huffpost. Who gives a shit what the Mormons do?
    What the fuck happened to Reason?

  • BYODB||

    They believe in free minds and free markets, unless you're against x y or z special interest groups.

    Most Reason writers are social justice warriors when it comes to the State legislating morality for narrow interest groups, they just try and hide it a bit more than places like HuffPo. Obviously not all of them, but perhaps a plurality.

  • Longtobefree||

    What a magnificent Christophobic rant.

  • Mark22||

    "Spoiler alert: It's because of gays"

    Maybe you think that "gays" and transgendered are pretty much interchangeable, but that's just a reflection of your ignorance and prejudice.

  • Azathoth!!||

    Wow! What great Social Justice content!!!!!!!11111!!

    So much better than Slate!!!!

    Reason is a great talking point source!!!!!

  • Tony||

    Don't you recall that Milo guy, and let's not forget Breitbart bestie Matt Drudge. This is the Trump era--gays are no longer the scapegoat for society's ills (that is so 2004), they are props for a campaign Islamophobia. ("Why do you support Muslins so much when they throw yer kind off of buildings!")

  • BYODB||

    So it's not a valid concern that while Christians and Muslim's both consider gay people sinners, only one of them mass-exterminates them in countries where they hold the majority?

    Or is there a Christian state that also exterminates gays that we can point to as an equivocation?

  • Timrekgrun||

    Still no love for the atheists though. Figures. Luckily, we godless heathens will somehow get along without a bunch of obnoxious brats in Hitler Youth regalia telling us what to burn.

  • ||

    I'm not sure Timrekgrun has met many Boy Scouts...

  • notJoe||

    Atheist here, father of a Cub Scout and sometime assistant den leader. It does chap my hide to keep my mouth shut about the God stuff they enthusiastically promote (technically they're supposed to kick me out if I'm outed), but hey, their club, their rules.

    I'd still rather they stuck to camping, earning merit badges and that sort of thing though.

  • ||

    I'd still rather they stuck to camping, earning merit badges and that sort of thing though.

    I've found some more private organizations to be as good or better in this regard. Additionally, I've always read/interpretted the theistic stance to be more against notions of strictly/explicitly the self and/or the state as *the* moral authority. "I'd rather be in nature thinking about God, than in Church thinking about being in nature." as it were.

    As more or less a theist, I've come to dislike scouting for the increasingly strictured, social(ist) nature of the cub scouting program. 'Ranks' have nothing to do with merit and advancement in rank requires idiotically redundant and not-at-all scouting related 'Adventures'. There are only so many times that he kids will want to visit the police station and, every time, the inevitable highlight will be the shooting range, which scouting functionally turfs out to the NRA.

  • ThomasD||

    My understanding is that much of the God emphasis of scouting was done for the express purpose of setting the organization apart from what would otherwise be/appear to be quite similar to the godless socialist youth parties that predominated in turn of the century Europe..

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    4 Yes: Cub Scouting is organized parent helicoptering, and the program sucks. Worse, it re-inforces the worst inclinations of parents and makes getting started in Boy Scouting infinitely harder than it should be. When my son was in Cub Scouting, we ran a secret Boy Scout program, and they loved it.

    3 No: BSA National does not effectively manage local units. Indeed, Councils can enforce whatever policies they wish Further, each chartering organization OWNS their program (BSA is exactly the opposite of GSA in this regard). Most units, even in conforming Councils, misbehave and misapply policy widely and constantly.

    2 Yes: lots of scouting if fucked up. Lots of Marines and sewing bees and prom dates and plumbing designs are fucked up...proves nothing. I know a few hundred guys who learned a ton about management from scouting, but I've been parts of successful units.

    1 Yes: Scouting is co-ed in most of the world.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • BYODB||

    When I was in the Scouts, and before, my father took our family out to the most blighted and remote parts of the United States to camp. By the time I was old enough to go on Boy Scout camping trips, I was shocked at how utterly shitty and idiotic their 'training' was, but perhaps our Troop was especially bad.

    I say skip the Scouts if you want to learn how to camp, but if you want a bunch of arbitrary and useless skills that award badges just enroll them in public school.

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    5 Yes: unit programs vary incredibly...sorry you had a bad unit. Ubiquitous cell towers will essentially destroy Outdoors as a Method of Scouting soon: isolating the boys from the world to learn to rely upon themselves, their training, and their planning is essentially dead as soon as googling your way out of a tight spot becomes the plan. For decades, archaic skills like archery, orienteering, and pioneering persisted in the program and were useful paradigms wherein boys learned to manage, tune, and build; with scoped rifles, GPS, and space-age gear, the need to think can be erased from the Outdoors. Being outdoors and practicing arcane skills was never necessary; it just worked really well and was fun if your unit knew how to make the most of the program.

    4 Yes: Cub Scouting is organized parent helicoptering, and the program sucks. Worse, it re-inforces the worst inclinations of parents and makes getting started in Boy Scouting infinitely harder than it should be. When my son was in Cub Scouting, we ran a secret Boy Scout program, and they loved it.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • ||

    Still no love for the atheists though. Figures. Luckily, we godless heathens will somehow get along without a bunch of obnoxious brats in Hitler Youth regalia telling us what to burn.

    Right because, again, an organization created by a theist has to explicitly include everyone. Without going through the rigorous religious purity tests, atheists would never get access to national parks, regional campgrounds, pinewood derby materials, and fundraiser popcorn.

    The Scouts predates the Hitler Youth and it would better/best be described as 'Western Imperial' regalia but, lacking a specific love, devotion, or annotated acceptance of white people means that it explicitly excludes them.

  • BearOdinson||

    Speak for yourself. Some of us heathens have a whole shit-load of gods!

  • Mitsima||

    Those Antifas boys can get into anywhere!

  • Teri Moto||

    Did you even RTMF letter the LDS put out? They aren't leaving the Scouts. They are leaving two of the programs that are not that popular. They will still have Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts (because every good young Mormon boy wants to be an Eagle Scout - and you can't do that in Venturing or Varsity.)

    Keep this kind of hard hitting research up, and you just might outdo Salon's Easter expose a few years back about the Apostle's Creed.

    Can't believe I'm defending the LDS here, but here's the letter I'm talking about.

    http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/.....y-2017.pdf

  • prolefeed||

    It's almost like the author of this was so eager to bust out the snark that ze didn't have time to do a 30 second google search on the differences between Boy Scouts and the two sub-organizations that are being discontinued by the Mormons:

    http://usscouts.org/advance/docs/VVVtable.asp

  • notJoe||

    Thanks. The MSM has been having something of a field day over this and none of them have got their reporting correct.

    It's almost like they're pushing an agenda instead of reporting news...

  • notJoe||

    Thanks. The MSM has been having something of a field day over this and none of them have got their reporting correct.

    It's almost like they're pushing an agenda instead of reporting news...

  • notJoe||

    I'd really like to see Reason salvage a little of their now almost non-existent integrity and pull this article.

  • BYODB||

    Each of their more idiotic writers need to stick to their niche genres where they are actually semi-knowledgeable. Every time someone like Soave tries to write about something other than their pet cause they come off looking like a complete idiot.

    Maybe we should all go and apply for their internship...lol

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    This guy obviously knows what he's talking about. I'll add:

    6) More so in the LDS units, few scouts last beyond 13. Most just disappear and maybe reappear at 17 just in time to finish their Eagle so they can paste it on their West Point applications. Many older scouts are registered as both scouts and venturers, but few venturing units are truly successful, and few registered scouts over 15 actually show up for activities. There is nothing less significant than that a movement discontinue venturing: it is the utilitarian equivalent of trimming off an eleventh toe.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • rudehost||

    Having solved all of the problems of over regulation, excessive taxation, eminent domain, abusive prosecutors and the like Reason has found a new mission in hand wringing over whether the mormons are pro LGBT enough.

  • Mickey Rat||

    You have to prioritize what issues are most important to the Libertarian Moment.

  • notJoe||

    You really are mentally deficient. Sorry I have to waste time pointing out the obvious to you, but while politics may not be a zero-sum game, Reason's editorial budget is. We'd (and by "we" I mean the non-deranged portion of the readership, which does kind of leave you standing in a corner) rather those dollars go towards producing libertarian content.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Hey now! NOBODY puts DanO in a corner!

  • Stormy Dragon||

    Whataboutism

    Says a lot about the state of the modern GOP that they're been reduced to Soviet propaganda tactics.

  • ThomasD||

    Reason is attempting to create a new form of libertarianism. In this piece they show us the downside of free association. Because free association allows the LDS to show the world exactly where they stand on every issue.

    Unlike the new libertarianism which, when you think about it, is way more diverse because you simply have no idea the actual limits of the diversity. Diversity masked under all that conformity.

    TL/DR:

  • ThomasD||

    TL/DR: Reason is a lot like the Goth kids.

  • Citizen X - #6||

    Have you seen Nick Gillespie?

  • I can't even||

    Freedom is Submission. Celebrate the mental illness of others or be destroyed.

  • ||

    Sarah Rose Siskind is a comedian and a comedy writer for "StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson."

    Hey, she's got credentials. The hilarity of a Bill Nye or deGrasse Tyson combined with the intellectual depth of a John Oliver or Steven Colbert in a single package!

  • Red Rocks Baiting n Inciting||

    Look on the bright side, at least the article didn't include soliloquies on her gay best friend, her period, or her stanky vagina like most female "comedians" default to in their acts.

  • WakaWaka||

    "Woke Minds and Intersectional Markets"

  • Mitsima||

    Is sis-kind like wolf-kind, but for sisters, meaning she's not actually a sister but identifies as one? Did I just assume her gender identity, too? I'm so confused. Will coffee help my awokedness? Can I identify as woke but go back to sleep because my head hurts?

  • Mickey Rat||

    The social left finally forced the Boy Scouts to surrender, how dare social conservatives try to regroup under a new banner!

  • AlgerHiss||

    May 3 not-yet-trannied males marry one another?

    Might a not-yet-trannied mother marry her not-yet-trannied daughter?

    Does a male-to-female tranny have their PSA checked?

    Would a female-to-male tranny get a PAP smear?

    If one can suffer from gender dysphoria, is there a reason they might not suffer from species dysphoria?

  • ThomasD||

    "If one can suffer from gender dysphoria, is there a reason they might not suffer from species dysphoria?"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

    True story: One night, shooting pool with a friend who also happens to be a psychiatrist recognized as an expert on gender dysphoria, I told him about this dude.

    His response was "that's nuts."

  • ||

    I can't fathom how these people walk around after sundown.

    If I bumped into this character in a dark alley or parking lot, I can't say for certain what the outcome of my "Oh shit!/WTF?" thought process would be but the odds are good that they would be exceedingly injurious if not fatal to the cat/animal creature I bumped into.

    I also saw a Venezuelan guy who vaguely resembled Darth Maul. Regardless of if I were a protester or one of the sympathizers, "Darth Maul Guy" would be towards the top of my 'do not hesitate if seen in cross hairs' list.

    Not that I would freak out on these people at the drop of a pin, but they're look is frequently designed to freak people out.

  • ThomasD||

    My 'personal threat zone' grows exponentially in the presence of a face tattoo.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    "Not that I would freak out on these people at the drop of a pin, but they're look is frequently designed to freak people out."

    A firing pin?

  • colorblindkid||

    Rex Tillerson was the head of the Scouts and was the driving force behind letting gay leaders in. Don't try to tell this to a liberal, though. Their brains can't compute such a thing.

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    7) Actually, since scouting is a co-ed movement in most of the world, no American is the driving force...it would be as if Tillerson took credit for the sun's rising: it was going to happen anyway. We were talking about this before Gates, and he certainly started the ball rolling on distancing BSA from its primitive mores. I'm no liberal, but I lived in the community with National, had their executives and employees for neighbors, and I've been trying to help my scouter friends get ready for this for two decades....it is not a surprise to any scouter.

    The article is like most journalism: a rant that twists one factoid and exploits it to suit the writer's agenda.
    Like a few of the other commenters, I know a lot about LDS scouting and will add some more notes below and point out the correct/useful comments here.

  • chipper me timbers||

    Reason, you are better than this. It's a silly diatribe and not thoughtful post. This reads like a Gizmodo or Salon piece.

  • Fascist loofa-faced shitgibbon||

    "Mormons blaze..."

    That's the best explanation for that goofy religion.

  • doktorschnabel||

    The Mormon Church has announced 185,000 or all less than one third of its Boy Scouts membership in the U.S. and Canada will leave to start its own program beginning January 1, 2018.

    FYTF
    https://goo.gl/RESwPa

    If I wanted bias-confirming left-wing fact-flexible hit-pieces I would just read the NYT.

  • Gadianton||

    The Varsity and Venturer posts (ages 14 - 18) in the Mormon church are like your appendix. They're there, but no-one knows what they're for. Boys who want to finish their eagles past 14 register with the troop, because that's where the people who care about scouting are.

  • Don Escaped Texas||

    This is exactly correct: in all troops, not just LDS.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Nothing rankles progressives (communists) more than a story about an a person or organization that is assimilated into their hive mind. Especially when they dissent from progtard groupthink.

  • WakaWaka||

    So freedom of association is totes not cool, either? What would you say actually makes Reason a libertarian publication anymore? Uber? Is that really all there is?

  • ace_m82||

    Why did I read this when it's a total waste of my time? I wonder why I don't give Reason money? Could it be due to claptrap like this?

    (Now look, I've turned into Judge Napolitano...)

  • Stormy Dragon||

    BTW, what's with all the old Trolls coming back all of a sudden? Has the shunning of the cosmos ended? Because I seriously think we deserve a few more months of "punishing" silence.

  • JTH||

    Unfortunately, the author got the facts wrong...and thus her underlying assumptions are also wrong.

    The LDS church registers 470,000 boys in scouting programs. The 180,000 that will no longer participate represent approx. 39% of LDS Scouts...not "all" as the author suggests.

    The primary reason for not registering the older boys is because the church found that Scout participation dropped significantly after the age of 14. They get jobs, become more involved in other activities, etc.

    If anything, the issue was an economic one - why should the church pay the registration frees for boys that didn't want to participate in scouting?

    Those in the 14 - 18 age group that want to continue participating in Scouts can continue to do so...and the church will pay the fees. The only change is that the church just isn't going to automatically pay the BSA registration fees for all boys in that age group.

    Additionally, the LDS church is will continue to pay the registration fees for the boys next year, so as to ease the financial shock that this may have caused to the BSA. This fact was conveniently left out of the author's article...and doesn't really play into the gay-hating that the author is trying to promote

    All in, this was a poorly researched and poorly reasoned article which promoted a narrative that just wasn't so. For a magazine named 'Reason', much more is expected.

  • Rebel Scum||

    The Mormon Church has announced 185,000 or all of its Boy Scouts membership in the U.S. and Canada will leave to start its own program beginning January 1, 2018

    Something something freedom of association...

    One day a long time from now, I hope to watch my trans-robot, bi-curious son receive his Eagle Scout award. I know that Ze will carry the torch of generations of scouts

    One day, long from now, perhaps Reason will stop allowing proggie nonsense on a so-called Libertarian blog.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Somebody must have given them a bag of money to change emphasis.

    . . . and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt. If they're doing it for no reason, that would be damning.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The Adventists saw this coming from a hundred years ago.

    https://tinyurl.com/lxcgx4a

    I think the main reason the Adventists developed outside the scouts a hundred years ago was because they didn't want to deal with secular activities on Saturdays, which violates their religious beliefs--but it's the same thing. If you don't want to be part of a group that doesn't represent or won't respect your beliefs, exercise your freedom of association and form your own group!

    That's the way it should be in the United States of America. Sure, homophobia is pathetic, but so is shaming people for being Mormon. "Why won't Mormons just go back into the closet"--is that what I'm supposed to say? Is respecting some people's preferences regarding where they like to put their dingy more respectable or more rational than respecting other people's religion for some reason?

    By the way, 185,000 Mormon scouts doesn't impress me. The Adventists have 2 million Pathfinders all over the world. Maybe the Mormons should look at joining Pathfinders. Pathfinders doesn't discriminate against people because of their religious beliefs, but you do have to respect other people's religions . . . or you can always choose to leave.

    If we're no longer going to be the Land of Opportunity, can we still at least be the Land of Lots of Choices?

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Yep. And like Groucho, I would never join any group that would have me as a memeber in the first place anyway.

  • Rhywun||

    Y'know... I can picture lots of perfectly nice, respectable families not wanting to send their kids to Woke Scouts because they think scouts was fine the way it was when they were young - and now they get to be accused of being gay-bashing racist Nazis because of it.

    Ain't Kulturkampf fun?

  • Ken Shultz||

    I should add, Mormons are an historically aggrieved minority by the Unites States government.

    https://tinyurl.com/bn7oh9v

    Not to mention being effectively driven out of both Missouri and Illinois because of their religious beliefs.

    I know they're not a fashionable aggrieved minority these days, but effectively denigrating the religious beliefs of an historically aggrieved religious minority is unseemly--especially while you're trying to make a principled case for not discriminating against some other minority.

    There isn't anything courageous about denigrating a relatively unpopular religion in favor of a more popular minority either--not that denigrating the rights of more popular minorities impresses me either. But this was an opportunity to stick up for the freedom of a relatively unpopular minority--swing and a miss.

    Oh well, maybe next time Reason will suck less.

    Be prepared, I guess.

  • Rhywun||

    Not to mention being effectively driven out of both Missouri and Illinois because of their religious beliefs.

    Don't forget New York, where it all began.

  • Ken Shultz||

    You have to be the right kind of victim for anyone to care.

    In 1859, the U.S. government occupied Utah, like we occupied Iraq, and only called off the attack on Salt Lake City when they agreed to have a governor imposed on their territory rather than elected--and agreed that they couldn't elect a governor if he was Mormon.

    It's amazing that the Mormons didn't enter the Civil War on the side of the Confederacy.

    The enthusiasm among average people was there. That's why there's a Dixie National Forest in Utah, a Dixie State College, in St. George Utah, and that's why UNLV has "The Rebels" as their mascot--everything south of the line running across the top of Arizona was Confederate Arizona at the time. Las Vegas was part of Arizona and dominated by Mormons. They broke it off and gave it to Union Nevada when Nevada joined the Union--just to break up the Mormons a little bit. The locals clung to the Confederate flag as a symbol of their resistance.

    On my way to Zion last year, they were still selling Confederate flags in the local gas stations near St. George! It has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with the way the Union treated them in 1859.

    Anyway, obviously not fashionable victims, so who cares if they were persecuted for their religious beliefs, right?

  • leeserbk@mac.com||

    The term "Dixie" in Utah has nothing to do with the Confederacy. When souther Utah was settled the climate contrasted drastically from the Northern parts of the territory such as Salt Lake City and Logan. A cotton industry was started and as a result of the similarities, it was dubbed "Dixie".

    Now, the fact that a gas station sells a Confederate flag in "Dixie", has little meaning other than someone got an idea of how to make money.

    While the United States persecuted the Mormons. They were forced out of Missouri under threat of the governor's "extermination" order, and driven from the United State to Mexico (what is now Utah was then part of Mexico), and the United States sent the Army to militarily conquer the Mormons in the 1850s to the ultimate embarrassment of the President, the Mormons always remained faithful to the Union.

    Contrary to the previous poster, the term "Dixie" in Utah has NOTHING to do with the way the Union treated them in 1859.

  • Chip Your Pets||

    The attack on the Boy Scouts is and was always about infiltrating and destroying any organization that is independent of the state. Same as the attacks on men-only clubs of all sorts.

    The statists don't mind having anti-state organizations -- they make convenient bogeymen and targets of blame for things that go wrong. Organiztions that aren't pro- or anti-state, but just provide a community outside of state control, are the real problem for them.

  • ThomasD||

    " Organiztions that aren't pro- or anti-state, but just provide a community outside of state control, are the real problem for them."

    Yet they go around calling everyone else fascists.

  • Tony||

    What combination of drugs makes a brain go this haywire, I wonder.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Probably the ones you take Tony.

  • jaydubyou||

    I think you raise a good point. I doubt that the Boy Scouts would have allowed homosexual leaders, members, or "transgenders" under their fold without the threat of shame or legal action by those who want to force their progressive viewpoint on a private organization. The Boy Scouts are not "responding to the times," as someone else here suggested, as much as being forced into a corner by the times.....

    It WAS an attack on the BSA--and this sort of action by the Mormon church (and me, by removing my donations and children from it) is the cost of the capitulation.

    I view it as shameful for the BSA to have succumbed to giving up the privacy of the boys under their care--and for sowing confusion among them regarding the nature and purpose of sex, sex difference, sexuality, family, biology, and procreation through their "progressive enlightenment."

    Shameful.

  • Tony||

    As a former Scout, let me assure those of you who are choosing to get your panties in a twist over this issue, there have always been gay boys in the Scouts. Same with the military too!

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Not openly. Now both are turned into Petrie dishes for social experiments by progtards.

  • Bearded Spock||

    You know, I was feeling guilty for being a bit too hard on Reason in my comments yesterday.

    But then I read this bigoted screed, and changed my opinion. If anything, I was too charitable in my assessment of Reason's new editorial direction.

    Not only is this hateful diatribe dogmatic, shrill, and filled with an entire army of strawmen, IT ISN'T EVEN FACTUALLY CORRECT. As others have pointed out the LDS Church isn't abandoning the BSA, they're just dumping scouting programs that are rarely used by the church.

    Two minutes of Googling would have confirmed the facts of this situation. And yet Reason not only published the article as written, but also refused to correct it when called out.

    Or maybe no one at Reason besides Bailey bothers to read the comments. Which actually wouldn't surprise me in the least.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Why is this a Reason article? LDS is a private church and can be against anything they fucking well please. This article would Ben better suited for sôme progtard site.

  • Chip Chip Cheroo||

    The author fails to mention that the LDS church is only discontinuing its affiliation with the BSA for boys 14 - 18 with the Varsity and Venturing programs. The cub scouts and boy scouts for boys 8 -13 remains unchanged. To give you some idea on how the Varsity and Venturing programs were not widely implemented by the LDS church - I meet all the stereotypes of lifelong Mormon and Eagle Scout (20 years ago) and it wasn't until this last year that I really understood that the Varsity and Venturing were actually different programs within BSA with different uniforms, awards, structure, and rules. In reality, this announcement actually has very little impact for the majority of Mormon congregations and how activities for boys 14 - 18 will be conducted.

  • Seamus the Terrible||

    This is a disappointing article. I'm used to seeing high quality at Reason.com, but the author (and many of those who have placed comments) have displayed a startling ignorance of Mormonism.

    This is a poor accounting of our motivation. If you want more accurate information, visit Mormon.org or simply ask a Mormon who knows his religion.

    Libertarianism is supposed to be about using logic and facts with which to make your arguments.

    Go and do your homework and stop acting like a bunch of ninnyhammers. As for me and like-minded Mormon libertarians, we will pray for you, until such time as you recognize the simple fact the Mormonism is the most libertarian religion there is.

  • leeserbk@mac.com||

    (This is what I posted on my FB account. Here is Part 1)

    Normally, I'm a big fan of Reason, but they missed the boat on this one. Yes, the Boy Scouts have recently allowed gay leaders. BUT....that is where the accuracy in this article ends.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has had boys with same sex attractions in its ranks for years. Even when the Boy Scouts didn't allow even "gay" boys to be Scouts, the Church quietly enrolled such young men.
    While it is true that the Church has changed its relationship with scouts for some of the older boys, it has in no way "severed" relationships. The Church no longer supports Venture or Varsity Scouting (Surprise, but the Church has never supported the Tiger Cubs, either). But this author did not even quote the actual document which said that boys
    who wanted to earn the Eagle award and others can certainly still register as scouts in LDS troops, and the Church will pay the registration fees, as always.

  • leeserbk@mac.com||

    Part 2: I have noticed over the years the Church and the BSA have drifted apart somewhat, it is mostly over the cost of the Scouting program and the desire for the Church to have a better balance, expense-wise, for the boys verses the girls programs. If you don't know this little fact, some aspects of the BSA are expensive. Some are very expensive.
    The BSA decision to allow gay leaders does NOT affect LDS troops. We can still run them the way we choose. So can troops sponsored by any other organization, religious or not.

    I just lead some 300 boys for a two week SCOUTING experience at the BSA Camp Wilderness. The Church rented the entire Camp and its staff for a week for a LDS Boy Scout encampment. Non-lds members of the LDS troops were also there and we had boys from four states and three provinces. That is hardly a "rift" or "severed" relationship.

    Also, I noticed that this author didn't even have the journalistic professionalism to mention the Church by it's name....The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She kept referring to us and the institution only as "Mormon". That's not a offensive term, but it's sole use os a tactic that detractors use to make us sound more mysterious (it conjures up images of Mennonites in buggies, Masons, Muslims, Moonies, or any other dark and evil "M" group. Just call us by name, at least once, in the article.

    Clearly, for some reason this lady has an axe to grind and this article is not up to the normal standards of Reason.

  • ||

    I find this article to make sweeping generalizations about very loving and kind disciples of Christ. If I rewrote the article and replaced church with gay movement and transgender with Jew/Rabbi many would be offended.

    The gay movement made clear the move was definitely not because of the church. (Spoiler alert: It's because of the church). Rumors of a rift between the Gays and the Boy Scouts circulated when the B.S.A. decided to admit conservatively minded boys into the program and publicly considered admitting Rabbis. The Gay movement responded in a statement, and I'm paraphrasing here: "Ewwww, Icky! Cooties!"
    This split represents a cultural cleaving. Social progress is being recognized by even some of the most beloved, gay stalwarts. The Boy Scouts is an institution more wholesome and more American than a Norman Rockwell painting of a puppy saluting an American flag. And when the Boy Scouts don't give a damn about that puppy's religious affiliation, we know we're making progress as a society.

  • ||

    Embracing religious equality for an institution like the Boy Scouts comes at a cost. The B.S.A. isn't appealing much to its base or racking up "likes" in the social media echo chamber. For standing up to the anti-Semites, I hereby award the Scouts my Honey Badger badge because they just don't give a damn.
    The Gay movement, on the other hand, has taken a bigoted stance, forgetting the prime objective of Boy Scouts. No, not being reverent, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave or clean. The duty of every scout is to wantonly light stuff on fire. Religious or secular, Jew or gentile, all boy scouts are united in their pyromania.
    The gay movement claims to have severed its relationship with the Boy Scouts because young men "are not being served well by the Varsity or Venturing programs, which have historically been difficult to implement."
    Oh, for sure. The gay movement is only now getting around to this historical difficulty just when the Boy Scouts formally admit a Jewish rabbi as a troop leader and Jewish boys. I wonder why this difficulty only seems to affect their teenage boys. The answer, I believe, rhymes with panti-Semite.

  • ||

    The gay movement recognizes its bigoted stance is not socially acceptable in this day and age, but not savvy enough to realize religious discrimination preference has absolutely no bearing on moral character.
    Here are a few of my predictions for breaking news headlines in the aftermath of the Gay Movement severing ties with the Boy Scouts:
    • Church of Scientology Reinstates Ties with Secret Squid Scouts of Planet Xavier.

    • Catholic Church Enthusiastically Leaves Partnership with Boy Scouts.
    • Mormon Church Reinstates Varsity and Venturing Programs with the BSA.
    Scout Law tells me "to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight." While the Gay Movement hangs itself up on the whole "straight" part, the Boy Scouts looks positively and officially mentally woke.
    Why should I care? I was a member of the Boy Scouts of America. I was a Venture Scout and I served on my town's Boy Scout Council. I marched in parades, received my gold award and pulled off a neckerchief like nobody's business.
    One day a long time from now, I hope to watch my morally straight son receive his Eagle Scout award. I know that he will carry the torch of generations of scouts who came before, using it to enthusiastically light all kinds of stuff on fire.

  • ||

    Let's protect religious freedom not mock it.

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