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Free Minds & Free Markets

Meet Johannesburg's New Libertarian Mayor

Herman Mashaba is something new in South Africa. But can a black pro-market politician make real changes?

Herman MashabaElizabeth Sejake/Foto24/Gallo Images/Getty ImagesHerman Mashaba is an unlikely mayor for South Africa's largest city. In a country that has been dominated for more than two decades by the left-wing African National Congress (ANC), no one foresaw political victory for a self-declared "capitalist crusader," property rights zealot, and beauty products mogul who opposes the minimum wage and zoning regulations. Mashaba is an outlier even in his own party, the white-dominated centrist Democratic Alliance (D.A.).

The son of a domestic worker raised by his sisters in a black township near Pretoria under apartheid, Mashaba became a self-made millionaire in a country that systematically excluded blacks from economic opportunities. Sworn into office on August 22, he must wrangle a coalition that includes the revolutionary socialist Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF) as he tries to implement an anti-regulation, pro-market agenda.

reason: Under apartheid, the white government claimed to be capitalist. So many black South Africans support parties that are critical of free markets, such as the ANC, or explicitly anti-capitalist, like EFF. What explains your pro-market stance?

Mashaba: In 1950, they passed the Suppression of Communism Act. So when I was born in 1959, by virtue of that law and being black, I was automatically a communist. Look at that piece of legislation. It says that anyone that advocated the rights of blacks must be regarded as a communist.

What compounded the problem was that as we were growing up, the communists were the ones that seemed to be helping us, and on the other hand the Americans and the British were seen to be working with the apartheid government. So as far as blacks were concerned, Russia was the savior.

People had no idea what Russia was doing to its own people. If you saw the mess that was happening in Russia—our people had no idea. But the ANC guys who had been to Russia, they knew how brutal the system is.

In 1980, with my university closing down, I tried to leave the country to go for military training. I was hoping the Russians would give me an AK-47 and train me. I had nothing to lose; the apartheid government wanted to destroy my future and my life.

reason: How did you become a capitalist, then?

Mashaba: People must be careful by what they mean by capitalist. Capitalism for me is my right to feed myself and my family, to provide for myself and my family without any government intervention.

Government's role is to ensure that people don't kill me; when I have a dispute with you, to have courts I can take you to; and to provide infrastructure. That's the role of government. But I don't think I need any government to tell me that I must wake up to feed my family. If I decide that I don't want to work, why should government force me to work? As long as I'm not going to be a liability to that government. If you decide you don't want to work, then you cannot expect other people to assist you.

Obviously, some people for some reason need short-term intervention. I am for that. But if someone decides, "You know what, I don't want to work"? I don't think any government needs to force people to work. I don't need government to tell me I must work for you and then determine how much you must pay me and how many hours I must work.

When they start coming out with those policies, it is when you start stifling development. I've seen trade unions in this country becoming powerful and controlling our people. I was no longer allowed to reward people who are hard-working because unions assume everyone is the same. Unions discourage people from being the best they can be. I must pay people exactly the same regardless of whether they work hard.

People are under the impression that capitalism is about exploitation. In 1980, when I decided that I have to work, I worked for [the retail chain] Spar earning 1,875 rands a month (about $150). If Spar thought they exploited me, they made a terrible mistake. Was I happy with that R1,875? Absolutely not. I hated it. But I was so grateful for the opportunity. For me, I exploited them, because they didn't know what my agenda was. I needed experience. So with that R1,875, they paid me to train me! Never in the seven months I worked for them did I ask them for a raise. There was no need, because I was moving when I could find someone who would pay for experience.

They never wanted to give me a raise until the day I gave them my resignation letter. And then they started wanting to match the money the other company offered. It was too late. My life wasn't determined by Spar. I was in charge, and I said, "No, thank you very much," and I moved on and worked for Motale industries for 23 months, and I used the same approach.

You can check with everyone I've worked for: I put my heart into it. Not for them! I would like to encourage youngsters and others: Don't work for others. Work for yourself. Because I'm telling you no employer will want to lose a good working person.

reason: You've said that it's harder to start a new business under the ANC than it was under apartheid.

Mashaba: Because ANC operates on a basis of political patronage. They've destroyed black talent. They've destroyed black initiative. If you're not part of their inner circle you have no chance.

reason: What are your priorities? What are the metrics by which your tenure will be judged as a success or a failure?

Photo Credit: Elizabeth Sejake/Foto24/Gallo Images/Getty Images

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  • Get To Da Chippah||

    Government's role is to ensure that people don't kill me; when I have a dispute with you, to have courts I can take you to; and to provide infrastructure.

    ROADZ??!?!

  • 6li72h||

    We've actually taken the first step to privatizing the national roads surrounding Joburg, it's just that the company that runs them is propped up by (you guessed it) the city municipality. Pretty much nobody pays the road tolls because they're ridiculously high, and the company that maintains the electronic gantry system is bailed out every year.

    So roadz too for now, but it's nice to know the infrastructure is all set up for actual free marketeers to take over, eventually. hopefully. Fingers crossed.

    Thanks for the coverage, Reason! I've been pretty happy with Mashaba, so far as one can actually like a politician. It's at least a fresher state right now than the ANC corpocrats that've ignored everything but their taxes for the past two decades.

  • Sevo||

    I'd ask if we can make an offer to get him to the US, but he's just be called an Uncle Tom and ignored by those who claim to want to help 'the poor minorities'.

  • ziggy||

    Let's shit on the guy who agrees with libertarians 70-80% just because he thinks gov should build the roads. In South Africa I'm sure there's hundreds of more important areas to get gov out.

  • Sevo||

    Pretty sure your sarc meter needs calibration.

  • RBS||

    Whoosh!

  • Ted S.||

    Not a real black.

  • Ska||

    The mayor is a ***DING***.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    He sad the mayor is near!

  • american socialist||

    You mean communists actually opposed repression in South Africa by violent opposition to the Apartheid government? Hmm, I thought communist were only about gulags and bread lines. I don't see the appeal, frankly.

  • Sevo||

    Fuck off, asswipe.

  • Derp-o-Matic 5000||

    I guess they were upset that someone else was hogging all the oppression.

    Also, what Sevo said.

  • The Fusionist||

    The communists fought against noncommunist regimes.

    They were more popular in noncommunist countries than communist countries.

    Your point being...

  • american socialist||

    Communists sure seem to be on the right side of history. Civil Rights, anti-fascism, opposition to McCarthyism, nuclear disarmament, gay rights, opposition to Apartheid...

  • The Fusionist||

    "Initially the CPSA [Communist Party of South Africa] was dominated by white members and its actions were focused mainly on white working-class interests. The CPSA played a leading role during the 1922 strike on the Witwatersrand. One of the main reasons for the strike was the scrapping of one of the so-called Statutory Colour Bar Acts which favoured white workers in certain mining sectors, an aspect which the CPSA exploited. That racism was a factor in the strike was clear from the slogan which CPSA members used: "Workers of the world unite and fight for a white South Africa".

  • Suell||

    To AmSoc that is the right side of history. You are taking about an avowed racist.

  • commodious was wrong again||

    Racism would be one thing, he's a political nihilist.

  • Juice||

    Communists sure seem to be on the right side of history. Civil Rights, anti-fascism, opposition to McCarthyism, nuclear disarmament, gay rights, opposition to Apartheid...

    Come on. You're trolling.

  • Sevo||

    "Come on. You're trolling."

    He's doing exactly that and nothing else. He is here to get attention, and why anyone replies with anything other than an invitation to get lost is a mystery to me.
    He's an imbecile with a terminal case of smug and should be told to fuck off. I believe he has me on "ignore" and if he ended up putting everyone on "ignore", we'd be far better off.
    The world would be better off if her were dead.

  • ||

    Hi Am Socpuppet.

  • american socialist||

    I've never put anyone on ignore. I'm confident of my humanism and empathy for my fellow man to simply scroll by comments I disagree with or don't think worthy of response.

  • ||

    "don't think worthy of response."

    My only wish is that everyone here would take that advice with respect to the troll posts you put up like the one above trying to gain attention by an infantile attempt in glorifying communism.

    We all know you would just slink off if you didn't get the attention you so obviously crave, negative or not. You're like a has been B-list actor who thinks that any publicity is better than being ignored.

    As someone posted above, the only people who appreciate communism are those who don't live under it's soul crushing embrace.

  • Sevo||

    "My only wish is that everyone here would take that advice with respect to the troll posts you put up"
    Ignoring that POS is certainly a good move. Alternatively, you can make it clear that he ought to take a hike.
    Either way, when he finds the attention he garners is along the lines of 'get lost', he'll go elsewhere with the lame trolling.
    I repeat: NOTHING he posts is meant as argument in good faith. He's a juvenile personality hoping for attention from the adults. When he gets none (like white indian) he will leave.

  • Pathogen||

    Top. Fucking. Kek..

  • Sevo||

    american socialist|11.12.16 @ 2:57PM|#
    "I've never put anyone on ignore."

    Fuck off, asswipe

  • John Titor||

    Amsoc, like a good moronic propagandist or useful idiot, is regurgitating Cold War Soviet propaganda. Communists worked with Civil Rights groups, but he, being a disingenuous jackass, ignores all those declassified documents from after the collapse that shows how the KGB were using them as fronts to stir up violent civil upheaval. It doesn't matter that, of course, at that point in time the Soviets were massively repressing and re-educating every cultural, religious or racial minority in their own country.

    Yes, the KGB were tied into the American nuclear disarmament movement. For strategic reasons, i.e. diminishing U.S. stockpiles and the fact that their defense of Europe was dependent on nuclear resources. Gee, I wonder what a comparison of U.S. and Soviet Union stockpiles were like?Oh.

    And gay rights is just Amsoc being an idiot. The Soviets had anti-homosexual laws on the books and treated it as a mental illness or a gateway to pedophilia while the Chicomms were actively less tolerant towards homosexuality than Imperial China was.

  • Christophe||

    The only time totalitarianism is broad-minded is when it needs to build a coalition in order to win.

    Once victory is achieved or certain, "allies" get exiled/jailed/executed/ice-picked at convenience.

  • Sevo||

    Fuck off, asswipe.

  • Zero Sum Game||

    It's like you can't even comprehend the chess game that the U.S. and the soviets were playing. But of course you can't, because you're retarded.

    The soviets weren't playing on the right side of anyone. They were playing their side of a chess board and third world countries were their pawns. Anywhere they could go and say "look, it's the evil capitalism ideal that caused this to happen to you" where the real problems have always been endemic abuses of power, and people bought what was being sold because nobody offered them an alternative that looked better.

    You can sell the common man on all manner of evil if you throw your arm around him and say "I know your pain, brother. This is the evil you're secretly fighting. This is the puppet master, and here are the strings." Get him drunk on your ideology, put an AK-47 in his hands and march him off to die as part of your grander scheme.

    Fuck you, AmSoc. Fuck socialism. Fuck communism. Fuck your support of underhanded tactics that result in a less free world, that prop up strife and suffering as somehow being on the "right side" of anything.

  • Lee Genes||

    I'll add tens of millions of dead Chinese to that list.

    Oh and an entire generation of Cambodians as well.

    And millions of forcibly starved Ukrainians, etc.....

    They sure are on the right side of history. Doncha know it.

  • Sevo||

    Guys, he's NOT arguing in good faith. He's white indian with an even more tiresome shtick. Feeding vermin gets them coming back.

  • Sevo||

    You're an idiot|11.12.16 @ 1:43PM|#
    Fuck off, asswipe. Not feeding this vermin either.

  • Zero Sum Game||

    That much is obvious, but there are potentially bystanders who remain silent and they need to see a response to it, lest they be convinced by it.

    Especially in a time where people are blaming libertarians for this mess. Some are going to be coming here after seeing that 3% turnout for Johnson and saying "what the hell is a libertarian, and why did they do this to us?" And listening to a commie shilling in a potentially convincing way and nobody responding to it doesn't look good, because it looks like we've got no answers to it (the subtle implication being that he's right and we're stupid).

    Normally I'd say, don't feed the troll. However, the troll is throwing a temper tantrum in our store and our store has more customers looking at what we're selling now.

  • Sevo||

    Zero Sum Game|11.12.16 @ 2:18PM|#
    "That much is obvious, but there are potentially bystanders who remain silent and they need to see a response to it, lest they be convinced by it.
    -----------
    Normally I'd say, don't feed the troll. However, the troll is throwing a temper tantrum in our store and our store has more customers looking at what we're selling now."

    I'm hoping that the customer base is brighter than to accept that 'socialism is the wave of the future' crap, but...

  • Zero Sum Game||

    I'm hoping that the customer base is

    Let me stop you right there. The whole point of what I said is because it's not our normal customer base. Those are already regulars and already sold. I'm talking about the just-stopping-by folks who don't know what we're all about. They probably won't make an account. They'll just read, and might dive in on the comments.

  • Sevo||

    Sorry, that possibility is not worth trashing every threat with commie-kid repeating his lies. If some poor visitor assumes *we* think he's correct because we dismiss him, well, I'm guessing there wasn't much there to enlighten anyhow.

  • John Titor||

    Millions of dead, mass executions and graves, forced labour camps, violent military response to peaceful protest, forced abortions, starvation, horrific medical experiments, exposure of populations to nuclear material, imperialism, institutionalizing homosexuals for having bourgeois behaviour, murdering and gang-raping women under the context of 'opposition to apartheid'...

    You know, all those things you conveniently leave out whenever you deep-throat communism like a moron. But quick, throw some shitty whataboutism at me, that'll work!

  • american socialist||

    In the United States?! I had a laugh over your laundry list. Do you want me to point out examples of where the United States did most-- if not all-- of these things? Imperialism... hunh? Yeah, tell that to the Vietnamese.

  • Sevo||

    Fuck off, asswipe,

  • John Titor||

    Hey, look, a whataboutism. You're nothing if not pathetically predictable.

  • epsilon given||

    I'd like you to point to a single work that shows the United States killing millions of people in mass executions and graves.

    Yes, the US has done horrible things in the past. BUT they have done so AGAINST their ideals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; thus, when the US does them, it's NEVER to the scale of a Communist regime. Indeed, US COMMUNISTS estimated that it would take AT LEAST 30 million US citizen deaths JUST TO ESTABLISH COMMUNISM.

    On the other hand, when a Communist, or a National Socialist, decides to do these things, THEY GO ALL OUT, because the ends justify the means. And the ends is ALWAYS power for the Communist Party.

  • Fk Censorship||

    Civil rights? You know they forced gypsies to work in factories against their will, right? Gay rights? As in putting them in prison for leading a decadent, Western lifestyle? What a troll.

  • MarkLastname||

    "opposition to McCarthyism"
    Having hundreds of thousands of political dissidents summarily executed without trial? I think it's safe to say they didn't oppose McCarthyism on principal. They are always happey to do far worse to non-communists than non-communists ever did to them.

    "nuclear disarmament"
    Ha. Right.

    "opposition to Apartheid"
    The communist party in South Africa, The Economic Freedom Fighters, is violently raacist against white people and openly supports systematic discrimination against whites, Zimbabwe-style expropriation of white property, and regularly engages in genocidal rhetoric against whites (they are a black nationalist party). Again, they don't oppose apartheid. They want apartheid. They just want to be the masters this time.

    This is a solidly recurring theme in history. Communists and (classical) liberals have, in the past, fought together against tyrants, but for opposite reasons. (Classical) liberals want freedom and equality. Communists want to be the new masters.

  • american socialist||

    I know, I know... Mark. Ronald Reagan marched with the Freedom Riders and Angela Davis led an unprecedented nuclear weapons build-up.

    Can you google Joe Slovo for me and let me know what you find out? Thanks,

  • Sevo||

    Fuck off, asswipe.

  • MarkLastname||

    Yeah, the Soviets were eager for rapprochement. That's why they invaded Afghanistan before Reagan even entered office.

    Besides, what leads you to believe nuclear disarmament would be a good thing? The world has been far more peaceful (thanks to mutually assure destruction) since nuclear weapons were developed than before.

    Face it AmSoc. Communists have probably killed more people with hammers and sickles than capitalists have with nuclear weapons. They've definitely killed many times as many with rifles.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    Commies adapt their terror to the local situation. In South Africa, necklacing was the preferred method. I was going to link to an image, but they're too gruesome. Google it yourself.

  • DenverJ||

    You mean communists actually opposed repression in South Africa by violent opposition to the Apartheid government?

    Of course! I remember those noble Soviets, giving away all those free AK47s out of the goodness of their hearts.

  • Robert||

    Russian Communists fought the German Nazis too, once the latter abrogated their agreement. That doesn't make the Communists a positive good, just who happened to be in charge. Didn't help the people under them.

  • ||

    They fought the Nazis with material supplied by evil capitalists systems because their system was incapable of providing the material necessary to wage war on that scale.

  • MarkLastname||

    The Nazis opposed the oppression of Silesian Germans by the Polish government. I guess they weren't all bad. I mean, everyone says Nazis were just concentration camps and Einsatzgruppen, but they did a lot of good stuff too, right?

  • ||

    Ok, I gotta ask. What does libertarian mean in South Africa?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Probably somewhat relative

  • Sevo||

    "Ok, I gotta ask. What does libertarian mean in South Africa?"

    I'll take this:
    "Government's role is to ensure that people don't kill me; when I have a dispute with you, to have courts I can take you to; and to provide infrastructure. That's the role of government. But I don't think I need any government to tell me that I must wake up to feed my family. If I decide that I don't want to work, why should government force me to work? As long as I'm not going to be a liability to that government. If you decide you don't want to work, then you cannot expect other people to assist you."

  • Quincy.||

    From the Guardian:

    "I am against government trying to solve everything," Mashaba, 57, said. "Society deserves less government … As a democrat and a libertarian, I believe in freedom for everyone … I want human beings not to depend on government … As long as we don't adopt freedom policies we are not going to succeed. For any country to create wealth, you need individual freedom."

    I assume the ellipses were the Guardian's attempt to make him sound as terrifying as possible. Also:

    He also described the imposition of a minimum wage on employers as "an evil system to deny poor uneducated people the opportunity to advance".
  • BakedPenguin||

    Considering minimum wage laws in SA were introduced at the behest of white unions looking to exclude black workers, the Guardian can go screw itself.

  • SparktheRevolt||

    They were introduced in the US to do the same--to keep cheap minority labor from gainful employment.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    Reason is all about "free minds and free markets". If it should exist at all, the role of government is to establish rule of law and to protect property rights which are necessary for liberty.

    Good luck, Mayor Mashaba. You've got your work cut out for you!

  • ||

    And what is this guy, another billionaire? What happens if all these right leaning billionaires get into power and leave us alone? What will we do? I'm scared *runs to safe space*

  • ||

    Here, take this puppy with you .

  • ||

    "The son of a domestic worker raised by his sisters in a black township near Pretoria under apartheid, Mashaba became a self-made millionaire"

    Sure, he could do it because white privilege and... oh wait...

  • RBS||

    He's been corrupted by The System.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Can't get no justice.

    https://youtu.be/CgYwtyHxstU

  • CZmacure||

    white privilege


    In fairness, I understand there is actually "black privilege" in South Africa... it's best to be black, second best to be white, and third best to be coloured, I think?

  • ||

    "People must be careful by what they mean by capitalist. Capitalism for me is my right to feed myself and my family, to provide for myself and my family without any government intervention."

    Damn, this guy IS one of those crazies who think they have a right to do things without the government. What a nut case.

  • Juice||

    Mashaba: People must be careful by what they mean by capitalist. Capitalism for me is my right to feed myself and my family, to provide for myself and my family without any government intervention.

    But...that's not what capitalism means.

  • american socialist||

    I read an ANC article criticizing this guy. In the comments it was 80% racist trash and Apartheid bitter clingers who had orangutans as avatars writing in to support him. This guy has a future here in this country telling White Nationalists how stupid Black people are.

  • Sevo||

    blaah, blaah, blaah.
    Fuck off, asswipe

  • John Titor||

    "I read an article from an extremely corrupt and cronyist political party that even Nelson Mandela himself recognized was racist. But since it validates my shitty worldview I'll just whine about the comments."

  • LurkinInaBuildin||

    "I read an article"

    Yeah right.

  • Ted S.||

  • MarkLastname||

    Meanwhile, black nationalist leftist politicians systematically engage in race-based expropriation of property, impose discriminatory laws against white people, tolerate the murder of thousands of rural whites, say things like "all white people should be hacked and killed" (Thabo Mabotja, member of the EFF), and ""To be a revolutionary you have to be inspired by hatred and bloodshed" (seems to be one the EFF's party mottos or something).

    But yeah, those internet trolls are the real big concern. Those evil South African whites that make up 5% of the population must still be rigging the system in their favor or something despite the laws of the country systematically discriminating against them ("affirmative action").

  • BikeRider||

    I had the pleasure of dining with Mr. Mashaba a couple years ago when he was visiting a college I worked at. It was an informal gathering but a few people tried to turn it into a policy debate. It was amusing to watch North Americans try to tell a man born and raised under Apartheid how their ideas were better than his for improving his country.

  • LurkinInaBuildin||

    The way that Piers Morgan and John Oliver are amusing, i e. for about four minutes at the very most?

  • Fk Censorship||

    And that's due to their accents rather than what they are saying.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Of course they burned their shoes

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/.....over-trump

  • The Fusionist||

    "The Boston-based footwear maker has five factories in states in the New England area of the US, where they make the majority of their clothes and trainers."

    A company with factories in New England...those are a dime a dozen, right-thinking Americans should go ahead and burn their products!

  • The Fusionist||

    /sarc

  • And you believe that why?||

    I don't think the /sarc tag was needed. Even I got that one.

  • The Fusionist||

    Well, what would *you* do with shoes which SJWs have been wearing?

  • SimonD||

    exorcism?

  • Pathogen||

    Throw them at effigies of Booooooosh?

  • Juice||

    But...why?

  • commodious was wrong again||

    Because progressives are effing lunatics.

  • Lee Genes||

    Because signaling is more important than any other consideration.

    If no one were looking, there is no way any of them would participate in this nonsense.

    It's a symptom of affluence. No third world citizen would burn a hundred dollar pair of sneakers.

  • Ted S.||

    I only paid $60 for my New Balance shoes. (Of course, I was only looking for something in basic black that would comfortable for everyday walking around.)

  • C. Anacreon||

    I've been wearing those same $60 black New Balance sneakers for years now. They come in extra-wide for no extra charge, which is great given my flipper-feet. They go great with jeans or going to the gym. I wouldn't care what their exec said, I buy shoes for the quality of what I use them for, not as some goddam political statement.

  • Lee Genes||

    "I think the brand you're supporting says something about what you think is most important.

  • Rhywun||

    I hope their feet were still in them.

  • BakedPenguin||

    +1 would read again.

  • Crusty Juggler||

    That's just stupid.

  • GILMORE™||

    Popular Misconceptions Du Jour

    #1 - This election was all about "Working Class Whites" voting en-masse for Trump

    No. It was not about "who trump won". It was more about who Hillary *didn't* win. The stay-homes were as much if not more significant than the actual voters.

    Look at the numbers. The 'poorer' cohorts still go disproportionately for Team Blue

    yes, Team Blue beat Romney/McCain among poorer whites *with much greater margins* in the past. But the point is that they still fucking own the Low-Income groups.

    The story that "steel workers and coal miners" rushed into the arms of their fascist leader is pure Rich Liberal Class-Spite = trying to find someone to blame for why people failed to respond to their media-messaging.

    They want to point to the Rust Belt and say, "But THOSE PEOPLE failed us!". Again - that statement is still more about rich-urban-liberal myths than demographic reality.

    ""Black, Democratic Wayne county had 100,000 fewer votes than 2012. Clinton reduced black people to hot sauce and Beyoncé.""

    The thing most notable about this "working class whites" refrain is that its made most often by people who have likely not talked to any actual "working class"-anybody in a very long time.

  • The Fusionist||

    They talk to their maids and nannies, don't they?

  • AlmightyJB||

    They would it they could speak Spanish

  • Pathogen||

    Well, they talk at them... same/same?

  • The Fusionist||

    "Clinton reduced black people to hot sauce and Beyoncé."

    [Considers telling a lewd joke involving hot sauce and Beyoncé, think better of it]

  • The Fusionist||

    *thinks* better

  • LurkinInaBuildin||

    +1 porno gil....more.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    Are all those % graphs based on exit polls? If so, did exit polls predict who won?

    What I'm saying, if some people lied about whom they voted for, maybe polls aren't reliable.

  • GILMORE™||

    I think exit polls have been shown to be reliable in ways that "predictive polling" is not.

    My own experience doing similar survey work* shows that people generally respond honestly when asked "what they just did" (if they choose to respond at all)......

    ....while people asked, "What they WILL (or "might") do in the near-future" have a wide range of potential variability compared to actual results.

    Its not just that people "lie" when it comes to stated-preference. More than half simply over-state their certainty. Many will never vote at all. Others tell you what they think you want to hear.

    There's just much more complexity involved in asking people to predict their future decision-processes compared to simply disclosing what they just did.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    Stupid crashy windows, now I'm late with reply...

    That's all true, but if we don't know what exit polls said re: Clinton vs Trump vote share, then all the numbers are iffy withing some 1-2% margin at least. And I can't find any place with exit polls results that gives the baseline number - how did your poll break overall? I mean, there's a lot of close shit there...

  • MarkLastname||

    It would also make more sense to say Trump gained comparative ground on the working class period, since he not only didn't lose but actually gained some (proportionally, at least, not sure about absolute) minority votes compared to Romney.

    But yeah, mainly, the theme of the election is that Clinton couldn't turn out voters like Obama could, and so lost even though Trump did slightly worse than Romney.

  • Derpetologist||

    French artist who survived Bataclan massacre publishes graphic novel. The attackers are portrayed as creepy skeletons. I guess he wrote it under a pseudonym because he was afraid you-know-who might track him down and finish him off.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/.....index.html

  • The Fusionist||

    "you-know-who"

    Racist, sexist white evangelicals in the Rust Belt?

  • Pathogen||

    Yes, of course.. it's always "those" guys.

  • Derpetologist||

    "Dewilde says he is determined to do all he can to battle all kinds of fanaticism, and urges to others to join the search for a way forward."

    I guess that way forward does not involve acknowledging the identity and motives of the attackers.

  • Jerryskids||

    WDATPDIM?

  • Pan Zagloba||

    Skeletal War was last month, dude...

  • To: Trshmnstr From: Hrod [C]||

    Trigger Warning: CNN

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Mashaba became a self-made millionaire in a country that systematically excluded blacks from economic opportunities."

    If Mashaba were white, Tony would think he was a racist.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    But, since he's black, Tony is sure that he's an Uncle Tom oreo sell-out.

    Tony knows this because he understands that, if a guy appears to have built a successful business with his ingenuity and hard work, he didn't really build it ... somebody else built it. Reasoning from the received wisdom of the Anointed One, Tony understands that, for a black person to enjoy business success, he must sell out to the white power structure, and get the white power structure to build his business.

    The progressive mindset really is that bad, and they really hold black individuals in such low esteem.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Well if one person got wealthy and not everyone else did, obviously something must be wrong.

  • Sevo||

    Well, that's true enough. Sounds like the government is favoring that one guy, and it ought to get out of the way.

  • John Titor||

    Guys, Tony's dead. I mean, come on, if he had any self-respect he would have committed seppuku on Tuesday after assuring us that Clinton would win.

    Or he's somewhere trying to heal his shattered ego, and will show up in a month or two to flip out on us and tell us how he's so much smarter than us because he's read Heidegger.

  • MarkLastname||

    And someone will have to shatter his ego once again by informing him that Heidegger was a Nazi.

  • Sevo||

    "...if he had any self-respect..."

    THAT's funny!

  • Derpetologist||

    Muslim cleric urges Americans "not to be affected by the radicalism of their president"
    link

    Comedy. Gold.

  • Ken Shultz||

    It's not that he's a Muslim.

    It's that al-Sadr is a radical anti-American militia leader.

    I'd question even calling him a cleric. He doesn't even rank a parish priest.

    His prestige comes from his heritage and his militia.

  • Derpetologist||

    There is no derp as pure as California protester derp.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PKhGjpJam8

  • The Fusionist||

    Deported back to Guam...heh heh.

  • The Fusionist||

    They'd be at risk of tipping over!

  • The Fusionist||

    As opposed to overtipping, which is rarely a problem with Democrats.

  • ziggy||

    Or deported back to Japan, which would still be better than what FDR did to them...

  • Juice||

    Whoa. There are tits in the sidebar. I thought youtube was fully anti-tits.

  • Atanarjuat||

    That train sailed several years ago.

  • C. Anacreon||

    It's interesting how it's always white people who say the reason they live somewhere is because they 'love the diversity'. Yet they're always surrounded by other white people agreeing with them, and no doubt the vast majority of their friends are other white people.

    Just because you live in a neighborhood that's got an Eritrean restaurant doesn't make you 'one of the people.'

    Not long ago we were in a little cafe in Oakland, when a young woman who'd been on her Ipad got up to leave and said thank you to the proprietor -- then went into this babbling gush about how much she appreciated getting her coffee in a minority-owned business and she was thankful the cafe was in her neighborhood, she was a big supporter.

    After she walked out -- we were the only ones left with the owner at that point -- the owner looked at us and rolled her eyes. "It's so nice she is a supporter," the Jamaican lady said sarcastically. "She sat here and used the wifi for two hours and bought one coffee. And no tip."

    "I don't need that kind of supporter. I need people who want to spend money here."

  • Lee Genes||

    Burn

  • Derpetologist||

    They might like certain exotic foreign things, but that's it. Very few of them have a genuine interest in other cultures and many of them would be horrified of them if they knew more.

    Take the prog here for example. Jamaica is one of the most homophobic places on the planet. Yet you will never see progs calling for a boycott of Jamaica, because progs believe they are groovy brown people who can do no wrong.

    Meanwhile, Chik-Fila-A must be stopped because the harmless old coot running it said harmless run-of-the-mill old coot things.

  • Ted S.||

    A couple of years back, I heard a report on Radio Sweden's English language program about some Jamaican dancehall artist who was going to perform in the country, and a controversy over the genre's homophobic lyrics. It was fascinating hearing Sweden's gays tie themselves into pretzels trying to rationalize the homophobia coming from a black person.

  • MarkLastname||

    Usually, there's a simple test: start talking about a foreign culture or country. There are the people who want to talk about the art, the cuisine, the music, etc. Then there are those who, within 3 or 4 sentences, can't help but divert to how much better they are than westerners/white people/Americans. The latter of course mainly view other cultures as something to refer to in justification for their sense of moral superiority over other white people/westerners/Americans.

  • epsilon given||

    I've always been mildly amused by the idea of a homophobic, racist, sexist, anti-Catholic, anti-Semite, anti-Communist, anti-Nazi libertarian.

    Someone who would never knowingly trade with, and perhaps even call for boycotts of, those icky queers, blacks, Indians, Irish, Scotsmen, Frechmen, women, Catholics, Jews, Communists, Nazis and who knows what else -- but will NEVER pass a law to force others not to trade with said groups.

    Just imagine if such a person were to come to power, and try to implement his gulags using his principles! "Ok, Mr Icky Person, will you please come with me to a concentration camp? I'd break into your home and point a gun at you and force you onto the cattle car, but that would be aggression, and I'm against initiating aggression, so will you pretty-please come with me?"

    Oooh, a bigoted "I don't care how icky I find you, the worst I will do is refuse to give you my business" libertarian. I'm shaking in my boots for the fear!

  • GILMORE™||

    Yep.

  • 0x90||

    At least she's (the blonde midwestern chick in the video) open about having racial preferences.

  • Juice||

    It's interesting how it's always white people who say the reason they live somewhere is because they 'love the diversity'. Yet they're always surrounded by other white people agreeing with them, and no doubt the vast majority of their friends are other white people.

    Nah, I get that shit around here all the time. I live in the Maryland suburbs of DC and it's plenty diverse. People say they prefer it that way. Usually the people that say that are not white. Sometimes when I say I want to move out of here and tell them some random place I'd rather live they'll say that place isn't diverse enough. Have you ever been there? No? How the hell would you know? Or if it's in the South they'll say something ignorant like "It's only white people living there." Oh really? Guess you've never set foot in the south then.

    And just to be clear, I don't want to move out of here because it's "diverse." I want to move out of here because it sucks to live here. It's expensive, it's hard to get around. It's very difficult to meet people to be friends and hang out and do things, so despite all this "stuff to do" it's actually quite boring. People are generally rude assholes. Not everyone, but that's the general vibe. Just saying.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    #CALEXIT# NOW !!!!11111!!!!!

  • Get To Da Chippah||

    We share a love for freedom (unless you want to secede from California, you racist northern hicks)

  • Derpetologist||

    Funny montage of Never Trumpers:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtrrZUOU_UU

  • LurkinInaBuildin||

    I think any country should take some time for soul-searching and introspection if things get so bad that Dave Chappelle expatriates. I felt the same way when he fled TO South Africa, and now he's back here again.

  • GILMORE™||

    Popular Misconceptions Du Jour

    #2 - " Bernie Could Have Won'

    I will now stop favorably-quoting Freddie DeBoer. But he's not the only one high on these fumes.

    Their argument hinges on the presumption that Bernie would have done "better" in the areas Hillary was weakest in, while all else somehow remained the same.

    As UK Labor helpfully points out = Socialists popular with urban-progressive-types actually do poorly with 'Regular People'.

    Freddie also thinks black voters in particular would have responded better to Bernie's 'Economic Message'.

    That's not just wrong - its wildly wrong. And we'll skip explaining how "jew from brooklyn" isn't very popular with black households either.

    And the "Rust Belt Unionists" Freddy loves? They prefer Machine Politics = Not Campus Socialists. If Hillary failed to appeal to them, Sanders would have done worse. They want Jimmy Hoffa, not Eugene Debs.

    Here's the thing tho = I hope (and expect) the left keeps this delusion. They are going to Prog Harder.

  • The Fusionist||

    I think the *word* "socialist" might still rub swing voters the wrong way, even if the *substance* is often appealing.

    There's a reason they run away from the word.

  • Pathogen||

    "There's a reason they run away from the word."

    A nation-wide lack of shit tickets, and military controlled ration stock piles are often problematic in the minds voting rubes in flyover country. It sticks in their collective craw a bit. Of course, our pragmatic social betters in progland are fully prepared to roll with the punches if it means a better tomorrow for said rubes..

  • Zero Sum Game||

    I will now stop favorably-quoting Freddie DeBoer.

    It's not that he's right on politics. He's right on strategy. The peaceful solution to warring ideologies means isolating and taming the reactionaries and radicals in your own party. You sell people on the rightness of your cause, not by isolating the other side and demonizing them with vicious propaganda.

    Obama tried to build a coalition of genuine bonds between people, and that's respectable. Admirable, even. That's something any politician should be aiming for. Of course, his policies quickly started to erode that once he got elected. It wasn't about reaching across the aisle and clasping the hand of the other guy who didn't vote for you. It was about the effete notion that the ideology was simply better and the other guy should be forced to accede rather than convinced. That emboldened the PC set, which we now call SJWs, and they began pumping toxicity aimed at the other side, but poisoning their own too.

    Some of the proggies really do think they all had the bonds between one another that was promised. Some are angry that their venomous ideology was rebuked. The thing keeping the coalition together was a corral of hatred towards white heterosexual males. Add to that an unlikeable, mendacious, manipulative, warmonger and corporatist, a complicit media, and you've got the recipe for low turnout. Divide the factions, turn them against one another, and conquer the party.

  • GILMORE™||

    You sell people on the rightness of your cause, not by isolating the other side and demonizing them with vicious propaganda.

    yes, i get that. Its just that if he's smart enough to realize basic facts about political-appeals, and how you need to herd different groups together... He should also realize that America will never elect a fucking Communist.

    A ()@#$*(@ muslim would do better. MUCH better.

    The thing keeping the coalition together was a corral of hatred towards white heterosexual males

    And what a winning-concept that is.

    "The glue that holds us together is our contempt for 48% of the population... which also happens to own & run almost everything that matters. Lets shit on them until they do what we want!"

  • Zero Sum Game||

    He should also realize that America will never elect a fucking Communist

    I wholeheartedly agree. It's a foolish ideology, but even master tacticians can have those.

  • Ted S.||

    Obama tried to build a coalition of genuine bonds between people,

    Assumes facts not in evidence.

  • Zero Sum Game||

    I disagree. I think he really did attempt that. He did it so he could ascend the pyramid of people assembled before him and use them for political reasons, definitely. I do think he really did and does believe in his own "healing America's wounds" rhetoric, which is why he was so convincing to so many. It's how you end up with messianic figures - some of them really do genuinely believe in their own legends, their water-into-wine conversion of their farts into emissions that smell of roses.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    Biden would have won easy I think

  • GILMORE™||

    If he'd run in the primaries against hillary, do you think he'd have won? or would Bernie have sucked away so much of the vote that it would have guaranteed him second-place to Hillary's machine?

    He couldn't have secured 100% of the Obama vote in the general either. And had he defeated Hillary in a tough primary wouldnt he have lost many female democrats?

  • John Titor||

    Also, Sanders has fifty years of quotes where he vocally supports brutal revolutionary movements and regimes. That might not mean anything to the 'urban progressive types' but it means a lot to 'normal people'. Saying "this guy praised a woman who invited a political opponent over to her home, murdered him and displayed the body on the street" might help him lose the 'normie' vote.

  • Pathogen||

    "The people's republic of Burlington" was a smashing success.. in VT.. and no where else..

  • MarkLastname||

    Wait, who was this woman who did this?

  • LurkinInaBuildin||

    I read somewhere a few years back that Jo'burg actually has a lower violent crime rate than several major Euopean capitals. I think it was in the Economist or something.

  • GILMORE™||

    I read somewhere a few years back that Jo'burg actually has a lower violent crime rate than several major Euopean capitals.

    Nope

    those data are based on surveys; most actual-crime stats are difficult to compare internationally, but the easiest is "murder" - an Joburg is still in the top-50. Cape Town is worse, but i think Joburg #s are actually lessened by the fact that they try and keep the "bad data" confined to the townships rather than the city-proper

  • BakedPenguin||

    We (US) only have 4 cities in the top 50? Try harder, people!

  • Ken Shultz||

    Further evidence for the theory that the opposite sides of the political spectrum strive to become caricatures their opponents make them out to be, it looks like the new head of the Democratic National Committee will be a Muslim.

    "After his party's brutal Election Day loss, Senator Chuck Schumer, the presumptive incoming Democratic minority leader, threw his support on Friday behind a liberal member of Congress to be the next chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

    Mr. Schumer's choice, Representative Keith Ellison of Minnesota, is a favorite of the party's left. Should he win the chairmanship, he would become one of the Democrats' most visible spokesmen as the party seeks to regroup after losing the White House and an array of state-level offices to a populist wave fueled by white working-class voters."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11.....n-dnc.html

    I guess they couldn't find a really angry lesbian, or something, to signal their contempt properly--so they're going with a Muslim.

    And if putting a Muslim in charge doesn't make middle America stop being racist, then what will?!

    The Democrats really, really, really need to work on their farm team. Winning elections isn't about winning arguments. It's about getting more votes in the right places.

  • SimonD||

    I guess they couldn't find a really angry lesbian, or something, to signal their contempt properly--so they're going with a Muslim.

    They already tried the angry lesbian thing with Debbie Wasserman-Schulz (yeah, I know she's married, but she fits the angry lesbian leftist profile perfectly)

  • Ken Shultz||

    It's amazing how much they want to be held in contempt by the very people they need to vote for them.

  • Juice||

    The Democrats really, really, really need to work on their farm team. Winning elections isn't about winning arguments. It's about getting more votes in the right places.

    They know this. All the emails showing their conniving and colluding with the media and banksters and whatnot shows that they know this fully.

  • ||

    Ellison isnt just muslim. He is harder left than most dems and he is nuts. If they want to finish off their party they couldn't make a better choice.

  • Ken Shultz||

    The Clintons have been controlling the DNC since their days in the White House.

    Now that they're not in a position to control anything, the DNC is just floundering. Like I said, there's no one left to call up from the farm team.

    How many nationally palatable Democrats are there?

    Do they even have any rising stars?

    They may have to reach out of politics to find people.

  • Ted S.||

    Cory Booker?

    Tammy Baldwin will only be 58 at the next presidential election.

  • C. Anacreon||

    One amazing outcome of this election is that suddenly the price to hire Bill or Hillary to speak at your event will plummet. As will the donations to the Clinton Foundation. There will no longer be the possibility of quid pro quo, so what's the point of giving them money?

    Sure, there will always be people wanting to pay them to speak -- Bush 43 still makes a ton on the circuit, for example. But I don't think there will be many paying $300K for a 45-minute talk by a Clinton any more.

  • BakedPenguin||

    From GILMORE's article (emphasis added): "President Obama largely ignored the organization [DNC], charged with building the party's foundation and electing Democrats to office, in favor of his own political group, Organizing for Action."

    Perhaps because of the Clinton connection?

  • ||

    Wow. The world is ending. Chris Matthews is sane and sober:

    Good for him.

  • Pathogen||

    It's the Xanax...

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    I've had a lot of fun playing with progs at work this week, and they don't even know it.
    Hysterical prog: We need to have an IQ test or something before you can vote.
    Me: that's a great Idea
    HP: We need to fix taxes so fucks like trump can't use all these loopholes
    Me: I totally agree
    HP: I can't believe people voted for a criminal who's gonna start a bunch wars
    Me: I know, right?

    This is the closest we've been to a libertarian moment in 200 years, even if most people don't realize it.

  • Ken Shultz||

    I've been having the same kinds of conversations with people--especially those who think you're a progressive--because they respect you.

    "We need to have an IQ test or something before you can vote."

    Me: That's racist.

    "We need to fix taxes so fucks like trump can't use all these loopholes."

    Me: Not taxing losses isn't a loophole. Should we tax unemployed people for not making any income?

    "I can't believe people voted for a criminal who's gonna start a bunch wars"

    Me: I can't believe people voted against a criminal who was gonna start a bunch of wars!

    It isn't enough that progressives failed at the ballot box.

    They must also know that their most basic assumptions are not shared by people all around them.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    I guess I should have mentioned that it was a black guy who suggested the IQ test.

    I seriously can't even, I'm enjoying this so much.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    Should have read girl

  • Ken Shultz||

    Instead of calling her "racist", I suppose we might call passing an IQ test before being allowed to vote "elitist".

  • Lee Genes||

    I thought standardized tests were racist.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Pointing out to a black woman that her suggestion is racist probably isn't going to help you make friends and influence people.

    If you can get the same effect by going elsewhere, . . .

    I don't know. Maybe I'm being a hypocrite, but, at some point, even my appetite for smearing it in people's faces starts to break down.

    And what works to make a white progressive reconsider their stance may not work as well on black woman.

    White progressives don't want to be racist--because that would make them like the people they're trying to hate.

    You make a black woman worried about thinking like a racist, but I bet she doesn't want to feel like an elitist. So I'd go with that.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "You [can't] make a black woman worried about thinking like a racist, but I bet she doesn't want to feel like an elitist. So I'd go with that."

    FIXED!

  • Nunya||

    And point out that first we would have to get voter ID passed so we can track IQs.

  • Juice||

    She must be really young and she doesn't know the history of "IQ tests" for voting.

  • Ken Shultz||

    $10 says she's repeating something she saw a white progressive say somewhere.

    I've heard that from progressives in California many times.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Also, California's budget wouldn't have been in trouble if it weren't for Prop 13--and Sacramento had more money to spend.

    That one always gets me going.

  • Derpetologist||

    So now Bill Maher and friends has taken to wearing a hat that says "we're still here". If only Clinton had hats with a slogan on them, she'd have won the election.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1s-TqzhwEk

  • Derpetologist||

  • Juice||

    Goddamn these people are so shortsighted. One of these days a Dem will win without winning the popular vote and they'll praise the founders for being so smart.

  • SparktheRevolt||

    JFK did, aka Liberal God

  • Sevo||

    So they admit they were lying about running to Canada and they're bragging about it?
    Did Canada tell them there were enough retards north of the border already?

  • Ted S.||

    He's here, he's queer, get used to it?

  • Derpetologist||

    I see progs are already working feverishly to lose the next election:
    "Stop Asking Me to Empathize With the White Working Class"

    http://www.alternet.org/electi.....king-class

    Well, at least it's honest. Their whole movement is based on disgust and hatred for white men.

  • John Titor||

    "Stop Asking Me to Understand Why We Lost, I Prefer to Just Double-Down on My Shitty Behaviour."

  • Lee Genes||

    It's all identity groups, all the time.

    They're too stupid to understand that identity politics are a one way ticket to their own destruction. If they keep beating that drum, the backlash will fulfill their worst expectations. They are the minority after all.

    And if they do succeed by some weird happenstance, they will eat each other in an orgy of violence competing for the top spot.

    This is all an outgrowth of the fact that individualism is incompatible with communism.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    I watched some clips from Morning Joke, earlier, because... I did.

    Michael Moore was on, and he briefly sounded sane; briefly. Then they got down to business. Lots of slobbery Obama worship, et c. Lots of "not my President" jibber jabber among the nodders, lots of, " whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; ... "

    I got the distinct impression many of the progressive chatterers now see themselves as the inheritors of the moral tradition of the French Resistance.

    I am amused.

  • Lee Genes||

    It's closer to the moral traditions of the French Revolution

  • Derpetologist||

    Paul Krugman provides Thoughts for the Horrified

    I myself spent a large part of the Day After avoiding the news, doing personal things, basically taking a vacation in my own head.

    Oh Krugman. You've been living in your own head for a long time now.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11......html?_r=0

  • SimonD||

    Dammit, I had Krugman in the pool to pick the first Prog's head to completely explode.

  • Pathogen||

    He didn't have access to a firearm, and he lacks the dexterity to maneuver his toe to the trigger.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    I don't think Krugman the person gives a shit.

    Krugman the persona of newspaper columnist is a fictional entity and is thus safe from explosion.

    Seriously, I am willing to lay $100 on 2:1 odds that he saw results, went "OK, what do I toss to hold the little SOBs" then went to sleep knowing that he'll be fine and world won't end. And, that his column writing just got 25% easier for the next four years.

  • C. Anacreon||

    Deep down, the Rachel Maddows, Krugmans, NY Times columnists, etc, etc must be happy as pigs in shit right now.

    They know they've got guaranteed jobs and opinion pieces that will practically write themselves through 2020.

    Nothing like having a flawed leader of your opposition to ensure job stability. If there'd never been a Clinton presidency, we'd likely never heard of Rush Limbaugh et al.

  • MarkLastname||

    Yeah, he may well go back to 'normal' Paul Krugman mode now that he's not pining for a position.

    Also, Krugman knows that he actually agrees with a decent chunk of Trump's economic positions. He wrote an article during the primaries praising Trump on healthcare.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Michael Moore said, in reference to the meeting between Trump and Obama, "All Obama needed was a t-shirt that said, 'I'm with stupid'."

    Durr-hurrrr! So funny. So wise. So TRUE.

  • Lee Genes||

    I thought it was the Republicans who had no interest in governing.

  • Derpetologist||

    Moore has a poor track record on persuading people. After Bowling For Columbine, gun ownership increased and gun restrictions decreased. After Fahrenheit 9/11, Bush got re-elected. Sicko did help push healthcare reform, but not the kind he wanted.

    The GOP should fund him.

  • GILMORE™||

    indeed

  • Derpetologist||

    "Democratic strategist David Axelrod set off a firestorm Friday night when he told Bill Maher's Real Time panel that he doesn't believe that President-elect Donald Trump is a racist."

    What you believe is true. At least that's what morons tell me.

  • Lee Genes||

    When David Axelrod is too far right for the Democratic mob, they're in trouble.

  • Nunya||

    Or we're in trouble.

  • Zero Sum Game||

    Government loves me, this I know, the main-stream media told me so.

  • Derpetologist||

    Mother of the year kicks out 7 year old son for voting for Trump in mock election, posts video online:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDaigGsM5rU

  • Ted S.||

    Why do I have the feeling that's a false-flag operation?

  • Christophe||

    Either way, it's getting airtime because it confirms people's biases about the "other side". Much like the "neonazis like Trump" stories during the election.

    Yes there are crazy people out there, but assuming you're right because you found a crazy person that holds the opposite opinion is not a good strategy.

  • Sevo||

    "Yes there are crazy people out there, but assuming you're right because you found a crazy person that holds the opposite opinion is not a good strategy."

    Leave Clinton out of this!

  • ||

    That doesn't look like too bad of a neighborhood they live in. Their house looks pretty nice too.

    What a fucking asshole mother.

  • C. Anacreon||

    Well, Child Protective Services and the County Sheriff are taking it pretty seriously. Great parenting there, mom.

  • CZmacure||

    Cheerleading for CPS intervening in a parent instilling their chosen values in their kids... on a libertarian website?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    it looks like the new head of the Democratic National Committee will be a Muslim.

    And why, pray tell, should I give a fuck?

  • Lee Genes||

    Because it's a symbol of protest. Because which group you identity with is all that matters.

  • Rhywun||

    Because he's going to be lecturing us non-stop for the next 4 years?

  • Lee Genes||

    It won't be him lecturing us. It will be the white Democrats who will constantly lecture us while pointing at Ellison as the token Muslim who they elevated simply because they wanted to send a message, not because of his ideas.

    His skin and religion are simply conveniences to them in their pursuit of nose-thumbing.

  • Jerry on the sea||

    If anything, I really hope the Democrats appoint someone in the mold of Jeremy Corbyn to be national chair. What could go wrong?

  • __Warren__||

    Jeremy Corbyn can't out charisma an eggplant.

    http://news.images.itv.com/ima.....te_img.jpg

  • Christophe||

    He's a pretty hard core prog apparently, so I suspect he'll be fully involved in the lecturing.

  • Jerryskids||

    People are under the impression that capitalism is about exploitation. In 1980, when I decided that I have to work, I worked for [the retail chain] Spar earning 1,875 rands a month (about $150). If Spar thought they exploited me, they made a terrible mistake. Was I happy with that R1,875? Absolutely not. I hated it. But I was so grateful for the opportunity. For me, I exploited them, because they didn't know what my agenda was. I needed experience.

    And people are correct to have the impression that capitalism is about explotation. Mutual exploitation, where each party to a transaction thinks they got the better end of the deal. Cf, "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest."

  • Derpetologist||

    Chris Matthews, upon learning that Trump won NC: "Well, that's a bitch."
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg6sDWEKt20

    I want to believe he shotgunned 3 or 4 cans of Camo Black after he got off work that night.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    And people are correct to have the impression that capitalism is about explotation. Mutual exploitation, where each party to a transaction thinks they got the better end of the deal.

    Exactly. It infuriates me when I see people completely discounting the value of one side of a voluntary exchange. If you steal fifty bucks from me, that's exploitation. If you trade me something which I value more highly than that little portrait of President Grant, that's mutually beneficial.

  • Nunya||

    Beneficial is when you give the government the Grant and they return a Jackson to you with promises they did great stuff with the remainder. You can't see what they did, but it was great. Had you instead done something with that Grant it would have been misused, racially divided, and likely bad for the environment.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    OT: Feel the love as it trumps hate.

  • Rhywun||

    More of this, please.

  • CatoTheChipper||

    The love is in the embedded video.

    The comments -- both from sane liberals and conservatives -- are actually pretty good.

  • ||

    Okay. I'm really idiotic. Here's the video about Matthews above.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxGPDBRUzs

    Maddow is the perfect candidate for a cult.

  • __Warren__||

    Slender Man already has a sort-of cult.

  • Ken Shultz||

    I haven't paid much attention to him for more than 10 years, but I remember Matthews as always having been fair and honest.

    He's wrong a lot, but my issue isn't with old school honest liberals for being wrong.

    Maddow is the posterperson for intellectual dishonesty. Anybody who thinks they know anything because they heard it from Maddow is a victim.

  • ||

    Obama cancelled a photo-op with Trump as is customary.

    Their true colours keep showing.

  • Hamster of Doom||

    Kinda.

    As I understand, they never scheduled photographers for the customary First Couples On The Southern Lawn. The White House prioritized the president and president-elect's tete-a-tete, getting that out there in the media. Not bothering to schedule can be considered cancelling in a certain light, sure, but there is at least some room here.

    Also, the pictures are customary, true, but then so is the public release of a presidential candidate's tax returns.

    I never voted for Obama and don't like him, but I was willing to give that one to Trump so I kind of feel I owe the benefit of doubt, just this once, to Obama. He might not have been trying to be an obnoxious overweening tit this time.

  • Lee Genes||

    The man never misses a photo op.

  • Sevo||

    "Donald Trump is about to face a rude awakening over Obamacare"
    http://www.sfgate.com/news/art.....610353.php

    I'll save you the time:
    Lefty twit discovers O-care doesn't work, figures Trump is stuck with it.
    It could be; no one ever called Trump a brave libertarian candidate, but why didn't this twit warn Obo three years ago?

  • Christophe||

    The author is mostly correct that repealing Obamacare is pretty much an all-or-nothing proposition.

    If Trump is promising to keep the community-rating bits of Obamacare while getting rid of the individual insurance mandate, he's going to have to break one of the two promises, or insurance companies will start failing even faster.

    Where the author goes wrong is in assuming that the individual mandate is sufficient to avoid a death spiral: It slows it down somewhat, but as long as premiums are high enough compared to the penalty some healthy people will decide to not get coverage.

  • Lee Genes||

    They could do a few things.

    Let the insurers break up the coverage options. Get rid of the mandates. Get rid of the infinite lifetime limit.

    None of this is to say that it would save it.

  • GILMORE™||

    The author is mostly correct that repealing Obamacare is pretty much an all-or-nothing proposition.

    90% of what "obamacare" IS.... is just an expansion of Medicaid.

    Most of the "newly insured" don't even have fuck-all to do with the exchanges.

    You can blow up/remove or merely modify the exchange system and you'd still have that very-large expansion of medicaid in place.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Mistrial in Cincinnati for cop who shot missing front license plate violator in head

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016.....ocked.html

  • GILMORE™||

  • Password: pode$ta||

    Wasn't this a joke Snoop Dogg made at the Donald Trump roast way back in the day?

  • Password: pode$ta||

    43 seconds in

    Actually a couple of decent one-liners in there.

  • ||

    The joke I had heard, is it would be the first time a white millionaire moved into public housing that had been previously lived in by a black family.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Trump Evicts....

    Nice.

  • ||

    Let's juxtapose:

    Trump: Won't take a salary:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/di.....president/

    Hillary: Self-entitled sociopath:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdfqIpNnxsk

  • Pathogen||

    Yet, both have the credibility of a rattlesnake, and the moral fiber of a landmine...

  • BakedPenguin||

    Bill Burr on the election. As usual, he's pretty funny.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "I want to vote for Trump, but I'm afraid if do, we'll lose Cher".

    LOL

  • Ken Shultz||

    "I have some really strong feelings about gun control, but let me check in with Sean Penn first--see what he has to say"

    LOL

  • Pan Zagloba||

    I made it 3/4 of the way through and then ragequit at "You know what's the most amazing thing on the planet? Broke-ass people who are Republicans."

    Nope. Never will you ever get it. Fucking hell, after everything and you still hammer on that shit?!

  • BakedPenguin||

    I won't vouch for everything he says, but at least he goes after both conservatives and liberals. He sure as hell is no fan of Hillary.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    I'm just beyond tired of "You are poor. Why don't you want to rob people richer than you and take their stuff? Also, I despise literally everything about you, but it's for your own good - I want you to be more like me*. So I'll give you all this stuff I want you to have if you give me power over your life. WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID?!"

    *of course, we both understand you'll never be quite like me. just look at yourself, ugh.

  • C. Anacreon||

    I don't know how many times I've tried to explain to lefty friends that just because someone else is filthy rich, it doesn't hurt me a bit -- in fact, it probably makes my life better because whatever product or service it was that made them wealthy is something that I use myself.

    They all seem to believe that wealth is zero-sum and because of "income inequality!" someone is getting too much pie and not leaving anything for anyone else. Add that to their envy, and resentment that anyone can make more than they do, and it can get rather ugly.

    A couple of weeks ago a friend posted on Derpbook that it's disgusting that the Walton family is so wealthy while the Walmart employees are only making $10 an hour. It took all my restraint to keep from writing back "you do understand that their wealth is from the value of their stock, not that they take the lion's share of each Walmart purchase that could have gone to employee wages, right?"

    An interesting piece in the Reason print version recently told about the kidnappers of Patty Hearst, who while abducting her went around the Hearst mansion tearing paintings off the wall, screaming "where's the damn safe?" They actually thought that rich people kept all their wealth in stacks of greenbacks in a safe hidden inside their home.

    No doubt many of the income inequality complainers have the same concept, of the rich stealing cash from the poor, and hiding it in mattresses so that no one else can benefit.

  • Raven Nation||

    Most leftists have a narrow view of how wealth is accumulated because it comes from wealthy leftists they know of e.g. inherited (Kennedys), crony capitalists, rock stars, etc.

  • To: Trshmnstr From: Hrod [C]||

    The Millionaire Next Door should be required reading in high school.

  • John Titor||

    L.A. comedian, doesn't exactly hang out in Hyde Park, self-described "loud guy at the bar", Massachusetts white-collar upbringing. You've got to crawl in the dirt with the plebs once and awhile to 'get it'.

  • John Titor||

    Actually watched it now. I got as far as him saying Obama is a good public speaker.

    "I am saying things in a rhythmic way...and now I will say something important, so I. Will. Stress. Every. Word. Now I am being flippant, so I will say words faster and in an exaggerated way. Now I have something more important to say...SO I WILL SAY IT LOUDER, AND STRESS. EVERY. WORD. AGAIN."

    'Hackneyed and stiff' doesn't equate to 'good oratory' to me.

  • John Titor||

    Oh, and now he's saying that Republicans are treasonous for not passing everything Obama wants. Because Cult of the President. And the whole concept of political compromise or actual limitations of power mean anything. Christ Burr is a moron.

    Fuck it I'm done.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    Sometimes I let it my mind slip. Sometimes I forget. Then reality throws a bucket of cold water and awakens me

    "Do. NOT. Trust. Fucking Commies!"

    Fucking leftist bastards. Fuck them all.

    I swear to God I don't believe in, the fucking US "comedians" and related idiots could turn me into a Falangist if you gave them "Tell us why Franco was a bad man" topic.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    And on that topic, American atheists, I'm in awe of your patience and understanding. Listening to idiots like Burr would have made me go "fuck this shit, I'm out" and become an Opus Dei Catholic in six months. Or at the very least, go into a Serbian Orthodox church for the...second?..time in my life.

  • John Titor||

    That's because American atheists are, in the vast majority, like Bill Burr. The criticism I always throw at the 'New Atheist' movement is that many of them don't believe in God, and then immediately believe they can become God. Everything can be micromanaged and controlled to form their little heaven on earth. They become technocrats because they're so in awe of their own 'intellect'.

    When I flipped to atheist I jumped into the New Atheist groups, thinking that they existed for things like supporting atheist or gay teens that got kicked out of religious households. Instead I found a collection of people obsessed with conversion and convinced of their own materialist utopia. Only option was to flee and never look back.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    Maybe I should have said "Reason American atheists" instead :)

  • BakedPenguin||

    My bad, guys. I thought a lot of it was funny, and I liked the general 'pox on both houses' enough to overlook the crap.

  • Pan Zagloba||

    Hey, it's cool. It's just like...fourth time I've heard the same narrative since Tuesday. It always starts with "OK, let's pretend to be reasonable and argue that identity policy is bad" and ends with "SOCIALISM HARDER YOU IDIOTS."

    Burr just added a completely idiotic slam at...well...identity politics of how poor people who vote Republicans are so Stupid, and fall for Rich Evil People propaganda. They learned nothing. They are gonna run lefter next time. And whenever they do win, it'll be Obama presidency, doubled.

  • MarkLastname||

    Bill Burr is pretty funny, especially when he's trashing feminism, identity politics, or celebrities. He's actually one of the only comedians I like.

    Politically, he's basically a working class Irish populist-type; he definitely has inclinations toward the 'fuck the rich' mentality and likes to complain about bankers and whatnot; to his credit though, he routinely prefaces his rants with disclaimers that he knows he's an idiot an doesn't know what he's talking about, and is just ranting for the sake of comedic value.

    Also, being in his line of work, surrounded by leftists 24/7, living in LA, being married to a progressive black woman, he has to pick his battles.

  • Password: pode$ta||

  • AlmightyJB||

    Do they replace Pelosi? If so, will it be with someone even more insane?

    http://hotair.com/archives/201.....osi-again/

  • Lee Genes||

    Pelosi won't leave without a fight. That woman is tenacious.

  • AlmightyJB||

    She's going to be the Keith Richards of Congress

  • Sevo||

    Keith has aged better. And he's smarter.

  • ||

    The only thing the left do is finding someone more insane. Why the fuck would anyone want to be a leftist if they're not insane?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Anyone gonna man up and brave SNL tonight and report back?

  • Ted S.||

    I'm up by 4:30 on weekdays, so I'm usually in bed relatively early even on weekends.

  • ||

    Hell no, I'm not watching that partisan hackery. I laughed when they made fun of Dubyah, 'one of them Koreas', lol Then Obama was a comedy goldmine and they remained silent. Fuck them, I don't find their partisan bullshit amusing at all anymore.

  • Sevo||

    Agreed.
    The local rag continues to pitch local comedians with 'edgy' humor: Bush jokes:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW4dYG9VjgA

  • ||

    The left are falling apart before our very eyes. I'm enjoying this very much. Please let this scourge which has plagued mankind for more than 100 years now and oppressed and killed 100s of millions of human beings, finally die the horrible death that it deserves. It's just as simple as this, leftism is a hateful and failed ideology. It is the ideology of envy and nothing more. If you support leftism, you are at best a useful idiot. Just let it die already.

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