Trump Administration Sued for Violating Foreign Students' Free Speech Rights
The First Amendment protects everybody from the government, whether citizen or not.
U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio boasts of revoking the visas of foreign students for engaging in protests and voicing their opinions. It's easy to sympathize with his sentiments about the often hateful and pro-terrorist beliefs of some of these students. But offending government officials—even when it involves saying awful things—is a time-honored practice in the United States, and the government is forbidden to punish anybody for speech alone. As a result, the Trump administration is rightfully being sued for violating the First Amendment rights of foreign students in the U.S.
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Detained for an Op-Ed
In March, asked by a Reuters reporter about the arrest of "a Turkish student in Boston" who "wrote an opinion piece about the Gaza war," Rubio replied, "We revoked her visa…. If you apply for a visa to enter the United States and be a student and you tell us that the reason why you're coming to the United States is not just because you want to write op-eds, but because you want to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings, creating a ruckus, we're not going to give you a visa."
The student in question was Rumeysa Ozturk, a grad student in Tuft University's Child Study and Human Development program. She co-wrote what on campuses these days is a depressingly boilerplate opinion piece for The Tufts Daily demanding the university "acknowledge the Palestinian genocide" and "divest from companies with direct or indirect ties to Israel." Unlike some of the other students who have had their visas yanked after being accused of activities that crossed the line into trespassing, vandalism, and other crimes, that appears to be the extent of her activism. It got her handcuffed and detained by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).
At a federal judge's order, Ozturk was freed from incarceration after 45 days and promptly wrote for Vanity Fair about her unpleasant experience in a grim Louisiana detention center. But she did more; she found allies at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) who are suing the federal government over her case and that of other students who have been targeted by the administration for their constitutionally protected speech.
Lawsuit Challenges Multiple Deportation Actions
"In the United States of America, no one should fear a midnight knock on the door for voicing the wrong opinion," comments FIRE attorney Conor Fitzpatrick. "Free speech isn't a privilege the government hands out. Under our Constitution it is the inalienable right of every man, woman, and child."
The complaint points out that "a DHS spokesperson justified the revocation by asserting Öztürk's editorial '[g]lorif[ied] and support[ed] terrorists.'" Other government officials have been equally blunt in conceding that students have been targeted for what they say. In an interview with NPR, Deputy Homeland Security Secretary Troy Edgar said Mahmoud Khalil was detained for "promoting this antisemitism activity," "agitating and supporting Hamas," and "basically pro-Palestinian activity."
Like others who have been detained, Khalil may have done more, but a White House official told The Free Press that "the allegation here is not that he was breaking the law." That is, it's the opinions that those who have been targeted voice that concern the administration.
The First Amendment Protects Everybody
And here's the thing: The First Amendment to the Constitution prohibits the government from punishing people for their speech except in very limited circumstances. Some people claim the Bill of Rights applies only to citizens, but that's not the case in its wording or its philosophical foundations.
In 2014, then-Supreme Court Justices Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg appeared together for an interview on C-SPAN.
"To whom does the First Amendment apply," interviewer Marvin Kalb asked them as he presented questions from the audience. "Do undocumented immigrants have the five freedoms" of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition?
"Oh, I think so," Scalia replied. "I think anybody who is present in the United States has protections under the United States Constitution."
"When we get to the Fourteenth Amendment it doesn't speak of citizens," Ginsburg added. "Some constitutions grant rights to 'citizens,' but our constitution says 'persons.' And the person is every person who is here, documented or undocumented."
Scalia, it should be noted, was a prominent conservative jurist after whom George Mason University's law school is now named. Ginsburg held equivalent status among liberals. Both agreed that the U.S. Constitution protects the rights of even undocumented aliens; they would certainly agree, as courts have held, that the First Amendment applies to the speech of foreigners who are here legally.
The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It doesn't grant any rights at all. Instead, like other constitutional protections, it restrains government from violating what the Declaration of Independence describes as natural "unalienable rights."
In its complaint, FIRE emphasizes this point, arguing that "America's founding principle, core to who and what we are as a Nation, is that liberty comes not from the benevolent hand of a king, but is an inherent right of every man, woman, and child." But, the complaint adds, "Secretary of State Marco Rubio and the Trump administration are trying to turn the inalienable human right of free speech into a privilege contingent upon the whims of a federal bureaucrat."
Deportations Have a Chilling Effect
Even foreign students who haven't been arrested suffer when government officials treat liberty as a privilege that they can revoke at will. Among the plaintiffs is The Stanford Daily, for whom foreign students have become hesitant to write on controversial topics—or at all.
"There's real fear on campus and it reaches into the newsroom," Greta Reich, editor in chief of The Stanford Daily, commented in a statement. "I've had reporters turn down assignments, request the removal of some of their articles, and even quit the paper because they fear deportation for being associated with speaking on political topics, even in a journalistic capacity."
Again, the issue isn't whether what these foreign students say is good or bad—much of it is obnoxious—but that they have a right to say it without fear of punishment. Free speech protection is for everybody.
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They are being deported. Buh-bye bitches.
"Wisdom" according to Chumpy-Humpy-Dumpy Simp-Chimp-Chump; DR... DeRanged... Stranger Danger!!! THE Moist DeRanged Stranger of ALL!!! ...
"Well, yes, sometimes, maybe, persons are persons, perhaps... Especially if they look, talk, and act like MEEEE... Butt... Butt... But Shitler and Mao and Stalin and Trump are CORRECT Persons, and illegal sub-humans ARE illegal sub-humans! So shit is CUMMENDABLE, it shivers me jisms, to turn their skin into 50 lampshades of gray, black, white and brown, and into blow-up baby dolls ass swell!"
“The First Amendment protects everybody from the government, whether citizen or not.”
Nope.
Yep.
Note: Trump supporters aren't very bright nor capable of rational argument. So, just trying to keep it simple.
Wrong. I get that you’re a retarded democrat and aren’t capable and aren’t willing to understand things, but i will attempt to get through to you.
When foreigners are issued a VISA, there are terms and conditions. One of which concerns their speech and conduct. Any alleged violations are determined by the Secretary of State. Period. This supersedes any perceived 1st amendment rights,
Being a democrat, you will likely screech that his is unconstitutional. It is not. Individuals, citizen or otherwise, regularly sign contracts that supersede free speech rights, you yourself have done this at least hundreds of times in your life. Every time you enter into an employment contract, enter a place of business, enlist in the military, etc.. your speexh is limited to some extent.
This is no different just because you want open borders. So now i have corrected you and straightened you out,
Feel free to thank me.
Yep.
Literally straight from Congress.gov with citations. Read em and weep.
I don't think the world can be divided into "citizens" and "non-citizens", students are in the country on conditional visas (for example, if they stop attending school, their academic visa is revoked, or if someone with a work visa loses their job and can't find a new sponsor/employer, they have to leave).
While the 1st Amendment (as well as all the others) may apply universally to both citizens and non-citizens, some non-citizens have additional conditions they agreed to when the accepted their visas and came to America.
I do not know if student visas have the equivalent of a "morals clause" that requires them to be (effectively) non-political, or at least conditions their visa on not working against stated U.S. interests and policies.
I've heard that argument asserted in several places, but I am not in a position to verify it immediately - I offer it up for consideration, not as a statement of fact.
Some people might think Americans are stupid. Like for voting for Trump. Thanks for clearing up the doubt.
You’re next!
And that makes you happy? You’d look at deportation of American citizens as a good thing?
It is a parody account, like yours. Why is the default for this parody account that the person behind it is an American citizen?
Poe’s law. Your account sounds a lot like Jesse and his merry band of hatemongers. Not like parody at all.
But I guess if you think my consistent and detailed posts supporting libertarian ideals is a parody account, it explains why you think everyone would think yours was, too.
Yup. Parody.
So the United States is obligated to import people who advocate for the violent overthrow of Western Civilization and a free speech regime?
Why are they here?
So it's okay to ban "hate speech" now?
So it’s okay to import “hate speech” now?
Open borders at all costs, right Fatfuck?
Hate speech from visitors on conditional visas may not be as protected as some might think.
“ who advocate for the violent overthrow of Western Civilization”
Yes. That’s what the “speech” part of free speech means. If they actually engage in terrorism or violence, that’s a completely different kettle of fish. And no, if the guy next to them does something, you can’t deport them for his actions.
"Greta Reich, editor in chief of The Stanford Daily, commented in a statement. "I've had reporters turn down assignments, request the removal of some of their articles, and even quit the paper because they fear deportation for being associated with speaking on political topics, even in a journalistic capacity.""
Exactly what percentage of the student newspaper staff are foreign nationals?
Exactly what percentage of the student newspaper staff are illegal sub-humans, trannies, accused “groomers”, abortionists, gays, heathens, infidels, unbelievers, vaxxers, mask-wearers, atheists, dirty hippies, commies, Jews, witches, or, the very WORST of them all, those who are "into" being some of those accused of STEALING THE ERECTIONS OF OUR DEAR LEADER?!?!?!?
WE NEED AN INQUISITION into this, cumducted by Our Congress of REAL Men, REAL Women, and REAL Lizard People!
I am sorry, you are the one in the position of defending the anti-semites.
I was just curious that there seem so many foreigners on the student paper staff that this is happening multiple times. It makes me skeptical of the claim.
Questioning the disproportionate violence of the Israeli Government Almighty... Look into the recent numbers of Israelis killed v/s Gazans killed... Is now antisemitism? Was it anti-German to question Shitler? Is shit anti-American to question American Government Almighty, or only if MY favorite political party is in power?
Reichsquirrel Josef Squoebbels wants them to burn.
“ I am sorry, you are the one in the position of defending the anti-semites.”
No, Simple Simon. We are in the position of defending free speech. There are people who use their right to say stupid and hateful things (witness the paleocons in these comments). That’s the “free” part of free speech. It isn’t a right to nice speech. Many, many people use it to say awful things. Defending their right to do so isn’t advocating or supporting what they are saying.
Do you understand the concept of principles and ideals? Or are you 100% outcome-oriented and transactional?
Who cares? The point is that people fear legal action for saying things that offend the administration. That's something straight out of East Germany. And you are defending it. Shame on you.
As these aliens should. Congress did in fact authorize deportations for advocating for terrorism, and laws that set the terms and conditions for the admission and exclusion of aliens are subject only to "limited judicial review". Fiallo v. Bell, 430 U.S. 787, 795fn.6 See also Harisiades v. Shaughnessy, 342 U. S. 580 (1952), cited in Fiallo, 430 U.S. at 792
Yes, I know that you, just like the leftists you hate, only respect the Constitution when convenient. You champion the phrase "shall not be infringed" and spit on the phrase "Congress shall make no law" all because of who, not what. No principles at all. Again, shame on you.
I have Supreme Court precedent on my side.
Just like Roe v. Wade!
And Wickard.
Appeal to authority much?
You have no explained why the Supreme Court should overrule Harisiades or Fiallo.
Sarc shrieks and cries like a little pussy. Sarc doesn’t explain.
It is legal case. The Supreme Court is the actual final authority on interpreting law. Referring to what the precedent is in such cases is not a fallacy.
Lol!
God damn. This is retarded even for you. Especially after demanding judicial supremacy the last 6 months.
Who has authority of the constitution retard? A retarded drunk in Maine or SCOTUS?
When the town drunk is also the village idiot you get sarcles.
Judges are only right when they illegally rule against Trump.
Scotus has upheld those terms retard.
Sarc is not a lawyer. You know why? He’d never be able to pass the bar.
“ Congress did in fact authorize deportations for advocating for terrorism”
Hyperbole is the argument of the weak. Being anti-Israel or opposing the Israeli government isn’t advocating for terrorism.
The fear the violations of the terms of their visa will be enforced.
Fixed it for you.
Which terms, exactly? You keep saying this, but run away when I ask.
It’s almost like you don’t have reason beyond “Trump’s government says so and the government never lies”.
Well, considering the average American student cannot read nor write, I would bet a high percentage.
“ Exactly what percentage of the student newspaper staff are foreign nationals?”
Why does that matter? Is there a threshold for free speech? If it’s 20%, then they get free speech, but anything under they don’t?
.. speaking on political topics, even in a journalistic capacity
Journalists do not have expanded rights.
Speaking and writing are now "expanded rights". Are You PervFectly willing to have this NEW, un-cunts-tits-tuitional "understanding" applied to PervFected (and Mind-Infected) YOU after the next elections turn out against YOU and Yours?
Is Your PervFected Mind even capable of understanding this concept? Or do You Pervfectly lust for a perpetual Dick-Tator-Shit in YOUR favor?
But journalism has expanded with lefts
Why harp on the left-tits? Left-tits and right-tits, in harmony and balance, can be BEAUTIFUL!!!
Oh no, leftists overreact and leftist propagandists like TooSilly run with it without examination. If they were journalists and not Hamas propagandists they might be a bit biased but not so much as to really be concerned.
Are you super concerned about the 1A violation inherent in every NDA? How is this really different? It's a minor restriction of not advocating the destruction of the West and America in particular while being a guest of this country.
I know. I mean supporting Palestinians is probably OK... I know. we label them as support Hamas and then point out that Hamas is terrible and they kill 1000 people... That get them!
Note: we will of course ignore the 60,000 Israel has killed. We will label that as justified.
Just puke out those Hamas casualty numbers that have been discredited, just like a baby’s pablum, right?
It makes sense. As a Democrat, you are a terror supporter. So Hamas are like your brothers.
You're analysis is flawed. The law allows the Secretary of State to revoke visas based on the Secretary of State's determinations. That alone means everyone with a visa doesn't have the same constitutional rights as citizens and legal, permanent residents. Meaning they lack freedom of speech rights in the US. The lawsuit will ultimately be tossed when a competent court gets it before them.
The USA is already being turned from Reagan's Shining City of Liberty, Shining From The Hilltop, into an Orange Swamp of Despotism, Cuntrol by Government Almighty, and Economic Fascism. And You want to PervFectly grease the wheels for MORE fascism? Speech-cuntrol fascism all around, or "merely" for all of the WRONG people?
Correct.
According to the Supreme Court, aliens seeking initial entry into the United States have no constitutional rights regarding their applications for admission.1 The Court has reasoned that the government has the inherent, sovereign authority to admit or exclude aliens, and that aliens standing outside of the geographic boundaries of the United States have no vested right to be admitted into the country.2
Thus, in its 1953 decision in Shaughnessy v. United States ex rel. Mezei, the Court held that the government could deny entry to an alien without a hearing, notwithstanding the alien’s temporary harborage on Ellis Island pending the government’s attempts to remove him from the United States.3 More recently, in Department of Homeland Security v. Thuraissigiam, the Court in 2020 rejected an alien’s constitutional challenge to a federal statute that limits judicial review of an expedited order of removal, reasoning that the alien—who was apprehended shortly after entering the United States unlawfully—could be considered to be an applicant for admission at the border.4 In short, for aliens seeking admission into the United States, the decision to permit or deny entry by an executive or administrative officer, acting within powers expressly conferred by Congress, is due process of law.5
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5-6-2-2/ALDE_00013725/
Thanks for posting. Certainly helps explain things.
U.S. citizens have also asserted that the exclusion of an alien has impinged upon their due process rights.9 In Kerry v. Din, five Justices in 2015 agreed that denying an immigrant visa to the husband of a U.S. citizen on the grounds that he was inadmissible under a provision of federal immigration law (pertaining to terrorist activities) did not violate the due process rights of the U.S. citizen spouse.10 These Justices differed in their reasoning, though. A three-Justice plurality held that the U.S. citizen spouse had no protected liberty interest under the Due Process Clause in her husband’s ability to come to the United States, and did not decide whether the government had established a facially legitimate and bona fide reason for excluding her husband.11 A two-Justice concurrence did not reach the question of whether the U.S. citizen wife had asserted a protected liberty interest, but instead concluded that the consular officials’ citation of a particular statutory ground for inadmissibility as the basis for denying the visa application satisfied due process under Mandel, which requires only that the government state a facially legitimate and bona fide reason for the denial.12
That is all pre-admission. Holding someone in customs means they are not actually, legally, "in" the country.
We are talking about students that have visas and are having their visas pulled because they say something against Trump's feelings.
They violated the contract they had which provided them permission to remain in the US as a guest. They played a stupid game and just win a prize: a trip back home.
You mean having their VISAs pulled because they violated the written terms to which they agreed. Funny how you aren’t capable or willing to understand that part.
“ In short, for aliens seeking admission into the United States, the decision to permit or deny entry by an executive or administrative officer, acting within powers expressly conferred by Congress, is due process of law”
Except, of course, that decision had already been made. They were already permitted to enter the country (you know, because they had applied for and received a visa?). Unless you have a time machine, that decision point had already been passed.
We aren’t talking about entry. Or even illegal aliens and the due process for removal. We’re talking about people who have been granted entry, given visas and, without violating any terms of their visas, been detained and threatened with expulsion.
“ The law allows the Secretary of State to revoke visas based on the Secretary of State's determinations”
And you don’t see that as frighteningly authoritarian? You trust the government far more than I.
Choose only one:
___ Liberty
___ Conformity
They can confirm to the conditions in which they are allowed to stay as guests or have the liberty to write whatever they would like once they are back home.
To make a jeff analogy: you can properly label the ice bath in your lab or you will suffer the consequences should an EPA lab audit discover your sloppy protocol.
Ha Ha Ha
Ozturk is not *your* guest. She is the guest of Tufts University. Her host had no apparent problems with her speech. Why should you get to override their decision?
Her ability to continue a guest is at the discretion of the US govt, who is revoking her privilege. I don’t get a say. Neither do sloppy chemists nor Tufts. Tuft luck.
So freedom of association is not a real thing?
It is. I can have whomever I want visit my house, fields, and forests provided they are legally in the US. If I invited people with the condition of no marijuana use (it is legal here), a few started smoking up, I could remove them or have them removed. I could also provide the condition of no bad analogies or gish galloping and kick out those that made the conscious decision to violate that agreement. Alternatively, those not liking the conditions can choose to not be a guest.
"So freedom of association is not a real thing?"
David Koresh learned it is not.
as the basis for denying the visa application satisfied due process under Mandel, which requires only that the government state a facially legitimate and bona fide reason for the denial.
But there was no denial. They were, in fact, approved for admission into the United States. Hence the whole “visa” thing.
No, she is the guest of the United States of America, per his VISA agreement.
Goddamn you’re a stupid, lying shitweasel.
The next time Chumby throws a party at his house, I think his entire neighborhood should have the authority to approve the guest list in advance, so as not to permit any 'undesirables' from being in the neighborhood. Also, I think all of Chumby's neighbors should be eavesdropping on the speech at his party, to make sure that no one says anything at Chumby's party that upsets them or gives them bad feelz.
But no one's rights are violated, right? Those party guests who offend Chumby's neighbors have the liberty to just stay home and say whatever they want. Right?
You’ll have to make an argument supporting the elimination of nation-states. As it stands, they exist and her citizenship is not here. She has a home and it is not the US. Your analogy doesn’t fit. Try to mix in some bears and trunks. Folks might want a Friday laugh.
It is not about "eliminating nation-states". That is a false choice. It is about asserting what are the *proper* powers of nation-states from a libertarian perspective.
Should the government of a nation-state have the power to deny admittance to a peaceful person that a citizen of that state wishes to invite? If the answer is "yes" then my analogy is apt, you want the entire neighborhood to have veto power over the guest list for your party. That doesn't mean there can't be neighborhoods or property rights, only that the entire neighborhood shouldn't be a bunch of busy-bodies.
It isn’t a false choice, it is reality. Governments have the authority to deny foreign citizens from entering as well as have the authority to deny foreign citizens from remaining after they originally admitted per the agreement between both parties. You’re not a party to that agreement and neither is Tufts.
You’re using an “either-or” fallacy.
Reality is full of injustices. You're using the status quo to justify the status quo, that is itself a fallacy. Government has inserted itself in the free association between peaceful people, and I assert that this is an illegitimate use of government's power. Why do you believe it is a legitimate use of government power to intrude upon the free association between peaceful people from different nations?
She’s not an American and she violated her contract to remain in the US. If she didn’t like the conditions, she should have not visited as a guest subject to those conditions. Alternatively, she could have followed the path to citizenship and then exercised that right as an American. She is attempting to unilaterally change that contract. She can pout about it when she is back home.
“ She’s not an American and she violated her contract to remain in the US”
Really? How?
“Blah, blah, blah”
Th administration is following written law, and they are correct. You’re just a morbidly obese, Neo Marxist, open borders, sophist nutcase that doesn’t like it.
Seethe harder, and go pound sand. You lost.
All the illegals are going to be deported.
“ per the agreement between both parties”
What part of the agreement did they violate, again? No one on the xenophobic side seems to be willing to say.
By meeting the conditions of being inadmissible.
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid%3AUSC-prelim-title8-section1182&num=0&edition=prelim
One of the big things we export is an education and the degrees to prove the education.
So you charge someone nearly a quarter of a million dollars for an education and then don't allow them to finish it?
So they get 75% of a degree? Which rounds down...
I know, have the US government refund their money.
I’m sure the credits will transfer back home.
Should the students at Columbia Univ who got expelled for violating the terms of their contract get a refund?
The tuition at the US Naval Academy is free. Except if you violate the terms of your agreement with them, you owe the costs of them educating (and housing and feeding) you up to that point where you violated the agreement between the two parties (the student and the USN).
Maybe they can take zoom classes online. If that doesn’t work, then maybe it wasn’t such a hot idea to violate the terms of their VISA contract.
She put the quarter in the jukebox. Now she gets to dance.
This analogy is horrible in both a general AND specific sense.
In a general sense of immigration, the government aren’t the nosy neighbors. They’re the HOA who Chumby agreed to let control and maintain the common areas of the neighborhood and years ago the residents voted for board members who built a gate and a guard house. And then several boards later they were just leaving the gate open and while most people that came in didn’t do anything, every once in a while someone would come in and piss all over the rose bushes. So the residents elected a new board who said they would control access through the gate.
In this specific case, one resident invites someone to stay with them and when they arrive at the gate house they sign a form that puts conditions on their visitation. Then they violate those terms and are asked to leave.
Of course all of these analogies break down because a nation-state is vastly different from an HOA or just some nosy neighbors. (Never mind the fact that the property is not collectively owned by the neighbors vs the citizens of a nation-state getting a say in how the commons is used.) And don’t even get me started on the horror show that would unfold if you promised to not use the commons and just imported your labor directly to your property and then had to keep them there.
Also, from a libertarian perspective, the nation-states main purpose of existence is to safeguard the rights and property of its CITIZENS, so they would have to be imbued with some level of power to allow/disallow foreign associations (ideally on an individual basis). Advocating for the destruction of Western Civilization in general and the United States specifically, never mind overt support of terrorist, would meet that threshold, even in a libertarian society.
“ They can confirm to the conditions in which they are allowed to stay as guests”
And which term did she violate?
Nothing says Liberty like a woman compelled to wrap her head in a sheet.
It is to protect her head from covid.
My burka protects you. Your burka protects me .
JD Vance is wrong about burkas.
“ Nothing says Liberty like a woman compelled to wrap her head in a sheet.”
What’s your point? The fact that other countries aren’t as free as America doesn’t mean we should cheer for us being more like them. In case you missed whether liberty was a good thing or not.
1) The Bill of Rights isn't a Bill of Entitlements to others things/nation. It is supreme law over government ... hut hum ... "Congress shall make no law....". There is no law being implemented that certain speech is illegal. Just as there is no law saying as long as you speak a certain way you are ***ENTITLED*** to be here.
2) The 14A clearly states that there is a difference between the rights of citizens and visitors. "privileges or immunities of *citizens* of the United States".
This is just a BS scam-tactic trying to spin the Bill of Rights into an entitlement for illegal immigrants to get US citizenship. (i.e. "[WE] have a 'right' to your nation!")
Deportations Have a Chilling Effect
That is the entire point. Trump and his zealots want all foreigners in this country to live in constant fear.
Like Peter Harisiades did?
You have heard of Peter Harisiades, right?
80% Yes. As 80% support building a [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire to replace the USA. Did you seriously think foreigners trying to conquer the USA for a treasonous 'Democrat/ic' Nazi-Empire shouldn't fear national defense?
You must think the US Citizens and their Patriots would just hand it over to them huh?
Why is the US obligated to host aliens who want to overthrow Western Civilization in general and our own society in particular?
Straw men are made of straw.
What was the manifesto of the organization Khalil belonged to?
Doesn't matter. The question is whether or not "Congress shall make no law" means "Congress shall make no law" or instead means "Congress can do whatever it wants". Looks like you support the latter version. Which just shows that you're exactly like leftists in that you only support the Constitution when convenient, and shit on it when it's an impediment to hurting people you hate.
I am saying we are not obligated to import persons who hate us and wish to do us harm.
And that is a straw man argument.
Just because someone believe Israel hasn't treated the Palestinians fairly - means they "hate and wish to do us harm".
We are not Israel. Nor should we be. We should not be getting involved in foreign wars... Right?
Why is she?
You never heard of the plenary powers doctrine?
His speech is not subject to criminal abuse retard. He agreed yo a set of conditions to visit and violated those conditions. Stop being retarded.
I know you won't read it, but here.
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5-6-2-2/ALDE_00013725/
“ He agreed yo a set of conditions to visit and violated those conditions”
How did he violate those conditions?
It's so funny to watch you Self-Project everything.
"Looks like you support the latter version." (making a false-man)
"Straw men are made of straw."
"only support the Constitution when convenient"
Because Sarc doesn't support the "shall protect each of them against Invasion" cause it's not 'convenient'.
Kicking me out your house is "hurting people you hate" ... because [WE]'re *entitled* to it and telling us [WE] aren't entitled to it hurts our feelings.
Practically everything YOU say is but a projection of exactly who you are.
as the basis for denying the visa application satisfied due process under Mandel, which requires only that the government state a facially legitimate and bona fide reason for the denial.
The visa application wasn’t denied. It was approved.
We know because they are trying to revoke their visas. You can’t take something that someone doesn’t have.
BTW. Which law did Congress pass that made a certain speech illegal? Inquiring minds want to know.
No they want those illegally in the US to leave and stop draining resources needed for citizens and legal residents.
Wrong article. I know your head is stuck in TDS and all things Trump thus all things illegals - but that is not what we are talking about here.
Well, except white south africans. Those guys can get asylum, I guess. Everyone browner than a tub of sour cream can get fucked though, apparently.
Ahh yes, cry racism and let loose the dogs of stale arguments.
I'm usually very skeptical of the race card as well, but here it's impossible to ignore. It's straight up racism. Straight up skin-head-tier racism. It's not dogwhistling. It's not subtle. It's just right out there in the open.
In Harisiades v. Shaughnessy, 342 U.S. 580 (1952), the Supreme Court rejected, on the merits, a First Amendment challenge to an alien's deportation even though the statutory basis was the alien's past membership in the Communist Party.
And yet J.D. Tucille has not explained why the Supreme Court should overrule Harisiades.
Is free speech a natural right, inherent in all people?
The Supreme Court later cited Harisiades in Fiallo v. Bell, 430 U.S. 787, 792 (1977). Laws enacted by Congress concerning the admission and exclusion of aliens are subject only to "limited judicial review", which is a more relaxing standard than rational basis scrutiny. id. at 795fn.6
I'll take that as "Hell no!"
This natural right places very few limits on Congress's power to admit or exclude aliens.
This is far different than limiting criminal punishment or even civil liability.
Do you know what a natural right is?
Lawyers tend to mock the concept.
You seem to be arguing that Fiallo should be overruled.
Yes, I do.
Deporting aliens does not violate that right.
When people have a choice between speaking their mind and being deported, they do not have a right to free speech.
Their right to free speech is not protected from deportation to anywhere near the same extent as it is preotecrted from imprisonment, execution, or injunction, or a civil damage award.
A law that authorizes or even mandates deportation on the basis of their speech is only subject to limited judicial review, per a long line of cases including Fiallo. Limited judicial review is an even more relaxing standard than rational basis scrutiny.
So, under our precedents, laws that allow deportation on the basis of advocating for terrorism must be sustained against a First Amendment challenge, unless the Supreme Court throws out Fiallo and Harisiades.
There are many shitty legal precedents. Either way we're talking past each other. I'm making a logical argument from principles. You're making a lawyerly argument from court decisions.
Why should the Supreme Court throw out Fiallo and Harisiades?
What part of "I'm making a logical argument from principles. You're making a lawyerly argument from court decisions." do you not understand?
What part of "the duly authorized authority does not agree with your application of principles" do you not understand, sarcasmic?
I understand just fine. It's lawyer talk for "Congress shall make no law doesn't really mean Congress shall make no law."
You. Do. Not. Have. Principles. Sarc.
You were fully on board with censorship at the behest of Biden against citizens. From school boards, to abortion protestors, to covid speech.
Fuck off with your false morality.
He is talking from an informed position while you are not. Take the moment to educate yourself dumdum.
Thr choice they made was agreeing to the terms of their visa or not retard.
Do aliens have a natural right to free speech?
The 14A says otherwise and even if it didn't. They don't have a 'right' not to be deported one way or the other. Visitors in your home do not have above the-owners leeway. No matter how much they cry and make excuses about it.
Sure they do. But the question here is "where do they have the right to free speech?" Do we have to allow them to have free speech here? Doesn't seem necessary and it seems there is legal precedent to ask them to leave.
We are allowing them their speech. We are just telling them they need to go home. They can make more free speech from home that most certainly will be amplified in this country by those that hate it. CNN being a prime exaple.
Yes.
They are not being arrested for speech.
They have exactly zero right to be in the USA.
We are removing their permission to be here.
It is when you exercise it on *YOUR* property.
You have no right to break into someone else house and call them names.
You get kicked out.
That is very collectivist of you.
We get it. You dont mind the abuse of taxpayers to fund the globe and your preferred people. Yet you choose to live as far away from your preferred people as you can in white Maine. Weird.
Someone pegged you as an Anarchy-Liberal a while back.
It appears they were spot-on.
"Nations are collectivism!", sarc.
And just like all Liberals ... You'll pull any amount of sh*t needed out of your *ss to entitle yourself to others things/nation.
You have no right to break into someone else house and call them names.
You're right! In the same vein, you have no right to break into Tufts University and kick Ozturk out because she said things that gave you bad feelz.
Do you think Ozturk owns Tuft University and the USA on which it stands?
Yeah, we do.
We do not have the right to imprison it for a long time. Given the lack of a right to be here, expulsion is quite permissible. Especially when one cannot abide by the terms of the agreement they made with the US.
The left openly hates free speech. (See: cancel culture, hate speech laws, dead naming laws, shadow banning, and every Anglosphere nation ruled by leftists.) Yet they believe imported antisemites should have unlimited room to express their hatred of the country in which they are guests.
Sorry, but this is just another case of "How did you think this was going to end?" Universities in particular have been silencing/ assaulting/ failing/ firing anyone who doesn't pass the leftist purity test for decades. If you expect the non-left to get in a twist now that your magical jihadis are the ones in the crosshairs, I really don't know what to tell you. And I really don't care.
"It's ok because Democrats did it first."
The Democrat in question was Harry Truman, and the deportee in question was Peter Harisiades.
That's not what he was talking about and you know it.
Do you ever get embarassed arguing against actual informed people?
He fake mutes them though I do believe that he actually did mute R Mac and ITL at some point.
No, umnum. It's EXPECTED because Democrats did it 50 thousand times for decades. And they thought they would never be on the receiving end. Because they're dumber than shit.
Take a look at that other foot. How's the shoe fit, sport?
I am curious. If guests to America and people who simply decided to enter and stay unlawfully have all of the same rights and protections of an America citizen, then doesn't that make citizenship meaningless?
Since Hamas, or any, is listed as a terrorist organization if you vow support for them and express the same hate and threats that the terrorist organization does then does that not associate you with the terrorist organization?
No one knows to what extent this individual will act. Considering they publicly express themselves to be aligned with the terrorist organization, the potential for them to escalate is real.
I understand unless the crime is committed they can't be charged but since the individual is not American and is a guest, is it worth the risk of allowing them to stay?
No, they are not granted the full suite of rights that citizens have. They are granted the basic civil rights that the constitution guarantees. Notably, the constitution does not grant a right to vote.
So, what exactly did Rumeysa Ozturk say that stirred the wrath of Rubio to sic ICE on her?
Did she advocate violence or not?
Because if she did advocate violence, then yes, she can be kicked out of the US.
However, if she just supported such shit bag terrorist organizations like Hamas, then no, she can not.
This case is an either/or one.
as the basis for denying the visa application satisfied due process under Mandel, which requires only that the government state a facially legitimate and bona fide reason for the denial.
Isn't supporting a terrorist organization a bona fide reason for denying a visa application for non citizen or non legal residents?
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-information-resources/waivers.html
(B) Terrorist activities-
(i) IN GENERAL.-Any alien who-
(I) has engaged in a terrorist activity,
(II) a consular officer, the Attorney General, or the Secretary of Homeland Security knows, or has reasonable ground to believe, is engaged in or is likely to engage after entry in any terrorist activity (as defined in clause (iv));
(III) has, under circumstances indicating an intention to cause death or serious bodily harm, incited terrorist activity;
(IV) is a representative (as defined in clause (v)) of--
(aa) a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(bb) a political, social, or other group that endorses or espouses terrorist activity;
(V) is a member of a terrorist organization described in subclause (I) or (II) of clause (vi);
(VI) is a member of a terrorist organization described in clause (vi)(III), unless the alien can demonstrate by clear and convincing evidence that the alien did not know, and should not reasonably have known, that the organization was a terrorist organization;
(VII) endorses or espouses terrorist activity or persuades others to endorse or espouse terrorist activity or support a terrorist organization;
(VIII) has received military-type training (as defined in section 2339D(c)(1) of title 18, United States Code) from or on behalf of any organization that, at the time the training was received, was a terrorist organization (as defined in clause (vi)); or
(IX) is the spouse or child of an alien who is inadmissible under this subparagraph, if the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible occurred within the last 5 years, is inadmissible.
Yes, it is, as if membership in the Communist Party.
Of course the constitution does not give non-citizens First Amendment rights. They are entitled to due process which is the 5th and 14th. Tucille is an idiot.
When it comes to the admission or exclusion of aliens, due process is what Congress says it is.
There are laws against threats of violence such as death threats to individuals. Those laws apply to both citizens and foreigners. The particular case of the Tufts student's published article did not rise to the definition of such threats. However, if she showed material support for a terrorist group, that would be grounds for nulling her visa.
This isn't your normal deportation. Her visa was revoked which resulted in deportation. The key thing here is that she's not being punished, she is just being sent back home. She seems to think it's terrible here so she'll be happier there anyway. Anyway, she can write her repugnant garbage from home. Especially in this day and age.
So, enough whining about these foreign students having their visas revoked. Why do we want them here? Is their repugnant speech somehow adding to the wonderful tapestry that is America? Nope. What they really are doing is not what they came here for. Do you think on their visa application they said they were going to become professional protestors? Doubt it. They never would have been let in.
If I were to visit a country, any country, that I thought worth visiting I would view it as a privilege. You can bet I wouldn't be out there bashing it. Because if I went there I'd probably go because it was BETTER than the crappy country I came from. This is, of course, all hypothetical of course because I come from a great country.
Kick the foreign complainers out. We have enough domestic complainers as it is.
Once someone is granted entry to the USA by the State Department, it seems clear that the entrant has full 1st Amendment rights.
But prior to entry, the State Department would seem to have only an arguable right to prohibit entry based on speech.
At the moment, the 14th Amendment does not not deny 1st Amendment protection, but a congressional statute could constitutionally establish such a denial under Article 5.