Brickbat: Double Down

Former Titusville, Florida, Police Officer Josh Payne has been sentenced to five years probation after pleading guilty to manslaughter in the death of a man he mistook for a domestic violence suspect. James Lowery ran away when Payne tried to arrest him. Payne chased him with his Taser in one hand and his gun in the other, in violation of department policy. He then fired both weapons, and a bullet struck Lowery in the back of the head. Lowery's family pleaded for a felony conviction, but the judge only sentenced Payne to probation. Payne must also permanently give up his law enforcement certification and pay $18,000 for Lowery's funeral expenses.

Comments

[Adans smith]

The left's made of iron , the right of steel, if one don't get ya, the other one will.

[TJJ2000]

"James Lowery ran away" ... Yeah; That's not the thing to do without a valid excuse for doing so.

[SRG2]

Yeah; That's not the thing to do without a valid excuse for doing so.

That doesn't justify a cop murdering him. Funny how you crap on about government, guns and freedom but when there's an actual case involving a government agent with a gun killing an innocent citizen, you defend the government.

There may be good reasons for running away given what cops have been known to do to citizens who were just standing there, particularly when it's a Florida cop and a black citizen. But you defend the cop, of course.

[TJJ2000]

It's resisting arrest.
Just because one is a black citizen doesn't make resisting arrest legal and permissible.

Seems you're the only one who thinks the color of one's skin determines law. I didn't even know what color of skin was involved but apparently it means EVERYTHING to you.

[SRG2]

Resisting arrest - if he was indeed arrested - should not be a death sentence, you authoritarian POS.

Seems you're the only one who thinks the color of one's skin determines law. I didn't even know what color of skin was involved but apparently it means EVERYTHING to you.

Bullshit. I'll bet you checked and would have been outraged only if the citizen had been white. I never said, nor do I think, that the colour of skin determines law. But colour of skin can and does affect law enforcers' responses.

[TJJ2000]

Now your telling me what I did? "I'll bet you checked".
Your just making stuff up in your very own head to be angry about.

And yes. Resisting arrest does indeed on practically every occasion end up being a death sentence. Being 'black' doesn't exempt that Law Enforcement tool usage what-so-ever. If no-one ever tried to escape the Law / Enforcement there wouldn't be any need for police to even carry a gun now would there be?

[SRG2]

I didn't say you'd checked. I said that I bet you'd checked. One is categorical, the other, probabilistic. But why should I be angry over your being a hypocrite? I'm not.

The rest of your response supports my calling you an authoritarian POS. "Do what the nice government agent says, because he has a gn and he's entitled to shoot you if you don't do what he says" - slight overstatement, granted.

[Don't look at me!]

Resisting arrest Climbing through a window- if she was indeed arrested climbing through a window- should not be a death sentence, you authoritarian POS.

[SRG2]

She was breaking through a window at the head of a mob. You pretend otherwise.

[Don't look at me!]

That allows for a deadly shooting?

[SRG2]

It is far more likely to make such a shooting justified.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

Is it?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

It does for Shrike if a Trump supporting Republican is the victim.

[Rossami]

1. Running away is not "resisting arrest".

2. Even if you disagree with that obvious point, "resisting arrest" by running away does not create a proximate danger to officers or to the community at all, much less sufficient to justify the application of lethal force. Even in the military there are rules of engagement. This cop was far outside them.

[TJJ2000]

A "domestic violence suspect" doesn't create a danger to the community? At what point does the 'violent subject' do that? So the officer made a mistake but what kind of clarification does "running from the police" provide?

Perhaps the officer did act too aggressively and is why he got prosecuted (finer details aside). But lets not pretend that "running from the police" with ZERO instigated-reason for doing so isn't resisting law enforcement either. There is self-chosen blame on the subject side.

[TJJ2000]

Or maybe I just haven't looked at the finer details and the article description of "ran away when Payne tried to arrest him" (most definitely is resisting arrest) isn't as solid as I imagine it to be.

[darkersouls]

There's no "perhaps" about it.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Payne must also permanently give up his law enforcement certification...

To think, the next time he shoots someone he could actually get a whiff of jail time.

[SRG2]

Presumably he's only giving up his Florida law certification. Possibly his willingness to use unnecessary violence in the apprehension of the Blues Brothers will make it easy to get hired in some other states.

[AT]

James Lowery ran away when Payne tried to arrest him.

So, 100% preventable.

Doesn't excuse the cop going Duke Nukem on the guy, his punishment seems appropriate - but Mr. Lowery deserves no empathy. Hand him a Darwin Award and chuck his body in a ditch.

[SRG2]

Doesn't excuse the cop going Duke Nukem on the guy, his punishment seems appropriate -

You think 5 years suspended, losing a Florida certification, and paying some funeral costs is "appropriate punishment"?

[Don't look at me!]

Now do the cop who shot the woman in the capital building.

[SRG2]

And heeeere's DLAM with another "whatabout?" You really can't help yourself, can you? But as you went there, was Babbitt running away? Or was she breaking through a window at the head of a mob? You are aware that there's a difference, right?

[Don't look at me!]

Just asking questions.

[TJJ2000]

LOL... You're a joke.
What's really worse? Defying and running from Law Enforcement or running to Law Enforcement and getting blind-shot without warning.

I don't really have all that much sympathy for Babbit due to "breaking through a window" but I have far less sympathy for anyone who defies law enforcement directly without any reason at-all.

[SRG2]

Why is it that you and DLAM seem incapable of appreciating that breaking through a window at the head of a mob is a more serious immediate concern than someone fleeing?

[markm23]

Because that was a remarkably non-violent "mob".

[Don't look at me!]

In both cases, the police were not in physical and immediate danger.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

No, you’re just ok executing anyone who dissents against your Marxist democrats. Right Shrike?

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

He’s pointing out your blatant democrat hypocrisy. You don’t like that. So you bleat out “whataboutism!” To deflect from, the aforementioned hypocrisy.

But a Democrat like you has to do what a democrat like you has to do, right Shrike?

[AT]

...yes?

You don't???

(Also, he didn't just lose his FL cert. Dude can never be a cop again anywhere.)

[SRG2]

Also, he didn't just lose his FL cert. Dude can never be a cop again anywhere

Do we know that for sure? Is the loss of a Florida state certification recognised by all other states and their municipalities?

[AT]

After losing his badge with Titusville police, Payne also turned over his law enforcement certificate which means he can never be an officer again.

I mean, go do your own homework on it. Really.

[Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)]

I doubt any county, state or municipality would want the liability inherent in hiring this guy. He would be a magnet for lawsuits.

[SRG2]

It appears that this law enforcement certification is state-level. I have found no source for the idea that there is a national-level law enforcement certificate binding on states. I suspect you can't find one either.

There is a National Decertification Index, but that is for reference and decertifications are not binding.

[AT]

Are you referring to IADLEST?

Because I'm pretty sure that all but a few states necessarily participate in it, meaning all applicants get run thru it in those states, and you're on the blackball list then the only way you get hired is if the hiring agency is in some seriously dire straights.

Now, that being said your point is valid - it's not an automatic DQ, but... at that point, the only realistic places one might overlook it is where they're desperately in need of officers. Probably because the various Marxist defund efforts and heavy-handed scrutiny of legitimate police activity has led so many of them to relocate/retire. So, you'd probably see someone hiring a blackball only in blue cities.

Which, who cares.

[TJJ2000]

^THIS - "100% preventable" ... Well Said +1000000.
"resisting" Law "arrest" isn't something that just accidentally happens.
"Mr. Lowery deserves no" *special* "empathy" - I agree.

[Rossami]

And what would have been the sentence if this had been a regular citizen "accidentally" shooting a mis-identified cop?

[AT]

Well, regular citizens really shouldn't be in the business of shooting people at all, outside of some very, very circumscribed situations.

[Vernon Depner]

Cops really shouldn't be in the business of shooting people at all, outside of some very, very circumscribed situations. That's why he was found guilty. Too bad about the ludicrously lenient sentence.

[I, Woodchipper]

One example. that's all it should take. Put one of these cops in prison for life and every cop in america will stop shooting people.

[AT]

Crime wins!

[TJJ2000]

Would beating-up Law Enforcement to the point of disabling them from enforcing the law qualify?

I mean; I just want to know where that line gets drawn because I'd say running and hiding all the time also disables them from enforcing the law.

How to catch a fish without a hook?

[AT]

Of course they should. Unlike the average citizen, they go LOOKING for bad guys who are going to shoot at them. What, do you think they should do that unarmed and helpless against them?

The role of the police officer is one that comes with a monopoly on use of force. The bad guys have no right to it whatsoever. The cops do. They can't use it with impunity, mind you - but they get a whole lot more of a justified basis to pull those triggers than literally anyone else does.

Too bad about the ludicrously lenient sentence.

Dude can never be a cop again and he's on the hook for some serious dollars. That's pretty harsh.

I sometimes think all folks around here really want to do is just flog cops for the sake of flogging cops.

Like the ACAB has rotted their tiny little pea brains or something.

[Vernon Depner]

What are you even doing on a libertarian site?

[AT]

lol, that's adorable. You really think that's what it is?

[TJJ2000]

It shouldn't be much had the cop defied the law.
Probably not the way it is; but that's the way it should be.

[mad.casual]

So...
-Officer just stopped some rando? Check.
-As part of an American police force on American soil? Check.
-Immediately and directly killed the person (even if only mistakenly)? Check.
-Someone who wasn't otherwise threatening their own or someone else's life (or otherwise dangling off a rooftop or in the middle of ODing or having a stroke or otherwise imminently courting death)? Check.
-Suffered severely diminished and/or disparate treatment from what a civilian in the same situation would've faced? Check.
-Will still collect a pension for the privilege? Check.

I think we can all agree that the real villain in all of this is the cop in Australia who tased a 90 yr. old woman with a knife when called to the scene. A woman who died a week later (like she'd been assaulted with a fire extinguisher or bear spray) as a result of the fall, not the tasing, for whose death the officer stood trial.