The War in Gaza Is Far Worse Than You Thought
Researchers went back to check Palestinian casualty reports from October 2023. They found a deadlier month for civilians—and children—than any other chapter of the "war on terror."

How many people in Gaza have been killed by the Israel-Hamas war? For a long time, the only source of information was the Palestinian Ministry of Health. And the accuracy of their death rolls became the subject of a morbid political debate. Is it fair to call the ministry "Hamas-run"? Did they tell the truth about the Ahli Hospital bombing? What to make of the discrepancy between identified and unidentified corpses?
It's an ethical question not just for Israelis carrying out the war, but also for Americans, who are providing both the funding and weapons that make the war effort possible.
Airwars, a team of conflict researchers affiliated with the University of London, went back and cross-checked the casualty lists from the first 25 days of the Israeli air campaign against news reporting, social media, and other local sources. And unlike the Palestinian ministry, they differentiated between civilians and fighters, using data such as social media funeral notices to determine Hamas affiliation.
The Airwars report, released on Thursday, shows a rate of civilian slaughter "incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented." The Palestinian ministry reported 8,525 wartime deaths, including 3,542 children, from October 7, 2023, to October 31, 2023. Airwars was able to verify a minimum of 5,139 civilians killed by Israeli air raids in that timeframe, including at least 1,900 children.
Most of them were not the collateral damage of combat against Hamas. Out of 606 incidents of civilian casualties studied by Airwars, only 26 overlapped with the death of a militant. And in those 26 incidents, the killing was still incredibly lopsided, with 32 militants killed in total, at a cost of 522 civilian lives.
For example, the Israeli military killed Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari on October 31, 2023, by dropping American-made 2,000-lb bunker buster bombs on the Jabalia refugee camp. The attack also killed at least 126 civilians, including 69 children, according to Airwars. "Children were carrying other injured children and running, with grey dust filling the air. Bodies were hanging on the rubble, many of them unrecognized. Some were bleeding and others were burnt," Palestinian eyewitness Mohammad Al Aswad told CNN at the time.
Israeli military spokesman Lt. Col. Richard Hecht called the deaths in Jabalia a "tragedy of war" in a CNN interview. "About the civilians there, we're doing everything we can to minimize. Sadly they [Hamas] are hiding themselves within the civilian population," Hecht told CNN. "We're going to go after every one of these terrorists who was involved in the hideous [October 7, 2023] attack."
Hamas raided Israeli towns and villages on October 7, 2023, killing 815 civilians, including 36 children, and 380 military personnel. Its fighters shot Israelis and foreigners in their houses, bomb shelters, and music festivals at close range, returning to Gaza with 251 captives, about 96 of whom are still being held hostage. The human rights organization Amnesty International said that Hamas "flagrantly violated international law and displayed a chilling disregard for human life by carrying out cruel and brutal crimes including mass summary killings, hostage-taking, and launching indiscriminate rocket attacks into Israel."
Israeli leaders promised a counterattack "with neither limitations nor respite" on October 8. The Israeli military used artificial intelligence to generate long target lists, both designed to "kill as many Hamas operatives as possible" and to "create a shock" that will "lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas," intelligence officers told +972 Magazine. Israel also employed a program known as "Where's Daddy" designed to kill Hamas members at home with their families, +972 later reported.
The results were consistent with that kind of strategy. "Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes," the Airwars report states. Over 90 percent of women and children killed by Israeli air raids died in their homes, and in 95 percent of cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed, according to the Airwars report.
Amnesty International concluded last week that the Israeli war in Gaza constitutes a "genocide against Palestinians" because "the destruction of Palestinians in Gaza, as such, was Israel's intent, either in addition to, or as a means to achieve, its military aims." Israel denied the allegations. The Amnesty report is "nothing but accusing us—the victims of this terror—of permitting the genocide which has been committed on our people by Hamas' design," Israeli government spokesman David Mercer told Sky News.
The Airwars report did not come to any conclusion about Israel's intent. It states that the research is only "intended to cut through the 'fog of war'—to provide an evidence base that offers civilians a route to accountability, to give policy makers the tools they need to make decisions that protect civilians, and to present an accurate and comprehensive picture even in the most contested of battlefields."
Airwars was founded in 2014 by Chris Woods, a British journalist with a long career investigating drone warfare, to monitor the consequences of air campaigns around the world. Its current areas of research include the Russian bombing in Ukraine and Syria; U.S. and U.S.-led coalition bombing in Iraq, Syria, Somalia, and Yemen; Turkish bombing in Syrian and Iraqi Kurdistan; and bombing by all sides of the Libyan civil war.
Although the Israeli government and its supporters often argue that its military tactics are more humane than the American "war on terror," Airwars found the exact opposite to be true. Before October 2023, the deadliest month for civilians ever recorded by Airwars was March 2017, when a U.S.-led coalition was battling the Islamic State group for Mosul, Iraq. That campaign killed 1,470 civilians, only one-fifth of the verified Palestinian civilian death count in October 2023. Children made up 9 percent of casualties in Mosul overall, and 36 percent of casualties in Gaza in October 2023.
These numbers are a conservative estimate, based on the minimum reported casualties in cases that Airwars was able to verify were Israeli bombing rather than Hamas misfires. And the study only covers one month of the war. More than a year later, the Palestinian Ministry of Health reports that 45,600 people have been killed and 11,000 are missing. Again, unlike the Airwars report, these numbers don't distinguish between civilians and Hamas fighters.
But with hospitals overwhelmed, communications cut, and thousands of bodies left in the street or trapped under rubble, 45,600 deaths is possibly an undercount. Other researchers have estimated that the total death toll from war, starvation, and disease in Gaza could be greater than 100,000 or even 300,000.
With all these debates over numbers or legal terminology, it's easy to forget that the Palestinian and Israeli death statistics represent human lives violently cut short. As Jewish scripture states, every human being is an entire world; and as Islamic scripture states, to kill one person is to kill all of humanity.
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Research from social media... which was widely mocked as the same people kept dying over and over again. Lol.
Look at this guy literally laughing at dead civilians. He thinks it's funny. He giggles when children are blown to bits, and accuses anyone who doesn't like it of appealing to emotion. Mothers cradling dead children makes him smile. He'd do the same thing to illegals if he could, but settles for separating families and then laughing at everyone.
Only talks about ideas™ , never people.
That’s why there are international arrest warrants for the criminal Netanyahu for crimes against humanity. It’s also why the Un International Court of Justice has Israel on trial for genocide.
It’s why Amnesty International released a report last week concluding that Israel is committing a genocide aka holocaust in Gaza.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/
The western governments including the US still supporting the genocide are not only violating their signatory obligations to the genocide convention but are COMPLICIT.
Hey buddy. Why did Amnesty International attempt to change the definition of genocide in their application?
https://news.sky.com/story/icj-asked-to-broaden-definition-of-genocide-over-collective-punishment-in-gaza-13271874
Weird huh. So I guess... refuted.
Amnesty International wanted a “broader” definition of genocide to give genocidal pariahs like Israel fewer slimy rocks to hide under.
Even with the narrower UN definition which Israel and the US are signatory to, they concluded that Israel IS guilty of committing genocide.
Isn’t it curious that a people whose entire identity is based on claiming to be victims of a holocaust are committing one and denying it?
So you agree they had to change the definition in order for it to be a genocide.
Thanks for playing buddy. Shows you're full of shit lol.
You obviously can’t comprehend language. You should stick to what you know. Just bleat “refuted”.
I’m pleased with the optics. Hahaha
And the optics are....?
Fuck around with Israel and get destroyed. Just ask hamas and hezball-less. And now Syria.
I am pleased with the optics too, Misek.
That shitty apartheid state of Israel wouldn’t last a day on its own.
That genocidal group of pathological liars have been coercing Americans, and their allies since long before their theft of Palestine.
Us tax dollars amounting 18 billion this year directly supporting the genocide in Gaza.
Since the creation of that shithole terrorist state Americans have given hundreds of billions in direct aid and many times that in total cost.
https://ifamericansknew.org/stat/cost.html
Why? So America can lose all credibility in the world supporting this holocaust today.
Not much of a trade. Those are the optics.
"That shitty apartheid state of Israel wouldn’t last a day on its own."
Your shitty Nazi state didn't so well, steaming pile of Nazi shit.
So many anonymous cowards celebrating the Joonocide. Typical fake libertarians of Reason's scummy comment section.
They're using the US statutory definition. I forget where it is, but it is on the broad side. It plainly includes what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.
Refuted!
Netanyahu, the criminal with international warrants for his arrest, told the IDF in a speech to commit genocide by referencing the Jewish biblical genocide against women and children with the story of AMALEK. Clearly inciting genocide. With over 24,000 non combatant women and children intentionally targeted and killed and IDF soldiers on record rejoicing about it referencing amalek, the effect of Netanyahus instructions are clear.
Israeli defence minister, also an international criminal with warrants for his arrest, Yoav Gallant said Israel was fighting “human animals” and that they will be “starved of food and water” which Israel has done and continues to do.
Amichay Eliyahu, the minister for heritage, who suggested dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza; Israel isn’t supposed to have nuclear weapons. Saddam Hussein was hung for crimes against humanity and he didn’t even have WMD much less threaten to use them.
The country’s mainly ceremonial president, Isaac Herzog, who described Palestinians as “an entire nation out there that is responsible” demonstrates the genocidal intention.
These statements in combination with their actual execution clearly meets the UN definition and criteria for genocide aka holocaust which Israel and the US are signatory to.
Fuck off and die, Nazi shit.
Nazi?
Does committing holocaust’s define Nazis? The Jews of Israel are doing that today.
Or does the recognition that Israel is a filthy genocidal terrorist state make someone a Nazi? The UN, Amnesty International and most of the world is recognizing that today.
With bogeymen everywhere, your delusional bubble is getting smaller.
Fuck off and die, Nazi shit. Get reamed with a barb-wire wrapped broomstick.
You're worse, Sevo. You WANT to kill Palestinian babies.
Nazi? What, are we talking about Ukraine and the IDF now?
Double refuted.
Seriously, get your bitch as sort of here, you goddamned neo Nazi Islamist.
With this genocide, stupid fucking Jews have done perhaps the only thing that will see them finally lose their apartheid state Israel.
As perpetrators of a genocide they can’t be allowed to be responsible to govern the people they are trying to destroy.
Bibis gonna swing.
The mask has finally dropped from the Jewish supremacists. Now people are finally seeing the true nature of Judaism.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/400739
New study shows: Gazan civilian death toll deliberately exaggerated to vilify Israel
Study by the Henry Jackson Society think tank finds the number of civilians reported killed in the Gaza conflict has been manipulated by Hamas-run authorities in Gaza for propaganda purposes, with international media often repeating the claims without scrutiny.
Is wiki with its three independent sources “propaganda”?
If it isn’t, then JEWS ARE LYING AGAIN. Correction STILL
“As of 10 December 2024, over 46,000 people – 44,786 Palestinian[1] and 1,706 Israeli[19] – have been reported killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 134–146 journalists and media workers,[22] 120 academics,[23] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.[24] In Nov 2024, the UN published its analysis covering only victims verified from at least three independent sources over 6 months span between Nov 2023 and April 2024 found that 70% of Palestinian deaths in Gaza are women and children.[25]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
From the same wiki link demonstrating that JEWS OF ISRAEL ARE COMMITTING A HOLOCAUST
“ According to a letter sent to President Joe Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris, and others on 2 October 2024 by 99 American healthcare workers who have served in the Gaza Strip since 7 October 2023, based on the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification standards and cited in a study from the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University, the most conservative estimate that they could calculate based on the available data was at least 62,413 deaths in Gaza from starvation (most of them young children) and at least 5,000 deaths from lack of access to care for chronic diseases.[32][33][34]”
FOAD, Nazi shit. Get reamed with a barb-wire wrapped broomstick.
With virtually every building in Gaza destroyed, how many people out of 2.2 million can still be alive?
LOL. Have you seen Gaza lately, Zionazi? They've killed at least 200K and 95% civilians and not even a moron needs some "new study" commissioned and carried out by Israhell's Unit 8200 and the IDF/Mossad Facebook Commando Brigade to see it.
The only thing Sinwar loved more than dead Arab babies are dead Jewish babies. Hostages home=war ends. It's accurate from October 8th Otherwise, FAFO. Don't write no checks with yo mouth yo body can't cash.
Look at this Jew hater looking forward to some good old antisemitism over faked death tolls and obvious lies.
His hero Jeff does love a good dead jew and a raped teenager.
I'm not shocked sarc blindly believes government/leftist narratives though. From covid to Gaza, he will faithfully repeat Psaki.
With virtually every building in Gaza destroyed, how many people out of 2.2 million can still be alive?
Probably too many left alive for the Joonociders.
This is the good faith civil discourse sarc wants.
So it have to believe bad numbers or I'm laughing at the dead gazans? Lol.
God damn sarc. How fucking wasted are you today?
You lol at dead Gazans and lol at illegal children of illegals being taken from their illegal parents. It's funny to you. It makes you giggle and laugh because you're a mean-spirited person. There's nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of people like you out there. But the world would be a better place if there wasn't.
No, he said lol about untrustworthy reporting and the hypocritical belief in "social media as a valid source" by the same people who arbitrarily reject social media reports they disagree with. Your mischaracterization of his comment does you no credit.
Sarc is incapable of understanding that.
“Sarc is incapable of understanding “
FIFY
You’re not wrong.
Look at Sarc pretend the Hamas figures are real to justify his Jew hate.
Seig Heil, Sarckles.
Did Ralph Nader join "kHAMaaaaazzz" you stupid Zionazi lying scum?
Hamas is UNDERCOUNTING the deaths because they want to MINIMIZE the appearance of their losses. Besides, Hamas isn't even issuing formal statements anymore.
Im laughing at the retarded researchers using media and social media during a phase of reporting that Gaza admitted they lied ahout death toll numbers dumb fuck.
Those numbers you were blindly repeating at the time. The numbers Hamas was forced to walk back.
I'm laughing at "researchers" using faulty numbers.
Now I'm laughing at you because even having been given the facts of faulty data you have to believe it because you're a moron. Lol.
How fucking wasted are you today?
Don't pretend he's any different today than every other day.
That's strange.
I don't recall Sarc peeing his pants about Israeli and Americans being kidnapped, raped and murdered.
Weird, huh?
You mean the videos of dead children supposedly killed less than 24 hours before, with shattered torsos and heads being hugged by grieving fathers, yet with none of the viscera from the recently dead bodies smearing on those grieving clothes' and hands'? Or how about the girl being carried into a hospital on a stretcher with blood all over her giggling to herself, and only showing distress when there's 4 adults holding her to the floor of the hospital and jabbing a needle roughly into her arm. Or maybe the video of the young male child with a wound leaving his lower leg supposedly half cut open with, given the way it was bending freely, both bones broken and yet not showing major signs of distress, let alone pain?
"A heart-wrenching moment unfolds as a Palestinian father mourns the loss of his son. In a sudden and unexpected incident, the son's leg begins to itch despite his tragic death. This unusual occurrence has left many in shock and sorrow, capturing the emotional weight of the moment."
I laughed at that, myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUhm0rFS-vM&ab_channel=DeccanMedia
Yeah, when I got to that sentence I just quit reading. Garbage manipulated by people intent on making it sound even worse than Hamas proven lies did.
Shhhh. The first rule of Pallywood is you do not talk about Pallywood.
If there's one thing I've learned about social media, it's that their metaphor for worse-than-imagined hellscapes frequently gets applied to things that aren't even really that bad and doesn't actually get applied to places where loads of people are shoved into meat grinders or dark holes for all eternity.
Places where everyone is self-medicated and disfigured, lying to themselves and each other, with no or dirty and polluted water and air, ashes from burning forests raining from the sky, shambling half-dead corpses in filth line the streets... are social paradises that everyone should support, emulate, and flock too.
It’s a war zone, people get killed in wars. More news at 11:00
When you start a war against a stronger opponent, expect to suffer more casualties.
Don't like it? Don't start the war.
Moral half-wit. The coming Abraham Accords made this their last chance. They had nothing to lose.
The idea that any information we're getting out of that region from anybody isn't heavily influenced by propaganda efforts is nuts.
I want us to stay out of it and let Israel and Iran and Lebanon and Turkey sort it out (or not), but it doesn't seem like anybody with any power, nor any of the protestors that Petti casts his lot with want that either. The only difference appears to be which side each wants to throw their support behind.
We didn't even start this shitshow, Great Britain did. Let's just end foreign aid to everyone and let them have at each other.
Let's just end foreign aid to everyone and let them have at each other.
Channeling the Anamaniacs - I'm coo wit dat.
Except the foreign aid if they sneak across a border lol.
Or the foreign aid stolen by other countries.
Or the NGOs funded by the federal government that pass through funding to foreigners.
Which animaniac was the dumb one? You channel that one daily.
The joke was that it was either Wakko or Dot, but then you would see them doing something like quantum mechanics in the next scene.
Sarc is more like Pinky anyways.
So only partial applicability to sarc then.
Actually the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany and lost, Great Britain didn't cause this. And as far as I'm concerned we should have had boots on the ground sending terrorists to hell alongside the IDF and this would be over last year. People seem to forget the Oct 7 terrorists kidnapped US citizens too, and 5 are still being held hostage, if they're even still alive. This is one of the few wars I actually approve of since WWII.
Rigggght...just like those boots on the ground stopped all terror activity in Afghanistan and Iraq in a year, right?
I don't think Israel lacks the right to defend itself. But the idea that just killing harder is suddenly going to pacify a generation of terrorists who were raised on terror, taught terror, and fed terror for decades is assenine.
"cross-checked the casualty lists from the first 25 days of the Israeli air campaign against news reporting, social media, and other local sources."
FUCKING SERIOUSLY???
The same news reporting that was publishing Hamas figures verbatim? The same social media in which the exact same kids and mannequins were found dead in different explosions each week? And what other "local sources" are there than Hamas?
If you're not inside and doing the research yourself your results are meaningless.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ad+hominem+fallacy
You can see a picture of ML off on the right of the page.
I'll switch around my offer from yesterday.
If you begin any post with BANANAS as the first line, I will respond to your post as if I did not know your sordid history of posting.
Of course, that assumes the rest of said post actually says anything other than TRUMP or an insult.
I'll play.
BANANAS.
If you're not inside and doing the research yourself your results are meaningless.
That is a textbook ad hominem attack on the author claiming that the author is wrong because they're reporting the information they have access to, not gathering it themselves. Text fucking book.
GFY Sarc. Your trying to redirect from what I pointed out about the biased sources, because your little Nazi ass wants to hate Jooz.
Also, a search engine isn't a citation you fucking drunken retard. That's why you still don't know what 'ad hominem means. Because you never actually read any of the results.
It figures Drunky is an antisemite in addition to being a leftist.
Yeah……., you really shouldn’t use words you don’t understand.
They are reporting based on KNOWN faulty data you dumb retarded leftist.
The time frame of the research includes the Gaza lies about hundreds dead from a hospital attack when it was a dozen and the attack was a misfired Hamas rocket. Lol.
Media and social media was pushing lies. It got so bad Hamas themselves reduced the estimate by half. You're so fucking retarded.
God damn sarc. You will latch onto any known lying narrative won't you.
Tell us more about how objecting to the indiscriminate killing of women and children, or separation of families, is an appeal to emotion. That's one of your favorite ad hominem attacks that you use to praise cruelty for cruelty's sake because cruelty makes you happy.
Tell us more about how objecting to the indiscriminate killing of women and children, or separation of families, is an appeal to emotion.
Seriously, dude, shut the fuck up. That actually is a "textbook" example of an appeal to emotion. The killing is not indiscriminate. Hamas attacked Israel and Israel is making sure it doesn't happen again by targeting Hamas wherever they hide. The separations are not of families. The separations are based on legal status.
Your critical thinking skills are nowhere in evidence.
To Sarc, anything Hamas does is ok, and anything Israel does is wrong. Just like how he sees democrats and Trump.
Virtually every building in Gaza is destroyed. That's not indiscriminate? You are a moral half-wit. Hamas did not "attack Israel". Israel has been attacking the Palestinians for 75 fucking years. This was a tactical defense.
Simply "objecting to killing of women and children", while ignoring context is definitely appeal to emotion. It's the same as saying "Won't you please think of the children!"
You can see why no one takes you seriously here, no?
You just used an appeal to emotion decrying an appeal to emotion.
Their deaths don't change the fact you and these researchers are using known lies and faulty data to push the narratives of a group that kidnapped and raped Israelis. Weird you don't seem to care about those folks.
You also seem to not know what the word indiscriminate means. The IDF warns before every attack they make. Knock bombs, leaflets, etc. They will respond when being actively attacked with rockets.
Ironically the Hamas rocket attacks and murders in Israel are actually indiscriminate. They get lobbed into city centers without care. Hamas has a Martyr fund to kill any Israeli no matter who.
Are you a hypocrite or just retarded?
It seems to me that if they wanted to indiscriminately kill women and children they would not drop leaflets warning of upcoming military activities in the area. Also, they would start doing Dresden-like carpet bombing, and just running bulldozers to pass everything in Gaza into the sea.
Perhaps if Hamas stopped using human shields, fewer human shields would die.
Hamas has NEVER been documented to have used human shields. IDF has used human shields many times - there are many pics of such. Israel lies about everything and projects their crime onto their victims.
That is a textbook ad hominem attack on the author
Except for the part where it isn't an attack on the author at all. It is an attack on the method by which the author gathered the data.
In relying on the the claims of others, the author is simply appealing to authority, which is a logical fallacy. "If you're not inside and doing the research yourself your results are meaningless." is a valid logical argument when the underlying data admitted relies on social media, which is ripe for misrepresentation.
I am particularly disturbed by your emphasis that it is a textbook example when it a) does not address the character of the author and b) is not irrelevant to the argument being made. Based on other posts you have made, you labor under the mistaken impression that any response that contains "you" and "your" creates an ad hominem attack. That is simply not true.
Here is an actual textbook example, which appears nothing like your example:
Person 1: This is the information I have gathered from the sources I can find.
Person 2: Everything you say is worthless because you didn't travel there and gather the information yourself first-hand. Instead you're a poopy-head using information from poopy-heads, which makes your information poopy. And it makes you a poopy poopy-head too. Poopy-head.
Attacking the person to discredit what they said is the definition of ad hominem.
Attacking the person to discredit what they said is the definition of ad hominem.
I gave you the definition, you just refuse to accept you are wrong.
"Instead of discussing the argument itself, criticism is directed toward the opponent’s character, which is irrelevant to the discussion."
How is questioning the validity of data an attack on character? How is the method by which the data was gathered irrelevant?
Good luck with the "Poopy-head" argument. It might do well against toddlers. You have already admitted you can't handle teenagers.
And THAT is how you make a clever ad hominem attack.
He still doesn’t get it.
You truly are retarded.
People are criticizing the methods used, not the person dumbass.
BANANAS
Good grief. That is not ad hominem. Ad hominem would be me saying your definition is wrong because it comes from you, not because you got it from the wrong dictionary.
You're using it incorrectly you retarded fuck. He literally posted his criticism of the media produced numbers from the ministry in Gaza. The numbers are knowingly fabricated. Hamas even admitted to it when they halved the number dead. The first few months were admitted to be lies by the producers of that data you dumb retarded leftist fuck. Lol.
Poor pour sarc. No more ideas™ .
My gay ass changed my username again. Then I'll claim that my original name has been spoofed.
I'm a fucking joke.
I'm going to meet up with Jesse and give him a maple tossed salad.
Hamas wants this. It's how they get international support and sympathy. If they didn't want women and children getting killed, they don't have to keep them in the same places where the fighters are.
And if they really didn't want women and children getting killed, they wouldn't have killed so many on 2023-10-07.
I should have said "their own women and children". Obviously they don't give a fuck if they are Jews.
Heh, same result. They FA and they FO.
Lies. IDF killed those on 10/7. Read the Hannibal Directive. All evidence confirms this. Cars leaving strafed by helos. Etc. Jewish survivors confirm.
Did these same people fact-check the October 7th attack? What percentage of the casualties was civilians?
One of the obscenities of government is that leaders start wars, their subjects fight them. This war was started by Hamas leadership. The casualties are a direct result of Israel defending itself against a criminal "country" that supports criminal leadership.
I shed no more tears for the Palestinian "civilians" who supported this criminal leadership than I do for the Germans who supported Hitler or the Russians who supported Stalin.
Which is to say: Sorry they support criminals. Not sorry they get the result they wished on their victims.
The supporters of the Palestinians and therefore Hamas were celebrating what happened on 10/07/23 for much tge same reasoning as AOC is presenting Luigi Mangione's murderous actions as "understandable". Picking a fight with a more militarily powerful entity, especially gleefully committing atrocities and war crimes, does really allow one to hide behind retaliation that affects your own civilians. Palestinian supporters have always had a problem of engaging in hypocrisy.
There are Palestinians who oppose Hamas...however they end up being tortured to death.
Is it any less true in Gaza that the best defense against tyrants is a well armed populace? Distribute small arms. It would serve a double purpose to remove the stigma of Israel attacking an unarmed populace.
The Palestinians overwhelmingly supported the 10/7 attacks. So I can’t muster a lot of sympathy for them. That said, all the Palestinian casualty numbers are propagandist lies.
Also, where the hell is Misek? I figured he would be threadshitting like gangbusters.
The Nazi shit's belt doesn't go through all the loops; took him a while to show up
Several William Tecumseh Sherman quotes come to mind.
"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen. Other simple remedies were within their choice. Yon know it and they know it, but they wanted war, and I say let us give them all they want; not a word of argument, not a sign of let up, no cave in till we are whipped or they are.
--------
You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors.
You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with.
-----
If they want eternal war, well and good; we accept the issue, and will dispossess them and put our friends in their place. ...
Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well...
Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives. A people who will persevere in war beyond a certain limit ought to know the consequences. Many, many peoples with less pertinacity have been wiped out of national existence.
'How many people in Gaza have been killed by the Israel-Hamas war?'
Lots?
How many people in Gaza have generally supported Hamas?
Also lots?
So where is the threshold between "innocent civilian" and culpable belligerent?
On the contrary, the terror enclave is in a much better state than it should be. If Israel wouldn't be a Jewish country or if Hamas attacked anyone else BUT the Jews last year then the Gaza Strip would already be a crater by now. Literally everyone, including other peoples of the region e.g. Arabs, Muslims, Turks, Kurds... or any one of their allies e.g. Russians or the Chinese or possibly even ye olden European nations would have already obliterated every last one of those terrorists. Nobody (apart from the IDF of course) would be effing around with stuff like roof knocking, leaflets, SMS warnings or the like. Member what Assad did to his own people? Member what Erdogan does to the Kurds on the regular? Member what the Chinese did to the Uyghurs? Member what Putin did to the Chechens? Heck, member what Hamas did to Fatah back in the Gaza Strip? Because I member... now imagine any one of these rascals with the tech and capabilities of Israel.
Bullshit! Russia has the most moral army on Earth!
The IDF morally ranks somewhere below the Ukrainian Azov Battalion and above ISIS.
I'm assuming this is sarcasm, because it's rather out of character for you.
Petti. What do you expect to happen in a war?
they differentiated between civilians and fighters, using data such as social media funeral notices to determine Hamas affiliation.
This cannot be taken seriously.
This is a joke of an article.
Every single death is on the head of Hamas. They started it all. Took hostages for more than a year. Keep their war materials embedded with civilians.
But, social media posts and funeral notices!
As I said above, Hamas wanted this. I don't see any other way to interpret their intent. They knew exactly what Israel would do in response to their horrific attacks.
I suspect Hamas was hoping their attack would provoke Israel to retaliate, and then for other Arab nations to attack Israel. Hamas miscalculated, just as they did when they ordered all of those pagers to stay in touch.
I don't think they expected other nations to attack, maybe Hezbollah.
The did it so their political allies in America and Europe would have a cause. Without one activists groups wither and die.
"They knew exactly what Israel would do in response to their horrific attacks."
Israel has a long, long history of limiting their response to such attacks. They don't even execute the worst of the criminals that they do capture. Hamas probably counted on lots of bluster and little action. Instead, they got the response any other country would have had to a raid that intentionally murdered and raped thousands of their citizens in a massive _planned_ war crime - except Israel still isn't imposing the death penalty for these war crimes.
Israel has a long, long history of limiting their response to such attacks.
From a link in this article to reporting by a left-wing Israeli online news outlet:
Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).
If true, then the IDF has taken the gloves off.
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
The existence of precision munitions doesn't mean that they can cleanly target leaders in homes without killing dozens, or apparently, even hundreds of other people. It just means they don't need to level an entire neighborhood of thousands.
They don't even execute the worst of the criminals that they do capture.
Well, hey, I guess the Israel government does deserve credit for not violating one of the most basic of human rights. You know, the right not to be executed just because someone in government thinks you should be. Now, despite my general opposition to the death penalty for crimes, for a lot of reasons, it would be well within reasonable bounds of justice, rather than vengeance, to put Hamas members to death after a trial. Provided, of course, that the trials were real trials, with due process and evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the person convicted had carried out, planned, or ordered capital crimes.
Hamas probably counted on lots of bluster and little action.
This is the opposite of what is most common when people talk about what Hamas expected Israel to do. Here in the comments, I see arguments that Hamas wanted Israel to act with overwhelming force and cause high civilian casualties. The goal of having their leaders and operations adjacent to or underneath schools and hospitals wasn't just to have "human shields" but to also have civilians added to any body count. It has been an essential part of the strategy of terror against Israel since at least when I was born ~50 years ago. 1) Terrify the Israeli population, 2) get the IDF to respond with a heavy hand as they work to convince their people that the government will keep them safe or at least exact a heavy price, 3) use the suffering of Palestinian civilians to get support and sympathy from other countries and weaken Israel's support from the West.
they got the response any other country would have had to a raid that intentionally murdered and raped thousands of their citizens in a massive _planned_ war crime...
I haven't heard of the Ukrainian military targeting buildings housing a few Russian officials or military officers, but those buildings also hold 10 times that many or more ordinary Russian families with children. Are you saying that doing that is a reasonable response? That the U.S. military should do the same thing if that ever happens to us?
,,,except Israel still isn't imposing the death penalty for these war crimes.
I think that there are over 40,000 dead Palestinians that would say otherwise, if they weren't, you know, dead.
^This is the steaming pile of lefty shit who supports murder as a preventative measure, but he's too stupid to know what he's preventing:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Is there some reason that Hamas built hundreds of miles of tunnels for Hamas fighters but neglected to build a single bomb shelter for women and children?
Surely they knew that would be a need when they attacked on October 7.
Hamas started NOTHING. Israel started this 75 years ago.
Hamas can stop this anytime they want by surrendering.
Islam provokes them to never do so, so the killings will continue.
It sounds like a good reason to not attack your enemies and kill or kidnap over a thousand of them. In looking back to see if Petti has any advice for Hamas along these lines I see only this:
It's an ethical question not just for Israelis carrying out the war, but also for Americans, who are providing both the funding and weapons that make the war effort possible.
Apparently there is no ethical dilemma for Hamas, at least according to Petti.
Well, there kind of isn't as Hamas does not subscribe to any ethical system resembling what Americans and Israelis do.
Hamas may or may not feel that way.
But in either case why does Petti?
I'd say war is always a bit of an ethical dilemma. Less so for Israel, because they need to fight to survive. But for the US it is optional and people get hurt either way.
You use Israel and ethics in the same sentence? Are you deranged? The IDF almost went to war with the occupiers of the West Bank because the IDF wanted to discipline Israeli guards that wanted to rape their prisoners. The West Bank civilian occupiers fought for the "right" of the Israeli guards to rape prisoners.
Oh, and btw, the civilian occupiers won.
The mask has dropped.
The ethical question for Americans is why our President was providing aid and building a pier to deliver that aid to people who were holding American citizens hostage. At the very least, any aid should have been contingent on releasing the American citizens unharmed, along with any other hostages.
Not to mention the billions he’s sent Iran, who funds Hezbollah and Hamas. The Biden administration is a sponsor of international terrorism.
Dumbass, the billions he "sent to Iran" was their own money that he or another president previously stole from them.
The purpose of hiding military assets among civilians is to generate these kind of numbers hoping that sympathy will win people over. It's very evil.
Why is there a lack of condemnation over the use of human shields?
Do you really think the democrats have a problem with that? I could absolutely see them employing that strategy.
Gaza strip is the most densely populated area on the planet. 2.2 million people. <100 sq. miles. Any place Hamas hides is going to be near lots and LOTS of civilians.
This is why the Geneva convention exists. It's a huge military advantage to hide your troops among civilians, but it's rather hard on the civilians.
Combatants should not be only able to differentiated by cell phone data.
Thus all the onus of civilian deaths is on Hamas, the side literally disguising themselves as civilians
Every single one of these deaths is directly attributable to Hamas breaking the cease fire with an attack solely on civilians.
Which was all by design. Knowing that the useful idiots in the EU and the US, plus the UN would have this reaction to Israel defending themselves.
Leftists are to blame.
Since when are the Palestinians property rights a left wing issue? This has been going on for 75 years, NOT just since 10/7.
shame Iran didn't care about their human shields.
Islamists place no value on human life. Kind of like democrats. Just pawns to be used to accomplish their political goals.
The Talmudists have laid claim to half of the middle east. So they have to massacre everyone in their way including children.
The world has rued the day the state of Isn'treal was created.
Lord Balfor is the real criminal behind it.
After 18 year of not massacring anyone in Gaza, I wonder why they suddenly started?
Israel attacked Gaza 4 times in those 18 years before 10/7.
Care to name them?
Abraham Accords about to go through. The only leverage the Pals have is that the other Arab states won't recognize Israel until they fix the Pal issue (theft of their land in '48). AA will remove that bargaining chip. Israel would then have no constraint against doing what they're doing now. Hamas thought that some hostages would keep everyone at the bargaining table, as the last hostage exchange they got several thousand hostages back from Israel in exchange for 2 IDF soldiers they had for several years. They were incorrect.
So you hate the Jews?
They are not Jews. They are Zionists. Talmudic Zionists. They are not Semites either; Ashkanazi Kazarians.
The Talmud is one of the worst manifestos against western white European civilization ever written.
I wonder if you are immune from honesty.
"Abysmal ignorance" will often suffice, especially when the shit is attempting some sort of supposed 'clarification'.
They’re Jews. Case closed. Let them live in peace.
Wow, not a single thing correct in that entire sophomoric shit. Not one correct fact at all. But fairly standard shit that Nazis and Klansman say about Jews. So which are you, the Seig Heil kind of the white sheet kind?
What is it with Jews that gets so many idiots fired up? There’s maybe 17 million of them in the whole fucking world. And about two thirds of them are located in the only country on earth they control. Which is not quite the size of New Jersey.
Yet there are nearly TWO BILLION Muslims. With a few hundred million of those being Islamists. Yet the Jews, who are generally peaceful (unlike Muslims).
Historically it's been largely because of usury laws. In many countries, Jews were the only ones allowed to lend and charge interest. This was the case both in much of Christian Europe and Muslim Near East and North Africa (and Muslim Europe). Also, they often were forced to live apart, and tended to be wards of the Kings, such that they were exempted from local laws. None of these things, mind you, were at the Jewish diasporas wishes, but generally implemented by a combination of the church and state. But the upshot was you had a population that lived outside of normal society, who your lords owed vast sums of money to (and guess where your lords got there money to pay the Jews) and thus tended to be more affluent but outside the normal laws. Basically, the Jewish people were despised because of the laws passed by non-Jews that set Jews apart from their fellow countrymen. Additionally, whenever the King and his barons had a disagreement, it was easy for the king to placate his subjects by forgiving their Jewish debts or banishing their Jewish lenders (as Edward I did in England during his reign).
As in so many of these things, it's transmitted itself through subsequent generations, that have forgotten the origins of their prejudices.
I want aware of that. It seems silly for that animosity to extend to the 21st century, since none of those things exist anymore.
More like Jews were not allowed to own land in those feudal societies. They lent money, became lawyers, physicians and middlemen. They had to become educated. They became more intelligent as a people, so non Jews started to envy and then hate them for their success which was not "supposed " to happen. Jesus certainly didn't promise that, nor did Mohammad.
Cowpucky. It's because they were tax farmers.
I'd say that the philosophy of Jewish supremacism is what's behind it, but hey toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe. I'll dump on British aristocracy anytime I get the chance.
Wow, it's almost like it was a very bad idea for those Hamas terrorists to pick this fight by massacring a a large number of non-combatants in an unprovoked surprise attack.
They didn't. Read the Hannibal Directive. It's on wikipedia. IDF did the massacring and blamed it on Hamas.
Why do so many people believe Israel's lies?
Hamas kidnaps, rapes and murders 1,400 Israeli and Americans they took hostage, and now we're supposed feel bad for the same people in Gaza who supported Hamas and believe their "cause" is just.
Nope.
It doesn't work that way with the sane.
Nothing in your comment is true. Except for taking the hostages. Rapes = false, no evidence, all returning hostages say they were well treated. Talmud and top military rabbis say rape is ok for Jews to rape. IDF prisoner guards got in fight with their commanders over raping their prisoners. West Bank civilian occupiers came to their aid and sided with the rapists.
Read the Hannibal Directive. It's on wikipedia. IDF did the murders on 10/7. Forensic evidence and Israeli witnesses confirm.
Biden started this war. And the Ukraine war.
Not quite sure how but Wingnuts say so.
Glad to see you've picked up strawman duty with sarcasmic.
Obviously Biden (who you support constantly in this forum) didn't start these wars. But do you ever wonder if his fiasco 3 years ago in AFG could have emboldened Putin and Hamas to make their attacks?
No. The sloppy pullout was scarcely noticed outside Fox News.
No one noticed the Americans giving back a country to the EXACT SAME group (who are followers of the same religion as Hamas) we took it from 20 years earlier, having taken thousands of casualties during that time? No events are connected in butplug world.
Much like how you say the Clinton admin bears zero blame for 9/11.
Much like how you expect us to believe there is no connection between your posting history and the fact that you had to change your handle.
You truly are the dumbest of dumbfucks posting here.
Domt forget giving that group billions in weapons.
Putin noticed. He also noticed how Biden’s executive orders strangled US energy production, which jacked up petroleum futures, enabling Russia to sell their oil for enough money fuel his Ukraine war machine. He also noticed that NATO didn’t do shit when he massed his troops on the Ukraine border.
Putin noticed. He wasn’t distracted by raping little boys. Not like you.
turd, the ass-wipe of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Now do the Russian/Ukraine war?
Oh wait, it doesn't fit into your Israel is bad story. Is there any country on the earth that is told to constraint itself when attacked as much as Israel.
Fact, citizens let HAMAs lead government. Fact HAMA uses human shields. Fact HAMAs puts bases under civilian buildings.
There are 5.2 million people in Palestine. Even if it's 10k, only 10k in a war over a year is a miracle.
Also FACT, Palestinians overwhelmingly support the 10/7 attacks and overwhelmingly support continued acts of terror in Israel and beyond.
And you are correct, Israel has conducted the most human war in human history. They are heroes.
Fact, Hamas heavily funded by Likud and Bibi. Bibi on record as stating that if you don't want a Palestinian/2 state "solution" you have to support Israeli government supporting Hamas. Fact, IDF is the one using human shields - many photos. No pics of Hamas doing so. Gaza strip 2.2 million people in <100 sq miles. No place to put ANYTHING far from civilians. Israeli claims that Hamas had base under hospital shown to be hoax and fraud. Fact, virtually every building in Gaza has been destroyed. If more than 10% of those HAVEN'T been killed, it'll be a miracle.
It is beyond debate.
Gaza must unconditionally surrender.
Or else.
I'm all out of fucks to give for the Palestinians. Piss off.
I feel the same for the Israelis.
Yeah but no one cares what you're Nazi ass feels.
Scepter the Israelis leave other s alone when they’re left alone.
Are you a neo Nazi, or an Islamist?
Israel leaves others alone? What utter nonsense.
And the Israelis feel the same regarding Nazi shits like you.
War is hell. The people of Gaza elected Hamas to lead them, and Hamas chose to start a war with Israel, with a terrorist attack so heinous that military retribution was guaranteed. Even so, Hamas could have ended all of the civilian casualties at any time after that, by releasing all of the hostages illegally abducted from Israel, and surrendering those who conducted and planned the attack to face justice for their crimes. Yet they chose not to, even though it was obvious that thousands more of their people would die if they continued to fight a losing battle.
Nothing you said is true. Likud and Bibi brought Hamas to power in the '90s. Read what Bibi has said about Hamas in Israeli newspapers prior to 2000. Israel started the war in '48 when they ethnically "cleansed" the Pals into the West Bank and Gaza. The attack on 10/7 was completely justified. The mass casualties were created by IDF - read the Hannibal Directive. Forensic evidence and Israeli witness accounts confirm. Israel abducts Pal hostages daily and currently has around 20,000. Last time they exchanged, the Pals got several thousand back for 2 IDF soldiers. Most of the casualties and hostages are IDF reservists (rank published in newspaper). The kibbutzim in the Gaza area are all militarized outposts, keeping guard over the open air prison that is Gaza.
1. I'm not taking 'research' from an organization called 'Airwars.com'.
2. Cross-checked *whose* casualty lists?
3. There's an assumption that the social media and tv crews had sufficient coverage to record all the dead?
4. "For example, the Israeli military killed Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari on October 31, 2023, by dropping American-made 2,000-lb bunker buster bombs on the Jabalia refugee camp." In other words, the Palestinians tolerated military encampments co-located with civilians - including 'civilian Palestinians' taking part in the October terrorist attacks - and paid the price of doing that. They chose to be human shields and we're . . . supposed to do what?
5. "Amnesty International concluded last week that the Israeli war in Gaza constitutes a "genocide against Palestinians" because "the destruction of Palestinians in Gaza, as such, was Israel's intent, either in addition to, or as a means to achieve, its military aims." - Ignoring the Palestinian genocide against Jews.
6. 'The Airwars report did not come to any conclusion about Israel's intent. It states that the research is only "intended to cut through the 'fog of war'—to provide an evidence base that offers civilians a route to accountability, to give policy makers the tools they need to make decisions that protect civilians, and to present an accurate and comprehensive picture even in the most contested of battlefields."' But not accountability of the Palestinians? Just the Jews.
According to Sarc, those are all ad hominem attacks. Somehow.
What if your ad-hom strawman came up against a hastily generalized false analogy? Like a bear in a car trunk, for example. Would you be tempted to argue from incredulity? Or resort to magical thinking?
Honestly, its articles like this that keep me back from donating.
Petti is pushing propaganda that disguises itself as shitty 'research'. And holds Israel up to an impossible moral standard - while ignoring the actions of the Palestinians or ever contextualizing Israel's actions compared to other countries like China, Russia, Iran, Syria, practically anywhere outside the largest of the African nations, etc.
It wouldn’t shock me to find out that at least half the Reason staff saw what happened in 10/7 thought that Israel had it coming.
So morality is just civilian deaths? Doesn't that make the Germans the moral actors in WWII just from the air campaign, let alone if we attribute the death camp figures to Britain as this "research" does in the current conflict. Good to see Petti once again justifying genocide.
Oh wow, in one month Jews killed more civilians in Palestine than the Bush pig Americans in Iraq.
Only days before 10/7 the Jews were providing funding, energy, and healthcare to Gaza. They allowed Muslims representation in their government. It is by far the most tolerant society in that region. But after one terrorist incident, they just decided "it morbin and genocide time"
If you're implying that Israel is purposely targeting women an children - what can I say? Note that many of them would be alive if Muslim countries took them in as refugees. They won't, because for all their jew jate, they understand that Palenstine is a terrorist state. It is not North Korea, a hermit fascist state where powerless people suffer under dictatorship. No, in Palestine the Hamas is a government that enjoys thriving support from their bigoted theocratic people. They carry out their mandates.
The inconvenient truth is that the distinction between "Hamas" and "civilians" in Gaza is likely close to nonexistent. Do you think Hamas kidnapped thousands of women and held them above their base? No. The citizens almost certainly collaborated with them. They (or at least some) are for all intents and purposes, civilian militia for Hamas. If the main body is cut off, they would gladly form offshoots elsewhere and become a source of regional conflict like the one that befell Syria.
Show me another part of the world where unending civil war kills 100,000 people a year. Would 90% of Japanese split their vote among Hamas and Fatah? We know exactly what Palestine is. Repeat after me - a terrorist state. No different than a nation ran by white only KKK. You know fighting a war in which most civilians are complicit in their government terrorism is unlike most wars, including the Ukrainian war.
How to not get blown up by the IDF (a step by step guide):
1. Don't elect terrorists to be your leaders.
2. If step 1 fails, don't willingly allow the terrorists to build a rocket launcher on top of (or in) your house.
3. If step 2 fails and they build rocket launchers on or in your house anyway, leave. Go somewhere else. Report them to your nearest IDF soldier for committing war crimes and putting you in danger.
4. If you spot an air-dropped leaflet from the IDF telling you to leave an area because they are going to blow it up, follow those directions. Leave the area immediately. Take your loved ones and as many important possessions as you can and go.
Spot on.
All that would work if you did not live in an area controlled by an authoritarian terrorist group. Remember it is not just terrorism inflicted by Hamas on Jews but also their own people. So,
- when last election in Gaza, 2006,
- what happen if you refuse Hamas, they kill you, maybe your family,
- IDF drops leaflet telling you to leave the area, Hamas tell you to stay or be killed by them.
There are more of them than there are of Hamas members.
They're just fine parachuting in with Hamas to kill Israeli civilians - they can be just fine with chopping their Hamas neighbor.
You start doing that a few times and Hamas' people start getting real polite.
5. Don't start a war where whining is your most potent weapon.
Well, the report is not surprising it is common for the innocents to be the greatest victims in any war. I suspect that many if not most of the Palestinians in Gaza have little use for Hamas but have little in the way of alternatives. Certainly, children should not be lumped in with those supporting Hama. Groups like Hamas rule with their own terror. I suspect many Palestinians would like to just live their lives and instead find themselves living in a nightmare waiting for the next bomb to drop. I hope that when all things are settled including the dust, we, that all of us can find a way to make life better for the innocents in the Middle East including the Jews, the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Syrians and any I have missed.
Yes, innocents. Like the people Muslims murdered on 10/7. And unlike the ‘Palestinians’ who either participated in that massacre, or wholeheartedly supported it (like you).
So stop with your jew hating bullshit.
Wow, you think the dead children were Hamas supporters! We have little idea how much support Hamas has in Gaza, because people living there don't have much choice. Hamas is an authoritarian regime and just like in Russia, China, North Korea, people don't get to pick your leaders.
And, just like any other oppressive regime, the people pay the price for their leaders' hurbris. Why should Israel put the lives of the enemy before the lives of its own people. You can argue that the average Palestinian isn't their enemy until your blue in the face, and I will for many reasons disagree with you, but even if I were to concede the point to avoid a discursive straw-man, the question stands. Hamas (and the PLO) have charters that call not just for the destruction of the State of Israel, but for the deaths of every Jew in Israel. Not just soldiers and government officials, the women and children and eldery and non-combatants, too. Why on Gods Green Earth would Israel say "Gosh, we should leave Israeli children in harms way so that Palestinian children will be safe!" Fuck that noise. If someone comes for my kids with their baby on board then, if the baby dies, that sucks, but my kids are still alive. That's called mission fucking accomplished.
One of the biggest myths is that civilians are never considered valid military targets. This is pure bullshit. When you bomb a munitions factory, or a telephone switchboard, or a major harbor, who do you think is working in these very valid military targets? The fact is, a lot of targets will be civilians and it goes up even more when the enemy forces embed themselves into the civilian population. Should Grant have not taken Vicksburg because there were more civilians than military in Vicksburg (and more civilians killed)?
The fact is civilian deaths actually are increased during a ground campaign. Taking an urban area with ground forces is far deadlier than hitting targets from the air. The USAAF and USN bombed the hell out of Okinawa but the vast majority of civilians were killed during the ground campaign. We bombed the fuck out of Berlin, but far more German civilians died when the Soviet army took Berlin. Any group trying to portray air power as some unique danger to civilian populations has never studied war or history, and definitely never studied or participated in urban warfare. Using airpower actually limits civilian casualties not increases them. So any organization calling itself airwars.com is already suspect because their basic premise is completely wrong.
And guess who was one of the first (in the modern age - in the old days they killed everyone not enslaved) to declare civilian infrastructure, including farmers, a military target?
The U.S. Army.
William T. Sherman, Military Division of the Mississippi Special Field Order 120, November 9, 1864:
V. To army corps commanders alone is intrusted the power to destroy mills, houses, cotton-gins, &c., and for them this general principle is laid down: In districts and neighborhoods where the army is unmolested no destruction of such property should be permitted; but should guerrillas or bushwhackers molest our march, or should the inhabitants burn bridges, obstruct roads, or otherwise manifest local hostility, then army commanders should order and enforce a devastation more or less relentless according to the measure of such hostility.
The Imperial Germany Army committed the atrocities in Belgium (though far less often than popularly portrayed) often as the result of either deliberate or perceived guerilla activities (did similar in the Franco-Prussian war). The fact is, is that partisan/guerilla/terrorist use the civilian population as camouflage and you either ignore the activity or respond and likely kill civilians in the process. Neither is a good option, the former results in more casualties for your forces and demoralizes your forces, the latter plays into your enemies hands.
Love or hate Sherman, it worked.
And had Sherman not done that, the war would have gone in for years more.
Sherman was right when he said that one must make war as cruel as possible so as to make it as short as possible. Israel didn't follow Sherman's advice.
Besides the Confederates in Georgia and South Carolina deserved everything Sherman gave them. They has started a war to preserve their "rights" to enslave Black people. I know that a lot of libertarians would not have a problem with that, of course.
I write as someone whose direct ancestors were South Carolina Confederates who experienced Sherman come marching through.
Also Sherman:
You also remember well who first burned the bridges of your railroad, who forced Union men to give up their slaves to work on the rebel forts at Bowling Green, who took wagons and horses and burned houses of persons differing with them honestly in opinion, when I would not let our men burn fence rails for fire or gather fruit or vegetables though hungry, and these were the property of outspoken rebels. We at that time were restrained, tied by a deep seated reverence for law and property. The rebels first introduced terror as a part of their system, and forced contributions to diminish their wagon trains and thereby increase the mobility and efficiency of their columns.
When General Buell had to move at a snail's pace with his vast wagon trains, Bragg moved rapidly, living on the country. No military mind could endure this long, and we are forced in self defense to imitate their example. To me this whole matter seems simple. We must, to live and prosper, be governed by law, and as near that which we inherited as possible. Our hitherto political and private differences were settled by debate, or vote, or decree of a court. We are still willing to return to that system, but our adversaries say no, and appeal to war. They dared us to war, and you remember how tauntingly they defied us to the contest. We have accepted the issue and it must be fought out. You might as well reason with a thunder-storm.
War is the remedy our enemies have chosen. Other simple remedies were within their choice. You know it and they know it, but they wanted war, and I say let us give them all they want; not a word of argument, not a sign of let up, no cave in till we are whipped or they are.
Beginning the article like this:
>> "Is it fair to call the ministry "Hamas-run"? Did they tell the truth about the Ahli Hospital bombing?"
...as if those are serious questions, destroys the credibility of the piece.
I wonder if it's just bad writing style or whether Petti is sufficiently biased that he thinks those are matters of dispute among non-ignorant people.
The Palestinian Authority IS Hamas so why would you believe any of their statistics? There was a simple way for Palestinian civilians to end this almost immediately. Go tell the first IDF soldier you see where Uncle Ahmad is hiding the hostages. It's not like Gazans don't know, Hamas is everywhere. This entire situation is the result of Gazans voting Hamas into power, and they are paying the price for their stupidity and complicity. Just leave Israel the hell alone and none of this would have happened. Libertarians are fond of "F*** Around And Find Out" -- Well the Gazans found out. When your "Government's" stated goal is the death of every single Jew, you might expect a serious response to an attack like October 7th.
The PA and Hamas are not the same organization. PA is in charge of Areas A and B, not Gaza.
Simple question for you, what happens when Hamas, who you say is everywhere, see a person talking with a an IDF soldier? I think that many Palestinians just keep their heads down and struggle to get through the day.
And in those 26 incidents, the killing was still incredibly lopsided, with 32 militants killed in total, at a cost of 522 civilian lives.
This is almost exactly how Israel programmed their AI that 'selects' targets. 20 civilian dead are acceptable for anyone who isn't important enough to waste a smart bomb on but whom the AI 'recognizes' as 'similar to Hamas'. Which means - 'adult male' which the AI selects 90% of the time. In particular, doctors, paramedics, aid workers or anyone else with a job, anyone with a cell phone which they change more than once in a blue moon.
The US 'standard' for collateral dead was 30 - for Osama bin Ladin. Zero for nobodies. The Israel 'standard' for collateral dead - of 20 dead for what they claimed to be 40,000 Hamas militants equals -- 800,000 civilians. Which is yet another example of genocidal intent.
You’re an Islamist propagandist. Perhaps you would be more comfortable spouting your propaganda over at Stormfront. They would be receptive to your a it Jew hatred and it’s there.
Another analysis of the destruction of Gaza - and in particular how completely irrelevant it is to any claimed focus on Hamas is by Forensic Architecture - A Spatial Analysis of Israel's Military Activity in Gaza since October 2023
Only Americans are completely oblivious useful idiots re what is going on there.
Fuck off and die, Nazi shit.
The crazy thing is that report doesn't include the mention of Hamas even once. NOT ONCE. They set out with an intention to prove their bias. They could only do so by not mentioning the terrorist entity running the government and entrenching themselves among the population of the weakest civilians. This link is absolute garbage.
They document the attacks on civilian infrastructure - 'safe zones' where Israel has told people to go, aid centers, hospitals, schools, residential buildings, etc. To a level that will be admissible as evidence in court. Specifically to South Africa though as independent research based on open source data. It is up to Israel to counter each and every attack on civilians with some explanation of how they rationalize that specific attack as targeting Hamas/militants. The bullshit propaganda that Israel uses to bamboozle the US - 'Hamas uses human shields' (with NEVER a single example or any variance in any explanation for any attack) - is NOT evidence. It is propaganda that the US media then parrots endlessly in order to create a big lie.
And BTW - there are 62 mentions of Hamas in the report
FOAD, Nazi shit.
Good comeback.
Yet as I skim through it again and even try the tried and true CTRL+F, I see 0 references. Even the opening paragraph; the introduction to when the war started, mentions nothing of the invasion of Israel.
There are 62 references for Hamas in the PDF file.
They generally fall into 3 main categories:
* "Since 2007, when Hamas took power" or a syntactic variant on that.
* In titles of articles referenced in footnotes, but where Hamas is not discussed in the document text to which the footnote is applied.
* In quotes from Israeli leaders
I also determined that there is not a single reference to 7 Oct that mentions anything Hamas terrorists did in Israel. All references to 7 Oct are used in the form of "As a result of the Israeli military campaign in Gaza, between 7 October 2023 and 1 August 2024" or similar text. As if Israel just up a decided to wage war in Gaza for no reason whatsoever.
Dear lord, you think AI is being used for anything that isn't generating fake social media profiles . . . .
All that tells me is that the Israelis are more efficient and more lethal at battlefield warfare than Hamas. There is no moral mean of proportionality. The most fundamental goal in warfare is to kill significantly more of the enemy than the enemy kills of you, and prior to Israel taking the gloves off, the people of Gaza were cheering and lauding the October 7th attacks and chanting antisemitic screed. Its only know that they've paid the price that they are abandoning Hamas.
Further, Hamas was well aware that Israel had the firepower to make this happen and intentionally built its terror infrastructure under schools, playgrounds, hospitals, and apartment buildings, knowing that the casualties would be disproportionate so that they could manipulate ignorant Western minds in the propaganda war. In other words, it was Hamas' strategy to get civilians killed, and that will always happen at a disproportionate rate. They then decided to push so hard and violate the norms of the conflict so far that Israel had little choice but to double down, go all in, and call their bluff.
The vast majority of the onus for civilian deaths in Gaza sits squarely on the shoulders of Hamas. Only weak and coddled first-world minds don't get it. Fat, wealthy, and stupid. I don't have any sympathy for them, or for you.
Hamas is not even remotely an existential threat to Israel. You admit that without admitting that. What is an existential threat to Israel is a)a state of perma-war that eliminates the ability of Israel to maintain a militia/reserve based army and b)the destruction of all their friendships (or at least some elements of non-pariah status) outside the US and c)the destruction of the US' military footprint in the Middle East and d)the elimination of the notion that Israel is the safest haven for Jews in the world.
You are just making excuses. Israel's strategy in Gaza is failing bad. Even if they succeed in eliminating the entire population there.
East shit and die, Nazi scum.
Good comeback. Not relevant to his comment.
Godwin's law prevails again.
If they should eliminate the entire population, I've not a doubt in my mind that leaders of several nations in the area would, in private, of course, relish the result. There's ample reasons why pretty much no one gives Palestinians refuge. Ask Jordan, Syria, Lebanon...
The "Palestinian" population multiplied several times since 1948, all while Israel supposedly was genociding them. That's an amazingly ineffective genocide, almost like Israel has kept deaths as low as it can while still doing something to defend itself.
But the Arabs have been trying to wipe out the Israelis ever since 1928 (and got outfought every time - even when the ruling British authorities gave guns to the Arabs and attempted to confiscate guns from the Israelis.) Given this history, I have to conclude that anyone accusing the Israelis of "genocide" aren't upset about genocide, but only that the group dying is not the same one that Hitler targeted.
Perhaps "Gaza" should have thought about that before launching their horrific attack on Israel.
Isreal is in the same position as the Allies WRT Japan in '45; Isreal has to kill enough Hamas until the Hamas decide they've suffered enough. If that means all of them, so be it.
Not a good idea to start a war where your whining is your best weapon.
I have no problem with that. I’m sick of Islam, and the global misery its adherents inflict globally. Time for them to learn to play nice, or they can all go away if need be,
Same with democrats. The gloves need to come off. No more Marxism.
There aren't any Marxist Democrats.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
And Politifact said the Haitian cats story was the "lie of the year", they didn't see this one!
Any? No. Most, yes.
A lot of commenters here think Jews are sub human and deserve to be raped, kidnapped, and murdered.
Yes, the democrat commenters think that. Leave the Jews alone.
As others here have said:
Hamas uses human shields and co locates military assets among civilians.
That makes Hamas responsible for civilian casualties.
Hamas could end the war at any time by releasing the American and Israeli hostages.
President Biden building a pier at great expense to send supplies mostly stolen by those holding American hostages was wrong.
Israel has shown remarkable restraint in its conduct of the war.
Other countries, including the U.S. have never shown the same restraint.
Israel was at peace with the Hamas run governments of Gaza on October 6 and supplied electricity and water to Gaza.
They have continued to supply food and water that is mostly stolen by enemy combatants and prolongs the war.
The civilian population of Gaza supported and participated in the attack and helped hide the hostages. They are complicit and acting as a kind of militia.
Other Arab countries could easily take in the women and children as refugees and prevent their deaths.
Egypt and other Arab countries have refused to do so, likely because of past Palestinian behavior destabilizing host countries.
Did I say Hamas could end the killing?
This headline and article are dead wrong, and simply repeat left wing and Islamic anti American/Israeli propaganda.
In fact, the IDF's war against Biden/Iranian financed/supplied Islamic terrorists in Gaza, Palestine, Syria and Iran has been far better than anyone had previously thought possible.
Hopefully and likely, Trump and Netanyahu will retaliate against the crazy Iranian Mullahs by reimposing Trump's financial sanctions and IDF destroying their nuclear missile capabilities.
Then, an internal toppling of the Iranian Mullahs could help bring decades of peace throughout the middle east.
Hamas fucked around, the Palestinian people, who supported Hamas, found out. That's how the real world works, Petti. Hamas built its terror infrastructure under schools, hospitals, government buildings, playgrounds, and apartment towers, thereby rendering them, after the severity and scale of the October 7th attack, legitimate targets. That's how the actual law of war, rather than pansy-ass self-serving lefty readings of it, reads. Let's put our cards on the table, Petti. Hamas' very charter calls not only for the destruction of the State of Israel but the deaths of every Israeli Jew, man, woman, and child. Why, then, should Israel pull its punches or put the lives of their enemies, and the average Palestinian is an enemy of not only Israelis but Jews as a whole, before the lives of their own people? They needed to be sent a message. There is a very easy way for the Palestinian terror organizations to bring this to an end: stop fucking around and stop finding out. The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Its time for them to grow up and actually come to the table in good faith. Until that happens? I couldn't care less if every city block in Gaza is flattened. Your moralizing is weak tea whose leaves read like the mad scrivenings of a backwards soul.
Netanyahu gave someone in Hamas billions in untraceable cash.
Now he’s an international criminal for committing crimes against humanity.
That isn’t fucking around.
You're a Nazi shit; fuck off and die.
Nazi?
Does committing holocaust’s define Nazis? The Jews of Israel are doing that today.
Or does the recognition that Israel is a filthy genocidal terrorist state make someone a Nazi? The UN, Amnesty International and most of the world is recognizing that today.
With bogeymen everywhere, your delusional bubble is getting smaller.
You're a Nazi shit; fuck off and die a slow and painful death.
Ad hominem.
You can't refute Misek. He's right, and
YOU
ARE
WRONG.
And a loser.
Goddamn Misek. Now you’re samefagging? Guess that makes sense, given what a Nazi fag you are.
It’s still pathetic, even for you.
Oh look, Petti is doing the whole pro-terrorism/anti-semitism thing again that all the little college neo-nazis love.
I honestly have to admit that as a Jew I find the numerous Zionist bootlicking genocide supporters posting to this article to be extremely disgusting individuals.
Somebody needs to get you bastards back on your meds!
Apparently, you’re a Nazi for recognizing that.
How much have Jews contributed to modern society? How many Nobel prizes for science have they won?
I don't think it's outlandish to say that without Jews, we'd probably be 100 years behind in technology. Maybe more.
Meanwhile, what sort of things have Arabs done? Oh yeah, they did a good job 1000 years ago, and Arabic notation is great. But not much lately.
And yet the difference is not due to genetics, since both are from the same region. It's almost entirely due to culture. Jews value life, while far too many Arabs, especially Palestinians, value death, because they view it as a goal to their afterlife in paradise.
Depravity speaks.
Yes, Nazi shits like you are definitely depraved.
How many lives does a physician have to save to give them a free pass to murder?
Seriously. This is your best reasoning?
Hitler gassed anti-Zionists too. Hamas would rape your daughter and kill you. We Zionists are not the bastards here.
Refuted! Hahaha
Your lying waste of skin Zionist brethren are not only committing a holocaust (not bastard enough for you?) but you’re trying to justify it by claiming that you’re @mire valuable people’ than those you’re trying to destroy to steal their land.
Refuted.
"I honestly have to admit that as a Jew I find the numerous Zionist bootlicking genocide supporters posting to this article to be extremely disgusting individuals."
I honestly have to admit that as a human, I find the numerous lying piles of steaming Nazi shit posting to this article extremely disgusting, lying pile of steaming Nazi shit.
Told you.
Stupid fucking Jews.
Yes, Nazi, Nazi shit. Fuck off and die.
There has long been a strong anti-Semitic tendency among libertarians and this is Exhibit A.
If Hamas didn't want its people killed it should not have started a war.
The civilian casualties are FAR lower than a lot of urban conflicts of the past century. Nanjing, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Manila, Budapest, Berlin....The IDF has kept casualties two orders of magnitude lower.
And Hamas's long stated goal is to eliminate the Jewish presence in the region. Actual genocide. Which the author and a lot of commenters support here.
“Actual genocide” is what Israel is on trial for in the United Nations International Court of Justice and why there are international arrest warrants for Netanyahu.
Self defense against an a agressor is not "actual genocide", Nazi shit.
Tell that to the whiny Brooklyn Jews in the West Bank that use that excuse to steal land and murder its inhabitants.
Misek, stop samefagging.
A lot of commenters here think Jews are sub human and deserve to be raped, kidnapped, and murdered.
The war would end immediately if the genocidal Hamas terrorists surrender and release the hostages.
The world recognizes that you’re the fuckwits committing a holocaust. You are the bogeyman of your own meme.
Does that mean nothing to you?
^This criminal BEHAVIOUR Is why Jews have always been persecuted wherever they lived in numbers.
The world is no longer buying what you’re selling. Pooor persecuted Jews my ass!
"...Pooor persecuted Jews my ass!..."
Nazi shit is jealous; wishes he had accomplished something with his wasted life.
FOAD, asshole.
The world is recognizing that Jews aren’t the people we’ve been brainwashed to believe they are.
Their actions today in Gaza have proven that for all time.
But Jews and their followers haven’t given up. It’s not like they haven’t been found out before. Persecuted and shunned everywhere they’ve ever lived. But here they are again, this time leading the west in committing a holocaust.
Lying is the same old trick up their sleeve. It, applied globally with the financial and psychological power of propaganda is ALL they rely on.
Who chants this on their “holiest” day?
“All vows, obligations, oaths, and anathemas [curses]which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect: they shall not bind us nor have any power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligations; nor the oaths be oaths.”
FOAD, steaming pile of Nazi shit.
Nazi?
Does committing holocaust’s define Nazis? The Jews of Israel are doing that today.
Or does the recognition that Israel is a filthy genocidal terrorist state make someone a Nazi? The UN, Amnesty International and most of the world is recognizing that today.
With bogeymen everywhere, your delusional bubble is getting smaller.
Yes, Nazi, Nazi shit. FOAD.
Jews and Nazis, like peanut butter and chocolate.
What’s one without the other?
Hahaha
Yes, Nazi, Nazi shit. Fuck off and die.
Refuted.
Who chants this? Supremacists.
Yebamoth 98a: ALL NON-JEW CHILDREN ARE ANIMALS
Sanhedrin 57a: WHEN A JEW MURDERS A NON-JEW. THERE WILL BE NO DEATH PENALTY
Kethuboth Ilb: A MAN WHO ENGAGED IN INTERCOURSE WITH A GIRL LESS THAN 3 YEARS OF AGE HAS DONE NOTHING
Shabbath lIba: JEWS MUST DESTROY BOOKS OF THE CHRISTIANS, THE NEW TESTAMENT
Baba Mezia 14b: THE NON-JEWS ARE NOT HUMAN THEY ARE BEASTS.
Zohar. Toldoth Noah 63b: WHEN THE MESSIAH COMES EVERY JEW WILL HAVE 2800 SLAVES
Gitten 57a: JESUS IS IN HELL BEING BOILED IN HOT EXCREMENT
Sannedrin 57a: WHAT A JEW STEALS FROM A NON-JEW HE MAY KEEP
Sanhedrin 58b: IF A NON-JEW HITS A JEW HE MUST BE KILLED
Yalkut 245c: EXTERMINATION OF THE CHRISTIANS IS NECESSARY SACRIFICE
Zohar 1160a: JEWS MUST ALWAYS TRY TO DECEIVE CHRISTIANS
If Jews believed themselves to be ethical and moral, they would have far less to worry about being a minority. The majority would admire or tolerate them for their honesty and diligence.
But what if much of Jewish diligence goes into defrauding the goyim, and Jews can’t resist this temptation.
Then, being a minority could be hazardous. The majority will wake up and strike back, as happened in Germany in the 30s and to a far lesser extent Russia post-90s(but alarming enough for Jews).
109 countries and counting. if i were tossed from 109 bars i wouldn't think it was due to their hatred of me or their jealousy of my sharp threads, i would know by bar 3 that i was effing up somehow and change my behavior.
That's what happens when your religion teaches you that your people are God's chosen master race destined to rule the world and that all góyim are "beasts in human form, without souls, created to serve us".
" Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves . . . politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves . . . The country is theirs because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. "
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister)
Quoted S. Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians" pp 141-2, citing a 1938 speech.
Refuted. Now fuck off Misek.
So? They're reaping what they sowed.
What did Netanyahu sow with the billions in untraceable cash he sneakily gave to Hamas?
This video proves that Israel, funded, coordinated and enabled the October 7 attacks.
https://richardgage911.substack.com/p/new-documentary-on-gaza-october-7
It shows that Israel opened the gate to welcome trucks carrying Hamas through the wall.
It shows how Israel not only ignored repeated warnings from their many surveillance sources but withdrew all defences from the wall and emptied their military bases just hours before the attack
It shows that Israel didn’t respond to the incursion for more than 6 hours. Allowing the few Hamas attackers free access to concert goers, kibbutz members and young women IDF surveillance operators.
It shows and proves that after that 6 hour window the IDF attacked the concert goers and the kibbutz’s with Apache helicopters and tanks to blame Hamas.
It shows that Netanyahu sacrificed dozens of IDF forces to blame Hamas.
It shows that only handfuls of Hamas soldiers wandered for hours through the evacuated areas looking for soldiers to fight but finding none.
It shows that the hostages that were taken by Hamas said they were treated well.
It shows that Israel/Netanyahu has funded Hamas with billions in cash in suitcases in the backs of cars for many years.
With all this evidence you’d have to be a willfully ignorant idiot or lying Kol Nidre boy not to recognize it as an inside job.
Fuck off and die, Nazi shit.
Refuted.
Petti writes: "Hamas raided Israeli towns and villages on October 7, 2023, killing 815 civilians, including 36 children, and 380 military personnel. Its fighters shot Israelis and foreigners in their houses, bomb shelters, and music festivals at close range"
This is an egregious lie.
Almost all of the Israeli casualties were inflicted by the IDF in accordance with The Hannibal Directive (look it up), and as per Israeli eye witnesses attempting to leave the area. Hamas wanted HOSTAGES not dead bodies. The forensic evidence shows that most of the attacks were from helicopters. Please stop the bullshit. It's a safe bet that anything coming out of Bibi's administration is a lie - check around before naively repeating it. Also anything that makes Israel look like anything other than what it is - a monstrous organization of sociopathic mass murderers. Most moral army in history, my ass. The mask has finally dropped.
Refuted.
Genocidal Zionazi lying scum and their useful idiot Goys in the brainwashed/dead "free and democratic" west are just mad because the Jewish lies can be refuted in near real time as they carry out their sickening genocide and ethnic cleansing across the Levant.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2024/03/ralph-nader-real-gaza-death-toll-at-least-200000.html