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United States

Experts Wonder, Is America Truly in Decline?

The ā€œcureā€ to national decline might be part of the disease.

J.D. Tuccille | 5.8.2024 7:00 AM

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An austere black-and-white photo of a bald eagle, head cast slightly downward. | Ian Dyball | Dreamstime.com
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Is the U.S. toast? Reports of America's death have been greatly exaggerated for decades. But every human endeavor does, eventually, come to an end. Now RAND, the granddaddy of think tanks, has a report out that takes for granted the decline of the United States and asks if it can be returned to its former glory. For those of us living amidst seemingly growing chaos, it's a reminder that nothing is forever—except perhaps the hubris of experts who see opportunity in a crisis.

"History is full of great powers that hit their peak of competitive power and then stagnate and eventually decline," wrote Michael J. Mazarr, Tim Sweijs, and Daniel Tapia, authors of The Sources of Renewed National Dynamism. "There are fewer cases of great powers that have confronted such headwinds and managed to generate a repeated upward trajectory—to renew their power and standing in both absolute and relative terms. Arguably, that is precisely the challenge that faces the United States."

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Tales of Decline, Old and New

Predictions of the nation's demise aren't new. In the years of "malaise," the 1979 movie Americathon portrayed a bankrupt United States placing hopes on a televised fundraiser. It's opposed by the United Hebrab Republic, a Middle Eastern superpower founded on "the hots for anything blonde with a tush."

On a more serious note (unfortunately), after a decade of 1980s prosperity, Michael Prowse noted for the Harvard Business Review in 1992 that "a nation once celebrated for its irrepressible optimism now appears to be obsessed by decline." He described still-familiar concerns about productivity, wage growth, neglected infrastructure, and federal deficits.

Sixty-nine percent of respondents told pollsters for The Hill in 2011 that the country is "in decline" because of economic woes and declining international clout. Fifty-seven percent thought kids wouldn't live better lives than their parents.

In 2024, the whole MAGA movement assumes America needs to be made great again.

Jacques Barzun's impressive 2001 book From Dawn to Decadence took a broader view, arguing that western civilization has run through its life cycle and lost dynamism. "The forms of art as of life seem exhausted, the stages of development have been run through. Institutions function painfully." The result is less collapse than inertia and cultural erosion.

Reversing Decline

So, worries about decline aren't new. But, whatever the timing, all things eventually end. The authors of The Sources of Renewed National Dynamism take it for granted that we've passed peak America. Slowing productivity, an aging population, polarized politics, and shrinking prestige have us at a disadvantage. "Left unchecked, these trends will threaten domestic and international sources of competitive standing, thus accelerating what is—at the time of writing—the relative decline in U.S. standing."

Worse, they add, "recovery from significant long-term national decline is rare and difficult to detect in the historical record. When great powers have slid from a position of preeminence or leadership because of domestic factors, they seldom reversed this trend."

Examples they cite of countries that anticipated decay and engaged in reforms to revive themselves include Britain in the 1840s and 1850s, the United States after the 1890s, and the late-Cold War Soviet Union. In the case of Britain, reforms "expanded the voting franchise, addressed working conditions for women and children, expanded educational opportunities, addressed the environmental cost of industrialization, and much more." In the U.S., the Progressive movement addressed "rising inequality, social tensions over workers' rights, the environmental and social risks of uncontrolled industrialization, and elements of political corruption, including close connections between business interests and political actors." The Soviet Union, of course, tried to become far less Soviet by backing off socialism and totalitarianism. The Soviet Union no longer exists, so those efforts were a failure.

But the problem, the authors admit, is that these countries "had not yet declined significantly (if at all) when these processes began, and it is not clear how severely their competitiveness would have otherwise suffered." Did the Progressive movement really save the U.S. from early decline?

"As in the British case, we cannot know for certain what impact these challenges would have had if left unaddressed," concede Mazarr, Sweijs, and Tapia. "The United States was a burgeoning industrial power likely to continue expanding its relative economic and technological power even without the surge of reform and resulting renewal that took place in this era."

Solution or Snake Oil?

That leaves the authors touting policies they like that might have, in two out of three cases, pulled nations out of downward spirals. Or maybe not. In Illiberal Reformers, published in 2017, Princeton University economic historian Thomas C. Leonard argued that progressives did an enormous amount of damage to the United States by hampering economic liberty and promoting pseudo-scientific racism.

"The progressive economists' outsized confidence in their own wisdom and objectivity was matched only by their belief in the transformative promise of the administrative state," commented Leonard.

Maybe, instead of forestalling Gilded Age degeneration, their "reforms" accelerated the arrival of the current moment of national decline. It's easy to look around and see hostile factions vying for control of an administrative state powerful enough to punish enemies—and hamper opportunity and innovation that could keep society viable. That is, the "solution" could be a big part of the problem.

The danger is that Mazarr, Sweijs, and Tapia could be right in their diagnosis, but wrong in prescribing solutions that would further empower the political class that got us here. The U.S. is certainly troubled: Politics are messy and too often violent, the government is spending itself (and us) into a corner, and some Americans clearly don't believe in America. That's grounds for concern, and it's natural that people who care about the country would look for means of reversing the decay and restoring dynamism.

Unfortunately, though, there's also an opening for political opportunists and well-intentioned true believers to peddle ideological snake oil as the cure for an ailing nation. Did the treatment work in the past? Maybe. The patients survived—sometimes.

Unfortunately, there's no way to know if a country is really on its way out until it's nothing but an entry in history books, or what might have saved countries that otherwise would have failed but didn't.

Does that leave us to fret over a country quite possibly in decline? Yes, it does. And there's no sure solution.

The Rattler is a weekly newsletter from J.D. Tuccille. If you care about government overreach and tangible threats to everyday liberty, this is for you.

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NEXT: Brickbat: We All Scream

J.D. Tuccille is a contributing editor atĀ Reason.

United StatesAmerican ExceptionalismProsperityAmericansSoviet UnionEnglandOpportunityLaw & Government
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  1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

    So which nation was drowning from being a free nation and socialism/communism saved it? Pretty sure history has a pretty solid record on those two accounts.

    1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

      Is the purpose of government to coerce the judiciary?

      ā€œ A group of AIPAC-funded Republican Senators sent a letter to the International Criminal Court’s chief prosecutor threatening him with retribution if he dares to issue arrest warrants against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli officials…

      ā€œTarget Israel and we will target you,ā€ the senators tell Khan, adding that they will ā€œsanction your employees and associates, and bar you and your families from the United States.ā€ā€

      The tail wags the dog.

      https://zeteo.com/p/exclusive-you-have-been-warned-republican

      1. Idaho-Bob   1 year ago

        I have a better idea. The US remove all funding from the UN and kick them off US soil.

        1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

          Yeah, if it weren’t for the UN there would be no Israel, no Middle East conflict, no genocide in Gaza.

          1. Graf Fuddington von Fuddrick   1 year ago

            Right. Muslims never turn on each other, ever.

            You really are a moron.

        2. EdG   1 year ago

          Yes, let's revoke Resolution 181. You seem very smart.

          1. VinniUSMC   1 year ago

            You don't.

      2. MatthewSlyfield   1 year ago

        The "International Criminal Court" is not part of the US judiciary. The US is not a signatory to the treaty that created it. US politicians have exactly zero obligation to respect the International Criminal Court and/or it's decisions.

        1. Rob Misek   1 year ago

          And everyone will be questioning exactly why that is.

      3. Rob Misek   1 year ago

        ā€œ Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein is speaking out after being arrested at a pro-Palestinian protest at Washington University in St. Louis on Saturday.

        ā€œWe were violently assaulted and arrested with ~100 others peacefully protesting genocide at Washington University in St. Louis,ā€ Stein said on X Monday.

        ā€œMany US police departments – including St. Louis’ – are being trained by Israel to use military occupation-style tactics against their own communities,ā€ā€

    2. SRG2   1 year ago

      For once your monomania leads you to a correct point.

    3. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

      Does that leave us to fret over a country quite possibly in decline? Yes, it does. And there's no sure solution.

      Uh, folks, I think we're forgetting a little something here, the little something that made The West the best and can still do it now if we don't forget:

      "Nothing is written"--Lawrence of Arabia
      https://youtu.be/_EZCG2Ex8Q0?si=XaHBtoF2UmxirH0P

  2. sarcasmic   1 year ago

    In the U.S., the Progressive movement addressed "rising inequality, social tensions over workers' rights, the environmental and social risks of uncontrolled industrialization, and elements of political corruption, including close connections between business interests and political actors."

    The Progressive movement ended the experiment in limited government by removing checks and balances while creating an unaccountable bureaucracy that makes rules with the power of law. Hardly a step in the right direction.

    1. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

      Maybe, instead of forestalling Gilded Age degeneration, their "reforms" accelerated the arrival of the current moment of national decline."

      Sort of. The thing to understand (Rothbard pointed this out in The Progressive Era) is that the Progressive "reforms" were largely sponsored by those Gilded Age robber barons to impose cartelization on the economy. The end result was the displacement of the bourgeois moguls with the current managerial-technocratic elite.

      1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

        Seems like there's always a Baptist and a bootlegger.

      2. charliehall   1 year ago

        Hilarious. The Robber Barons opposed almost all the Progressive reforms.

        1. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

          They mostly didn't, though. And, when you look, the Progressive reformers were overwhelmingly tied to the very robber barons they were "attacking".

        2. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

          Ever notice how many of those Robber Baron families have set up trusts that are funding all manner of "progressive" causes? Listen to any NPR station and you will hear Rockefeller, Carnegie and other big historical names given thanks for their support of NPR.

          After making their fortunes by being hard nosed cut throat businessmen when they got old they did what most grandparents do. They changed their ways because they were old people who wanted to get into heaven. So they funded those kinds of charitable organizations that organized opposition to the up and coming robber barons. I suspect they figured they were being good Christians by supporting those causes.

    2. debo10   1 year ago

      Simple azz solution: close the border and check who comes and make them assimilate first by learning English, make every able body serve two years in the military, pledge allegiance to flag in every school, stand for the National Anthem, get rid of hyphenate Americans, bring back trade schools, encourage marriage and God, and get rid of the progressive agenda! No more pushing lgbtq, trans, and other delusional behaviors! No more playing along! And bring back punishing criminals, and spanking kids! We are not progressing, we are going backwards!

      1. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

        Sure. That's what you want. I suspect those are things you are willing to do and it wouldn't be any imposition on you. Oddly that's exactly what the left wants to do, everything they want to oppose is stuff they don't want to do in the first place.

        How about follow the ideals of actual individual liberty and pull the governments teeth so they stop trying to micromanage we the people?

  3. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

    Given that our media, most of the politically involved and most corporate execs are actively burning down every pillar of polite and civil society, yes we are in decline and I don't see that changing for the better until the rot is excised.

    1. Ersatz   1 year ago

      or until Milei gets US citizenship retroactive to before he was born
      [so that he can be president - in case anyone didn't understand]

      1. Social Justice is neither   1 year ago

        Excised, el fuego, I'll take either removal

  4. IceTrey   1 year ago

    Of course there's a sure and simple solution, prohibit government coercion. The function of government is to defend liberty. Liberty is freedom from coercion. Government defends liberty with the retaliatory use of force. It's when government initiates force that problems arise.

    1. Think It Through   1 year ago

      Defund the police?

      1. charliehall   1 year ago

        Libertarians don't believe in police.

        1. Beezard   1 year ago

          How would you know?

  5. inoyu   1 year ago

    We can all agree on the five principles which make our nation great! Democracy, capitalism, individual rights, private property and rule of law. Or can we?

    1. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

      Democracy? Debatable. And define "rule of law". Other than that, I'm game.

      1. Ersatz   1 year ago

        That one got me as well... how about rather, Republican form of government

        1. mad.casual   1 year ago

          Six logicians finish eating breakfast at a restaurant enter a libertarian forum.
          The Waitress inoyu asks, ā€œDo you all want coffee? Can't we all agree on these few basic tenets of our great nation?ā€
          First logician: ā€œI don’t know.ā€
          Second logician: ā€œI don’t know.ā€
          Third logician: ā€œI don’t know.ā€
          Fourth logician: ā€œI don’t know.ā€
          Fifth logician: ā€œI don’t know.ā€
          Sixth logician: ā€œNo.ā€

  6. Earth-based Human Skeptic   1 year ago

    Most people think and believe what they are told to think and believe. So instead of asking if we are in decline, just figure out what our overlords want us to think.

  7. Longtobefree   1 year ago

    Anyone still wondering is clearly not an expert.

  8. Use the Schwartz   1 year ago

    Create the sickness, sell the cure.

    To how many of Alinsky's rules does this assertion of decline hew?

    1. "Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have."
    2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people."
    3. "Whenever possible go outside the expertise of the enemy."
    4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."
    5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. There is no defense. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage."
    6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."
    7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."
    8. "Keep the pressure on."
    9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."
    10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition."
    11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside; this is based on the principle that every positive has its negative."
    12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."
    13. "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

    "Late-Stage Capitalism"
    "Post-Capitalist"
    "Post-America"

    These are all projection and wish fulfillment terms created by our adversaries. If you accept these terms, then you have accepted their premise. If you debate these concepts you have already lost.

    1. CE   1 year ago

      Rule 2 seems a little too constraining when your experts are Yellen, Buttigieg and Harris though.

      1. Zeb   1 year ago

        Are there people in the world who believe Buttigieg and Harris are experts in anything?

      2. American Mongrel   1 year ago

        They're just the "pretty" faces. Same with Biden.
        Based on Yellen's appearance and charisma, I'm going to guess she does have some level of expertise.

        1. Zeb   1 year ago

          She at least has the credentials.

    2. TheReEncogitationer   1 year ago

      Has it ever occured to anyone that Libertarians--within the bounds of the NAP/NIFF--can follow Saul Allinsky's Rules for Radicals too? And should too?

  9. Rick James   1 year ago

    2020-2023 media: Burn it all down! We're systemicallistically raccisismsist! True founding sixteen nineteen! We have to reframe the history!
    2024: Whycome Murica in decline?

    1. mad.casual   1 year ago

      It’s not happening and it’s good that it's happening.

  10. CE   1 year ago

    Glory to do what? Police the world?

    How about trying what worked once, serving as a beacon of freedom instead?

    1. American Mongrel   1 year ago

      When was that? When we were conquering half the world? And accepting half of Europe as refugees?

      Im not particularly opposed to expanding our domination of our continent while we let Europe duke it out. But once our allies start losing, the publics going to demand we police the world again.

      Then those idiot refugees are going to vote for shit like, well look at what those idiots that came between 1880-1910 voted for between 1910-1940.

  11. Bill Dalasio   1 year ago

    Reading though the linked introduction page to this, I see something pointing to what I think needs to change:

    ā€œThe United States has all the preconditions for a potential agenda of anticipatory renewal. It has tremendous residual strengths and a proven capacity for resilience and renewalā€

    ā€œAnticipatory renewalā€ seems to be a recurring theme over there.
    They could have simply said, ā€œThe United States can fix its problems.ā€

    The problem, as far as I can see, is that America’s dominant managerial-technocratic class, of which RAND is a poster child, has proven itself increasingly incapable of delivering competent performance over the last thirty or so years and has insulated itself from the consequence of its failures, grown contemptuous of the public the consequence of those failures is visited upon, and shown itself to be indifferent to the underlying principles on which they have a reasonable claim to power. RAND’s jargon slush is exactly the sort of drivel I’ve grown accustomed to from the managerial-technocratic elite.

  12. middlefinger   1 year ago

    This is easy, a majority of U.S. states subsidize everything for their populations based on median income. Why on earth would anyone want to be more productive, work harder, gain skills and move up to a free market competitive economy when the housing, energy, water, public schools, food markets they live in is already paid for/subsidized?

    Even migrants are demanding cash equivalent subsidies, let us eat filet migon:
    https://kdvr.com/video/migrants-send-list-of-demands-to-denver-mayor/967464

    Why are there college majors called economics, urban planning and public policy? How’s that working out for productivity and growth? Otherwise known as central planning.

  13. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

    None of this seems at all scholarly or rational to me. Whether or not you think that America - or any other nation in history - is in decline or past the peak depends heavily on what your criteria are and just how objective those criteria are. I, for one, would like for America to stop being a leader in world affairs. Of course I would like the United States to continue to maintain an invincible military defense, but I would also prefer that our "leaders" stop using it to project U.S. power around the globe as part of its massively failed interventionist strategy and exceptionalist "making the world safe for Democracy" bullshit. Bankrupting the Federal government is still a very real possibility despite the "crying wolf" syndrome and I would very much like our "leaders" to stop the deficit spending spree - IMMEDIATELY!

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

      H. L. Mencken

      The common people want Social Security. The common people want Medicare. The common people want deficit spending. If they didn't then the common people would stop voting for politicians who promise to give them free shit that they can't pay for.

      1. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

        This is patently false. Mencken notwithstanding, the assumption that the people would stop voting for politicians who don't give them what they want is probably false. It assumes that the voters are not strongly biased by party affiliation and that they have a choice other than voting for or against their own team; and it assumes that they know whether their candidate did or did not give them what they want as opposed to simply buying their party's soundbites.

        1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          assumption that the people would stop voting for politicians who don’t give them what they want is probably false

          Show me a politician who doesn't give people what they want and I'll show you an unemployed politician.

          It assumes that the voters are not strongly biased by party affiliation...

          You mean the parties that promise free shit?

          ...and that they have a choice other than voting for or against their own team

          Teams that don't promise free shit don't get much support.
          Libertarian Party for example.

          and it assumes that they know whether their candidate did or did not give them what they want

          That is difficult to tell being that Congress offloads their responsibility to make laws to executive alphabet agencies so members can throw up their hands and say it wasn't their fault.

          1. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

            So they vote for parties that promise free stuff whether they actually deliver it or not?

            ā€œThat is difficult to tell being that Congress offloads their responsibility to make laws to executive alphabet agencies so members can throw up their hands and say it wasn’t their fault.ā€

            True, but it supports my position rather than refuting it.

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              So they vote for parties that promise free stuff whether they actually deliver it or not?

              Yup. They sure don't vote for anyone who promises to take away their entitlements.

              1. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

                My brother who went from Republican to Libertarian over the last 30 years voted for Tom Dashal (D) for Congress at least twice. O asked him why he did that since Tom was a hard core Democrat. He said it was because Tom delivered the pork projects to South Dakota.

                People vote for the guys who bring home the bacon. They want term limits on YOUR representatives who are horrible monsters who need to be run out of DC on a rail. But their representatives are statesmen who serve the people with dignity and grace.

                Like you said, the LP is selling liberty and customers aren't buying.

      2. charliehall   1 year ago

        The common people want deficit spending, big time. The election of George W. Bush over Al Gore proved that. We could be paying off the National Debt right now if Gore had won.

        1. Gaear Grimsrud   1 year ago

          We would have all died a fiery death 20 years ago if Gore was in charge.

        2. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

          Hmm... I don't know about that. I think either one would have followed their marching orders and give the UniParty what they wanted.

      3. TJJ2000   1 year ago

        …maybe that’s why this nation has a Supreme Law (written definition)?

  14. SRG2   1 year ago

    Define "decline".

  15. DesigNate   1 year ago

    ā€œIn 2024, the whole MAGA movement assumes America needs to be made great again.ā€

    I think that could be true, depending on how far back you’re looking to as your baseline for American Greatness.

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      According to many the heyday was when people had repetitive motion injuries from manual factory work, cars were death traps, everyone lived in fear of being nuked by commies, people had three tv channels if they were lucky, and woman and darkies were kept in their place.

      1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

        Republicans freed the 'darkies'. Obama killed all TV Channels. Women are so self-entitled they want their ?free? cake and to eat it too. Cars are still death traps and factory work is still dangerous for stupid people.

        What MAGA wants is a LIMITED government instead of one that pretends to fix/make sh*t with 'Guns' of enslavement.

        1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          Stick your partisan bs where the sun don’t shine. This isn't a contest between political parties. It's a contest between liberty and control. Both parties agree that control is better, as long as they are in control. As do those who vote for them. That's why I don't vote. So pretty please, with sugar on top, stick it.

          1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

            ā€œBoth parties agree that control is better, as long as they are in control.ā€
            A De-Regulation Committee is oh-so controlling!!! /s

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMVOzPPtiw

        2. charliehall   1 year ago

          "What MAGA wants is a LIMITED government"

          Hilarious. MAGA wants tariff protection for politically influential businesses, government intervention in the ideology of businesses (Ron De Santis is outspoken about this), restrictions on culture issues (abortion, gays, marijuana), and restrictions on immigration in a period of labor shortages. Trump is as much into limited government as Mussolini was.

          1. TJJ2000   1 year ago

            Your list of *excuses*.
            1) Trump is Pro-Choice (MAGA), Republicans wrote Roe v Wade.
            – That accusation fails.

            2) Gay was never illegal so that accusation fails on any level.

            3) Trump signed the 2018 farm bill, which de-scheduled some cannabis products from the Controlled Substances Act (written by [D]). Trump indicated during his 2016 presidential campaign that he favored leaving the issue of legalization of marijuana to the states
            – That accusation fails.

            Finally. ā€œtariff protection for politically influential businessesā€
            I’m not even sure how you reason giving one specific market a 0% tax (?more logically calling that a tariff/tax protection?) while taxing domestic 50%+. The whole accusation is but projection.
            – That accusation fails.

            What you have is nothing. And even if it was something it would still be close to nothing in scheme of things.

            1. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

              Trump is a populist. He is for whatever polls high. Mind you I still plan to vote for him because he pisses all the right people off and the nightly news is fun again, just like under Clinton when we got to watch serious anchors use "blow job" in a sentance. However I don't delude myself into thinking he's another Thomas Jefferson who will turn the Federal Government to deal only with foreign affairs.

      2. DesigNate   1 year ago

        See, I would have put it about 1996-1998.

        Maybe it’s more a function of when whoever you’re asking ā€œcame of ageā€? Like all that hope and promise for the future as you’re getting ready to graduate from high school is what people are actually searching for?

        1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

          I think you make a good point. Boomers want to go back to the 50s when everything was carefree and wonderful.

          But was it?

          https://www.patreon.com/posts/was-life-easier-102630305

          1. DesigNate   1 year ago

            It’s not necessarily that the 50’s or 60’s were care free, it’s that by and large, 18 y/o them had their whole lives ahead of them. Or so they thought/think.

            1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

              The podcast is interesting. I encourage you to give it a listen. It's also really long. But worth it. In my opinion.

              1. DesigNate   1 year ago

                I will try it out, thanks!

          2. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

            Well, statistically it was a great time, not only for white men. Blacks were catching up. WWII had shown that blacks were just as good as whites and they were catching up quick to the whites. But th 50s were post war times and the US was the only major player in international trade that hadn't been flattened with bombs. So a firm handshake and a sharp suit would equal a good paying job. Experience and education by and large were not necessary.

            We can't recreate the 50s and 60s and all the economic growth unless we get lucky and another European war breaks out and we don't get bombed, which is unlikely

  16. Nobartium   1 year ago

    The number one cause of civilizational collapse is decadence.

    Every. Single. Time.

    1. sarcasmic   1 year ago

      Decadence is a symptom of a society being so rich it forgot the basics.

      1. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

        I think it's not decadence as much as it is excess wealth allows for a lot of luxuries that bite the nation on the ass.

        Our economy has been so strong we coukd afford to have tons of environmental and labor regulations strangling business. We could afford social programs and all that stuff.

        But that economy isn't doing so great now and those luxuries are not as affordable as they were in the 80s and 90s. However the people don't want to give them up and the merry go round is slowing down. The collapse will be when there simply isn't any way to raise the money to pay for the programs.

        That will be when the shit hits the fan. I think it's close. 10 years tops unless we get a big war or an alien race attacks earth.

    2. SRG2   1 year ago

      A convenient definition is where institutions become more important than the objects for which they were established.

      FWIW, supporting your point somewhat, Gibbon said that the point at which the Roman Empire went into decline was when the Praetorian Guard switched to smaller, lighter shields as the old ones were too heavy.

  17. Marshal   1 year ago

    The media wants us in perpetual decline because making people fearful is the pa to to leftist political success. If things are good people can take care of themselves.

    1. SRG2   1 year ago

      because making people fearful is the pa to to leftist political success.

      because making people fearful is the path to to the political success of demagogues, regardless of political wing.

      1. charliehall   1 year ago

        Trump is Exhibit A for that in the US.

      2. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

        Nuff Said. Mic Drop.

  18. M L   1 year ago

    ""History is full of great powers that hit their peak of competitive power and then stagnate and eventually decline"

    Isn't that the definition of "peak" ?

    "There are fewer cases of great powers that have confronted such headwinds and managed to generate a repeated upward trajectory"

    Such headwinds meaning they hit their peak? Not few, none. See the definition of "peak" mentioned above.

    "Arguably, that is precisely the challenge that faces the United States."

    Not looking good then!

    1. MWAocdoc   1 year ago

      Another problem with this whole fake question is historical context. Trying to pretend that you can compare America in the 22nd century to, say, the British Empire in the late 1800s or the Roman Empire around 100 AD is just ... silly!

      1. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

        We are currently in the 21st century. If the planet makes it to the 22nd without something along the lines of the Fallout series of video games happening I will be quite happy.

  19. Richard Bees   1 year ago

    I think greatness is still there, we just have give the federal government the Milei Treatment.
    Eliminate the political class, the lobbyists, and all their minions in the 3-letter bureaucracies.
    Look at Argentina, look at El Salvador, look at Sweden, they are all enacting sweeping changes while we sit here paralyzed.
    The US is currently in a recession, but they won't tell us that, the CPI now only counts gas station sushi and Skittles in their basket of consumables. You think that's an honest assessment?
    When our veterans are treated better than Ukrainians, when our urban under class is treated better than illegal aliens, when schools are run for the benefit of children and their parents, and not the unions, things will turn around, but major changes are needed.
    They want you paralyzed. Don't sit there. It's time to take them all out of the arena. En masse.

  20. charliehall   1 year ago

    "progressives did an enormous amount of damage to the United States by hampering economic liberty and promoting pseudo-scientific racism."

    The racist nature of the Progressive movement has received little attention. It was Progressives who brought the poll tax back to Virginia in 1902. Both Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson espoused racist views that are shocking to modern eyes.

    However, the "economic liberty" had caused great DAMAGE to the US economy. After Andrew Jackson let the charter of the Second Bank of the United States expire, there would be no Central Bank in the US until 1913. The result was chaos. Financial panic after financial panic brought devastation and economic destruction to millions. Economic liberty was destroyed not by the government but by the Robber Barons. People like John D. Rockefeller, Sr. used their monopoly power to destroy competing businesses like the government never has done. Railroad barons were even worse, and they were almost all subsidized by governments (state, federal, or even both). J. P. Morgan was no fan of economic liberty and showed it when he put US Steel together. Enforcement of antitrust laws INCREASED economic liberty.

    Similarly, the huge drop in tariffs that the Wilson Administration implemented in 1913 massively increased economic liberty; politically favored industries didn't have the benefit of the protection racket they had had for over half a century, a racket they had obtained largely through corruption. Laws requiring disclosure of ingredients of foods and drugs expanded economic liberty by providing accurate information.

    And non-economic reforms were a benefit as well. US Senate seats were no longer decided in smoke filled rooms outside of state legislative chambers. Women finally were able to vote. Initiative, referendum, and recall gave citizens some ability to fight the rent-seekers.

    1. Bill Falcon   1 year ago

      Wow..a Keynsian narrative. Can it explain the incredible industrial growth from 1870 to 1900 without a central bank and actual deflation? Central Banks immoral and bad economics and are not needed.

      1. SRG2   1 year ago

        Can it explain the incredible industrial growth from 1870 to 1900 without a central bank and actual deflation

        Technology, independent of economics. Some other idiot might just as well argue that the semiconductor's invention was due to a central bank and high taxes.

        It

      2. MrMxyzptlk   1 year ago

        Ever watch the History Channel show "Tales of the Gun"?

        Every episode about gun makers before 1910 talks about how they got rich making a quality product. There's talk of military sales doing some good but by and large a good product and a catchy slogan got you wealthy beyond ones wildest dreams.

        All the post 1910 weapon maker success stories talk about getting ever important military contracts and how without those sales every day was a dance with bankruptcy. The Thompson Gun was the best example. The inventor got a shipment to the docks to send "over there" just as th war ended. He almost went bankrupt then and there. He was so desperate to move the guns he sold to anyone else with the cash. Since prohibition came along he sold crates of them to mobsters as discount prices just to cover his costs of making them. WWII saved his ass.

        1910 seems to be the point where everything started to go to shit.

    2. TJJ2000   1 year ago

      That's cute. You took the most racist president to ever exist 'Andrew Jackson' and painted everyone else but him as racist. Then proceeded to explain how the Great Depression happened before the 1913 Federal Reserve Act. Nice trick of preaching stupid.

  21. charliehall   1 year ago

    "Britain in the 1840s and 1850s"

    That was about the time Britain moved away from protectionist trade policies. That resulted in it becoming the greatest Europe based Empire since Rome. Most folks in the US want to move in the other direction. Trump loudly, and Biden softly.

  22. Bill Falcon   1 year ago

    I'd start with the entire progressive movement. From 1870 to 1900 the industrial growth in output, rising wages and stable or even slight deflation (supposedly not possible according to the pedo Keynes) brought America to be the land of opportunity for millions of immigrants from Europe. Banking needed some minor reform (allow cross state banking) but the entire central bank cartel and federal income tax along with direct election of senators started the decline. Somehow America liberty survived the degenerate FDR and appeared solved with Ike but resumed the decline with Vietnam and LBJ deficit spending and money printing. Nixon continued with the end of Bretton Woods. The US was lucky to have the petrodollar to offshore the inflation and have a market for deficit spending treasuries. But starting post-cold war the moronic wars and massive vote buying replied on China to buy the debt. This deindustrialized America. Post 911 it has just got worse and worse...idiots at the Fed who are paving the way for American destruction. A surveillance state (thanks to W) turned on Americans and the neocon globalists who care more about avenging some old-world grudge in eastern Europe and protecting greater Israel. AIPAC owns Congress...the only solution is for a intervention by the States, downsizing most of the Federal Govt, stopping all deficit spending, ending the Fed. But I doubt it will occur.

    What do Americans need: Sound Money, Free Markets, Limited Govt, and Peace. Sounds like Ron Paul 2008..

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