Ukraine's Sluggish Counteroffensive Raises Questions About U.S. Support
Should the U.S. continue to bankroll the counteroffensive?

President Joe Biden has claimed that the U.S.'s support for Ukraine "will not waver" amid its conflict with Russia, but new reports about the slow pace of Kyiv's counteroffensive highlight the costs of the fighting.
The New York Times reported last week that newly Western-trained Ukrainian brigades have failed to achieve any "sweeping gains," due to Russian artillery fire. Similarly, CNN has highlighted Ukraine's difficulty in penetrating Russian defenses, with one Ukrainian official calling the density of Russian mines "insane." And Politico reported Tuesday that U.S. officials expect the counteroffensive to last "at least through the fall and possibly into the winter."
These reports follow a July 25 story in The Wall Street Journal claiming that the failure of Ukraine's counteroffensive to achieve its objectives has many Western officials fearing an "open-ended conflict"—and pessimistic that conflict-ending negotiations will occur this year.
"We are not expecting that they will be able to recover all the territory that was lost to Russia, especially if you are considering Crimea and even the territory which was lost in 2014 with Donbas," one European official told the Journal.
"It's going on pretty much according to the way I thought it would," says Lyle Goldstein, a visiting professor at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University. "It always seemed ridiculous that you could have armored elements advancing without air cover, never mind having a deficiency in artillery. And when you add the mines to it, it always struck me as a nearly impossible task."
Yet earlier Western expectations thought Ukrainian valor could overcome this reality. As the Journal reported earlier in July, "Western military officials knew Kyiv didn't have all the training or weapons—from shells to warplanes—that it needed to dislodge Russian forces. But they hoped Ukrainian courage and resourcefulness would carry the day."
"Pentagon and White House officials had low confidence of Ukrainian success, but allowed them (actually, outright facilitated their ability) to go on an offensive that was almost certain to fail," says Daniel L. Davis, a senior fellow at Defense Priorities. Ukrainian soldiers, he adds, "shouldn't have been sacrificed for a mission that was all but militarily unattainable."
For Ukraine's counteroffensive to succeed, the country's armed forces need time to wear down Russian defenses. "At this stage of active hostilities, Ukraine's Defense Forces are fulfilling the number one task—the maximum destruction of manpower, equipment, fuel depots, military vehicles, command posts, artillery and air defense forces of the Russian army," wrote Oleksiy Danilov, secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, a month ago. "We are acting calmly, wisely, step by step."
But Ukraine's plans also require the U.S. and its allies to provide more military aid. "The only real response is an industrial mobilization that will give Ukrainians, and the Russians, a clear message that the Ukrainians will always have plenty of what they need," one Washington-based diplomat told The Wall Street Journal.
Such a policy underestimates the costs and dangers of supplying arms for the offensive, such as the threat of nuclear escalation. Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev stoked these fears on July 30 when he said that Russia would be forced to use nuclear weapons if Ukraine's offensive were to infiltrate Russian territory.
"I've been regularly documenting all kinds of nuclear threats that have traded back and forth," says Goldstein, "and I personally think that we've kind of underplayed those for political reasons."
There is another way the U.S. can help end the war. Instead of continuing to aid the counteroffensive, Washington could facilitate a negotiated end to the conflict by opening back-door diplomatic channels.
"The most prudent course of action now is to stop the offensive, use the rest of their striking force to begin digging in so that they guard against a Russian counterattack this summer," says Davis. "And then seek a ceasefire to end the killing of their men and destruction of their cities, and try to find a negotiated way out."
"The Ukrainians achieved a miracle—they saved the Ukrainian state—so they should pocket that victory and try to come to some kind of ceasefire," adds Goldstein. "I don't really see major political changes coming in either Moscow or Kyiv, so maybe a Korea-like settlement is the best we can hope for."
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Questions just now? We should have had questions before this started in 2014. Damn uniparty.
Trump themes.
Maybe the United States shouldn’t have coordinated the coup on Russias border in 2014 for western multinational greed and Hunter Biden’s undeserved lucrative employment with corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs.
Putting the puppet Zelensky in charge to coordinate Nazi AZOV battalions to terrorize the population in a bloody civil war with US funding and western propaganda.
Just saying.
*holds nose and agrees with Misek*
How do you like never refuting anything I say? Hahaha
You can’t refute utter nonsense.
Maybe you can’t, but I can refute yours.
Nobody can refute the truth I share.
Trying to refute a holocaust denier is like trying to refute a flat-earther, it’s (unlike your head) ultimately pointless.
It’s easy to refute a flat earther.
You haven’t explained why you fuckwits can’t refute anything I say.
The problem is yours. Hahaha
You're not a Flat Earther. You're a Ice Earther. Die Welteislehre was the Cosmology of your brethren.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
*Keeps nose open and yaks up over Herr Misek!*
Stop the foolishness, Misek. You are quite the simpleton, but you don't need to babel on about "the puppet Zelenskyi" and "mutinational greed" bullshit. I know you like that smell and perhaps the smell of Putin, a predatory sewer rat if there ever was one. We need to keep supporting Ukraine. Russia is a crappy country, a malignancy that needs to go into remission. Let the Russian people deal with the final surgery and toss the Putin regime down the toilet.
Putin is kind of the polar opposite of Libertarian. That so many commenters support him shows that their true colors.
You were just cheering the lockdowns you miserable liar.
Communism/National Socialism. He prefers one, but will gladly take the other.
If what I shared was really foolishness, if you had half a brain you could refute any of it.
So which is it? Are you too stupid to understand your foolishness, just too stupid to refute any foolishness or just another dime a dozen lying waste of skin?
They have “special “ websites just for you.
The intense hatred eunuchs, midwits, and globalists have for Putin is amusing
The intense sycophancy, ass-kissing, and submissiveness you have for Putin is even more amusing, especially when you condemn Stalinism in the same breath., since the cult of Stalin is making a comeback under Putin.
WHO CONTROLS THE PAST CONTROLS THE FUTURE WHO CONTROLS THE PRESENT CONTROLS THE PAST”
Orwell, 1984
A well managed lie effectively controls the past regardless of how its applied. It changes what people perceive as facts, reality.
Humans, and every other successful living organism make good future decisions based on their perception of facts, reality. Emotions require no facts.
Between lies and emotion, propaganda coerces people to make decisions in the liars, propagandists, interests, giving them control over the future.
Inevitability this control of the future becomes control over the present. It’s simply the nature of time.
Observe how those who control the present, lie and manipulate laws to ensure that the truth that exposes them is criminalized and doesn’t gain traction with successful organisms needing to recognize it, the rest of us. They are controlling the past.
Shadow governments, deep state organizations, the CIA, bigots, basically all secrets depend on these lies.
Unless you do everything you can to successfully discern truth from lies using correctly applied logic and science you will fall victim to this cycle.
Bigotry is demonstrated by refusing to consider arguments precluding the need to refute them. Censorship goes further by preventing others from the opportunity of doing so.
What incentive do these actors have to choose altruism when they can control the past, present and future?
There is one way to break the cycle. Criminalize lying.
I have stated here many times that if ANYTHING I say is ever refuted with correctly applied logic and science, I will NEVER say it again. I haven’t had to.
Maybe you should go jump in the middle of it, since you deny that the Nazis were genocidal murderers and between both The Azov Battalion and The Wagner Group, you're bound to make a lot of friends.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Friends with Biden AND Zelensky the Jew?
No thanks.
Dontcha wonder whose hands are up their asses making their lips move?
But enough about torture methods/fetishes of your brethren.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Nazi torture?
You’ll have to ask the shmuck Zelensky who’s paying them with your tax dollars, what you’re getting for your money.
The most prudent course of action now is to stop the offensive, use the rest of their striking force to begin digging in so that they guard against a Russian counterattack this summer,” says Davis. “And then seek a ceasefire to end the killing of their men and destruction of their cities, and try to find a negotiated way out.”
Easy for Davis to say that’s the prudent course of action. Ukrainians themselves understand that after ceasefire or frozen conflict comes genocide. This is not a war about territory. It is a war about identity.
Or just provide air superiority.
We can give the Ukrainians the same panimanian air support that the bay of pigs got
Or South Vietnam post-1973.
It worked for Dien Bien phu.
Right?
Note- the only indication of genocide comes from Kiev, which has been trying to ethnically cleanse the Donbass ever since the 2014 coup.
Like all neocons, jfree the totalitarian tumor projects his evil onto the boogeyman.
Jfree needs to get touched up.
How much does Russia pay for astroturfing these days? I'd think that they'd be spending those scarce rubles on bullets, but who knows.
He isnt wrong. There are many stories of support for that pov from shutting down churches Ukraine claims are spy networks, to jailing people who don't support the Ukrainian war, and even stories of Ukrainian linked troops arresting people on the streets.
It isnt propaganda when it is happening. Even the NYT is now running stories of problems with Ukraine linked troops.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/ukraine-cracks-down-on-traitors-helping-russian-troops-1.5881822
Not sure why you think every statement anti Ukraine is Russian propaganda. Ukraine has never been a good actor on the world stage.
Human Rights Watch is a Putin puppet? And Putin has a time machine.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
Typical neocon.
Ukraine experienced a revolution in 2013-2014 called "euromaidan" that was driven by urban europhiles and militant anti-Russian nationalists who wanted to become clients of the EU, which required severing ties with Russia. Pro-Russians, mostly in the south and east, but also conservatives elsewhere, were troubled by the escalating violence of the revolutionaries. That violence led to hundreds dead, including dozens trapped then burned alive in a government office in Odessa and numerous victims on both sides of sniper fire in Kiev.
This all culminated with the elected president, Yanukovych, fleeing Kiev. Maidan forces took the opportunity to unconstitutionally depose Yanukovych and complete their coup.
Crimea, Lugansk, and Donetsk responded by seceding as the contract that defined Ukraine had been broken..
Crimea was relatively safe because of the Russian military presence, but the Donbass was attacked by Kiev's paramilitaries. Rebels were crucified and apartments shelled.
For 8 years, Russia tried to mediate a diplomatic settlement with Kiev that would leave the Donbass as part of Ukraine, but with more autonomy. Kiev, with NATO's help, kept assaulting civilians and breaking terms of multiple agreements while building up their means of killing eastern Ukrainians.
Russia finally, for numerous possible reasons, to intervene directly and accept the rebel territories longstanding requests to become part of Russia.
And through 17 months of the "special military operation" Russia has been notably restrained in their assaults. Why does Kiev still have power? Why do they still have cell service? Russia has been so restrained that many Russians are bitching about Putin being a wimp. Ukraine, on the other hand, has used their limited ballistic capabilities to go after civilian targets almost exclusively.
This. And like the link I posted above from 2014, all this information is available from the time it all happened. You’re not required to remain ignorant.
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m about to start researching Niger, Mali, Burkino Faso, and what Al Qaeda and The Wagner Group have been up to in Africa before that war goes hot, instead of waiting to be told what to believe by our government and their lackeys in the corporate press.
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Only Ukraine has been practicing genocide.
Again, Dumb Madman should be your new handle.
Disprove him if you're so inclined.
Instead of continuing to aid the counteroffensive, Washington could facilitate a negotiated end to the conflict by opening back-door diplomatic channels.
Which is exactly what could have happened a year (or more) ago. How many lives have been lost or ruined in the ensuing time? This was always a negotiable matter. Which makes the failure to negotiate unconscionable.
So basically, Bill, you’re a coward. Perhaps you think your life is not worth losing in a fight against tyranny to preserve your liberty? I can assure you that those of us who value freedom even at the cost of our lives will not be listening to your advice. Fortunately, there are also heroes in Ukraine who are willing to risk their own lives to defend Ukraine against unprovoked Russian aggression and I doubt that they think much of you either. If a foreign power invades the United States, I assure you that we will not be “negotiating” with them. Ukraine is not our fight and I won’t be giving them any worthless advice. I will be willing, however, to help contribute the arms and ammunition they need to defend themselves.
This has to be sarcasm
OH it's not.
Ukraine is not a democracy, zelensky has banned opposition party, critical media, elections, and religions
So he's just a bit ahead of Trudeau and Biden then.
Exactly.
"zelensky has banned opposition party"
But has he arrested them and charged them with treason?
Yeah, liberty wasn't really on the table for Ukrainians. It's one corrupt, fucked up government or another. If they want to fight for their national identity and independence, good for them. Leave me the fuck out of it.
And sometimes you do need to negotiate. Sometimes there are no good options. Ukraine is getting destroyed. Even if they somehow win, they are fucked. Or we are because we'll end up paying to rebuild the country that we just paid for the destruction of. And they will still end up as a fucked up, corrupt state that doesn't give a fuck about its citizens' liberty or self-determination.
I will be willing, however, to help contribute the arms and ammunition they need to defend themselves.
I see you forgot to mention your willingness to lay your own life on the line.
Just because you are only capable of reading at the second grade level doesn't mean I "forgot" anything. I'm not willing to lay my life on the line for the Ukrainians - they will have to fight their own battles. As long as you stay penned up in your nasty, big, dying blue cities you won't have to find out what I'm willing to do to prevent you from taking away MY liberty.
I think we get it. You're willing to give massive handouts to U.S. military contractors to support foreign wars we have no dog in because...reasons?
Because as it's pointed out above, 'freedom' or 'self determination' were never on the table.
Therefore you are either evil or deluded. Take your pick, although I suppose 'both' is always an option.
Just because I ignored your silly opinions about Ukrainian liberty doesn't mean you're right about them. There is no possible doubt that Ukrainian sovereignty was eliminated by the Russian invasion whether you call it liberty or not. Also you are welcome to your silly opinions about the state of society and politics in Ukraine, even if they're silly, but never mind. No, I'm not willing to give massive subsidies to U.S. military contractors, but I'm willing to sell weapons on time payment to Ukraine. I think they're a very solid investment risk.
How about you get your dumb ass to Ukraine?
How about you get your dumb ass to join Putin's Legions?
Do you want the war to continue?
Are the guns and ammunition you are providing to the Ukraine actually paid out by you or by others?
I think we all know the answer.
What's your address, faggot?
1313 mockingbird lane
So basically, Bill, you’re a coward.
If you don't have any constructive point, go immediately to the insults. Good to see you've mastered the midwit playbook.
Perhaps you think your life is not worth losing in a fight against tyranny to preserve your liberty?
First off, Ukraine is hardly any bastion of democracy, let alone liberty. Secondly, which band of gangsters rules over Donbas and Crimea has nothing to do with my liberty. Whatsoever.
I can assure you that those of us who value freedom even at the cost of our lives will not be listening to your advice. Fortunately, there are also heroes in Ukraine who are willing to risk their own lives to defend Ukraine against unprovoked Russian aggression and I doubt that they think much of you either.
And you're signed up and on the front lines? No? For a minute there, I thought you might have something to offer but third rate bluster. And not listening to my advice has gotten the Ukrainians what, exactly? They're in the same predicament they were a year ago, only a bunch of people are dead and a bunch of lives are ruined.
If a foreign power invades the United States, I assure you that we will not be “negotiating” with them.
If a foreign power invades the United States, then the fight is my fight. A fight halfway around the world between two lots of gangsters has nothing to do with me. And picking my pocket to stick our nose in the fight, risking nuclear war, sure as hell isn't defending my hearth and home against a foreign invader.
Ukraine is not our fight and I won’t be giving them any worthless advice.
Funny. It's not our fight? Yeah, that was something some of us were saying from the outset. Then we shouldn't be picking our citizens' pockets and risking nuclear war over someone else's fight.
I will be willing, however, to help contribute the arms and ammunition they need to defend themselves.
And if you want to pass a collection plate around, more power to you. But, that's not really what you have in mind. What you're talking about is having men point guns in your fellow citizens' faces and telling them they have to contribute along with you. This is, somehow or another, "defending freedom".
So he's a coward and you're stunning and brave for "contributing" arms and ammunition while staying out of range?
I'm sorry. When was your life at risk?
Send yourself and your kids over there, hero. Not my kids.
Nice ratio.
I'm sure everyone is impressed with your armchair heroism.
Ukraine Wants to Be European. Russia Wants to Be North Korean
In 2012, 28% of Russians and 23% of Ukrainians viewed Stalin positively
Now, 63% of Russians and 4% of Ukrainians view Stalin positively
There may have been negotiation room in 2012. There may have been notions that Russians and Ukrainians have a mutual shared history that they look on with fondness because they are the same people. But Russia does not negotiate in good faith with any of its neighbors. Ever. That's why all its neighbors either hate Russia or are its puppets.
“But Russia does not negotiate in good faith with any of its neighbors.”
You mean like Angela Merkel admitting that the Minsk agreements were bullshit to buy time for the west to arm Ukraine?
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html
It’s different when clown world does it.
More like Putin telling Bush in 2008 at the NATO-Russia Council - 'Ukraine is not even a state'.
Or maybe the Irish Times interview of Vladislav Surkov (the architect of Putin's Ukraine policy) who describes the Minsk agreement as 'an act that "legitimised the first division of Ukraine". I am proud that I was part of the reconquest.'
Here's the Irish Times interview
Did this survey ask the popularity of the Azov brigade and the guys that support an equally crappy form of Authoritarianism? You can be for negotiation and not be a fan of Putin. Try to see things the other way around. If the East had prevailed in the cold War, how would we feel about a coup in Mexico and talk that they would join the Warsaw Pact?
*when Germany re-unified we PROMISED not to extend NATO Eastward..
I suppose we should keep up the "Good Meddling" of the old days, like project Gladio???
If Putin is crazy enough to start the use of nuclear weapons there's nothing we can do to stop him. "Reason" writers don't seem to get this message! Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. If they were disappointed at their failure to roll right across the country with little opposition it's on them. The United States should sell all the arms Ukraine needs to defend itself and, eventually, kick Russia back out of their country. Appeasement doesn't work, and negotiating with Putin's Russia is a fool's fantasy. The only thing that has even a slim chance of getting Russia to cease its aggression is to convince enough Russians that Putin is an idiot, perhaps by enough of them losing their children in the fight; or perhaps when enough drones destroy enough buildings in downtown Moscow that they see through the lies. The war has proven at least one valuable fact: the dreaded Russian military was more of a paper tiger than a serious threat to the west. Mutual Assured Destruction seems to have worked very well for the last sixty years - I see no reason to stop relying on it now.
I don't think the Russians intend to nuke the wheat fields they want to use to feed their nation.
The invasion may not have been a reasonable response, but there was provocation. I'm not defending Russia's actions here, but they didn't just do it randomly on a lark.
This. I’ll even go a step farther and say from Russia’s pov our government was going to force this conflict eventually, and it made strategic sense to do it when they did rather than wait.
What's your address, faggot?
Depends which bridge his van is parked beneath tonight.
Maybe they went in to stop the 7+ years of shelling experienced in the Donbass?
There will be no end to Ukrainians dying for US. Russian man bad.
100 million dead in WWIII vs acknowledging Hillary as an arrogant fuckup.
100 million dead it is.
At least Raytheon made a bunch of $$.
Fortunately there will also be no end to Russians dying for Russian bad man either. This is all on Putin. When the Russian people lose enough of their children and enough of their buildings in Moscow, perhaps they will put a stop to it.
You don’t know much about Russia do you?
Zelenskyy has the receipts on Biden, there will be no end to our financing it either
I want to make sure I didn’t misunderstand: your opinion is that Ukrainians are dying for the sake of the United States, and not because their country was invaded by Putin?
that is exactly what's happening. this "war" would have been over long ago if it weren't for the united states.
That's a really spicy take, ngl. I don't think the people in Ukraine dying in their own fields would agree that is what they are fighting for.
No doubt, the US gives them the guns to fight the war because it satisfies its own interests, but those men are not fighting because Joe Biden wills it. They're fighting because Russians are trying to take their country away from them. Consider: If ten million Chinese troops poured into America, would you decline to pick up a German-made rifle to shoot them with?
Considering that Germany refused to up their spending of NATO during Trump's Term (when he was specifically calling them out), no.
Then again the whole notion of "someone help the Americans" will never happen. Most of the rest of the world views our citizens as gun nuts who are over-armed. They wouldn't lift a finger.
Hold on. I’ve specifically seen Trump brag that he got all NATO members to pay their fair share. You are saying he wasn’t telling the truth?
(Here’s a cite:
https://nypost.com/2018/07/12/trump-says-nato-allies-agree-to-increase-defense-spending/
)
Are you an idiot Mike?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-16/nato-members-ramp-up-defense-spending-after-pressure-from-trump
Point for Orange Hitler conceded. AFTER being drunkenly suckered into entagling alliances, quibbling about the bar tab is perfectly normal behavior for any gaggle of altruistic suckers. President Washington believed these States ought not to be suckered in the first place. Hitler took over and retasked cowardly, mystical, altruistic neighbors easily. Czechoslovakia was an exeption AND a warning to Balkanizing anarco-secessionists. In a nuclear age, I stand with George, the Second Amendment, and betting on foreign outcomes as a spectator sport.
Trump deranged you
Curious if you think any international actions by NATO or the US effected Russias calculations for Ukraine.
It really doesn't matter what NATO or the US's actions were, because ultimately they didn't involve driving tanks over Kiev. Russia is not a computer that takes inputs and produces outputs which can deflect all responsibility for its actions onto its users. Someone (I will leave you to guess who) inside Russia made the call to invade Ukraine. "Look what you made me do" is the last moral refuge of despots and villains.
So your answer is only other countries can be bad actors. Interesting thought. Not worthwhile. But interesting.
Let me try this. Early on Biden told Ukraine to not negotiate a peace deal with russia. Is there any financial interest for the US or NATO to continue the war? What about political interest?
It is possible and conceivable that Russia is wrong and bad and that Russia wouldn't have done what they are doing without provocation from the US/NATO.
Maybe you make a different calculation, but I think I prefer a world where fewer people are dead, Ukraine's infrastructure and society is less destroyed and the US hasn't sent billions of dollars into a conflict that isn't ours.
International relations are never moral or principled. You get the best deal you can get. The US was lucky to be isolated enough from other major powers for long enough to get big and strong and dominant. Other countries have not been so lucky. In relations between nation states, might makes right. I'm not endorsing this as morally correct, just observing how the world works.
These states were well-advised. What part of "avoid entangling alliances" is difficult to understand?
Do you have any clue whatsoever about reality over there?
Kiev and NATO are attacking regions that seceded from Ukraine and are now, after begging to be for 8 years, part of Russia. The people who live there don't want to be Ukraine. Kiev and NATO want to conquer them.
https://twitter.com/RadioGenova/status/1688629118886137857?t=vBZXRwFfLFHG_yE5pn1ePA&s=19
More terrible images from Ukraine. Kiev, Dnipro River today. Please donate more money.
[Video]
Don’t waste your breath, these clowns are in full “kill the next Hitler “ mode.
There were peace negotiations that the US/england torpedoed befor the war started
What are Ukrainians fighting for?
Because from the available facts, it seems they're fighting to subjugate the Donbass and because they're being kidnapped and sent to the front.
All the fighting is taking place in regions that seceded from Kiev.
So who's the aggressor?
*battle hymn of the republic intensifies*
Wait a minute...Isn't Putin fighting to the last Russian and Belarusian?
I've yet to see why the US has any interest in the matter at all. Seems a local issue, let the locals sort it out.
The U.S. armed Afghan mujahedeen in the 1980's.
This is ecxactly like Afghanistan.
10% to the Big Guy and all
Because letting psychotic bullies have momentum and resources seems like a good idea to you?
The Niemöller poem applies. Don’t tolerate authoritarians just because they’re not targeting you yet.
Are you discussing Ukraine, or the US elections?
Every country, including USA, is run by psychotic bullies.
Where does it stop??
PS - we don't have any treaties with Ukraine.
So, I want to make sure I understand: in your opinion, there is no significant difference in the degree of psychotic bullying in the United States and Putin’s Russia?
This weird take from the true libertarians to support national conflicts by the US is not something I would have called even a decade ago.
Our government invades a lot more countries than Putin, so actually worse.
At least in Russia you can take your despotism pure.
Ah. Having conceded there is no difference in kind, let us now make a big fat hairy deal over differences of degree. Izzit that kind of salvage operation? Mystical Republican looters slither here in droves to expel precisely that assertion. All it means is "hooray for _our_ side" with the corollary: there are only two, never a third alternative. SURELY you can do better than that. Tracerv makes a valid point, but my allegiance is to the Constitution, not the looter infestation. Working abroad soon makes this distinction unmysterious. --Volunteer, Libertarian Defense Caucus
Just to be clear, I wasn’t conceding anything, except rhetorically, “for the sake of argument.”
Ouch! But not every country is nuclear-tipped and ready to defend the tersest-ever Constitution and its Bill of Rights. There's a distinction which, if understood, adds survival value on a planet infested with altruistic looter kleptocracies.
You talking about NATO?
That is Putin’s reasoning, yes.
You're in favor of giving psychotic bullies arms.
They're headquartered in Kiev.
>>earlier Western expectations thought Ukrainian valor could overcome this reality
in Hollywood?
The Ghost of Kiev is gonna pull this out yet!
No one can stop Sam Hyde.
I dont live in ukraine and I dont pay taxes to Ukraine.
They never should have sent a single dime over there much less eleventy billion dollars.
How is it different than arming the Afghan mujahedeen during the 1980's?
Russia is not an existential threat, unlike the USSR
nobody asked me about that either.
Reagan personally called me. I told him I didn't think it was a good idea.
Serious question: how long before we have our first AI president?
Not sure how you get around the Constitutional requirements for that.
Eleventy billion?
The only cost to us re the stuff we’ve sent is the ammo and the Patriot batteries. Those are both resources that have current production runs and therefore there is a real cost to replace what we have supplied to Ukraine. Even then, the cost of increasing production capacity of ammo is on us since that was a flaw in OUR defense strategy because we have spend decades fighting hillbillies not real armies.
Everything else was, basically, obsolete. We transferred an asset to them but none of that is replaced. Likewise, the reason the war hasn't bankrupted Russia a few times already is because most of the weapons they've used is Soviet era stuff. Sunk cost not current cost.
The idea is to trap Russia in a quagmire.
good god
Jfree doesn't believe in God, just totalitarian government.
It's like manna from heaven, right?
How are you ignorant on literally every subject. The US even gave Ukraine money to fund all their pensions.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-us-send-45-billion-more-ukraine-budget-needs-2022-08-08/
The $4.5 billion budgetary grant will fund urgent government needs including payments for pensions, social welfare and healthcare costs, bringing total U.S. fiscal aid for Ukraine to $8.5 billion
This is even ignoring all the blatant corruption in the Ukrainian government paying themselves from the funds.
Is there a single topic you aren't a complete moron about?
Covid really fucked up Jfree’s head. Or did I just not notice it before?
Most likely the latter. Sqrsly's incoherent rants diluted the water quite a bit.
I mean, I'd take all that "obsolete" stuff they gave the Ukrainians...
...I did pay for it, after all.
Just like a modern political pundit defending their puppet by ignoring cost!
There is no cost. The equipment was paid for decades ago when it was produced. Long before Ukraine. It is identical to the military transferring surplus equipment to different police departments. The decision to transfer may be unwise – but it does not cost money. If it sits in a warehouse or is sent to someone - the cost is the same.
You can’t be this stupid.
The US had a large number of rusty floating gunships transferred to England at no great cost. Handing them over to defeat Christian National Socialism was an obvious net benefit. After all, American voters had just freed OUR country from Herbert Hoover's Christian National Socialists!
"Eleventy Billion?"
Are you posting from The Joel Chandler Harris-Uncle Remus Multiverse?
🙂
This will be just like Afghanistan and just like arming bin Ladin. We’ll lose track of the weapons and create terrorists the government can only protect us from with sweeping new powers.
Vlad wants to string this war out until he helps his bestie Fatass Donnie win in 2024 so his little USA mini-me forces Ukraine to surrender.
All we need to know about you is that you posted dark web links to underage porn!
You just cannot stop stepping on rakes in defense of a dementia patient.
Buttplug half a year ago: Russia is disintegrating. They are near impoverishment. Biden laid the hammer on them. I can’t wait for Putin to be shot in the head.
Now you admit Russia can keep going until 2025? Seems the DNC's updated talking points are less ambitious. 🙁
>>stepping on rakes
+1 pie-job for Lord Autumnbottom
it's ok to be wrong when predicting the future. I cant believe I'm defending that guy but nobody knows what the future holds especially in military conflict.
It is when the argument for foreign interventionist is built on destroying the Russian economy as a basis foe the intervention.
Right, so instead of being cautious, Buttplug dove straight into the most pro-Biden position. And like a typical #RussiaGate #Resistance dork, his attitude here isn't even coherent:
"Vlad wants to string this war out until he helps his bestie Fatass Donnie win in 2024 so his little USA mini-me forces Ukraine to surrender."
Apparently POTUS can simply instruct Ukraine to roll over? Wait a minute though! Trump was already POTUS for 4 years. Why didn't Putin invade during that strategically favorable window? Buttplug has never given a satisfactory answer.
Right wing newspaper the NYT even admits Russian economy is growing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/31/world/europe/russia-war-economy.html
How odd that Vlad waited till his “bestie” was out of office before he attacked Ukraine.
The libertarian in me is reminded of George Washington's warning about foreign entanglements, while the human being in me does not want Putin to win.
I’m also conflicted. But, then, why should there be a clear best course of action in a situation that was foisted on us by Putin. There’s no way to approach it that doesn’t require rolling the dice with an uncertain outcome.
The longer it goes on, the more people are going to die. Two countries are losing an entire generation. On the other hand, how many more would die if Putin won? I doubt he's above systematic extermination. So if Ukrainians are going to die, they may as well die fighting. It sucks no matter how you slice it.
Deep thoughts by the true libertarians trying to rationalize why they should support foreign wars.
Shallow thought from the mendacious moron that latches onto one sentence in a chain of thoughts at the exclusion of all else in order to further a narrative for his fellow deluding dunderheads.
So you lied about me being muted. LOL.
What was substantive in your back and forth? It was literally you two attempting to rationalize why you should support the war. I didn't even latch onto a single sentence. Do you not understand that term?
There was nothing worthwhile in your and Mike's post. It is obvious to everyone that you are seeking a means to justify an action that can not be justified as a libertarian. But you got so hounded when you initially expressed open support of the Ukranian War you know you have to find an argument to attempt to fit it into a rational argument. Problem is you're not intelligent enough to do so.
Quick, while he has you unmuted: get the list!
I felt like petting a puppy so I took you off mute for a moment. You can easily figure out what The List is by noting who I never reply to, no matter how hard they stick their nose up my butt. It would also require the intelligence to know that mute has an on/off switch. Jesse doesn’t get it, but jeff says you’re intelligent so you might.
Anyway, who do I never reply to (except for rare moments of charity)?
Obviously you and JesseAz. Who else?
I’ll leave you off mute for an hour. See what you come up with. Make it a guessing game.
Go boy! You can do it!
Have at it, intemperate one. Let's see that list.
Piss off, cunt.
We need the list so we can see where we rate, sarc.
Orrr, if someone wants to know if they’re on The List they just have to reply within the next hour.
If I ignore you then you’re a winner!
Aren't you just a jolly old joy to be around this afternoon.
The true joy will be found in those who reply to this, but never get a response.
Mondays are fortified wine days at Chez Sarcasmic. Whisky Wednesdays are a little mellower.
I posted a list of bout a HUNdred infiltrating ani over on Tumblr at 1929Crash. They wan the world to see reason as a Klan rally, I want visitors to easily mute the loud, overstated hippopotamus farts.
Wtf does this even mean?
This is what a stroke reads like.
Back on mute you go. Though it will be entertaining to see you and the other puppies try to stick your noses up my butt by replying to every comment of mine for the next few days in a vain hope of being recognized.
Oh, and in response to the inevitable "You lied! You never muted me!" I must point out that it is possible to unmute someone once they have been put on mute.
Here's how it works. I put you on mute and ignore you. Then every once in a long while I'll unmute you long enough to read a post for whatever reason, and reply. Then I put you back on mute. At that point everything is back to a pleasant grey.
You see, mute can be turned on and off. On. Off. Like a light switch, or in your case Clapper.
"back on mute" LOL.
Nobody else can fit up there with Jeff and Mike in the way.
Why don't you go back to pontificating about how awesome Biden is supporting the constitution while you ignore censorship, mandates, student loans, foreign wars, weaponization of the DoJ, FACE act, illegal appointments, etc. You were doing so well this morning.
Damn it, not quick enough.
What did you do, unmute Jesse in your stuporous hungover haze this morning while bitter and indignant at the world? Or were you just full of feculence when you claimed to have muted people?
"Back on mute you go."
Ha ha.
"You see, mute can be turned on and off. On. Off. Like a light switch, or in your case Clapper."
Sarckles is such an enormous attention whore that he really imagines it's some sort of horrific punishment to be muted.
A few years ago Ken and Chumby muted him for trolling and being ignored damn near broke him. He was utterly devastated.
Ever since then he threatens with muting like a North Korean dictator does with nukes.
Kim Sarc Un, dictator of the People's Democratic Republic of Little Maine. Nice ring to it.
I'm really not sure why you think that having "deep thoughts" on any topic is a pejorative. Yes, these are hard ethical issues and even "true libertarians" can be conflicted on the implementation and/or outcomes of their default policy preferences.
'Avoid foreign entanglements' is a good and useful rule. It is balanced by 'invest now in the allies you will need in the future'.
Don't mistake JesseAz for an intellectually honest person in search of meaningful conversation.
Don't mistake Sarcasmic for a sober man and a good judge of character.
Also, "Ideas!"
I think the worm at the bottom of the tequila bottle bit him this morning.
I mooted that mystical lewser as soon as the feature was offered. No regrets.
Says the one that's incapable of providing any sort of rebuttal when counterarguments arise.
They weren't deep thoughts, it was sarcasm. They were rationalizations at a very facial layer.
What deep thoughts do you think occurred in that exchange?
re: "What deep thoughts do you think occurred"
Pretty sure I laid that out for you in the second paragraph of my comment. What you saw as facile I saw as succinct. Their comments were certainly deeper than your 'no true libertarian' fallacy.
‘Avoid foreign entanglements’ is a good and useful rule. It is balanced by ‘invest now in the allies you will need in the future’.
Thats substance? It is two bumper stickers. With no mention how to balance. Facial. By definition.
Hey, the longer a war goes, the more people die. Sounds deep to me.
Dude didn't know Niger and Nigeria are different countries, so probably need to take his thoughts on geopolitics with a massive dose of salt.
Good point.
Dude:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9wuVjTrl8lY&pp=ygUcZGVlcCB0aG91Z2h0cyBieSBqYWNrIGhhbmRleQ%3D%3D
That may be true. It also may be true that many more people have died than had to because of US involvement keeping the war going. I tend to think we've made it worse in terms of the toll on lives and destruction of the infrastructure of Ukraine. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that what Putin wanted was to aid the separatists in the east of Ukraine in separating from Ukraine and to keep Ukraine out of NATO. I suspect further death and destruction would be minimized with a treaty allowing eastern Ukraine to determine it's own future and an agreement for Ukraine to stay out of NATO. As it's going now, Ukraine's infrastructure will be completely destroyed, most of the adult male population will be killed or maimed and they still won't defeat Russia outright. There will be some negotiated end to this at some point. Either that or Russia will defeat them utterly or there will be nuclear war. Negotiation and compromise sounds a lot better to me.
“ It sucks no matter how you slice it.”
Word.
"On the other hand, how many more would die if Putin won?"
You mean if Russia actually took over the entire country of Ukraine?
Putin's political enemies and resistance would continue to die. But that was true even before the invasion. Would he engage in systemic genocide on the level of the holocaust? I doubt it.
Lots of people in North Korea are dying. But if we didn't split Korea in two and achieve some level of peace, that entire region would have been Vietnam before Vietnam. Once the Chinese got involved, America had to wrap things up. Macarthur wanted to fight and even considered using nukes. So he was sacked.
Remember that 30 plus nations fought in Korea. Thousands of American kids died there, and we managed to save the southern half. No one is sending troops to Ukraine (a country the size of Texas) - NO ONE. The west should be advising Zelensky to consider giving up territories to end the war. The objective is to end this before someone crosses the line - a coup de tat by the Ukrainian army, someone using chemical weapons, assassination attempts gone wrong, etc. This cannot escalate into something more dire.
It’s honestly a really hard situation. There are so many arguments that can be made for helping/not helping.
At the end of the day, I come down on the side of helping through military aid. I think establishing that invading and conquering sovereign neighboring countries for political and personal goals is simply not going to be allowed. I can’t help feeling this overarching goal is the best of an admittedly complex and crappy situation.
Military aid translates to proxy war where the powers get to try out their new toys. This is the first major conflict since what, Iraq? That was the war where they got to try out stealth, laser-guided munitions and the Abrams tank. Now they're trying out drones, missile defenses and 'smart' weapons. It's a playground for weapons manufacturers and a case study for strategic planners. A meat grinder for the benefit of the military industrial complex.
But is letting Ukraine lose any better?
Oh, it's a field day for the military industrial complex. There's no doubt about that. But just because the military industrial complex drools over this, does that justify letting Ukraine get throttled by Russia? In my mind the answer is no. This really isn't a right/wrong situation, it's much more akin to picking the poison you think best.
This really isn’t a right/wrong situation, it’s much more akin to picking the poison you think best.
That's the definition of a hard decision: No matter what you choose it's going to suck.
Tough choices are still better than sacrifice.
Russia had its empire for 100s of years. It partially fell apart in the 90s. Would it really be the worst thing in the world if it got some parts of it back? I still just think it's bizarre that all of a sudden the internal borders of the USSR which in many cases reflect no historical or traditional national territories, are sacred and must be preserved forever.
How is it different from Texas telling Washington D.C. to get bent?
Sometimes I think 'The States United under the Federal Government in Washington D.C.' might be better off it it split up.
I have no problem with secession from a union like the US or USSR. I also have no problem with part of one country deciding it would be better off being part of another country, which appears to be what has happened in eastern Ukraine and Crimea (which was part of Russian SSR until the 60s if I recall correctly). My point is to question why these borders, created by extremely nasty dictators often for nasty and entirely political reasons absolutely must be preserved now, even when a majority of the people living there would apparently prefer to have them changed. If self determination is good for sub-states of the USSR, then why isn't it good for provinces of those states after the USSR is gone?
That's only part of Russia's rationale for invading, the whole NATO thing is another can of worms. But at least as far as the eastern, mostly ethnic Russian provinces who have been fighting for years to separate from Ukraine, how are they any different from Ukraine telling Moscow to get bent, or Texas doing the same to DC?
Also a reminder: the territory in question voted for succession from Ukraine, and in response Kiev sent actual Nazis to terrorize the Russian speaking citizens there.
Not sure I understand the question. I have no allegiance to lines drawn on a map for the sake of those lines. But I do feel a compunction to assist a sovereign country from being invaded by it's neighbor without reasonable justification.
What constitutes 'reasonable' and who decides if it is true or not?
Like all things policy-wise, it's determined by elected officials and the voters.
But reasonable should be fairly obvious in most contexts, especially if you start from the default position that a non-aggressive sovereign country being invaded is wrong.
Force always decides the issue.
The Ukraine was a part of Soviet Russia for longer than it has been its own country. Ukraine subsists of two different cultures.
You seemingly support Ukraine being its own independent entity away from Russia. Do you also support the Donbas region being its own entity (they voted to join Russia)? If not, what is the designation of how big an entity the US should involve itself in?
There is no consistency in these arguments for support of being in this war.
Yes, I support Ukraine being it's own sovereign nation away from Russia like the people of Ukraine prefer. The Donbas is more difficult in its disputed landscape, as their voting to join Russia was less than legitimate and it has been heavily populated by Russia with Russians to sway the support for Russia. But all things being equal, if Donbas would rather be a part of Russia, I don't see why the US should oppose it.
There is consistency, you just don't want to see it. At the end of the day, an aggressive country trying to reclaim what it lost invaded a sovereign country to take it back by force. There isn't a lack of consistency in simply being against such action.
This is where my inherent anarchism distinguishes me, I guess. There is no such thing as what "the people of Ukraine" prefer. They are all individuals who have their own distinct preferences on how exactly things should be. If enough of them prefer not being part of Russia to make that happen, then that's what they should do. But it's up to the individuals to do it. There's nothing magic about a nation state that gives it any right to exist. People have a right to self-determination, not polities or states.
How was it less than legitimate? I know this is claimed without evidence often. But can you provide details?
You didnt provide consistency. You made an excuse as to why they are different utilizing a bald assertion repeated from the State Department. Have you looked at local papers or talked to local citizens of Donbas?
In other words a rationalization.
How is this argument different from Trumps claims regarding elections btw?
I don’t even understand your question. Are you specifically referring to the Donbas region or the remainder of Ukraine?
What does talking with people in the Donbas have to do with anything? Have you toured and spoken with people in the Donbas?
What is the inconsistency that you are having difficulty with?
And what are you talking about when you bring up Trump's election claims?
"as their voting to join Russia was less than legitimate"
Hahahhaahahahha
"and it has been heavily populated by Russia with Russians to sway the support for Russia."
...but they totes wouldn't secede from Ukraine and then join Russia after Kiev violently, and unconstitutionally, ousted the political leaders easterners had voted for, outlawed the Russian language, and empowered nazi-idolizing paramilitaries to enact a progrom upon Russian speakers?
Yea, I'm sure their referendum was totes "less than legitimate"
Here's what I'm getting at. Pretty much every country, especially in Europe, has borders that pretty much came about as where they landed after the most recent war or treaty. Nothing to do with what the people living there wanted. So on what basis can anyone else presume to have a say in where these borders should be in the future? Is it even reasonable to expect or desire that the post-Soviet borders be preserved?
Half of this conflict at least is Russia and the US/NATO taking sides in a civil war that has been going on in Ukraine for years. That's the biggest reason why I think it's a regional/internal conflict and a fight that we have no legitimate interest in.
I get what you are saying, I just don't fall into the nihilistic or anarchistic (as you described above) philosophy of borders and community creation.
And I guess I wouldn't call it a civil war either. I would grant the Donbas maybe could fit that mold, but Ukraine itself is clearly independent from Russia and has been for so long and in such a way as to remove it from being considered a civil war.
30 years us so long? And half the time of that 30 years they acted as a city state to Russia? We have State Department officials describing in the 2010s about how they would create a coup in Ukraine to bring them into the west. The US and NATO literally pushed a policy to sever Ukraine and Russian interactions. They were open about it.
I’m sorry, how long does a sovereign state have to be in existence before you consider it to be a sovereign state that doesn't deserve to be invaded?
And I don’t excuse the atrocious behavior of the US in Ukraine. Nuland and all of her ilk can jump off a cliff and we would all be better off. But that in no way justifies the invasion by Russia.
Keep chirping about "sovereign state" (while denying the people of Crimea and the Donbass their sovereignty). Maybe toss in "rules based order" or "liberal world order" to really reinforce your point.
Love seeing the mask drop and you coming out as a totalitarian globalist statist.
Good stuff.
Go ahead then. DO it.
What?
You’re free to go help, or donate money on your own.
"Not sure I understand the question. I have no allegiance to lines drawn on a map for the sake of those lines. But I do feel a compunction to assist a sovereign country from being invaded by it’s neighbor without reasonable justification."
So you're just going to ignore everything that's actually happened the last decade and go with State Department talking points...
"But is letting Ukraine lose any better?"
How do you define "loss"? Korea lost the northern half to the communists. Most South Koreans don't miss that region. That country was better off settling for peace than fighting to the death.
This is isn't WW2, when Hitler and Japan conquered vast amounts of land. Many practical considerations prevent Putin from rolling over Kiev or raining down missiles on Zelensky's palace. Both sides are rattling sabers but aren't willing to cross certain lines.
The aid we give to Ukraine should be geared more for defense and humanitarian effort, and the global community should advising Zelensky to seek peace, even if it means giving up territory. The war is a stalemate at this point, but it could escalate into something more serious.
This is a pointless war that has to end. If Ukraine wins, it will be pyrrhic victory since it will sink further into corruption after the war raped most of their land. The last time Russia lost a major war and went through a revolution, Lenin came into power.
No one cares about Ukraine. We obviously don't want war to destroy lives, but that's the just the truth. Are we sending troops to save lives in North Korea and Africa? No. People die in that region in droves. Russia is a frenemy, they gave us intelligence and airspace only a few years ago. Putin is a dictator, but he's not Hitler. We've dealt with dictators before - to our own benefit.
How about people that want to send aid can do so voluntarily and not force the rest of us to?
Not how taxing and spending works.
Assumes US taxpayer dollars are justified in being sent. RMac disagrees.
Then he needs to support and vote for people who will not send the money.
And also argue and debate with people to try to convince them to support similar candidates and policies.
Definitely.
Kinda surprising there’d be so many people at a “libertarian” site needing convincing, but here we are.
The mask dropped for state supremacists like IS
When was this election you speak of?
I come down on the same side in this particular case. I will magnanimously assent to European kleptocracies defending Ukraine with their own money and their own weapons. Since all of them agree that the initiation of force is moral and goood, they could do it in a coordinated surprise attack, say, right this minute, with my best wishes. How's that for liberal altruism?
I'm glad you created a clear separation between "libertarian" and "human" because they do seem to be very much at odds these days.
It was intentional. Thanks for noticing.
That is reasonable enough. Now suppose someone were to offer to bet $20 that Pootin (as opposed to Russia) will win. What odds would you offer or ask for?
Ctrl f “bio-labs”= 0
^^^
The offensive wouldn't be "failing" if the the west had given Ukraine enough support in a timely manner. Western delays and shortchanging on weapons gave the Russians months to dig in and lay a million mines.
What delays? Ukraine use of American weapons has put American defensive capabilities near lows. Biden even admitted this to donors.
I had to look up this "fallacy" you're showing, and there is a term for it.
Escalation of commitment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment
"Escalation of commitment is a human behavior pattern in which an individual or group facing increasingly negative outcomes from a decision, action, or investment nevertheless continue the behavior instead of altering course. The actor maintains behaviors that are irrational, but align with previous decisions and actions."
Bullshit. Short of direct US or NATO intervention, Ukraine cannot logistically prevail.
Same as Angola. Communist mines there are still blowing the legs off children decades later. Ukraine could have armed when it had the chance. Fellow Euro-genosse could be helping them, but it's easier to mooch off of suckers who still have a Second Amendment and batted 1000 at nuclear warfare when actually attacked. You are witnessing the rewards of cowardice and dereliction by Ukraine, Europe and the Russian people.
Ukraine's Sluggish Counteroffensive Raises Questions About U.S. Support
If the offensive were less sluggish, would that eliminate any questions for the libertarians and give a greenlight to full steam ahead, damn the torpedoes in regards to US involvement?
Yeah once again Reason publishes an article that sidesteps the NAP. This is a foreign border dispute. There is no libertarian case for spending our treasure on it.
Just another reminder that Reason is no longer libertarian.
the NAP does not apply quite so well as an argument to ignore the aggression of others. self defense is a pretty universal exception. most people, if they are being honest, would include the defense of others in that as well.
i am not saying we should be involved, just that the NAP makes a terrible argument not to. Russia already violated it.
personally, i think we should be helping them out..... but that there should be a greater expectation of some kind of repayment when the dust settles.
It applies just fine. You’re free to assist Ukraine. I’m being forced to against my wishes.
Raises questions?
you sure about that?
What has our $100 billion in military assistance done? What was it intended to do?
Was anyone under the delusion that absent US assistance, Ukraine would have lasted 6 months as an independent entity? With US aid, they have preserved most of their sovereignty.
The GDP of Ukraine was about $200 billion before all of this - ranking them about equal to the 35th US state. Meanwhile, at almost 44 million people, Ukraine is more populous than the 2 largest US states, both of which have multi-trillion dollar economies.
So exactly what questions are being raised again? Did we set an objective of overthrowing the Russian government? That would certainly raise a few questions. But it seems like the objective was to gum up the works and bleed Russia by spending double their annual defense budget out of our pocket lint to keep a war going that they never should have tried in the first place.
I suppose if you weren't paying attention and you never understood the point in the first place, then yeah, questions might be raised by the failure to drive Russia out of Ukraine. But really, was that ever the primary objective here?
Florida judge wants heart throb Jack Smith to explain "the legal propriety" of using a DC Grand Jury in a Florida matter.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/doj-slapped-judge-trump-documents-case
Looks like the hit job could take a turn south.
DC and New York are possibly the only places in the country they could safely pull this off, maybe San Francisco, maybe Portland.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Then go to libertrans.blogspot dotcom for the real thing.
You're not a libertarian.
Just showing the rulers and authorities he's a real team player.
Chris Christie Meets With Zelenskyy in Ukraine
He brought them a personalized paper of Bon Jovi lyrics. If the front lines just repeat the words over and over Russia will withdraw.
I wonder when DeSantis' team will send him.
They seem determined to get him down to 0.
This analyses fails to ask the question: what is America's objective? If the objective is to end the war right away, then the best thing that America can do, is stop supporting Ukraine financially and militarily, and let them lose the war. The fastest way to end a war is to lose it. If the objective is to save the Ukrainian state, then supplying Ukraine with all of the money and arms that they can to maximize Ukraine's power at the negotiating table is the right path. If the objective is to remove the Russian armed forces from Ukrainian territory, then the right path is for America to go to war with Russia, and destroy the Russian armed forces completely, and let nuclear war happened if that is what is necessary.
We do not moderate or assume any liabilities for comments…
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Liars. I copied and pasted in answer to:
rbike: Questions just now? We should have had questions before this started in 2014. Damn uniparty
What I copied was from three liberal sites, all explaining what is going on from 2014 to the NATO meeting in Madrid. It instantly said moderation so no one could have flagged the comment.
That seems to be the issue. Whenever I try to post three or more links, the comment goes to "moderation". At one or two links, the comment seems to go through. I think it's the algorithm that Reason is using here.
They are still then lying. CNN, Yahoo and the Guardian are hardly bastions of the extreme right. But they will all tell you the same story, it is all the fault of Obama, Hillary Clinton, Victoria Nuland and Joe Biden. Lying is lying. You either moderate (censor) or you don’t.
Reason censors. And this is the worse kind of censorship, instead of outright censorship they use moderation to delay your comment for so long no one will ever read it, but they can say hey, we accepted your comment eventually
I'm as critical of Reason as can be, but they're not actively censoring you. They just have a shit website/programming/whatever.
Some links get sent into the aether for no apparent reason, sometimes 2 links make it through but usually more than one link obliterates the comment.
Just break up your links into separate comments/replies, bro.
It is shocking how many comments on this site approve of the Russian invasion and mass killings they have inflicted upon Ukraine. The US, without sending a single soldier, has helped stop cold the Russian advances, and reimposed the sanctions on Putin for stealing Crimea with military force. Their war of conquest is stopped in its tracks. Ukraine now holds over 90% of Ukrainian territory.
For those who falsely say Ukraine is losing, if that were true, the answer would be to INCREASE support for Ukraine fighting back against terror, not to run in cowardly retreat from a second-class military running out of weapons and conscripts, which now is reduced to bombing hospitals, schools, and apartment buildings instead of military targets.
To the pro-Russia faction, I would ask why you would not hold Russia to the agreements they made with Ukraine and the world that induced Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons with promises that Russian would not invade. Promises made by Putin have turned out to be worthless. Do you really want a world in which international treaties mean nothing? International agreements, like the NATO treaty, have brought an end to warfare in formerly war-torn Europe for the last 74 years.
No one can stop the hunger of a billionaire for more riches, especially if that billionaire has an army. If Putin were to succeed at conquering Ukraine, no reasonable person could possibly believe he would stop there. When Chamberlain failed to oppose Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia, he encouraged Hitler to invade more nations, leading to 73,000,000 dead. For anyone who cares about liberty, they know that it has to be fought for, or abandoned. Since Reason claims to be pro-liberty, it makes no sense to support the conquest of Ukraine.
Only by western nations standing together to halt Putin's military aggression, and impoverish Russia's autocrats, does any European nation have a chance of standing up to Putin. Those who back Putin's war of conquest appear to have no understanding of what tyrants do when they are winning. They kill, kill, and then kill some more.
Pick up on the agreements-peddler!
No one agrees with it, people are pointing out the invasion and war were the results of Democratic meddling. This war would have never happened if the Democrats had just left a sovereign nation make it’s own decision, even if it meant being pro-Russian instead of pro-Western. If you know or understand anything about Ukraine you understand they fit better with Russia. Kiev is considered the first Russian city and the Princes of Kiev ruled over Russia until the rise of Moscow. But Obama and Biden had to interfere in something that was none of their business. Not every nation is required to be in our sphere of influence to have trade with them. We supported a neo-Nazi overthrow of the government. Think about that.
Also read my post about the Madrid meeting of NATO to understand if Reason ever let's it through moderation.
Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored- theguardian.
How NATO's expansion helped drive Putin to invade Ukraine - npr.org
How America’s NATO expansion obsession plays into the Ukraine crisis - vox.
The Growing Fear of a Wider War Between Russia and the West - newyorker
Liberal Illusions Caused the Ukraine Crisis
The greatest tragedy about Russia’s potential invasion is how easily it could have been avoided. - foreignpolicy
It is shocking how many comments on this site [are ignorant of reality and history, are brainwashed by neoconlib globalist lies, and have forfeit any claim to moral credibility by stanning for Ukraine/NATO.]
The US, without sending a single soldier, has helped [corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs kill hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men to enrich themselves and please their masters in Brussels and DC. Trying to conquer and ethnically clease the Donbass is an undertaking that offers no benefit to, or defense of, the Ukrainian people.]
So wait, you’re saying that this “second class military running out of weapons and conscripts” will overrun all or part of Europe if we don’t continue to send billions of US dollars to Ukraine? (And maybe boots on the ground too?)
That’s a real coherent argument, brah. Oh, and fuck off.
If These States were invaded I would not hesitate to go after the enemy with nuclear, chemical and biological weapons until the dictator's own slaves grew the guts to remove him from power with whatever it took to end it. What is happening looks more like the protective tariff looters going after Louisiana racial rape rebs to regain control of the custom-house. Thank the LP conscription is NOT on the table.
You have a way with words, Hank Phillips. The way is retarded, but it’s a way.
Russia has been at war with the West for a decade. They used radioactive Polonium to kill a Russian "traitor" in Vlad's terms in London, creating a dirty bomb scenario in London a part of NATO. Then the Skriptol assassination attempt using the Novachuck nerve agent. Again, a chemical weapon attack on NATO soil. Dead UK innocent civilians. Other assignations in Germany and even some perhaps in the USA. Putin has seen our unwillingness to act as a weakness to defend ourselves. Hence Ukraine. He is a gangster thug.
Now Putin has gone for broke. He wants the pre-1992 borders and spheres of influence from the past. Russia, formerly the economic size of Italy but now more like Chile wants to be treated as a superpower since they have nukes and wants its empire back.
Russia has demonstrated the weakness of an autocracy versus a functioning democracy by getting into this war for no reason other than their leader wanted to go down in history as Vladamir the Great.
Russia has had six months of laying minefields to slow the Ukrainian advance and they have the WWI style massive artillery to blow them up once they slow down to clear the minefields. It's a shit show but at least Ukraine is not fighting it and we are not fighting it out in Poland or the Baltics.
Russian needs to be defeated. Slava Ukraine.
The UK and Germany should have declared war with Russia then.
Langley put the bots out on this one.
China and Russia don't run near the volume of psyops "our" governments in the anglosphere put on us.
Russian tanks are not crossing the Oder on the way to Berlin. We used to have serious pro American foreign policy leaders. They warned against this in the early 90s with this NATO must move east stuff. Trotsky losing to Stalin is irrelevant to America. Personally, I'm more worried about a govt which thinks treating a kid's mental illness with sexual mutilation and sterilization is a bigger problem. Or printing a few billion in dollars a month to fund the grifter DC world is a bigger threat than some tin pot dictator in eastern europe.
The primary reason Ukraine's offensive has been so "sluggish" is the need for more artillery ammunition, more long-range rockets, and sufficient air-power to cover their advance. Without it you have to be very slow, very deliberate, and be wary of where you are putting your infantry and armor. If the West is skeptical, they need to look in the mirror. We have been slow delivering modern fighters, and we want to provide a major wartime offensive with ammunition from our stockpiles while keeping our production at peacetime levels. Mr. Rampe seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. Ergo, to "bankroll" a fast and overwhelming offensive without actually paying the real costs that will make it successful.
The problem with "back door diplomatic contacts" is that it puts State in charge of the process. The Biden/Trump State Department has shown itself to be incapable of any kind of principled stand on much of anything. They're probably the last people we want handling the Ukraine crisis.
This - "Western military officials knew Kyiv didn't have all the training or weapons—from shells to warplanes—that it needed to dislodge Russian forces. But they hoped Ukrainian courage and resourcefulness would carry the day." - is what we're referring to when we mention "the plan"... there is no fucking plan. Hope isn't a plan, to repeat an oft used phrase. Soon, we'll run out of Ukrainians to sacrifice, and then, they'll settle for a diplomatic solution - which will be pretty close to nothing accomplished other than wholesale murder, destruction, and profit for the defense industry. That's the plan. Prove me wrong.
The Great Neolibs/Neocons have for too long sacrificed young mostly Rural American kids and trillions in printed Fed dollars (debt that is destroying the fabric of America in countless ways) for what? Trotsky (their hero by the way) lost to Stalin? The Czar was a bad guy (ok so were many old-world leaders). Some Irish Americans in Boston were stupid enough to send money to the IRA but this almost insane level of "Slava Ukraine" in DC seems to be almost personal for the folks pushing this in the Biden admin and the foreign policy elites. Neolibs and Neocons tended to be pro-Soviet in the cold war but now they are hell bent on destroying Iran and Russia. If China decided to overthrow the pro American, Mexican president and then spent billions in military aid arming Mexico would corn pop just sit there or would American troops be invading Mexico right now. Russia is not the USSR. It is a regional power run by an oligarch (sort of like most of the countries in that area) and it doesn't want a potential threat on its borders. It is right to invade another country no, but welcome to the real world. The US invaded Iraq for no reason.