Sweden Learns That NATO Has Strings Attached
Turkey takes advantage of its new leverage.

Sweden wants to join NATO to protect itself from Russia. Unfortunately, NATO admission will require Sweden—and the U.S.—to make significant concessions to Turkey.
On July 7, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan agreed to "ensure ratification" of Sweden's application to join NATO in Turkey's parliament, according to NATO Chief Jens Stoltenberg.
This deal comes amid additional reports of acquiescence to Turkish demands, including Swedish support for the country's European Union (E.U.) accession process and the U.S. working to provide Turkey with $20 billion worth of F-16s and 79 modernization kits for existing aircraft.
Joining NATO requires each of its 30 member states to vote in favor of Sweden's accession, allowing Turkey to hold the process hostage.
"Turkey has a weak hand to play in all of this, but they've tried to play it to the point where they can extract the most out of this situation," says James Ryan, director of research and Middle East programs at the Foreign Policy Research Institute. "I really think there's an understanding between Biden and Erdogan that it's a quid pro quo, and probably the Swedish accession will go through and the sale will go through shortly thereafter."
Since confirming their intention to join NATO over a year ago, Sweden has had to conform to Turkey's complaints—which include claims that Sweden harbors member of the Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK), issues with anti-Islam protests in Sweden, and the lack of arms exports—to gain its support for joining the alliance.
To accommodate these concerns, Sweden has passed a new stricter anti-terror law, extradited a supporter of the PKK, and reversed a ban on exporting military equipment to Turkey. "Sweden has amended its constitution, changed its laws, significantly expanded its counterterrorism cooperation against the PKK, and resumed arms exports to [Turkey]," said Stoltenberg in a press release.
However, these reforms raise questions about the humanitarian consequences of appealing to Turkey due to the Erdogan regime's poor human rights record and erosion of judicial independence.
"I would be concerned about extradition deals with Turkey universally; in part because the Turkish justice system has been by and large politicized and co-opted by Erdogan," explains Ryan. "The likelihood that anyone who Turkey sees as a terrorist could get a fair trial is very low."
This fact especially applies to Kurds, who have faced discrimination as part of crackdowns on the PKK.
"More broadly, Erdogan has a habit of labeling any Kurds not under his thumb as PKK: Bomb a Yezidi village and kill women and children? No problem, they were PKK operatives. Attack a Kurdish farm in Sinjar? The farmers were PKK," wrote Michael Rubin, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. "It is a Turkish fiction in which neither Sweden nor any other NATO member should indulge, especially as Turkey continues to indulge, harbor, and arm real terrorists."
Turkey has also proved to be an unreliable ally to U.S. interests in the region. In 2020, the U.S. sanctioned Turkey for purchasing S-400 missile systems from Russia after it barred Turkey from receiving F-35s over concerns about the missile systems' intelligence collection. Turkey has used F-16s to bomb hundreds of civilians and over 1,000 American-allied Kurdish fighters in northern Syria.
"While the White House pressures its allies in Congress to allow an F-16 sale to Turkey to move forward, it has done little to stop Turkey's far more destabilizing and destructive behavior toward its neighbors," explained Rubin in a 19FortyFive article. "Not only does Erdogan openly threaten Greece, but Turkey's occupation of Cyprus nears its 50-year mark, Turkish forces and proxies occupy chunks of Syria and Iraq, and Turkey continues an unjustified blockade against Armenia."
Unfortunately for Sweden, protecting itself from one authoritarian military regime will require placating one farther away.
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How about we dump Turkey and let in Sweden?
Unless, of course, the whole "North Atlantic" thing is a scam now - - - - - - - -
Turkey has been in NATO for over 70 years
If they turned Communist, would you still want them in?
They sure aren't a very civilized nation per NATO standards. But half the NATO nations aren't either.
They’ve always been authoritarian.
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NATO should be disbanded.
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At the very least, the US should withdraw
NATO should be disbanded.
^This is the correct answer.^
By that metric the US is about to be ousted from NATO.
Except we pay for every goddamn thing.
I can only get so hard.
https://twitter.com/dom_lucre/status/1681439970832052225?t=TYsnPGS2OTesWuLWSdgDMA&s=19
THREAD Preview: Ukraine Human is the Trafficking Capitol of the World.
On September 23, 2020, the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), revealed that Ukraine is among top-3 suppliers of child porn in the world. Shame," Venediktova said.
According to the official, in 2020 and 2021, the police revealed about 300 facts of child porn dissemination.
"Every week, 5,000 devices upload this kind of porn," the prosecutor added.
She also noted that sexual violence against children is on the rise. According to Venediktova, in the majority of cases, sexual violence is carried out by people from children’s inner circle, and by relatives in 30% of all cases.
Earlier, the Verkovna Rada tightened the punishment for production, dissemination and sale of child porn. Now, these crimes carry between 8 and 12 years in prison.
According to Kyiv Post: Torture of children in basements with cutting off their fingers and scalping them for trying to taste apples from the owner’s garden, killing a five-year-old child for occult reasons in Dnipropetrovsk Oblast; 40 stab wounds for a seven-year-old boy from his father during mushroom hunting in Chernihiv Oblast;
The audacious murder of two girls on Christmas Eve with the aim of getting a phone and a chain, as well as holidays of a six-year-old boy in the capital, who suddenly died from a knife at the hands of his father, with subsequent burning of the boy’s body;
Brutal murder of two children as a result of a domestic conflict in Zakarpattia; the murder and rape of a 7-year-old girl in Kherson Oblast. It all sounds like a horror movie script, but it is our reality.
The sources will be in the next Tweet in this THREAD:
[Links]
First of all, Ukraine is NOT “supplying” anything to anyone. There may be people in the Ukraine that are producing and distributing porn. There are crazy people everywhere who do horrible things, but unless you suspect the entire population of a particular country, you (and the spokesperson above) should not make sweeping generalizations! And secondly, what makes you believe this UNICEF spokesperson in the first place? Officials, especially UN officials, are notorious for pushing emotional buttons, using questionable statistics and factoids to achieve their agenda items.
There may be people in the Ukraine that are producing and distributing porn. There are crazy people everywhere who do horrible things, but unless you suspect the entire population of a particular country, you (and the spokesperson above) should not make sweeping generalizations!
True, however the fact that Ukraine is in the top 3 of CP producing countries while not being in the top 3 in terms of population means that one can conclude that the number of crazy people doing horrible things to children in Ukraine is higher than a lot of other countries. That would seem to point to a rather sick culture that views human life as very cheap. Which should at the very least make one wonder why the hell we're sending them billions of dollars worth of military aid in their war against an enemy they're no better than. Maybe there are no "good guys" there and we should stay the fuck out and reserve our "help" for countries that actually deserve it (of course, there probably are none, so...).
Hmm, this child porn accusation against Ukraine seems a little too convenient for someone looking for a pretense to abandon them to Russian invasion.
And all stories about crimes in a country that is at war with an invading country known for running misinformation operations.
Look, dipshit. Children are never 100 percent safe in any place, and especially any place where they are not taught how to think and navigate their world without blind obedience to authority.
The most horrific images of children I've seen lately from that part of the world were from Mariupol, but the producers of the images were Putin and his Putineers. They sure do love their violence porn, don't they?
And for every bloody image they produce and splay before an outraged world, how much more do they not show?
And if The Roman Catholic Church, The Southern Baptist Convention, The Latter-Day Saints, The Boy Scouts, the Islamic world, and other religions have this problem of child sexual abuse, can it possibly be absent from The Russian Orthodox Church?
Nice try on making Ukraine a scapegoat for a terrible part of the entire human condition, but you fucked up royally!
And Turkey is not on the Atlantic either. What Turkey has to offer is it is on the Russian border, and a great place to launch WW3 from. Well before the nukes start flying anyway.
That's why NATO needs Turkey.
The people who make the alliance, did not think ahead that some countries might leave.
There is no mechanism to leave or be ousted.
Turkey had been supporting Isis and killing Kurds for years.
Their strategic location on Russias border is no longer necessary as NATO has Finland and the Baltic countries.
An airbase could easily be located there to replace Incirlik in Turkey.
Iirc, trading missiles pointed at the Soviet Union in exchange for removing missiles in Cuba is what ended the crisis in the early 1960s. Control of the Bosphorus, gateway to the east, only member with a majority Muslim population. Washington and Brussels like having them on their team.
From a strategic perspective, Turkey is the 2nd most important member of NATO.
However... NATO is an enemy of the American people.
From a strategic perspective, the USA is the 1st most important member of NATO with it ability to provide men, munitions and equipment.
However… NATO is an enemy of the American people.
However… Turkey is no friend of the American people.
Europe consists of about 350 million people in a mostly capitalist system. NATO is one of the things that exists to maintain that. That would seem to be something that is significantly in the interest of the US. I'm guessing your main beef is money and that's a legitimate beef, however, 'enemy of the American people' no, that's an exaggeration.
Turkey controls the Bosporus Strait, the only access point into the Black Sea.
Until we decide to bomb them into oblivion. They don't have nukes.
And hey, the Greeks would be delighted!
I guess we can do that from our airbase. In Ankara.
Yes and Turkey and Russia have had a few squabbles (wars) over that over the centuries. Still for now Turkey remains solidly in control.
how about we just dissolve NATO and let other countries go abroad to find monsters to destroy? I mean Russia can even take Ukraine..Russian tanks are not crossing the Oder anytime soon on their way to Berlin and the Rhine.
This is my first thought. Fuck Turkey.
Would that fall under master basting?
Yep, just kick Turkey out. Easy to justify, probably a good idea, just very difficult to accomplish.
Instead of acceding to Erdogan's demands concerning NATO membership, the United States should drop out of NATO. It's long past time for the United States to unilaterally terminate ALL "entangling alliances" and start pursuing a more rational foreign policy, including termination with extreme prejudice of both American exceptionalism, making the world safe for democracy and the interminable global war on terrorism.
Some founding father, woke to the care, said something about entangling alliances. Good thing he's dead. Good riddance.
All those guys just wanted Hitler to win.
Hitler declared war on the US...and Japan bombed us.
As for avoiding foreign entanglements..if the US didn't enter WWI, Germany probably would have set the conditions for an Amistice and the instability of Europe in the 20's that led to not just Hitler but the entire line of dictatorships that went from Poland to Italy and even the USSR would never have occured.
America was exceptional in it's beginning, but not in it's future. It can go the way of other nations and empires and looks like it's on it's way too.
Let's not forget that Erdogan like ISIS and Iran has his own aspirations to re-create the Islamic Caliphate and like his predecessors has never acknowledged The Armenian Genocide, one of the inspirations for The Holocaust. On this and many other accounts, Erdogan is no fit ally for feeedom-loving people.
Fuck off with that shit, the world needs to take care of itself for a change.
Where did what I say contradict what you said?
If we removed our support from NATO, that would include Turkey, which means less armaments for Erdogan to implement his Caliphate fever dreams.
Maybe you should change your handle to Dumb Madman.
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Agree. The MIC and the ruling class would have otherwise and the US remains as a result.
Whoa. Peace, commerce and friendship with all nations? That's some crazy radical shit right there. No way Reason libertarians are buying into that.
libertarians must NAFO harder!
As if Sweden can't undo or deprioritize all of these things?
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Stockholm needs to sweden the pot before Ankara gives their blessing.
That'd be one heckuva Thanksgiving Turkey!
It could be bazaar.
"I'm sorry that I put windowpane in Mel's quail, and I'm sorry that you ate it.”
Greta Thunberg becomes Erdogan's concubine,
That’s Sweden’s response if Turkey issues a final “no”?
How dare you!
/President Recep Tayyip Erdogan
Nah. Turkey Meatballs sounds nasty.
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If it doesn't have a solution to this problem, Hell no!
So Sweden, Finland and Ukraine will take NATO to Russia's border but libertarians are worried about Turkey? Something something red line. Something something Cuban missile crisis. NATO is a War machine who's only purpose is to spread western hegemony. Antagonizing Russia is a pretty good fucking plan for starting WW3. The problem is that two thirds of the planet's population won't be on "our side" and NATO including the US is in the process of economic suicide through green fantasy and spending into oblivion. But that's cool with libertarians because Turkey Man Bad.
Sweden has a border with Russia?
No I was being a little bit hyperbolic. But it's a short trip through Finland and with Norway it pretty much ties the region to NATO which is obviously going to piss off Russia.
The Russian Baltic fleet must sail by Sweden (and Denmark) if they want into the North Sea them Atlantic.
I imagine then the Russian's military plans don't rely on their Baltic or Black Sea navies, but on nuclear subs out of Murmansk and Vladivostok.
I imagine Russia cares about both locations given there are fleets at each. Sea travel to Kalingrad and Petrograd involve Sweden bordering the route.
I imagine Russia wants to avoid a naval engagement with the US, since much of its fleet has been pierside and undermanned for years, and is crumbling into scale.
Kirovs? They have 1 left. Slavas? They have 2 left. Arliegh Burke Class? 70 and growing.
I think they’d prefer to sail by neutral nations than NATO ones.
My guess is that Kinzhal would be used against opposing naval forces and not a direct fleet-on-fleet engagement. The US is a long distance from Russia (Bearing Straight notwithstanding). Price of production is reportedly $10M. Maybe cheaper if they can find some more used washing machines.
NATO's purpose is to specifically destroy Russia.
Because global totalitarian government isn't feasible if a nationalist has half the world's nukes.
I hate when you make this much sense. It's bad for my ability to ignore it all.
Although I would not support antagonizing Russia, your assumption that pissing off Russia would lead directly to WW3 is erroneous. No one on this planet knows what Putin will do, what he really wants, what his motivation is or what might increase the risk - or decrease the risk - of escalation to a war with Russia, including Putin himself. The notorious paranoia and grandiosity of the Russian culture makes "appeasement" of Russia virtually impossible. It's just as likely that failing to allow Ukraine to join NATO is what convinced Putin that he could roll right over the nation in a week or two and reestablish his empire. What the United States should do is determine what is the right thing to do and then do it and let the chips fall where they may. If Putin is crazy enough to start World War Three, there's nothing we can do to stop him, with or without provocation.
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This kerfuffle is really silly stuff. But regardless of how it ends up, it doesn’t change NATO at all. Why should anyone pay attention to it? It’s like cocktail party conversation at diplomat soirees. Ooh – did you hear how Erdogan talked to Sweden?
When what is seriously transformative about us and NATO is what happened in Vilnius. That communique talks about systemic challenges by China to Euro-Atlantic security. And NATO transforming itself into the global defender of values of democracy, human rights, rule of law, individual liberty, etc. This mission creep is 100% driven by the US. Germany doesn’t even defend itself and we think it is useful re China?? Is that how we fucking negotiate them increasing their NATO contribution? WTF.
These NATO and foreign policy articles are really useless.
"Security" is an illusory concept. It seems highly unlikely to me that any alliance has ever actually achieved security for the participants. What treaty organizations actually do is drag people into wars that might otherwise have been avoided. The United States is perfectly capable of deciding for itself whether to join a war in progress without being "required" to do so by some idiotic treaty. That's what happened in World War Two - Americans did not want to get involved until our foreign "policy" of denying Japan access to fuel sources for its war in China and southeast Asia caused them to attack Pearl Harbor.
The concern raised in the article regarding Sweden's potential loss of strategic autonomy and the potential for NATO to impose its agenda on member states is valid.
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I could do this all day...
Um, you could do "whataboutism" all day? Interesting talent I suppose, but what does it achieve logically concerning the issue at hand?
"I really think there's an understanding between Biden and Erdogan that it's a quid pro quo..."
Joe Biden is the world's leading expert on quid pro quo...