NATO Made a Mistake by Promising Membership to Ukraine
The chance of open U.S.-Russia conflict really would increase if Ukraine were admitted to NATO.

Ukraine has waited for an invitation to NATO for years. Long before 2022's Russian invasion, and even before Moscow claimed Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula in 2014, Kyiv has sought to join the West's premier military alliance. And NATO, for its part, has sought to welcome Ukraine into its ranks—eventually.
In 2008, at a gathering in Bucharest, the alliance promised Ukraine could someday become a NATO member. "NATO welcomes Ukraine's and Georgia's Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO," said a statement from NATO leaders. "We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO," and "we make clear that we support these countries' applications" for the membership process.
This week, as alliance leaders assemble once more, Ukrainian accession to NATO has yet to be realized. And after a year and a half of war on Ukrainian soil, the question of bringing Kyiv into the NATO fold is more pressing than ever: Should NATO make good on its promise? Should Ukraine become a formal NATO ally instead of a unique recipient of members' largesse?
For any who deplore Moscow's aggression and cruelty toward Ukraine, it may seem self-evident that our answer should be "yes." After all, many NATO allies—the United States chief among them—are already sending substantial military and financial support to Kyiv to bolster its defense. Indeed, American involvement is significant enough that we're already risking conflict with Russia. Why not make it official?
Moreover, Ukraine's performance in battle has been remarkable. Where Russian forces were widely expected to sweep through the country and rapidly replace Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy with a pro-Moscow puppet, Ukrainian troops have put up a staunch fight, stopping and even, in some places, reversing Russian gains.
So perhaps, as former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko wrote in Newsweek this week, "it is more than obvious that Ukraine's accession to NATO is necessary" for Ukraine and the allies alike. "A strong and battle-hardened Ukraine, with armed forces that fully meet the requirements of NATO membership, will be a powerful asset to the alliance and offer a guarantee of effective defense against any future Russian aggression."
That's an attractive narrative—Ukraine as an avatar of both might and right whose NATO membership would be beneficial for all involved. But the reality, unfortunately, is more complicated. Admitting Ukraine to NATO risks not just the security of extant alliance members but the prolongation of this very war.
Indeed, the position in which NATO's 2008 promise has put Ukraine these last 15 years is arguably the worst-case scenario, bestowing all the danger that comes from stoking Russian fears of NATO expansion and none of the advantages of the alliance. It's a promise that should never have been made and which, if now fulfilled, is unlikely to work in Ukrainians' favor—or ours.
The risk to Ukraine is easily summarized: An alliance membership hoped to shorten the current war will instead lengthen it by exacerbating Russian fears—whether justified or not—of Western attack.
"Major powers never calmly accept the close approach to their borders of unfriendly powers or alliances," as MIT political scientist Stephen Van Evera wrote in an explainer for Defense Priorities (a think tank where I am a fellow) shortly before the 2022 invasion. In this, "Russia is no exception," he continued. "It will not accept a settlement that leaves open the possibility of Ukraine in NATO or NATO in Ukraine."
As Van Evera went on to detail, neutrality agreements have worked in the past to forestall and settle conflicts like the one in Ukraine today. States react "with special belligerence to threats that appear near their borders," he wrote. "Perhaps such behavior is outdated: In the missile and cyber ages states can inflict great harm from great distance, so strategic depth matters much less." But, rational or not, this is still how states behave.
It's why NATO welcoming Ukraine would likely motivate Russian President Vladimir Putin to redouble his war effort rather than end it. The NATO-Russia border has already lengthened by more than 800 miles this year thanks to Finland's accession. Putin will not simply accept the addition of another 1,400 miles to that span. The notion that Ukrainian accession to NATO could cow Moscow into retreat is, sadly, a fantasy.
Then there's the risk for the U.S. and other NATO allies. Their reluctance to move forward in the membership process is "deep and understandable," as erstwhile neocon Max Boot wrote in The Washington Post, because of the basic fact that Ukraine "is at war with Russia and will be for the foreseeable future. This isn't a stable stalemate like the division of East and West Germany or North and South Korea. This is a dynamic, ongoing conflict that, if NATO were to take in Ukraine, could draw other members into a shooting war with a nuclear-armed Russia."
Such warnings of superpower conflict, and maybe even nuclear war, have become commonplace in the last 18 months. That familiarity should not dull us to their wisdom. The chance of open U.S.-Russia conflict really would increase if Ukraine were admitted to NATO, and the prospect of such a war really is horrible to behold.
Troublingly, the NATO leaders now gathering in Lithuania seem unwilling to revoke the 2008 pledge—nor to rip off the Band-Aid and bring Ukraine into NATO now, ending at least the uncertainty of the current situation. Instead, their draft statement on the subject, as reported by Financial Times, simply renews the 2008 document's delayed welcome: Ukraine can join—eventually.
The decision naturally angered Zelenskyy, who wants NATO admission as soon as possible. And that's a frustration those on the other side of the issue can share. NATO never should have promised membership to Ukraine. Repeating the promise is repeating the mistake.
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"Indeed, the position in which NATO's 2008 promise has put Ukraine these last 15 years is arguably the worst-case scenario, bestowing all the danger that comes from stoking Russian fears of NATO expansion and none of the advantages of the alliance. It's a promise that should never have been made and which, if now fulfilled, is unlikely to work in Ukrainians' favor—or ours."
Just as planned. A stable Ukraine was never in the establishment's interests.
If were going by the nato treaty, the US should attack Ukraine, as they have already attacked 2 nato countries
Iirc, they fired a missile that killed two Polish farmers in Poland.
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That was “Russian terror “ before they had to sweep it under the rug.
Accidents happen, and when they happen in war, they are often deadly.
The defensive alliance is not meant to cover accidents or international incidents. It is meant to cover invasions and war.
It was hysterical watching them try to portray that as a Russian attack though, like how they blamed the Russians for blowing up their own pipeline.
Well, no shit, Bonnie. We've only been discussing that in the comments sections for weeks now. For the administration, it seems like WWIII or bust.
Tapioca Joe is just trying to prevent the AI revolution from Terminator by nuking the world before they can.
The phrase "erstwhile neocon" is a newspeak oxymoron, kind of like lady dick.
End all US government funding to Kiev. Today.
And go back to the Americanized pronunciation, instead of "keev".
"Chicken stuffed with butter."
Chumby spelled it right.
Pronunciation is up to you.
Ki-ev
The only reason it was insistent is that it isn't an Americanized spelling. It's the Russian name for the city.
I can fully support calling a city or country what the occupants wish to call it.
They are so desperate to cover up all the corruption in Ukraine they are willing to start WWIII.
How many bodies will it take to bury all the misdeeds?
I'm not supporting Ukraine's corruption. I am supporting their right not to be conquered and absorbed into a new Soviet Empire.
I don't have to like someone to decide they shouldn't be conquered
Or, more relevantly, that their "absorption" by a corrupt, warmongering state is not in the best interests of the alliance.
Feel free to go volunteer then, sarcasmic. You and Ben of Houston the chickenhawk faggots can go spill your own blood and treasure defending actual, literal, unironic fucking Nazis installed in a color revolution by the CIA and the rest of us can laugh our fucking assess off while we watch your corpses get blown into thousands of tiny little pieces.
So with a choice between mean tweets and no new war or no comprehensible tweets and WWIII, the safe Reason choice was WWIII. You would have to know nothing about Burisma, Ukraine under Obama or NATO over the last 30 years to think otherwise. Congrats Reason you got what you wanted.
Maybe you read a different article?
Or maybe you're a fucking retard, sarcasmic. (Hint: it's that. You're a fucking retard)
But Donnie promised Vlad that Ukraine would be his after they defunded NATO.
^ Down Syndrome version of the Rand Corporation aka the Rammed Corporation.
BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BANGHAZI
“Not al Qaeda;” Obama emphasized, “you said Russia. And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because you know the Cold War has been over for 20 years.” Obama then went on to suggest that Romney also wanted social policies of the 1950s and economic policies of the 1920s.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55009571
HUNTER"S DICK PICS HUNTER"S DICK PICS HUNTER"S DICK PICS
President Obama was caught on an open microphone telling Russian President Dmitry Medvedev he would have more "flexibility" to negotiate on missile defense after the November election.
he would have more “flexibility” to negotiate on missile defense after the November election
No one ever knew what he meant by that. Yet wingnuts hyperventilated for months.
Kind of like the Obama tan suit controversy.
Ummm. Yes. Anyone of even semi intelligence that follows various arms agreements knew what he was talking about.
He was talking about scheduling flexibility, moron.
Working with Russia: Good. Working with Russia: Bad.
Just depends on the day, huh?
Because of an election? If obama is so great why couldn’t his amazing policies be public and consistent. Literally begging Russia not to act up before he can concede ground to them in an arms discussion. Lol.
"No one ever knew what he meant by that.
He was talking about scheduling flexibility, moron."
Yeah, it's a complete fucking mystery.
Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him [Putin] to give me space. This is my last election, after my election I have more flexibility.”
See, this is how we know you're a complete shill, Pluggo. The statement is as clear as day, and the election implication is undeniable, but within two posts you tried to say it was first a riddle within an enigma, and then just a matter of finding some free time.
It was obvious and pathetic. Particularly the scheduling excuse as the election was still nine months away.
“On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him [Putin] to give me space. This is my last election, after my election I have more flexibility.”
Then he cracked down on Putin with heavy sanctions.
The new missile defense systems had made Vlad nervous.
Now run along and play with the other children.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/30/obama-nuclear-security-summit-iran-japan-south-africa/
But not everything is relative; we should not slip into collective amnesia over the Obama administration’s weak and underwhelming response to Russian aggression. Throughout his presidency, Obama consistently underestimated the challenge posed by Putin’s regime. His foreign policy was firmly grounded in the premise that Russia was not a national security threat to the United States.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/dont-rehabilitate-obama-on-russia/
And those are leftist groups. Lol.
Get your Neocon groove on, Jesse.
At least Obama didn't nuzzle Vlad's nuts like Donnie did.
No, Putin only took Crimea and had insurgencies going on in places like Donbass while Obama was President. Somehow, that all quieted down when Trump was President. You do the math, retard.
Brookings said he did dumdum. Are you that dumb you call Brookings institute neocon?
ITL, Sarah Palin’s Bushpig has a fever and the only cure is more neocon. SPB’s gotta have more neocon.
“Get your Neocon groove on, Jesse.”
Oh fuck off. The only warmongering neocon here is you. You of all people accusing anyone else is retarded.
"At least Obama didn’t nuzzle Vlad’s nuts like Donnie did."
You mean the fake shit that you clowns dreamed up so you could gaslight the nation? The Mueller and Durham reports say you were lying.
It's crazy how Vlad didn't attack Ukraine while his suuka, Trump, was President, but rather waited until the oh so strong and mighty and tough Tapioca Joe was in office instead.
“Then he cracked down on Putin with heavy sanctions.”
OUCH!!
“On 28 April, the United States imposed a ban on business transactions within its territory on seven Russian officials, including Igor Sechin, executive chairman of the Russian state oil company Rosneft, and 17 Russian companies. In response to the escalating War in Donbass, on 17 July 2014 the United States extended its transactions ban to two major Russian energy firms, Rosneft and Novatek, and to two banks, Gazprombank and Vnesheconombank.
Wow Shrike! You were right. That’s superheavy… fucking hardcore.
“The new missile defense systems had made Vlad nervous.”
THE NEW DEFENSE SYSTEM MADE VLAD NERVOUS!!!
Wow, but somehow we’re supposed to magically believe that you’re not a paid shill.
I presume the notion is that we'd just shine it off if Mexico allowed China to install some missile systems in Mexico, Cuba, and Jamaica. Maybe add in Haiti just for good measure.
https://twitter.com/AmbJohnBolton/status/1676661036730949634?t=gQ2sVB2ya8UgMyIve3XBjA&s=19
China's potential military training facility in Cuba is a red-flag threat to America. It could camouflage offensive weapons along with many other risks we simply cannot tolerate. It's a significant escalation in China's hegemonic aspirations, equal to or graver than the 1960's Soviet presence. One thing is certain: we should not stand idly by.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1678818128514412563?t=4ZpZJFX-dTHutHlffUc2uw&s=19
NEW: President Biden is not attending tonight’s dinner with NATO leaders. Asked why he is skipping it, a US official said the president has had four full days of official business and is preparing for a big speech tomorrow in addition to another day at the summit.
It's been a busy week, and the poor old fella has to turn in early, as octogenarians often do.
Sundown Syndrome.
They are not even convincing themselves that he is healthy enough to hold office.
Poor ole Joe! The Secret Service stole his stash for the trip so now he doesn't have enough "spark" to attend the main dinner meeting.
He shouldn't have left it just lying out there.
I poke fun at Reason's habit of framing most of its Ukraine articles around the same old "our sugar daddy needs cheap imported labor" routine. So I gotta give credit when you present the noninterventionist foreign policy angle. 🙂
#AWelcomeChange
Well, she could have advocated for a withdrawal from military alliances with Europe altogether. Or would that have have playing a Trump card?
In this case I see the value in avoiding an extreme position that would allow your opponents to portray you as a crank.
#USAOutOfNATODoesntPollWell
And hasn't polled well for the 25+ years I've been suggesting it. Alas.
We sure about that?
Chuck - ahem, no puns.
Wait a minute! If Ukraine is already at war, isn't that war part of the baseline that NATO would ignore if Ukraine were admitted?
No, they really want war.
Ukraine has always been at war.
The headline I saw somewhere the other day, about how "the world would suffer" if Ukraine isn't liberated really baffled me. The world survived Ukraine being a Soviet pegboy for fifty years, I'm pretty sure we'd survive them being dommed by the Russkies again just fine.
The world has survived millennia of war and tyranny in all flavors on every corner of the Planet, but I, for one, would like a little break and I'm sure many Ukrainians and Russians under the thumb of Putin would concur.
And we Americans want to stay out of it altogether. Is that too much to ask?
How about the ethnic Russians in Ukraine that the CIA-installed actual, unironic, no-shit Nazi government has been ethnically cleansing, bootlicking Nazi faggot? Do they get a say in your neocon "bombing for peace" plan or only the sanctified and holy Ukrainian Nazis you support, chickenhawk faggot?
In that case can't they just make a FYTW war? Why do people always need even an obviously lame excuse these days? Why doesn't the head of a country say to the people of another, "We're gonna moida ya, har, har, har!"
NATO won't admit Ukraine until the war is over. Ignoring Article 5 is not really an option.
That's reassuring, sarcasmic. After the first 150 million Americans have died from radiation poisoning I'm sure the political willingness to suck more Ukrainian Nazi cock will shoot up.
NATO Made a Mistake by Promising Membership to Ukraine
Quit trying to create a path for the US to go to war with Russia, you evil sons of whores.
You mean, like admitting Finland? Oops.
"More provocations are fine since the last provocations only led to the invasion of Ukraine." Goddamn sarcasmic, you're even stupider when you're sober.
Nothing on the Great White House Dimebag of Cocaine Controversy today?
What about the Ignored Grandchild Controversy?
Something has to replace the Hunter Biden Fake Bribery Scandal.
LINES WERE SNORTED!
It takes a pretty pathetic person to have to defend Joe Biden every day. I know pedophiles need to stick together, but getting pretty bad shrike.
I laugh at your silly fake scandals.
I will never let you forget the HUNTER BIDEN FAKE BRIBERY SCANDAL!
Which facts are fake?
The ones that change.
Pluggo's "facts". They're always fake because the retard can't be bothered to read past the headline.
You're a #RussiaGate conspiracy theorist who still can't admit Hillary lost fair & square in 2016.
Your inability to accept that loss made you an easy mark for the Keith Olbermanns and Rachel Maddows of the world. Their constant repetition of "bombshell tipping point walls closing in beginning of the end" convinced you in May 2021 Trump would go to prison "soon." Oops!
You're in no position to mock anyone who buys into partisan fantasy. In fact "Biden is a piece of shit who denies the existence of his own granddaughter" isn't even fantasy. It's a reasonable conclusion based on a known fact.
I never denied that Hil-Dog lost in a legitimate 2016 election. Don't lie now! You were the one here that didn't need to lie.
What I do say is that the Trump Campaign from Manafort to Flynn met with and coordinated with the Kremlin to defeat Hil-Dog. I can name specific dates and actions but you Republicans are too busy yelling HOAX! trying to drown out facts.
"What I do say is that the Trump Campaign from Manafort to Flynn met with and coordinated with the Kremlin to defeat Hil-Dog."
Yeah, no.
I mean even your 30 million dollar investigation says you're wrong.
Bullshit. Mueller found extensive Trump-Kremlin communications.
Mueller finds no conspiracy, but extensive Trump-Russia contacts
.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Special Counsel Robert Mueller may not have found evidence of a criminal conspiracy between Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign and Russia, but his report details extensive contacts between the campaign and Russian operatives who sought to influence the election.
.
Mueller said in his report released on Thursday that he found “numerous links” and that the Trump campaign “expected it would benefit” from Russia’s effort to tilt the ballot in Trump’s favour.
.
Ultimately, Mueller determined the various contacts either didn’t amount to criminal behaviour or would be difficult to prove in court, even if people in Trump’s orbit sometimes displayed a willingness to accept Russian help, the report showed.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-russia-collusion/mueller-finds-no-conspiracy-but-extensive-trump-russia-contacts-idUKKCN1RU2MF
Now STFU, you're wrong again.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/24/breaking-news-barr-to-release-summary-of-mueller-report-1233771
Talking to a Russian is not collusion woth russia you dumb mother fucker. Hillary talked to Russia. Obama talked to Russia. Hillary even paid a British agent to pay Russians for Intel dumbfuck.
It is amazing watching your ignorance.
Your even cited portion of your own link says no collusion which is a specific legal term dumdum.
Where have I used the word "collusion", numbnuts?
You post about it all the time while promoting the highly debunked Russiagate hoax, numbnut.
What I do say is that the Trump Campaign from Manafort to Flynn met with and coordinated with the Kremlin to defeat Hil-Dog.
What does coordination mean to you?
They worked together. They had meetings and the same goal - defeat Hillary.
There is no dispute about this. The June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower is a proven fact.
The Trumps admitted it. Then they lied and said it was about "adopting children".
And again you are lying here. You are literally arguing collusion but are too dumb to realize it. MUELLER testified to congress there was no collusion or coordination. 1 meeting is not collusion or coordination. The server pings were a lie. The polling data was not collusion.
So we are back to you lying and being ignorant.
Do y'all truly have nothing better to do with your lives than interact with this shitheel?
I mean, I admit, there'd be a fuck of a lot fewer comments around here if everyone just muted the four stooges, but jeez. I did it for my own sanity. I don't see how y'all put up with it, day in and day out.
I hope his Act Blue boss sees how badly he is failing and gets fired.
Perhaps the child groping Biden (D) has switched from sniffing kids to snorting coke. Maybe you could give that a try. Does Soros regularly drug test you?
I have hit the yayo many many times, pal.
But then I hit middle age. I don't even like to drink anymore.
Young
Adolescent
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Young
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Youth
Only
You ever find it strange just how much crap you cover for in order to play tribal politics?
No it is really scummy on Joe for ignoring his grandchild. Really scummy.
Not as scummy as raw-dogging a porn whore while your wife was pregnant though.
Any scummier than posting CP to Reason, getting your old moniker banned, and then lying about the ban?
Or anything dumber than clicking on it--and then admitting it in an open forum?
Yeah, what kind of a moron would click on a hyperlink on a political blog and not expect it to redirect to dark web links to hardcore child pornography, sarcasmic? Great point.
While it would be a mistake to admit Ukraine during this period of active conflict, I hope that there will be peace for the Ukrainian people someday. Achieving peace will likely only come when Ukraine has some assurance that Russian will not invade once again. That assurance will likely mean that Ukraine will have to be admitted to NATO. NATO membership is the only thing that will likely stop future Russian invasions.
I think Russia proved to Ukraine, and the rest of Europe, that being in NATO is very helpful in preventing Russian aggression.
Perhaps Kiev should have adhered to the Minsk Agreements that she signed and perhaps not engaged in a seven plus year campaign of genocide in Donbas. Maybe NATO should have honored its word to not expand east beyond the DDR. Additional US deficit spending to get Americans closer to a nuclear exchange with the biggest kid on the block over something halfway around the planet seems naive.
That and we're out of ammo.
You have managed to repeat almost every Russky justification for war--поздравления!
You have manged to repeat quite literally every single CIA justification for war, you drunken chickenhawk faggot.
Peace is accepting Russia is a regional power with a history of being invaded from the West. It will not accept a country as large as the Ukraine being a possible staging ground for invasion any more than the US would accept Mexico joining a Chinese military alliance. Accept real politics. Ukraine will be broken up with the Russian ethnic areas joining Russia. Start negotiations now, fix the post fall of the USSR Ukraine/Russia boundary issue. But the US cabal running our foriegn policy would have to admit defeat..they would rather nuke Moscow and start a nuclear exchange than to admit defeat.
Uh, yeah, Russia was invaded from the West...by the French under Napoleon and by Germany under the Nazis (stoked by Stalin via The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact,) along with some of these, though Russia did more than it's share of invasion too:
List of Wars Involving Russia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia
All of this is "real politics." But what has this to do with what Putin is doing with Russia and Ukraine today?
Ukraine could not conquer Russia even if it wanted to, but Putin is going far beyond Donbass and the Ukrainian areas with ethnic Russians. Until Putin stops his invasion, peace is not possible.
I dunno, a freaking "private army" nearly conquered Russia a few weeks ago...
Putin has single-handedly expanded NATO to include Finland and (presumably) Sweden. Well done that man!
Lol, not even your CIA bros are still shilling that sad ass talking point, sarcasmic. Check with shreek and Episiarch/Bo Cara Esq. (dba Mike "White Mikey" Laursen), they seem to get the ActBlue talking points memos sooner than you do. Or maybe they're just literate and/or sober enough to actually comprehend them.
https://twitter.com/Navsteva/status/1678745998477123584?t=uZmgNnjYFXgPnVuuGoOClQ&s=19
Putin on Sweden and Finland join NATO from June 29 2022: “On the other hand, as regards Sweden and Finland. We do not have such problems with Sweden and Finland, which, unfortunately, we have with Ukraine. We have no territorial issues, no disputes, we have nothing to worry about in terms of Finland’s or Sweden’s membership in NATO. Well, they want—please.
“Only they should clearly and clearly understand that before there were no threats to them, now if we deploy military contingents and infrastructure there, we will have to respond in a mirror manner and create the same threats for the territories from which threats are created to us.
“And the thesis that we fought against NATO expansion at the expense of Ukraine, and now we got it by accepting Sweden and Finland, does not have any serious grounds, because for us the membership of Finland and Sweden in NATO is not at all what Ukraine’s membership in NATO. These are completely different things. They understand this very well, they simply throw this thesis into public opinion in order to show: aha, here Russia did not want it, but now it has received it twice...
“Ukraine is completely different. From Ukraine they began to make anti-Russia, a springboard in order to try to somehow shake Russia itself, they began to fight Russian culture, the Russian language, they began to persecute people who feel they are part of the Russian world. There is nothing similar in Finland and Sweden, this is a completely different situation.”
Nice to know that Putin has no problems with Finland and Sweden, not that I believe him in the slightest bit. I sure it irritates him greatly but there is nothing he can do. He does have a better rationalization for Ukraine, but again I don't believe him.
but again I don’t believe him
I do. I too have a problem with Ukraine joining NATO and not being anywhere near the Atlantic Ocean. If they do admit Ukraine they should have to rename it something honest, like FYRO. The Fuck You Russia Organization.
Fine with me. Russia is NATO's only reason to exist. Not "Russia" itself, of course, but the people in charge of it historically and currently.
Perhaps one day there will be no need for NATO? But Russia has to stop invading its neighbors, first.
The Soviet Union was the only reason for NATO to exist and the Soviet Union dissolved as a political entity 35 years ago, sarcasmic. If you want to get your guts blown out with the rest of the 65 year old draftees that the Nazi CIA-installed puppet Zelensky sent to the front lines I'll pay your ticket. Until then keep your chickenhawk faggot cock holster shut.
Team America!, er, NATO! Fuck yeah!
What a complete fucking moron this author is. Ukraine was – at best – decades away from any NATO membership with most countries in NATO happy indeed eager to veto that – Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Benelux and even UK. It didn’t matter one whit what Eastern Europe and the US permawar empire builder types wanted. The decision was going to be vetoed – in a few more decades. Everyone knew that including Putin who only needed to keep the countries above trading resources.
It was two other things that precipitated this. Ukraine’s desire (by both its main ethnic groups) to face West culturally and economically via the EU – and the Kremlin’s (not Russia’s) centuries old inability to be friendly with its neighbors so they can become allies on something other than subjugated/colonized terms. Neither of those have anything to do with the US even if we should have forced our establishment types to go beyond Cold War mindset shit a long fucking time ago.
Stop making this about the US. Just fucking stop it. It is Putin himself who restored the notion that Russia is a threat to Europe. Whether Ukraine and Europe find common ground on security/defense issues should be up to them. With as little interference or input from the US as is humanly possible. Their ability to do that – on their own – is precisely what can make NATO a European focused alliance. Which is what can THEN allow the US to step back and let NATO stand up without the US perpetually propping it up and then perpetually whining about propping it up.
Just fucking stop with your stupidity.
Agree with your “US hands off” approach to Europe. Am tired of paying for it and am not interested in escalation that could spill into America. We learned with previous proxy wars that there can be blowback. A decade now, some jilted Bandera type may seek vengeance in the US.
Check out Populist McMisesCaucus over here.
It is Putin himself who restored the notion that Russia is a threat to Europe.
Even if he did, I would argue that Russia is not a real threat. Putin requires an enemy to justify collecting all that money for his military spending and being at war with EastAsia isn't an option anymore. His fellow travelers in the West are just as eager as Putin to enjoy looting under the unaccountable policies of wartime economies.
Meanwhile, China looks on and says "What, me worry?"
Russia is only not a threat because of what Ukrainians and the West did in response to his invasion. Had he taken Kiev and installed his poodle, Europe would look very different right now. As would the world – minus one nation. He was a couple days from that happening.
I think Germany and Italy are still complacent as fuck – even with a now diminished Russia. Their militaries still don’t even exist. Not even on paper. And their jawjaw is bullshit too. Behind the scenes we should be reading those two the riot act. All our forces there (2/3 of our total in Europe) should be gone by end of 2024 with no discussion just quiet notice. Article 5 for them is merely pro forma. They’ve never been wartime allies and they are no longer occupied and dependent. But behind the scenes.
More chicken little analysis.
You really are just a complete fucking retard about everything that matters, aren’t you?
Europe would look very different right now.
How? Seriously, fucking how?
How in God's name would Europe actually be significantly impacted by Ukraine being under Russia's thumb again?
Here was the 'victory editorial' in the official Russian news agency that was published and then quickly pulled exactly (to the minute) two days after the invasion began. But nothing ever disappears from the Internet.
It pretty clearly describes (in Russian so find your own translator) why the war was inevitable from 1992 on, what they achieved with that victory, what their bigger goal was, and how they were gonna split NATO in order to achieve it.
So they had a “Mission Accomplished “ moment?
Much more than that. That article explains the mission itself to the Russians and the world. Before that - and/or for those who never read it - all that exists is the propaganda reason.
Failure to read it is like failing to understand 9/11 because you didn't read binladen's fatwas of 1996 and 1998.
Oh. And not mentioned in this article (obviously) but available with other analysis of this propaganda online was the immediate reason why the article was pulled. The Russians and Kadyrovites failed to fully capture Hostomel Airport - and Ukraine totally obliterated the assault on Vasilkiv Airport - which were the airborne assault targets on Kyiv.
Youre aware of what pre war propaganda is right?
Medvedev’s TG channel provides for good fun.
Bruh, no cap.
>>Moscow's aggression and cruelty toward Ukraine
I've heard Ukraine (is not weak!) is the aggressor and I'm more the underdog type.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Unless you have an article on economical ways to aid freedom-fighters abroad, no!
No shit. When the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba, we went to the brink of World War III. And the Soviets never were stupid enough to make Cuba a member in the Warsaw Pact. But I guess, because we're the good guys, we're entitled to do stuff that would be irresponsibly provocative if the Russkies tried it.
American Exceptionalism is what it is called. Normal rules don't apply to the USA.
It was prominent during the Bush/Cheney regime.
Merican Ceptionalism - Bush Cheney style!
United Nations WMD inspector Hans Blix "there are no WMD in Iraq".
Bush-Cheney - WE GONNA GO TO IRAQ AND GIT THAT GODDAMN OIL BOYS!
Biden and Hillary went all in on that. Four despicable politicians that libertarians despise.
Joe and Hil stupidly voted for the AUMF.
They were NOT in on the fabrication of evidence to go to war - the aluminum tubes, the yellowcake, the nuclear floating mines, and all the other shit the Bushpigs made up.
They were either in on it or too inept to do the job they campaigned for and were elected to do. They both helped to oversee the occupations while serving in the Obama admin. Biden even extended the stay in Afghanistan managing to drone strike murder an aid worker and seven children. Neocon scum.
So, you think Putin was lying?
"We do not have such problems with Sweden and Finland, which, unfortunately, we have with Ukraine. We have no territorial issues, no disputes, we have nothing to worry about in terms of Finland’s or Sweden’s membership in NATO."
No, he just actually understands that the topic under discussion is Ukrainian membership to NATO, sarcasmic. It helps sometimes to at least check the title of the article you're commenting on before you use 2 week old ActBlue talking points that aren't even tangentially related to the topic.
Fuck NATO
Why am I beholden to NATOs demands and obligations? Get us out of it, for the love of god.
Wasn't that all part of the back door deals between Hunter Biden, his dad, and Ukraine? Why is this a surprise?
No. Turns out the "whistleblower" was arrested yesterday. That HUNTER BIDEN FAKE SCANDAL! was all fabricated.
Stalin and Goebbels would be proud of you, son.
Nah. Even they would see him for the useless crapsack he is.
But they’d be glad for his assistance.
Until it was time to put him up against a wall.
Trotsky...it is always about Trotsky and what could have been to the globalist neocon/neolibs who run our foreign policy. You don't have George Keenans or even Henry Kissenger but Nulands, Kaganovich, Perle, Burns, Blinkin and the rest...
And Hunter, Joe and Ukraine did what to get Russia to invade?
30 years of neocon/neolib lunacy which old corn pop was a part of. We won the cold war, time to come home. Gorbachev dismantled the Warsaw Pact so why wasn't NATO shut down? Why did the globalists running our foreign policy push it eastward? What is the point anymore of NATO? Russia had a small army before this and a GDP around Spain..it wasn't a threat to Western Europe. I honestly think this obsession goes back to some old world grevience the neocons/neolibs like Blinkin and Burns and Nuland/Kaganovich have..Trotsky lost to Stalin (the intelligensia in the west never got over that). We need foreign policy leaders who do not allow their personal historical issues cloud their judgement.
We need fewer “leaders”.
Fewer warboners like Biden, Bush, Clinton, and that Carolina fancy lad Graham.
https://twitter.com/SpriterTeam/status/1678737420139868163?t=ipi58ZzBGQ35Mf30sCttDA&s=19
Before the summit, NATO PR people released a video aimed at the egos of the leaders of the alliance with the chronology of membership
[Video]
I'm pretty sure that's actually NAFO propaganda, but seriously, has even a single one of those useless eaters ever actually been in the military?
NAFO propaganda = NATO propaganda
Is the claim that if Ukraine stays out of NATO, Russia would feel more secure, knowing any NATO invasion could only be launched from Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, or Poland — oh, or the US, which is only 20 miles away?
OK, let’s grant this stupid, stupid premise: that Russia would be rationally more anxious about NATO capability with Ukraine an explicit rather than implicit partner — or, at least that Russia would feel more anxious.
Well, so? Russia launched an illegal, unprovoked, and murderous war against a neighbor. Well, against several neighbors, but one in Europe, who was able to fight back. If Putin and his grisly accomplices are not sleeping as well because of the West’s reactions to their crimes, that is all to good.
Will it prolong the war? Will Putin fight harder because he knows that this is his last chance to invade without triggering a full-scale war with NATO?
Who the fuck cares? By all indications, he is fighting as hard as he can. Maybe he isn’t and he will be moved to further atrocities, but even if so, it would stand as warning to other would-be Napoleons that there are costs to warfare.
Go fight. I'll buy your ticket to the front lines. Fuck, I'll even give you a rifle and a case of ammo.
There is a difference between being antiwar, and being stupidly pacifist. I lean antiwar, but I am not a pacifist.
If your position is that war is impermissible even in self-defense, then that makes you a stupid pacifist who would rather die than defend one’s own nation. I can applaud the moral certainty of individuals who hold those types of beliefs, but as a national policy, it is insane and stupid. If that is what you think libertarians ought to believe, then I am getting off the train.
If your position is that war is permissible in self-defense, but not permissible for the defense of allies, again that is a big problem. What if Putin were to invade the Baltic countries? What if Putin were to invade Poland, or the rest of Europe? Should America come to Europe’s aid then? NATO obliges the government to do so, but ultimately it is the government’s decision whether or not to adhere to that agreement. And if you believe that America should not get involved even when it comes to the defense of allies, then that too is where I get off the train. Any nation must be faithful to the commitments it makes, otherwise no one should trust it or believe it in the future.
The more difficult case, is if war is justified in defense of an idea. When there is no necessary physical military aggression across borders, but the moral crimes taking place within a nation are so great, and non-military efforts to end those crimes have been unsuccessful, whether war can be justified. Because the world is a complex place and each situation is different, I don’t think the answer ought to be an absolute “no, it is NEVER justified”. But the bar for military intervention ought to be very very high. What if there was incontrovertible, unimpeachable proof that the government of a foreign nation was committing genocide? Was conducting mass enslavement? These are violations of rights of the highest order. COULD war be justified? I think that is a difficult call, but I don’t think the answer should be an automatic “no”. It’s worth a discussion.
Finally, the libertarian view on war, as I understand it, is that war represents a violation of rights on an immense scale, and so that is why war ought to be avoided except only when absolutely necessary. If that is the libertarian antiwar rationale, then that is reason to oppose America’s support of military aid to Ukraine (if you don’t think Ukraine is enough of an ally to be worthy of support), but it is ALSO reason to oppose Russian’s invasion of Ukraine in the first place. IT IS THE SAME REASON. So spending all one’s time bitching about the sins of Ukraine while saying nothing about Russia’s atrocities seems… misguided, and hypocritical.
Wars between corrupt eastern European countries have nothing to do with the US. Given it is eastern Europe, atrocities go back on all sides for decades or hundreds of years...where do you want to start?
If Mexico started to shell their border towns where American retirees lived and then started to have Chinese military aid and advisors what would we do?
Thank you for ignoring what I wrote and instead contributing your shallow vapid take.
He didn't, cytotoxic. He shoved your shallow, vapid take up your neocon faggot asshole where it belongs.
Yeah, we all remember the 20 years you spent sucking off Bush and Obama during their play time in the sandbox with your "bomb the sand niggers, and import the survivors" shtick, cytotoxic.
The mistake was not dismantling NATO when we won the cold war.
The USSR was a global threat..what was left of the USSR including Russia wasn't. But the neocons with their obsession with avenging Trotsky losing to Stalin and the "czar" along with delusions of a global "woke" empire (all hail the dictatorship of the democracy, goldman sachs and moral degeneracy) created an American Empire with wars of aggression on Iraq, Libya, Yemen and others.
Now cluster bombs because the US is out of conventional artillery..cluster bombs. Ukraine was an administrative province of the USSR and before that Russia. Creating a country where a good % of citizens are Russian was idiotic. Overthrowing their elected govt was idiotic. Playing on historical Russian paranoia (which based on history isn't complete without cause) was idiotic. Not listening to American cold warriors like George Keenan, Dan Monahyan was idiotic. But yes, Max Boot and the rest of the Trotsky neocon loving anti Americans should be listened to right? JC..Reason..how about giving Scott Horton or Douglas McGregor or other libertarians who are not war mongers some space.
End the Fed, stop supporting the new Trotksy (Zelinsky) and get the darn neocons out of running our foreign policy...
+
Russia, because it has 50% of the world's nukes, needs to be captured to achieve the WEF/Fabian global government goal.
That's why they put Yeltsin in after Gorbachev, and it's why they hate Putin.
Putin is a nationalist, and while it's conceivable he'd accept global government if he was head of it, he'll never take orders from the anglosphere or any other oligarchs because he's much smarter and more capable than them.
NATO's mission is to destroy Russia. And if they ever do destroy Russia, it will be turned on us.
The "NATO incited Russia's aggression against its neighbors" argument...
It is impossible to know what would have happened if NATO had been disbanded after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Maybe you're right? Maybe Russians would have embraced western European ideals and sought to come in from the cold? Sadly, we'll never know. And, therefore, it is rather pointless to speculate.
Russia has no obligation to become a western democracy for your pleasure, sarcasmic. And not one single American dollar is obligated to defend the CIA-installed actual, literal Nazi Ukrainian government against being invaded by its neighbor that it's had beef with for a century after it began ethnically cleansing Russians in territory that's been disputed for 10 years.
https://twitter.com/The_Real_Fly/status/1678931768685084672?t=yTOVd2gq_dDoSOsp2TJitg&s=19
The issue with our munitions stocks isn’t the money needed to replenish. Because America decided to gut its industrial base for foreign labor, we quite literally cannot make enough ammunition to support a war of this scale.
To do so, we’d need emergency orders converting auto manufacturers into tank and artillery makers and even that cannot keeps up with China, not even close
You can google this. America is doubling 155mm production to 24,000 shells per mo. Ukraine is using 300,000 per mo. This is deficit spending in the worst form possible
[Link]
I believe I could think of one case of deficit spending that is worse…being second is still bad.
What a fabulous turn of events it would be if the world’s armies ran out of ammo.
https://twitter.com/ArmchairW/status/1678941647428788224?t=N-ykmqXmXAJbx3iocR1Vpw&s=19
Am I the only person who noticed this?
If this report from the NATO Vilnius Summit is correct, the Federal Republic of Germany is about to have ZERO artillery shells left in its national stockpile.
If Putin decided to attend the summit tomorrow, could anyone actually stop him?
[Link]
A few years ago, the Bundeswehr was training soldiers using broom handles because they didn’t have enough rifles.
Adjacent, some months ago there was alarm regarding Ukraine invading Transnistria due to the belief that Tiraspol is storing large quantities of Soviet era and Ukraine equipment compatible munitions.
Russia isn’t giving up until they have suffered a humiliating defeat.
Once that’s done, might as well invite Ukraine. But I’m not sure what that does for NATO.
HAHAHaahahahahahhahahaah
Which flight do you leave on, chickenhawk?
NATO can do whatever it wants - as long as the US removes itself from NATO. The Libertarian position is that we will bring our troops home, defend our shores, and remove ourselves from entangling alliances. Simple.
Too many warboners profiteering from the MIC with many NPCs cheering them on like Soros’ Pedo Bushpig 2.
Try phrasing your comment in proper English next time, with no bizarre acronyms and no gratuitous insults. I have no clue what you meant in the comment above.
MIC = Military Industrial Complex
That is a term President Eisenhower first coined and refers to the arms industry manipulating policy for profit. It is commonly used.
NPC = Non-Player Character
An acronym first used in gaming and appropriated in the vernacular to refer to people that act like sheep. It is an English language term where many that learned English as a second language understand. Is the term sheep too esoteric or are we good?
SPB2 is a necon commenter here.
Warboner is another term from the vernacular referring to someone jingoistic; a saber rattler. It is occasionally used in the comments here.
Cheers.
No explanation necessary as Anastasia Beaverhausen is one of shreek's many sockpuppet accounts.
There wasn't a single grammatical or syntax error in that post, shreek. Maybe you should avoid trying to play pedant when all it does is make you look like an illiterate fucking retard. Of course being an illiterate retard is small potatoes stacked up against being a pedophile who got his original Sarah Palin's Buttplug account banned for posting dark web links to hardcore child pornography.
Although I agree with you, timing is important. We should have pulled out of NATO long before Putin annexed the Crimea and invaded Ukraine, not after. The U.S. should have declared a victory and pulled out of NATO shortly after the crumbling of the CCCP and the Warsaw pact and the democratization of eastern Europe.
I don't care when it gets done. The US should never have entered NATO, so whenever they withdraw is fine with me.
"An alliance membership hoped to shorten the current war will instead lengthen it by exacerbating Russian fears—whether justified or not—of Western attack."
This silly opinion is easily refuted no matter how often Reason writers try to float it. No one hopes that NATO membership by Ukraine will shorten the war with Russia. No one, especially Bonnie Kristian, knows what will happen if Ukraine joins NATO now. And, most especially, nothing could be less relevant to the discussion than the fabled Russian paranoia. Although I would not try to make this argument myself, it's just as likely that Russia annexed the Crimea and invaded Ukraine BECAUSE Ukraine was delayed from joining NATO.
And I guess I shouldn't be surprised but the thing that was hugely important at this NATO summit and entirely unmentioned in this article while being 100% pushed by the US was - the Asia pivot.
For the second year in a row, 4 Asian leaders were invited to the summit. NATO is planning to open an office in Japan.
The US establishment has been pushing this sort of shit for decades now. Reimagining NATO as the armed defender and promoter of Western (read American) values around the world. Now trying to pull NATO into Asia because the US itself believes we should be pivoting to Asia. This is a big reason that Europeans decided to just reduce their NATO contributions and take their Cold War peace dividend. They don't want NATO to do this. WE shouldn't want NATO to do this.
This is what noninterventionists should be focusing on re foreign policy. Not being Putin's appeaser and useful idiot now because noninterventionists failed to pay attention to NATO/NACC/PfP/etc back in the immediate aftermath of the Cold War. We didn't pay attention then. Weren't in the room. Didn't give a shit. And now want to pretend they have a clue about the aftermath.
Let me say it again. NATO is going to ASIA. And where are the noninterventionists? Crickets as usual.
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Sarc only knows how to make mayonnaise sandwiches.
That’s all his mommy fed him.
More for you geniuses to click on/instantly commit felonies...
I'd love to see one of your Soros-backed DAs try to make a case stick on somebody who inadvertently clicked a disguised link to hardcore child pornography that was instantly reported and removed, sarcasmic. Especially since the pedophile piece of shit you simp for that searched it out, masked the URL, and posted it wasn't charged. I guess shreek's a little better than you though. As far as we know he only watches little children get fucked on the dark web. You lost custody of your kids for sexually molesting them.