Cluster Bombs Aren't the Only Weapons That Kill People After a War Is Over
Progressive Democrats' opposition to sending cluster bombs to Ukraine is welcome. Their arguments apply to much of the military aid the U.S. is sending the country.

President Joe Biden's decision to include cluster bombs in his latest shipment of arms to Ukraine is creating rare public fissures in the otherwise rock-solid liberal consensus in favor of continued military aid to the embattled country.
Critics' argument against providing these munitions on the grounds that they will cause death and injury long after the war is over could easily be applied to most forms of military aid the U.S. is sending over there.
Defense officials announced the transfer of cluster bombs—which spread smaller bomblets when dropped—on Friday. Those bomblets often don't explode immediately, seeding areas with deadly explosives that continue to injure and kill people for years after a conflict ends.
The delayed damage from these bombs is why most countries (although not Ukraine, Russia, or the U.S.) have signed onto a treaty banning their use. U.S. law generally forbids their transfer, although the president can waive those restrictions. In a CNN interview, Biden said he made a "very difficult decision."
The president's reticence, and Ukrainian assurances that they'll use the munitions in a responsible manner, haven't mollified progressives nor America's European allies.
At Responsible Statecraft, Daniel Larison documents statements from a number of Democratic lawmakers unequivocally criticizing the transfer. Some 19 representatives signed a letter saying the move will "further endanger Ukrainian civilians" and undermines America's moral leadership.
"Experts warn that the likelihood of leaving behind dangerous unexploded material is dependent on several factors and potentially much higher than the Pentagon has estimated. The reality is that there is no such thing as a safe cluster bomb," they wrote. Reps. Sara Jacobs (D–Calif.) and Ilhan Omar (D–Minn.) have also introduced an amendment to this year's defense authorization bill to stop the transfer.
This level of public criticism is unusual given that even anti-war, progressive Democrats have generally been in lockstep behind the Biden administration's Ukraine policy. Contrast progressives' reaction to cluster bomb transfers to the debacle last year when the House Progressive Caucus issued a letter urging direct negotiations between the U.S. and Russian governments about ending the war in Ukraine only to retract it a day later.
It's a peculiarity of American foreign policy that so discourse and policy itself revolves around the types of weapons being used in a given conflict.
In both the Obama and Trump administrations, the U.S.' standard for attacking the Syrian government was whether it used chemical weapons—an odd "red line" that never made much sense given its liberal use of conventional weapons to kill and maim people.
The flashpoint over cluster bombs makes a little more sense at first brush—given the long, deadly second-life these weapons can have. But these aren't the only type of military hardware that can continue to claim life and limb after the official war ends.
Recall all the videos that circulated on the internet during the final chaotic hours of the U.S. evacuation from Afghanistan showing Taliban fighters driving around in American-made vehicles and toting American-made weapons.
All that hardware might not explode and kill people on its own like cluster bombs. Its capture is still a huge windfall for the new Taliban government, which can now use it in its plans for domestic score-settling and oppression.
Similar risks abound in Ukraine. The sheer number of weapons and war materials we've sent to the country heightens the risk that a significant portion of that aid will be diverted to unsavory paramilitary groups and criminal organizations.
A government watchdog report from last month found that U.S. military personnel were failing to adequately account for thousands of pieces of equipment, including small arms shipments, passing through Poland and into Ukraine, reported Task & Purpose.
U.S. diplomatic personnel in Ukraine also said last year that it's often "impractical or impossible" to exercise standard oversight of weapons shipments, given the intensity of the conflict.
Earlier this year, Pentagon officials told Congress they've seen "no evidence" that weapons sent to Ukraine are ending up in unintended hands.
Perhaps that's true. As the war rages on, the Ukrainian government has a huge incentive to get weapons into the hands of frontline soldiers.
It doesn't answer the question of what happens once the war in Ukraine ends, or at least winds down to something resembling the low-intensity conflict that persisted in the country's East prior to the Russian invasion.
A government with long-running corruption issues sitting on a lot of U.S.-supplied weapons it doesn't need as much anymore is a recipe for many of those weapons falling into the wrong hands.
And there are a lot of wrong hands in Ukraine.
To fight that earlier conflict in its East, the Ukrainian government leaned heavily on paramilitary groups, including far-right and neo-Nazi groups.
Early in the war, there was some evidence those same groups were getting Western-supplied weapons. Defense Department officials have dismissed more recent reports of that happening.
Even so, should the current war devolve into a frozen conflict, the odds that all the weapons we've sent over there (and that we currently can't account for) stay in responsible hands and aimed at their intended targets will diminish greatly.
U.S.-supplied cluster bombs will have deadly impacts in Ukraine long after formal hostilities cease between Russia and Ukraine. The same can easily be said of almost all weapons sent to the country.
The same reasons to oppose sending cluster bombs to Ukraine are the same reasons to oppose sending weapons to the country generally.
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Stop all US government funding to Kiev. Today.
Who is going to report the truth about the history of the Ukraine conflict?
The US, Biden, coordinating the coup and civil war in 2014, on Russias border, to give corrupt oligarchs control of Ukrainian wealth, putting the puppet Jew Zelensky in charge, funding Nazi AZOV battalions to lead a bloody civil war and terrorizing Russian speaking Ukrainians, destroying the Nord Stream Pipeline in an attempt to hurt Russia and make Europe dependent upon US energy and now giving Zelensky and his Nazis cluster bombs banned in over 120 countries.
I’m no journalist and I can connect these dots easily.
cluster bombs banned in over 120 countries.
Not including USA, Ukraine and Russia, none of which ratified the convention on cluster munitions.
It’s not Russia that’s planning to use them.
Russia has already used them. Repeatedly.
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It looks like both Ukraine and Russia have used them.
That doesn’t excuse the use of them.
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Putin is the one who brought up use of Nuclear weapons, a weapon with a Hell of a deadlier record for collateral damage.
Fuck Off, Putineer Nazi!
How would the US react if Russia coordinated a communist coup in Mexico?
The same way maybe?
Yes, let's compare elections in Ukraine with those in Russia. Go on, lets.
Russia's are far more legitimate.
Compare Ukraine's to the US, then there's a debate.
Oh right, sure. Pull the other one.
You dismiss the idea because an article of faith that you've never bothered to think independently about.
Putin has been president/leader for 20+ years.
He just had a large PMC mutiny. It last 12 hours. He barely said a word, pardoned all the mutineers, and only fake exiled the ringleader.
But sure, Russia has super fake elections because Russians couldn't possibly think Putin is the best leader for their country.
Really big brained theory there.
In the middle of an ongoing "coup"
https://twitter.com/UniqueMongolia/status/1672832303658332160?t=1m58e_RZRwF52_nQFe4yIA&s=19
While western and ukrainian propaganda was promoting civil war in Russia the “Scarlet Sails” celebration for the high school graduation wasn’t canceled in St.Petersburg. It ended peacefully with traditional fireworks – not the kind the West was expecting.
[Video]
Yep, better fake those elections. Look how unhappy they are!
https://twitter.com/ArthurM40330824/status/1673762768380370952?t=lEvEYeahFWzTzc3KgB--yQ&s=19
One of the high school Graduation ceremonies in #Russia
They sing: I am Russian, I am lucky to be..
I am Russian despite everything in the world
This song has become an anthem of the current #Russian Generation that no longer sees the #West as a guide but rather as a fallen idol
[Video]
Zely suspended the March, 2024 presidential election in Ukraine.
Sure did.
After banning opposition parties and churches, consolidating all media to be run by the State, and jailing people for not being pro Ukraine enough...
The Cuban Missile Crisis provides an opportunity for discussion.
And the Zimmerman Telegram of WW1.
But, but, but, we're AMERICA! We're supposed to get to do whatever we want!
I'm smarter than you think I am and than I think you are.
If Commies come to Mexico City, I'd send conventional arms to pro-freedom, anti-Communist Mexican Citizens like Don Diego/Zorro and Napoleon Dynamite's friend Pedro Sánchez to counter the Chipotle-flavored Marxist-Leninists.
¡Olé! ¡Zappa vence los Zapatistas todo de la dia! ¡Muerte a los Perros Rojos!
🙂
And I'd save my nukes to shoot down Putin's nukes, Xi's nukes, Kim's nukes, the Ayatollahs nukes, and any nukes from the Nazi Vril inside The Hollow Earth or on The Dark Side of the Moon.
🙂
Iron Sky Official Trailer #2 - Nazi's on the Moon Movie (2012) HD
https://youtu.be/Jth4yATniS4
Iron Sky The Coming Race - Official Trailer
https://youtu.be/YC8Z6i59s7o
Meanwhile, you may want to crawl back under your rock and warn your subterranean friends that they better back off with the nukes or they'll become Gamma-fried Wienerschnitzel.
🙂
Fuck Off, Nazi!
If you want real Nazis just ask your buddy Zelensky for some of his.
You’re the real Nazi and I don’t want any more Nazis in any Nation!
And my “buddies” are the freedom-loving people of Ukraine, no matter who is in office and the freedom-loving people in Russia imprisoned and silenced and dragged along for the crazy train by Putin.
I wish the Azovs and the Wagner Group would have a run-in during this fog of war and kill each other off!
Oh, and since these are all in fact your buddies, Fuck Off, Nazi!
Lenin and his Jewish Bolsheviks overthrew the government of Russia in 1917 creating communism, the Soviet Union and the secret police.
You have your buddies to thank Kol Nidre boy.
You might as well argue that Communism and Nazism are Greek because Plato wrote of his ideal Totalitarian society The Republic and inspired both of these blood-soaked Twentieth Century ideologies.
And going further, you might as well trace these ideologies to the first tribes, when humans knew little about their world and it's bounties and had to huddle together around the Collective and the Big Kahuna Chiefie-Weefie Fearless Leader to survive.
Shut up and eat your tribe-allotted pickings and Fuck Off, Nazi!
You’d think that after the US provided Israel cluster bombs which they proceeded to flood civilian areas with in Lebanon in the final days of their war with hezbolla in 2006 causing years of civilian casualties and prompting their being banned by over 120 nations, Biden would recognize that giving them to Zelensky and his Nazis would be bad optics.
“ Israel’s strikes in 2006 were the most extensive use of cluster munitions anywhere in the world since the 1991 Gulf War.4 Based on its own field response and a review of public reports, the UN Mine Action Coordination Center South Lebanon (MACC SL) estimated, as of January 15, 2008, that Israel fired cluster munitions containing as many as four million submunitions in 962 separate strikes…
That is more than twice as many submunitions used by Coalition forces in Iraq in 2003 and more than 15 times the number used by the United States in Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002.
The IDF’s cluster munition strikes were spread over an area of approximately 1,400 square kilometers north and south of the Litani river, an area comparable in size to the US state of Rhode Island (1,214 square kilometers). Within the 1,400 square kilometer area, deminers have so far confirmed an aggregate area of 38.7 square kilometres, including at least 4.3 square kilometers of urban land, 20 square kilometers of agricultural land, and 4 square kilometers of woodland, as directly contaminated by submunitions.
Looking at the number of submunitions they have cleared compared to the number of strikes, clearance experts have indicated that the failure rates for many of Israel’s submunitions appear to have averaged 25 percent, “
That left about 1 million unexplored bombs spread out over an area the size of Rhode Island. And YES of course they knew what they were doing.
Unexploded
Have you ever thought that if it wasn't for 3000+ years of Pagan, Christian, Islamic, Nazi, and Communist Anti-Semitism, there never would have been a call for the formation of an Israel?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
And in all those years and millennia more, stupid fucking Jews still can’t recognize that THEIR corrupt behaviour is responsible for how they are perceived.
You demonstrate this in spades
It sure has rubbed off in US policy.
.
Asshat. "Jew Zelensky" - tells me all I need to know about you. Scum.
That ain’t much bigot.
It isn’t about me.
An article on weapons that kill after the war is over and no mention of land mines?
The main reason the U.S. is sending cluster artillery shells (not bombs) is that we are running out of stockpiles of all kinds of ammo.
Let’s discuss only artillery shells.
It will take literally years to replace everything we sent to Ukraine.
Sending these cluster munition shells will give our factories a little time to manufacture more conventional artillery shells.
Ukraine is shooting 6,000 artillery rounds of all calibers per day.
That’s 180,000 per month.
They still have plenty of Soviet 152 mm howitzers, along with U.S.and NATO supplied 155 mm howitzers.
No one seems to know the mix of NATO caliber 155 and Soviet 152mm in that 6,000 rounds per day.
The U.S. produces 14,000 155 rounds per month.
Even with our plans to increase production to 90,000 rounds per month this will not suffice for Ukrainian needs.
Ukraine has started up new production of Soviet caliber 152 mm shells, and the Eastern European NATO members are re-starting 152 mm production as well.
France and Australia are going to jointly produce 155 mm shells for Ukraine, but these will be sold, not donated.
If I were Chinese or Iranian General, now is the time to attack my neighbor while NATO and US have an ammunition shortage.
It’s a cluster fuck already.
Biden’s proxy war has bombed.
Yes, but has it cluster bombed?
That's next week.
With Biden involved, it was inevitable.
What on earth makes the writer think that "post war the arms supplied won't be needed anymore"???
Short of getting immediately into NATO, Ukraine is going to have to adopt the Israeli approach of being heavily armed and ready to fight at a moments notice. And that probably includes reacquiring nukes. Nothing else will keep the Russians at bay.
Article appears to have been written to justify withholding aid rather than with any serious contention about weapons theft.
Ukraine doesn't steal weapons, they just sell them to the highest bidder.
"Nothing else will keep the Russians at bay."
The Russians tried repeatedly to stay at bay.
Ukraine broke every agreement.
Maybe Ukraine should try not ethnically cleansing regions at odds with Kiev's illegitimate government.
Regions that were promised in formal agreement by Kiev to gain more autonomy. Merkel admitted that Minsk was only to buy the regime there time to stockpile more materiel.
Then a couple months after the "special military operation" commenced, Russia again offered terms which were reportedly acceptable to Zelensky but were nixed by the Biden administration.
Nice pic. Those aren't cluster munitions. And I'm trying to figure out what plane that is. It's not a modern fighter. Maybe an A-6?
Accuracy isn't important in a fluffy opinion piece. It's an AR16 semi-fully automatic cluster napalm bomb and vaccine dispenser designed for firey but peaceful protests.
With the thing that goes up.
The thing that goes up is what makes any weapon twice, no, ten times as deadly, especially when combined with clips that hold hundreds of magazines of bullets. For the sake of the children it must be banned,
Reminds me of the US Pacific Fleet’s July 4th publishing a graphic showing a US serviceman saluting Russian Sukhoi Su-27s and a Kashin class destroyer.
With his left hand
Looking at the relationship between the hardpoints and the landing gear, it could be an A-7.
Could be an A-7. It's hard to make out the position of the tail elevators from the photo angle. The elevators were below wing-level on the A-7, above on the A-6.
Those are Mk82 low drag general purpose bombs with 904 imoact fuzes in the nose. Definitely not CBUs.
You're right. Those are 500 lb. Mk. 82 Snake Eyes with retards.
The aircraft looks like it might be an A-7D.
I'll leave the A7 vs. A6 to the Sailors. I just know it ain't a B52.
Crtl+F "landmine" = 0. How could you leave out such an obvious analogy while using such a poor one like, "the Taliban has lethal US weapons." Amature hour.
Ukraine is using landmines. Didnt make the cut of proper outrage since it hasn't made it to the NYT.
I know "both sides" has a bad reputation, but, literally, both sides are using landmines.
Russia isn't being held up as a paragon of virtue. Ukraine is and asking for more weapons.
That was my thinking too. Landmines should have been first in this analysis.
If the only measure of how bad a weapon is is how many people it kills "after" the war than nuclear weapons don't seem so bad.
Don't cry Timmy. Your parents died way before the war ended.
You’re giving them a glowing review?
This thread is pretty rad.
For now; it might fissile out soon.
A fusion of puns and gloom.
It’s full of gray humor.
That's the best humor to throw atom.
I'm curie-ous how it will end.
I hope I get enough REM sleep tonight.
I expect heavy fallout from this post.
Truly, the Ukrainians have sievert enough from this invasion.
Go add up the deaths in Hiroshima and compare that to the deaths in Dresden. To have a good comparison for the later on radiation deaths, try to figure out how many died later from starvation and disease. You know, when the conventional/incendiary ordinance mingled the sewers and the drinking water, and burned up all the food.
Then look at the number of aircrews at risk in each attack.
Yes, but it was ok to kill Germans because they started the war... or something
You are correct. I was totally wrong.
If they tabulated deaths by sex, they would need a guy-girl counter.
Which nowadays would mean the needle would function as a mini box fan.
🙂
A bonus-hole detector?
If unexploded cluster bombs hurting and killing civilians are an issue*, then naturally the solution is to make sure that they have a better record of exploding and to aim them exclusivlely towards offensive targets.
Rig all ordinance with a micro-size, encrypted, digital Spread-Spectrum Transmission Radio Frequency Trigger and Tracer Tranceiver (SSTRFTTT.)
The SSTRFTTT would be used to trigger the explosive if impact failed to do so. And if the explosive still didn't explode, after a certain point, the SSTRFTTT would send out a signal for ground drones to triangulation, trace, dig up, and set off the explosive.
And because all signals are digital and Spread-Spectrum and use unique encryption, the enemy can't set off anything on the launching pad or trace anything to the user.
No fuss, no muss, and much less chance that anyone gets killed who doesn't have it coming.
* Unexploded ordinance is a problem in the U.S. too. Just down the road a piece from where I am, there was a Town a few years ago where somebody discovered a buried miniature arsenal of shootable, explosive weaponry and munitions dating back to the First World War!
Anything that can prevent that hazard should be welcome by anyone, regardless of your position on foreign policy...though I doubt Putin loves his children too.
Hell they found explosive cannonballs left over from the Civil War in Pittsburgh a few years back.
Then there's this clown writing as if the Ukraine is only getting weapons from the US.
In a CNN interview, Biden said he made a “very difficult decision.”
My guess is that it went something like this:Biden: “What the fuck am I supposed to do with all these cluster bombs we’re never going to use?”
Minion: “There’s always Ukraine”
Biden: “Oh, I know, we’ll send them to Kiev!”
Minion: “That’s what I said.”
Biden: “Nobody fucks with a Biden minion, I control the all the Reaper drones so while you can’t be first, you can be next. Comprende, minion? That won’t be a difficult decision.”
Biden will soon be demanding that Steiner help Zely.
"The Ukraine girls really knock me out
They leave the West behind
And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
That Georgia's always on
My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my mind"
Oh, show me 'round your snow-peaked mountains
Way down south
Take me to your daddy's farm
Let me hear your balalaikas ringing out
Come and keep your comrade warm
I'm back In the U.S.S.R
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the U.S.S.R
I'll just stay in the U.S.S.A.
But we all know Putin is almost as evil as Donald Trump and Zelenskyy of the Virgin Birth is pure as snow so it's all good, nothing could possibly go wrng. Wrong. I meant nothing could possibly go wrong.
When some of these end up in the hands of Mexican narcolords, Biden and Graham will have their casus belli.
Japanese Sumatorti wrestlers are casus bellies. 🙂
Were the slave owner southern gals casus belles?
Yep, and their men like Rhett Butler were Ding-Dong Daddies. (Mad props to old Looney Tunes on that one.)
🙂
And just think: If Muhammad Ali never converted to Islam and became a Sumatori wrestler, his ring name could be Cassius Belly!
🙂
https://twitter.com/Henrik_Palmgren/status/1678527522768838656?t=sYp2oxOPOPP2TdtaqRAbGw&s=19
Topless White Women in Southern Spain watch as boatloads of migrants pour (illegally) into the country
This was about 3 days ago in "Cabo de Gata-Nijar Natural Park".
Since Pedro Sánchez became President of Spain in June 2018, about 200 000 illegals have arrived in Spain.
Did I mention that Pedro Sánchez is the General Secretary of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party.
[Video]
What a dirty Sanchez.
What’s Bezos’ babe’s name?
I wouldn't want to be those chicks unless I was well armed.
Well, silly me. I thought the purpose of war was to kill people.
The United States decided over a century ago that "civilians" were legitimate military targets.
"We are not only fighting armies, but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war, as well as their organized armies. I know that this recent movement of mine through Georgia has had a wonderful effect in this respect."
- William Tecumseh Sherman
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1678568931085123584?t=zqZgzmRdXYRZ3U-XtrGbLQ&s=19
The 18 hours of that Wagner Group tantrum was one of the most inane moments for our esteemed foreign policy and disinformation expert class. Go back and read what they said: you'll be embarrassed for them.
Many claimed Putin had fled on a private jet in panic over the "coup."
[Link]
Pentagon officials told Congress they've seen "no evidence" that weapons sent to Ukraine are ending up in unintended hands.
Being proven liars, we know this isn’t true.
Motherfuckers should wear defense contractor patches on their uniforms like NASCAR drivers.
They are not lying. They just aren't defining "unintended hands". For all we know the weapons are going exactly where they want them to go.
This is hilarious. Russians are killing Ukrainian civilians daily right now, using artillery and rockets and doing all sorts of horrible stuff in occupied cities (they just raped and murdered a 12 year old girl in Mariupol).
But the real danger to Ukrainian civilians is leftover mines the Ukrainian army wants to use on Russian soldiers?
This is like telling firefighters not to use water to put out a house fire, because it will get the furniture wet.
Found Ken Schultz's new account.
Begone, NAFO soy
https://twitter.com/HighSpeculation/status/1678122450712768512?t=cO8tcCg0cByb-x5aW6Qv5A&s=19
Yep. Because if Russia does take Ukraine, that will end their appetite for territorial expansion forever, and they’ll beat their cluster bombs into plowshares.
When they haven’t been subject to western expansion, they’ve played friendly. Western backed puppet states funded by the US taxpayer had been committing genocide on the Donbas residents. After 7+ years of attempting to reconcile that through diplomatic means including through Minsk agreements that Kiev broke, the bear had been poked enough.
Look, think what you will of whether the U.S. should be in NATO (and I think we should wean Europe off of our aid so they can develop their own defense systems) but NATO didn't get any of its post-Cold War members by annexation or invasion. All membership is by invitation and/or assession.
Also, this war is a cameraphone war. Millions of people on both sides of this war have cameraphones and use them whether either Zelenskyy or Putin like it or not. If Ukraine committed genocide against ethnic Russians in Ukraine, don't you think the video would be out there by now, or am I missing something?
You missed it. It's out there.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
This article is so poorly edited, I couldn't read it.
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