Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
Have we forgotten the era of mass institutionalization?

Choosing the Streets Over Shelters Is Dangerous for Everyone
Affirmative: Jared Meyer

Walking through downtowns across the United States, one could be excused for becoming numb to outbursts from visibly disturbed and impaired individuals. Two decades ago, the idea that major American cities would condone (or in some cases, encourage) this situation was unthinkable. If a person was unable to take care of themselves, the options were moving to shelter or, if illness put themselves or others at risk, a clinical setting. Tent-filled homeless camps that stretch across city blocks or throughout public parks were simply not on the table.
A recent UCLA study confirmed the obvious: More than 75 percent of the unsheltered homeless surveyed have a substantial mental health problem, 75 percent have an alcohol or drug addiction, and the majority suffer from both. These afflictions, not a lack of housing, drive street homelessness in America. Choosing to live with the waste, disease, and violence that accompanies homeless camps is a clear sign that someone is not in control and needs an intervention. The only way to solve this problem is to force people off the streets and into safer settings that can treat the root causes of homelessness.
Imagine if you were suffering from untreated schizophrenia or an out-of-control addiction to opioids and found yourself living in a dangerous street camp. You distrust everyone in the system and perhaps do not even realize you are sick. Would you want your loved ones or the government to be able to get you help even if you did not want it? Many people of sound mind would, by force if necessary.
Moving homeless individuals off the streets works. After Los Angeles cleared its notorious Skid Row in 2006, the number of homeless deaths in the city dropped by half. A 2010 study showed that the successful campaign also led to a 40 percent reduction in violent crime, with no spillover effects into other communities.
It is also clear what happens when cities repeal or refuse to enforce their bans on homeless camping in public places. When Los Angeles began allowing the proliferation of street camps again in 2014, the city saw homeless deaths quadruple to five a day. This is a much higher death rate than U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan saw during the heights of the wars there. The Phoenix government does not enforce its camping ban, and more than 500 homeless people died on the city's streets in the first half of 2022. Most of these deaths were caused by drug use, but almost one in 10 were homicides.
After Austin repealed its ban in 2019, the city saw a 45 percent increase in unsheltered homelessness even as the number of people staying in shelters dropped. Deaths among Austin's homeless numbered 77 just a decade ago, but rose to 256 in 2020 after the camping ban ended (almost none of which were COVID-related). After 2019, Austin also endured double-digit increases in violent crimes involving the homeless. This is unsurprising, as neighborhoods next to street camps have higher levels of armed robbery, rape, and aggravated assault. The victims of these crimes are often other vulnerable homeless individuals.
Some homeless people need more than shelters and services to stabilize and get better. Unfortunately, mental health commitment laws, which states changed in response to past abuses and pressure from civil liberty groups, make it too difficult for those experiencing a major mental crisis to get help. According to the Treatment Advocacy Center, a national advocate for psychiatric treatment, four states require family or friends to refuse to help their loved ones for them to be eligible for some types of commitment. States often do not have "psychiatric deterioration" nor "grave disability" standards, which limits the services individuals can receive when they are clearly suffering from severe mental illness or addiction. Even when the standards for involuntary care are met, states' maximum inpatient hold and outpatient supervision times are often too short to lead to lasting change.
Those who oppose moving the homeless off the streets on individual liberty grounds often fail to distinguish between public and private property. (The United States finds itself in the odd position of overregulating private property while underregulating public property.) As much as some may hope otherwise, roads and most parks remain public property in cities. Government having and enforcing ordinances that regulate what is acceptable in these public places is necessary to protect public safety, personal property, and general order. The popularity of camping bans in referendums and opinion polls shows local residents know that in dense urban areas, allowing individuals to use public space however they choose is a recipe for disaster.
Solving unsheltered homelessness, along with the causal factors of mental illness and addiction, is difficult. But the current "solution" of choosing the streets over shelters and health care facilities is not working. All levels of government need to update their approaches and move individuals off the streets into safer alternatives—without their consent if necessary.
Don't Lock Up People Who Haven't Committed a Crime
Negative: Mike Riggs
In 1963, nearly 600,000 Americans lived in state-run hospitals because medical authorities insisted they were mentally ill and couldn't live alone or with loved ones. In an address he gave that year to Congress, President John F. Kennedy described the facilities where these men and women were held, many against their will, as "unpleasant institutions from which death too often provided the only firm hope of release." The libertarian psychiatrist Thomas Szasz, in a 2000 interview with Reason's Jacob Sullum, called them "feudal slave estates."
When a midcentury progressive Democrat and a firebrand classical liberal conclude that a government policy stinks, it stinks.
Kennedy's alternative to mass institutionalization for both the mentally ill and the intellectually disabled (who accounted for an additional 200,000 victims of institutionalization in 1963) was to shift federal funding from state-run hospitals to community treatment centers that could help patients without pulling them from their neighborhoods, families, and homes. "When carried out, reliance on the cold mercy of custodial isolation will be supplanted by the open warmth of community concern and capability," Kennedy told Congress. "Emphasis on prevention, treatment and rehabilitation will be substituted for a desultory interest in confining patients in an institution to wither away."
Szasz, who spent his career arguing against the idea that mental illnesses are actual illnesses, wanted to simultaneously abolish all forms of involuntary psychiatric care and the insanity defense. He insisted that people who behaved violently should be incarcerated regardless of the psychological impetus for their behavior. People who merely acted weirdly or believed weird things, on the other hand, should be left to their own (nonviolent) devices. Szasz insisted that no one has the authority to stop an adult from hurting themselves. A homeless man who attacks a passerby should be tried and punished for assault and battery; a homeless man who claims to be Jesus and uses fentanyl in the open should not.
The Szaszian approach is too Manichean for criminal justice reformers and too soft for law-and-order types, but it at least has a limiting principle. Mentally ill people can be deprived of their liberty only as a form of punishment and only if they victimize someone; they cannot be deprived of their liberty to merely deliver them from temptation or risk.
The Supreme Court contributed to deinstitutionalization when it ruled in O'Connor v. Donaldson (1975) that the state and its agents cannot confine people indefinitely simply because they have been diagnosed with a mental illness. Kenneth Donaldson, the plaintiff in that case, was involuntarily committed to a state-run psychiatric hospital in Florida in 1957 because his father said he experienced delusions. Donaldson spent the next 15 years in a crowded asylum, refused his freedom by J.B. O'Connor, the hospital superintendent, who testified that Donaldson was never violent, suicidal, or in need of therapy. He was simply a person with schizophrenia and thus belonged in the care of the state.
The old institutional model, which vacuumed up people like Donaldson and dismissed their indignation as a medical symptom, was itself a wide-reaching disease. At their peak, state mental hospitals contained three times as many people as are currently in federal prison—at a time when the U.S. population was roughly 60 percent of what it is now.
Scott Alexander, the pseudonymous blogger and San Francisco–based psychiatrist, supports a fusion of the Szaszian and community care approaches. "In my model," he wrote in 2016, "the overwhelming majority of mentally ill people can live okay lives outside of any institution, hopefully receiving community care if they want it. If they commit crimes they will go to prison just like anyone else."
Community care has never received the federal funding that Kennedy intended, but it does exist, even in places with large populations of mentally ill unhoused persons. But no policy model can eradicate homelessness. Not everyone on the street wants or can benefit from intervention. Involuntary commitment, even for the short, multiday periods currently allowed under most state laws, often exacerbates feelings of paranoia. Holding patients indefinitely turns them into prisoners. The only comprehensive solution—make homelessness illegal, and aggressively enforce that law—would be unconstitutional and barbaric.
But there is low-hanging fruit. Allow developers to build more housing to drive down prices. End the drug war so that opioid users know what they're putting into their bodies. Stand up to NIMBY ("not in my backyard") activists, who routinely insist on ghettoizing services for the poor and sabotaging the efforts of private actors like outdoor soup kitchens. And yes, those who are violent or destructive should have their liberties revoked in proportion.
There is no easy solution, but there is a very obvious bad one: locking away people for the grave sin of not having curtains to hide their faults.
Subscribers have access to Reason's whole May 2023 issue now. These debates and the rest of the issue will be released throughout the month for everyone else. Consider subscribing today!
- Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
- Debate: Artificial Intelligence Should Be Regulated
- Debate: Democracy Is the Worst Form of Government Except for All the Others
- Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
- Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
- Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
- Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
- Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
- Debate: Cats Are More Libertarian Than Dogs
- Debate: Make Housing Affordable by Abolishing Growth Boundaries, Not Ending Density Restrictions
- Debate: Bitcoin Is the Future of Free Exchange
- Debate: Be Optimistic About the World
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Locking them up is kinder than exterminating them.
"Don't Lock Up People Who Haven't Committed a Crime"
Well, that won't be a difficult bar to get over.
Well Hell's Bells, just pass some laws against being illegal sub-humans, trannies, “groomers”, gays, heathens, infidels, vaxxers, mask-wearers, atheists, Jews, witches, or, the very WORST of them all, being one of those accused of STEALING THE ERECTIONS OF OUR DEAR LEADER, right, right-wing wrong-nuts? ANY methods are OK, so long as they are used against the CORRECT enemies, am I right?
Now you're just cut-n-pasting it in.
Of course it is. It's a retarded meat robot.
Hmmm, the vast majority of homeless and the same percentage both on drugs and mentally ill. That’s the correlation we need to recognize.
As with many mental illness related problems the professional medical community is opposed by lobbyists for mentally ill lifestyles that oppose even the concept of rehabilitation.
The majority of this group don’t need incarceration with criminals but they do need incarceration with controlled separation from their drug dependency in conjunction with the development of self worth through productive labour resulting in them meeting their own basic needs of food, clothing and shelter.
This will help those who can become valued members of society and identify other needs for those who fail to.
The first group that needs to be addressed are the lobbyists advocating the mentally ill lifestyles.
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But it is true, about what the right-wing wrong-nuts think. And they justify themselves by spreading their self-righteous hateful lies! Wrong compounded is made right-wing, until all butt the Perfectly Right-Winged Angelic Ones will be housed in compounds, or worse!
Truth doesn't become less true when it is repeated.
M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie, the Hope for Healing Human Evil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these “people of the lie” work in the lives of those around them.
SQRLSY should be locked up. Or better yet, euthanized.
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Rough for all the leftists, including Reason writers, that demand exactly that over the J6 protest. Fuck those marxist cunts.
The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now come to Odor!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must it be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, It Has Become Known Unto us, that it is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must It Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with it! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!
There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered it ALL! You can take the rest of the day off.
(You’re welcome!)
It's great when I see "SQRLSY One". I know I can just skip down to the next set of comments.
Mute is a glorious thing. I don't have to pay the slightest bit of attention to its drivel.
THIS is why perlmonger mutes its so-called "conscience"!!!
Third option, let them fight to the death in colosseums for the entertainment of the masses. Of course this time we will pay them and they will be famous. Think of all the economic opportunitities with selling merc and gambling. ENB can market some hookers to the winners.
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Greenland and Puerto Rico should be used to send those who cannot fit in peacefully with their neighbors. Supply bulk food and give them a set amount of building materials so they can build shelter.
Foreign Exchange Program!
For every person that crosses the US – Mexico border illegally, heading north, we send a homeless person to Mexico City.
I mean, at least many of the people heading north actually do want to work...
Seriously, we need to think about banishment and exile as a more libertarian solution. Once a community agrees on norms and laws, no matter how strict, the best way to deal with people who do not comply is to send them elsewhere.
I think the Squirrel is worried he might get shipped off somewhere people won't put up with his shit. Or feed him any.
But that would upset our egalitarian overlords.
So other nations ("shithole" nations, populated by our "inferiors") should serve as our dumping grounds? "Seriously", ass you say? This sounds like some serious fascism and militarism!!! What would you say if the "shithole" nations deliberately, systematically used the USA as their "dumping grounds"?
Also, this sounds like Hitler proposing the use of Madagascar as dumping grounds for Jews! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan ... Heil Earth-based Human Skeptic !!!!
That is the libertarian and the traditional solution.
The problem is that we ran out of places to banish people to. That's why prisons got built. Think of them as "tiny places of exile."
But luckily, blue cities and states have opened up for that purpose, and they are cheaper than prisons. A perfect opportunity for libertarian impulses in red states: just send law breakers to blue states.
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Once a community agrees on norms and laws, no matter how strict, the best way to deal with people who do not comply is to send them elsewhere.
so the community's rules take precedence over individual liberty?
(assuming of course these rules go beyond simple violations of the NAP)
You have no real concept of individual liberty except for weaponizing it to destroy community rules that are contrary to your leftist beliefs.
What is the maximum scale of free association?
"so the community’s rules take precedence over individual liberty?"
Depends, are the community's rules things like no murder or no rape? Are you pro-rape and/or murder Jeff?
Only if you rape and murder your own children. That's no one else's business.
could we send them over to Ukraine to help fight the Russians?
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The argument against was weak.
Allowing open air drug dens, even for legalized fentanyl, hurts all the general public.
Letting mentally ill drug addicts stagger around and pass out in traffic is just enabling drug abuse.
The tax payers have a right to use the public street and parks without harassment from homeless claiming the space for themselves.
We don’t allow that here in Florida
Thank you Governor Desantis!
"Allowing open air drug dens, even for legalized fentanyl, hurts all the general public."
Sure, granted. What pisses me off about (what I have read about) stuff that goes on in the likes of San Fran, is that there is open dealing of dangerous drugs there, right out in the street, by dealers who aren't punished or jailed. Yet reputable (degreed, licensed, certified, etc.) doctors, and pain-pill manufacturers, are punished nine ways to Sunday!!! And we end up with patients committing suicide for lack of pain control!
"If thou wantest to distribute pain meds, thous shalt NOT try to do it in a properly authorized and systematically controlled manner!"
There has GOT to be a better "middle way"!!! What we have now makes ZERO sense!
There’s some sort of UBI in dem cities that is flowing back to the cartels and CCP. The cartels do not give out this stuff free of charge. I read, a few years ago, San Francisco gives $300 cash/month.
Debate: My opponent should stop kicking his dog!
Debate: Strawman arguments should be abolished!
Debate: There really is accounting for taste!
Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no!
But we have created institutions to care for the homeless, including the insane. Most progressive cities, especially in warmer climates, created habitats and support programs for perpetual hobo life. Other people are just confused about the purpose of these cities.
Yeah, the fact that deep blue cities encourage and enable this to continue is a big part of the problem.
The issues with homelessness on a mass scale are rooted in social rot and dysfunction, and exacerbated by the pathological altruism of leftists. There's no ideal solution to a problem that features rampant drug use, mental illness, and lack of work ethic. And even the homeless who possess some self-awareness about it will outright admit that all blue-city policy does is incentivize the homeless to remain in that state of personal rot. They aren't going to remain for very long in areas that treat them like pariahs, just like any other environment of social ostracization.
So no, we haven't forgotten what these institutions were like, but they weren't any worse than what we see now. However, even if we brought them back, it would just be a band-aid, since you'd have to change the culture of blue cities to actually mitigate the problem of homelessness.
The worst part is that progressive altruism makes the afflicted's problems significantly worse.
And now that major progressive cities have large groups who make their money off of homelessness, there is zero desire to end it there whatsoever.
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"makes the afflicted’s problems significantly worse."
That's in tents.
Ba-dum-CHING!
Bum-mer.
" They aren’t going to remain for very long in areas that treat them like pariahs, just like any other environment of social ostracization."
Fans of mob justice might consider this: One of the harshest penalties that the courts of Medieval England, reserved only the most serious crimes, like gathering firewood from the Lord's estate, was to be declared an outlaw, someone outside the protections afforded by law.
"To be declared an outlaw was to suffer a form of civil or social[6] death. The outlaw was debarred from all civilized society. No one was allowed to give him food, shelter, or any other sort of support—to do so was to commit the crime of aiding and abetting, and to be in danger of the ban oneself. A more recent concept of "wanted dead or alive" is similar, but implies that a trial is desired (namely if the wanted person is returned alive), whereas outlawry precludes a trial. An outlaw might be killed with impunity, and it was not only lawful but meritorious to kill a thief fleeing from justice—to do so was not murder. "
As I mentioned, being declared an outlaw was one of the harshest penalties. If the Lord or sheriff were in a good mood and feeling generous, the firewood thief may get off with being blinded.
Fans of mob justice might consider this
Pointing out that people respond to incentives is hardly an analogy to mob justice.
In for a penny, in for a pound, as they used to say in medieval England. If you're going to treat people like pariahs, why dick around with 'responding to incentives?'
Why not?
The notion that people choose homelessness as a response to incentives is ludicrous. The incentives lie entirely on the side of living in a home, starting with a bed in a warm dry place with privacy. The idea that people are somehow incentivized to forego that and all the other advantages of having a home is wrong headed.
The notion that people choose homelessness as a response to incentives is ludicrous
Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't make it so.
"Just because you don’t want to accept it doesn’t make it so."
It does make it so. I've spent years asking homeless people why they choose the lifestyle. Not one has claimed to be 'responding to incentives.'
It does make it so. I’ve spent years asking homeless people why they choose the lifestyle. Not one has claimed to be ‘responding to incentives.’
Resorting to pedantry doesn't make it so either. Incentives to leave work the same as incentives to stay.
Double down on stupid. Incentives simply aren't the magic formula you believe they are.
Some outlaws however became mythical folk heroes. Some of them indeed become part of the history of how a free people actually recovered ancient rights (Charter of the Forest 1217). See Robin Hood. where yes King John (boo hiss) and the High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, and the Royal Forests are the villains. Even though the real life hero-king in question during that post-Magna Carta Civil War was Henry III not Richard.
"Some outlaws however became mythical folk heroes. "
They were also homeless. Only they shat in the woods, sidewalks being rare back then.
fuck your politics and fuck you
Some people should not be living isn an insane asylum, so we must all live in an insane asylum.
Affirmative is the adult solution vs the negative that lets the inmates control the asylum, then the town square, the village, the County, and ultimately the State itself - all in the name of 'Libertarian' - which is worse than anarchy.
Libertarianism, as a political, economic, and social movement, is ultimately going to be most successful in a high-trust, culturally homogenous environment, simply because the incentives to cooperate and not take advantage of each other are going to be a lot higher. It simply won't work in the kind of state we have now for that very reason.
I warned against having anything to do with anarchist whack jobs back in 1980. Who remembers Thorazine? America was littered with asylums till CPZ was found to relieve symptoms of of mental illness. Large doses were tried on the tough cases, which made them turn purple. Then came the songs about hallucinating Purple People Eaters. SO why isn't Thorazine sold over the counter? Thank your Looter Kleptocracy, buyer of 96% of all votes cast thanks to the Nixon Anti Libertarian Law!
You are an excellent argument for Thorazine.
Trepanazine, in 230 grain doses.
That’s the wrong premise. In fact:
(1) Nobody should be permitted to just camp out in cities, on expensive real estate, in public areas, etc. If you do, you should get removed. If you do it repeatedly, you should go to jail and/or a mental institution if you are mentally ill. Libertarianism doesn’t mean you can just squat on other people’s land.
(2) Mentally ill people should get the treatment they need, and that may require institutionalization. Letting people rot in the gutter is unacceptable. Under Libertarianism, if you are not mentally competent, someone else becomes your guardian, and they become responsible both for your care and for your actions.
In any case, most people who are homeless are not mentally ill, they are drug addicted. That means they are mentally competent and legally responsible for their actions, and we should enforce the laws and impose penalties as written.
Like it or not, the natural right is not with the landowner. Millions of birds and animals squat every day. Only humans do not have that right.
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In libertarianism, it is.
Birds and animals do not have rights under a libertarian world view. A landowner can remove them or even eat them.
Millions of birds and animals squat every day. Only humans do not have that right.
When roof rats squat in my attic, I kill them.
You're comparing homeless people to pigeons and squirrels and rats and mice and cockroaches and deer and ants?
I dont think you're making the point you think you are.
hilarious.
Paleos: The homeless should be driven out of the city like the vermin that they are.
Also paleos: HOW DARE YOU COMPARE THE HOMELESS TO PESTS
JFree is the one who did that. Since reading comprehension is another of your weaknesses.
You are saying "like the vermin that they are", not us.
We think that legally competent adults should be held responsible for their actions and violations of law precisely because they are NOT animals.
I never realized people who followed the paleo diet were so militant. Well at least they’re focused on healthy eating, and achieving a trim physique.
You’re probably just being a jealous fatfuck.
Rights are a concept that apply to humans, not animals. When animals start respecting my rights then I'll talk.
This debate question is simply crap of the stupidest sort.
Sixty five years ago there were 559,000 beds in inpatient psychiatric facilities. Most of which were state funded and which therefore required some sort of legal commitment process to fill those beds. There were basically zero beds in either private, market, muni, or federal facilities. That was the only inpatient psychiatric care available.
Today there are roughly 30,000 (17,000 for the criminally insane) of the same type as then. There are maybe 55,000 in general/other hospitals but there's a big disconnect between those who can afford insurance/treatment and those who have a psychiatric problem while still holding down a steady job with better than average benefits. Add a few more in nursing homes.
It really doesn't surprise me that a libertarian debate has nothing to do with reality.
Nor is it a surprise that paleolibertarians bring their Rothbardian perspective to both crime and homelessness.
With homelessness, roust them all and just force them to go away somewhere out of eyesight.
With crime (x white collar crime), unleash the police to render punishment to the suspected - with 'liability' if the punished later prove they weren't guilty of something deserving punishment.
The paleos really do value order and conformity more than liberty.
Correct: that is the libertarian perspective. Of course, any private organization (individual, charity, etc.) is welcome to provide for the homeless.
That is not the libertarian perspective. I suggest you inform yourself better.
Correct: that is the libertarian perspective.
No, that is the asshole perspective.
The libertarian perspective is to recognize that every human being has dignity and self-worth, whether or not they are homeless.
....and if they refuse to honor YOUR dignity and self-worth?
That doesn't fit with Jeff's version of libertarianism.
The libertarian perspective is to recognize that every human being has dignity and self-worth, whether or not they are homeless.
"But if they set up a tent city on my lawn, I'll be the first to call the cops to have them removed elsewhere."
I recognize the dignity and self-worth of all human beings, including the homeless. That is WHY I want them to be held accountable when they violate the law or violate other people’s property rights. Holding people accountable for their actions is how we treat adults with dignity and self-worth. Having them face the consequences of their choices is how their lives can improve.
It is you, Chemjeff, who thinks of these people as less than human, as inferior, as not legally competent, as not responsible for their actions and choices. Yours is the “asshole perspective”, Chemjeff.
Assholes like you, Chemjeff, is why we have millions of people slowly rotting away in gutters, homeless encampments, and drug dens in the US.
That is not the libertarian perspective. I suggest you inform yourself better.
re crime/homelessness and Rothbard and paleoFrom rockwell.com in 2017 – from an article outlining a paleo/right-wing (and Marxist too) strategy written by Rothbard in 1992
4. Take Back the Streets: Crush Criminals. And by this I mean, of course, not “white collar criminals” or “inside traders” but violent street criminals – robbers, muggers, rapists, murderers. Cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment, subject of course to liability when they are in error.
5. Take Back the Streets: Get Rid of the Bums. Again: unleash the cops to clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares? Hopefully, they will disappear, that is, move from the ranks of the petted and cosseted bum class to the ranks of the productive members of society.
I have no idea what context Rockwell was talking about in 1992.
But he isn't talking about punishing people for being homeless, he is talking about punishing people who violate the law.
Of course JFree ignored the Hopefully, they will disappear, that is, move from the ranks of the petted and cosseted bum class to the ranks of the productive members of society. at the end.
Im not ignoring that at all. He only advocates 'they will disappear '. The other is just mere bullshit .
'Hopefully they will disappear ' combined with 'unleash the police' usually means finding mass graves in a few years
Shoving people into mass graves is your speciality, JFree.
Lew Rockwell is simply saying that bums will "disappear" in the sense that they will be forced to move to cheaper areas and work for a living.
He was talking about a right wing populist strategy to target the Pat Buchanan and David Duke wings of the GOP. Later called paleolibertarian.. Basically, the KKK plus tax cuts.
I don’t see anything wrong with trying to persuade right wingers to give up their views and recognize the benefits of live-and-let-live.
Of course, all hope is lost trying to persuade totalitarian left wingers like you of the benefits of liberty and personal responsibility.
Thorazine and similar meds made most of that difference. Robert DeRopp wrote with anxious concern about the alarming levels of mental illness in America in 1957. The policy of stuffing the victims into both Houses of Congress has yet to show any beneficial results.
It must be decades of science training that makes me point out proximate and ultimate causes here.
The real cause is the decline, almost to death, of the family.
that and the education that increasingly for college graduates renders many unsuitable to hold down a minimum-wage job.
I won't go into it, that would accomplish nothing but at least get government less involved and bring back the religious and charitable orgainziations that government crowded out. I always think of this when homelessness comes up :
Mar 19, 2012 —NY's Bloomberg outlaws food donations to homeless shelters because the city can't assess their salt, fat and fiber content
This is self righteous horseshit. I've known people whose kids became diagnosed as schizo or paranoid or bipolar or some such. Mostly that was an adult diagnosis.
In every case, those parents went to financial and personal extremes. You want to blame the families of the homeless for not trying. When that is not remotely a 'cause' of the failure.
The failure is just inevitable. Deal with THAT reality.
We deal with that reality by restricting the movements of people who repeatedly violate the law.
This can be done by the family assuming guardianship over their adult mentally ill children and keeping them at home, or it can be done by the state assuming guardianship and institutionalizing them.
Letting the mentally ill roam the streets and harm themselves and others is not an option.
Your and Jeff's takes on this are so epically dumb even I am calling you 2 out.
You are so right. The correct libertarian solution is to violate the rights of the homeless.
Their rights supercede everybody else's...why?
Really? Which "rights" are being violated? Nobody has a right to camp on the sidewalk, or to squat on private property, or to defecate in the street, or to engage in open air drug transactions.
Socialists want to control everything. They would rather you starve than be fed from non government approved or supplied sources.
Prison is a welfare system. As perlmonger says perfectly...
“Don’t Lock Up People Who Haven’t Committed a Crime”
Well, that won’t be a difficult bar to get over.
Most of the homeless is going to steal. When they do it's time to put them in the Prison welfare system until they can support themselves without stealing.
The very BS that 'poor' unpaid debts wasn't a reason to jail people is the very foundation to our ?free? pony THEFT society.
That isn’t happening. We’re not helping them, we’re enabling them. Which isn’t good.
Mike Riggs has blood on his hands for pushing this harm reduction bullshit for years here at Reason, and his ideas have caused the deaths of thousands of people from overdoses and misery on the street.
His ideas were taken seriously and fully implemented by nearly every blue city on the west coast and we now live with the consequences.
If you wanted a real debate, I would have pitted Michael Shellenberger against Riggs, because Shellenberger is a former Soros NGO booster who woke the fuck up and saw the light. That would have been an interesting debate.
"Harm reduction" doesn't mean "zero harm". Yes, people sadly die from drug overdoses using needle exchanges. Harm reduction doesn't create utopia. It just *reduces harm*.
I also question how much Mike Riggs is to blame for the problems in "every blue city".
Harm reduction doesn’t create utopia. It just *reduces harm*.
It hasn't even done that, based on the results.
After a couple of decades of doing the same thing while expecting a different result, they don't get to call them "unintended" consequences any longer.
Those "harm reduction" policies don't actually reduce harm; they subsidize drug abuse and homelessness and as a consequence increase harm.
"Those “harm reduction” policies don’t actually reduce harm;"
Clean needles and unadulterated drugs do reduce harm. They may not help you with your need to feel you're the victim in all this, but that's on you.
No, they do not. They perpetuate and aggravate drug addiction.
"They perpetuate and aggravate drug addiction."
Dirty needles and adulterated drugs are worse. There are drug addicts who lead a long, productive lives. If you're drug addict and you also contract hepatitis, for example, your life is only going to get more difficult.
Yes, a few. And they can afford to buy their own needles.
Drug users won't reliably use needle exchanges, so you're just delaying any infection they get, while encouraging continued drug use. That is the wrong policy.
So the right policy is quicker infections? I don't think you've thought this through.
The right policy is for the government not to subsidize drug use.
The right policy is for the government to arrest people who violate the law and force them into drug treatment if they are drug addicted.
That will save lives.
The policies you embrace kill people.
"The right policy is for the government to arrest people who violate the law and force them into drug treatment if they are drug addicted."
I don't have much faith in arresting people and forcing them into drug treatment. Giving them the option to enter treatment voluntarily sounds good. Until then, providing them with clean needles and unadulterated drugs is the best we can do. Clean needles help to stop the spread of disease, and pure drugs prevent organ damage and other problems. Drug treatments, forced or otherwise, will require at least clean needles and clean drugs or their substitutes.
Fine, they can rot in their cells without drug treatment if they prefer. But we don't supply prisoners with free drugs and needles.
They are getting locked up for breaking the law, not for drug use.
"Fine, they can rot in their cells without drug treatment if they prefer."
Why the pretense of wanting to prevent harm? Clearly you just want to punish this people and inflict suffering on them. All that crap about reducing harm is just a pose.
Have you ever taken an online authoritarian personality test? My guess is you'd pass with flying colors.
Correct: if they break the law, I want them punished the same way I would be punished if I broke the same law.
I oppose harm reduction policies.
No, have you? You should, because you are.
Wanting equality under the law does not make me an authoritarian.
Baltimore has been losing population for decades and has lots of row houses that could be fixed up as housing. Most people who live there simply don’t give a shit, so I suggest we send all the homeless people there. Nobody would notice and the city might even improve.
Go ahead, lock the whack job up and throw away the keys for all I care. But the Republican soft machine will find a way to spring the Don if it has to go all the way to the Supreme Dong!
"But there is low-hanging fruit. Allow developers to build more housing to drive down prices. "
There is even lower hanging fruit: convert office space to living space.
"America’s office glut has been decades in the making, real-estate investors, brokers and analysts say. U.S. developers built too many office towers, lured by federal tax breaks, low interest rates and inflated demand from unprofitable startups. At the same time, landlords largely failed to tear down or convert old, mostly vacant buildings to other uses.
As a result, the country has too many offices and too few companies willing to pay for space in them. The rise of remote work during the pandemic aggravated a problem that was already emerging, analysts say.
The office surplus is primarily an American issue. About 19% of U.S. office space was vacant in the second quarter, compared with 14% in the Asia-Pacific region and 7% in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, according to brokerage JLL. Analysts expect that share to grow as more leases expire and more companies cut down on their real estate."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-office-glut-started-decades-before-pandemic-11661210031
It’s way too complicated and expensive to convert most office buildings into apartments, and those that are usually are for luxury condos, which cover the cost of renovations-affordable apartments don’t even come close.
Why? Plumbing and electrical separation issues? (I'm asking because I really don't know.) It seems like communal access to those things might make generating a large scale homeless shelter more plausible, though it would probably be a dystopian nightmare that made Cabrini Green look like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.
If you kept everything communal (not necessarily ideal, but let’s roll with it), the electrical and plumbing aspects would be relatively easy hurdles. Most modern office buildings have no operable windows so pretty much the entire facade of the building has to be redone.
For the want of a window a home was lost.
I see no reason to give the tenants of the Hobo Projects the ability to throw things from high places...
"It’s way too complicated and expensive to convert most office buildings into apartments,"
Maybe so, but the alternative, converting the city streets to comfortably accommodate the homeless, is not an option.
It doesnt matter if you are "unhoused" (lol) or not, it doesnt matter if you are strung out on crack or not, it doesnt matter if you are batshit crazy or not.
If I have to pay for public sidewalks and city parks, then YOU aren't allowed to lie around smoking crack, pooping all over the place, putting up tents, and rnadomly screaming at passersby or throwing trash all over the place.
Homeless or not. Crazy or not. Goodbye.
(the answer to this admittedly grey-area condundrum for libertarians is that all the sidewalks and city parks and other "public" spaces should be private.)
Shooing them away doesn't fix the problem. It just moves it.
it fixes the problem, it really does. Go visit Indianapolis and tell me they are doing it wrong compared to SF
I suppose it all comes down to what a given community wants to live with. Those high minded voters from the Bay Area will signal their virtue on their ballots, and then return to their gated enclaves in the hills and not deal with the consequences.
It's just going to have to keep getting worse; as far as most cities are concerned, they are already lost. Can't wait to see what the new mayor of Chicago does toward this end. I expect he will repay his primary benefactors by shutting down the schools and keeping every single teacher and school administrator on the payroll.
Here in CA, the vast majority of communities have decided they want to live with Democrat incumbents, the very sewer trouts that caused the crisis with their toddler-like view of the world (“no human being is illegal”, “sidewalks are public property you know”, etc).
Unfortunately for our society that refuses to take anything seriously, the only solution involves a massive dose of tough love:
1. Cut off the free shit
2. Enforce vagrancy laws, which includes shit-canning judges that consider getting locked up for vagrancy “cruel and unusual punishment”.
I dunno, the tech bro that got stabbed in SF recently wasn't in a particularly shitty part of town. Maybe they'll wake up now.
Oh come now. It fixes the problem *for Woodchipper*. That's all that really matters, right?
None of you live in any of these places where junkie vagrants have gotten out of control with violence, trash, needles, public squatting and defecation everywhere.
Why are homeless sacred cows to you? If I went around town acting like that i'd get arrested, fined, kicked out. Why does being "homeless" magically make them special and now this is ok?
Hell, they can assault people and suffer no repurcussions.
Because public drug use and outdoor defecation is too vital.
Jeff's altruism is awfully generous to the people it is killing slowly.
They're not "sacred cows". They are not vermin either. They are people. sarcasmic is right: shooing them out of town doesn't solve the problem. It only removes the problem from view. Which is ultimately the only thing that matters to the paleos around here, who don't give one single solitary shit about the homeless people, because they value order and conformity more than liberty.
The standard libertarian solution to every social problem is "private charity". If there are not enough charitable resources to deal with the homeless problem in a given area, why is that? Not enough resources? Not enough people willing to help? Too many regulations preventing the charitable aid from making its way to those in need? That is what we ought to be discussing here. Not "how do we push the problem away so we don't have to look at it anymore".
Sorry but charity is not the issue either.
Big cities are spending 50k+ per year for ‘homeless services’. Free food is everwhere. Volunteers are constantly canvassing the streets offering services and hlep and programs for the “homeless”.
You could literally, with the SAME BUDGET THEY HAVE TODAY, offer every homeless person in San Francisco a payoff of $60k per year for 5 years to go move away and live somewhere affordable and it wouldnt work.
Why do you think that is
shooing them out of town doesn’t solve the problem.
Bleeding heart pollyanna kumbaya hippies always say this like it's axiomatic and yet... every place that "shoos" them out of town DOIES NOT have this problem and is a much cleaner safer city than the places that dont.
Why do you think that is?
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every place that “shoos” them out of town DOIES NOT have this problem
Well in part it depends on how you define "the problem".
If "the problem" is "there are some people who don't have housing that would like it", then shooing them out of town doesn't solve the problem.
If "the problem" is "I have to look at homeless people on the sidewalk", then yes, shooing them out of town does solve the problem.
If “the problem” is “there are some people who don’t have housing that would like it”, then shooing them out of town doesn’t solve the problem.
Except that is NOT what is behind the violent filthy vagrancy of urban sidewalks.
You seriously have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
So you tell us, what is "behind the violent filthy vagrancy of urban sidewalks"?
Outside of massive drug issues?
Yes, opposing people shitting in public is some weird thing and not a cornerstone of the most fundamental level of hygiene in humanity.
As long as jeff has his feelz validated, people dying on the street is nothing to worry about.
I find it curious, that in this discussion to date, you have made 6 comments, and four of them have been responses to me, and an additional one is where you mention me by name. It's almost as if your purpose here is to troll me.
Stop saying vapid shit that isn't rooted in reality and you won't get called out time after time, you fat moron.
I thought your purpose was to make asinine comments.
If it is not your purpose currently, you might want to make it that because it is your one gift.
YOUR bleeding heart CAN house them if you so choose.
There is nothing wrong with YOU offering welfare.
When you start pulling out Gov-Guns; you’re no better than any other criminal piece of sh*t.
send them to Mexico in exchange.
What the negative position (Riggs) fails to address is the large amount of “public” property that should be terminated with extreme prejudice, especially in cities. The homeless encampments are overwhelmingly forming on public property in high-density urban areas. This is not by random chance – homeless people choose big cities to stay homeless in for obvious reasons. You don’t see hopelessly addicted and insane people living in homeless encampments in national parks, for example. Along with ending the war on drugs, big cities should eliminate all “public” property by privatizing parks at the very least. Then it would not be unconstitutional for the property owners to evict them from their private property. Also, even when homeless people DO commit violent crimes against others, sometimes repeatedly while awaiting trials, they are never actually punished for those crimes or even incarcerated for them. There’s a reason why “catch and release” has become the epithet for big city systems. One more missing point from all this is that it is NOT illegal or unconstitutional to insist that homeless people avoid defecating on sidewalks and in parks and, although those aren't violent crimes, they certainly are enforceable ordinances by any rational city administration.
"This is not by random chance – homeless people choose big cities to stay homeless in for obvious reasons. "
One reason is that private property owners produce a surplus of food that they discard and the homeless are eager to exploit. Property owners should be responsible for the disposal of waste food so that others can't consume.
"to insist that homeless people avoid defecating on sidewalks"
If they don't eat, they don't shit.
As long as they don't have to pay the city for the trash service...fine.
But they do.
And they actually ARE paying for the service.
"And they actually ARE paying for the service."
Evidently they're not paying enough. The shit on the sidewalks is concrete evidence that the homeless continue to eat.
Seems like the issue is with the city's half-assed garbage collection.
Why do you hold the homeless to absolutely no standards? Do you believe they cannot be expected to act like, well, people?
"Seems like the issue is with the city’s half-assed garbage collection."
Yet people continue to produce the enormous amounts of waste despite the city's poor garbage collection.
"Do you believe they cannot be expected to act like, well, people?"
I expect them to try to live another day, just like all life on the planet, animal and plant alike. Survival comes first. Hygiene, cultivating a pleasant demeanor, the esteem of the community, all come much further down the line. Homeless people are reduced to the level of barbarity, how do you expect them to act? And say what you will of the real Barbarians, at least they had a warm dry place to rest their heads after a hard day's raping and pillaging.
So, no, you do not expect them to act like humans?
Why do you disrespect them so?
"So, no, you do not expect them to act like humans?"
I expect them to do what it takes to survive another day. Just as I wrote, like all life on the planet, humans included, homeless humans included too.
"Why do you disrespect them so?"
Don't follow you. What makes you think I disrespect them or anyone else? Because they want to survive? I don't see what you're driving at.
I asked why you will not hold them to the same standards you hold others to. You admitted you did not do so. Ergo, you do not respect them.
"I asked why you will not hold them to the same standards you hold others to. "
I realize their circumstances are different. Respect or lack of it has nothing to do with it. I do expect the homeless to act like humans. But not necessarily humans who live in homes. Humans, rather, who live in dire circumstances. I'm not clear on what you're trying to accomplish with your poorly thought out analysis of my thoughts and feelings.
Because they're two-legged plague rats.
Which circles back around to the Colosseum idea, and having Tigers and Lions around.
I wonder if the reason why sidewalk shitters aren’t arrested very often is because the enforcers don’t want to have the shit thrown at them?
“This is not by random chance – homeless people choose big cities to stay homeless in for obvious reasons. ”
It's because that's where the drugs are, yo. It's not a mystery.
We could undoubtedly arrange for delivery of large quantities of drugs to empty patches of BLM land in the middle of nowhere.
This is actually a good idea and would definitely go along way to solve homeless in urban zones. It really would.
Just make sure to let the wildland fire crews cut some huge fire breaks before hand.
"When Los Angeles began allowing the proliferation of street camps again in 2014, the city saw homeless deaths quadruple to five a day."
At this rate of death, the problem should be self-correcting. It's not like the homeless population is reproducing at a rate of 5 replacements per day.
That is both practical and hopeful.
I live North of the 45th parallel so not a big problem here; but when I do [rarely] see someone passed out against a building wall as I go through town, I call 911.
If you choose to allow it, they will come. And never leave.
But there is low-hanging fruit. Allow developers to build more housing to drive down prices.
housing supply has NOTHING to do with chronic homelessness. Only libtards who believe in econ-fairies can assert such nonsense with a straight face.
Average rent in Los Angeles for a small apartment? Two and a half grand a month.
That has nothing to do with the homeless situation in Los Angeles.
They should build more housing.
Any ideas of how many to make the expense remotely feasible? Let's say they build 10,000 housing units. Would prices go down or would people who want to live in LA but live elsewhere decide to flood into LA?
you cant use reason with pollyanna libs. They just have no ability to think things through rationally.
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You could subsidize that to 200 a month and it wouldn’t solve the problem of CHRONIC homelessness.
Because the problem with much of the “homeless” problem is not that they can’t afford a place to live.
There are probably as many causes of homelessness as there are homeless. Everybody has a different story. I suspect a common thread though is not being able to afford accommodation. I suspect the number of homeless who have enough dough to come up with two and a half grand a month for the landlord are vanishingly few in number.
I disagree with you. The individual stories are irrelevant. The vast majority of homeless people who constitute “the problem” are drug addicted or insane or both. It has nothing to do with the price of housing. There are plenty of free shelters but they cannot tolerate them and leave them if they are carried there. They tend to destroy any shelters they live in for very long and attack each other and steal each other’s welfare checks while there. If there were simple solutions that weren’t unconstitutional, they would have worked by now. You either round them up and put them into internment camps, dump drugs and food inside and let them die or kill each other; or you let them live in tents and cardboard boxes in public spaces and let your cities die a faster death than they already are. Since I don't live in a big city, I don't care much which they choose.
The individual stories are irrelevant.
They are very much relevant, if you want to regard them as individual people and not just as "a problem".
" I don’t care much which they choose."
I notice that doesn't stop you from passing judgement on them.
"you let them live in tents and cardboard boxes in public spaces and let your cities die a faster death than they already are"
I see homelessness as a symptom rather than a cause of dying cities. The homeless are among the weakest, most marginal people in society. They are more caused against than causing, to paraphrase Shakespeare.
Indeed: the cause of cities dying AND people suffering in homelessness and despair is people like you.
And that is why the only way to address homelessness is for the homeless themselves to do it. That means creating the economic incentives for them to do something about it. And that means not permitting them to camp out for free on prime real estate.
Well, so they need to move somewhere where rents aren't that high and where they can get a job.
"Well, so they need to move somewhere where rents aren’t that high and where they can get a job."
They don't need to move. Clearly, they've chosen homelessness over the option of moving.
"That means creating the economic incentives for them to do something about it. And that means not permitting them to camp out for free on prime real estate."
I don't have as much faith in these economic incentives as you do. And I think the homeless will always be a burden, whether it's camping out, prisons, or internment camps.
That's because we tolerate them camping out on prime real estate and don't enforce our laws against them, laws everybody else has to obey.
I'm not suggesting locking people up for being homeless. They can be homeless on BLM land if they like.
I'm saying that we should enforce the laws against trespassing, littering camping on sidewalks, defecating on the sidewalk, etc. That is, we should hold them to the same standards of not being a nuisance to others as everybody else.
"I’m saying that we should enforce the laws against trespassing, littering camping on sidewalks, defecating on the sidewalk, etc. That is, we should hold them to the same standards of not being a nuisance to others as everybody else."
As I say. All symptomatic. The root causes lie elsewhere. If you fail to address them, everything you do will be a waste of time and effort. You're really quite the statist. If you don't work for the government, you may have missed your calling.
It is you who wants the government to "address root causes." That makes you a progressive and a statist.
I simply want people to be removed and punished for misconduct like sleeping and defecating on city sidewalks. Beyond that, I think addressing the root causes of their problems is the job of the individual and of charities. That makes me a classical liberal.
The issue is one of literate and numerate city council leftists/Maoists on drug cartel payroll. And now they’re in congress and MIC.
I think anyone who uses the roads and pavements should have to pay for the space they use up.
That includes drivers, pedestrians and the homeless.
And defacating on the streets should be illegal. And so should emitting exhaust fumes which ruin the city's air quality. And so should driving noisy cars.
Public parks should be sold off, and all development restrictions such as minimum lot sizes, zoning, etc. Should be eliminated.
That way, homelessness would provide a cheaper and legal alternative to housing, and it would not harm others because they would be paying for the space they use, and they would not be allowed to poo on the streets, threaten people, be loud, etc.
Ideally, the government would sell off the roads and parks to the highest bidder. But that will never happen.
We rescue animals . You can’t enter a legal contract if you mentally ill . But if your insane you can make the decision to live like a animal under a bridge . Yes they should be institutionalized in a well funded humane manner. The ones that can be rehabilitated should be . The one that can’t live on their own should be cared for . Again we do that for animals.
Lots of animal shelters are horrendous at treating the animals in any kind of humane way. Not sure that’s a great example.
No, “we” don’t – there is nothing in the Constitution that forbids rounding up stray animals in need of care; whether there is anything in the Constitution that forbids cities from rounding up people who have violated no laws and confining them is the question. There are several decisions at the highest levels that, rightly or wrongly, forbid cities from doing so. Although I have little sympathy for big city governments, outlawing potential responses without eliminating the causes that have nothing to do with city mismanagement seems unfair to me. If the cities cannot forbid homeless people from living on the public sidewalks and in public parks then the problem lies with Constitutional enforcement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pftf_EmPjMA
This makes me happy.
"Hong Kong is one of the wealthiest cities in Asia, yet you’ll find hundreds of thousands of people living in what the government calls “inadequate housing” — which for some means tiny wire cages.
An extended housing crisis has put the possibility of purchasing a home out of the reach of many — and has made the cage home a reality for Hong Kong’s poorest. Incredibly, the 16-square-foot cages rent for around $170-$190 USD, which if calculated by cost per square foot makes them more expensive than the most posh apartments in Hong Kong.
Building after building, floor after floor – rooms with up to 30 cages each populate the poorest areas of the city. The United Nations calls the squalid conditions of cage homes “an insult to human dignity.”
"Some places are expensive to live in. news at 11"
liberals reaction: "Anyone should be allowed to live for free in the most expensive places on earth! It's a hUmAN rIGhT!!!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVL38_qnxzQ
If you listen to this news report, at 2:53 the newsman explains that the city opened a "new 100 bed community cabin site" a few months ago funded by an 8.3 MILLION DOLLAR grant from the state.
Good lord, California. You fucking idiots spent 83K per homeless person in Oakland to give them a 'cabin bed' in one of the most expensive real estate areas on earth. This is sheer lunacy. Send them packing, it's the only sane approach.
That's better than LA is doing at a reported $1M per unit.
This. Even *if* one accepts the premise that "housing is a human right", that doesn't mean housing in bloody San Francisco or New York or Los Angeles or Seattle or any of these other ridiculously expensive places is a human right. I couldn't afford to live in San Francisco. I solve this problem by not living in San Francisco.
If housing is a human right, then you have to accept that you might be housed in a giant arcology in the middle of nowhere Nebraska.
it's a red herring anyway. These people are not homeless because housing is expensive in the local area.
That only assumes that municipalities and states have the right to deport American citizens from their own territory and force them into another state where they will be de facto imprisoned.
Another approach would be for the feds (and it would have to be the feds) to ‘mandate’ that x% of their housing stock or land be ‘set aside’ for the community to actually take care of their own mentally ill, homeless, etc. The details would be a fucking monster. But the means would be quite libertarian – NO ZERO NONE federal subsidies for either mortgage loans or property taxes or muni/state bonds absent some provision by the states to fix the problems themselves.
The basic principle being that states/cities should not be subsidized by the federal government to beggar their neighbors. That was the core principle behind moving mental health stuff from state level to muni or community level. It didn’t happen because there were no teeth in that – only whiny begs for federal money to make it happen much more expensively.
Another approach would be for the feds (and it would have to be the feds) to ‘mandate’ that x% of their housing stock or land be ‘set aside’ for the community to actually take care of their own mentally ill, homeless, etc.
Jesus christ, it never ends with you people does it
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What never ends is your ilk's continual sucking on a federal teat. How the fuck do you think a mortgage on YOUR house can be repackaged and sold to a pension fund in Norway so that the local bank can issue yet more mortgage loans to everyone else in your neighborhood to drive up house prices?
lol yeah that's the problem causing hordes of junkie homeless tent-squatters pooping all over downtown SF and breaking into every parked car in sight.
"yeah that’s the problem "
I think it's part of the problem. Americans have been convinced over the past few decades to think of houses as investment vehicles and ATM machines. The idea of houses being merely homes has been pushed to the side.
Well, you don't have to earn a living. The government will subsidize your worthless existence with welfare checks. Rights without responsibilities - that's the problem. You have a right to squat on a public sidewalk or park, but you don't have to do anything to justify your existence. That's how liberty dies.
"Rights without responsibilities"
Not true. Welfare recipients are responsible for submitting mountains of paper work and documentation. Society keeps the homeless engaged in an endless paper chase of red tape rather than doing anything productive, and the homeless repay the favor by giving our bureaucrats something to do with their time. Now you want the homeless to justify their existence? Is that your idea of small government?
"...How the fuck do you think a mortgage on YOUR house can be repackaged and sold to a pension fund in Norway so that the local bank can issue yet more mortgage loans to everyone else in your neighborhood to drive up house prices?"
Pretty sure steaming piles of shit like this haver newsletters filled with insane rants like this, but I sure don't want it.
"“Anyone should be allowed to live for free in the most expensive places on earth! It’s a hUmAN rIGhT!!!”
It's only a human right to those born into families of the truly rich.
If you cannot afford to live somewhere, you need to go somewhere else.
You're in no position to determine what anyone needs to do. There are millions of Americans who are homeless or living in their cars. They are all individuals and have their own reasons for the choices they make.
Says the ilk that tells everyone else what to do but then tells us we're in no position to tell anyone else what to do.
I'm telling you you're in no position to determine the needs of others. And, tellingly, you're not disagreeing with me.
Fine. Give them nothing. Do not provide the "needs" that we are in no position to determine.
"Fine. Give them nothing. "
That's uncharitable, caring for the less fortunate. The homeless will do what it takes to survive whether we give or not. That's human nature. That's life.
"You’re in no position to determine what anyone needs to do..."
Asshole, I sure am.
Fuck off and die.
"You’re in no position to determine what anyone needs to do. There are millions of Americans who are homeless or living in their cars. They are all individuals and have their own reasons for the choices they make."
Again, you treat them as being more inept than 5 year olds. Do you really not see that?
Some people are more inept than 5 year olds.
That's the kind of country you are trying to turn the US into: a country where only the children of party functionaries and the intelligentsia succeed, no matter how corrupt or inept.
Libertarians are trying to return the US to the kind of country where everybody has opportunities.
I don't think there was ever a time in US history where the rich didn't have more opportunities than the poor. The rich have wealth and enjoy a culture of entitlement. They never have to worry about homelessness.
That is correct.
The rich don't "enjoy a culture of entitlement", they actually simply pay for the things they want. Entitlement means that you can't pay for something but you still think you deserve it anyway.
"Entitlement means that you can’t pay for something but you still think you deserve it anyway."
Not according to an online dictionary:
"
entitlement
noun
en·ti·tle·ment in-ˈtī-tᵊl-mənt
en-
Synonyms of entitlement
1
a
: the state or condition of being entitled : right
b
: a right to benefits specified especially by law or contract
2
: belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges
3
: a government program providing benefits to members of a specified group
also : funds supporting or distributed by such a program"
The rich simply have the most to gain from the system in place and the most to lose if there are any changes.
Yes, according to that very dictionary definition:
The rich don’t “enjoy a culture of entitlement”. They don't believe they are "deserving of certain privileges", they don't believe they have a "right to benefits", they simply buy what they want.
If you have money to pay for something, you don't need to obtain it by claiming rights or privileges.
the issue of homelessness is much more complex than most want to believe. yes, clearing the red tape to permit more buildings would help by driving the cost of housing down..... but housing cost is not the big problem for most homeless, and the ones it is for are not the ones anyone else is worried about.
and people don't camp in big cities just because liberals are bad... it is because that is where it is convenient for them to be. there are the crowds and traffic for pan handling, free access to water, soup kitchens and other services.... the homeless are not finding those resources in the sticks. (and yes.... the drug dealers too.)
perhaps a better question than "should we lock them all up," is appropriate. yeah, it might keep more of them from dying, but it really is the extreme sort of "for your own good," that you have to abandon any illusion of freedom to support. there is validity to the fact that they are in public spaces, but that argument gets weaker the more draconian the response to it is. we put people in jail for theft, we don't execute them.
the better question is "how do we change what we are doing?" personally, i think the solution is in a contributor to the problem.... the services.... they congregate in down town areas because of the soup kitchens and other services. maybe those charitable organizations start setting some rules. you eat at the soup kitchen, you must sleep in the shelter. you sleep in the shelter, no drugs allowed. something other than "take all the drugs you want, we will keep you alive to do it."
the services…. they congregate in down town areas because of the soup kitchens and other services
They congregate in the downtown because the rest of the city is zoned R1 (single family residential). And all the burbs. Those R1 areas will not - under ALL circumstances - let any of that sort of charity work happen there that might remotely draw in 'societal refuse'.
whatever reason you want to attribute it to.... they go where the free food is.
and where the drugs are
It seems the open air drug markets and lack of any semblance of consequences for bad actions are a bigger draw than food.
They will happily do heroin and not give a damn about eating.
the encampments are always... ALWAYS... near a soup kitchen or two. turns out you can be strung out for longer if you have been fed, and you can use all the money you made begging/stealing/etc on drugs if you got that kitchen there.
"the encampments are always… ALWAYS… near a soup kitchen or two..." he lied.
That's not even a fucking plausible lie. And they absolutely build tent cities in R1 neighborhoods.
Why should they?
If you're not inviting them into your backyard, you do not really have a legitimate criticism here.
I disagree. The problem is not that they congregate in downtown areas. The problem is what they do while congregating there. Are you actually saying that people who want to conduct business downtown or just stroll to where they’re going have to either try to ignore panhandlers or kill them in self-defense if they’re attacked? Or are you saying that we should just shrug and let the downtown areas die from the problem?
I mean, if we're willing to let that "Kill them in self-defense" thing happen, that's another possible solution.
But the places where this happens would bury someone who tried under the jail they won't put the lunatic attacker in.
This is one of those topics that always brings out the most ridiculous, head in the clouds, pollyana liberals with their bullshit every time. Literally no fucking idea about what's actually going on, zero understanding of the economics of the situation, and shallow worthless poorly thought out "solutions" that for some reason always seem to involve more communism from on high. Every damn time.
It's remarkable to behold, almost as if the topic itself has a mystical power to dumb down liberal brains even more than usual.
"what we need to do is to invest in the communities and provide jobs training. That will totally do the trick. oh oh oh wait. and we can provide a mobile shower truck for those homeless people who are TRYING SO HARD to get a job but they just cant get cleaned up for the interviews. yeah!"
"oooh, i know! Let's build tool sheds under the freeway for 200K a pop and give them to a small group of random junkies. Homelessness solved bro!"
"i got one, What we need is a community outreach program that can help them find clean needles to use! yeah, that'll stop this mess!"
(blue haired sociology majors with septum rings and BLM tattoos high five each other with satisfaction)
What planet to these fucking "homeless advocates" even live on?
I've heard this about India. Don't know if it's true but it's somewhat plausible. What's worse than shitting in the streets? Dying in the streets, that's what. When a dog, cow or rat dies, it will lie stinking in the street, and no Indian of a reasonably high caste won't touch it. That's a job for the untouchables.
Incidentally, in Indian music, the tabla (drum) players come from lower castes because to play the instrument, their hands are in constant contact with the skin of a dead animal.
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"Islam is not a religion of peace" won that debate. And in fact, 13 years later, I believe that one of those debaters has since changed their mind on that topic.
Whoa, look at the bot actually making a contribution, almost!