Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
Does Ukraine face an existential risk? Does it matter?
Ukraine's Liberal Democracy Deserves Our Aid
Affirmative: Cathy Young
The Biden administration announced a $2.2 billion aid package for Ukraine in February. It includes, among other things, longer-range bombs than the ones Ukraine has received until now.
In a sense, the question of whether the U.S. should be giving Ukraine more money is moot: Even among Republicans, pushed by circumstance into the more dovish position in this conflict, support for military aid remains strong. But does aid to Ukraine, broadly, make the world more free?
This question goes to a fundamental tension in the liberty movement. There is the impulse to adamantly oppose interventionism (particularly of an overtly military nature) as fundamentally connected to outsized government, and there is the impulse to support liberty not only in the United States but all over the world. The disastrous outcome of the war in Iraq, which initially had some support in the liberty camp, turned out to be a death knell for pro-liberty interventionism.
But Ukraine differs from Iraq in a number of key ways. No U.S. troops are directly involved in fighting. (Their most direct participation is training Ukrainian soldiers.) The indirect U.S. and NATO involvement is in response to foreign aggression against Ukraine. And while the cause of "democracy promotion" in Iraq always rested on dubious speculation about the country's potential to become a model democracy in the Middle East, Ukraine has already paid its dues as a would-be liberal democracy. Unless one buys into Kremlin narratives about the 2014 "U.S.-sponsored coup," which reduce mass protest to puppetry, it is clear Ukrainians have collectively cast their lot with liberty.
Obviously, this doesn't mean that Ukraine—which was the target of eight years of low-level warfare by Russia before full-scale war began—is a perfect liberal democracy. For that matter, most liberal democracies today are nowhere near "perfect" free societies. But the choice Ukraine made in 2014 was to join the (imperfectly) free world, even if some of the people who fought for its revolution were far-right nationalists.
What's happening in Ukraine right now is simple: An aggressive authoritarian state—one whose leadership, whether for ideological or opportunistic reasons, has been actively seeking to promote authoritarianism beyond its borders—is trying to crush an aspiring liberal democracy. Russia's "security interests" amount to the claim that it cannot be secure unless it can impose its diktat on its neighbors. And its claim of rescuing ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine from persecution is preposterous, considering that Russia and its proxy "insurgents" are the ones who have consistently put that population in danger.
Does it matter to liberty-loving Americans whether there is more liberty and human dignity around the world, or more authoritarianism and brutality? I would argue that it does. In a world made small by instant long-distance communication and shrinking travel time, the creep—or march—of illiberalism around the world affects us. That doesn't mean we should actively "export democracy." But when other countries are exporting autocracy and barbarism, we can step in at least to the extent of helping their victims. It is telling that so many opponents of military aid, even those who profess principled noninterventionism, so often end up recycling anti-Ukraine slanders (the neo-Nazi menace, for example) to undercut Ukraine's claim to sympathy. When it's just the facts, Ukraine looks eminently deserving.
Yes, other allies need to pitch in more. But we, too, need to give enough—and fast enough—to allow Ukraine a meaningful victory, not just an endless slog. And while we're at it, to send the strong message that nuclear blackmail doesn't work.
Spending Tax Dollars on Ukraine Increases U.S. Risks
Negative: William Ruger
The United States should not increase its funding to Ukraine. Doing so is unnecessary to meet our vital national interests, would require spending further taxpayer dollars disconnected from the purpose of just government, and could seriously harm our security.
America's national interests are minimally implicated by the war. The most serious threat posed is that the U.S. and Russia would find themselves in an escalatory spiral leading to a nuclear exchange. While the odds of that may seem low, risk is probability multiplied by consequences. We are talking about huge risks and thus should be cautious about supporting Ukraine in a way that could get the U.S. into such a spiral. Increased funding heightens that danger, especially if it helps Ukraine threaten Russian territory.
The increased risk might be justified if the stakes of the war were high. That is just not the case for the U.S., even if it is existential for Ukrainians. Outside of the nuclear realm, Russia is not much of a threat to us. We are a superpower and dwarf Russia economically and militarily. The U.S. enjoys a robust nuclear deterrent, which practically guarantees our territorial integrity. We also have powerful conventional capabilities, and our allies in Europe could alone balance Russian power. Russia has clearly shown its relative weakness, performing poorly on the battlefield and being unable to defeat a much smaller country on its doorstep. We don't need to worry about it marching across a more powerful Europe.
Right now, Ukraine's existence isn't at grave risk. But even if Russia could conquer its neighbor, we lived with and even won the Cold War when Ukraine was part of the much more powerful Soviet Union. For Russia, a victory would entail a high cost and the spoils would be a wrecked Ukraine. Forgive me if I don't accept the argument that Ukraine is fighting for our freedom, even as I am impressed by the bravery and fighting skill of its citizens.
That leaves three possible rationales for increasing our funding: that it is a reasonable cost to pay to bleed the Russians, that it would help support a valuable sovereignty norm, or that it could help a more liberal Ukraine to win back its territory.
The first isn't compelling because we'd be spending billions more of coerced taxpayer dollars to marginally harm a Russia that isn't a grand threat outside the nuclear realm, while increasing the risk of nuclear war. A strategy to bleed a rival in a proxy war isn't the worst approach, especially to turn around an unfavorable balance of power. But trends favor us, not Russia. Those who actually care about Ukrainians might also find this too cynical an argument since we'd be effectively bleeding Ukraine to undermine Russia in the process.
The second we could take more seriously if the U.S. actually upheld this norm consistently, or if we could entrust to the norm our future security. But is it worth the risks involved as opposed to relying primarily on our own hard power?
The third also fails for true liberals, because the proper role of a just state is to protect the rights of the members of its political community. It does so legitimately in foreign affairs when it secures and advances the national interests: our territorial integrity, the conditions of our economic prosperity, and our constitutional order. Trying to protect the rights of others, disconnected from what is required for our interests, is beyond the scope of what a just state entails.
This is especially bad for political justice when such actions significantly increase the risk that we will be dragged into a nuclear or conventional war while requiring greater taxation. Even assuming Ukraine is a paragon of liberalism (which it isn't), that isn't enough to warrant sending more American tax dollars overseas and increasing the risk to our vital interests.
Subscribers have access to Reason's whole May 2023 issue now. These debates and the rest of the issue will be released throughout the month for everyone else. Consider subscribing today!
- Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
- Debate: Artificial Intelligence Should Be Regulated
- Debate: Democracy Is the Worst Form of Government Except for All the Others
- Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
- Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
- Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
- Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
- Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
- Debate: Cats Are More Libertarian Than Dogs
- Debate: Make Housing Affordable by Abolishing Growth Boundaries, Not Ending Density Restrictions
- Debate: Bitcoin Is the Future of Free Exchange
- Debate: Be Optimistic About the World
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It does so legitimately in foreign affairs when it secures and advances the national interests:
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Scott Horton destroyed her…America is just a tool for Ms. Young to use as cannon fodder for old world issues….
Zelinsky is the intelligensia’s Trotksy…it is obvious
Sincerely hope Cathy Young gets decapitated
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I don’t disagree with ANYTHING Cathy said. And in fact, her attempt to morally justify American involvement in Ukraine is a ton more persuasive than William Ruger’s utilitarian argument. He should have done the easy thing and made the moral argument.
Again, Cathy is largely right on her analysis of the facts. It is her conclusion that is illogical and flawed. I completely agree that Russia is an asshole. I completely agree that, while imperfect, Ukraine has the right to self determination, and that it has as much claim to its border as any other nation. I completely agree that Russia is the aggressor here. Russia’s “Muh sphere of influence!” argument is not a moral justification. No one suddenly gets to invade a neighboring country because its government aligns with people they dislike.
All that said, that is not a moral justification for the US assisting Ukraine. If a libertarian would morally object to taking money from US Citizens to pay for the welfare of another American citizen, how could a libertarian POSSIBLY accept taking money away from a US Citizen to put a fucking missile in the hands of a random person in Ukraine? Ukrainians have the right to self determination, but they do not have the right to demand blood and treasure from others to defend their self determination.
It is not my job, and therefore not my country’s job to defend Ukrainians. And you are not a libertarian if you argue for any involuntary mechanism (such as government subsidies) that forces me to fund such a job.
That is why this constant drum beat of “Poor Ukraine” and “Russia’s the real victim” shit-flinging has become so boring. This isn’t about the evil of Russia (who is definitely evil), or the corruption of Ukraine (which is definitely corrupt, and a rotting influence on the highest levels of our country’s leadership- red and blue). It is not about cold war policy or whose propaganda is the most truthy. It is a very, very, very simple logical problem: Is it right to take money from people in one country to support others? No. Debate fucking closed.
This debate is like arguing with kids.
“Dad why can’t we stay at the all inclusive penthouse suite in Monaco for spring break?”
“Because we don’t have the money”
“Yeah but here are all the reasons it would be awesome, and why you would be a bad dad for not giving us that. Are you really going to argue with us that it would be BAD to sip champagne on the balcony as the sun rises above the crystal waters of the Mediterranean? That it would be BAD to don your ruby-encrusted slippers prior to bedding down in a bed filled with the down feathers of 800 virgin geese?”
“No, I am not arguing that stuff. I am saying we don’t have the money. So arguing about all that other shit is moot. Go do your homework.”
Bringing reason to an emotional / political argument? What were you thinking?
Racism?
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Ukraine formation was an outcome of war. Likewise your statement on self determination can also apply to a subset of a country such as Donbas can it not.
I think analysis is simple. US is not the determiner of any border except its own. The conflict resolution should be from neighbors but primarily the residents in Ukraine. But pro Ukraine forces are disallowing its own members from disagreeing. From shutting down churches to arresting those who do want to join Russia.
“Ukraine formation was an outcome of war. Likewise your statement on self determination can also apply to a subset of a country such as Donbas can it not.”
As I said, Ukraine “has as much claim to its border as any other nation”. Canada, UK, and the United States all sit on territory that was acquired through war and conquest. And each will have different reasons for or against allowing parts of those countries to secede. And the reasons the US is wrong to put its thumb on the scales of those internal deliberations are the same reasons it is wrong for Russia to do the same fucking thing. Their proximity to the region, and their history of forcibly occupying and resettling into the region does not change the fact that they are acting as an aggressor here.
The US AND the Russians AND the Ukrainian Government AND the Donbas (et al) Separatists (many of whom are living on property their fathers stole from others mere decades ago) are in the wrong here. You are not going to find a virtuous actor in this conflict any more than in Israeli-Pallistinian politics. I’m sure that for the people in the Ukraine, they need to figure out that nuance. I wish them luck, and believe it is the height of arrogance for us to make a judgement either way when we suffer no consequences for giving credence to one crime over another.
“But pro Ukraine forces are disallowing its own members from disagreeing. ”
I see this as incredibly week tea. This is what happens in an invasion, and believing it is somehow disqualifying would mean that the United States lost the right of self determination in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War, Spanish-American war, yada yada yada.
The idea that Russia running the place would somehow be better is laughable on its face. If the option were between a minority of Ukrainians living under Russia, or a majority of ethnic Russians living under Ukraine, I have. no doubt that the latter would (on balance) be more just. But what the fuck ever- the only reason we are forced to care is that our entire leadership is run by corrupt elitists struggling to keep open their lines of cash from oligarchs, so meh.
You sure use a lot of words to say “Meh.”
Jfc
So you’re just going to ignore the unconstitutional coup, secession in response to it, and brutal war Kiev has waged on ethnic Russian civilians for a decade…
That really doesn’t affect Overt’s argument one way or another, so why should he mention it? Arguments about the facts on the ground don’t matter. It’s not our conflict and we should stay out whether or not the Ukraine government is bad.
Yes, we should stay out of it for many reasons.
Lying about the facts at play helps the war mongers.
It’s ceding their false justification. Even if you go on to argue that their argument isn’t enough justification, you’ve already lost.
It’s like saying “climate change is an imminent existential threat, but we have to balance measures against it” – you’ve agreed that measures against it must be taken, and that’s all that matters. (Insert Churchill quote here)
Further, overt says Russia is evil. Nothing to back up his feelz on it, they’re just evil. That’s more ammo for the totalitarian globalists.
You can’t agree with the moral premise of an absolute clump of malicious cancer like Cathy Young and maintain any strength in practical opposition. It’s over. You’ve given up the field, now you’re just negotiating terms of surrender.
^^
If a libertarian would morally object to taking money from US Citizens to pay for the welfare of another American citizen, how could a libertarian POSSIBLY accept taking money away from a US Citizen to put a fucking missile in the hands of a random person in Ukraine? Ukrainians have the right to self determination, but they do not have the right to demand blood and treasure from others to defend their self determination.
I could nominally support at least providing some sort of aid in their defense if Zelensky wasn’t acting like such an entitled asshole about it. I get that he’s in a fight that, realistically speaking, he’d have gotten his shit pushed in by now if NATO wasn’t giving him Javelins, Stingers, and UAV intel/Hellfire support, not to mention Special Forces and CIA advisor assistance.
But the fact that he’s bossing us around to win his war for him is the most galling aspect of this. An administration with balls would have put this bitch on a leash a long time ago and told him he needed to act more humble if he didn’t want to find himself the victim of a tragic boating accident.
There are nuances to this debate which are being missed entirely. I’ll try to list just some of them, and not in any specific order of importance.
1. Ukraine is corrupt and there’s no accounting of where our aid money is actually going.
2. Aid is coming in the forms of weapons systems which the Ukrainians literally can’t make use of.
3. Aid is likely prolonging the war– not winning it (which is a no-shit neocon objective) with the vague idea that “we’ll defeat Russia” by drawing them ever deeper into a war of attrition. Ie, we are to the Soviets as Ukraine is to Vietnam.
4. There’s no end in sight. (to the neocon’s glee).
5. It takes Europe off the hook.
6. Since when are libertarians for no-strings-attached neverending aid?
Again, that’s just a small sampling of reasons that are just off the top of my head. This Ukraine war/US Involvement situation is a disaster for not only the US, but the West in general. And if you start looking into the deep foreign policy implications of it, the AID combined with the Sanctions has been a complete foreign policy disaster for us, possibly the greatest foreign policy disaster in my lifetime.
Utter nonsense. Ukraine used to be corrupt, but has made great strides in combatting corruption with a number of high profile prosecutions being brought right now. The weapons are being tracked very carefully and congressional delegations that recently went over there came back impressed with the level of compliance.
Ukrainians have shown themselves quite able to use every weapon system we’ve given them, even being very innovative with them in ways that our military is now studying.
The war is not one with no end in sight. Either the Ukrainians will continue to make progress with the coming offensive or they won’t and it will then become time to consider accepting the borders as they are, but as long as they can make progress to push toward the borders they should be given the chance to do so. As Gen Milley said, the war will end at the negotiating table, but when we get there is still in flux, but probably end of this year or sometime next year.
Europe is hardly off the hook. They’re providing billions in aid themselves. Some of the countries are providing far more than us in terms of their GDP.
why go abroad to find monsters to destroy? I don’t see Italian Americans wanting to support a revolution in southern Italy because of what the Piedmonts did 150 years ago to their ancestors. The obsession with Russia and Eastern Europe is unhealthy for America..our foreign policy elites need to not be fighting some old world grievance. Trotksy losing to Stalin is the issue for the neolibs and neocons (many are just former communists) .
Logic be damned. Thought be damned. We should not only increase support for Ukraine to 50% of US-GDP, but we should also begin to draft young American men and stuff them into Ukrainian uniforms and send them over to fight the evil Russkies. The printing presses, running at 10% overspeed, can keep all this floating – until it all breaks. We are extremely fortunate – even blessed – to have a foreign policy savant in the White House to lead us through what would otherwise be perilous times, and we should begin immediately to criminally charge, prosecute, and imprison those who do not support committing the existence of the United States as a nation to the guaranteeing of Ukraine’s borders. We should probably also charge and imprison those who have heard others criticize our support of Ukraine and did not report them to the local Stasi. And after all we can only secure either our borders or their borders – not both – and their borders are so much more important than ours. I do think it would benefit the country to replace SecDef Austin with George Soros and Gen. Mark Milley with Major General Stanley, with his musical back-up serving as the Joint Chiefs.
What could go wrong?
Yeah, and speaking of Ukraine. Your house could be incinerated soon. Brought to you by another Clinton/Bush Neo-con/Marxist construct resurrected by Biden.
Russia is remaining surprisingly calm, considering that Biden got caught blowing up the Russian pipeline from Russia to Germany. Strange, the good is made to seem bad and the bad made to seem good (diabolical disorientation). Putin is the espoused Christian here (probably why he’s turning a cheek, and the 1000 nukes pointed his way), but he is enforcing common sense Christian morality, and reason, rejects LGBT-QRST non-sense in the homeland and professes Christ. And, our America is ‘Satan’ here, i.e. embracing absurd immorality and creating wars. Putin is not a saint, but he’s being a good leader for his country. Can’t say the same for Biden.
Know the background history. Gorbachev and Reagan, (followed by Bush 1 and Clinton), had an agreement that if the Soviet Union dissipated, which it did in 1991, Nato would not expand (No need to without the Soviet Union to threaten Europe). Since then, the CIA and Globalists have been adding one ally to NATO, after another, all directed toward and surrounding Russia in a very aggressive and threatening way. We (the U.S.) keep re-breaking the agreement by fortifying Nato with hostile nations, then blame Putin for getting defensive. (I guess it worked with the plains Indians).
Ukraine and Russia have been entwined for a Millenium. It’s undisputed, that the last fair election in Ukraine was in 2010 resulting in Yanucovich ***, the most popular politician in the Ukraine, being easily elected. Although he moved Ukraine closer to the European Union, he refused to sign an “association agreement” with the EU in 2013 because he wanted to keep the Russian Trade agreements in place. This angered the Globalist Obama and his ilk, and in Feb 2014 they deposed Yanucovich in a coup paid for and planned by the U.S. Yanucovich was replaced by Ukrainian Nationalists, also known as Nazis’s. I attach a great article on the subject below **.
Following the coup, the Crimea’s population was upset by the coup, and they seceded by referendum of parliament from Ukraine and rejoined Russia in March 2014. Russia “invaded” (sent troops to) Crimea March 18, to protect the Crimeans that supported them, then Russia annexed it. And this is the boogey man the globalists want us to see as the evil event to justify their new war. See Timeline below.****
So, who are the good guy?? No-one! But here Russia seems better overall, than us, morally and culpably. I have pondered why Russia was so prominent in the Marian prophecies (Fatima). As much as an apostate Pope Francis is, he did finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart as Our Lady requested at Fatima in 1917. And things are moving fast now. “The good will suffer” She predicted. “Pray the Rosary’ she said. I think we should listen.
Speaking of agreements, Russia agreed to Ukrainian independence, twice, and did so in writing.
Russia is running a trade surplus..its currency is doing fine and it has little debt compared to the US and actually exports things.
We just print money to push proto marxist ideologies like “trans genderism” Russia defeated the bolshies..and they all seemed to have come here and infect our institutions didn’t they?
Russia is remaining surprisingly calm, considering that Biden got caught blowing up the Russian pipeline from Russia to Germany. Strange, the good is made to seem bad and the bad made to seem good (diabolical disorientation).
Believing in Supernatural bullshit will do that to you.
Putin is the espoused Christian here (probably why he’s turning a cheek, and the 1000 nukes pointed his way), but he is enforcing common sense Christian morality, and reason, rejects LGBT-QRST non-sense in the homeland and professes Christ.
Putin is “turning a cheek” by invading Ukraine? And you use the words “common sense,” “Christian morality,” and “reason” in the same sentence without irony or going insane? You’ve been chomping Communion Wafers made of spoiled grain and drinking Everclear for the wine! The only Blood and Body that becomes is when you hurl your guts out!
And, our America is ‘Satan’ here, i.e. embracing absurd immorality and creating wars. Putin is not a saint, but he’s being a good leader for his country. Can’t say the same for Biden..
And how did “Great Satan” America create the Russo-Ukrainian War? That’s all on your “good leader” Putin!
So, who are the good guy?? No-one! But here Russia seems better overall, than us, morally and culpably. I have pondered why Russia was so prominent in the Marian prophecies (Fatima). As much as an apostate Pope Francis is, he did finally consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart as Our Lady requested at Fatima in 1917. And things are moving fast now. “The good will suffer” She predicted. “Pray the Rosary’ she said. I think we should listen.
Playing with fucking paste beads and parroting a 19 minute prayer from some paradolic optical illusion won’t do a damn thing to stop The Russo-Ukrainian War, but a Makarov bullet in Putin’s basal ganglia lizard brain will!
Go fly your hat and habit, Sister!
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Is some U.S. politicians’ banking account getting so low that we have to put together another Ukraine spending package? Followed soon by delegations of said politicians traveling to Ukraine to pick up their “fair share”? There has been very little accountability for the money we have sent. We are paying the Ukrainian government officials’ pension payments for goodness sake. Enough is enough!
Let Zelinsky go on one of his money-demanding tours to another country.
“We also have powerful conventional capabilities”
“as opposed to relying primarily on our own hard power”
This is a guy totally unaware of the impact of democrat policies on the US military.
So the purpose of this debate shit is to expose fake libertarians like Cathy Young?
I like that they had to outsource the non-interventionism to an outside writer. The fact is that the purpose of our country is not to protect liberty outside of our borders.
If individuals want to volunteer and send their own donations, if private companies want to supply them with guns and ammunition, and if people wish to enlist in a foreign legion, let them do that. As individuals. Using the coercive power of our government to force all Americans to subsidize an overseas conflict with no significant American security interest is base authoritarianism.
Well stated!
I feel bad for the Ukrainians, absolutely. I was working with a bunch of them for a software company when the invasion happened. But we can’t afford this shit. We can’t afford the shit we’re trying to do here! It’s definitely a damned shame that Trump didn’t get reelected and this happened, but we’re fuckin’ skint here.
“he purpose of our country is not to protect liberty outside of our borders.”
We hold these truths to be self evident, that ALL men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.
Notice that the country and US citizenship are not mentioned anywhere in that sentence. Same in fact is true of the Bill of Rights in our constitution.
Not to mention that a democracy like ours is just safer if there are more democracies in the world. Have you played Risk? Do you know how it works if it’s just American democracy surrounded by a bunch of dictatorships that all see our freedom as a threat to their rule if they’re people become aware of it?
You jokers understand absolutely nothing about this nation’s foundational creed. Your libertarianism is just selfish parochialism.
Thanks, shrike!
Dont go abroad to find monsters to slay. The US is broke..and it doesn’t exist to fight old world greviencies. and “democracies” like the kind the neolibs advocate are really dictatorships (the elites) of “democracies.” How did WW1 turn out?
Libertarians for increased interventionism!
* (As long as we’re intervening to spite the country Democrats have been trained to hate since 2016.)
#StillWithHer
#WhatWouldHillaryDo?
She’d act in her own self interest.
#OneTrueLibertarian
ways. No U.S. troops are directly involved in fighting. (Their most direct participation is training Ukrainian soldiers.) The indirect U.S. and NATO involvement is in response to foreign aggression against Ukraine.
Hey, we’re just sending over military advisors, in response to foreign aggression! Our troops won’t be directly involved in the fighting. And if anything happens, it’s because THEY escalated things in the Gulf of Tonkin…i mean, shooting down drones over the Black Sea.
So Reason is now pro-war, child mutilation and censorship, gotta stick to those progressive leftist principles.
“What’s happening in Ukraine right now is simple: An aggressive authoritarian state—one whose leadership, whether for ideological or opportunistic reasons, has been actively seeking to promote authoritarianism beyond its borders—is trying to crush an aspiring liberal democracy.”
And by liberal democracy we mean a true multi-cultural, gender-fluid, progressive society with generous social welfare programs and woke institutions, right? Why else would all my liberal neighbors add Ukraine flags to their woke word salad yard signs?
Just imagine Cathy Young talking about South Vietnam. Would she even need to change any of the words in this argument?
What is the difference between arming the Ukraine now and arming Afghanistan in the 1980’s?
We could actually afford to arm Afghanistan in the 80’s.
Nothing.
And what’s the difference between this and South Vietnam in the early 60s? We’ve already had one “incident” of American assets destroyed by the Russians, threatening to escalate the conflict.
The Afghans were less corrupt and actually concerned about winning the war, not maintaining their status as a US puppet.
I really like this format. Taking both sides of an issue and applying the principles of libertarianism to each is a great way to explore an issue. Having two writers competing makes it even better.
I would recommend this as a regular feature on key issues of the day.
I think it exposes how libertarian thought can be adopted to rationalize any prior beliefs one has about a subject. Make half your argument libertarian then switch to rationalization at the end.
U.S. companies should sell Ukraine everything they want and Europe should pay the bill.
Cash-and-carry and voluntary charity are all I have ever supported for Ukraine or anyone else.
How much more can a country that is fucking broke give to another?
We do not owe Ukraine anything.
“How can we be broke? The printing presses still have ink!”
Hear! Hear!! Double the voltage to the presses. Let’em hum – let’em roar as they spit out an avalanche of pale green paper that really is a little too slick to do a good job of wiping with, but works well enough as kindling.
That being said…. I am not sure I spotted much in the way of “libertarian” in the pro-proxy war essay. I suppose anti-authoritarian government and defense against an aggressor are bog standard libertarian starting points, but I’m not sure those dots were ever really connected.
I would recommend making the libertarian angle quite explicit. This could really help refocus this publication from a partisan gotcha story machine into a principled intellectual resource.
Tough to find a libertarian angle for bombing civilians who seceded via referendum, nationalizing media and churches, outlawing opposition parties, and literally kidnapping people off the street to send to the front lines
It’s an emergency!
“Ukraine has already paid its dues as a would-be liberal democracy.”
What, so that’s the bar of the U.S. intervening to protect foreign nations? So, we’re supposed to care about Ukraine but not citizens of other countries that are under heavy subjugation like China or Afghanistan? I just want to see some consistency from Ukraine supporters.
“For that matter, most liberal democracies today are nowhere near “perfect” free societies.”
Well, if we’re going by that standard, Ukraine like most other “perfect free societies” deserve a coup.
“What’s happening in Ukraine right now is simple:”
Preamble for every decision to engage in interventionism, anywhere in the world.
“Does it matter to liberty-loving Americans whether there is more liberty and human dignity around the world, or more authoritarianism and brutality? I would argue that it does.”
And there’s it’s justification.
My proposal: Take some of those billions that are being spent on a proxy war and secure our schools.
Oooh! And *our* borders?! I dunno, just a thought…
Look, we are only into this thing for like a hundred billion so far. That isn’t enough cash to make much difference….
(And it is quite a bit more than the Russian annual military budget.)
No taxpayer funds to Ukraine. But at the same time, legalize and allow people to voluntarily send donations to Ukraine. Hell, legalize private arms shipments to Ukraine.
I have several friends from Ukraine, and one of them is actively smuggling weapons into his homeland. Good for him!
Hell, legalize private arms shipments to Ukraine.
You’re not gonna do it with AK-47s.
By “private arms sales” that would probably require a US defense contractor to “sell” M1 tanks, air defense systems, guided missile systems, planes and artillery.
The problems with that are as follows:
1. It’s probably illegal for a US defense contractor to sell these systems to a foreign actor.
2. The Ukrainians can’t realistically use them.
3. They can’t afford them, which is why they need aid.
My thoughts exactly!
The U.S. Government is Constitutionally only committed to the common defense of the U.S., but U.S. Citizens should be free to send arms to anyone who is not hostile to the U.S.
>>Even among Republicans … support for military aid remains strong.
graft agents are graft agents regardless of association.
It is great for defense contractors, and their consultants [aka retired general officers].
Grahamnesty and Cocaine Mitch front of the line.
I think I already responded to this “debate” several weeks ago. It’s not clear to me why it is being re-posted at this point without the previous comments.
This is where we are in the world.
The Czar and Trotsky..the two reasons neocons are obsessed with Russia. Let’s be honest at least neolibs and neocons have been driving Americans into stupid wars for over 20 years now…no America does not exist to make the world safe for “democracy” or to right wrongs. JC…I don’t see Italian Americans screaming to invade Italy to avenge what the Piedmonts did to their ancestors. Russian tanks are not crossing the Oder anytime soon. And rural white protestants and catholics are not going to enlist to fight and die for some war between two corrupt eastern european states.
No, it is because Russia is interested in you, even if you aren’t interested in Russia. This was true in the Soviet era and it is true now.
We don’t have to change the whole world in our own image to be aware of foreign threats and be ready to address them with reciprocal opposing force.
And we don’t have to spend tax dollars for private Citizens to voluntarily send assistance to the people of Ukraine.
There is a third option for American involvement that should be the libertarian supported angle, the US could and should use it’s influence to manage and broker a peace. Might not work with these belligerents but it’s an activity that the US could involve itself in without antagonizing a nuclear power or spending gobs of out tax money on.
I found Ruger’s arguments much more persuasive, but Young’s analysis is much better than what I’ve typically seen to support the seemingly endless escalation of our support for Ukraine and confrontation with Russia. Ultimately, I would prefer to see our support for Ukraine be integrated into a diplomatic strategy that seeks an end to the fighting and places a higher value on a stable peace than it does on Ukraine controlling some eastern provinces composed mostly of ethnic Russians. I’m not implying that Russia ever had a right to invade, just that restoring Ukraine’s borders to exactly what they were before the Russian invasion should not be our top priority.
Ukraine is not a Liberal Democracy.
Entire article refuted right there.
Ding ding ding ^^^ You win
Historians have long wondered how things might have been different if Europe had responded militarily when Hitler invaded the Rhineland.
Now we’ve seen an actual demonstration of that counterfactual. Europe and US armed the Ukraine against the aggression and hit Russia with sanctions and Russia has not only been stopped but greatly weakened. To believe that’s been a waste of money is to be deeply naive about Putin’s ultimate ambitions and what he would have done next.
American power in the world is based not just on our military strength but on the fact that we support other peoples in their aspirations for freedom and democracy as well. That leads to reinforcing alliances and a world order that is stable and beneficial for Democracy and commerce. America standing alone is an America that is far weaker as strength in war and otherwise is about alliances and diplomacy and economics and productive capacity and so much more than just military might. Those who don’t understand that will destroy this country’s power trying to put America first.
GFY, Shrike!
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The U.S. government does not have any money to send to Ukraine in the form of weapons or financial assistance. WE ARE BROKE! The side arguing for assistance, aside from any moral issues, should show where the money is coming from. Raise taxes?, borrow it? There must be a multitude of foreign causes we could and, maybe, should support.
The only moral and, fiscally sane way, to give support is to form a charity and an all voluntary mercenary army led by those most vocal. They should lead the charge! Yes, they might be old and somewhat infirm, but if they can pull a trigger and drive a tank, then kill away. Put your own life and funds where your mouth is.
The U.S. is looking at 100 percent of GDP.
Just thought I’d mention that the U.S. Pentagon is incapable of financial audit. No money trail exists.
Just like overt
No he didn’t. Come on Nardz.
Even if Russia doesn’t “win it” (ie, achieve their objective of annexing Eastern Ukraine) it will be devastating to the Ukrainian people in terms of loss of life.
This is what Ukraine boosters don’t understand. At least the normies on the street. The Neocons running the Biden admin foreign policy team do understand it, they just don’t care.
Yup. we’re basically making sure Ukraine gets completely destroyed. They might have lost some territory, but still had a somewhat functioning country. Now they will probably still lose territory and will have many more lives lost and infrastructure destroyed.
“Overt 4 hours ago (edited)
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I don’t disagree with ANYTHING Cathy said”
“It is her conclusion that is illogical and flawed.”
He only agreed with her on the facts. You may not like that, you’ve even disagreed with the facts up thread, but he didn’t agree with her position.