By Shooting Down Balloon, the Expensive, Useless F-22 Fighter Finally Won a Dogfight
After $67 billion and more than 20 years, the F-22 finally won a dogfight against an unarmed, nearly immobile opponent.

When it officially entered military service in 2005, the U.S. Air Force hailed the F-22 Raptor as an "exponential leap in warfighting capabilities."
American taxpayers ultimately paid $67 billion to buy 187 of the planes, which had been in development since 1986 "to project air dominance, rapidly and at great distances" with technical capabilities that "cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter aircraft."
On Saturday, the F-22 scored its first-ever victory against an airborne adversary when it shot down…a balloon.
There may not be a better metaphor for the costly grandiosity of the American military than the use of a multi-million-dollar fighter jet to dispatch an unarmed, unmaneuverable opponent. But the fact that the F-22 had never won a dogfight before its decisive victory over what may or may not have been a Chinese spy balloon is a nice illustration of why the United States has the world's most expensive military by a massive margin.
In short, it's because the Pentagon buys lots of expensive toys that have no use.
The F-22 never had a clear purpose. When some Republicans in Congress tried to cut funding for the newfangled fighter in 1999 (back when Republicans sometimes did that sort of thing), a Brookings Institution report noted that American air superiority was already assured. Older fighters had dominated the skies during Desert Storm and the Kosovo conflict, and no other country was even close to closing the gap.
"The Air Force's intention to replace virtually its entire stock of current fighters with next-generation airplanes costing more than twice as much reflects Cold War habits," wrote Michael E. O'Hanlon in the Brookings report. "Given the unlikelihood of other nations acquiring such advanced aircraft, and the fact that major advances in capabilities can be achieved by improving munitions and sensors on existing U.S. fighters, these planes are unnecessary in the numbers now proposed."
The next few decades bore out the logic behind that warning. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq did not require air-to-air combat against advanced opponents. By 2004, a year before the F-22 officially entered combat service, the Pentagon scaled back its plans to purchase over 300 of them. Two years after that, the Government Accountability Office reported that the Air Force had not demonstrated "the need or value" of buying additional F-22. The same report somewhat hilariously notes that the fighter was designed "to combat threats from the Soviet Union," which of course had been gone for a decade and a half.
In 2008, then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates bluntly stated that the F-22 had no place in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
"The purpose of the F-22 was to ensure the Joint force could reasonably ensure air superiority in these wars. Trying to make a connection between this and a terrorist plotting an attack from a remote cave in Afghanistan is irresponsible at best," wrote Maj. Mike Benetez, an Air Force combat pilot, in a 2016 post for War on the Rocks. He summed up the F-22 as being "based off 1980s requirements, built with 1990s technology, and designed to counter dated threats with dated techniques."
The Pentagon is always fighting the last war and American taxpayers were kept on the hook for the F-22 far longer than they should have been. Now, we're paying for its replacement—the much-maligned F-35 fighter—despite major advances in drone technology that are likely to make fighter jets even more obsolete in the coming decades than they've been for the past two.
But hey, maybe someday the F-35 will be called upon to protect the country from a serious threat. Like a kite or a hang glider.
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Another keyboard warrior who knows more than his betters.
He seems to be the only one at Reason who does not have "editor" somewhere in his job title.
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This is preparing for the next wars. The USA can't wait for another Pearl Harbor to start building aircraft that it needed yesterday.
How did a balloon slowly drifting at 60,000 feet take the country by surprise and result in an international incident?
Was Joe sleeping? Is everyone working from home in their pyjamas?
I mean, shit on the F35 all you want and I'm not going to object, but the F22 is legit untouchable.
+100
This article seems to be a prime example of the fallacy of preparing to fight the last war.
Military procurement is already far too susceptible to that fallacy. We should not be criticizing efforts to look ahead rather than backwards.
Okay, I'll concede that there may be an argument that the F-22 was itself built for the last war (the Cold War) and was inappropriate for the Gulf conflicts. But it's also true that these kinds of needs go in cycles and we are back in a need for military postures a lot more like the Cold War than the Gulf conflicts. The F-22 is a right answer for our current needs.
In the event of a shooting war with China or Russia we will not be sad to have F-22s.
In fact, the F-22 could be a reason those wars don't happen.
fcking moron author. Criticizing procurement, priorities etc is fine, but arguing we shouldn't even have a 5th generation air superiority fighter is batshit insane.
There is a large body of water between the US and China. Same ocean exists between the US and Russia. Neither country has a carrier fleet that can threaten the United States with fighters. The F-22 is a wealth redistribution program for the MIC. A nation does not get $31,500,000,000,000 in debt accidentally. It takes a lot of nations building along with other forms of welfare.
And fuck Japan and Korea? Stick with the F-16 - which has a larger RCS than the F-18?
Japan & Korea ≠ United States
The US has interests in containing Chinese expansion.
Japan & Korea ≠ United States
The “interests” card was played in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Chumby, when it comes down to human rights for millions of oppressed muslims, vs the chance to get in some digs at America and our military, it looks like you come down on the side of showing off ur brilliance, and eff those Uighurs.
I love the liberal hypocrites, never seem to grasp the racism they're displaying when they selectively, situationally demonstrate for/with whom they stand, and then just blow off the same stance if it gets in the way of them being superior to another person or group. I'm not "conservative" I can't even really define or decide what is conservative, liberal, etc. But I know that BS practice of attacking other Americans to serve the conceit of one's political theories, while ignoring those you might have held up as your inspiration and allies on an argument just before the virtue signaling took place.
That was a hot rambling mess. If you want to cosplay as Karen the world hall monitor, do so without my money and leave my flag off your kit.
A body of water only 50-odd miles wide here in Alaska, where there are F-22s based.
The F-16 was cheaper and better. In case of war, these will be shot down and building them takes a very long time. Better to have cheaper and in huge quantities. The German Tiger tank was great but very complicated, expensive to build, required constant maintenance and too heavy in some environments to be used. The US builds super carriers with 5000 souls onboard, loaded with munition and fuel. This stuff works fine on much weaker countries like Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, countries that have no navy and hardly a military. In a war with an equal adversary, these super carriers would be located in no time and sunk with multiple missiles. By the way, the missiles used by the F-22 to kill the unarmed balloon cost $144,000 each and it is said the first one did not hit the balloon. And if the balloon was so dangerous and collected secret military data, why was it allowed to cross the entire US? The pentagon is just another financial investment instrument for the very rich, a money transfer from the tax payer to the 1%.
The F-16 isn't suitable for a near-peer war with anything that is a near-peer with the US.
And the idea is not to fight with stuff *barely* better, but to bring a decisive advantage - so decisive the shooting never starts.
The F-16 is suitable for the third tier militaries the F-16-X is entering service in. Otherwise its a dogfighter in a time when dog-fighting is going away, and visible to sensors an order of magnitude further away than the F-18, let alone the F-22 and F-35.
I doubt the author knows anything about the F-22 beyond a couple headline numbers.
He probably doesn’t know that in air-air exercises, roughly 144 F-15C’s are lost for each F-22.
Or that the F-22 stealth qualities, including not needing any emitters to employ weapons, gives it many different ways to integrate with our non stealth platforms to the benefit of both.
I could go on, but the point should be obvious: this article is ignorance on stilts.
I didn’t even bother to read it. Boehm already can’t handle subject matter far less complex. So anything he writes in this subject is bound to be worthless.
Just like Boehm.
+ 1941
Yeah, this is the most shithead headline this increasingly libtard rag has had yet.
Boehm is a cockroach among gods.
Yup.
His grasp of the idea of deterence is breathtaking.
The best weapon is the one you don't use, because you don't have to. The Raptor is a great air superiority fighter. While I personally like the reborn F-15 and wish they had moved ahead with the F-14 Super Tomcat, there's probably always going to be a need for interceptors like this. It's funny he cites the Brookings assessment about how existing fighters were just fine. What kind of dumbass thinks that somehow, the same airframes or tech we were flying in 1999 was going to be flying today, nearly a quarter century later? If you want a plane fleet that is costlier to maintain every year, that has more failures from material fatigue and pilot fatalities every year (representing the loss of who knows how many millions in the cost to train pilots), and pilots flying with the same avionics and weapons systems as 1999, then by all means, fall for the agenda driven misinformation coming from the ironically named "Reason".
The updated "4th generation" planes are "the same plane" in name only. They've been made stealthier, with new skins and ways to reduce their emf signatures. They have all new avionics and weapons systems fire control, heads up displays in the helmets, targeting and firing by looking at the target. The weapons themselves are new. The mounts for weapons or extra fuel are all new to accommodate new weapons, they have new sensors and ewf-type functions on board. They have new engines. I assume other changes have been made to the planes to ensure things like upgraded engines don't damage or break another part of the plane. So, for example, the F-15E, an awesome plane, is not an old airframe updated, it is an entirely new aircraft being manufactured. So much of it is new that it is not going to cost the same to build one that we paid for an earlier version in 1988.
Regarding air superiority, just who does Sun Tzu here think the US is preparing to fight, if necessary? Here's a shocker, ready? Russian aircraft manufacturers ARE the Soviet Union's manufacturers. Planes that were planned and designed under the USSR were finished by Russia. Russia (and Ukraine) fly Su-25s, built by the USSR, before it split up. On top of that, the advanced 4th and 5th gen fighters in China's arsenal that we'll be facing off against are more or less ripoffs of Soviet/Russian aircraft, so, the original idea of preparing to fight front-rank aircraft is sound, it never went away.
The acquisitions process is unwieldy and bloated because the Congress treats it like a jobs program, not because the weapons actually need to cost THAT much. It's ironic the propagandi...er... author claims support for his argument about costs on his claim the GOP tried to cut the program in 1999. Really? Did they? Please provide sources on this. If it was a tack on amendment to an entirely unrelated bill, then it's bs and nothing more than grandstanding. Also, in 1999 the Repos were trying to impeach the president, and an effort to reign in the cost of a project is ironic in that for that year and 2000, the US was actually running enough of a surplus due to good revenues that the government was actually reducing the gross deficit and not running new deficit spending budgets at that time. So it looks like the project wasn't breaking the bank. Anyway, as if those "conservative" GOP members really wanted to cut the program that certainly was helping support employment in their districts.
I love the floating, untethered not-opinion from Bob Gates. You cite the man's position, and follow it immediately with a quote, and I'm confused when it turns out the following quotation is NOT from Gates. Man, what a tease this arguer is. Set me up for a Bob Gates anti-F22 quote destroying the program in his words. Oops, nope, here's some guy you never heard of with an opinion that also was made for a world that doesn't exist now. Of course the F22 isn't or wasn't in their plans for Afghanistan or Iraq. Kind of hard to put something into your plans that doesn't yet actually exist. Anyway, there ain't no need for an air-superiority fighter when there's no one trying to be superior to you. It's also an attempt to make it look like a considered, supported argument, cites a summary and impression of Bob Gates's opinion, but without any context nor his specific wording. Then go with one single quote from a guy who is saying exactly what you want said on the topic. Is it a real challenge to find ONE commentator who will provide a comment that validates your premise? No, it isn't. Did you, the writer, even try to find opposing opinions? Experts in the field who easily and clearly make an argument contradictory to yours? Short of being able to do a poll, could you at least have done some informal info gathering and get a better sample of expert thinking than one guy? I was taught that good arguments required challenging them urself, ideally,trying to break ur own argument.
Oh, by the way, that useless Raptor you tried to skewer is the only US aircraft rated to fly at the altitude it took to knock the balloon out. It has the highest service ceiling of them all. The only aircraft I know of that fly as high would be the ~70 yr old U2 spy plane, totally unarmed. The retired supersonic+ SR-71 also can fly that high. So, yeah. Did you even ask that question?
How easy is it to write for one of these online rags these days? From what I've seen here and from Sullum, it can't be that hard. Good scam getting paid for this... writing.
+911
There is a reason why neither the F-22 nor the F-35 are being used to establish a “No Fly Zone” over Ukraine.
Because Ukraine isn’t now, nor ever has been an ally of the US? Because a no-fly zone is essentially an act of war? Because sleepy Joe and his liberal dipshits in office are probably too stupid to prevent escalation and eventual participation in something that is a potential existential threat?
I’m waiting for Tulpa to respond to this.
Biden (D) has sent $100B in military aid to Ukraine. It has more to do with S400 systems knocking the expensive toys out of the sky.
Chumby, you are out of your league on this one. I generally like your playful posts and I understand your hatred of the MIC but keeping up with the Chinese is a requirement in the current world. The F22 and the F35 are expensive and worth it.
China can get their fighter aircraft to the US how? Carrier based US planes playing Karen the world hall monitor in areas far from the United States in China’s backyard would be lucky to get off a carrier that has no good defense for hypersonic missiles.
China will aim their 'hypersonic missiles' how exactly?
Using something we can either torpedo, or sink with LRASMs.
Beyond that, the Chinese have to cross the strait to get to Taiwan - which we can cover with submarines, as well as land-based B-1s and B-2s dropping 20+ LRASMs per plane
Unlike Chinese weapons, the LRASM has autonomous networked targeting (no spotter/designator required - they are preloaded with a database of valid enemy targets & can divvy up detected targets to ensure that the right number of missiles engages each one, while avoiding non-targeted ships) & stealth... You discover it's coming about when it hits....
And it's not being 'Karen' to protect essential supply lines & keep commerce flowing. It's the essential role of whatever nation occupies our position in the world-order (the British did it before we did, back when they were 'the Empire' rather than one island off Europe)....
It absolutely is warboner Karen behavior. Go there on your dime and leave my flag off your uniform when doing so if you want to engage with them. Participating in hostilities with a nuclear power in their backyard, nowhere near our territory, does not result in glowing reviews.
This nation is $31,500,000,000,000 in debt and cannot even prevent a balloon from crossing our actual territory.
The aid we have sent seems to be working pretty well...
Including the HARMs that Ukraine has used to kill Russia's supposedly-invincible air defense toys...
Most of what we have sent has been field artillery (rocket and cannon)... Not something the S-400 can counter.
Hunter Biden thanks you for supporting a corrupt government that has been paying him.
Who is paying for the aid? How are your grocery prices lately?
If you want to go battle the Russians, Zelensky would gladly send you to the head of the line.
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Ukrainians are dying so that NATO troops don't have too, and they're more than happy to do it. Supply them with everything they want, and then some. The USA already pulled Europe's ass out of the fire twice, with much more blood and treasure than would have been necessary if we hadn't dilly-dallied.
Because it would be starting a shooting war with Russia?
Like, how do you think 'no-fly zones' are enforced? They shoot you down.
No, we shoot them down.
Russia – with 1/12 our GDP and 1/3 of our population – should be more afraid of a shooting war with *us* than we are with them.
Save me the nuclear scare, we have better nukes than they do & if they use theirs it's effectively national suicide.
Having failed to ensue such fear, the question is whether we (a) can arm the Ukranians well enough for them to win, (b) will have to eventually join the war in Ukraine, or (c) will be stuck fighting the Russians for all of Eastern Europe while simultaneously dealing with a Chinese invasion of Taiwan (in the event that Russia wins in Ukraine).
The chance for a peaceful outcome went away in 2014, when Russia decided that a war of conquest in Eastern Europe was something they could get away with. We have simply been slow to wake up to this fact.
>>There may not be a better metaphor for the costly grandiosity of the American military than the use of a multi-million-dollar fighter jet to dispatch an unarmed, unmaneuverable opponent.
Simpsons did it like 26 years ago
If the administration had bothered to try and bring it down before it went across the entire continent, they would have just used the F-16s stationed at Mountain Home in Idaho or any other number of Guard units in the heartland. It only ended up being an F-22 because they let it fly out to the Atlantic, and the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley happened to be the closest fighter unit.
the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley happened to be the closest fighter unit.
Let's not let pesky little facts like that get in the way of grandstanding about wasteful military spending from decades past.
Grandstanding? It's always a good time to complain about wasteful spending and remind people to try to do better.
DoD has half the percentage of the federal pie it had 40 years ago.
Welfare, which is literally money given to worthless people for no reason, is 1/3 of the budget.
But let's talk about DoD some more.
I worked for various components of the welfare system for 33 years. There are a lot of cheaters, and questionable people on it. There are also a lot of people who need it. You can’t just lump them altogether as “worthless people.” The lion’s share of Medicaid (for example) goes to the elderly.
Last I checked, medicare was for the elderly, medicaid for the poor..
With a little overlap in terms of nursing-home/assisted-living funding from medicaid....
Lol. Can you discuss the difference between discretionary and non-discretionart spending? No, I am sure you are too ignorant to know where budgets actually originate and why
Spending is spending.
Calling it 'non-discretionary' overlooks the fact that Congress can cancel anything if they actually muster the political will to do it...
There's a raptor squadron in Alaska.
Don't they get cold? I know dinosaurs were supposed to be warm blooded, but they don't even have fur.
Eagles and hawks are raptors. They live in Alaska.
Eagles live in Philly.
Eagles live outside of Philly, and commute to the stadium. That place is too dangerous for a linebacker.
more Flyers lived in our subdivision than Eagles ... Vermeil would throw a ball with a bunch of us he was a great guy
Bill Barber lived on my street for a few years. He liked handing out Bobby Clarke Street Hockey sticks to everyone.
Ackshuyally, dinosaurs were lizards and thus cold-blooded.
Actually, they were warm blooded, and that's been established for decades. They aren't lizards.
Hmmm...It turns out we could both be wrong and right, depending on which dinosaur we're talking about, and my information was definitely outdated from past studies.
Were Dinosaurs Warm- or Cold-Blooded?
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/were-dinosaurs-warm-or-cold-blooded
A long-standing and fundamental question about dinosaurs may finally have an answer
By Katie Hunt, CNN
Published 12:17 PM EDT, Wed May 25, 2022
https://us.cnn.com/2022/05/25/world/dinosaur-blood-warm-cold-scn/index.html
Thanks for helping me learn something new. Much obliged.
🙂
Actually they're related to birds.
Actually, birds are dinosaurs.
Some apparently had feathers.
And my apologies for replying out of my limited knowledge.
This new learning is amazing! More later on whether sheep's bladder can be employed to prevent earthquakes.
😉
Sure, but someone in the administration was determined to let it traverse the entire continent first.
It's good to collect data before destroying the provider.
The last administration had 3 go through without doing a damn thing about it....
The shooting-down happened because the red-slime media made a stink about it... Think about how many times the US shot down a Russian or Chinese spy asset during the Cold War... Zero.
"If the administration had bothered to try and bring it down before it went across the entire continent, they would have just used the F-16s stationed at Mountain Home in Idaho or any other number of Guard units in the heartland. It only ended up being an F-22 because they let it fly out to the Atlantic, and the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley happened to be the closest fighter unit."
No, the balloon was flying around 65K feet. Well above the maximum ceiling of the F16 (50K) feet. The F-22 has a flight ceiling of 60K feet.
+60,000
Actually, only the F-15 and F-22 have a ceiling high enough to hit that piece of garbage. There are a lot of F-22 in Alaska that could have taken care of it except for Brandon's senility and incompetence.
Why does the aircraft need to get to 60K ft? The missile presumably has a power system capable of ascending, right? I’m thinking a Sopwith Camel could launch a missile capable of 60K and killing a balloon. It’s not like they had to carry a thousand pound warhead up there. Hell, a half dozen M80’s would probably bring a balloon down. There are civilians in the desert building rockets that go that high from the ground…
The missile has a limited range, much of which is dependent on it having a mostly-horizontal trajectory....
Unless you are going to use something like an SM3, THAAD or GBI (missile defense systems) then you are going to have to fly high enough to get within the relatively close range required to make a Sidewinder kill.
If you do use a radar guided weapon (all of those SAMs, or the AIM-120 AMRAAM) then you provide the Chinese useful sigint on various radars.....
What's the service-ceiling of an old, worn out ANG F-16?
"I suggest we, get out and walk..."
exactly. we also would have accepted the Stealth Fighter for Bear Patrol
Grimey: It's a contest for children!
Lenny: Yeah, and Homer beat their brains in!
Yes, Frank Grimes loved to be called ‘Grimey’………
Nena did it almost 40 yrs. ago.
we were all "that chick has pit hair!"
A good shaving can take of that. And other hair.
But you don't see any bears around here, do you?
I didn't see yours before I responded to Jimbo above ^^
As Butters found out, The Simpson have already done everything.
The F-22 never had a clear purpose.
Its purpose was to replace the F-15, just like the F-35 (which really has been an obnoxious albatross of an aircraft) was supposed to replace the F-16 and F-18. And the main reason it's never had an air-to-air kill yet is because any other nation that has aircraft capable of engaging it doesn't want to start a shooting conflict with the US.
The clear purpose of all these programs is to make the right people even richer.
Not only that but pieces of it are made all over the country, so any politician who runs against it will lose because their opponent can accuse them of wanting to destroy high-paying jobs.
Yeah, it definitely had/ has a clear purpose. Whether that purpose (a strictly air superiority fighter) was worth the expenditure of $67 billion for only 187 jets is debatable, but it (and the F-35 for that matter) definitely had a purpose.
the F-35 (which really has been an obnoxious albatross of an aircraft) was supposed to replace the F-16 and F-18
The F-35 is also supposed to replace the AV-8 Harrier for the US Marines and the British RAF. Probably not worth pointing out, but I guess I felt like being pedantic. Although you're at least closer than Boehm was. He apparently thinks the F-35 is supposed to replace the F-22, which makes it hard to take the rest of his screed even the slightest bit seriously.
It’s possible to take anything Boehm writes seriously? I find that quite unbelievable.
At least it actually managed to replace the Harrier. The Navy is going with the Super Hornet and cutting way back on F-35 purchases.
F-35 would be a lot less of an "albatross" if it were actually tasked with only replacing F-16 and F-18. What makes a measurable improvement in any one performance category impossible for F-35 to achieve is that it's also supposed to replace AV-8B, A-6, F-14, A-10, and possibly one or two more.
There are very good technical reasons why a F-16 and an A-10 look so different, and for those reasons it's just not possible to build one aircraft (or even two very similar ones) which can do better at both missions than those airframes. That doesn't stop the media and hostile pols from using that criteria as the measuring bar for a project which was actually tasked at making a plane that's better at both missions than either of the older designs. Essentially the "mission" of the F-35 is to be better at killing tanks than a F-16 and better at dogfighting than the A-10, however, with the modern air-to-air arsenal of missiles that the USAF can deploy, and the real-time data networking that's being designed into these planes, either the F-35 or F-22 with support from AWACS and surface radars would likely win any air-to-air combat engagement before the opposing pilots are aware that the fight has begun.
In reality, the F-22 will likely take over the mission of the F-16, but that mission might not really exist to a real extent anymore since their primary purpose was to intercept inbound long-range bombers coming over the north pole. F-35 is intended to augment F-22 not replace it, and is designed to perform a large portion of air-to-ground strike missions while having the capability to still operate air-to-air. As a replacement for F-15, the F-22 will remain tasked as the primary "air dominance" plane.
The fact that we've only been involved in asymmetric conflicts where there's been no significant opponent air capability to eliminate only indicates that the F-22 hasn't really yet been needed in combat. It doesn't provide any data points as to whether or not the F-22 is capable of establishing air dominance in any given area against any given opponent, and with the development of "fifth generation" fighters by China in the decades since 1999, I'm not buying that any report from that year remains applicable to the current environment as proof that such capability isn't necessary as at least a deterrent.
Thing is - the A-10 actually isn't a very good CAS plane.
Like, its alright. But its killed more tanks with its missiles and bombs than the gun. The real tank-killer of its era is the AH-64.
The gun is actually . . . not very useful. T-64 are the most recent tanks it can handle and its got a pretty large CEP. Its mostly for strafing light convoys.
And, in the modern day, the planes don't find their own targets. The JTAC directs beyond line-of-sight munitions to their targets.
And there's the fact that the A-10 is - because its highly visible - pushed out further from the edge of the battlefield vs anyone with a functioning air defense system.
And if you don't have a functioning AD left . . . well, *any* aircraft will do.
There are so many advantages to the A-10 that I could write a book, but I'm not going to. Number 1 is that it strikes incredible fear into anyone that opposes it or it opposes. Automatic handguns are nice, but I'd rather face a 9mm than a .357 or .44 magnum.
The A-10 was built for a world where the primary air defense threat was the ZSU-23-4 (radar-aimed quad-23mm AA tank) and shoulder-fired SAMs.
Since the 70s, mobile SAM systems have gotten a-lot more deadly.
It's not viable in a modern conflict with anyone better equipped than Iraq or more competent than what we have seen from Russia in Ukraine.
And for the sort of war we fought the last 20 years, the OV-10 Bronco or Super Tucano is really a better CAS platform.... The A-10 uses too much fuel too quickly, when you are hunting dudes in black man-dresses.
The cannon on the A-10 might not be great against updated Russian tank armor since the end of the cold war, but the plane was designed in the 1960s, and the gun was selected for killing the tank tech from that time; one of the major factors in why we can't build more of them now is that the factories used have all been retooled and/or sold off, all of the mechanics with experience building the airframes are retired, and it's possible that some of the manufacturing processes involved have been made illegal due to workplace safety and environmental impact regulation changes since the 1970s/80s when the existing fleet was built. There are some limits to the gun since the recoil is almost enough to knock the plane under Vstall as it is, especially running DU ammunition. With modern battlefield tech, a lot of the tank-killing mission can be taken over by laser/radar guided munitions like JDAM coming from high-altitude bombers with several options for how to "paint" the targets from the ground and from the air.
In a broader CAS capacity, I'd guess that the cannon is still quite useful against light fortifications as well as APCs and other less heavily armored vehicles/mobile artillery equipment. By all reports, the guys on the ground love the thing regardless of how they got the job done. I'm not sure I really understand how a swept wing jet can be nearly as effective at CAS with its much higher minimum airspeed, and definitely don't see much practicality in using composite-skinned "stealth" aircraft in conditions where they're exposed to fire from visually-targeted weapons ranging from "small arms" to 7.62mm or 50cal machine gun fire. Small RCS is good for SAM suppression, but not much use against the "Mark 1 Eyeball".
Useless F-22? The premier air superiority fighter in the inventory. One could argue that we need to double our inventory of the F-22. Usage in a high intensity, peer level conflict would be to pair a couple of Raptors with a gaggle of F-15E/EX's as missile trucks, then profit.
Or, I dunno, use fleets of unmanned small drones to attack the enemy positions and airports at a fraction of the cost.
That's a viable strategy to switch to *now*.
It wasn't when the F-22 was fielded.
That only works when air defenses don't.
And if you are attacking airfields, you need platforms that can lift 2000lb bombs. So 'small' is out of the question.
If you are fighting an enemy with a workable integrated air-defense system, then anything beyond low altitude tactical drones (or large stealth drones that cost as much as an F-22) is out of the picture.
There is no profit except for the MIC.
MIC makes the drones as well, and they're not all that much cheaper than manned fighters since the Pentagon wants them to be "low observable" as well. You're not cutting LM or Raytheon out of the loop by switching to drones, you're just cutting the same checks to a different department at those contractors (sometimes not even that).
Drones also trade the lack of putting pilots at direct risk for the inherent signal delays and sensory limitations (although the latter might be almost nil these days) along with the risk of having the control signals jammed/hacked. It's hard to say for sure that those trades will actually translate into a meaningful advantage in battle.
Probably why I didn’t indicate using drones as an alternative.
Think of how many Sopwith Camels you could buy for the cost of a raptor! A fighter is a fighter. Totally the same thing.
Careful with bringing up Sopwith.
Next week, someone at Reason will dig up a War Dept report from 1916 about the need for more biplanes and fewer dirigibles as "proof" that the wise move would be for USAF to get out of the business of using jet-powered aircraft altogether.
I’m told of an option to convert a standard doghouse to function as a Sopwith Camel. Coincidentally payment for this conversion must be tendered in dog treats.
Huzzah!
Is the author upset that this aircraft hasn’t had more opportunities to be in battle?
WE NEED MOAR WAR!
Exactly.
Deterrent means that the enemy doesn't attack. How do you measure that?
So bohem is cool with a spy balloon. Can you just move to china a already?
Weed, ass sex have not been legalized there yet.
However, they do have a vibrant food truck scene, so... it's hovering on the edge of libertopia.
Ackshuyally, in Red China, the ass sex was de-classified as a mental illness in 2001, but they are trying to bring the Chinese psychological Laogai back.
And any food trucks they have are probably routed away from the Uighur and other undesireable populations.
What a road of lubbish Red China is!
So is the Soviet Reunion. They were thought to be the second-strongest military in the world but have been found to be the second-best military in Ukraine. The Ukrainians are fighting and dying so that NATO troops don't have to. Give Ukraine (and Taiwan) everything they want, and then some! The USA and NATO/EU should stop sitting on the fence. They should have started training Ukrainians on USA/NATO tanks and aircraft a decade ago! The Taiwanese have been training in the USA for decades, why wait to train Ukranians?
Yet another article by someone with no knowledge of current and future threat assessments, nor any clue about how long it takes to design and field new designs.
I am truly surprised this didn't include a subheading, "If only kids could have all the books and supplies they need and the Air Force had to hold a bake sale..."
Gadfly journalism. You can second guess all you want, after the fact. Turns out the USSR was never even a threat, amIright?
I have yet to find a term that accurately describes my foreign policy.
I am not a Neo-Conservative who wants the U.S. to be a World Policeman and seeks to spend blood and treasure to make the whole world over in the our image.
At the same time, I'm not a so-called "Realist" who thinks that human rights and human ethics are irrelevant to our dealing with other nations. We sould pick and choose our friends based on who is closer to Libertarian ideals.
While I don't favor foreign aid to anyone, I have no problem with cash-and-carry between private U.S. Citizens and Corporations and friendly, freedom-loving people worldwide. And I am sure as Hell no Pacifist who thinks we can't react even when terrorists have hijacked our planes and the ICBMs are over our heads.
Here, I think we would have hit the G-for-Goldilocks Spot by destroying this Red Chinese balloon as fast as it hit the Territorial Waters of the Aleutian Islands.
That way, Emperor Xi and the PLA would have seen that, while we aren't using NBC weapons, we are tired of the Wu Flu he sent three years earlier and aren't putting up with any more of his shit.
I guess my foreign policy school is Start-No-Fights-But-Be-Ready-To-Finish-Them-Ism.
🙂
It’s not ‘remaking the world in our image’, it’s making the world safe for American capitalism/profit….
Ensuring that, for example, all the laptops, game consoles and iPhones people want to buy can safely float over from where-ever they are cheapest to make (protectionism is incompatible with liberty – go crack a book & learn a modern skill) to wherever Walmart & Amazon intends them to be sold….
As for the rest, only an idiot would believe that COVID is a bio-weapon, or was meant to become one…
You don’t develop a bio-weapon without an effective vaccine/antidote – which the Chinese clearly never had… You also don’t develop one that is incapable of being confined to the target area, and that mutates so rapidly it is impossible to eradicate post-deployment.
+100,000
The F-35 isn't a replacement for the F-22. It's primarily a strike (air to ground) fighter that can do some air to air combat. If anything it's the replacement for the F-16.
While it's true that the F-22 and F-35 are enormous wastes of money, getting basic facts wrong doesn't exactly bolster your argument.
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Re; WInning a dogfight
- How many instances, over the last 25 years, has the US been in a Air - to Air combat?
- How many instances of the F-22 LOSING have there been?
The usefulness of a weapons system includes, in part, convincing the opponents not to engage (by being enough better than the opponent that it concedes the battle space).
Also, is Reason, of all people, encouraging MORE use of US military assets?
Also, we should give up our nukes because the US, as far as I know, has not been able to successfully win a war or kill anyone using nuclear weapons in the last 25 years
According to F-16 dot net, there were single losses of F-22s in each of the years 2020, 2012, 2010 and in 2004. There were two other incidents, in 2004 and 2009, where enough damage had been sustained that the airframe was scrapped.
A number of those losses were traced to the oxygen system failing.
Failures of O2 systems - not combat losses.
– How many instances of the F-22 LOSING have there been?
None, but you wouldn't get that from the way Boehm phrases the story:
That gives the uninformed reader the impression that the F-22 has been in lots of dogfights but always gets its ass kicked until now when it finally got to go up against "an unarmed, nearly immobile opponent," which isn't true at all. This was just the first time it was used to shoot something down (I wouldn't even call it a dogfight as that implies an actual fight), and as was pointed out up-thread the only reason they used the F-22 was because it happened to be the closest fighter available once the balloon had overflown the entire country.
I tend to agree that Boehm's phrasing and snark is poor. And it detracts from what is actually a good point:
Yes, it is true that the F22 hasn't had a lot of Opportunities at air-to-air combat. But that is the point. We always have this specter of big bad russian or chinese belligerents. But in reality, the wars we have fought for the past 30 years haven't required the billions we have dumped into the F22- and despite certain hawk's assurances, we have no proof that those billions were a good investment.
I agree that having awesome airplanes has a deterrent affect. That is a decent counterpoint. But I think it also overstates things. We have no proof that the F22 is keeping China out of Taiwan. One might just assume the F22 is an anti alien and anti gozar the destructor platform as well.
"One might just assume the F22 is an anti alien and anti gozar the destructor platform as well."
Makes more sense than a piece of cloth being covid protection.
Go learn about ‘layered defense’ and understand that even a 5% decrease in transmission probability (because your exhaled spit gets caught in the mask, even if it does nothing to protect you from inhaling someone else's) is worth the minor hassle of telling people to wear a (completely harmless) mask….
Especially when the people doing the telling are private-property-owners… Who are already telling you (Gasp) you have to wear shoes & a shirt to enter their store….
In his defense, he’s kind of stupid.
They haven't required it because for the last 20 years Russia and China have been quiescent so we've been focusing on shitty ME militaries.
They're not anymore.
Granted, the Russian military isn't covering itself in glory here . . .
It’s more that the WWII model of ‘aw shit, we’re at war – let’s send our troops out with god-awful garbage weapons while we invent the stuff we should have had before the war started - we have more bodies than they have bombs’ is no longer viable.
Rather than developing the P-51, F6F, & M26 Pershing in a year or two (while Americans in inferior equipment die holding the line), it takes decades to field a new combat aircraft or tank….
Boehm, your word for today is DETERRENCE.
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""– How many instances, over the last 25 years, has the US been in a Air – to Air combat?
– How many instances of the F-22 LOSING have there been?"
Questions a journalist would ask.
I am not sure Boehm is deft enough in the use of logic to understand that is what his argument implies.
Or maybe he is advocating keeping a squadron of P-51 Mustangs or some such around to take down low cost targets like the balloon?
You know who DID NOT win in a dogfight?
Baron Von Richthofen against Snoopy?
😉
+1,000,000
I dunno, all fighter jets have a purpose: to be used as a threat from Biden toward Americans to give up their weapons because they cant compete with his F (whatever#).
You know, just like the founders intended the president act.
“Nobody fucks with a Biden”
His staffer, Tara Reade, did. Albeit unwillingly.
Nuke me bitch!
I thought he would just go out on the porch and randomly fire shotgun shells in the air, or shoot people in the leg
"After $67 billion and more than 20 years, the F-22 finally won a dogfight against an unarmed, nearly immobile opponent."
Im certainly for looking for places to cut spending and will hear any argument for it, but this level of analysis is obviously riddled with errors and frankly retarded. This is similar to the stuff they do where they try and twist into a mental pretzel to show why "X" event means we obviously need open borders.
Seriously reason, you are not sending your best writers / editors. This shit is weak, sophomoric writing and thought.
weak, sophomoric writing and thought
That's pretty much Eric Boehm's MO. I've never been impressed with his level of analysis. Even on the occasions that I agree with him it's always weak sauce.
+10,000,000
Regrettably, they are.
The price quoted needs to be notes that that is lifetime cost including maintenance and repairs. Unlike our freeways that they build and do not include maintenance in the cost
There may be a good argument that the F-22:is an overcooked design that is not worth the cost, but saying that it is useless because the US has not fought any country with a significant air superiority threat while the F-22 has been operational is daft.
The USAF has finally decided to focus on the future instead of the past. I can't help but approve.
But the fact that the F-22 had never won a dogfight before its decisive victory over what may or may not have been a Chinese spy balloon is a nice illustration of why the United States has the world's most expensive military by a massive margin.
And thank God for that expensive, technologically advanced military. Where would Ukraine and the rest of Europe be without it?
Where would Ukraine and the rest of Europe be without it?
West Russia? Or they'd have to actually spend some of their own money on their national defense.
That is the issue. These advanced fighter programs are expensive. Canada and Mexico are not threatening our airspace. China floated a balloon overhead that a Gen4 fighter could have shot down.
Taxation and money printing fund these expensive implements of imperialism.
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I’ll grant you lesser aircraft could have taken out this balloon. Hell, a Piper Cub with a blow gun shooter riding shotgun probably could have done it.
But the F-22 is not a weapon of imperialism if it’s used to protect our own airspace and soil. Make sure you’re not listening to Pacifica Radio or RT while texting.
🙂
From where are Chinese and Russian fighters flying into US airspace? They can’t.
The balloon gave both Russia and China an idea of how feckless our defenses are, especially under Sloppy Joe.
Will they also be flying a fleet of tankers similar to Britain when she bombed the runways at the Falklands? If the nation spent less time and money war bonering and more time on actual national defense things like China balloon would not have been permitted to fly over US soil.
If you can get a Piper Cub to 60k ft, Textron Lycoming has a job in engineering for you....
We should go back to bolt actions for the next service rifle.
The two new planes are wealth redistribution from the US taxpayer & money printer to the MIC. For defending the United States and not some esoteric “interests” or euphemism for adventurism, what do they do that the Gen 4 fighters didn’t?
We should develop an exorbitantly expensive even newer battle rifle system that does not improve our ability to defend our nation but could tip the scales should we engage in war boner military adventurism.
What can they do? Survive in a missile-threat environment....
Actually engage in air-to-air combat (a/o 1st gen stealth aircraft)...
Supercruise...
Eg, plenty....
From where are the enemy planes coming? Canada? Mexico?
+1,000,000,000
Lol are you fucking high? The F22 is the most dangerous aircraft to ever fly. Way to shit all over your own feeble credibility.
^
+1,000,000,000
This is a prime lesson in what it looks like when you start with a premise ("MILITARY BAD, REEEEEEE!!") and then desperately search for a current event to, however tangentially, tie to your point no matter how ridiculous and silly.
1. Obviously not a dogfight.
2. The irony of calling anything useless.
We went about this all wrong. See what you do is; if there is ever a problem, walk outside your home and fire two blasts...
One of Diamond Joe's greatest hits.
The Chinese government denounced the U.S. decision to down the balloon, calling it an “excessive reaction that seriously violates international convention.”
Umm... kayy?
violates international convention
Whereas losing control of a balloon (even if it wasn't a spy balloon) is just peachy-keen.
The stupidity of this article.
If the author has his way we'd still be using the F4 with gun pods.
"Older fighters had dominated the skies during Desert Storm and the Kosovo conflict, and no other country was even close to closing the gap."
What part of 'near peer' confuses you?
Iraq was a 3rd tier military, only that high up because of it's size without a modern air defense network.
What part of ‘near peer’ confuses you?
Also, the idea that we won't ever need the F-22 or F-35 because no other country will ever be able to match them is a fallacy in the extreme. Both Russia and China have 5th generation fighters (the Su-57 for Russia and I forget what China calls theirs). Whether they've truly caught up to the capabilities of the F-22 I don't know, but this idea that they'll never catch up is kind of stupid.
Of course, if we had a less interventionist foreign policy then you could argue that we don't need as much military spending but instead of making that argument we get this idiotic sophomoric level of analysis.
To be fair, the development lead time for new fighter and bomber technology is such that we should ALWAYS be spending some research and development money “just in case.” Obviously the F22 is an example of the wrong way to do that, and the focus should continue to be upon upgrading existing weapons systems instead of crash programs for non-existing and unlikely future threats. Spending money we don’t have on new stuff while ignoring increasingly severe maintenance problems on our aging equipment (see recent Navy fleet maintenance disaster for examples) is stupid. Incremental improvements with new orders for existing systems over shorter time frames seems to be the better way to go, but it doesn’t make careers like the flashy, expensive new programs. Just like building new bridges has always been good for building political careers but spending money to maintain existing bridges and infrastructure isn't nearly as attractive.
How do you ‘upgrade’ the F-117 to make it a viable interceptor? You can’t.
You also can’t upgrade the F-15 or F-16 to make them stealth (note: the F-15EX only ‘works’ as a support platform for the 22/35).
And the existing airframes are very rapidly becoming physically worn out, to the point where they will need to be replaced.
The F-22 is a case where something new had to be made, to do what needed to be done.
Why didn't they just get a black hawk. Lasso the damn thing, and drag it out of US airspace? It's a balloon, it's not like it's going to be hard to move.
What? You don't believe in drama?
Air is difficult to beat into submission at an altitude of ~12 miles.
Ahh, I hadn't read that part.
A big black hawk?
And we'll ignore the J20 for the sake of the narrative.
Boem, War imIs Boring isn't going to be calling any time soon.
I don't expect to get any useful information about the F-22 from a rag whose writers think the Chinese spy balloon was a "hot air balloon".
Why didn’t they just put a hole in the balloon with a bullet and let the whole thing descend intact with the deflated balloon acting like a streamer?
Almost as if they wanted it destroyed so its true purpose will never be known.
Almost as if they wanted it destroyed so its true purpose will never be known.
Well, if they brought it down way that it would be mostly intact so they could study it, and then if it turned out it really was just a weather balloon they'd have an awful lot of egg on their face, but there was enough attention drawn to it that they clearly felt they had to DO SOMETHING. So, shoot it down in a way that there likely won't be any way to tell for sure what the balloon's payload was and now they won't ever have to admit what it really was.
In fact, if it was a "spy balloon," then proving that would also make the administration look bad because then they would have let it fly over the entire country collecting intelligence before doing anything about it. Bringing it down in a way that they could study it and prove what it was one way or another is a lose-lose proposition. Shooting it down in a way that practically guarantees it was destroyed means they can say it was whatever they want.
Yup.
Or maybe shooting it down without blowing it up never occurred to anyone. After all, they’ve got all these really flashy and expensive toys that they just have to use. Why use something cheap like a bullet?
It's a show of force. The balloon wasn't a serious security threat. It was a test by the PRC to see how America would respond. I'm kind of surprised they didn't fly an entire squadron of F-22s up there and blow it out of the sky with a dozen missiles at once.
Because it was too high up & past experience shows that bullets don't effectively work on this sort of target.
No, they wouldn't. The US is perfectly justified in shooting down Chinese weather balloons that are off course.
+10,000,000,000
The Soviet Union agrees with this (ref: Gary Powers), traditional US practice does not.
First of all, you are confusing manned spy planes with unmanned spy balloons.
Second, can you give actual examples of when the USSR launched spy balloons or spy planes against the US and the US chose to let them get away with it? If not, you can't say that it isn't "US practice".
Finally, policy choices are different from legitimate actions. The US is justified in shooting down Chinese spy balloons, and there is no reason to hesitate. The US would also be justified in shooting down manned Chinese spy planes, though hopefully we would be nice enough to give the pilot an opportunity to eject or land first.
After $67 billion and more than 20 years, the F-22 finally won a dogfight
The last air engagement was during the Iraq war, and that's bad, or something.
(It was against an SU-25, btw)
No doubt. We haven't had a fire in this neighborhood in over a year, why are we buying these expensive fire trucks and paying these guys and gals just to sit around the station and make chili?
During the Syria/ISIS war, against an Su-24...
Close range kill with an AIM-120, after a Sidewinder missed.
Interesting. I didn't know about that one.
The US hadn't conducted an amphibious landing since Korea, why do we need a marine corps?
/s
Somalia started with an amphibious landing, where they were met with fierce resistance from CNN reporters.
I thought we did an amphibious landing in Kuwait during Desert Storm, but it was largely an unopposed landing because the occupying Iraqi army was already on the run, but I could be mis-remembering.
Nope. We threatened an amphibious landing as a feint. Didn't actually do it, but it kept some enemy forces tied down preparing to defend against it...
As the old saying goes, a camel is a horse designed by committee. The F22 is supposed to do everything, so it doesn't fare as well as would be hoped against planes designed for air to air combat. But it's supposed to be able to shoot them down before they even know they are in a dogfight. Hopefully that works.
But it’s supposed to be able to shoot them down before they even know they are in a dogfight.
A century ago that would be described as unsportsmanlike cowardice. Times have changed.
The F22 is supposed to do everything, so it doesn’t fare as well as would be hoped against planes designed for air to air combat.
I think you're confusing the F-35 for the F-22. The F-22 was always intended to be an air superiority fighter only originally to replace the F-15 (we still fly F-15 though), while the F-35 is the multi-role fighter intended to replace the F-16 (Air Force), F-18 (Navy) and AV-8 (Marines and RAF).
The usual argument against the F-22 is that a fighter that can only do one thing is wasteful because you'll likely never use it for the one thing it's built for (shoot down other fighter aircraft), especially when you're mostly fighting in third world shitholes with little to no air force. Which to be fair is a valid criticism from a cost/ benefit point of view.
Yeah, I was thinking of the F35 as the all purpose jet. It remains without a dogfight win.
The F-22 was designed as an air dominance fighter, not a multirole fighter.
The content of Reason has steadily declined over the past few years. One would hope that this idiotic article would be the nadir, but I have a feeling that the crack troop of writers they have will keep on trying to get more and more stupid.
While Reason used to be libertarian, as far as I can tell from recent trends, they are:
Anti-military
Against the concept of national borders.
Against the concept of enforcing criminal laws in virtually any case.
In favor of very timid police who are disinclined to do anything to protect the public.
In favor of more lawsuits to solve virtually any problem, especially if the lawsuits provide a disincentive to the police to protect the public.
I used to come here for interesting articles. Now I just come to watch the car wreck.
Thank you! I think the problem stems from the fact that instead of Libertarians producing journalism, this publication has been infested by Journalists trying to co-opt the libertarian market.
That out of the way, I usually appreciate much of Eric's analysis and information about the economic dangers of too much government, but this article is almost insultingly simplistic. It's trying so hard to be "Jon Stewart" levels of snark, and the head line is obnoxious click-bait.
That’s pretty much spot on.
It is hard to image a war where planes like the F22 and F35 would ever be used. It is like the US military is determined to beat the US military because there doesn't really appear to be another military equivalent. We are often reminded that we have to be able to fight a conventional war when the last such war was likely WWII when you had nearly equivalent armies. Today we don't have wars we have conflicts that are often fought asymmetrically. Nothing demonstrates that better than a multimillion dollar fighter jet being used to take down a cheap (in terms of military spending) spy balloon.
There is kind of a major conventional war going on right now. While we are not an actual combatant, it shows we need to be prepared. I guess you would rather that we be completely defenseless and unprepared. Weakness, especially military weakness, is the greatest guarantee of war.
The only choices are ridiculously expensive platforms or nothing at all. No options in between.
Yes, there is Ukraine, but we are not fighting in that war. The level of military technology for that war is far below the level of the F22. Drones and shoulder fired missiles seem to give the Ukrainians the advantage, while Russia is relying on cheap Iranian drones. It is also worth noting that the Russian strategy is less conventional warfare, like taking territory and more inflicting terror on the opposition population.
Also, I not suggesting military weakness but rather focusing on the more likely mission. You buy a whole lot of drones and shoulder fired missiles for the cost of a F22.
Drones and missiles have rendered armor practically obsolete.
No they haven't. They are still very much relevant in combined arms operations.
Just don't drive them single file down a major road.
Russia continues to take territory and is surrounding Bakhmut as we speak after having made gains to do so. Zinc coffins were not popular in Russia after Afghanistan; they are not throwing soldiers into direct fire like Zelensky is doing.
The war isn’t over yet, and Biden has made it very clear that the war ends with regime change in Russia. Now we are sending tanks over. It’s just a matter of time before we are in a direct war. Especially since Biden has torpedoed any possible peace talks.
Peace talks? Where the aggressor gets to keep the land they stole, TWICE? So they can rearm and attack the next European country?
War escalation? Where one side drags the other nuclear superpower into Direct conflict? So we can have a nuclear exchange?
I’m glad one person here articulates this oft overlooked but important perspective. Well done sir.
Only if Russia is suicidal, which they aren't.
Peace talks… That legitimize war-for-conquest, thus encouraging China to invade Taiwan? Um no.
US interests (peace with China) demand that Russia be expelled from Ukraine – including Crimea – such that the international norm of ‘no conquest’ is enforced.
That indirectly means Vlad ends up falling on a poisoned umbrella (because the Russians won't let him live if he gets them humiliated in war), which while not an objective is also not exactly a bad thing.
Mod is engaging in standard leftist thinking.
Would you like to ride in my beautiful balloon
Would you like to spy in my beautiful balloon
We could float above the missile range together, you and I
For we can spy, we can spy
Up, up and away
My beautiful, my beautiful balloon...
You win the Internet for a day with that one! 🙂
Fantastic! Let me take a look...OH MY GOD!!!!...have you seen this crap?
As Stewart Brand would put it, What it is, is up to you.
😉
+1 5th Dimension
I guess we should keep a force of piston engine fighters around to take care of low cost, low maneuverability targets, by Boehm's way of thinking?
The balloon was flying at around 65,000 feet. No other airplane in our arsenal can fly that high.
The F-22 was the only option we had to shoot this down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15_Eagle
Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (20,000 m)
Global Hawk can get there, too. Lack of weapons might be a problem, though.
+10,000,000,000
I spent a good but on handheld fire extinguishers for my home. When we had the kitchen fire last year, they were why we just rebuilt the kitchen, instead of the entire house. I now have more.
That the adversary of the future - China - is actively building 5G fighters (some of which look a lot like the F-22) suggests to me that maybe this time our military got it right.
Frankly, the article was snarky and sophomoric.
Russia has the "equivalent" SU-57 in service. My understanding is that they only have produced about a dozen, due to the size of their economy.
Cheap copies based on appearances, not function.
Why not harpoon it like Moby Dick and drag it down to earth. LOL
*grabs a harpoon attached to 60,000 feet of rope*
Fedallah said no. Many more predictions to come!
By the State of the Union speech on Tuesday Joe! will claim he was piloting the plane, was in a dogfight with the balloon, and only his top gun skills let him prevail in downing this dangerous adversary.
And Snoopy was his wingman.
He will cut in with a version of that Top Gun song:
Highway to the Stranger Danger Zone
Highway? I'm afraid that's Mayor Pete's department.
He’ll be wearing his aviator glasses.
The timing if this article couldn't be worse. Lots of people wanted to rip on the pointless F-22 back in the mid aughts, when we had total air superiority against irregular and poorly equipped terrorist quasi-states, but today, with great powers tensions higher than at any point since the early 80s, it's a very good thing that we have an air superiority platform that no other country can match.
To be sure, the F-22 program was insanely expensive on a per-plane basis, mostly because Congress prohibited exports and then cut total procurement by over 50%. And because we have relatively few of them, they have not been a top priority for upgrades. (Heck the AIM-9X missile that shot down the balloon wasn't even compatible with the F-22 until last year! The world's premier dogfighting missile wasn't available on the world's premier dogfighting plane because it wasn't considered a priority until recently.)
To be sure, the F-22 isn't the answer in the Pacific, and it will be superseded before too long, but that doesn't mean it is or was pointless. First, it was a tremendous deterrent. There has probably been no time in history in which the U.S. outmatched its likely opponents in an air war by as great a degree as it did since the F-22 was introduced. Second, it was a technological jump forward that facilitated the F-35 (an excellent plane) and the B-21 (which has the potential to revolutionize air power). In fact, the B-21 might eventually make aircraft carriers obsolete (or far less important), and that would never have happened without the F-22.
This was a very disappointing article. It is full of bad assumptions, untruths and half truths. I could spend hours on then
Untruth #1: "The F-22 never had a clear purpose."
Utter nonsense. Its clear purpose was to be an air superiority fighter for the US Air Force. It shoots down bad guys.
We have not had to fight a near-peer competitor with a serious air force in the last 20 years, but the F-22 would have dominated the skies if we had.
I've been paying for fire insurance on my house for decades. I've never used it. Does that mean it lacked a purpose?
Untruth #2: "Now, we're paying for its replacement—the much-maligned F-35 fighter"
The F-35 is not the F-22s replacement. The F-22's replacement will be the NGAD, due to arrive in the 2030s.
The F-35 is a light, stealthy bomber with a secondary capability to shoot down enemy aircraft. The F-22 is an air superiority fighter with a minimal capability to deliver guided bombs.
Half-truth: "—despite major advances in drone technology that are likely to make fighter jets even more obsolete in the coming decades than they've been for the past two."
Yes, drone technology is advancing and may make manned aircraft "obsolete" in the coming decades. But drones aren't there yet. Neither are they particularly close.
This article was so very bad. Badly reasoned, full of factual errors and sophomoric.
"After $67 billion and more than 20 years, the F-22 finally won a dogfight against an unarmed, nearly immobile opponent."
After 50 years and well over one trillion dollars, not a single Minuteman missile has destroyed a Russian city.
Think about why.
How useful will all these platforms be in a cyberwar?
How likely is it that any war will happen exclusively in cyberspace?
So let me get this straight - we are basically closer to another world war than at any point in the last 50 years and you are complaining about the military?
There is a literal land war in Europe, with Russia pretty much wanting to conquer whatever it can. It won't stop with Ukraine or even formerly conquered nations like Poland.
China is planning on invading Taiwan in the next few years.
So yeah, great time to disarm! China and Russia will surely leave us alone, even if we let them conquer our allies and democratic countries.
The military is literally one of the only justifications for the federal government.
Russia stopped the genocide that western backed Kiev had been conducting since the illegal overthrow of power known as Euromaidan, where US elected officials directly participated (McCain and Graham to name two) wanting the Zelensky government to honor the Minsk accords, which under pressure from Washington and Brussels, they did not. Washington continues to pressure Kiev not to engage in talks. Russia is in no position to invade the United States. The only threat is her nuclear arsenal, which becomes more of a threat every day the US continued to participate in this maddening proxy war. This debacle is Biden’s folly. Team Neocon is fully behind Brandon.
Whatever, Russian troll.
Whatever Joe Biden water carrier and occasional diaper changer.
McCain died in 2018, Zelensky came to power in 2019. I suppose McCain's participation was through a Ouija board.
Euromaidan was 2013 where McCain and Graham actively participated. I recall when the western backed “pro democracy” crowd burned dozens of protesters in Odessa.
This nonsense is exactly the argument Hitler used to justify invading Eastern European countries (must 'protect' the ethnic Germans from the savage Slavs - just change who is being 'protected' and who the supposed threat is) . It was a fabricated crock back then too…
Russia is in a position to invade Eastern Europe, and the impacts of such a war on the US (and our treaty obligations) would necessitate our involvement…
Except that war would feature veteran troops & more competent leaders (everyone incompetent having been killed in Ukraine, fallen on a radioactive umbrella, or shipped to Siberia)….
Their nuclear arsenal is only a concern if Putin is a whole lot crazier than anyone thinks he is – because anyone who uses Russia’s nukes is signing Russia’s death warrant… The US has better nukes, and ours are far more likely to work as designed.
Kiev violated their agreements with Moscow while simultaneously conducting a seven plus year campaign of genocide against the people in Donbas and Lugansk. Nice strawman and Hitler reference. The pro Kiev side is openly wear Nazi insignias. One corps idolizes Stepan Bandera - Poland complained to Zelensky and told them to send more arms.
US troops entering Russian land would turn nuclear. I’m 150 miles and upwind from the nearest target. Mostly offgrid and can be completely. Other mistakes by Brandon and company could lead to that. I recall Wesley Clark issuing orders for NATO troops to fire on Russians in the Balkans where James Blunt (yup, that singer guy) disobeyed. Putting two nuclear nations on the field of battle has one result. That is on the other side of the planet where our “ally” is a bad actor.
The US can’t prevent a balloon from crossing over its nuclear triad. Remember the withdraw from Afghanistan? How did that go? Same leadership team would be playing here except it wouldn’t be against irregulars riding around in Toyota pickup trucks.
Nonsense. Moscow violated their agreement with Kiev, London & Washington (in exchange for which, Ukraine became the 2nd nation to give up it’s nuclear arsenal – after South Africa) by invading Ukraine in 2014.
The Russians never abided by the Minsk Agreement – they sent in ‘little green men’ to keep the war going under the pretext of ‘local partisans fighting a civil war’ (who were actually Russian military regulars)….
There is no anti-Russian genocide, no Nazis, it’s all Putinist propaganda…
What there is, is Russia trying to reconquer the former Soviet republics & restore it’s ‘former glory’… Something the US cannot allow to happen for obvious (multiple NATO members are ‘next’, and China absolutely will move on Taiwan, if Russia gets away with keeping any Ukrainian land) reasons….
Oh, BTW, the US has never before – despite 70 years of cold war – shot down a foreign intelligence-gathering flight. The Soviets shot down one of ours, as did the Cubans, we never shot down a single ComBloc plane. Also, our missile fields are clearly visible to Chinese spy sats from space….
The (inexcusably stupid, never should have happened) withdrawal from Afghanistan went the only way it could possibly have gone, unless we were willing to bump troop-numbers up to 100,000+ (to secure the country while we evacuated people/equipment) and commit actual war crimes (robbing the Afghan government of every last piece of American-made weaponry/equipment at gunpoint, so a bunch of chickenshits like Carlson could say we didn’t ‘leave anything behind’)….
The right thing to do was tell the Taliban we won't leave until you disarm, that is the only negotiable peace... And keep killing them in the interim.
Zelensky broke the Minsk accords and participated in or compliantly allowed a campaign of genocide.
I am watching videos from eastern Europe, including pro Ukrainian ones that contain Nazi propaganda. Insignias. Lionizing Bandera. The nazi salute school girls. That’s a bad team to side with. The same bad team with bioweapons labs likely associated with the US. Post Wuhan, we need to get away from such crap. If they can’t safely do it at Ft. Dietrich that might be a sign to avoid it. Team Biden and Fauci want us there helping. That ought to be enough to run from it.
S2Underground did a decent video on China balloon. He’s in the game. He thought it may have been a test run for a (not eminent but potential) lower altitude EMP. Maybe we will find out if they recover enough wreckage.
Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires. You might “hold” the cities but your great grandchildren would still be there and would still be dying. Who would pay for that? More deficit spending?
This bellicose mentality is exactly why a direct conflict with a nuclear nation is a terrible idea. The motivation to recover sunken “costs” including the desire make up for/avenge the dead. Gamblers do this. It is a gotcha game with no winning play. Cities will burn.
You are free now to go to Ukraine, Afghanistan or wherever else (Iraq? Vietnam? Iran?) to play mercenary. You haven’t. Is this an internet pontificator keyboard general thing?
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Meh. The F-22 is still the most capable air to air fighter in the world. I'm glad we have it and someone else doesn't.
+10,000,000,000
A missile was used to blow the balloon to smitherines and create a 7 mile debris field. A few rounds from the 20 mm machine gun would have allowed the balloon a slower descent and a small debris field to search. But then, there would have been no display of American fire power.
The missile(s) fired cost a lot less than a few shots from the cannon, no?
AIM-9X Sidewinders come in just under $400K a piece. I'm betting the 480 rounds of 20mm cost a little less than that.
After that post, watched an analysis video by a former F14 pilot. He made two points. (1) The belief was less damage would be caused to whatever China strapped on board by one missile explosion than potentially dozens 20 mm rounds. I laughed at that but he is in the know and I’m not. Though I detected a change in his voice so not sure if he believed it. (2) The 20 mm would have necessitated the plane getting within about 1,000 FT whereas the missile could be launched at about 2 miles. There was a pilot and aircraft safety issue in play. Not sure what the min air speed is for that plane at that altitude, but that wouldn’t be a seasoned A10 pilot practicing on the target range.
The intercept was named operation Luke. Interesting history for why they chose that. Those curious can research it and learn something cool.
20mm is not effective against balloons. No hard surface for the fuze to strike, and without a detonation the holes are too small to do enough damage…
The AIM9X was the cheapest thing we have in the arsenal that could actually be carried high-enough to hit, and that was powerful enough to produce effects on target.
And I thought the F-22s first kill would be a Cessna carrying a few pounds of pot.
Or a peaceful protester at the Capitol.
Nothing peaceful about a burglar breaking through a window, as part of a riotous mob seeking to assault people on the other side of a locked door.
If it were your house she was letting the mob into, you’d have shot her too…
I would not have shot her if it happened at my town’s office.
Trump’s certification was delayed by protesters as was Kavanaugh’s confirmation. Neither resulted in the use of deadly force and rightfully so.
I would have not dismissed the security that were literally there a minute before and providing an acceptable level of deescalation. Had the desire been to use force, non-deadly means such as hot sauce was on the menu.
Neither Kavanaugh’s nor Trump’s certification resulted in a violent mob storming the capitol, beating people with sticks & threatening to hang serving politicians. Neither involved staff/politicians on one side of a door, and a violent mob seeking to physically assault them (not just yell at them) on the other….
Also neither was the subject of an organized plot to usurp power.
The last time before Jan 6 that we had this problem (Bonus Army – viewed by the government of the day as a Communist insurrection), regular-Army troops under George Patton were deployed. They employed a horse-cavalry charge, tear gas & fixed bayonets to disperse the threat. Multiple people were killed.
Various ‘red-scare era’ (Bolshevik Revolution thru the start of WWII) labor uprisings were met with machine-gun fire…
The Jan 6th rioters got off easy…. At the point they started climbing the capitol & trying to force the police line (no longer a peaceful protest), lethal force was justified… And yet only one was shot…
Several security guards were present and deescalating the situation. Babbitt was unarmed. Though she was trespassing on public property.
Lethal force was not justified.
Your recollection seems a little biased. That’s how things get escalated.
It amazes me the number of “Warfighters” and/or “Arm chair military experts” who comment on these sorts of posts. This includes the author Eric Boehm.
While I agree, the F22 was a first generation stealth boondoggle, it provided the knowledge on how to build a better plane going forward: The F35, designed for multi-mode combat operations.
The failure we should be focusing on is the fact that a lot of the F35’s plans and manufacturing data were leaked to the Chinese who built a crappy knockoff, but still a credible fighter. Combined warfare requires real time interconnection between all services: Ground infantry and armored attack and transport vehicles, Artillery and Air Cover. It also required a Navy to transport said arms and, fight and win against enemy sea power and provide a supply chain for overseas combat.
In today’s environment, you need all the pieces, in all places all the time. This is the general US military plan. Was all the money spent properly, probably not, Was there corruption in awarding contracts, probably so. Is the skill of military procurement up to date and efficient, most assuredly no.
Can we win WWIII, most likely yes.
Closing note: Eric Boehm should be ashamed of himself. He sounds like a typical one sided “rag’ publication writer. I expect more from Reason. Get your act together guys and gals.
+100,000.000,000
The F-22 wasn’t a boondoggle, it was an F-15C replacement: ‘not a pound for air to ground’.
And it met it’s objectives spectacularly well in that department (especially compared to the F-35).
The issue is that it (a) seemed too expensive at the time (the 35 was originally supposed to be the cheaper, lighter, slower counterpart the way the F-16 was to the F-15... oops) and (b) Congress kept cutting the procurement numbers – we were originally supposed to 1:1 replace F-15s with them – which raised the price even higher.
In retrospect, cancelling the 22 was a massive mistake… But it made sense to Russ Feingold at a time when our main use of combat aircraft was engaging single-squad elements of irregular infantry.
"American air superiority was assured"
This is feels a tad less reassuring after a balloon arrived undetected and travelled across the nation for days.
HOW the balloon got shot down isn't the issue. I don't care if it was shot down by 1 billion dollar space satellite that we use 3 times a year to take pictures of butterflies. That's not what it's stake here. Sometimes this publication is like a balloon, blowing off course and away from the point to go off on strained tangents.
But to address Boehm's points - We're technically at war with Russia. No one thought a significant western nation would invade another nation again, and yet it happened. We don't like to think China would invade Taiwan, but it may happen. Peace time are over, and while I'm open to sensible defense cuts, I won't oppose the nation upgrading their fighter jets and military tech. China is doing that, North Korea will do that to the point of starving their own people. This isn't some BS culture war where tribal people yell at each other, this is where shit gets serious.
Why do people need rifles? Isn't handgun or shotgun with a few ammo sufficient for burglaries and things like that? Riots and Massive unrest, how likely are those incidents? Right?
We're draining our stockpile to prop up Ukraine, whose future is a Detroit of Europe even if they win the war. There ain't gonna be no huge military cuts, that just how it is. The price for no more mean tweets.
Move to Russia, Stalinist troll!
The likelihood of China invading Taiwan is directly tied to the success of Russian forces in Ukraine.
Also, we are not ‘draining our arsenal’ – save for the fact that we need to get busy making more M795 155mm shells…
We have entire divisions worth of M1A1 tanks that have been sitting in the desert for decades, parked when we struck the colors of the units they were previously assigned to.
Same for early-model F-16s and F-15s, F-4s, and so on at Davis-Mothan… And later-model F-16s as well, as they are replaced by F-35s.
The M777 howitzer is about to be retired from US service, because it’s use against an enemy that is actually competent and efficient with field-artillery (Russia isn’t, as we have seen) is essentially suicidal. Specifically, it takes quite-some minutes in best-case conditions to move the gun after it’s fired. It takes less than 1/2 the move-time for enemy radar to compute an accurate location & for enemy fire to start landing if they are as good as our crews are (fortunately for Ukraine, the Russians are not – and their artillery bureaucracy massively slows their processing-time for any given fire-mission)….
Also, whatever dim-wit designed the 777 as a towed gun that is pulled by it’s barrel (vice by the trails) did not consider that doing so makes it impossible to upgrade to a longer tube (as a way of increasing range) in the future…
So giving those away is no loss - they will be replaced in US inventory by something similar to the French Ceasar, which is able to 'shoot and scoot' - and thus be used more than once in a battle rather than a throw-away 'we shoot one fire mission, and then we die' weapon like the 777…
And while infinitely more survivable/effective than 777s, the older M109 Paladins are a physically different vehicle from the A6/ERCA model – so those are headed for the desert as soon as more A6s come online…
The US doesn’t even USE the GBSDB munition – that’s a designed-for-export product.
We are essentially – save HIMARS/MLRS – shipping the Ukranians our cold-war leftovers, and allowing them to be used for the explicit purpose they were built for (Killing Russians).
Informative comment, thank you.
Any analysis that concludes “the US defense apparatus is incompetent” is highly suspect.
Caveat: the executive branch is not part of the “defense apparatus.” It’s like calling a Ferrari “incompetent” because you put Miley Cyrus behind the wheel instead of Niki Lauda. The US last failed to decisively win conflicts since 1945 for domestic political reasons, not military ones.
The culture wars are not "BS." They are exactly the reason we lost in Vietnam. The degenerate hippie outrage in the U.S., coupled with treasonous media, made effective warfighting impossible.
This malady will continue until egalitarianism is exorcised, once and for all, from Western civilization. Unfortunately, the collapse of the US, or at least USG, seems to be a prerequisite for this.
By Shooting Down Balloon, the Expensive, Useless F-22 Fighter Covered Up Biden's Maleficence
Why blow it up with a missile over the ocean spreading the parts over a seven mile debris field when a couple of rounds would have poked holes in the balloon and it would have floated gently to Earth? To hide something! If there were explosives in it, they would have been in the basket, not the balloon itself. That would mean the Chinese never had any intention of that balloon ever returning to China and it had accomplished it’s tasks and they would have blown it up over the Atlantic anyway. Joe did China another favor.
Anything from China should be destroyed, or tarrifed until it is cheaper to destroy them.
Yeah, that’s the freedom & free-market spirit!
Tax the hell out of the superior (lower cost) product, because a handful of folks in banjo-land don’t want to crack a textbook and learn modern skills…
Sorry, but there are no “superior” products from China.
Also “free markets” do not exist, never have and never will. The only question is whether profits will be subjugated to national interests, or merely to the interests of the international elite.
The early American economy (18th-19th century) used tariffs heavily, and to great advantage.
And we should require ALL rare earths used in US products to be mined in the US, for national security and environmental reasons.
On the "environmental" part, anyone driving a Prius that has not seen the vast, gummy black dystopian lakes that were created in China to produce batteries for their little "save the Earth" toys should have his suffrage revoked.
Because - as demonstrated by the Canadians trying to shoot down a weather balloon in the 90s - 20mm rounds are spectacularly ineffective at bringing down this sort of balloon.
Also because it was high enough (pushing the published limits of the F22's service ceiling) up that a missile was the safest way to engage it.
This article is beyond stupid.
It takes 10-20 years to field a new warplane.
The pace of modern warfare is such that if we *need* something like the F-22 in a future conflict, we cannot 'Do the WWII thing' and throw bodies at the enemy while we invent/manufacture the needed weapon system....
You have to have the weapons needed to win on Day 1, or you will lose before you have time to build them.
Exactly. This is why the gas-guzzling M1 Abrams, which needs to be refueled every 6 hours of run time, looks retarded to people who don't recall (or never knew) that the extra 10mph you get out of it was critical to US plans for the defense of western Europe against Russian invasion during the cold war.
Any analysis that concludes "the US is stupid" and yet fails to explain how we are still unapproachably dominant three quarters of a century after the last global war... well, seems to be missing something.
Until I read Peter Zeihan's works, I did not appreciate the subtleties of international relations. The F22 is an air superiority fighter. The F35 is a multirole fighter. Here's a question. What if China flies their balloon at +80K' with a load of weaponized viruses. Can they be detected? Can they be eliminated? Both the Chinese and Russians are likely on their last legs as nations, and they will do stupid things.
Cogent comment. Most laymen seem to have no appreciation for how precarious China’s situation is. By mid-century they will be as geopolitically irrelevant as Russia.
And probably just as belligerent…
The only hope that a non-US power has of ever regaining global dominance is the breakup of the U.S. because of internal stressors. For that reason, China’s best strategy would be indirect warfare: propaganda, IP theft, stirring up unrest, causing pandemics, and then just at the right moment, dumping the U.S. dollar to cause a fiscal shock and at the same time cutting off all our supply chains. This would cause economic collapse in both countries, but in China it would not be fatal, because totalitarian nations can more easily control their populations.
They are positioning themselves very well for exactly such a move, whether or not it is deliberate. And we are helping them along at every step.
This analysis is the equivalent of saying Mike Tyson's favorite combination is useless because nobody wants to fight Mike Tyson.
Deterrence is real, ppl.
Specifically, it is the real reason that the only wars anyone will fight against the U.S. since 1945 are "cold" or extremely asymmetrical.
I regularly see videos of under 18 Ukrainians being pulled off the streets in what could only be described as fascist. One video yesterday had a “recruiter” punch the mother who was out shopping with her son before he was taken. At least there weren’t any Fauci-esque bioweapons labs there and Hunter didn’t get any kickbacks.
A country in Ukraine's situation will resort to whatever-they-need-to in order to keep their independence...
Especially in the face of how the Russians have behaved post invasion.
“We are pulling children off the streets literally from their mothers arms to become canon fodder so we can remain free!” That “we” part is Zelensky and the fixers that handled the Hunter Biden payments.
The pathology of Pluggo knows no bounds.