At the First Post-Roe March for Life, Pro-Lifers Try To Figure Out What Comes Next
The Supreme Court's Dobbs decision gives states the ability to prohibit abortion. For a lot of pro-lifers, this highlights how much persuading they still have to do.

WASHINGTON, D.C. — Tens of thousands of pro-life demonstrators gathered on the National Mall today for the 50th March for Life, the first to be held since the ending of national constitutional protections for abortion.
For decades, March for Life's primary goal has been to see the reversal of the Supreme Court's 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, which legalized abortion. That goal was achieved last summer with the Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization decision that overturned Roe and greatly expanded the ability of elected officials at the state and federal levels to restrict abortion.
That victory for abortion foes has left a big question hanging over the pro-life movement: What next?
It's a question of particular interest for libertarians, both pro-life and pro-choice.
The former have to figure out how best to thread the needle between legally protecting the lives of the unborn without falling into the typical pitfalls that await prohibitionists trying to stop something a lot of people want to do. The latter want to know exactly what threats to the individual right to abortion they'll now have to face down.
For today's triumphant rallygoers—a healthy mix of out-of-town students, families, and more Dominican friars than one could shake a stick at—the mission remains pretty simple and basically unchanged.
"We will march until abortion is unthinkable," said March for Life President Jeanne Mancini at today's rally.
That's certainly a big goal. New York Times columnist Ross Douthat described it as "genuinely revolutionary, even utopian." The ending of Roe is merely a first step toward that utopian endpoint.
"We're at the start of a new marathon," Kristi Hamrick, of Students for Life, tells Reason. "The fall of Roe really only removed a roadblock from where we could go."
Speakers today mentioned a few possible directions.
Newly installed House Majority Leader Rep. Steve Scalise (R–La.) won cheers from the crowd when he mentioned the House's recent passage of a bill that requires doctors to provide care to children born alive during an attempted abortion. He also touted a bill from the last Congress that would expand limits on federal funding of abortion and limit insurance plans' ability to cover the procedure.
Neither bill is likely to go anywhere while Democrats control the Senate and White House. The only Democratic elected official to speak was Connecticut Rep. Treneé McGee (D–New Haven) who railed against abortion as a racist practice that amounted to the "mass genocide of our children."
The partisan mix of speakers (or lack thereof) highlights how divisive abortion remains after Dobbs. Red states have moved to ban and restrict it while blue states have expanded subsidies for it.
This is the struggle pro-lifers face with the end of Roe. The movement's greatest victory to date also greatly expands the battlefield they have to contest. Rather than just convincing a handful of federal judges, they have to win over the public writ large.
Despite the partisan split on abortion, party politicking was rather understated at the event itself.
Speakers' prayer invocations were far more frequent than the handful of "get out the vote" plugs made from the stage. Flags of the Holy See and Virgin Mary banners easily outnumbered the one or two Trump flags fluttering above the crowd. The most common signs held by demonstrators were ones urging people to "choose life" not "vote Republican."
That speaks to the religious motivations animating so much of the anti-abortion cause. It's also an illustration that many in the crowd grasped that changing culture was as important as changing policy.
"The idea is to instill in everybody the importance of human dignity. In my opinion, it's changing hearts over changing laws," said Katherine Griffith, who came from Columbia, South Carolina, with her 7-month-old to attend the rally.
That's probably cold comfort for pro-choice libertarians. No one who spoke to Reason, or who spoke on stage, argued against outlawing abortion. But the emphasis on also convincing people that the practice is wrong does illustrate that a lot of pro-lifers understand that prohibition alone isn't going to achieve their far-reaching goals.
The median age of demonstrators at today's march was probably under 30. People who'd attended previous Marches for Life said this year's crowd was roughly the same size as past years.
That's all evidence that opposition to abortion, on both a political and personal level, isn't going to fade with the end of Roe or with boomers aging out of politics.
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I do support the right of pro-abortionists to abort themselves.
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Losing The Culture War Until Being Replaced By Their Betters
the problem is the betters are not having any kids...they will be replaced by the folks they want to replace the "white devils" and guess what..these folks lover big families...and traditional roles for woman. You lose thinking you won. Now if we can just allow 10M Palestinians asylum and citizenship...the bolsie left's days controlling the media and academia will be over. 10M traditional, pro family, hard working folks...they will replace the progs at the NYT, Goldman Sachs, Big Tech, Academia.....if the GOP was smart they would invite the entire Gaza strip to the US tomorrow.
And those pesky, disobedient brown people don't seem as keen about abortions.
Replaced by who, exactly?
Also, needs more homo erotica.
Solomon Peña, the girl-bullying felon convicted of robbery the Grabbers-Of-Pussy had running for the Statehouse in New Mexico couldn't make it. After hiring thugs to shoot guns at the homes of Democratic politicians (to please Jesus?) he was arrested and is held on no bond as a danger to the community. Is this renewed Night Rider terrorism to overturn the 13th Amendment banning enslavement of women or what?
What's it like, still living back in 1992.
Hihn finally had the good sense to drop dead. When will Hank follow suit?
Chose life seems like the next step to integrate this into society. I always thoughr Arthur C Clarke as right that mind/intelligence is the most precious thing in the universe. Why end it? Not talking about the 2% of rape/incest/deformed but normal pregnancies. And there is something else..accountability and responsibility. casual sex doesn't mean more liberty in fact the opposite. it creates a society of unaccountability and selfishness based on immaturity. Abortion for the most part should end but it is up to culture now. Perhaps woman will realize hoping on the rotating bed doesn't bring you happiness. Nor does a focus on their career. Stay a virgin till marriage, focus on your husband, have as many kids as you can afford. That is the path to happiness for woman, not abortion.
Thank you, Ayatollah. Women need you to tell them how to be happy.
A larger percentage of women than men are anti-abortion, so maybe they've already figured it out.
So the majority of the tiny minority of Americans who want to outlaw abortion are women? Funny how thay doesn't change the fact that banning/outlawing abortion is still deeply unpopular.
It's odd to say that the people who want to ban abortion is a tiny minority -- yet they seem to have such great influence on public policy despite being a minority.
Maybe they aren't nearly the tiny minority you make them out to be ....
Or, alternatively, maybe the people who want absolutely no restrictions on abortion aren't the majority you think them to be ....
Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, amirite?
Unless she does something to embarrass her family; then you kill her.
The way this is accomplished is to make a home movie where Alec Baldwin is handling a firearm supposed to be loaded with blanks.
It's a question of particular interest for libertarians, both pro-life and pro-choice.
If you want abortion outlawed, you're not a libertarian.
Because killing people is totes libertarian and only one of the people involved should have a choice, right?
The number of women who get abortions who didn't know sex causes babies is beyond miniscule. If you willingly decided to engage in procreation you've already made a choice.
There are a number of situations in which causing a human death is considered legally and morally appropriate. In most of these, the one being killed doesn't get a vote.
A woman does not lose sovereignty over her body because she fucked.
when does she gain sovereignty over anothers body? Asking for a baby.
When it invades her body.
It didn't invade anything. 99.9% of the time her actions and conscious choices put it there. It wasn't created ex-nihilo by the Fallopian Tube Fairy.
If you want to fuck around with sexual reproduction without facing the natural consequences, then there's the pill, rubbers, diaphragms and all sorts of other things you can use in concert to make sure that you don't accidentally create another human being.
If you're too fucking lazy or stupid to use them and accidentally create one than that's on you. You can't just go "Whoops, time to kill you cause I have a cruise booked this summer". That's not libertarian, that's serial killer thinking.
And what do you do about the “LYING LOTHARIO” problem?
THE “LYING LOTHARIO” PROBLEM: Well, a lot of pro-lifers are men, and I would bet that even those pro-lifers who are women? Very few of them have found themselves in the following shoes: Lying Lothario endlessly says “Love ya, babe, Love-ya, Love-ya, Love-ya, NOW can I get down your pants?” After she falls for him and he gets her pregnant, the abuse (from him) begins, and she finds out that he has 7 other “Love-ya, Babe, my One and Only” babes on the side, 4 of them also pregnant by him! So abortion is “veto power” against scumbucket men. If these behavioral genes get passed on and on, humans will evolve into something like elephant seals, where the men most skilled at lying and fighting off the other lying men, get a harem of 40 babes, and the rest of the men get nothing (other than caring for the resulting babies)! So abortion is empowering women to fight off this sort of thing… And reserve their baby-making powers for men who are less lying scum, and will actually make good fathers to the children.
So they want to “capitally punish” the “offenders” (abortion-providing doctors, so as to “dry up” the sources for safe abortions), while they have never been in the above-described (lied-to female) shoes! Willfully blind self-righteousness, basically…
Or maybe some of the anti-abortion men fantasize and lust after being the elephant-seal-like men who can gather the baby-making powers of a harem of 40 lied-to women, under the new scheme of things?
I am glad that SOME you oppose theft. Theft by deception is also theft; I hope you can see that! When a severely lying Lothario-type dude (as described above) appropriates the baby-making powers of a deceived young woman, that, too, is theft! Abortion is anti-theft, when a deceived woman no longer wants to rent out her womb to a deceptive scumbag, prospective god-awful supposed "father" of a sperm donor!
Those who are anti-abortion unmarried men should be out there desperately courting women who have already been deceived by scumbucket men, and volunteering to raise these unborn children (who are NOT your biological offspring), to fend off a HUGE root cause of abortion, and to put your money where your mouth is! And married anti-abortion men? Check with your wives; see if they mind you donating all of your spare time and money to helping out these future unmarried moms! THESE actions will relieve the pressures towards abortions!
Helping out pregnant women till the give birth, and then abandoning the support of said women (immediately or near-immediately post-birth), scarcely substitutes at ALL, for the loving support of a husband or father for 18 years, by the way!
Yes, there ARE fathers who magnanimously raise not-their-children, and do it well! God, Government Almighty, Allah, Zeus, Buddha, Jesus, etc., all please BLESS them, really and truly! And hopefully these fathers will teach their children NOT to be, or to welcome, “Lying Lothario”! Cultural as well as biological evolution can fend OFF the “Lying Lothario” problem! ALL methods need to be brought to bear; this is a SERIOUS problem here!
Abortions outlawed is a "pro-Lying-Lothario" measure, intended (or effectively intended) to turn humans into harem-fighting elephant seals! He who lies the BEST, and deceives the MOST women, into getting pregnant, WINS the genetic lottery! Meek and mild, honest men who would make good fathers? Well, WHO CARES about THEM?!?! (Or their interests in passing on their genes, which affect the behaviors of future generations?)
Are we not men? We are devolving! Devolving (especially if we ban abortions as “veto power” for lied-to mothers) into elephant-seal-like beasts, trampling the already-born babies underfoot and underfin, while fighting over mating rights, rather than looking to perform our duties as fathers!
Cram your 62-line heckler's veto up your ass, Shillsy, and don't come back until you decide to write something comprehensible and not built out of strawmen and invective.
I notice that Perfect You is Perfectly Incapable of addressing in ANY way the concerns that I raise! WHY does Perfect You desire to denigrate caring and nurturing fathers, and turning humans into mating-rights-fighting, lied-to-harems-gathering elephant-seal-like BEASTS, pray tell?
http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc117957741 The Sociobiology of Abortion Follow the SCIENCE of Sociobiology, Perfectly Ignorant One!
When did it choose to invade?
So if you choose to invite Bob into you house, and then determine later Bob invaded your house, you gain sovereignty over bob?
If you invite Bob into your house, and then decide it's time for him to leave, he must leave. If he refuses, you can call the cops, and they will escalate to deadly force if necessary to force him to go.
Of course, in the case of an embryo, it never existed outside the woman's body and therefore was never "invited" in.
So through no choice of the embryo you give sovereign decisions to a third party. Seems very libertarian. You know who did have a choice?
What "third party"? I'm insisting on sovereignty for the only relevant party.
Yeah I don't like getting into these conversations and I'm not opposed to abortion in every circumstance but your arguments are just silly. Do better.
The pro-abortion arguments are generally fucking stupid shit like calling the fetus a trespasser or a parasite.
What a poor analogy. Abortion is infanticide. Case closed.
What stupidity. A blastocyst is not an infant. An infant is not inside someone else's body.
I wonder, if a toddler wandered onto your property, if you believe you'd have the right to end the "invader's" life.
The social left increasingly sees pregnancy as a mortal affliction, babies in utero as alien parasites who can and should be freely and unremorsefully executed for trespassing if their existence is undesirable, and maternity as sexist oppression. Liberals went from believing abortion is a tragic option available to desperate women, a last resort to be kept safe, legal, and rare, to regarding it as medical procedure like any other, an uncontroversial means of birth control, or a sacrament of "birthing people's" sexual and moral liberation. "Rare" implies there might be something wrong with abortion, and we can't have that. True social "progress" is making it safe, legal, fully destigmatized, and federally funded.
We should hoist the left on their own petard and use up to lethal measures, as necessary, to expel THEM. Based on their own rationale, they have no room to object.
The difference is that a toddler is a person. A fetilized egg is a potential person.
If you prefer, we can call it 27% of a person, since a ferilized egg has barely more than a one in four chance of becoming an actual person.
The supposed appeal of the whole trespass argument is that it doesn’t matter if the human zygote, or embryo, or fetus is a person. It’s justifiable homicide. Non-persons can’t be guilty of infringing on property rights.
Why should likelihood of survival be a determining factor for rights-bearing personhood, any more than size or cognitive ability is? Imagine if places with a high infant mortality rate applied that reasoning to the ethics of infanticide. Life itself is terminal. I think you need to revise your criteria. But say a fertilized ovum is 27% a person. Should they not be entitled to 27% of their natural rights? Should prematurely ending that life not result in 27% of the penalty for murdering a fully endowed person?
No other "person" is INSIDE SOMEONE ELSE'S BODY AND PARASITICALLY DEPENDENT ON IT. It is a completely unique situation. That is why analogies to other human relationships fail. This unique situation demands unique rules.
Scientifically, the embryo or fetus is not in a parasitic relationship with its mother. There are a host (no pun intended) of, call them diagnostic, criteria for parasitism that are not met.
Every situation is unique. It doesn't mean all ethical analogies are invalid. Most thinking people would agree, if they're honest with themselves, that edge of life cases are particularly challenging.
Let me take this further. I assume you believe a woman has sovereignty once the appearance of the magic birth canal fairy you believe in appears. So let us start from there. Mother of a 3 day new born decides one morning the newborn is forcing her to extend her energy and use her body to provide sustenance. She decides its cries are invading her ear canals. She can’t take it anymore. So she locks the child in a closet and refuses to let it use her body to care for the 3 day old baby. You believe it is her body her choice and she can just abandon the child. No?
I noticed you skipped this questions vernon.
And so we are clear. I'm fine with having a conversation regarding a balancing of rights. But you refuse to even admit to any rights to be balanced, hiding behind illogical assertions.
I don't give serious responses to ridicule.
You are not a serious person.
You never offered a serious argument. Merely a specious, ignorant one.
What People? And no; the other one can be set free. Which in the exact same respect; what people?
A fetus isn't a person.
Just as much a human being as you are. There's no such thing as a Birth Canal Fairy to magically confer "personhood" on you as you pass through her sacred halls.
I swear, abortionists are the twenty-first century's magical thinkers.
"Just as much a human being as you are."
Except if you're a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, in which case Idaho "Team R" wants you to risk your life, to most likely be a sacrificial offering to "Pro-Life" ideology!
https://reason.com/2022/07/19/idaho-state-gop-says-abortion-should-be-illegal-even-when-used-to-save-a-womans-life/ "The Idaho GOP's platform throws this reasoning out with the bath water. According to the Idaho Reports Blog, an amendment to allow exceptions for "lethal danger" was proposed, with supporting delegates citing ectopic pregnancy concerns. That amendment was defeated 412–164. " Ectopic pregnancies will now be a DEATH SENTENCE in Idaho, 'cause of SINNERS who DARE to suffer random ectopic pregnancies!!! And YOU (extremists), will be there (right, rightist?) cheering ON the death of the "sinning" mother!!!
And just HOW wise, in the ways of medical science, are these "Team R" politicians in Idaho?
And do you want POLITICIANS to decide, instead of moms and their doctors? Speaking of clueless politicians, see https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/23/idaho-republican-anti-abortion-swallow-camera , “Anti-abortion lawmaker gets anatomy lesson – women cannot swallow camera for exam.” (“Pill-cam”). It seems Idaho representative Vito Barbieri wasn’t listening in the third grade, when another student asked the teacher, “If babies come from mommy’s tummy, how come they don’t get digested?” And he’s not done ANY even vaguely serious studying of health matters since then, either! This clearly shows the UTTER medical ignorance of many power-hungry politicians, who would STILL over-regulate medicine, in order to pander to fanatics! Ignorance for the win, over decency, humility, and self-restraint!
This isn't about ectopic pregnancies, retarded nut job.
Then WHY will Idaho "Team R" NOT clearly spell out that they favor the life of the mother, over a TOTALLY 100% GUARANTEED non-viable pregnancy? It's a pretty plain and simple question, and it shows the TRUE self-righteous, power-pigs faces of MANY "Team R" folks!
Your spouting dishonest propaganda. Ectopic pregnancy is treated by surgery or with methotrexate, not abortion.
The treatment for pre-eclampsia or sepsis is never abortion either.
Davis was doing a little something called "lying" in the quote in Camp's article.
Then WHY will Idaho “Team R” NOT clearly spell out that they favor the life of the mother, over a TOTALLY 100% GUARANTEED non-viable pregnancy? It’s a pretty plain and simple question!!!! And You (and fellow idjits) NEVER answer this simple question!
If you want to define emergency surgery for an ectopic pregnancy as “abortion,” then the overwhelming majority of passionate pro-lifers would favor emergency abortions. But many pro-lifers would not call such a procedure an abortion. If Team Red morons in their cringe-inducing ignorance of human reproductive physiology want to outlaw these kinds of surgeries, then they deserve to be called out for their moral stupidity.
"Except if you’re a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, in which case Idaho “Team R” wants you to risk your life"
This is a lie because the treatment for ectopic pregnancy isn't, and never has been, abortion, you ignorant fuck.
I've given you this link to the Wikipedia article on treatment before. Maybe read it before regurgatating your ActBlue agitprop next time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy#Surgery
"ectopic pregnancy" search phrase... About 11,300,000 results (0.54 seconds)
"ectopic cyst" search phrase... About 2,760 results (0.44 seconds)
Normal English-speakers call it a "pregnancy", not a "cyst"... Normal English-speakers call terminating a pregnancy an "abortion"... HELLO, EVIL, AXE-GRINDING, MOTHER-KILLING BITCH? At the BARE minimum, You want to make EXCUSES for the self-righteous womb-slavers, and CLOUD the real issues!
Mammary-Fuhrer and “Team R” fanatics: “Just TRUST IN US! WE can be trusted to NOT call it an abortion… When you are our FRIENDS and SUPPORTERS!” (If you’re NOT a friend of ours, all bets are off, butt we’re not going to say that.)
https://www.ekathimerini.com/opinion/1156932/for-my-friends-everything-for-my-enemies-the-law/
‘For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law’
The song of dictators and authoritarians EVERYWHERE!!!
It's a retarded and/or senile idiot. Don't waste your time.
SQRLSY should be retroactively aborted.
A fetus depends totally on the woman to survive I don't.
So does a three day old.
This is a stupid fucking argument.
"Just as much a human being as you are."
Not even close. I am a human being. A fetus is not.
The earliest point that you could conceivably claim a fetus was a person is the earliest point that a fetus has ever survived. So until just short of 21 weeks, you are the one doing the magical thinking.
Postnatal survivability =/= personhood
The fetus is a being distinct from the mother's body. The fetus is alive and no species other than human. Ergo, the fetus is a living human being.
Every human being should be assumed to be a person in the absence of air-tight reasoning to the contrary. The burden is on those who say particular classes of humans are not persons to explain, before the legal right to terminate their lives is granted, precisely why they aren't persons, without sloppy special pleading or lazy appeals to morally insignificant, biological distinctions.
How is a healthy one-month premature baby different from a perfectly healthy (aside from being killed) eighth month aborted fetus? Is it being alive during the trip through the birth canal?
I have no problem with most abortions. Per the Guttmacher Institute, 98.7% are performed within 21 weeks of pregnancy, and that’s fine with me. the other 1.3% performed 22 week and later are, one assumes, generally due to fatal fetal abnormalities or risk to the mother’s life. Those are fine with me too.
I’m just not sure why pro-choice people want to die defending the hill of abortion up to the moment of birth, as many I’ve encountered do.
Since SCOTUS decided every pregnant Woman is but property of the state. U would actual be deemed Pro-Choice in today's environment.
The magic of the Birth Canal Fairy is the 'separation' between Individuals (ironically the very definition of Individual). A right to life has to be 'inherent' as-in it's not an *ENTITLEMENT* to someone else's body.
If Pro-Life wants to recognize TWO Individuals all they need to do is counter their legislation and ALLOW TWO Individuals to exist (i.e. Fetal Ejection/C-Section)... YET; That's the one thing they absolutely refuse to allow..... They're trying to FORCE reproduction they will not allow TWO Individuals to exist for it might actually show their fantasy-land BS as the BS it is.
Get over yourself, or answer my question.
Playing ignorant to my well explained example of why the birth canal makes a difference isn't an unanswered question.
How is your evasion him playing ignorant?
I supplied a detailed answer of which he ignorantly spouts, "or answer my question" == He just didn't like the answer so pretended it didn't exist.
How is your example different as you give state power to cut into a woman?
How often, JesseBahnFuhrer, has the state, in the USA, recently if ever, FORCED a woman to get an abortion that she did NOT want?
SCOTUS did no such thing. They said it was not a federal issue.
The always abortion side has to continue to lie in defense of their stance.
Pre-Dobbs it was an individual decision, not a government mandate imposed on people. Now it's government coercion. Anti-abortionists are anti-liberty and pro-coercion.
Given the choice, Americans believe abortion should be legal. That will never change, no matter how much force and coercion anti-abortionists authorize.
Americans' support for abortion rights falls off dramatically after 15 weeks, a good month and a half before viability with current medical technologies. Not all coercion is unlibertarian, and most of us believe a third party justly can intervene, using force, to thwart an act of lethal aggression. In the case of government, it is their fiduciary responsibility to protect the lives and property of those within their jurisdiction.
Individual means "cannot be divided," Mr. Etymologist, not "has been separated."
This is where I live, too. Personally I think that the debate is whether personhood begins at 21 weeks (the earliest a fetus has ever survived), 24 weeks (when it breaks 50%), live birth, or some point in the middle.
Most pro-choice people don't support abortion through live birth. There are a lot of people (myself included) who believe that unless there is absolutely zero possibility of a ban or pre-viability restrictions, anti-abortionists will never stop trying to push it back. And they can't be trusted to accept reasonable compromise legislation.
The best solution, in my mind, is to make the point that a fetus is considered a person is the earliest that a fetus has ever survived, but it would have to be very clearly defined or anti-abortionists would waste everyone's time trying to manipulate it.
"The best solution, in my mind, is to make the point that a fetus is considered a person is the earliest that a fetus has ever survived, but it would have to be very clearly defined or anti-abortionists would waste everyone’s time trying to manipulate it."
Individual Right to Fetal Ejection would make that point.
I'm not sure who sold the lie that removal had to be killing anything.
Oh yeah... Yeah I do... Pro-Life propaganda.
I have listened to Walter Block, I just don't find his argument persuasive. While I can see how it might be attractive to reduce abortion to a question of priperry rights, since that eliminates the difficult moral and ethical questions inherent in abortion, avoiding tough questions is taking the easy path. Wrestling with difficult questions, especially moral and ethical questions, is a good thing.
The isn't many good things in the moral sphere that uses Gov-Guns of dictation.
That's the point. Government force should almost never have any part in the moral decisions of individuals. Especially if, as is the case with abortion, there has never been any attempt to establish the personal moral beliefs of a small group of individuals as a universal truth.
+1000000000 Well Said..
"It isn't a person" is the same excuse democrats used, prior to 1865, slaver.
Here’s the order you have to do it in:
1) First prove that a fertilized egg is a person (tough, considering it only has a 27% chance of being born).
2) Only after you have accomplished #1 can you claim that anyone has been killed.
Hint: you will never accomplish #1 because it is a personal belief, not a provable fact.
Your understanding of biological science is lacking. This is unsurprising, as your knowledge of most subjects has already proven to be lacking.
Once upon a time "science" was the discovery of reality...
You can't correctly use the term "science" when it defies reality...
Why does a 27% chance of being born have anything to do with personhood? There was a time when children younger than 5 had a very slim chance of becoming adults. Would it have been appropriate to treat them as non-humans then, too?
As for "personal belief" vs "provable fact", we actually have a theorem that tells us what's personal belief vs provable fact! It's called the "Godel Incompleteness Theorem", and it tells us that everything is personal belief -- that, at some level, we just have to accept things on faith -- in other words, that nothing is "provable fact".
So Gov-Guns should inherent a 0% connection with reality?
[WE]'re just about there; no need to encourage that approach.
Oh fuck off.
- sincerely, a pro-choice policy (anti-abortion personally) libertarian.
Like many other lobbying agendas. It has and will always be about the feeling of self-importance (self-righteous pride) using Gov-Guns....
In a day and age where F'En EVERYTHING is about a Gov-Gun; even the very simplest of things like feeling self-important is the responsibility of MORE, MORE, MORE Guns against those 'icky' people.
How about all you Pro-Life nut jobs go find something that's an asset to humanity to do and actually *EARN* your self-importance instead of chanting for using GUNS to dictate/demand your importance onto everyone else. Bunch of thugs.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Davos Kemp's Georgia...
https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1616541702855983104?t=9cTFc0sZqpTtjRc20ePhIw&s=19
Gay couple charged with molesting their adopted sons also pimped them out to pedophile ring, report claims
[Link]
Of course, if the local adoption agency had denied this "couple's" adoption application, Reason Magazine (along with ACLU) would be screaming bloody murder.
Oooo a future-seeing Prophet of Allah! Who will win the next baseball game?
There's no need for prognostication when you're dealing with the bien-pensant opinions of the Reasonistas.
Davos Kemp's Georgia
https://twitter.com/DolioJ/status/1615763304713945109?t=ObI-U7hjh1zzeAAIAQzcHA&s=19
This morning marks a milestone.
ANTIFA, in an Autonomous Zone (their words), exchanged gunfire with the Georgia State Police.
This is a bigger deal than the media is making it.
[Link]
Most of these occupiers are not even from Georgia. They've come from all over the country.
Let’s hope as many antifa vermin are terminated as possible,
Unthinkable? So no exceptions for rape, life of the mother or severe deformity. Hardcore.
Why doesn't Reason mention a third alternative advanced by libertarian Walter Block called "Evictionism?
It argues that, while the woman does have a right to "evict" the fetus from her womb, she doesn't have the right to kill it.
Simplified, Evictionism argues that : (1) If the fetus is viable, and (2) the procedure used to deliver the baby does not significantly increase the risk to the mother, and (3) a third party is willing to take over all responsibility for the baby (including paying for the procedure), then the woman must agree to the procedure.
Because Walter Block is a libertarian. These people (Reason Magazine writers) aren't. They're "progressives" who, for some reason, pretend they're libertarians. (Not very successfully, I might add.)
"... then the woman must agree to the procedure."
Meaning that during the mean-time, the woman is a womb-slave... Here womb no longer really, fully belongs to her. ONLY women (not men, ever) will be forced to be womb-slaves. The is PROFOUNDLY sexist! It also favors the genetic interests of rapists and of "Lying Lotharios", over those of honest and caring fathers. Prepare yourselves for human behavior to evolve towards that of the elephant seal, when women can no longer access abortion as "veto power" against rapists and "Lying Lotharios"! Search for "Lying Lothario" in these comments for details.
A personal right to Fetal Ejection.. That's all that's needed.
Don't even get me started on your SEXIST (that's right its YOU being sexist) when you claim everyone else is being sexist because NATURE itself has given one a different SEX. It's not an *ENTITLEMENT*....
I'm in favor of both men and women being allowed to get abortions, and otherwise (in general) master and control their own bodies, as much as is possible today. THAT is the non-sexist stance! Nature was and is sexist, yes. Passing laws attempting to change ("boss around") nature are futile! Gravity, STOP making obese people SOOOOO heavy, dammit!
You’re deranged on this subject. Abortion is infanticide.
Case closed.
Only in the land of *your* personal prejudices and delusions.
Used to excuse *your personal* dictates on someone else's *personal* life.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Sexual reproduction has already occurred. The new life is created; he or she has a mother and a father. The question is whether the mother has the moral right, and ought to have the legal right, either limited or unlimited, to end that parental relationship unilaterally by killing their preborn child. You might not see it as homicide, and some consider it justifiable homicide, but either way it is the deliberate taking of a vulnerable human life whose continued existence is not a mortal threat by any standard of reasonableness.
Not sure what prejudices or delusions you believe are necessary to see the issue in this way.
I’m getting pretty sick and tired of the Pro-Life compulsive LIE!!!
Removing something isn’t KILLING — F’En retards and your propaganda.
It’s just ensuring Gov-Guns don’t get to dictate what one does with their own bodies…
You Pro-Life propaganda inflicted Power-Mad nut jobs cannot even address your religious crusade properly.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom.
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
UR all EXACTLY like leftards,, "OMG! Without universal healthcare were all going to DIE! It's murder by neglect!" but instead of FORCED healthcare it's FORCED reproduction (loss of one's own BODY - A violation of the 4th Amendment to be secure in their persons - A violation of the 13th Amendment too)..
Oh well; It's for the children (Our imaginary unicorns in other people's very self) which cannot be a LIVING Individual at said point in time no matter what... It's 'dead' already.
There is no "mean-time". Evictionism allows a woman to get rid of the fetus at any time of her choosing during the pregnancy. If she decides to "evict" the fetus before it's viable, then fetus is removed and it dies. If she waits until it's viable, then the fetus is removed using a procedure that will try to save its life.
"If she waits until it’s viable, then the fetus is removed using a procedure that will try to save its life."
I believe that he argues that once a fetus is viable you can only evict it if there is a means to preserve the life of the fetus. So, for example, removing a fetus at 28 weeks would require a facility that had a NICU since the removed fetus could never survive without one. Prior to viability, according to Block, no such requirement would exist.
I prefer departurism over evictionism, but I'd take the Blockian view over the "It's mine to kill" pro-choice feminist POV.
My wife's body certainly isn't YOURS... And I'm not sure how you justify that opinion without sounding like a slave-owner.
So why doesn't Meeces Caucasian Pucker Tarleyton ever mention that invading a woman with the long arm of Comstockist law to coerce her into the involuntary servitude of reproduction violates the 13th Amendment?
I feel like Block's theory is just an intellectual way to sidestep the difficult moral and ethical questions surrounding abortion. Using property rights to address abortion seems like a cop-out to me.
But isn't the right to control your own property the main argument used by pro-abortionists? If the fetus is not a baby, then it is just a thing (i.e. property). --- "My body, my choice!"
A "fetus is not a baby" until it is..... Welcome to REALITY.
The pro choice position seems to be "I did something, I don't like the consequences, I should be free to escape the consequences regardless of cost to others."
For some people this seems consistent with their world view. How does this reconcile with libertarianism?
The cost to ‘others’ is ZERO…
The biggest problem with Pro-Life going Pre-Viable is they cannot demonstrate another in REALITY. They have to rely on fairy-tales and religious premises and try to thwart REALITY.
And just a big fat never-mind to the obviousness of it being just like Democrats thinking that it's everyone's responsibility (by the force of Gov-Guns) to House and Feed all the 'poor'. In retrospect it's an unwilling COST to the Woman being forced upon her by outsiders.
….BECAUSE She is not be allowed to Eject the Bum for her own most sacred of houses.
The juice isn’t worth the squeeze by any logic path one wants to take. It’s entirely *RELIGIOUS*.
Humorously Pro-Life's roots are founded by the Catholic Church.
Your certainty about what is non-human or sub-human reminds me of plantation owners.
Right Sure... It's just like using legislation to FORCE the slaves to be INSIDE their plantation owners body huh??? Give it up already...
Sorry, but if you can decide who/what is not human then so can others.
Fetal Ejection.. A right to life isn’t an *Entitlement* to someone else’s body… Make’s absolutely no difference who wants to decide what.
I need a new liver, a new heart, a new lung…. Does that entitle me to take yours or charge you with murder?
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection) UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Does a newborn have a right to be fed and kept alive, or does this also "infringe" on the mother's sacred property rights?
I ask because Saint Rothbard believed infant starvation should be legal according to libertarian principles.
It is an “infringe” on the mother’s sacred property rights…. Because the alternative is to FORCE her into involuntary servitude.
13th Amendment.
Individual Liberty and Justice might not be pretty but it’s far better than a Slave-State which is far more UGLY.
"non-human or sub-human"
Using inflammatory language? No, that doesn't make you seem unhinged at all.
Says the guy who entertains the idea that a human fetus could be only partially a human person, based on survivability rates? I hesitate to ask your opinion on the moral status of infants born with a only slim chance of survival.
Oh I know; Lets charge the mother with MURDER if it doesn't survive eh? F'En retard.
Or they understand how a fetus is an individual with unique DNA from the mother. You know reality?
Where BS Imagination has no boundaries… Under what kind of delusion does a DNA constitute a person? Why if it was a person it wouldn’t need to KEEP reproducing would it?
The only thing you’re sell is BS delusions to support FORCING others to do what they’re told out of your own lack of ability to mind UR own F’En business and most like just on a Self-Important Power-Trip.
JUST LEAVE OTHER PEOPLE ALONE FOR ONCE!!!!! EH? LIMITED Government?????
Something about Judge Not; That ye be not Judged...
And I cannot think of many area's that are more Gods territory than than unborn.
Stop trying to turn Gov-Guns into Gov-Gods.
Except he didn't. He talked about a unique genetic code, Mr. Strawman Slayer.
And claimed that unique genetic code = an Individual.
I guess in that same respect ---> Abortion doesn't kill DNA 🙂
Yes. DNA is the underlying basis of all individuals. That is why DNA testing can be linked to an individual.
Do you need a remedial course in biology?
And yet DNA and life aren't synonymous, nor interchangeable. It is possible to have DNA (unique or otherwise) without life.
What is an individual?
In-Divisible by it's very definition.
b: intended for one person
c: being an individual or *existing as an indivisible whole*
3: existing as a distinct entity : separate from a group
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
And? DNA (unique or otherwise) and life are two different things. You can easily have DNA without life.
I've never understood why anti-abortionists think the "unique DNA" observation is relevant to personhood.
The world is systemically biased against unborn people.
Kinda like un-earned income huh?
Because they aren't people. They are, at best, potential people.
So in a conflict of rights between an actual person and a possibly-a-person-one-day-in-the-future, the actual person wins ten times out of ten.
In the case of irreconcilable differences like this, the stable solution both sides need is one of plausible deniability (or plausible believability). Each side has to be made to believe they’re getting what they want. What they actually get is irrelevant politically, it only matter what they think they’ve gotten. Then everybody’s happy.
Power-Mad are never happy/settled. As-if this demonstration (the article) doesn't demonstrate that perfectly...
A different solution worked in August 1945.
So what, one side should slaughter the other? Threaten to blow them all up if they don't submit? What if both sides slaughter each other, and everybody's dead?
If you’re intent on the death penalty for Pro-Life’s supposed murder charges then your law proposal is to kill them both Pre-Viable for getting pregnant. That’s what happens when one makes up unicorn fairy-tales. The reality is; Its not another person until it is.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (another person via fetal ejection) UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Which humorously is almost an EXACT basis from which Roe v Wade was decided by a Republican Supreme Court I might add.
Why Pro-Life is Anti-Liberty....
The very legislation is to FORCE encapsulation of the child within the mother. It would be different if the legislation was to prevent a doctor from *intentionally* killing a fetus (ex; Fetal Ejection/C-Section). THAT IS NOT what Pro-Life is after no matter how much manipulation and deception (i.e. Propaganda) they spread.
Mothers Individual Liberty (body autonomy) ----- CANCELLED...
Child's Individual Liberty (freedom to be) ---- CANCELLED...
It's like striking two birds with one stone...
FREE the Woman and the ?Baby?...
NOT ENSLAVE both the Woman and the ?Baby?...
Now do contracts (and consequences) in general. If I decide that something is an unreasonable imposition on me, especially as the result of what I chose to do, then I should be able to walk away, right? Is that how you do "liberty"?
Drawing up imaginary legal contracts should be illegal too.
Why go imaginary? It's very easy to find examples of this is case law!
And a general consensus that, excepting unusual circumstances, you should generally be forced to do what you said you would do.
Since Murrican national socialist looters imagine the OTHER socialists' pet social Security program will fail any minute now, perhaps forcing women to squeeze out pups has an economic side--aside from potential Hitlerjugend brainwashees. Perhaps the idea is to force their kids into unwanted parenthood so as to hoard grandchildren to mooch off of when Orange Hitler's predictions come true. Jesus never said to enslave women.
In fact, the Wholly Bauble says nothing about enslaving women or about murdering doctors who help them escape involuntary servitude. So where do the Army of God terrorists find their orders?
Christians who turn to Scripture to trump political debates on abortion should be reminded that the Bible does not actually say anything at all on the topic. On this issue there is no divine revelation to be had. Then again Hitler was deeply Christian and that gets little mention. (https://bit.ly/3izsEKj)
(1) HITLER HATED CHRISTIANS and swore he would end it after he finished off the Jews! You must be a government school graduate! History revisionism (bringing it back to truth) is your friend.
(2) Every prominent pro-life leader without exception condemned without reservation the murder of a doctor in Pensacola many years ago by a guy (an agent provocateur perhaps) that other prolifers considered to be one strange and hung-up dude.
(3) Get with the times, dude! There are lots of web sites out there set up by atheists and agnostics who are shocked, appalled at the heartless brutality of abortion.
(4) Here you go, another step in your Bible education:
Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
That's DNA. The body of that baby is not part of the mother's body. Not her choice, not your choice, guess what the baby's choice. One member of a Planned Butcherhood center got shocked into quitting immediately when she saw her first ultrasound, which showed that baby doing all it could to escape those forceps (used to cut the baby into pieces to make the extraction easier).
(5) Bears repeating until it sinks in. Hitler promoted prenatal infanticide and hated Christianity. His brownshirts, the gang that executed Kristallnacht, they were occultists who regularly met for orgies.
No abortions shall be allowed ... ever under any circumstance. Every child that would have been aborted shall now be provided for by the Government from a mandatory Anti-Abortion Tax , assigned to each person; no deductions / exemptions allowed.
All inquires that start with "Why should I have to pay ____ " will be answered by "Because you wanted to end abortion , so suck it up. "
That would shut them up.
Yes, indeed, we should have a welfare state in contrast to the pure libertarian approach we have today. /sarc
There is no libertarian society on earth at this time. What planet are you posting from? This is Earth.
This is such a bizarre take on the matter.
Pro-lifers have a problem because the issue has been sent back to the states?
But that's what they wanted.
It was the pro-abortion crowd that DIDN'T want it to go to the states. They relied on a federal court decision
to keep the separate states from making it illegal or restricted. Because it used to be both. At the behest of the states.
It is the pro-abortion side that now faces an uphill battle.
But that’s what they wanted.
That's what they SAID they wanted. They should have been careful what they wished for. It was easy for them to demand draconian abortion laws when they knew there was no way they were going to happen. Now that the possibility exists for some states to enact very harsh abortion restrictions, they have to respond to the hard questions they could avoid when advocating abortion prohibition was just make-believe, and take responsibility for the consequences of depriving women of safe and legal abortion. I'm sure Britschgi is right that many of them feel some trepidation about that.
No abortion is safe for the baby inside.
Bah. We're merely going to be like Europe now.
Some States will want fairly strict restrictions -- and they will elect politicians to ensure that they will get those restrictions.
Some States will want to legalize abortion to the 15th trimester. And to the horror of the rest of the country, they'll pass those laws.
Most States will figure out some sort of compromise in between -- usually something to the effect of "well, if it's early, it's ok, if it's later, it's not".
And pro-life people will be more than satisfied to try to encourage States to be like the former, or at least like the latter -- and the issue will disappear from the National Discourse (to the degree that Democrats can let it).
Ya; Just ignore that Constitution... [WE] mobsters RULE! /s
Looks like there's a lot of pro-aborts that just don't get it.
I have absolutely ZERO indication that any pro-lifers are anything like the assertions in the article, we pro-lifers, including the Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, and agnostics, Republicans, Democrats, libertarians all, we have no doubt as to what to do next.
On to the states! There are various callings for pro-lifers who want to do something. Conversations with family and friends and neighbors, for one thing. Vigils outside prenatal infanticide abortuaries for another. Education for another. Science promotion for another (DNA proves that the baby inside is not the mother carrying the baby). The heartbeat is different, at four weeks it's a completely different heartbeat
Abstinence is the best contraceptive there is and it is foolproof. Acting like we are all rabbits who can't control ourselves is ultimate folly. Help stop post-abortion depression syndrome. Ladies, tell your boyfriend who wants you to kill it to man up and take responsibility for you and the baby.
Never-mind 80% of the population isn't dumb enough to buy into your Power-mad propaganda. Use Gov-----> GUNS to save a non-existing person..
Ya know when you shoot (by Gov-Guns) defiant mommy with your all so powerful Law enforcing GUNS; your going to kill any propaganda-induced unicorn right along with her.
I guess the only logical conclusion of the crusade is the ability to kill pregnant women with Gov-Guns with fairy-tale imaginations that defy reality then eh???
Four SOLID reasons Pro-Life should NOT be part of Republican’s platform.
1) In as much as you respect the families right to pull-the-plug on dying grandpa (as someone else put it; un-dead people) that same respect should be given to pregnant women.
2) In as much as you respect a persons right to be an organ donor; that same respect should be given to pregnant women. It’s not correct to *entitle* the right to life with Gov-Guns forcing other people’s organ donations.
3) It violates the 4th Amendment of “The right of the people to be secure in their persons.”
4) It violates the 13th Amendment of “involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
It’s a leftard argument through and through; How Gov-Guns must guarantee (an *entitlement*) life for everyone even if it requires Gov-Gun enslavement of those icky people.
Humorously it was a Republican Supreme Court that wisely wrote the Roe v Wade ruling.
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