House Republicans Want a Vote On the FairTax. Is It Worth Supporting?
The status quo is certainly worth challenging.

When Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R–Calif.) finally secured the votes necessary to become the next House speaker, it required concessions to dissenters within his party. Members of the House Freedom Caucus demanded, among other things, a vote on the Fair Tax Act, which has been introduced in the current session.
The Fair Tax Act, while likely doomed by a Democratic Senate and White House, represents the first serious challenge to the American tax code in recent memory. Versions of the act have been proposed since at least 1999. While it has never been voted on in the House, it has been endorsed by multiple Republican presidential candidates and Libertarian presidential candidate Gary Johnson.
The bill would overhaul the nation's entire tax code, scrapping all federal taxes in favor of the FairTax, a 23 percent national retail sales tax. Proponents argue that the 23 percent number is comparable to a 15 percent income tax plus the 7.65 percent payroll tax rate employers pay. In return, taxpayers would keep every cent of their paychecks and only pay taxes on the money they spend.
That shift would have major and immediate consequences. Annual tax returns and W-2s would cease to exist. People who make their money on the black market would be taxed at the same rate as anyone else. The enormous compliance costs currently associated with filing one's annual taxes would be cut significantly. With only one tax and no deductions, the entire process of funding the government would be more precise and transparent.
There are also tradeoffs. For one, around 40 percent of American households currently pay no federal income taxes, most of whom are in the bottom two-fifths of income earners. Under a FairTax system, those households would marginally increase their take-home pay but take it on the chin at the grocery store.
To account for the regressive structure of a pure consumption tax, the Fair Tax Act provides for a monthly stipend, which supporters call a "prebate." All American citizens, regardless of need or income level, would receive a "sales tax rebate" to offset their estimated monthly tax liability for essential purchases. Currently, the Social Security Administration dispenses monthly benefits to nearly 70 million people; the Fair Tax Act would increase that number to include every single adult.*
The bill's sponsor, Rep. Earl "Buddy" Carter (R–Ga.), said, "Instead of adding 87,000 new agents to weaponize the IRS against small business owners and middle America, this bill will eliminate the need for the department entirely." Abolishing the IRS is central to FairTax supporters' message: The cover of 2006's The Fair Tax Book featured the agency under a red circle-slash.
Under the FairTax, however, another federal agency would have to take its place to adjudicate which purchases qualify. A retail purchase is taxed, but buying manufacturing equipment to produce retail goods is not; if a manufacturer purchases equipment but then later decides to resell it, then that would require a payment of sales tax after the fact. This post hoc transaction would presumably require a central compliance authority similar to the IRS.
The Fair Tax Act is a featured bill in the pantheon of longshot legislation. Even if supporters could get it through both houses of Congress and signed by a president, it couldn't into effect until the 16th Amendment, which officially gave Congress the authority to tax income, was repealed. Amending the Constitution requires the assent of three-fourths of all U.S. states. The Constitution has not been amended since 1992.
*CORRECTION: Under the FairTax, the prebate would be given to every American.
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Others will see the Tax and Act.
A Fair tax sounds like a carnival.
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As it gains support the opposition will begin to Quicken.
You can intuit their turbo opposition.
So the biggest problem I have with the Fair tax is that the use of a pre-bate. All that is, is another term for UBI. And if it goes to everyone you then have instant inflation, on top of the sales tax inflation of ~24%
Sure I get to keep my whole paycheck, but paying 25% more on everything? Until you have people saying, well ignore food.... Okay... And then ignore shaving cream and tampons, and then ignore this special interest and that.
So you then stand up with the same mess you have today. And when the master pre-bate isn't enough let's raise it to help the poor and why do the rich need their master pre-bate? The can live without it....
And they can change all the laws without getting rid of the 16th. It's just the 16th allows for income so 20 years down the road, congress could add income back into the equation.
If you're not going to get rid of all federal taxes, your best bet is just to do a flat 10% tax across the board no deductions. No no agencies, no new agents, and make it a postcard size return.
Has anyone pointed out that the tax code is racist?
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As far as I can see, the fair tax makes a judgement on how to treat individuals based upon their personal circumstances.
This seems to me a violation of the constitution's claim of equal treatment before the law under due process.
I personally want the law to be JUST and not FAIR.
Doesn't a progressive income tax do that to a far greater extent? At least under this proposal everyone pays the same tax at the point of collection.
I agree with you. Current is like a property tax whereas proposed is more like a consumption tax such as that on gasoline.
At least under this proposal everyone pays the same tax at the point of collection.
The “prebate” idea kills that.
The pre-bate is designed to make sure that low-income people don't end up paying any tax.
The only time you pay tax is when you spend.
Earning income is not punished by taxing it.
Neal Boortz wrote a couple of books describing in detail how the whole Fair Tax works. Should be available on Amazon.
JIM POOK,
No, that's what the con men who designed it want you to think.
The Prebate is designed to redistribute even MORE wealth. see,
https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/ft-increases-tax-welfare
You would be wasting your money buying Boortz's books. While I loved his Conservatism (very limited fed gov) he crassly sought to make money by filling up those 2 books with volumes of hot air about a topic that he was virtually clueless about. Taxation is a very deep, complex topic that was FAR outside of his professional skills.
Yes, income tax does that. Income taxes are immoral by definition. Taxes at the point of sale is the best, least intrusive way to collect tax revenue.
If for no other reason that you don't get into the impossibly ugly and sticky situation of defining "income", let alone the personal privacy implications of "income".
DIANE REYNOLDS (PAUL.),
Yes, but a National sales tax is impractical. It would have to be so high that it would destroy our retail-sales-sensitive economy.
A VERY Flat, simple Income Tax is a practical answer,
I personally want the law to be JUST and not FAIR.
How about something like: T = S/P, where T is your tax, S is the government's spending, and P is the adult population? If you feel you're not paying your fair share, just contribute more.
The Fair Tax is the best tax idea ever. Every critisism I've seen of it is just because the person doing so misunderstands, or is trying to deceive their audience.
#1 EVERYONE gets the prebate. The prebate is set to cover what someone who pays no tax now would pay in the coming sales tax. So if you are significantly below the poverty line, the prebates act almost like the child tax credit now, paying you back more than you pay in. For someone that makes significantly more, they still get the prebate, but it will be offset by their purchases of higher end goods that poor people don't have to worry about, thus they will end up paying net tax on everything they purchase beyond what a poor person would. Sure, you could theoretically make money by hoarding your millions and living like a total pauper, but the vast majority of rich people won't do that. If you're greedy and thrifty enough to live a life of misery and poverty on like 10k a year despite making many times more than that just to dodge paying taxes, more power to you I guess.
#2 People will dodge the tax by purchasing used/gray market goods. So what? People already do that. Most of the tax revenue will be generated by people purchasing things that can't be or are undesirable to purchase used. People with 6-figure incomes are not going to suddenly start buying used luxury cars, TV's, and phones just to dodge a tax that is now offset by their having to pay no income tax.
#3 Businesses will cheat by not collecting or reporting tax. Some business already do this. The penalties for attempting this under current law results in the vast majority of businesses following the law. Businesses are also required to keep much more detailed records than individuals, meaning it's easier to audit them in cases where you suspect cheating. Even if this does miraculously transform into a major issue, wouldn't be easier for the government to go after businesses rather than auditing random individuals hoping to catch them cheating on such things as the child tax credit and EV credits?
Nexnelsrent ,
No, the FAIRtax is the WORST idea ever!
I am a retired tax lawyer/CPA and spent hundreds of hours studying this disaster that got worse the deeper I got into it.
See https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/summary-lte-and-supporting-papers
Please feel free to contact me via my website and I will be glad to help you understand it all.
Puns aside, at least someone is trying to do something different in DC. I hope this actually passes. Is it realistic to think anything will happen....no. But at least this bill was put forward for a vote.
++
It will fail, of course. But it might start discussion on how to change the way in which taxes are collected. That, in itself is worth something.
I don't even see it passing the House, let alone the Senate and Biden. It will get the 50 or so votes from the Freedom Caucus, but not many more.
Still, good to see it getting some debate.
I'd rather not have a 35% national sales tax, which is what it would need to be to balance the budget now. (6 trillion / (23 trillion - 6 trillion)). I think it was supposed to be 23% when the idea first floated.
So we would probably end up with a 10% national sales tax, and still have the income tax, and then both would go up.
Commenter_XY ,
No, you sound like Congress that always seeks to be seen as "doing something."
We should do something that is sensible, like a VERY falt, simple Income Tax, NOT something disastrous like the FAIRtax.
it couldn't into effect until the 16th Amendment, which officially gave Congress the authority to tax income, was repealed
How do you figure? The 16th amendment doesn't require an income tax. Though repealing it would be ideal.
At this point I'm for just about anything that kills the personal income tax and all of the massive invasions of privacy that come with it (not to mention huge burden on employers and individuals). The government should not know that much about my personal finances.
Possibly an allusion to the idea that the only way to keep the income tax dead is to repeal the 16th amendment which enables it.
Yeah, if you're a congressional parasite then why settle for a 23% consumption tax when you can tack on another 25% income tax and another 10% in SSI and another and another.
"How do you figure? The 16th amendment doesn’t require an income tax"
If the bill proposed conforms to the original Fair Tax plan, then it is written specifically so that it cannot be enacted until the 16th is repealed. This is because the creators of the Fair Tax know too well that if the government is authorized to have an income tax, eventually they will add it back in to supplement the Fair Tax.
ZEB,
You have hit on just one of FAIRtax's many fatal flaws and deceptions.
The 16th Amendment MUST be repealed first and permanently or we would wing up with BOTH an Income Tax AND the FAIRtax.
The FAIRtax has a laughable poison-pill provision that says that if the 16th Amendment is NOT repealed within 7 years after the FAIRtax is enacted, the FAIRtax is automatically repealed. Most people just don't understand that Congress would repeal that poison pill and we wind up with BOTH taxes.
Why would it require a repeal of the 16th amendment? It gives Congress the power to tax income, but its not a requirement.
Repealing would of course ensure that a later Congress doesn't resurrect the income tax in addition to the sales tax though.
Yeah, that is a legitimate worry.
An end around VAT.
The Fair Tax Act would not require the repeal of the 16th Amendment. Title IV of the Act states that HR 25 would sunset in 7 years if the 16th Amendment is not repealed.
ANMorton.
You can't be THAT naive!
Congress would never leave itself without a source of tax revenue.
Congress would simply repeal that "poison pill" that says FAIRtax disappears after 7 years if the 16th is NOT repealed, and we would wind up with BOTH taxes.
Fuck no to a sales tax. It won't replace income taxes, it will supplement them. Sure, it will be sold as a temporary thing as they transition from income tax to sales tax and of course the income tax will remain for the greedy rich bastards as an issue of fairness, but you're going to get fucked any way. Repeal income taxes first, we'll see how that goes, then we can talk about a sales tax. (No, a 40% sales tax on everything at both the wholesale and retail level is a non-starter so fuck you, we aren't even going to talk about it you loony-tunes motherfucker.)
^this
“Repeal income taxes first… etc.
Overall, I agree with your statement. But, let’s look at the way we pay taxes right now: currently, according to folks who follow this stuff, somewhere around 30% (some claim a bit more) of the cost of any item you currently purchase goes to pay the taxes charged to every entity involved in design, manufacture, production, shipping, and selling that item to you.
Ideally, if all remained constant, the actual cost of any particular item would not change at all — you would just get a receipt with the sales tax printed on it.
When folks see that they are giving the government 1/3 of every penny they spend, they might, just might, stage the Grand-Daddy of all Tax Revolts.
+1000000 Agree... It's a sh*tty plan to TAX MORE.. We're already being taxed to death and 23% price Inflation isn't going to fix runaway inflation.
It is not a "shitty plan to tax more". The creators of the plan have always called for eliminating the 16th Amendment along with passing this legislation, and every bill (including the current one) that has been considered has had a poison pill if the 16th is not repealed.
Now that may mean that the plan never passes, but it is unFAIR (haha) to treat it like an additional tax, when it was deliberately constructed to replace the tax.
Democrats will fix that idea... 🙂
I could actually see them getting behind this Sales Tax idea after it fails to pass written by a Republican (because they are so gangster oriented). Rebrand it; and take any benefit out of it and just tack it onto the various ways THEFT gets to happen. All value leaks leading back to it's creator must be plugged! 🙂
Overt,
I fixed my website so you can read the Summary plus a lot more without needing to download anything. But I bet you have not done so because your mind is closed, just like those few remaining FAIRtax diehards.
Once again, here is the place to start.
https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/summary-lte-and-supporting-papers
Your comment here exposes your ignorance. The fact that it was "designed" to operate with the 16th Amendment is meaningless.
Because the 16th will never be repealed BEFORE the FAIRtax is enacted (it will NEVER be enacted), then the FAIRtax should be a dead issue.
TJJ2000,
Its a 30% add-on sales tax (NOT 23%) and when the evasion/avoidance skyrocket it might have to go to 150% by some professional estimates.
Yes, and that's what the US needs: a regressive, consumption based tax to balance the budget.
People are paying this anyway as a consequence of the borrowing and money printing.
Sell the idea with an all tax must be collected in gold or silver. As the Constitution originally prescribed. Then I'll favor it.
So let's say (very hypothetically) that they pass this tomorrow, with an effective date of Jan 1, 2024.
I'm going to make every major purchase I can before then, depleting savings, running up credit cards, taking out new loans, etc so that all my purchases are made ahead of the sales tax. Then, next year, I'll have an easier time paying off all the credit cards, since my take home pay will be greater having no income tax. I'll basically have dodged almost any sort of tax on whatever I spend.
Yeah there's interest on the credit cards, but even that will be less than the tax if you pay it off in a year or two, and banks aren't stupid, they'll know people will do this and will offer promotional interest rates to beat the tax.
That's the opposite of the trick they used to convince people to support withholding money from you paycheck. They have everyone a year without income taxes before withholding started. As then, it wouldn't matter. Our government drops $Billions by the truckload, they won't miss the time amount of tax we manage to avoid.
And?
Yes there will be switching costs associated with the Fair Tax. This seems like a pretty low cost. The likelihood that everyone buys a year's worth of consumption ahead of time is pretty low.
Good for you. How is that an argument against the Fair Tax?
I was asking the same thing, myself.
To account for the *relatively* regressive structure of a pure consumption tax
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! This magazine has gotten as retarded as JFree and sarcasmic.
Wikipedia.org: A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases.
dictionary.com: A tax that takes a higher percentage of low incomes than high ones.
taxfoundation.org: A regressive tax is one where the average tax burden decreases with income.
The only one that comes close to making the Fair Tax regressive in any way is definition No. 2 and, even then, the tax doesn't take any percentage of any income.
I'd agree that the flat system is *more* regressive than the progressive system we have in place, but it's a fucking flat tax where everybody pays the same rate.
The regressive definition you've chosen isn't objective, and the system is only actually regressive inasmuch as you like the people it's giving breaks to.
I'd say it comes close to 3, and doesn't just come close to 2, it meets the definition pretty well.
Lower income people necessarily spend a higher percentage of their income than high income people, so a 23 percent sales tax will come pretty close to consuming 23% of their income. Higher income people are able to save or invest (I assume buying stock and the like won't be subject to the tax) so it will consume less than 23% of their income.
The same logic applies to 3, if we look at tax burden as a percent of income rather than a fixed dollar amount. We can also look at it in the sense that 100 dollars is more of a burden to someone with 10 dollars in their checking account, than 1000 dollars in to someone with 10,000 in their account. (so it comes close to that definition)
You're ignoring the progressivity of the FairTax due to the rebates.
No, I'm not. My logic works even if we subtract the poverty level from everyone's income. It still comes out the same. Someone earning 5,000 over poverty will almost certainly pay a greater percent of that 5,000 than someone who earns 100,000 over poverty will pay as a percent of that 100,000.
So what? That poverty+$5000 earner will still pay only a very small percentage on their total income.
My logic works
No it doesn't. Your logic works if you lie and people believe it. It's like saying a magician's logic about teleportation works. To somebody who can't see you openly placing the ball in your pocket it may work, but to someone who can plainly see you conflating relative amounts with absolute amounts, doing what your trying to do in favor of policy is unquestionably immoral.
The person who earns $100000 over poverty will invest their money in businesses, which benefits everybody. And eventually (when they retire or leave the money to their heirs), those investments will be turned back into cash and that cash will be spent and subject to sales tax.
So, every dollar everybody earns sooner or later is subject to sales tax. It's just that that tax on wealthy people is delayed until their money is no longer productive in the economy.
And that's how it should work.
He's ignoring English and math and favoring ambiguity.
I’d say it comes close to 3, and doesn’t just come close to 2, it meets the definition pretty well.
That's funny because definition 3 is the worst definition. Not because it's wrong, though it may be specifically and diametrically wrong, but because it omits essential details. Normally, in English "decreases with income" means income and whatever else is "with" it are both decreasing. But, by that definition, people at the low end of the low income bracket paying the least amount of taxes would be regressive and it's not. What the definition intends to say is "decreases with increasing income" or similar, which would align it with the other definitions. Further, the same definition just says "the average" but "the average", without stipulation, is definitively the same value for everyone in the set. The average of high income earners may be higher than the average of low income earners, but just "the average" is the same for everyone involved.
if we look at tax burden as a percent of income rather than a fixed dollar amount
That's not tax burden or even just burden, that's *relative* burden and, unless you're clear *and consistent* about the relativity, it's not an objective metric of anything. That is, if you make $10K/yr. and through your spend-and-debt scheme above come out a head $10K in taxes, that's a 100% return, nobody making $10M/yr. is going to get a 100% return on $10M so, the tax shift to the Fair Tax scheme would be a progressive shift, right? Or have I switched up several frames of reference and presented fixed absolute amounts favorable to my preferred outcome.
An oft-heard claim about the FairTax is that it is regressive. I do not believe this is the case, human nature being what it is. For most people it is true that the more they make, the more they spend. The structure of the FairTax is such that if this is true, then the FairTax is a progressive tax.
Fair-tax.org: A regressive tax is one where the rate of tax decreases as the ability to pay increases.
Wikiepedia: A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases.
These definitions seem to agree.
The Fair-Tax is not regressive. Overall, the FT is progressive, in that it is designed so that as income increases so does the effective tax rate, asymptotically approaching 23% as income increase, by assuming that annual spending is proportional to annual income (setting aside Bill Gates $1 income against billions of dollars of liquid assets in his net worth).
Yes, that is an assumption, but it is an assumption that is true for the vast majority of people, including high-income people. If that assumption is violated by an individual--a high-income miser--then in that case that individual can create an instance of a "regressive" case where that individual has managed to pay less, as a percentage of income, than normal lower-income taxpayers.
But that no more makes the FT regressive than does someone who legally structures their income and assets such that they avoid paying income taxes makes the current federal income tax regressive. That is, the income tax structure we have assumes that higher incomes (wages, rents, royalties and capital gains) will result in higher income taxes, but it is possible to have high income and pay little in the way of taxes, for example by investing heavily in AMT-bypassing municipal bonds.
And that is as it should be. Higher income people also consume more, so they pay more in sales taxes. The money they don't consume goes fully into investments, benefiting everybody in the economy. Those investments are socially desirable; they should not be taxed. Eventually, those dollars will be spent on consumption, and then people will pay sales tax on them.
It is an absurdity of the current tax system that we effectively subsidize consumption and penalize investing and saving. That's why the economic situation of many Americans is so precarious: the respond to the perverse incentives of our current tax system.
defaultdotxbe,
It's a 30% add-on sales tax, not 23%. These con men sell the 23% by dividing the tax by the TOTAL, INCLUDING THE TAX.
"I’d agree that the flat system is *more* regressive than the progressive system we have in place, but it’s a fucking flat tax where everybody pays the same rate."
In my case, a national sales tax would increase my "contribution" to the federal government. I haven't paid income tax in years, and won't, for quite a while -- most of my income is from a pension and SS, which are not taxed at all. I wouldn't be paying a TON more, but at least I would be paying. Just the thought of getting rid of the IRS is worth that to me.
How enlightening. I pay tax on my pension and on 50 to 85 percent of my s.s. Guess I'll have to read the IRS booklet again to see what I'm doing wrong.
"How enlightening. I pay tax on my pension and on 50 to 85 percent of my s.s. Guess I’ll have to read the IRS booklet again to see what I’m doing wrong."
I imagine it might depend on your income and/or from where your pension comes. My wife and I are both retired, and the "standard deductions" cover our other income. With those gone, as I said, I will be paying more, but it's worth it to me.
Notionally, the embedded taxes in retail items approaches the level of the Fair Tax, so there is a wash of sorts there as prices are driven down once the embedded taxes are no longer in effect, then you'd pay the consumption tax on lower-cost items (it's not perfect, but there is an effect).
Plus, you'd get the prebate, regardless of your income or its source, so the first $XX of your spending would be net tax-free, where $XX is a function of the Fiar Tax rate, the size of your household, and the poverty level established for that household size.
I wouldn’t be paying a TON more
This is what would be called, for you, a tax increase. However, if you're currently paying fewer taxes than someone making an income, for whom the tax would/could decrease, then making it so you and the income-earner pay the same amount of taxes on the same amount of goods purchased and/or money spent is definitively flat. If you pay more in taxes than someone else who bought the exact same goods for the exact same price, *then* the tax would be regressive against you and likely/possibly generally. Otherwise, it's only *relatively* regressive/progressive and if you hold it as such relative to something entirely outside the tax or the code altogether, you're lying when you say it's regressive.
If we both pay $100 in taxes, the tax isn't definitively regressive against you because my IQ is higher or against me because my age is lower.
"most of my income is from a pension and SS, which are not taxed at all."
Yes, most analyses of changes created by the Fair Tax show that this is where the biggest shift will occur. Older people will pay more in taxes than they previously did.
WOW!! Reading Wikipedia as valid information?!? If you want to know what the Fair Tax is, simply read the bill. It's only 132 pages. It will help you clear up some of your misunderstandings.
"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."
Thanks for the refresher, dumbass.
ANMorton,
Sorry, but while ready the bill is a good start, you really need to read my Summary of the FAIRtax's fatal flaws (see
link below) and then a whole lot more,
https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/ft-will-increase-prices-by-nearly-30
No, that is NOT how the "prebate" works under the Fairtax proposal. It is not paid to "all Americans living under the federal poverty line"; it would be paid to ALL adult citizens. The amount of the rebate would be equal to the tax on the amount of income for someone at the poverty line. In effect, spending up to the poverty line would then be tax-free for everyone. There would be no new bureaucracy required to keep track of eligibility for the rebate.
yep.
So, ultimately, a whole tax act or bill that is actually (still) progressive, practically as prototypically as possible (everyone below the poverty line pays zero, everyone above pays more), is being described by Reason as regressive, with concessions.
I’ll agree that we may come out ahead in overhead based on the bureaucracy losses and liberty gains. However, I still oppose the portrayal of progressive taxation as regressive because poor people aren’t getting enough free shit.
Minor correction: they define eligible "Families", not all adult citizens. But your explanation is substantially more correct than Lancaster's. It is really sad that Reason cannot figure out how this shit works.
Vernon Depner,
The Prebate is paid to the head of the household and is based upon the total number of persons (including children) in that household "family" (there can be multiple different household "families" living in one physical residence.
Sure. Right. It'll turn out that way, trust them.
There is a 'contract' that some retirement accounts (Roth IRA etc) will produce tax free income.
Those living on social security alone may be (just) over the poverty line now, but after paying the "fair" tax will be very poor indeed.
Sadly, so much of the economy is predicated on an income tax, there will need to be much more thought put into any changes.
Better to just greatly reduce deductions and the rates of the existing system while reducing or eliminating all other types of federal taxes.
Under any new proposal step one is to eliminate (not reduce) any federal department that cannot be directly linked to a constitutional authorization.
After the prebate, someone spending at the poverty line would pay no federal taxes under the Fairtax. Unlike under our current system, in which a worker earning wages at the poverty level is paying the 15.3% SS/Medicare tax (and no, there is no such thing as the "employer contribution"), and possibly a small federal income tax as well, depending on Earned Income Tax Credit eligibility.
Vernon Depner.
Correct. It is MORE wealth redistreibution.
Social Security—a wealth redistribution from young Black men to old white women.
VERNON DEPNER,
Please explain how you reach that conclusion.
I see it as redistribution from those who spend more (i.e., wealthier people) to those who spend less (i.e., those at the lower end of the economic scale). Karl Marx would be happy.
See, https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/ft-increases-tax-welfare
The social security issue could be alleviated simply by increasing payments by 23% (which, theoretically, would be self-funding because the 23% would be collected back in the sales tax)
I'm not sure how IRAs, 401ks and other pensions would be handled, but when I worked in retail we occasionally had people come in making purchases for non-profits and they had a certificate for a sales tax exemption, so something like that would be possibility for retirees.
simply by increasing payments by 23%
The prebate already does that.
Up to the poverty level yes, but standard SS payments are about double that, so there would need to be a larger prebate for SS recipients (unless we just tax the rest).
Did I miss the part of SS where you're guaranteed income beyond the poverty line?
Being more clear: isn't you spending money of people who don't yet have an income even more regressive than all of us, you, me, them all paying the same rate on the goods we do (or don't) consume?
Because, AFAICT, you spent your money 2-3 S.S. fiscal cliffs ago. And, to be clear, the alternative is definitively not kicking you out in the cold to die in the street like it meant in 1935. You'd just have to settle for a 45" 1K TV, 75 mbps, 1 streaming service, 5-yr.-old smart phone, hungryman dinners, and Uber Eats/courier work until the you die, unlike the 480p, 56k, no streaming, no smart phone, PB&J sandwiches, 90 hour labor weeks world I grew up in.
"Up to the poverty level yes, but standard SS payments are about double that, so there would need to be a larger prebate for SS recipients (unless we just tax the rest)."
What are you talking about? Seriously? We don't "tax the rest".
As a Social Security recipient (or any other resident of the US), none of your income is taxed. Your purchases of new goods are taxed.
For the record:
1) SS recipients TODAY pay income taxes.
2) An SS Recipient tomorrow who made purchases at the poverty line, would pay zero taxes.
3) If those SS Recipients consume above the poverty level, then they would only pay taxes on that. It remains to be seen whether they would actually carry a higher tax burden in this case.
4) A SS Recipient could avoid those additional taxes by spending only at the poverty level, or by buying used goods instead of brand new, or buying things in other countries as they travel the world.
This idea that somehow SS recipients should pay zero taxes under the new system when they pay taxes today is nuts on stilts.
Overt,
Not all SS recipients pay Income Tax today.
Unless your AGI is over $25,000 Single, $32,000 Married, NOTHING is added to your Gross Income. Even if something is added in, your Standard Deduction may wipe it out.
>>The status quo is certainly worth challenging.
every day.
People who make their money on the black market won't be paying taxes, period. That's what makes it a black market, plus contraband, of course.
"People who make their money on the black market won’t be paying taxes, period."
I think what the writer was getting at, is that black-marketers, from "moonshiners" to drug-dealers, to baby-sitters and part-time gardeners, who maybe don't declare their income, eventually spend their money just like the rest of -- at Walmart, the hardware store, etc., where their tax is collected just like everyone else's.
But then why single out black marketeers? Why pick garbage men, dog sitters, or lumberjacks?
No, choosing black marketeers was meant to single out black markets, and sales taxes do not figure into their sales.
"No, choosing black marketeers was meant to single out black markets, and sales taxes do not figure into their sales."
I disagree. Black marketers spend their money, eventually, just like everyone else. Do they buy cars, clothes, food, and eat at restaurants? etc., etc. That's all taxed. Under the current federal tax system, it isn't taxed.
Because garbage men, dog sitters*, and lumberjacks are paying (income) tax now, and will pay (sales) tax under this proposal. There is no change.
People operating in the black market don’t pay income tax now, but WILL pay sales tax under this plan when they inevitably spend their illicit income in the legitimate market. That’s why the article singles them out, their circumstances will change in a way most of ours won’t.
* Assuming we are talking about someone working for an actual dog boarding/sitting service who pays income tax on the money they make, and not the neighbor you pay 50 bucks to watch your dog for a whole (which technically makes them a black market dog sitter lol)
Jefferson's Ghost,
Illegal evasion and legal avoidance will be MASSIVE!
To compensate for that revenue loss, Congress MUST raise FAIRtax's starting rate of 30% up (on top of State & Local sales taxes) up to as high as one professional estimate of an astounding 150%%
People who spend their money in the black market wouldn’t be taxed, but those dollars eventually would be taxed when the black marketeers ultimately spend them in the non-black market.
If black market earnings never left the black market there would be no such thing as money laundering.
But there's no reason to single out black marketeers except for having black markets which do not collect sales taxes.
"But there’s no reason to single out black marketeers except for having black markets which do not collect sales taxes."
True. But at least the monies given to black marketers DO, eventually, get taxed. Right now, they pay nothing (excepting perhaps local sales tax).
People who make their money on the black market won’t be paying taxes, period.
People who make their money on the black market don't buy a cup of coffee at Denny's or fill their hearses with gas?
Sure they do. So does everybody else. Why single out black marketeers?
The point they are making is that this broadens the tax base, by getting people to pay taxes who previously didn't. Black Marketers are singled out precisely because they are a group who avoids income tax today.
Overt,
That sounds good but it is not true (not that that bothers the con men marketing the FAIRTax).
The Black Market will become the largest market in the US.
Of course, the whole idea of a black market is racist, so they will all be in jail, right?
Think of the author's words in this light. The government would not care how you got your money (your business), just where you spend it. State governments are very good at collecting sales taxes. Tax evasion would become a 2-person crime, with the one in legal jeopardy being the one that does not benefit from the crime. By design, tax evasion is discouraged.
Our current government cares very much both how you got your money and how spend your money, apart from tax issues.
Just as Elizabeth Warren, Sanders, and the eco-warriors.
They want to micro-manage how you earn, what you earn, and what you spend it on.
long. live. Jeff. Beck. damn
From the article:
“Under the FairTax, however, another federal agency would have to take its place.”
Hmm, not so sure. Forty-five States currently collect sales tax — they already have the systems in place. They can collect the “federal portion” and forward it to the feds. The other five States would have to create a new agency, yes. But, a new federal agency? Sure. About eight people with computers to accept the payments from the States. (Yeah, I know, it should only take one person, but it is still the federal government). About 80,000 folks currently work for the IRS. I like that reduction a lot.
1 worker
1 supervisor of the worker
1 DIE administrator
1 supervisor of the DIE administrator
1 HR worker
1 HR compliance analyst
1 HR supervisor
1 manager of the supervisors
1 Director of (whatever the place is named)
1 Legislative liaison
I get ten, not eight.
++
Point taken, but my intuition tells me you must have missed at least a dozen more. 🙂
Title III, Sec. 302e creates within the Treasury Department a Sales Tax Bureau to replace the IRS. The good thing is that this new bureau won't be notified if you put $10,000 in your bank account or take in too much cash in your business.
JEFFERSON'S GHOST,
No, the FAIRtax is a FEDERAL tax and so a new federal agency is provided for, The Sales Tax Administration Authority (STAA).
AND, the old IRS will surely come back to life, IN ADDITION, when Congress needs to reinstate the Income Tax to make up for the gigantic shortfall in FAIRtax revenue due to evasion and avoidance.,
A fair tax would be a 10% limit on everybody. Not a penny more. I'd limit the states to 5%. A sales tax of 23% on top of the local 10% is bullshit.
What is the logic of this idea? Some biblical number? The tax rate should not be set at an arbitrary figure but rather at a rate that covers the government services provided to its citizens.
"The tax rate should not be set at an arbitrary figure but rather at a rate that covers the government services provided to its citizens.:"
That is assuming that the "services" provided are 1) actually of some benefit to the public, 2) such agencies are run efficiently, and, 3) some other entity, like, say, the States, or even private entities, shouldn't be doing it instead.
The biggest flaw in the Fair Tax, to me, is not really a flaw in the Fair Tax per se. That the FT attempts to cover government spending as is. The FT says nothing about whether the spending needs to be covered or cut as unnecessary, it just tries to pay for the spending in the least intrusive way possible while remaining highly efficient vis-a-vis compliance costs while trying to *not* tax a families "necessities of life".
"The FT says nothing about whether the spending needs to be covered or cut as unnecessary.."
True. It's a change in the way taxes are collected, and nothing more. How Congress wastes it (or not), is another subject.
But the amount of taxes the government takes out of every dollar one spends will be visible to everybody. I think they call that "transparency." I would hope, for instance that when someone purchases, say, a new car for $25,000, that the added $8,000 tax might be noticed.
I would hope, for instance that when someone purchases, say, a new car for $25,000, that the added $8,000 tax might be noticed.
In the ‘another subject’ vein; AFAICT, the government could have Twitter use an undisclosed formula on Hunter Biden’s laptop to do their taxes and no one would give a shit... as long as Elon Musk wasn't in charge.
4) The services are, in some way, proportionally limited or linked to real wealth production.
A project requiring 10X the current world economy next year and without which it would fail may be of benefit to the public, may be executed with perfect efficiency, may not be better performed by some other entity, and still shouldn't get funded regardless of whether it can be.
If you're the anti-regressiviest of anti-regressive taxers, taxing future generations who don't yet have an income is superlatively hypocritical.
What services is the Ukraine war spending providing to it's citizens?
If 10 percent is biblical than it should be in force with your god, the federal government.
Which is how the original rate of 23% was derived. The people who did the initial work researched the consumer spending levels and the government outflows and, trying to account for various effects related to how the taxation system would change things, determined that rate on that consumer spending covered the government spending.
As a rough estimate, what is the government spending as percentage of GDP? Current GDP is about $25.72 trillion, current spending is about $6.27 trillion, spending is about 24.3% of GDP.
So it's...
"How much do you need?"
"How much you got?"
"A fair tax would be a 10% limit on everybody."
Indeed. I, too, would like to see the Federal Budget cut by about 60%. Or more.....
Nothing beats inflation better than an instant 23% inflated price-tag...
NO!!! FU CUT-SPENDING!!!
This is possibly the dumbest idea I've ever seen Republicans come up with. If it took a Constitutional Amendment for Income Tax; It SHOULD require a Constitutional Amendment for Sales Tax. Authority for TWO Taxes instead of ONE????? NO.... JUST F'NO!..
The 16th amendment wasn’t required to collect income taxes, the 16th amendment was needed so the tax didn’t have to be apportioned.
A sales tax, being indirect, never needed to be apportioned and was always authorized under Article 1, Sec 8, Clause 1 (which allows pretty much any sort of tax Congress wants)
We need to repeal that amendment asap. The income tax has been the worst thing they ever did. It drives every overreach and privacy violation of the fed gov. "money laundering" crimes disappear overnight when you get rid of income tax.
it has to go. it's the #1 thing.
It didn't take a constitutional amendment to force interstate sales tax on us. Only the opinions of 5 black robed thieves.
Don't get me started on that. One of the worst decisions ever.
You may have missed the implication of a few facts. That 23% is offset by a few details. Businesses no longer pay taxes. Their expenses go down, making lower prices more possible. Also workers now have more money because they keep their whole paycheck. Then people also are able to purchase some items used, avoiding those taxes, reducing their tax burden.
23% is dreaming. Congress now spends roughly 6 trillion a year, from a productive economy of 17 trillion (23 trillion GDP minus the 6 trillion in government spending that is included in GDP).
That's 35%. With some kind of prebate, it would go up even higher.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it would: a consumption tax would discourage consumption and hence reduce demand. Many people would choose to invest their money instead of spending it. As a result, shortages would be alleviated and (pre-tax) prices would go down.
That means that when you actually decide to buy something, you would pay less overall than you pay under the current income tax based system.
I find it quite humorous that the sales pitch is "pay less overall" but also "it'll retain more tax revenue".. Those are entirely two opposites. Plus; What's the point with investments? Are investment purchases "Sales Tax" free now? Only non-investments are taxed? Who tells the difference and who goes to jail when they can't guess which is which? From where I sit; this just puts everyone's responsibilities onto the suppliers/sellers. As-if those people weren't punished enough.
I didn't say that "it'll retain more tax revenue"; it is supposed to be tax neutral.
But consumption taxes will reduce inflation.
Correct. Just like state sales taxes. Sales taxes are taxes on consumption.
It's easy to tell which is which because that distinction already exists in the tax code.
In a padded cell? In prison? Where DO you sit?
So it’s exactly like income tax; where investment expenses are written off as taxless…. And I’m sure IRS forms accompany that “write off”. So what’s the purpose at the end of the day? Just to make a change for the sake of making changes?
What's more red-tape... A collection of receipts for write-offs or asking every single customer if this purchase will be used as an investment or a consumption?
Where’s the benefit short of shoveling tax responsibility off onto ‘indirect’ service providers? Why not just subsidize H&R block? What’s so great about making suppliers do all the taxes?
It would be determined the same way sales taxes are determined now. When I buy something from Walmart sales tax is collected, when I buy a stock on Webull sales tax is not collected.
The point is not in shifting the burden of who collects the tax, but switching from an income tax to a consumption tax.
Investments are not "expenses" and you cannot write them off from your income tax.
There is no need to "ask" anybody, no need to keep receipts. The distinction between investments and purchases already exists. States already charge sales tax on products and not on the "sale" of securities. The idea that there is any confusion between the two is absurd.
It would be a great simplification of our tax system. Instead of 150 million US tax payers revealing every detail of their jobs and incomes, federal taxes would be paid by only 1 million retail businesses in the US, all of whom already need to file returns anyway and most of whom already collect some form of state tax.
Furthermore, instead of giving refunds for investments, which are subject to political manipulation ("the wealthy don't deserve refunds"), it would directly implement a tax on consumption in the simplest possible way.
"federal taxes would be paid by only 1 million retail businesses in the US"
And there's my biggest disagreement with it...
Only 1 million voters would have a First HAND education of the taxation. Perhaps 'Indirect' tax keeps individual records more secure from government ...BUT... it also comes as a curse in that it hides the taxation being collected from the other 329M people in the same respect. It also pigeon-holes everyone's tax responsibility on just that 1M outfits.
People already think this way; that businesses are just HOGGING all the money even though they fail and go bankrupt so many times. What's the Nazi-inflicted nation going to look like when only 1M massive taxpayers are voting against 329M who thinks that other 1M are just greedy?
In summation; LEARNING doesn't occur from hiding consequences.
I'm sorry, the meaning of the word "pay" seems to confuse you.
Everybody in the US who every buys anything would have a "First HAND education of the taxation", because everybody PAYS the tax. It will appear on every store receipt, every day, every transaction.
Only retailers forward the tax paid by the consumer to the government.
Yes, and a big advantage of the national sales tax is that it REMINDS PEOPLE EVERY DAY OF HOW MUCH THEY SPEND IN TAXES AND HOW MUCH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SPENDS. Everybody. Including the very poor.
So Income taxes doesn't appear on pay-stubs?
Isn't printing a Sales Tax on every purchase just MORE paper work and middle-men than pay-stubs?
So retailers do all the taxes of the people. How does that put people in the same 'first hand' knowledge field?
Everything you're selling is either worse or the same.
TJJ2000,
That's a 30% price increase, not 23%.
The con men who came up with the 23% did so to make it "appear" less burdensome. If the price BEFORE adding FAIRtax is $100, you add $30, a total of $130. The $30 FAIRtax is "only" 23% of the $130. Do you have your hand covering your wallet now?
None of this matters if they dont cut spending.
Yes, but talking about this is easy and cutting spending is hard, and they are lazy.
Cutting spending is easy.
Just take a chart of the current cabinet positions, and eliminate all that are not specifically authorized by the constitution.
(remember, eliminate, not cut. No program cut ever actually goes away)
Like this;
Department of defense - Article one, section eight
Education department - ???, abolish it
Treasury department - Article one, section eight
Labor department - ???, abolish it
(the rest of the cabinet is left as an exercise for the reader)
A USA instead of a National Sozialist(Nazi)-Empire?????
OMG! We're all going to die! /s 🙂
Well Said. Restore the USA! Kick-out the Nazi's.
Great exercise on paper but what about in real life? Hard work for a lazy Congress.
This is the Reason comments section; real life does not apply.
It doesn't matter because it won't pass the Senate or Biden even if by some miracle it passes the House.
But it is important to have discussions as to what is wrong with the system while proposing something that attempts to right the oh-so-many wrongs inherent in the income tax.
I have bets it'll have bipartisan support.
Because it includes Universal Basic Income (pre-bate) checks.
The income tax is over 100 years old, and I see no sign of it leaving in the near future. Many people will see this for some kind of bait and switch con, which it maybe. Selling a 23% sales tax will not be easy and the rationalizing by the dropping of the income tax may not be as straightforward as Republicans think. (Think Bernie Sanders trying to sell national health care, you will be taxed but your employer will give you back their health care contribution, no sell.)
What is disappointing is this idea of let's do something different rather than Congress cleaning up the tax code it created. It reminds me of some people who start out to run a marathon and find out that running is hard, so they think biking a century will be better until they start. In the end, they often end up never finishing anything.
What is disappointing is this idea of let’s do something different rather than Congress cleaning up the tax code it created.
Define "income" in under 1000 words.
Money that a person receives for personal use.
There's nothing inherently complex about defining "income" we have simply chosen to make the definition complex by creating umpteen categories of income that we tax differently.
Money that a person receives for personal use.
Bzzzzzzt! Wrong.
Try again. You’re not even close.
There’s nothing inherently complex about defining “income” we have simply chosen to make the definition complex by creating umpteen categories of income that we tax differently.
I should be fair here and address the second part of your comment.
We chose to make the definition complex... because it becomes complex.
People can receive "wealth", items of wealth, or items or compensation which definitionally can be defined as "income".
Income HAS to become complex because there become all various methods of 'avoiding taxation' via various forms of compensation which don't necessarily translate to "money".
A sales tax avoids all of it, and...AND, most important, keeps the government out of your personal business, and your bank account.
AND, most important, keeps the government out of your personal business, and your bank account.
This is a much bigger deal than most people think.
For Full-Time consumers only... Anyone who wants to sell anything it punishes them.
Someone selling used goods on Facebook would not have to pay the tax.
Selling new retail goods, yes, you would have to collect the Fair Tax (just like you're supposed to have to collect state sales taxes in most places). But, under the Fair Tax proposal, 0.25% of the collected Fair Tax is meant to be retained by the retailer to cover their administrative costs. The idea is that retailers in most (45) states are already collecting state/local sales taxes, so you would simply include the federal Fair Tax collections, too, remitting them to the state sales tax board along with your state/local sales taxes. The State would remit the collected Fair Tax to the federal government (and the State keeps 0.25% to cover the administrative costs they would face, too).
It's a lot less problematic than the interstate sales taxes in place now for online retailers.
So I don't see how it punishes retailers.
I don't see that it's any different at all. Taxes are collected per purchasers State tax code before and after the federal change. Unless of course State's switch over to an income tax.
The whole state-pays-it-forward nonsense is unconstitutional.
And it punishes retailers by making used goods fantastically more desirable than new.
Sales-tax is a god-awful concept even at the state level. But very few states have sales taxes over 10%.
If we are in the realm of 50%+ sales tax (which is what it would have to be when you add state and federal together) then suddenly not buying new goods becomes a fantastically profitable *and legal* tax-dodge.
You don't seriously believe that a Fair Tax would result in an abolition of financial reporting requirements.
I, WOODCHIPPER,
Except that may well be NOT true.
If the def gov (STAA) decides to audit consumers (and they have the leeway to do so in the Bill) such audits would get into EVERY aspect of your finances.
I agree a sales tax is a preferable, but maintain that the concept of income is no more complex than we choose to make it.
The existence of a medium of exchange has largely eliminated barter from our economy, so to make use of the wealth contained in that item of value you have you’ll need to sell it. For money. That you receive. For personal use. Go ahead and sell it on eBay, they’ll report it to the IRS as income.
The complexity you describe comes not from the concept of income, but from the impetus to tax it. The same complexity will inevitably invade the concept of a “sale” when that’s taxed instead.
But again, I agree a sales tax is preferable.
"the concept of income is no more complex than we choose to make it."
You're correct, in a way. But the complexity comes from all the ways people try to *not* pay income taxes. If income is from wages, then some people will arrange with "employers" to not pay them wages, but rather they will "gift" each other money and/or labor. That sort of thing.
One of the beauties of the consumption tax (like the Fair Tax) is that defining income isn't necessary. We do need to define and enforce "retail sales", but that's between business and the government. The vast majority of individuals would have basically zero paperwork, no need to track income or expenses, no need to file anything except the annual Houshold Size form, listing the number of people in your household (names and SSNs) to determine the prebate to be sent to your household.
In most states, sales are already taxed, so a federal system can piggy-back onto that.
Or we could just go back to State's paying apportioned federal taxes.
We could, but that would create the wrong economic incentives for states.
Or maybe The Union of State's government 'Federal' concept was to tax the member-states instead of pretending the nation was a Union of People which probably directly lead to the ever-growing Nazism(National Sozialism) currently going on.
The Union also only allowed land owners to vote, had a balanced budget that was a few percent of GDP, didn't have primaries, and had states appoint Senators directly. All of those were arguably good ideas, and all of them have gone out the door.
We don't live in early 19th century America anymore. Given the federal budget and spending that we have, Fair Tax is a reasonable improvement on the income tax system we have.
Going back to apportionment is not going to work right now. If it does again in the future, all the better, but that's a separate political discussion.
AFAIK, the only direct tax apportioned between the states that was ever collected was the per-head tax for the Mexican-American War, the one that Henry David Thoreau went to jail rather than pay. Each head of household owed $X per family member, and 3/5 of $X per slave, so the total from each state would automatically be proportional to the population as counted for allocating seats in Congress.
The only way to do an income tax (or a tax on anything else except human heads) apportioned between the states would be for each state legislature to pass a tax law, guessing at the rate needed (it would be different for each state), collect the tax, and pass the money on to Washington, with any difference between the target and the actual amount collected made up from the state treasury. There was no way authorized to force the states to do their part, and they never did.
And so before the 16th Amendment, nearly all federal revenue came from customs and excise taxes. (The Civil War income tax was an exception, but that was only possible because Lincoln intimidated the Supreme Court to get 4 years unhindered by the Constitution.) There's a limit on how high those rates can go before the people either evade the tax or revolt outright - just as they did in the Revolutionary War. The result was that the federal government was always woefully underfunded. That might have been a good thing, except that the Treasury started off with Revolutionary War debts it couldn't cover, and the debt grew with each Indian war and the War of 1812. Many soldiers waited decades for back pay and finally settled for land somewhere out there past the frontier.
There is no provision of the Constitution that allows the federal government to be funded by the states.
It was – at the time it was created – to be funded by taxes on businesses, as the Founders did not want to permit Roman-style publicanisim/tax-farming (of the sort referenced in the Bible and at times practiced in old Europe) & the level of bureaucracy and the sort of financial-system required for an income tax was not in existence at the time.
Let me try to be as clear as possible.
If Nancy Pelosi (or anyone, I'm not trying to pick on poor old Nancy) starts a foundation in her retirement that pays her a modest salary of $52,000 a year, but part of her compensation is a vacation home in the Poconos, a brand new Mercedes S-Class and a private jet on standby that she can use for both personal and foundation business, any time, anywhere, and dear Nancy is only taxed on $52,000 a year, even I, as an embittered, anti-tax Libertarian is going to stand up and say, "Now hold on a second..."
How does a Sales Tax make that any different if it's "part of her compensation" she never spent cash to get.
Nancy Pelosi will buy things, she will stock her refrigerator, subscribe to Netflix, purchase jewelry, fill her car with gas, eat at Chez Expensivo. She will pay into the system.
The illegal immigrant who buys a cup of coffee will pay into the system.
The black marketeer who purchases a gold chain at the corner jewelry store will pay into the system.\
And the government doesn't have to keep eyeballs on anyone's bank account, what they spend their day doing, where they're moving their money to and from, where they received their income, how they received it, and if it can be loosely defined as income when it's not "money".
Again, I'm not "pro taxation", I'm pro a system of taxation that... presuming we have to have it (and realistically we do) that it's both as fair, even handed and keeps the government out of people's daily business.
Who makes sure the "corner jewelry store" pays sales tax?
I don't see any benefit to it short of hiding taxation behind price-tags.
Someone would have paid the Fair Tax..."part of her compensation is a vacation home in the Poconos, a brand new Mercedes S-Class and a private jet". Someone bought the vacation home for her, so someone paid the Fair Tax on it (unless it was a used mansion). Someone bought the brand new Mercedes, so someone paid the Fair Tax on it. When someone rents a private jet for her, the service charges the Fair Tax, so someone pays it.
What do I care whether someone pays for those things for her or whether they hand her a pile of cash and she pays it herself. It got paid.
You just made a fantastic, cogent argument against income tax.
On the flipside, if a working-class family in Europe is discovered to be the descendants of a family who had a rare, valuable artwork stolen by the Nazis in WWII, and then that artwork is repatriated and returned to them, and the state comes after them and says, "Yeah, um, about that, we value that art work at $2.5 million US, so you owe us *taps out keys on adding machine* $1.1 million US dollars, payable by Friday" that's a travesty of justice.
Here's your government in action regarding inherited artwork.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/arts/design/a-catch-22-of-art-and-taxes-starring-a-stuffed-eagle.html
One branch insists it cannot be sold because it's got a stuffed bald eagle included and another branch, the IRS, demanding taxation for it's valuation of 29 million.
Well Said...
And to put it straight forward. Sales Tax *IS* income tax for the seller.
The only thing getting done here is *HIDDING* an individuals consumption tax behind the supplier. Just as fuel tax does. How many people really understand that $1.00 of every gallon of gas is going to the federal government versus seeing that $1.00 of every 15-minutes of labor going to the federal government.
I still vote it's a BAD idea.
"Sales Tax *IS* income tax for the seller"
No, it's not.
And to put it straight forward. Sales Tax *IS* income tax for the seller.
No it's not.
No, it isn’t. It’s not his income that is taxed, it’s the sales price. The seller’s income can be $0 and the tax must still be paid. And it is paid by the buyer, not the seller.
A sales tax is a consumption tax, not an income tax. If you don’t consume, you don’t pay the sales tax.
Paid by the buyer; collected by the seller. So why have the middle-man? Just tax the buyer directly.
Because the seller already collects and needs to submit this information anyway, both to the federal and state governments. And taxing the seller can be done without disclosure of any information on buyers and hence is far more privacy preserving.
Taxing the buyer "directly" on purchases means 100x as many tax returns, and the buyer can't realistically be audited on their consumptive purchases.
Exactly... It's shoveling off everyone's tax responsibilities onto the sellers. And anyone who sells anything gets to play the role and just about everyone will sell something at some point in time. It's just a dog chasing it's own tail.
That’s not how a sales tax works. A sales tax is a tax on the *seller*, which the seller than charges-forward to the buyer.
The obligation to pay is still with the seller....
DAVE_A.
The FAIRtax (like any sales tax) is IMPOSED upon the buyer.
The Seller is obligated to COLLECT & REMIT (not “pay”) it to the fed gov.
Yeah... And tax isn't citizen tax at all it's just Government obligated to COLLECT & REMIT it back to the people with the proper paperwork... Am I right? /s...
Apparently the money train needs more paper-pushing middle-men.
Income: Any benefit OR thing of value that is received, other than in trade for property. In cases of trade for property, any benefit or thing of value that exceeds the actual-value of the property being traded for (eg, profit).
What a shock, the concern troll is concerned.
Right now, we incur massive new debt every year and we have policies in place that encourage consumption and discourage saving. All of that means that you are already implicitly paying a huge hidden tax.
A sales tax could address all of those issues, whether or not the income tax is abolished.
MODERATION4EVER,
It’s a bait-and-switch to install the FAIRtax and then bring back the Income Tax in addition and wind up with BOTH taxes, thus giving Congress two sources of revenue so they can UN-Constitutionally redistribute even MORE of the minority’s wealth.
As also noted by Cato Institute (see https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/a-primer-on-the-flat-tax-and-fundamental-tax-reform/), FT leaves us more vulnerable to winding up with both a NEW Income Tax and FT (instead of adding 20-30% on top of the FT’s already high explicit 30% rate). Congress would surely repeal FT’s laughable Sunset Clause and (with the 16th Amendment surely still firmly in place) would use the excuse of the large revenue shortfall from evasion/avoidance to enact a new Income Tax which I believe is Congress’ ultimate objective of stealing even more of our money to redistribute to those who will vote for them.
Social Security and Medicare have dedicated payroll taxes which I presume would be kept as they are.
Otherwise this is dead on arrival and is a ploy to get rid of SS and Medicare.
Just be honest for once Republicans.
Republicans do not want to get rid of Social Security or Medicare. They've never tried. They've never even stated that as an ideal or goal.
libertarians on the other hand... we want to eliminate those entirely.
Under the current system, workers are taxed separately to fund Social Security and Medicare. With fewer workers, a higher rate is needed to fund SS/Medicare. The Fair Tax dedicates a percentage of tax receipts to the SS/Medicare funds, permanently eliminating that problem
So it's more communist? What a great direction to go in.
"Social Security and Medicare have dedicated payroll taxes which I presume would be kept as they are."
Well there is your problem, you presume (incorrectly). And you also posted links to kiddy porn to this site and were banned for it.
This should be a lesson to everyone that you might as well just shun SPB. He is a kiddy-porn trafficking creep, and when he isn't posting those links to the dark web that sate his dark desires, he is posting shit he doesn't know about.
SARAH PALIN'S BUTTPLUG 2,
No, SS & Medicare programs are still in place, but there would no longer be any SS & Medicare Tax, the FAIRtax would fund everything,
So now the poor pay NO Income Tax (But receive huge Net tax credits) and they would no longer have to pay for their SS/Medicare benefits because the minority 20% would pay for it all. Karl Marl is laughing in Hell!
Like most discussions by the media, Lancaster gets a number of issues completely wrong, then uses the wrongs to downplay the Fair Tax.
For example, despite the big red slash through the IRS, the Fair Tax does not really presume to eliminate the IRS entirely. Rather, it images the agency dramatically reduced in scope such that it virtually no one except businesses will ever be subjected to IRS audits or other attention. The Fair Tax IRS will have two basic jobs: enforcing the collection of the consumption tax by retail business (who are actually paid to collect the taxes, as 0.25% of the collected tax are earmarked for business overhead related to collection and remittance); and, investigating prebate filings for fraud (more on that in a moment).
For example, "Under a FairTax system, those households would marginally increase their take-home pay but take it on the chin at the grocery store. To account for the regressive structure of a pure consumption tax, the Fair Tax Act provides for a monthly stipend, which supporters call a "prebate." All Americans living under the federal poverty line would receive a "sales tax rebate" to offset their monthly tax liability.
The is wrong on several counts. The prebate, like the current standard deduction, is intended to exempt low-wage earners from paying taxes. More specifically, it is intended to make sure that NO ONE pays taxes on the "basics of life", which is defined as poverty-level spending (because your basics-of-life may be different than my basics-of-life). As such, ALL households will receive the prebate. Each household will need to file one document with the IRS annually (or when circumstances change). This form will list the number of people in household and their respective SSNs and the address or account to which the prebate will be sent monthly. This form will constitute pretty much the only time a normal person will likely ever encounter an IRS agent, should there be a question about whether you have the proper headcount.
For example, "Under the FairTax, however, another federal agency would have to take its place. Currently, the Social Security Administration dispenses monthly benefits to nearly 70 million people; the Fair Tax Act would increase that number to include every single adult under the poverty line." Surely the Treasury that can handle sending out tax refunds to 100M households can manage to do the same 12 times per year?
For example, "The federal government must also collect and maintain income information to determine who qualifies for the prebate. Americans who live off accrued wealth instead of salaries or wages might receive a monthly stipend they don't need, or some other government agency would need to collect the same kind of broad wealth and income data that the IRS currently collects."
This, as mentioned above, is simply wrong. The IRS does not need to figure out your income, where it comes from, how much it is, how much of it is legal, what you buy or anything. EVERY household will receive the prebate, because EVERY household is assumed to need to spend poverty-level money to survive. And the
Fair Tax is designed to never have any houshold pay for the first poverty-level spending tranch. The Fair Tax is designed to tax only "luxury" purchases, as defined to be "retail purchases above the poverty-line".
For example, "Even if supporters could get it through both houses of Congress and signed by a president, it couldn't into effect until the 16th Amendment, which officially gave Congress the authority to tax income, was repealed." This is true, but only because the bill as written include this clause as a way to prevent the Government from instituting a large consumption tax while still retaining the income tax.
Thank you for this. My blood was boiling as I read Lancaster's "analysis".
FFS, how is it possible that the *libertarians*- who claim to want to challenge the tax regime- don't even understand how the Fair Tax works?
How can you claim to be a serious platform pushing serious policy, and be incapable of a few hours of research to understand how it works? It isn't that damn hard- they have a website and everything.
It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It
Overt,
Because if you read the propaganda they fill their website and communications with, your head would be filled with BS, NOT with facts.
If you want to learn more about how it really works, see https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/blank-cee5
Except that – if you go by the FairTax Book – it doesn’t work that way.
There are no prebate filings, everybody gets UBI (er, ‘prebates’)…..
And the states – not the feds – collect the tax, then pay it forward to the federal government (assuming of course, that the state actually feels like doing so – imagine a year where California decides they aren’t paying because they don’t like who the President is)….
It's an awful and unconstitutional idea.
To make it more clear, Lancaster is wrong about many things.
The Fair Tax would *not* require the IRS to collect data on family incomes, because it does not need that data to conduct the Fair Tax prebate or to collect the Fair Tax.
The prebate is *not* limited to people under the poverty-line. Instead it is paid to every household based on the number of people in the household, regardless of household income (so that the IRS does not need to know household income data). This, like the current standard deduction effectively untaxes all spending each household makes up to the poverty-line. If a household spends less than the poverty-line monthly, then they are essentially paying their Fair Tax on the purchases with the prebate money. If a household spends more than the poverty-line, they will be paying the tax out of their own pocket, once their prebate is used up. There is no record-keeping needed. Everyone just pays the Fair Tax on all retail purchases with the prebate in their pocket, and the poverty-line spending limits all just "comes out in the wash".
"Americans who live off accrued wealth instead of salaries or wages might receive a monthly stipend they don't need" Question: do these people get to claim the standard deduction on their current taxes? Prebate is the same thing relative to a consumption tax.
The standard deduction is non-refundable.
If you owe no taxes, it does nothing for you.
The prebate is UBI in a tax-reform suit.
MPERCY,
Your last point is not accurate. The FAIRtax would come into existence immediately. It has a laughable poison pill that says that if the 16th Amendment is NOT repealed in 7 years, the FAIRtax would be automatically repealed. Congress would simply repeal this poison pill.
The Prebate purports to merely repay the poor for any FT they pay (as if we all agree with that), but it would actually pay them far MORE by “assuming” the poor spend more than the underlying HHS Poverty Guidelines and that they will pay FT on all of their purchases (but they WON’T) – see http://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge#!ft-increases-tax-welfare/copuTo
How about some actual (if round) numbers? US retail and food service was about $8 trillion last year. The feds spent $7 trillion. That means a sales tax rate of about 90%. And that means with state and local taxes, we would pay double the stated price for everything.
Humorously; We already do now.
But most of it is HIDDEN behind suppliers/sellers taxes so no one really sees it.
Exactly the thing a Sales Tax does and the plan is to extend that hiding of taxation?
Some 75%+ of federal revenue comes from individual income taxes (when you count the payroll taxes as such)...
Corporate taxes and other 'hidden' taxes are so miniscule as to be almost irrelevant - the federal government is almost exclusively funded by income tax.
If that income tax had to instead be collected as a tax on retail transactions, the pricing impact would be enormous.
the federal government is almost exclusively funded by income tax.
No, the federal government is funded primarily by deficit spending.
2020, sure (thanks Chump)...
Most years the deficit is less-than the total tax haul (eg, 4.x TN in taxes, 1.3TN in new debt for 2022)...
Of course, as any good conspiracy theorist knows, the day after the FAIR TAX passes, the democrats will insist on eliminating real money and force everyone to use electronic payments "for open and fair monitoring of spending subject to taxation".
The point is to force Republican representatives to take a stance.
Perhaps instead of endless partisan infighitng, the GOP should start wondering why it has lost so much ground among the rich/near-rich & why places that voted red for decades now vote blue?
Further 'purity tests' will only push the party further and further away from the votes it needs to be competitive on an ongoing basis, rather than only being able to win when the Dems have bad luck....
when the Dems
have bad luckdon't cheat well enough.Fixed it.
Nobody's cheating. And especially, nobody's cheating in the 'everyone from here goes to college' zips that used to be Republican but are now solid-blue thanks to 2016.
The post-2016 agenda just sucks donkeyballs unless you're a burnt out factory worker from Ohio.
Just exempt rent and everything that is food-stamp eligible from the tax.
"Just exempt rent and everything that is food-stamp eligible from the tax."
Nope. The point is that (almost) nothing is exempt to make the collections as smooth and evenly spread out as possible. We give you money to cover the taxes you would have to pay up to the poverty line. Then *you* chose what is the "necessities of life" for your family. If you want to live in a tent and not pay any rent, then spend your money on steak and lobster, that's up to you. If you want to live in a nicer apartment (say, with a pool) with higher rent and make up the difference by eating ramen noodles, that's up to you.
Creating a huge government entitlement program to compensate for the regressive nature is not the way to go if you want to shrink government.
States already have different sales tax rates for different items, in particular food; it's easy.
Not collecting sales tax on rent is also easy and libertarian, since it means that landlords (often small landlords) don't have to deal with taxation and that rental relationships can be entirely private and voluntary as far as the federal government is concerned.
Do you think that collecting the tax on rent and remitting it (and keeping 0.25% for the trouble) would be somehow more onerous than the current tax code compliance costs for a landlord? I've been a landlord, and it was the only time I felt like I needed a professional to do my taxes. Collecting and remitting a straight tax on the rent would have been so much simpler.
I didn't say it was "more onerous". I'm opposing the idea of a "prebate", because I object in principle to the government sending unearned money to anybody; such a program would simply turn into UBI. And I object to calling it a "prebate" because it is not, actually, "prebating" money, it is a potentially unlimited government handout.
Besides the editing error (missing "go"), how the fiery fuck could you possibly make the logical error of thinking the 16th amendment REQUIRES Congress to legislate, and not repeal, an income tax??!!
It is a requirement of the bill. Well, technically, the bill sunsets if the 16th Amendment isn't repealed within 7 years. But previous versions of this bill didn't go into effect until the amendment was repealed. Again, Lancaster is pretty sloppy with his writing.
ROBERTA,
Not true.
It can and would go into effect immediately.
the Bill should not make it effective until after the 16th Amendment is permanently repealed. Otherwise, we would wind up with the FAIRtax AND a new Income Tax.
One thing may not be very clear about the Fair Tax prebate.
The prebate is very much like the standard deduction. It makes much the same tradeoffs. Both recognize that some things maybe just shouldn't be taxed, so they attempt to make the first $XX of income (spending) tax free, without any questions. Everyone gets it if they want it.
The government really doesn't want people to itemize. It's a pain in the ass for everyone involved. Itemizing encourages people to cheat on their taxes (inflating the value of donations to charity maybe being the most common thing).
One of the big changes in the Trump tax changes was increasing the size of the standard deduction such that many people who previously would have itemized can simply take the standard deduction. This happened to me this past tax year, for the first time in 30 years the standard deduction was better that itemizing (SALT limits, primarily, plus lower (zero) mortgage interest because I'm old and my mortgage got paid off).
It's certainly true that sometimes the standard deduction is *larger* than the actual itemized deductions a person is entitled too.
But the IRS (tax code) realizes that *it's not worth it* to argue.
Let some people "get away with it" for a few bucks, because some people will not bother to itemize when they *might* be able to eke out a few bucks more. that the standard deduction.
Reducing the number of returns with itemized deductions reduces the need to audit those. It reduces the incentive for people to cheat, and thus create audits. Overall, it makes the tax collection more efficient. It eliminates the need to submit (or at least retain) reems of paperwork to justify the deductions.
The prebate works in much the same way. We're not going to worry if someone doesn't spend all their money and pockets some of their prebate. We're not going to make people document their spending or income. OTOH, we're not going to get into the game of exempting things, because then the lobbyists will all line up to get *their* thing exempted too.
The prebate is covering all the "normal" things people want to exempt, so long as they are the "necessities of life" as you chose to spend you first $XX of money on.
Amen. Well said.
Calling it a "prebate" is wrong, since it is not actually tied to any taxes paid.
What it is is a new entitlement and a form of UBI, and politicians will treat it as such, gradually increasing it to get more and more votes.
A better choice is not to collect sales taxes on "essential" items. That would be easy because states already have different tax rates for different kinds of items, and because the federal government already categorizes products for food stamps (SNAP).
Not collecting taxes is the libertarian thing to do; giving people monthly checks from the government is not.
"Calling it a “prebate” is wrong, since it is not actually tied to any taxes paid."
It is a prebate because it is paid prior to paying sales taxes, instead of a rebate, where you are refunded after paying them.
"A better choice is not to collect sales taxes on “essential” items."
No it isn't. Why exactly do you think that the politicians who will succumb to the temptation of increasing the prebate, won't succumb to the temptation of exempting more and more items?
But you get the “prebate” even if you don’t pay any sales tax (e.g., because you live in a log cabin and grow your own food). Hence it is not actually linked to paying a tax.
Sales tax exemptions make it impossible to give people more money than they would have paid in taxes. This fake "prebate" can turn into an arbitrarily high UBI by just adjusting the numbers a little.
I sure hope so!
Increasing the prebate means more government spending and increasingly high handouts to people who haven't earned them, something that is inimical to liberty.
Exempting more and more items means less government revenue and lower taxes, something libertarians favor.
But you get the “prebate” even if you don’t pay any sales tax (e.g., because you live in a log cabin and grow your own food). Hence it is not actually linked to paying a tax.
How many people would fail to buy enough stuff to come out ahead here? With acknowledgement to H.L. Mencken, is it your worry that somewhere, someone is going to get more from government than they pay in taxes? Would you have the same concern that someone might get more medical care paid for than they pay in medical insurance premiums?
A $10000 "prebate" is actually only a "prebate" for people making more than $43000. For people making less than that, it's (partially) a UBI and discourages work.
And there is no limit to how far progressives can adjust that upwards. A $20000 "prebate" is a UBI for the majority of the population.
Insurance companies need to make a profit, so they make sure that they don't pay out more on average than they take in in premiums. That link does not exist for the government. The government can turn prebates into a $50k/year UBI and finance it by printing money, debt, and increasing taxes on corporation/businesses.
Furthermore, the whole point of insurance is that with low probability and by random chance, you get more than you pay in. This "prebate" can give large classes of the population more than they pay in with certainty.
As a principle, ‘Government giving people checks just for being alive’ is wrong. Charge an accurate tax rate, and you don’t have to rebate or prebate anything.
What you consider essential I might consider superfluous. And vice-versa. And that's the rub. And that's where lobbyists come into the picture.
As it is, the FT answer every "But *this* item is essential, and shouldn't be taxed." claim is to be able to say "If it is essential to your family, then it must be among the poverty-level spending choices your family is making, so it is already tax-free (net) to your family. What's the problem?"
MPERCY,
The Prebate is a deceptive device to redistribute even more wealth.
The Prebate purports to merely repay the poor for any FT they pay (as if we all agree with that), but it would actually pay them far MORE by “assuming” the poor spend more than the underlying HHS Poverty Guidelines and that they will pay FT on all of their purchases (but they WON’T) – see http://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge#!ft-increases-tax-welfare/copu
The Fair Tax Act would not require the repeal of the 16th Amendment. Title IV of the Act states that HR 25 would sunset in 7 years if the 16th Amendment is not repealed.
It seems like the point of that is to make sure that a future Congress has a harder time implementing a national sales tax and income tax. Most countries, and all in the OECD other than the U.S., have a VAT and income taxes, I think.
JASONT20.
But its a joke. Congrees would simply repeal that poison pill provision and the FAIRtax would NOT be automatically repealed.
Then, Congress brings out a NEW Income Tax in addition to the FAIRtax.
Apparently, the current bill has changed tack since it was first introduced. Earlier versions of the Bill said that the FT, if passed, could not take effect until after the 16th was repealed. I guess the more recent incarnation has this 7 year sunset instead if the 16th is not repealed. Both meant to try to prevent government implementing the FT on top of the income tax.
The biggest wins of this change would be recovering the productivity currently wasted on our current byzantine tax system, particularly the fact that today every business decision needs to be analyzed for its tax consequences.
Buy or lease? Hire employees or temporary contractors? Carry inventory so you can be sure of your lead times or risk losing a customer if you can't deliver? Save your earnings to finance expansion, or take out a loan? Every goddamned one of these decisions is distorted by the IRS.
-jcr
No, the biggest win of this proposal is that it taxes consumption and rewards savings/investments.
Are investments Sales Tax Free? What good is savings when everything is so expensive due to Sales Tax? Fiat money is still just a median and its value is lost in inflation the same as its lost to taxation.
Yes, just like they are now.
You get interest/return on investment on your pre-tax dollars.
Government inflating the money supply can be viewed as a form of "taxation". As such, "inflation" is a taxation on cash holdings and savings, which is different from both a sales tax and an income tax. Inflation is also a giant government handout to banks and Wall St.
So, you can view inflation as a tax, but it's a far more destructive form of taxation than a sales tax because it affects the economy in far worse ways.
If the government inflates the money supply how is it that Sales Tax exempts that effect? The money still gets useless with an income tax or a sales tax. Are we to auto-assume just because the government inflicts a sales tax that it no long will inflate the money supply?
You implied that a sales tax leads to price inflation, but it does not: it, in fact, reduces demand and hence reduces prices.
Whether the government separately causes price inflation via monetary inflation is an unrelated question.
Outside the governments counter-fitting exercises. The claim that, "reduces demand and hence reduces prices" doesn't hold much water if any at all. Mass production fulfilling high demand is what generally ends up reducing prices.
Ah, yes, that explains recent inflation! In 2021, people forgot how to mass produce stuff! /sarc
That's AOC-level economic idiocy.
What an absolutely terrible idea. Will people be excited about paying 23% plus the local sales tax on everything they buy? It's embarrassing that anyone would actually propose this.
You obviously haven't read the proposal.
JOE JONAS,
That's a 30% sales tax NOT 23%.
FAIRtax con men calculate the 23% to make it appear lower than 30% by dividing the tax in dollars by the total INCLUDING the tax.
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REAL Fair Tax...
If you use Gov-Gun Packing service you pay for Gov-Gun packing service. If you refuse to pay for the service you go to jail for stealing it.
Oh wait; That would be exactly like NO Tax but instead a free-market system. The "fairest" tax system of them all.
Application of another way to STEAL doesn't fix the STEALING. And frankly; What the Sales Tax does is puts everyone's tax liability at the helm of the suppliers. It's MORE 'indirect' and easier to hide the theft. I'm not a fan of income tax but at least it's 'direct' and everyone see's how stupid it is and might want to vote to change it. Whereas 'indirect' taxation hides it from the consumer voters and leaves the suppliers votes in the dark. The one's who are really taking the THEFT first hand.
What's "indirect" about it? You'll be reminded of it every time you go to the store and buy anything.
Income taxes discourage economic activities that generate value. Consumption taxes discourage economic activities that destroy value. That's why consumption taxes are preferable to income taxes.
You’ll be reminded – taking for granite that’s a legal requirement in the proposal and that it’s never changed later on, on some “limit the red-tape” claims. We don't get a Federal Road Tax on our Fuel receipts do we? How exactly does income tax limit economic activity worse than too-expensive products? This just smells like a dog chasing it’s tail to waste a lot of time and energy that could be used to cut the tail OFF…
That’s because retailers don’t pay those taxes directly, they are paid by their suppliers.
Gas stations list sales taxes on your receipts because they know the exact amount because they directly remit them back to the government.
Neither tax “limits” economic activity. But if you tax something, you get less of it. If you tax labor, labor is discouraged; that is a bad thing because labor is a productive activity. If you tax consumption, consumption is discouraged; that is a good thing (within reason) because consumption is a destructive activity.
"because consumption is a destructive activity."
Paraphrased... Why can't you people just be happy with a baloney sandwich and an AM/FM radio!
A "baloney sandwich and an AM/FM radio" is all you're going to have if we continue down the current path of taxing productive activities and overspending massively.
If you're going to tax anything in an economy, tax consumption, not income. That's the correct tax system if you actually want people to become wealthy.
Consumption taxes discourage the purchasing of new goods and participation in the economy.
There is no value created by stuffing your mattress with $100s.
Income taxes attach to something *no one* is willing to reduce as a means of lowering their tax burden. Inflation encourages spending or investing over mattress-stuffing 'savings' (which at this point is what a bank savings account is, FWIW).
Both of those are overall positives.
Even if supporters could get it through both houses of Congress and signed by a president, it couldn't into effect until the 16th Amendment, which officially gave Congress the authority to tax income, was repealed.
Uh, why? The 16th Amendment gives Congress the authority to tax income, not a requirement to do that.
More to the point, though, is how the article noted some of the details that undercut the appeal of the Fair Tax. Which really shows the main problem with it. It is a simple proposed solution to a complex problem (how to best fund government). Its proponents tout the simplicity without noting the many questions raised about how it would actually work.
Take the "prebate" idea as an example. As well as the issues the author of this article discussed, what happens to people near the poverty line but still above it? It is already a problem with means tested government benefits that it weakens the incentive to work to increase one's income.
Consumption taxes at a national level are not a new idea, either. The U.S. is one of the few developed countries to not use a value-added tax system. The difference between VAT and sales taxes is that a VAT is applied at every step of a supply chain, where the tax is paid on the gross margin. That is, a business buys raw materials for $5 dollars. The seller pays tax on that $5. The business makes a product and sells it for $20. It then pays tax on the $15 gross margin it got for selling the product. VATs have their pros and cons over income and other sales taxes. There are always trade-offs between different tax systems.
"Take the “prebate” idea as an example. As well as the issues the author of this article discussed, what happens to people near the poverty line but still above it? It is already a problem with means tested government benefits that it weakens the incentive to work to increase one’s income."
The prebate is not means-tested. Every household receives it, because it is assumed that every household spends money every month buying the necessities of life. Because we generally use the poverty-line as the demarcation for the definition of "necessities of life", the prebate makes that spending net tax free.
But there is no reporting of income or spending by the individual consumer. The tax is simply paid on every transaction by everyone, and everyone gets their prebate to cover the taxes on that bare minimum (poverty-level) spending.
This is just like the current standard deduction that exempts a set portion of income, rich or poor. The 2022 standard deduction is $12,950 for single filers, $25,900 for joint filers; the poverty-line is $13,590 for individuals, $18,310 for a household of two, and $23,030 for a household of 3. You can see the numbers are comparable.
Yes, some people will (temporarily, at least) be able to *not* spend their prebate, making it a direct payment not tied to taxes paid. But that's not worth worrying about given how it smooths out so much, plus I expect that eventually those dollars do get spent.
"All Americans living under the federal poverty line would receive a 'sales tax rebate' to offset their monthly tax liability."
As other commenters have noted, that's incorrect. Everyone would get the prebate.
To put it a different way, every man, woman, and child in the US would receive a cradle-to-grave monthly federal welfare (or, if you prefer, Universal Basic Income) check.
What could possibly go wrong?
Somewhere, sure, there is a grizzly adams living in a cabin in the woods growing and hunting all his food with a bow and arrow he made from a tree and some bird feathers who never ever comes into town to buy anything. That guy would be getting a UBI.
The rest of the people, people who live in households that actually buy groceries, clothes, cars, gas, houses, electronics, electricity...AND spend poverty-level money or more would hand those prebate dollars right back to the government. But the net effect of that would be that those poverty-level dollars spent would be net tax-free spending, with effective rates increasing asymptotically beyond that level.
Even homeless people who would get the prebate would spend it and be paying taxes. Criminals who buy a tricked out Lincoln Navigator would be paying it.
The few people who would some how manage to "come out ahead" and retain some of their prebate unspent (for now, it will surely be spent at *some* point?) are simply not worth the effort to worry about. The other efficiencies and the vast reduction in compliance costs, recordkeeping, and intrusive IRS data demands offsets those "costs".
In fact, more power to them! Congratulations, you managed to live while spending *less* than the poverty line this month. You're a winner! Don't ever spend it later though, or you'll still be paying the taxes you avoided for a short time.
None of that is responsive to the simple fact:
Under the “Fair Tax” proposal, every man, woman, and child would get a check from the federal government every month, for life.
That would have political effects.
Candidates would run for office on promises to increase the “prebate.”
Candidates would run for office on promises to find ways to exclude some persons from the “prebate.”
Politicians would sell their proposals for other things with “if we don’t do this, we might have to reduce the amount of the ‘prebate.’”
If you prefer a consumption tax to some other type of tax, fine — but why link it to a universal cradle-to-grave welfare program, when the same thing could be accomplished (except for that cabin in the woods guy) by just setting the tax rate lower?
MPERCY,
No, it's not OK that some will get more Prebate dollars than they pay out in FAIEtax, because it's just another tool to redistribute more wealth.
It is designed to give people more than they will spend and is easily increased.
See, https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/ft-increases-tax-welfare
National Taxpayers Union:
"According to our analysis of Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) data, altogether, complying with the tax code in 2019 consumed 7.854 billion hours for recordkeeping, learning about the law, filling out the required forms and schedules, and submitting information to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).
"We can calculate an estimate of the value of this time burden using private sector labor costs. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), U.S. employers spent an average of $34.72 per hour worked on total non-federal civilian employee compensation in December 2019. (That figure includes benefits as well as wages and salaries).[2]
"The opportunity cost of the billions of hours spent on taxes is equivalent to $270.9 billion in labor – valuable time that could have been spent more productively or more enjoyably was instead lost to tax code compliance. Add to that the $96.5 billion in estimated out-of-pocket costs taxpayers spent on software, professional preparation services, or other filing expenses, and the total economic value of the compliance burden imposed by the tax code can be calculated at $367.3 billion.
The FT's far far smaller overhead and the fact that it virtually eliminates record keeping and compliance costs for most individuals seems like it more than offsets the "scary" idea that someone somewhere might get more prebate than they actually spend on FT-able goods and services.
Dragooning businesses into being tax collectors is not an improvement over requiring individuals to keep track of their incomes & file a return.
It's an enormous improvement because it's none of the government's business how much money we make. In states with sales taxes, businesses are already "tax collectors".
That same ‘none of government’s business’ argument would apply equally to how much sales revenue a business collects, or to the value of goods being imported, or anything else required to effectively administer any given tax law.
It is, in fact, government’s business to know how much taxable activity a tax-liable entity engages in.
Personal Income is simply the least-harmful & most ‘fair’ thing to tax, as unlike spending it accurately represents the value of an individual’s *time*.
If I make 200k/yr, tax me at 20% and you effectively ‘take’ 20% of my time to support the government. Same thing for someone who makes 20k/yr.
But taxing what I buy, perversely, collects more from those who participate in the economy (solely because they buy things, no matter how much they earn), and less from folks who stuff their mattresses with cash….
P.S. The Supreme Court horribly screwed up by legalizing the collection of sales tax over the internet. The correct response was to say 'Sorry, no extraterritorial jurisdiction. Think it's unfair? Abolish your sales tax'.
Having to report the gross sales of your business is magnitudes less intrusive than an income tax return.
Then just make every employer COLLECT & REMIT a standard income tax... What's the difference? Oh wait; employers are already required to do 90% of this already. Only difference is Tax appropriation adjustments per person.
Is that the biggest curse or is the supposed-curse of having government carry personal information being sold?
Seems to me since the proposal is to include S.S. it's just a massive expansion of COMMUNISM.
"and less from folks who stuff their mattresses with cash…."
So what. Someday, someone will spend the money out of that mattress.
When people who get prebate in excess of what they actually spend on that is subject to FT, so what? Eventually they will spend that money. Somebody dies and their kids inherit $1M each tax free, so what? The kids will spend the money.
The prebate is hardly UBI, it is pocket change that most families will turn right around and net it out by buying things that are FT-able. Let's image that some poor guy manages to buy only used goods, live in a tent in their field where they grow all his own food, never buy gas or electricity or phones or internet or coffee. He would save that $3000 or prebate, goes into the soup can he keeps buried under his tent.
Then what? Is he going to repeat that process forever? Or will eh at some point decide to buy a car? Or rent an apartment. Or maybe buy some groceries?
And even in the unlikely event that he does that forever, so what? That's a risk I'm willing to take if it means that we pay for the government in the least intrusive and most efficient way I can think of. Because the vast majority of people are not going to do that at all, and those tax collections will be efficiently done and without me ever having to justify a penny of my income to anyone who might come after me with guns because they don't believe me.
MPERCY.
the very same savings can be achieved by GREATLY simplifying today's Income Tax, without adopting the disastrous FAIRtax.
MPERCY.
We can reduce/eliminate most of the burden of compliance with today's Income Tax, by basing corporate/business income on "net income as determined under GAAP accounting principles; and for individuals, by greatly simplifying the definition of taxable income and eliminating most all deductions (except those that are incurred to produce taxable income), and most tax credits and Exemptions and having a single tax rate that everyone pays from 1st dollar of income.
One thing no one seems to be talking about is how this will affect business owners in states that have no sales tax. I live in one of those states. I know the owner of an independent bookstore, who told me he deliberately opened his store here so he wouldn't have to be a tax collector for the state.
The current tax situation is a mess, so I'm willing to entertain a complete overhaul. I would propose the elimination of the IRS in its entirety and the elimination of the tax code in its entirety.
From this position, determine what is required minimally to support the bare necessities of what government should be and not the overgrown bloated monstrosity it has become.
Tyranny
Excerpt from the semi-fictional novel, Retribution Fever:
The Internal Revenue Service has made it difficult, if not impossible, for us “U.S. persons” to open or maintain banking accounts in foreign countries. It did this not by outlawing them but by imposing reporting requirements on off-foreign banks even if those banks have no presence in the USA, a practice known as extra-territoriality. The purpose is not to identify criminals or terrorists. Ninety percent of these regulations involve taxation. Consequence? Economic tyranny. What typically follows? Political and social tyranny, which we currently are witnessing.
“An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy.” -Daniel Webster (1819)
The income-tax had fostered all that had affrighted both Federalists and Anti-Federalists. It gave the federal government unbridled power to invade the privacy of every American — adult and child — and selectively to destroy individual persons, single enterprises, and whole industries.
Its enforcing agency, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), had operated in a manner similar to the Nazi’s Geheime Staatspolizei (Gestapo) or the Secret State Police in Germany. Its tyrannical tactics illustrated the worst sort of economic management by punishing rather than rewarding creativity and productivity. Worse, in promoting dishonesty, the income tax made criminals of most Americans, even accountants, who found the increasing complexity and laborious length of its so-called code and the forms derived therefrom invidious, incomprehensible, and intolerable. Americans were spending more than 6-billion, counter-productive hours annually to comply with the federal tax-code. Moreover, it was being used politically to persecute organizations and persons repeatedly while guilty bureaucrats within the IRS went unpunished for their illegal acts even when made public.
The Fair Tax outcome... Buy Foreign pay NO TAX at all.
I'm happy people are having a conversation about how the government collects money from people, even if I think the their ideas are dumb.
1. The prebate is basically UBI. There's an inherent and white-hot moral hazard here and it's guarantee that this would expand constantly and without limit as people realize they can literally vote themselves more direct cash. It's nothing less than a political economic suicide pill.
2. Ensuring compliance with a sales tax is perhaps more onerous and intrusive than compliance with an income tax. Just look at how difficult it is for states to collect sales tax as it is.
3. It is endlessly tiresome to listen to people discussing taxation as if it matters who gets taxed how much, as if the point of a tax is to make sure that people end up with the same amount. It's supposed to be about figuring out how to pay for the activities of the government. No one seems to care whether this will cover the government's debts or not.
1: How is it different from an income tax refund? People and businesses already lobby for more credits and deductions, this is nothing more than frontloading your standard deduction.
2: States (or rather businesses) seem to be doing a pretty good job overall with collecting sales taxes. You're basically just adding a new tax on top of existing ones, which is also something businesses are used to doing (with state, county, and local sales taxes, plus liquor and other "vice" taxes) The infrastructure for clearing already exists. Even in states with no sales tax a small business has any number of off-the-shelf solutions to choose from.
1. Don't take this as a defense of the tax refund here, but at least with the refund it comes after the money has been collected. You don't get a refund before the taxes are collected. They've already been taken from you, you're just getting them back. As it's currently structured, it's impossible to lobby for people to get a larger refund directly. Under the "prebate" system, a direct manipulation of the number would be possible and, I believe, guaranteed. Logistically, the difference between Uncle Sam cutting you a check for $X today and Uncle Sam cutting you a check for $X tomorrow may be the negligible, but semantics matter and there's something deeply poisonous about paying people money as opposed to repaying them. The latter has limitations: you cannot repay more than is owed. The former has no constraints.
2. I live in a state (Texas) with a high sales tax and non-compliance is rampant. Most local businesses are more than happy to do business off the books for cash. The state doesn't have the resources to chase down Pedro's lawn service and proving that someone did work for or provided a good to someone after the fact is incredibly difficult. The only real enforcement mechanism is to go after large corporations and make the odd example out a small one. If compliance is this shaky when sales tax is 8.25%, I can't even imagine what it would look like at 30%. Walmart, et al, won't stand for this because they know damn well that the state can't chase down every vendor that's willing to sell at a 10% discount, pocket the difference, and dutifully report to the !IRS that they've sold nothing of value for the entire year.
But Pedro who works for cash off the books isn't paying taxes now. It's a wash.
So prosecute employers who pay cash off the books. While you're at it, prosecute those who hire illegal immigrants.
Use the giant waste of money we spend 'securing' the southern border to fund this...
That happened to an employer of mine. When he fired me I applied for unemployment, and it turned out he had never paid into it, and they had no record of his business.
Use the giant waste of money we spend ‘securing’ the southern border...
Yeah, let in a flood of undocumented aliens who can't work legally. That will solve the problem of people working off the books and not paying taxes.
Take away the jobs and they will stop coming.
We could spend the entire federal budget on border security, and it still wouldn’t prevent even one person from entering the US illegally *when viewed on a lifetime scale*.
All that spending does, is cause a few of them to have to go back & try again. They have infinite chances, and thus every last person who tries to get in is eventually successful.
Whereas if we eliminate the jobs, they won’t have any reason to come – and there will be no one crossing the border for us to catch.
Bullshit.
It's different from an income tax refund because if you pay ZERO dollars in 'FairTax' (you spent no money on taxable goods in the United States this year - and yes, that is possible: foreign travel, or just extreme used-goods scrounging) you still get 100% of your prebate.
An income tax refund - save for the small slice who get EIC - is 'you OVERPAID your income taxes this year, so here is your *overpayment* back'.
Make it 10%, no prebate, and let the chips fall where they may.
The blurb is correct. The status quo does need challenging. But the problems with our current tax system is not the tax but the spending. The Fair Tax has as it's primary goal to keep the tax level neutral. The taxpayers gets fucked just as hard, just with a shinier condom.
Plus it's essentially a national sales tax. Not good.
Clean up the tax code, sure. But the spending is the real problem, and neither Democrats nor Republicans want to face that truth.
My proposed plan: Get rid of all writeoffs and deductions and credits except for one: The Standard Deduction. Every individual gets a standard $50,000 deduction. Meaning absolutely no taxes on your first $50,000. This covers the poor, the rich pay more, and the middle class isn't left holding the bag. And then we reduce the tax rate to a single number for everyone, 20%.
So basically. 20% any what you make over $50,000. No other deductions or writeoffs or credits or loopholes. Corporate income tax would be different of course. Capital gains could be different, not entirely sure. But that's the basics, a good place to start.
Are these the right numbers? I dunno, but they're a good starting point to play with.
While we're at this rolling back business, let's take a look at the original Libertarian platform with Roe and without terrorist importation, vigilante murders or child molesting. The flat tax bait-switch is simply the obverse of the sloppy seconds voting hustle--another way to poke a hole in libertarian party spoiler vote clout so the Kleptocracy can rob, murder and enslave with less hissing.
You're ignoring the Social Security and Medicare taxes. Under your proposal, workers earning up to $50,000 would be paying 15.3% in federal taxes. Between $50,000 and $160,200, the total tax would be 35.3%. Above $160,200, the rate would fall as more income fell above the cap.
The could work, as long as the corporate income tax was reduced to zero...
As long as there is a corporate income tax there will be sole-proprietorships deducting business expenses from personal income...
And as long as people are deducting business expenses, there will be room to classify all kinds of craziness (electric vehicles, efficient water heaters, childcare, student loan interest) As 'business expenses' - which is how we got to the current deduction zoo.
FWIW, the standard deduction is now high enough that over 90% of Americans no longer itemize.
BRANDYBUCK,
No, the goal is to get to a point where we wind up with BOTH the FAIRtax AND a NEW Income Tax, so Congress can squeeze MORE money out of us.
I am surprised that a Libertarian would grant freedom from paying a share of our Constitutional common costs. There should be NO Exemption, everyone pays from dollar 1 of income.
Taxpayers should be allowed to deduct only costs directly related to producing income that is taxable (which should be greatly simplified).
Of course EVERYONE would need to pay the sales tax - even charities? Government agencies?
And EVERYONE would get a check - even the rich - because there is no way to tell if someone is rich or not.
So... a company buys 400 computers - pays the 26% tax - then what?
Bill Gates buys 10,000,000 shares of google - pay tax on that as well?
When the bank lends me 100,000 do they pay tax on that? How about when I pay back with interest - tax on the interest?
When a store buys 100 Levis Jeans to build inventory - tax on that?
For those that want flat rate - the capital gains people will hate you.
Yes.
That's the idea behind the Fair Tax. I think it's a bad idea and it would be better to exempt essential categories of products from sales tax (mostly food).
Yes.
No.
No sales tax on that either.
No.
The 'Fair Tax' is not in any sense fair - but beyond that, it's unconstitutional.
The idea of state governments collecting all taxes & then sending a portion of their take to fund the federal government is quite-specifically not part of the constitutional design, wherein the federal government holds the power to 'lay and collect taxes' and is a separate sovereign rather than a client of the states.
As for 'fairness', there is one and only one 'fair' tax: a flat income tax on individual (not corporate - corporations eventually pay every penny they earn out to an individual, given how the market frowns on retained earnings) income. The reason for this, is that such a tax takes the exact same amount of *productive time* from each citizen (as represented by a percentage of the income they receive for said time).
A sales tax of any kind takes from those who most-actively participate in the economy, regardless of how many hours it took them to earn what they spent (or if they earned it at all, in the case of borrowed money).
You get less of what you tax. A sales tax means less sales. An income tax means less people working. Capital gains tax means less investments, etc. Every tax has a harm attached to it. But which tax is the worst? Well economically, a sales tax is not good. Taxing consumption also harms production. Small county taxes are small for this reason. Even so you still have problems with people driving across county lines to do their daily shopping if it gets too high.
A national sales tax to generate enough revenue to support our bloated national government (Fair Tax promises to be tax neutral, after all) would be economically damaging. As bad as European VAT taxes that have crippled a lot of European nations.
Also, it's far easier to depress consumption than to depress income.
The FAIRtax is a SCAM - see https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge
It has many fatal flaws - see https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/summary-lte-and-supporting-papers
I'm ready to fade bets that the thing will be less than 5 times as long as the Constitution, and neither include repeal of 13th Amendment protection for pregnant women nor higher mandatory minimums and asset forfeiture grabs for twigs, seeds and actual enjoyable drugs.
Under the FairTax, however, another federal agency would have to take its place to adjudicate which purchases qualify.
Everyone will declare a personal business, and then claim that all purchases are business expenses.
To overcome that, they'll need an enforcement agency that is exactly like the IRS. They can call it the "Fair Revenue Service". Hooray.
If you actually look at the fair tax book, it’s worse than that.
Their method of abolishing the IRS, is to deprive the federal government of it’s (constitutionally enumerated) revenue collection abilities & shift tax collection 100% to the states.
50 separate state tax authorities, collecting this ‘fair tax’ in each state, and then 50 state legislatures get to decide whether or not to pay their state’s dues to the feds each year…
Flatly unconstitutional.
Why would getting rid of income tax require the 16th amendment to be repealed? The 16th gives congress the power to collect taxes on incomes but does not require it. Granted, as long as the amendment is in place congress could bring back the income tax but noting in the amendment says income tax can not be eliminated.
Article I Section 8 - not any amendment - gives Congress the power to collect taxes.
The 16th Amendment merely classifies income-taxation as an ‘indirect’ tax under the Article I taxing power.
The article contains several errors and misstatements.
First, its last paragraph states, " ... it couldn't into effect until the 16th Amendment, which officially gave Congress the authority to tax income, was repealed. " That is dead wrong! While that may possibly have been in an earlier version of the Bill, for a long time, the Bill contains a laughable "poison pill" that falsely promises that if the 16th Amendment is not repealed within 7 years, the FAIRtax is automatically repealed. This is a joke. Congress would simply repeal that "poison pill" and the FAIRtax does NOT disappear AND Congress would enact a NEW Income Tax so that we would have BOTH taxes which is exactly what Congress wants.
Secondly, its NOT q 23% sales tax, it's 30%. The con men selling this nonsense sought to make the tax appear smaller by calculating the sales tax rate by dividing the dollars of tax by the total INCLUDING the sales tax. This is VERY deceptive despite the volumes of hot air the con men use to try to rationalize this deception, we figure a sales tax rate (FAIRtax is a SALES tax) using the tax compared to the cost BEFORE adding on the sales tax.
Third, the Prebate: Despite its correction, the Prebate can be paid for more than just "every American."
(b) Family Size Determination.—
“(1) IN GENERAL.—To determine the size of a qualified family for purposes of this chapter, family members shall mean—
“(A) an individual,
“(B) the individual’s spouse,
“(C) all lineal ancestors and descendants of said individual (and such individual’s spouse),
“(D) all legally adopted children of such individual (and such individual’s spouse), and
“(E) all children under legal guardianship of such individual (or such individual’s spouse).
“(2) IDENTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS.—In order for a person to be counted as a member of the family for purposes of determining the size of the qualified family, such person must—
“(A) have a bona fide Social Security number, (I would bet that those aliens without SS #'s but Taxpayer Identification Numbers (TINs) would be included).
and
“(B) be a lawful resident of the United States (this would include most of the illegals who stole their way into the US and now await their asylum hearings which may never happen).
I'd love to see them give this a serious look. Of course, the bill would need to require that income taxes get entirely phased out (to prevent us from having a two-pronged tax system). Also, I think it would have to (and it might, already) stipulate that the system would be phased in over many years. To just jack the price up on everything by 23%, overnight, would cause a tremendous shock to the economy, as I fear many people would avoid purchases due to sticker shock until they had acclimated to the fatter paychecks. But two years of, say, 5-10% less GDP could send the economy into quite a recessionary spiral. It's also not clear whether something like this is really going to work, so it would be nice to have it phase in so that, if it looks like it's going to be awful, then we can turn back to the devil we know.
I'm also a little concerned by the fact that, whenever I see the word "fair" used with "tax", it's always an attempt by rich people to lower their own taxes, and screw everybody else. I currently pay well over 23% of my income in taxes, so, if my rich-guy taxes are going down, I'm wondering about who else in our society is having to make that up. It probably isn't going to be the people _richer_ than I, since Elon can just buy his next jet in the Caymans. I'd love to see a chart of typical tax burden per income level under both plans based upon the purchasing opportunities available to each income bracket.
"since Elon can just buy his next jet in the Caymans"
That's a really good point....
So all foreign purchases would then be 100% tax free/evasion.
Watch out China dependency; you haven't seen nothing yet...
It's a neat idea, except for all the legitimate concerns listed above - plus, I wouldn't support it unless it also eliminated all sin taxes as well. If the goal is a singular sales tax, then it should be a singular sales tax, NOT a much higher sales tax plus extra sales taxes for unfavored groups.
The FairTax is to replace federal taxes. It would not affect state and local taxes.
How will the fed reserve respond to this? Are they not after all a separate taxing entity competing with congress? Why not just eliminate taxes all together and just let all levels of gov't print money whenever they need something?
No, the Federal Reserve does not levy taxes. Odd that you think that.
Why not just eliminate taxes all together and just let all levels of gov’t print money
The federal government could do that. That would require eliminating the Federal Reserve and the government going back to issuing its own money from the Treasury. Many, many people would have to be hung from lampposts to make that happen.
Yes, they levy taxes. Every time the federal reserve loosens the money supply, you and I pay a DeFacto tax in the form of reduced buying power. Unfortunately, the founders did not anticipate this. Due to the Cantillion effect, usually banks are the ones the benefit. (Remember, you don't actually own your house, you just rent in the form of taxes.) Congress on the hand competes with this directly through taxes and/or spending. E.g., congress spends and spends while the fed reserve attempts to tighten the money supply, all at our expense. Again, we could just eliminate taxes altogether and just allow for governing entities at all levels to just print money whenever they need it. It would be kind of like a flat tax that adjusts to your locality.
Yes—odd.
Funny how even after the last money stuffing episode this nation JUST / STILL IS going through you see that as the best option.
Just make all employers COLLECT & REMIT a standard income tax for mystery # of paid employees… That apparently is the supposed ‘benefit’ of all this anyways.
Then the heaviest S.S. donators who work hard or create great accomplishments can retire at their commie-trailer house park with all the meth addicts. If Communism is the end goal here can’t have identifiable people in the mix.
Sell your individual souls to the [WE] foundation; because YOU don't own You! [WE] own you.
The ?Fair? Tax Act....... How to make a BAD situation WORSE!
FU CUT-SPENDING......
It's just kicking the can down the road...
Move the tax farther and farther away from the people...
Just don't stop growing taxation... /s
Sell your individual souls to the [WE] foundation; because YOU don’t own You! [WE] own you.
Yes, economic ignoramuses and fascists like you want people to remain slaves of the state.
We need to ditch the status quo, but the FairTax is awful. A libertarian tax shift should remove the burden from producers, consumers, and investors and place it on land speculators. Land value taxation, Pigovian taxes on industrial pollution, and severance taxes on non-renewable natural resource depletion. That's it, and that's all.
I went to a taxes for retirement presentation yesterday, and it was basically just one, long recitation of how much taxes are going to go up. The purpose was to scare the bb's out of everyone so they'd sign up for the extra-special financial advice offered by the presenter's company.
It struck me that there's an enormous pile of money just about to be distributed from retirement plans, and people are going to be cheated left and right, primarily based on fear.
Our ridiculous tax system with its stupidly complex rules and enormous compliance costs is the whip.
So yeah. Bring on the FairTax. And anything else you've got. The system needs challenging.
FU.. CUT-SPENDING....
By letting government tell you how best to act through the tax code. Social scores if you will.
How so?
That's how I've heard it described in the past, but that's not how the article describes it. The article says you'd need an agency set up to determine whose income is low enough to get the prebate.
The correct way is of course as you described, basically it would be as if they preloaded your standard income tax deduction by just not withholding taxes until you've earned that amount.
"Once you’ve purchased up to poverty level of consumption for the number of people in your household, you start paying the tax."
This is not quite right.
You would pay the Fair Tax on every retail purchase. There is no record keeping about whether you've crossed the threshold or anything. You just buy stuff and the tax is in there, and you just pay it.
But, because you've been handed the prebate, the *net* effect is that the first $X of stuff you purchase every month is *effectively* tax free. Where $X is a function of the size of your household, the poverty line, and the Fair Tax rate.
[I will use round numbers here for illustrative purposes only. I know that they poverty line is different and that the Fair Tax rate is different.]
Using some round numbers, let's assume that you are a single-person household, making exactly the poverty-line, which for this example we will assume it $12,000 per year for a single-member household. Further let's assume a nice round number for the Fair Tax rate, 20%. In this case, you would receive a monthly prebate of $200 ($12,000, divided by 12 is $1000 monthly income, times 20% is $200). So if you, as a poverty-line person probably will do, spend every penny of your income on necessities. Without the prebate, you would end up paying $200 in Fair Tax every month, collected by the nice merchants with which you do business. They don't ask if you're poor, they don't ask if you're rich, they don't ask it you hit your spending limit. They don't care about any of that. With the prebate in your pocket, you are effectively paying the $200 along the way out of the prebate bucks. At the end of the year, you will have not paid any taxes out of your own pocket.
Now, using some round numbers, let's assume that you are a single-person household, making $120,000. Again for this example we will assume that the poverty line is $12,000 per year for a single-member household. Further let's assume a nice round number for the Fair Tax rate, 20%. In this case, you would receive a monthly prebate of $200 ($12,000, divided by 12 is $1000 monthly income, times 20% is $200). Because the prebate is based on poverty-level SPENDING, not poverty-level income. So if you, as a $120,000 person probably will do, spend a percentage of your income on your necessities and the rest on "luxuries". Without the prebate, you would end up paying $2000 in Fair Tax every month on your $10k monthly spending, collected by the nice merchants with which you do business. They don't ask if you're poor, they don't ask if you're rich, they don't ask it you hit your spending limit. They don't care about any of that. With the prebate in your pocket, you are effectively paying $1800 in taxes ($2000 less the prebate money, $200).
The article is incorrect.
lol if only.
If the rest of the Constitution was honored it wouldn't be such a problem.
That will take a while to shake out, I imagine most prices will largely stay flat until inflation catches back up and they begin rising again. Maybe 2-3 years.
I could be wrong of course, but I highly doubt that will stop banks from promoting more spending in the run-up to the change lol.
Ironically; The current Sales Tax pitch doesn’t eliminate any of those taxes it just hides them better behind the price-tag.
R Mac,
That was one of their first big LIES!
SEE,
https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/ft-will-increase-prices-by-nearly-30
Sarcasm man. I'm not Mike.
Unpossible
And everyone will scream, “why are we giving rich people money?”
Also, it would be in the government’s best interest that prices rose and incomes not so much.
mpercy.
Your numbers are wrong.
The Prebate for a 1 person household in the lower 48 States is not $12,000. The 2023 figure, which will be available next week will be over $14,000 (it changes every year).
The Prebate assumes that the entire $14,000 is subjected to FAIRtax's deceptive "all-inclusive" tax rate of 23% (it's really a 30% sales tax based on the price BEFORE adding sales tax) so the annual Prebate would be about $3,220 or $268/mo.
The Prebate is really a disguised wealth redistribution because people will be able to avoid a lot of the FAIRtax. See https://sceldridge.wixsite.com/sceldridge/ft-increases-tax-welfare
Why wouldn't it be in the government's interest for incomes to rise?
People with more cash to spend spend more cash. The price of the individual item doesn't matter so much, as they'll be buying something else with some of the money leftover. Wealth effect is a real thing, people who FEEL wealthy will spend more.
Likewise, if you see higher prices and lower incomes people will get frugal with their discretionary income, or be living hand to mouth, but they won't spend more than they make either way. You want more sales taxes? People need to have more cash to spend.
We give rich people money already. It's the standard deduction. In the current tax system, everyone gets that break, so that they are not paying taxes on the first tranch of dollars they earn.
The 2022 standard deduction is $12,950 for single filers, $25,900 for joint filers . That is, a single filer would be tax-free for the first $12,950 whether they are claiming $1M in income or $15,000.
The prebate is the same thing. For 2022, the poverty line is $13,590 for an individual, so the prebate for an individual would be about $260 per month, so that the first $1130 or so that they spend every month is net tax-free.
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That's why I said:
[I will use round numbers here for illustrative purposes only. I know that they poverty line is different and that the Fair Tax rate is different.]
Using $12,000 made the math easy for almost everyone. I should have worried more about the reading comprehension.