The New Abortion Prohibition Era
We already know what happens when governments try to impose prohibitions: messy, deadly black markets.

Americans disagree about abortion. This is the understatement of 2022, yet it bears repeating in the wake of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the June Supreme Court decision that returned abortion policy to state and federal legislatures. Ten states have already banned abortion and another four have prohibited abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, which amounts to nearly the same thing.
We already know what happens when governments try to impose prohibitions. We've seen it play out in gun control, immigration, sex work, the war on drugs, and other issues where large groups of people want or need something the government tells them they're not allowed to have. The result is messy, deadly black markets.
The war on drugs has amply demonstrated the lengths to which governments will go to stop prohibited behavior. In the name of recreational drug prohibition, the state locks people up, steals their money, militarizes borders, wages war, and muddies international diplomacy. States abridge the voting rights, Second Amendment rights, and freedom of movement of hundreds of thousands of people associated with the sale and use of illegal drugs.
There is every reason to think that governments will do all this and more when it comes to abortion, which to pro-lifers represents a much graver threat than mere heroin or escorts. In fact, the drug-war apparatus that is already in place can be smoothly extended to the drugs already used in more than half of the roughly 650,000 abortions that happen in the U.S. annually.
We are entering the new abortion prohibition era, and we must reckon with its true costs.
There are plenty of pro-life libertarians, including several at Reason. They argue that the role of the state is to protect life, liberty, and property, that a fetus is a life, and therefore there is a justifiable state interest in banning abortion. This is a respectable view with a long history. Any good-faith conversation about abortion begins with a recognition that there may indeed be competing moral or legal claims between the woman and the fetus—between the mother and her child, if you like.
Most Americans think that, especially in the first trimester, it is permissible to resolve those claims in favor of the mother. A significant majority—about 85 percent—consistently tell pollsters they believe abortion in the first trimester is permissible. And more than 90 percent of the abortions that are actually performed are in the first trimester. Most Americans do not see the typical abortion as something that should be punishable in the way that murder is punishable. People arrive at this shared destination by walking many convoluted roads: through the rights to privacy, self-defense, or bodily autonomy; through feminism, environmentalism, or faith.
The fact that most Americans believe something doesn't tell us much about whether that thing is right or true, of course. After all, a majority of Americans also tell pollsters they believe Atlantis was real.
But even if large majorities shared the pro-life view, anti-abortion laws are still very different from laws against murder in an important respect. When there is such deep, sincerely held disagreement about matters of such personal import, when hundreds of thousands of women every year personally weigh the factors and decide that an abortion is the right choice, that is a signal that new prohibition regimes will be extremely costly, and perhaps ultimately unjustifiable. Not everything bad must be banned. In the last three decades, abortions have fallen precipitously, from a high of 1.4 million in 1990, even as the law has remained largely unchanged, suggesting that even those who believe abortion to be a moral nightmare have other options at their disposal and that those other tools were working. We should seriously consider whether the outcomes are better all around if governments leave it to individuals to persuade each other, help each other, and talk to each other.
To do that, Americans need to be able to speak freely about abortion. They will need to share information about how abortions work and who gets them. And they'll need to do that in broad daylight, so that bad information doesn't go unchecked. This will be more difficult in states that choose more draconian criminalization regimes.
Old federal laws, still on the books, about mailing abortion information are about to become extremely relevant. But most of us don't learn important information via the U.S. Postal Service these days; we get it online. Naturally, legislators of both parties are immediately keen to meddle with that flow.
In July, a group of congressional Democrats sent a letter to Google, demanding restrictions on search results for abortion-related terms that refer users to anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D–Mass.) took things a step further, introducing a bill calling for the closure of the centers under the rubric of "disinformation." Republicans responded with a measured and principled defense of free speech and free association. Just kidding! They wrote a letter to Google threatening legal action if Google ceded to Democratic demands.
Model legislation being circulated by the anti-abortion group National Right to Life is forthright about its desire to restrict speech: Aiding and abetting an abortion, the group suggests, should "include, but not be limited to: (1) giving instructions over the telephone, the internet, or any other medium of communication regarding self-administered abortions or means to obtain an illegal abortion; (3) hosting or maintaining a website, or providing internet service, that encourages or facilitates efforts to obtain an illegal abortion; (4) offering or providing illegal 'abortion doula' services; and (5) providing referrals to an illegal abortion provider [numbering in original]."
Abortion will join sex work and election disinformation as a justification for restricting online speech, both personal and commercial.
Free speech isn't the only arena where many people will pay for abortion prohibitions with their liberties and privacy. To criminalize abortion is to make criminals of pregnant women and their doctors, as well as their mothers, their boyfriends, their Uber drivers, their pharmacists, their doulas, or anyone else who plays a part. Many opponents of abortion seek to downplay the harsh logic of prohibition and its consequences for those it is meant to help. But the incarcerated drug user and the child in a border camp beg to differ. Soon this cast will have another character: the bleeding woman forced to lie to her emergency room doctor.
As with other prohibitions, poor people and minorities will suffer most. People without resources in states with harsh restrictions will carry unwanted babies to term and, if current trends hold, they will most often keep them despite financial or personal difficulties they will face in doing so. Wealthy women will be able to travel to get abortions, and they will be able to hire lawyers to get them out of trouble when they get caught. In those cases, the new laws won't stop those women from getting abortions; instead they will simply get abortions secretly, unsupported, at greater expense, and far from home.
It's been a while since first-trimester abortions were illegal anywhere in the United States. But we have spent the decades since Roe experimenting with all kinds of other prohibitions, and all we have for our trouble is a trail of death and destruction.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "The New Abortion Prohibition Era."
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The black market in assassination surely also undermines the prohibition on murder and justifies its legalization.
Free speech also does not do very well under a pro-abortion regime with the restrictions on protesting abortion mills, requiring cris pregnancy centers to carry information on where abortions may be obtained, and 3ven the complete legal suppression of such centers.
The logic of people believing something is true does not make it right cuts both ways. The pro-abortion ethic has the same flaw as all other utilitarian morality. It is unprincipled, arbitrary, and often self-contradictory.
The pro-abortion ethic has the same flaw as all other utilitarian morality. It is unprincipled, arbitrary, and often self-contradictory.
IDK about all utilitarian morality, but certainly most. I think there's a lot of just plain opinionating that gets advertised and sold as utilitarian morality, but I don't think that means it can't be done. The proponents just actually have to avoid being blatantly retarded and avoid using obvious shortcuts of equating conditions with the things that cause those conditions and the consequences of alleviating those conditions with the things that cause them.
The prohibition on abortion isn't like the ban on alcohol or drugs. Alcohol and drugs are the proximate (or not) causes of their relative prohibition's undesired outcomes. Abortion is, itself, the undesired outcome. A ban on semen would be similar to a ban on alcohol or drugs. A ban on abortion is like a ban on getting drunk and driving a car with a minor passenger.
A ban on semen might have kept Beto from getting the MPX.
Did Beto only get it on his rectum? Or is it on his mouth as well?
Here's another distinction: People object to being assassinated, but nobody objects to being aborted.
"People object to being assassinated"
Isn't that prior restraint?
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I don't know a single person who has been assassinated come out and say they object to it.
And as far as I know, every person who has survived assassination has objected, and every person who has survived abortion objected to it.
Any good faith conversation begins with a recognition that there may be competing moral and legal claims
Which has never been the strong suit of the pro-abortion faction.
Thanks for proving JFree's point.
We recognize there are conflicting interests. It is why pro-lifers have been willing to give the "health of mother" exceptions...except it gets stretched to cover "emotional" health and becomes immaterial.
"It is why pro-lifers have been willing to give the "health of mother" exceptions"
Anti-abortionists don't support health-of-the-mother exceptions. Some are willing to do life of the mother, others rape and incest, but allowing doctors to make determinations about health isn't an acceptable thing. Because apparently doctors aren't as skilled at medical decisions as politicians.
"except it gets stretched to cover "emotional" health and becomes immaterial"
Because mental health isn't health? The 50s mindset that it's better to self-medicate with booze and drugs than acknowledge mental health as a real concern is much better approach, right?
Murder is not an acceptable way to treat the sads. This is why we no longer will humor you as anybody remotely close to good faith.
Sorry, not sorry.
It isn't murder. Calling it murder is bad faith.
Yeah, it is. This is a biological fact.Your assertion to the contrary means nothing.
It not only isn't a biological fact, it's not a legal fact. Or a moral fact, for that matter.
If you say *I believe* it is murder, awesome. If you say it *is* murder, you are wrong.
Obviously many considerations are operating, or you wouldn't get gradations of opinion on the conditions under which abortions should be legal. Just as there are gradations of opinion on the conditions under which people should be allowed to buy narcotics, or by which people should be put into involuntary servitude or even put to death. It looks like, as with most things in life, people balance considerations against each other to arrive at a yes/no solution in different cases.
Exactly. Prohibiting theft, rape, murder, torture, only makes people go underground to do it. Oh, the horror!
Move the reply button to the other side like the rest of the internet.
Ah damn, you guys are the reason why we can't shoot robbers in home invasions. You want to go into people's business and try to save lives. Go mind your own business and fuck yourself.
We also know this is true for slavery. Slavery still exists in the US but is pushed deep into the shadows.
The biggest question in abortion, one that is continually danced around by pro-choice advocates, is whether it is a baby or not. If not, then the arguments are very convincing about abortion. If so, the argument becomes more complicated. I think evidence supports pretty clearly that it is a human being killed. I think there is evidence that this is known by many to the tendency to shift the conversation to an abstract conversation about "personhood". This argument can and should happen more directly though, because many arguments made for the pro-choice side tends to make several arguments on shifting sand where their priors about that status shift or are ignored due to the needs of the end.
Pro-abortion people use the same reasoning as pro-slavery ones - it isn't a person.
"The biggest question in abortion, one that is continually danced around by pro-choice advocates, is whether it is a baby or not."
No one dances around it. Only pro-lifers think it is a baby (meaning a person). Pro-choice advocates may use that term colloquially, but none of them are fooled into thinking a non-viable fetus is a person.
"I think evidence supports pretty clearly that it is a human being killed."
Which is an opinion. The things that you place value on and the things that you don't inform that opinion, but the strength of your belief doesn't make it a more (or less) valid belief.
If you want to have "a fetus is a person" (or, even more extreme, "a fertilized egg is a person") as the baseline truth that everyone acknowledges, you have to prove it to someone who doesn't start from a position of belief. And in that the anti-abortion position has failed utterly.
It isn't "pretty clear ". It isn't even "somewhat clear". It is a conclusion that most people don't reach, but some people (like you) do. That shouldn't have any impact on anyone else.
"I think there is evidence that this is known by many to the tendency to shift the conversation to an abstract conversation about "personhood"."
That's because personhood (a legal distinction), life (a biological fact), and morality (a personal belief system) are three different things. Anti-abortionists pretend that they are (or should be) the same. The vast majority of people disagree. And they disagree because, among other things, the idea that a fertilized egg with a 27% chance of becoming a living human should be treated the same as if it was a 100% chance and, therefore, their rights are equal (and in some ways superior) to a living person. It doesn't make sense.
"the pro-choice side tends to make several arguments on shifting sand where their priors about that status shift or are ignored due to the needs of the end."
The part anti-abortionists don't understand (or at least don't accept) is that different people have different reasons for believing that the pro-choice position is correct. That is, in fact, another argument for the pro-choice side: you don't have to accept anyone else's beliefs as your own. The government doesn't have to force you to do (or not do) anything. Your own moral and philosophical belief system, and no one else's, will inform your choice.
The anti-abortion side, however, can't say the same. There is a foundational premise, without which the anti-abortion position cannot exist. That life (biological, moral, and legal) begins at conception. If they could prove that their argument would have a lot more legitimacy.
But they can't. Nor do they try. It's just asserted as an incontrovertible fact with no attempt to legitimize it. False analogies (slavery), sophistry, misrepresentations (murder, utilitarian), claims of moral superiority, dishonest rhetoric (state vs. federal), and absolutism are just a few of the flaws with the anti-abortion position.
There is a point at which virtually everyone agrees that someone is a living person. Pick a point, any point, where you are absolutely certain that you are talking about a living person. If you start at 18, for example, virtually everyone agrees that is a living person. So, staring there, move one week earlier and ask "is this a living person?". The answer will remain "yes" until you get to live birth.
As you move into negative territory (pre-birth), more and more people will answer "no". When you get to conception, the split is roughly 85% "no" and 15% "yes".
Why do you assume that you and your small cadre of true believers are right and everyone else is wrong? And what justifies forcing everyone else to live by your standards, since no effort has been made to establish life (all three aspects) beginning at conception as fact?
"undermines the prohibition on murder and justifies its legalization"
The false equivelence between abortion and murder just proves you aren't willing to acknowledge that any position other than anti-abortion is valid or sincerely held. So apparently the vast majority of Americans, who oppose banning abortion, aren't worthy of being considered.
"Free speech ... complete legal suppression of such centers."
First, pro-choice and pro-abortion are different things. No one is pro-abortion. No one is excited to get (or give) an abortion. It is a personal decision and pro-choice people believe that the decision should be made by the individual, not the government. No one is advocating for required abortions.
And the prohibitions you reference are (or, in the case of those that aren't real, would be) problematic. Crisis pregnancy centers are inherently dishonest, as they are dedicated to obfuscating and delaying abortions (beginning by refusing to admit they don't perform abortions) until they are legally impermissible. They are manipulative, dishonest, and staffed by people with no moral compass, but the First Amendment protects speech. Even lies. So they shouldn't be restricted.
I wouldn't oppose them being required to tell people who mention abortion that they don't perform that procedure, but forcing them to have literature about abortikn clinics is, in my mind, wrong.
"The pro-abortion ethic has the same flaw as all other utilitarian morality"
Conflating "utilitarian morality" and pro-choice beliefs is inherently dishonest, isn't it? Most pro-choice people don't focus on the outcome, they focus on the rights of the individual and the broad range of moral beliefs on abortion.
Most people believe abortion is, more or less, moral. Where the line between moral and immoral lies is different for each person, but almost no one believes that all abortions are immoral. Even fewer believe that no abortions are immoral.
Accusations of utilitarianism are false. That would require that the outcome is the determining factor in the moral belief. But pro-choice people aren't advocating for abortion as a result. They are advocating for the choice to be made by the individual. If they choose abortion, that is their decision to make. If they choose to have a baby, that is also their decision. Both are equally acceptable, as long as both are equally available.
Abortion, for non-medical reasons is nothing but a sacrament of death and destruction.
So is denying someone your kidney, lugs, or other pieces you don't have to have...
FORCED Organ Donation!!! /s
Your logic is flawed to the point of nonexistence.
Any government that can tell you when you can't have an abortion will be able to tell you when you must have an abortion.
That makes literally no sense. Murder is illegal yet I've not seen the government demand I kill other people.
Google "Selective Service".
CB
Strictly speaking, Selective Service meant that they could make you serve, and give you huge rations of shit if you didn’t want to kill. You probably still had to wrangle viscera as a medic, though.
"We already know what happens when governments try to impose prohibitions. We've seen it play out ... where large groups of people want or need something the government tells them they're not allowed to have. The result is messy, deadly black markets."
There's a difference between not allowed to HAVE and not allowed to DO. Beyond that, this argument says: "because laws failed to stop XZY, we shouldn't have any laws at all". Or, "since laws failed to stop XZY, we shouldn't try to make Q illegal and it's just a coincidence that Q is a pet issue of mine".
Beyond that, this argument says: "because laws failed to stop XZY, we shouldn't have any laws at all"
No it's not. It's saying, "because laws against XZY caused UVW we need to examine whether the law reduces XZY enough to justify the cost of UVW.
Utilitarianism is not libertarian.
Your take on utilitarianism is very, very broad. It would cover alomst every decision ever made by anyone.
Most Americans think that, especially in the first trimester, it is permissible to resolve those claims in favor of the mother. A significant majority—about 85 percent—consistently tell pollsters they believe abortion in the first trimester is permissible.
I have been led to believe by one of the Reason writers (I don't remember which one) that an overwhelming percentage of Americans support abortion-on-demand up until the moment of birth plus a few hours more.
You know the idea of abortion in the first trimester being permissible because it's the
woman'sbirthing person's choice but that society has an interest in protecting the life of the child in the second trimester and an overwhelming interest in the third trimester comes straight out of Roe v Wade, right? Which, of course, is not good enough to be an acceptable compromise to those who insist abortion is an absolute right at any time. They insisted that Roe v Wade be endlessly expanded, and now look what they've got. (But don't worry, good Catholics like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi will see to it that the government pays for abortions for all.)Personal-Freedom to Fetal Ejection at will (C-Section). Problem solved.
"I have been led to believe by one of the Reason writers (I don't remember which one) that an overwhelming percentage of Americans support abortion-on-demand up until the moment of birth plus a few hours more."
No one here (and almost no one, period) has ever said that. It is a delusional anti-abortion talking point with no supporting data.
"that society has an interest in protecting the life of the child in the second trimester and an overwhelming interest in the third trimester comes straight out of Roe v Wade, right?"
Wait, Roe was a logical and reasonable assessment of the beliefs of the American people? Do tell.
While the legal premise of Roe is problematic, the assessment of the increasing discomfort Americans feel through the course of a pregnancy is spot on.
The only ones who were upset at the framework that Roe created were cultural conservatives. The only logic for passing laws banning any abortion restrictions was to make it impossible for anti-abortionists to restrict it. Which pro-lifers swore was ridiculous, since they would never do such a thing. Turns out the protection was necessary and the pro-choicers lied, to the surprise of absolutely no one.
"They insisted that Roe v Wade be endlessly expanded, and now look what they've got."
this argument is complete horseshit for two reasons.
first, and most notably, overturning ROE did ABSOLUTELY NOTHIONG to eliminate the more permissible laws that some states enacted for abortion. if the more permissible laws were your motivation to overturn ROE, then you are an idiot.... because overturning Roe did nothing to stop it.
second, and demonstrating the complete dishonesty of the argument that you were just fighting those trying to push the limits on abortion too far... are the number of states that immediately banned abortion or severely limited it. banning abortions, including those early enough that the vast majority of Americans don't want them banned, was always the intent. talking about the more permissive states that you didn't change is just a BS deflection.
"They argue that the role of the state is to protect life, liberty, and property, that a fetus is a life, and therefore there is a justifiable state interest in banning abortion. This is a respectable view with a long history. Any good-faith conversation"
#1) No guess (religious-faith) work needed
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection).
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
#2) The USA isn't principled on the idea that 'enslaving' (taking liberty) of one to save another. That concept is Leftard (The Slavery Party) ideology.
#3) There is nothing more PERSONAL that one's own body. Nothing! That is why death/life is so important to people. Pro-Life likes to pretend a woman's body isn't PERSONAL but just 'medical equipment' of the state for reproduction (save their precious 'unicorn').
#4) If DICTATING people's body decisions to save a life is the 'right' route. Where's mandated organ donor-ship? Is it the 'right' thing to do to send Gov-Guns out to collect necessary body parts from the public to save someone? No one was insane enough to believe that was the right thing to do... How about a family member on life support who's car accident left them in 'pieces'; Is it all holy Gov-Gun 'Gods' (politicians) job to insist air/blood just keeps getting pumped into a child in such a state or should life support be a decision for the family?
Pro-Life narratives don't make sense. They are just [WE] mobs looking to extend Gov-Gun POWER! After after conquering Women the next 'unicorn' on their list will be everyone on life support. Only Gov-Gun GODS (politicians) can make such life altering decisions??
Think about it.
Nobody is "forced" to have sex you raving loon, or are you completely ignorant of the cause of pregnancy? You cannot equate the consequences of having sex with forced organ donation or any of the other idiocy you are on about.
then why do Republican idiots want to specifically forbid abortion after a rape, you dumbass?
the number of pregnancies resulting from rape is minuscule. using that as an argument is ridiculous and tells me that you really have no argument at all.
The fact that it is small should not negate having provisions to address the issue.
making sweeping public policy based on one-off circumstances is always bad policy. but if abortion is the murder of a child, which it is, then obviously there should not be any provision for rape. one crime does not justify another.
Exactly. I wonder how many people that were the result of rape would prefer to have been murdered as a baby? I’m going to guess it’s zero.
Since when was YOUR 'unicorn' (theories of children that YOU cannot produce in assistance) in everyone else's wife/woman/body???
Do you people ever stop spouting your DELUSIONS!? Gov-Gun Gods already create enough delusional excuses for their tyrannical dictation. Get over yourselves..
Face the bloody FACTS.........
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Stop pretending your entire lives revolve around a Power-Trip to dictate everyone else's personal lives.
*cannot produce in actual existence*
Ever heard of rape?
Rape incest and life of mother are common exceptions even in conservative area.
Plus if the abortion arguments were about rape and life of the mother then there would be no debate since 90+%,support it in those cases.
But not health of the mother, of course. Because the woman has no right to be concerned about her health and her doctor probably doesn't know what they are doing (and are probably lying anyway).
Just admit you want to force everyone to live by your extreme moral beliefs. At least then you would be honest. Still wrong, but at least honest.
Ah, just to remind you, it takes two to tango. I don't care what you identify yourself as.
So sex is only allowed for procreation? That would mean well over 99% of sex is wrong, wrong, wrong!
Procreation is the reason sex exists. You’re treating it like some bizarre aberration. Which explains the left.
Procreation isn't the *only* reason sex exists. There are many more things that sex is for. Those reasons accpunt for the vast majority of sexual encounters.
Acting like procreation is the only valid reason for sex flies in the face of the entirety of human existence.
Nobody is "forced" to drive a car you raving loon, or are you completely ignorant of the cause of lethal car-accidents? /s
UR tyrannical extremism is noted and your wanna-be GOD complex is on display.
To be clear, neither party is the the party of individual rights. Liberals tend to like the federal government, and Trumplicans like the state government (probably because they have an easier time controlling the state). To be clear, "states rights" as of about 1960 has been the rallying cry of the overt oppressors.
The real issue is the enormous gray area when people attempt to compromise. If the woman is 90% going to die from complications, abortion OK? How about 50%? Or 10%?
The maternity death rate for blacks/hispanics is something like 60 deaths per 100,000 births - or .06% Is that enough of a risk?
Who calculates the risk?
Bottom line - there are so many variables, that it is impossible to make 'fair' laws around it AND, I don't really care what the final outcome is. I prefer to leave up to doctors and adults that are personally involved.
I care more about those currently living on the earth vs. some theoretical zygote
Who calculates the risk?
Dr Fauci and Pfizer.
I prefer to leave up to doctors and adults that are personally involved.
So not a big fan of Roe V Wade either, then.
That's exactly what Roe allowed. It was an individual decision under Roe. It is a government decsion now.
Republicans tend to prefer federalism. Except for the RINO’s.
This Republican prefers the U.S. Constitution as the Supreme Law of the land over federalist "democratic" dictation.
Course this subject is actually the very basis of the Civil War. How sovereign are State's anyways? Sovereign enough to throw out the U.S. Constitution and enact slavery?
The New Abortion Prohibition Era
Is KMW's hair still dyed colors? Cuz it's fucking clown world around here!
Thanks to Dobbs the FBI is gonna stop raiding FPOTUS's and other politicians' homes and start kicking in doors at speakeasy abortion clinics! Massive criminal networks of abortion providers will be shooting each other dead in the streets in order to defend their lucrative baby-killing turf (in Chicago, things will just get slightly more organized)! Dobs will have hobbled all of criminal law to the point that we'll only be able to convict them of tax fraud!
Travel to states allowing abortion past the first trimester is easy and cheap. At least one of the 'conservative' justices has said plainly that laws prohibiting travel between the states for any reason are unconstitutional, so states passing such laws will get slapped down.
If women who see abortion as a basic right are all in, then just start a fund to pay for abortion travel.
Biloxi to Las Vegas round trip is less than $200. Bus to Illinois is even cheaper.
Bans on abortion by some states just makes it a bit harder, so go to those states that allow it.
Ever heard of poor people?
most people who are poor are poor because of bad decisions in their life -- just like the unwanted pregnancy. make bad decisions and you bear the consequences.
Wow. What an uninformed, stereotyping, morally smug belief system you have. You are so ill-informed that the "voters need to prove they are informed enough to be worthy of voting" folks think you're too extreme.
i know, everyone is just a victim of their circumstances. there's no personal responsibility for you. here's a news flash: life doesn't just happen to you, you control your own life. if your life is screwed up it's your fault.
If you were talking about a specific person, your complaints would be valid. But generalizing an entire group of people by making broad assumptions about their character, behaviors, circumstances, and actions is fact-free, ignorant (and in this case, racial) stereotyping.
Top ten states for poverty rates: Mississippi (19.07% poverty rate, 56.37% non-hispanic white), Louisiana (18.05% pr, 58.33% nhw), New Mexico (17.90%, 36.68% nhw), West Virginia (16.84% pr, 91.55% nhw, Kentucky (15.82% pr, 84.08% nhw), Arkansas (15.51% pr, 71.55% nhw), Alabama (15.03% pr, 65.24% nhw), Oklahoma (14.63% pr, 64.9% nhw), South Carolina (13.92% pr, 63.44% nhw), and Tennessee (13.74% pr, 73.38% nhw).
So if your premise is true, that "most people who are poor are poor because of bad decisions in their life", then white people in rural states the ones that lack personal responsibility, make bad decisions, and don't control their own lives. According to you, it's their fault that their lives are screwed up.
Rural white people aren't irresponsible idiots who deserve to be poor. Your worldview is distorted by your ignorance. You should try becoming better-informed.
the thing about generalizations is they're generally true. in this case i'm 99.99% correct. own your life and your decisions. someone else is not responsible for your bad decisions.
Well shit. Then those rural red state white folks can't make good decisions to save their lives. They may want to learn from the urban blue state black folks who aren't nearly as poor, and so are obviously making better life decisions, according to you.
Holy heck!! The self-entitled "I am God" arrogance is off the charts..
That is as F'En retarded as the left pretending that not getting ROBBED blind by their armed-Nazi-officers (IRS) is dismissing "personal responsibility".
Perhaps "personal responsibility" has something to do with living one's life WITHOUT other people's interference/input (i.e. being self-sustaining)...
Yet here you are trying to pretend !!-YOUR-!! MANDATES are just magically other people's "personal responsibility"... UR a self-centered arrogant P.O.S. aren't you. Must be a politician.
Ever hear of free contraceptives and condoms? Keeping your legs shut is free as well.
So it's the woman's fault? And your reason for assuming birth control wasn't used was ... what again?
No, but women do have more effective liability in an unintended pregnancy. Behaving accordingly is prudent.
Unless forced to endure ignorance-only sex education, most people know about and use birth control. That doesn't always prevent pregnancy.
What makes you think they don't?
"Ever hear of free contraceptives and condoms? Keeping your legs shut is free as well."
^^^THERE^^^
The REAL reason Pro-Life mob is Pro-Life...
They feel it's a SIN to have sex for any other reason than to procreate (second time this has come to light in the discussion)....
It's a RELIGIOUS dictation... Making religious law.
The U.S. Constitution doesn't grant the majority [WE] mob Gov-Gun POWER to inflict the citizens with one's religious beliefs.
I'm looking forward to the day when all miss-carriages need to be reported and documented to the local police.
Hmmm, maybe but sensors in the sewage lines to detected fertilized eggs that never implanted... Make sure that wasn't because of some nefarious chemical!
Maybe we can expand the jails some more.
BTW, if life begins and fertilization, are we going to adjust the day someone can drink, join the army, smoke etc. accordingly?
"I'm looking forward to the day when all miss-carriages need to be reported and documented to the local police."
So...never?
Are all heart attacks reported to the police in spite of our "no murder" laws?
This talking point is borderline moronic.
"Hmmm, maybe but sensors in the sewage lines to detected fertilized eggs that never implanted... Make sure that wasn't because of some nefarious chemical!"
This crossed "borderline" to the realm of the mind-bogglingly moronic.
"BTW, if life begins and fertilization, are we going to adjust the day someone can drink, join the army, smoke etc. accordingly?"
You should try and pretend to know what you're talking about.
This talking point is borderline moronic.
Sometimes the users is also a tool.
I am generally sympathetic to the pro-life point of view, especially for later term abortions, but don’t think the government should ban them before that, or in later cases where there could be risks to the mother. If they ban abortion drugs, what’s to stop them from arresting a woman who endangers her fetus by drinking alcohol, coffee, or smoking, even occasionally ?
That, said -democrats want to ban plenty of THINGS and I won’t vote for any politician that wants to ban.
"......and I won’t vote for any politician that wants to ban."
good luck finding one you can vote for, then.
George Carlin said that Republicans care about babies until they're born. They fuck 'em they're on their own. It's funny because it's true.
TheyThenWHERE'S MY EDIT BUTTON?!?!?
The existence of Crisis Pregnancy Centers put the lie to that assertion. It also seems to come out of the fundamental fallacy of authoritarians that if you do think the government should do something, that means you do not want anything done by any institution or person.
You do know that jokes aren't mean to be taken completely literally, right?
You know that when you say something is funny because it is true, people reasonably assume you are making a literal statement, right?
That was a joke?
I think you have an eccentric idea of what a joke is.
I guess I will explain with small words. Republicans oppose abortion while also opposing social programs. So they care about babies until they are born. That doesn't mean that abortion is good or bad, that social programs are good or bad, or any other stupid-ass assumption you want to foist onto me so you can have impress the trolls by calling me names.
It's a joke.
I already addressed those points and I did not call you any names.
If you are making points then expect them to be rebutted if they are untrue. The idea that Republicans do not care about an issue because they do not think government should be involved is dishonest or based on authoritarian premises.
Sigh, and this is why we cannot get along.
Its not that Trumplicans oppose social programs, its that they think they are counter productive in the long run.
The problem is, in the short run you end up with under educated, starving kids running around drug and gang infested ghettos.
We can later throw them into over crowded prisons and spend more money on housing them in the prisons than the social programs would have cost in the first place.
Remember, Trumplicans are not the best at math and science - Pi equals 3, earth only 6000 years old.
So the hope is that one day, everyone will realize that welfair isn't the solution and they will educate themselves and get high paying jobs..... before they get pregnant.... or on drugs..... or join gangs.
As damikesc says, you might actually benefit learning about the topics before you write. Social programs that 'trumplicans' oppose have nothing to do with the poor quality of education. Your risible, and classist, racist description of the endstate of your in-group's preferred policies and laws demonstrates your inability to think critically. You are indeed con_fused, troll, and should stick to places where everybody agrees with your ignorant opinions. Nobody here cares if 'we cannot get along,' because you bring nothing but lies to the table.
Sigh about not being able to have a civil conversation about a sensitive topic and then immediately present a twisted, idiotic view of the people who you disagree with.
Yep, makes sense.
"It's funny because it's true."
"Jesus, why do you people think I meant it literally."
Man, the brazenness.
Cue Flintstones backpedaling effect.
Not to mention the innumerable charities Republicans start, work with, and donate to. Food Pantries all over the place, family services, ChildFund, Salvation Army, etc.
Republicans tend to look less favorably on government funded charity but encourage private support, though this isn't universal. There's lots of big entitlement spending that starts with Republicans.
You mean like Trump charity?
Or Steve Bannon's?
Trumplicans don't like government charities because they are so afraid that they will be abused.
AND
They don't want to be force to pay for anything. There's a reason why red states tend to have crappy roads.
Odd that Republicans are more charitable than Democrats, no?
Only if you consider church donations, most of which do not go to charities but to the church and pastors/priests.
Take away museums and universities --- shall we discuss where THAT money goes --- the Left basically hoards all of their money.
Just sayin'.
I've seen Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist hospitals funded by churches...not many from museums.
Right, because there are absolutely no pregnancy centers out there or charities dedicated to helping mothers cope with pregnancy.
I'm not even getting into this with you. Talk about someone who takes everything literally and has a literal stick up his ass. Nope. Sorry.
When you say "literal stick up his ass," did you mean that literally?
"I'm not even getting into this with you."
Why not? I am one of the few people who will actually engage with you on substance. But for some reason, I am not worth your time.
Mind you, I can go to pretty much any thread, all day long, and see multiple of the same posts from you trying to antagonize the people you say are mean to you. Day in, day out, you will post the same exact schtick. "Oh look at all those stupid conservatives and their dumb arguments." Followed by, "Oh woe is me, these people just won't leave me alone."
You have all the time in the world to play that creepy victim signaling game with your antagonists. But I have a "literal" stick up my ass for disagreeing substantively.
What does that mean about you? What is up your ass that makes you squirm and complain day in and day out but keep coming back for more, calling for the mean girls to cram it in again and again?
Uhm, you said "cope with pregnancy" the question is what help is available POST pregnancy.
Lets start with an easy one. Daycare support? Presumably a young mother might need a little financial help to get 'going'.
Daycare support so the mother can work a high paying job? How about if she needs to finish school (college or high school)? Oh, I know, we get the guy that raped her to pay child support. I'm sure that will cover it (does he get visitation rights if he cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed rape?)
Pro-lifers are quite supportive of adoption. If the mother is unable to care for the child, there are plenty of people who would be happy to do so.
Well then pro-lifers should probably get working. There are already thousands of children of all ages (including newborn infants) waiting for adoption.
So please stop with "there are plenty of people who would adopt those kids". That opportunity already exists and it isn't being taken.
It's like whichever Harbaugh coaches Michigan saying they would adopt any kids of their players and thinking it makes him look moral. Conditional actions predicated on political beliefs while ignoring the need that already exists makes you look like a sanctimonious jackass, not a hero.
Crisis pregnancy centers exist to manipulate women who are seeking an abortion and delaybtheir pregnancies until they are legally impermissable. They are awful people doing awful things for, in their minds, all the right reasons.
Crisis pregnancy centers are inherently dishonest and an exercise in political beliefs, not an attempt to help women with unwanted pregnancies.
They aren't trying to "[help] mothers cope with pregnancy". They are trying to do anything they can, no matter how dishonest or immoral, to prevent the woman from getting an abortion. After that, they don't care. Their focus is their own moral and political beliefs, not the welfare of the mother.
Claiming they help pregnant women is a lie.
It's possibly the least insightful and most untrue thing George Carlin - who is generally great - ever said
George Carlin said that Republicans care about babies until they're born. They fuck 'em...
I thought that was democrats.
how about you look at the facts. the urban black communities have a very high single mother rate because fathers "fuck 'em they're on their own". last time i checked the black community voted about 90% democrat.
I guess the "black communities" are still pissed about the 'State rights" thing. Go figure.
...yet they vote for the party that oppressed them before and does so now...
The protests about “States Rights” was part of the massive Democrat resistance to removing their pernicious policy of “Separate But Equal”, preventing school integration. Brown vs. Board of Education was a repudiation of Democrats deeply racist notion of state control over various ethnicities.
Now, once again “separate but equal” is the contemporary progressive Democrat desired end state, and removing state constitutional bans on government’s disparate treatment of various races was the California Democrats’ legislatures attempt on the 2020 ballot to drag the populace into the wonderland of State Racialism. If you don’t agree to the gleichshaltung, the Democrats call you fascist.
Democrats just cannot help but to be filthy racist Statist swine.
Yeah, and when the Dems started rejecting such policies, most of them became Republicans. Those policies haven't been part of the Democratic party since LBJ was president.
So yes, a Democrat in the 1950s believed what you say. Today? Not so much.
Democrats have a lot of bad policies, mostly economic. But racism isn't one of them.
That isn't a racist stereotype at all. And throwing in guilt by association AND an assumption that everyone is a single-issue voter? That is pure genius.
look at the stats and you'll see that i'm correct
But there's nothing wrong with being a single parent. That's the problem with your position.
And gave no facts or statistics or any reason to support such an idiotic joke of a statement. If Carlin chooses not to work and faces homelessness or his wife decides to have sex and becomes pregnant and has a baby, why should anyone, including 'democrats', 'libertarians' 'republicans' or 'government' care? They are private people making private decisions.
The democrats are the ones who tend to fuck children. Our current president is provably on the supply side of this issue. With his own daughter. Based on her authenticated diary.
Where was your outrage over your fellow progressives banning speech of pregnancy crisis centers and pro-life individuals? Nowhere. Where was your outrage over the post-birth abortion regimes of your fellow travellers? Nowhere. So fuck of with your unprincipled selective outrage.
"Where was your outrage over your fellow progressives banning speech of pregnancy crisis centers and pro-life individuals?"
I'm against it. Crisis preganacy centers are dishonest lie factories, but they shouldn't have their speech curtailed or be required to provide abortion information (which I don't think they have to most places).
"Where was your outrage over your fellow progressives banning speech of pregnancy crisis centers and pro-life individuals?"
After birth, a fetus is, by virtually everyone's.dedinitikn, a baby and a person. They cannot be killed. Killing a baby after it has been born is an abomination.
You seem to have a distorted and inaccurate understanding of people in general and pro-life people specifically. You should get out more.
Was there supposed to be ellipsis between points (1) and (3), or does NARAL not know how to count?
Sorry, not NARAL, but NRL. Eh, one of those abortion-related agitators.
So I guess there are "black markets" in things like murder and robbery then, right?
Abortion is a difficult subject for me. But for those who sincerely believe it's murder, this "black market" argument is absurd.
They don't call it a black market, but obviously it is one, right? Selling one's services in murder, selling known-to-be-stolen goods.
You make something illegal, it's just illegal, not impossible.
"So I guess there are "black markets" in things like murder and robbery then, right?"
Yes, there are.
"But for those who sincerely believe it's murder, this "black market" argument is absurd."
Those who believe it is murder need to actually provide convincing proof that their belief is factual, not just opinion. They have failed to do so. Even in the last 50 years, spending billions of dollars, they have failed.
It's not that people don't understand the issues or know the arguments of anti-abortionists. People just overwhelmingly reject them.
People who believe it is murder don't get to force their unsubstantiated belief on everyone else.
American may disagree about abortion, but the majority of Americans are still fine with the one trimester rule. It's the All or Nothing folks who are doing the disagreeing.
and now we all get to vote on the matter. if your state conflicts with your ideals then rent a uhaul and move.
So authoritarianism is OK as long as there's somewhere else to go? And people who don't like their rights being infringed have to move while the totalitatianists get to stay? You don't see any problem with that worldview?
Do you support pure democracy as well?
i don't support murdering babies
No one is murdering babies.
Abortionists are murdering babies.
No, they aren't. Your personal beliefs are that they are murdering babies. But that and $5 will get you a froofy drink from Starbucks.
Come to me when you establish your foundational belief, that a fertilized egg is a person, as a generally acknowledged truth. Until then, your opinion is relevant and deterministic to only one person: you.
try to keep up with current events. the entire democrat party, planned parenthood and everyone else who supports abortion wants & supports abortion up until the last millisecond before birth. in colorado you can legally abort during birth. so we're not just talking about the fetal stage of development and yes babies are being murdered.
There is nothing remotely accurate in that entire post.
you're not keeping up with events:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/07/on-late-term-abortion-2020-democrats-are-to-the-left-even-of-obama-in-2008/
Yet the Dobbs case was for a ban after the first trimester. Odd.
Yet most people support second trimester abortions as well. Granted it's only by about 5 points rather than over 25, like first trimester abortions, but it's still the tyranny of the minority.
If only there was a way to allow people to follow their own conscience. A way that unsubstantiated moral beliefs weren't forced on everyone, regardless of their lack of public support and factual support. A way that prevented the government from infringing on individual decision-making.
Oh, right. Like it has been for almost 50 years. Apparently we can't have nice things like freedom, liberty, and private medical decision-making.
Since when does freedom include the right to j laterally decide to kill another person?
Since when does freedom mean the roght to unilaterally force your unsupported fringe beliefs on everyone else?
Abortion is murder like aliens are living amongst us. A small group of people passionately believe it, but there is no objective evidence of it.
To be fair, people who believe in aliens actually try to make a case for their beliefs being true.
Anti-abortionists never bother trying to establish their belief that a fertilized egg is a person. They have spent billions on emotional and religious influence campaigns, but no actual, hard, objective facts.
Yet leaving any "week" to State's sold ALL week Individual Rights down the river. They essentially ruled the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect Individual Liberty of those 'icky' sinners (per religious indoctrination).
Everyone knows that... It's religious freak-jobs stuffing their religion onto other people by Gov-Gun forces.
Any comments on why, if first trimester is acceptable, why SCOTUS even had to hear a case involving second trimester restrictions?
Because a fetus also isn't a person for most (if not all) of the second trimester as well?
How is it not a person?
Simple. Personhood is a legal concept. There is literally a law that says that the words "person", "human being", "child" and "individual" only applies to those born alive. Which is also defined: "the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.".
So no. A fetus is absolutely, legally, and definitively NOT a person.
for fuck's sake just go to the next state over, murder your baby, and stop whining about prohibition.
^ this. A few states with abortion restrictions that (barely) eclipse those in most of Europe, all the while just 2 hours down the road from an abortion free-for-all state is hardly worth the endless handwringing
I know we're in some weird time when words don't mean what they mean, but the repeated "prohibition" around here is getting ludicrous
It's libertarian logic. Alcohol prohibition was government forbidding something. Alcohol prohibition was bad. Therefore, government forbidding something is bad.
You want us to believe that there aren't prohibitions on abortion? And you want is to take you seriously? Because those two are mutually exclusive.
It's easier to telemed to a free state, since the vast majority of abortions require a couple of pills. Since anti-abortionists claim they don't want to punish the woman, that would solve the problem. Granted the reports of stomach ulcers and depression will skyrocket, but that's just the cost of freedom.
Yes, I would imagine murdering one’s own child would cause depression in a non sociopathic individual. And you do know that abortions, being unnatural, tend to cause physical problems for women, regardless of the procedure type, right?
"Yes, I would imagine murdering one’s own child would cause depression in a non sociopathic individual."
As mentioned repeatedly, you thinking it's murder doesn't make it so.
"And you do know that abortions, being unnatural, tend to cause physical problems for women, regardless of the procedure type, right?"
Jesus. You'll believe anything that your fellow travellers feed you, won't you? Are you going to tell me that it increases the chance of cancer? Shortens lifespan? Causes infertility? How stupid do you think people are?
Run, run, run --- from our Tyrannical Religious-Puritan Dictation....
Wow... What a great place for the USA to be at. /s
"When there is such deep, sincerely held disagreement about matters of such personal import..."
Personal import... is that another way of saying "my truth" KMW?
"Americans disagree about abortion. This is the understatement of 2022, yet it bears repeating in the wake of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the June Supreme Court decision that returned abortion policy to state and federal legislatures. Ten states have already banned abortion and another four have prohibited abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, which amounts to nearly the same thing."
So, 14 states out of 50 have banned abortion. If my cyphering is correct that mean 36 states have not banned abortion, hence abortion is not banned.
Federal law is now mute on the issue of abortion (it is neither banned, nor allowed), and leaves it to states to manage. democracy is restored. Can't we all just cheer the return of democracy? Isn't the "end of democracy" the favorite slogan of the left, while they trash our constitutional republic?
When the left talks about "democracy", they talk about a national dictatorship of the proletariat, a national socialism if you will.
Subsidiarity and pluralism are anathema to the left.
I disagree about the left being in any way concerned, except in public rhetoric, about the working class. There is a term they use, 'workerism.' The left is the party of useless degrees and credentials, and this is who they want in charge. They are no different from any other aristocracy, plutocracy.
I agree. That's why I said that that's what they are "talking about", not what they are actually accomplishing.
Sure they are. Aristocratic government generally has a long term, multi-generational interest in the success of the nation. Plutocracy is government by the wealthy, who often become wealthy through merit. The left doesn't fit into either of those two categories, they are worse than both.
Leftist government tends towards kakistocracy.
"hence abortion is not banned."
So if it isn't 100% banned, it should be treated as if it's 0% banned? Can you be any more dishonest?
Summary....
U.S. Constitution protecting Individual liberty is now mute on the issue of abortion...
"democracy is restored"
U just described EXACTLY why the USA sucks today and is falling apart.
The USA is a *****************CONSTITUTIONAL*********** Union of Republican States.
Re-Defining the USA as a "democracy" is exactly what's turning it into a Nazi-Regime.
Well, let's see where we can take this kind of argument:
Apparently, according to Reason, government shouldn't impose prohibitions on slavery because otherwise, we get "messy, deadly black markets" in slaves.
Well, when you prohibited slavery state by state ("State's rights") and then impose federal law "fugitive slave act" - some people get a bit agitated.
Lets wait for the first case of someone "illegally" sending abortion pills in the federal mail...
Isn’t that what illegal immigration is?
No. Illegal immigration is people voluntary coming into this country to work under conditions that are worse than conditions for citizens but better than conditions in their countries of origin. There is no compulsion or enslavement involved. (Well, US citizens are forced to subsidize illegal aliens through their taxes, but that's another matter.)
And look what happened with the government did try to ban it? A war with hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers. Displaced families and broken homes.
I'm not sure whether you're serious. To be clear: the civil war wasn't primarily about slavery, and it certainly wasn't an attempt to maintain a black market in slaves, so it isn't an instance of the economic phenomenon Mangu-Ward is hinting at.
"the civil war wasn't primarily about slavery"
This is part of the revisionist historical theory called the Lost Cause of the Confederacy. It is nonsense.
Do you call it the War of Northern Aggression as well?
"Apparently, according to Reason, government shouldn't impose prohibitions on slavery because otherwise, we get "messy, deadly black markets" in slaves."
Do you believe every dishonest talking point amd false equivalency that anti-abortionists put out there? Or do you just love sophistry?
Americans disagree about abortion.
Wait, what happened to the "remarkably stable consensus" on abortion?
There is. The support for the various general categories (always illegal, illegal in most cases, legal in most cases, or always legal) have remained very stable for decades. Most people supported legal abortion in the 70s. There is roughly the same support today as there was then.
That is why there is "remarkable stable consensus" on abortion. It has been largely unchanged (and clearly pro-choice) for 50 years.
That doesn't mean there isn't disagreement. It just means most people are pro-choice and have been for decades.
"Americans disagree about abortion."
AND HERE'S THE KICKER....
They CAN disagree....
Because it's PERSONAL not a Lock-Step [WE] gang "whoever gets the most GUNS wins!" subject. Touting "democracy" ([WE] gang dictation) over Individual Liberty and Justice for all is EXACTLY what's destroying the USA.
Abortion is a question of property rights, who owns the womb? Obviously the woman does. Forcing her to use it against her will is in fact slavery. Even if a fetus has rights it has no right to use force against the woman. The fact is a fetus survives solely on the goodwill of the woman.
But what if the fetus is a girl with a uterus of her own? Then the adult woman would be using force against another's womb. OMG. My head is spinning in circles. The logic. I. must. maintain. the. logic.
Wombception.
glad you solved everything.
Nobody is forcing women to do anything against their will. Anti-abortion laws merely restrict the availability of a medical procedure, something that all Americans are subject to in many areas of medicine.
The woman chose to put the fetus there; in doing so, she took on the obligation to carry it to term.
"merely restrict the availability of a medical procedure, something that all Americans are subject to in many areas of medicine"
As the true leftard starts to shine out of Pro-Life Republicans.
Perhaps UR just a fan of universal healthcare (Gov-Gun) healthcare??
"she took on the obligation to carry it to term"
On who's "obligation" authority? Gotta a signed contract?
Who is the womb for? It's for the woman? What does it do for the woman? Or is the womb specifically for the fetus? Is it an organ that was created/evolved to carry and support the life of the fetus?
The womb isn't a muscle, or a kidney, or liver. It's for the fetus and the fetus alone. A fetus has every right to use that womb as it needs, as that's the natural place for the fetus. It's natural right to be there.
As I've said before... Pro-Life is no different than a [WE] mob packing Gov-Guns for FORCED organ donations.
This is, roughly, the core of the evictionist argument. Property rights as a basis for abortion policy. Walter Block is a libertarian who I've seen argue it in debates. I don't find it compelling, but you should check it out.
^THAT is what this whole thing seems to really be about...
God himself gave Women SOLE responsibility of reproduction. This made wanna-be Gods very envious so now they'll pull out Gov-Guns to correct Gods mistakes...
Does this same logic apply to assault weapons?
In July, a group of congressional Democrats sent a letter to Google, demanding restrictions on search results for abortion-related terms that refer users to anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D–Mass.) took things a step further, introducing a bill calling for the closure of the centers under the rubric of "disinformation." Republicans responded with a measured and principled defense of free speech and free association. Just kidding! They wrote a letter to Google threatening legal action if Google ceded to Democratic demands.
Unfortunately this is what happens when corporations, almost entirely loyal to a particular arm of the government are used as outsourced contractors for censorship regimes.
We can continue to 'bowf sidez' this until the cows come home, but at some point, the tech companies need to tell (yes, both) sides to fuck off. But unfortunately, they continue to both publicly and privately cozy up to one particular ideological arm of the State, while waving their
first amendmentsection 230 rights.I mean, Jesus, we have a long, and now irrefutably proven track record of Democrats communicating with the Tech companies, making censorship demands of them, and the tech companies gleefully acquiescing to said demands and ALL of it has been done under the rubric of free speech. And you expected a neutral, untargeted speech from the Republicans about the rubric of free speech? I can understand how the Republicans might look at such a speech as an endorsement of the tech companies banning any anti-abortion literature or communication.
Democrats: Ban anti-abortion stuff!
Tech companies: We can ban anything we want because banning stuff is a form of expression! *donates $40,000,000 to the warren campaign*
Republicans: Free speech and the right to ban stuff must not be interfered with!
Another rousing meeting of Libertarians For Statist Womb Management has been convened by the faux libertarian right-wingers who frequent this site.
(Joint meeting with Libertarians For Superstition-Based Big-Government Micromanagement Of Ladyparts Clinics.)
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit.
Laws against slavery leads to a black market in repeal the 13th amendment now. See how fucking dumb this line of reasoning is?
You get a 95/100 in false analogies and a 97 in misleading cause-and-effect. Your total sophistry score is 192/200, giving you a 96%. Congratulations, you are an honors student in bullshit.
Before abortion-on-demand was available, women went to Mexico to dispose of their babies. Now they just have to go to another state. What black market? And the lib states should be glad to get the money.
Every abortion is abortion on demand. The only way an abortion happens is if someone asks for one.
Yeah it's pretty pathetic when Mexico starts to show itself as the land of the free.
It is what it is, the people will ultimately decide.
Apparently... Politicians will ultimately decide.
Instead of PEOPLE who are actually pregnant.
We know what happens when government outlaws murder: messy black markets (where do I go kill people for fun, asking for a friend?)
Yawn.
Don't kill my 'unicorn'!!!!/s
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. fetal ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
Quit pretending that legal abortion is a libertarian issue.
It isn't.
Unless you focus on the baby's right to life. Because abortion kills a separate and unique living human being that has every right to life without being carved to pieces and vacuumed away like trash because the mom thinks having a baby is inconvenient.
So? Libertarians don't believe that it is their job to stop every murder on this planet through government intervention. "Your abortion is murder, but it's not my business." is a perfectly consistent libertarian position.
"So? Libertarians don't believe that it is their job to stop every murder on this planet through government intervention."
But libertarians are against murder, and they consider law enforcement as one of the few legitimate roles of government.
A libertarian can only be for abortion if they do not consider a fetus to be not to be an individual, even after a heartbeat. Leftists know this, that's why they characterize a fetus as a "Clump of cells" or a "parasite".
If a fetus is a human being, than libertarians who argue in favor of open borders on moral grounds (the constitution does not allow this) must reckon with their supposed principle of radical autonomy.
If y
"A libertarian can only be for abortion if they do not consider a
fetuspregnant woman to be an individual..."Fixed it.
Damn. Let's try again:
"A libertarian can only be
foragainst abortion if they do not consider a <del fetus pregnant woman to be an individual..."OK, I quit.
Libertarians are split on whether law enforcement or a legal system is a legitimate function of government. Many libertarians believe that all legal issues should be resolved via civil suits, based on damages alone.
Again, you are missing the point: libertarians generally do not accept the premise that it is the function of government to punish every human being on the planet who murders another human being.
I am against abortion. I don't want to pay for other people's abortions. But neither do I want to pay for law enforcement or the justice system to go after doctors or women who perform abortions. Whether some woman murders her unborn child is outside my circle of moral and legal responsibility.
That's why the libertarian position of making the entire legal system consist of civil suits based on actual harm and damages makes sense.
Well, abortion isn't murder, so your argument falls apart.
Isn’t the Reason solution to the abortion question more butt sex?
With Mexicans, while getting high.
The solution is a different replacement: getting rid of superstitious republican pederast politicians and replacing them with libertarian officeholders or the next best thing, whichever voters choose first.
Of course it's a libertarian issue. The only person involved in the situation is having their rights infringed by the government. That's kinda what libertarians care about.
Why would anyone carve anything into pieces and vacuum it out? It takes 2 pills for 90% of abortions and there have been zero medically unnecessary IDXs performed since terrorists assassinated Dr. Tiller.
You are making a whole lot of unsubstantiated assertions about some random woman to justify your ignorance, so I guess we should pretend you aren't making shit up because your really, really believe it's true.
Then why do progressives get so pushed out of shape when Republicans propose laws that limit abortion to 6 weeks or when the life of the mother is at risk? I mean, you're saying that pretty much all abortions already fall into those two categories.
There is no actual logic to a 6 week (or 15 week, for that matter) ban. The heart doesn't form until about 10 weeks, so there isn't even a heartbeat at 6 weeks. Even when there is a heart, the minimum requirements for life don't yet exist (and won't for months), so it is an arbitrary threshold.
More importantly, the onus is on those who want to ban something to explain why it is justified. The default isn't restriction. The default is freedom. If you wish to constrain someone else's decisions, there has to be a valid, objective reason why. "I think it's wrong" isn't good enough.
Requiring freedom to justify itself or the government can impose anything it wants on people is the wrong way around. Government needs to justify restricting freedom.
Just lying in general now huh?
abortion kills a ???---separate---???
Brazilian women, thanks in large part to Reason and the LP, have also discovered the concept of a woman having individual rights even after sex! The current girl-bullying mystical caudillo thinks of little but forcing women to reproduce at gunpoint and having potheads gunned down. The genius let his URL expire, so bolsonaro.com.br now serves up opposition propaganda rougher even than a South Park episode. The only female support the guy has is in convents.
Interesting editorial choice here.... Poor and Minorities are "People" but the wealthy are "Women". Why the difference? This is a women's issue, let's not dilute that message.
"As with other prohibitions, poor people and minorities will suffer most. People without resources in states with harsh restrictions will carry unwanted babies to term and, if current trends hold, they will most often keep them despite financial or personal difficulties they will face in doing so. Wealthy women will be able to travel to get abortions, and they will be able to hire lawyers to get them out of trouble when they get caught. In those cases, the new laws won't stop those women from getting abortions; instead they will simply get abortions secretly, unsupported, at greater expense, and far from home."
The Dilbert cartoonist also thought being de-individualized of personhood and rights is a women's issue and that women should vote to decide it. But if so, why do women not poll women and publish the results? I see it as much like the "Jewish issue" of the interwar period and am glad the women of Kansas, California, DC
and 19 more States plus Ireland, Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, Canada, Europe... appreciate individual rights. But men should realize that nationalsocialism has come for the individual this time.
Americans disagree about abortion.
This is not true.
The vast majority of Americans agree that abortion should be legal, with restrictions.
Fringes on either side want abortion made illegal or want abortion completely unrestricted and possibly state-funded.
The current issue is that too many people --a majority-- favor a level of restriction on abortion that pro-life people can live with -and that pro-abortion people usually work within.
THIS!!!
I dunno what is wrong with young people--and yes, I'm talking about you KMW--that makes them adopt the enemy's terms. Rand's advisor Mencken saw things clearly when speaking of the work of judges: "[I]t is Prohibition—whether of winebibbing, of drug-taking, of interstate weekending, or of whatnot—that has carried him beyond the bounds of what, to most normal men, is common decency." Prohibition wrecks the economy and is repealed. War is something ended by surrender or extermination. Killing federal agents made people happy, but votes did the repealing.
"Any good-faith conversation about abortion begins with a recognition that there may indeed be competing moral or legal claims between the woman and the fetus—between the mother and her child, if you like."
you don't have to look very far to see that the anti-abortion crowd has absolutely no interest in a good faith conversation. for many of them, they probably don't care even half as much as they pretend, it is just part of the culture war and they are towing the hardcore line for the team they have chosen. they don't really care about abortion at 15 versus 20 weeks, they just want to poke a liberal in the eye.
Dear FOO: At least one attempt was made years ago to bring pro-life activists and pro-choice activists together for possible dialogue. This happened in Boston in the mid-90s following the killing and wounding of women's health clinics staff by a lone, homicidal gunman. Subsequently local leaders from both sides agreed to sit down together to attempt conversation. Both sides were extremely wary at first, but what was initially intended as a series of only four sessions turned into a six-year effort. Participants on neither side experienced changes of mind about the basic issue, but they did experience changes in the ways they viewed the other side. In short, they stopped demonizing the women on the other side. They found that they could speak with each other freely and with respect. In short, they found that they could care about each other as women, as people. Unfortunately it took a horrible atrocity to bring these women together, and that may be true now just as then. I hope to God I'm wrong.
Go here to read the story:
https://www.feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/talkingwith.html
Won't poor people and minorities BENEFIT the most because they will be killed in the womb less?
Depending on what kind of life you might be facing, being killed in the womb could be a benefit.
Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to "kill" that wart on my finger??
Why it's just another "gonna kill us all" excuse for more Gov-Guns needed manipulative trick.
I'm sick of hearing "my body = my choice" from people who apply that standard only to their bodies and their choices.
Cuomo and DeBlasio, with full support of the political Left, the Democrat party and the mainstream media, spent all of 2020 and much of 2021 telling me whether, when and for what purpose I could take my body outside my own apartment.
This protected nobody else. This was never an issue of my rights ending where someone else's rights began. Everyone is free to stay home and order Amazon and Doordash, and my right to go out is neither superior nor inferior to yours.
Everyone was free to do that in Florida, too.
The difference is that in Florida, people were ALSO free to go out, and keep their businesses open, and keep their jobs - and most people did.
So unless you're willing to agree that DeSantis and Sweden did it right (by the way, not that this is the point, but their overall COVID stats weren't any worse than New York's or the rest of Europe's, respectively), I don't care that you have to fly from Florida to New York to get an abortion. AOC flew from New York to Florida to enjoy spring break mask-less, but the rest of us couldn't fly from New York to Florida to keep our jobs or businesses.
I'll support abortion rights actively when NARAL and NOW and Planned Parenthood agree that the mandates were wrong, support ending the vaccine mandates, and support ending selective service, drug prohibition, open container laws, flavored vape bans, menthol cigarette bans and prohibition of the sex trade.
Until then, karma's a B.