What the Methodist Split Tells Us About American Political Polarization
However this denominational divorce plays out, theology around same-sex relationships isn’t the only thing driving Methodists apart.

The United Methodists are the second-largest Protestant Christian denomination in the United States, and they're headed for a split.
That might seem like an internecine affair, something of interest mainly to Methodists or, at most, other churches hoping to poach some congregants amid the chaos. But big church splits as politically tinged as this one can be a revealing microcosm of our politics as a whole. And Methodism—which has long held something of a median position in American Protestantism, given Methodists' historical location between Episcopalians (stereotypically elite, urban, center-left) and Pentecostals (stereotypically poor, rural, populist)—might be uniquely well-suited to provide a religious microcosm of our national polarization and its rising risks.
The precipitating issues for this looming Methodist crackup, as in so many other churches over the past two decades, are gay marriage and ordination. A large (and overwhelmingly traditional) African contingent in the denomination plus the interruptions of COVID have made for a long and complicated separation process. United Methodists tentatively agreed on a protocol for breaking up the denomination in early 2020, but this summer, a group of conservative churches preemptively launched their own new denomination, after which more progressive groups rejected the 2020 plan. The issue may now remain in limbo until the denomination's next General Conference, which, due to COVID, was bumped all the way to 2024.
For now, it's too soon to say exactly who will get what—the name, the buildings, the seminaries, the bureaucracy, the debts—or even what will remain to divide, as conservative journalist (and Methodist) W. James Antle III writes, given the denomination's recent history of "squabbling" and "increasingly empty pews." Yet however this denominational divorce plays out, theology around same-sex relationships isn't the only thing driving Methodists apart. "There are parts of the church in which traditional trinitarian thinking is beginning to morph into Unitarian thought," Bishop Gary Mueller told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. "However, there are also parts of the church where I am concerned that traditional Christian orthodox thought is beginning to resemble white Christian nationalism."
That's a brief but very suggestive sketch. It envisions the leftward edge drifting into secularism with limited use for God, while the rightward edge moves into a nationalist syncretism that makes God the servant of the state. Even if these two factions could figure out a way to live with one another where gay marriage and ordination are concerned, there's no basis there for staying united—not with the other extreme, but also not with the Methodists stuck in the middle.
If you're not a Methodist, though, why should you care? For starters, non-Methodists should care about rising secularity and its potential implications for religious liberty. As religiosity declines—and especially religiosity which entails beliefs and practices that put adherents significantly at odds with the American mainstream—religious liberty will most likely be of personal interest to an ever-smaller portion of Americans.
A Methodist who is functionally a Unitarian and wholly supportive of gay marriage has much less need of religious liberty protections in the America of 2022 than a Methodist who is opposed to gay marriage and believes that requires her to, say, refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding. There are plenty of people who will defend religious liberty to the hilt even if they are not themselves religious, but that kind of principled, consistent civil libertarianism is rarer than we might wish. Many people in practice will only defend the rights they themselves exercise. That means waning religiosity comes with the risk of waning religious liberty.
Next is the Christian nationalism, which is lately much in the headlines thanks to Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene's (R–Ga.) decision to embrace the label and, at the Conservative Political Action Conference last week, to falsely claim it applies to most other Americans, too. Christian nationalism, as Georgetown University scholar Paul D. Miller argues in The Religion of American Greatness, is not "a lovable excess in patriotism and piety" but an "incoherent," "illiberal," and—for Christians—"often idolatrous" fusion of faith and state. Miller says it isn't "a catch-all term for any kind of Christian political advocacy," as Greene has tried to assert. Rather, the "unique feature of Christian nationalism is that it defines America as a Christian nation," he writes, "and it wants the government to promote a specific Anglo-Protestant cultural template as the official culture of the country."
It's easy to imagine, particularly in a country as religiously and culturally diverse as ours, the dangerous places to which Christian nationalism could lead. And it's bad enough as an inchoate folk impulse which mixes some disorganized attempts to claim special political privileges for Christians with mostly normal right-wing politics. But insofar as Christian nationalism becomes a defined political agenda which adherents are willing to claim by name—and that's quite a new phenomenon—those attempts are likely to become a more serious threat to liberty, not least because of nationalism's tendency to resort to force to achieve its ends.
Last is the worrisome prospect that history could rhyme. After all, this wouldn't be the first time the Methodist communion in America has split: The denomination's current nominal unity is actually a reunity. Methodists' best-known previous division came in the run-up to the Civil War, when the Methodist Episcopal Church, then America's largest Protestant denomination, schismed over slavery. The Baptists' Triennial Convention split the same year and for the same reason, which is how we got the Southern Baptists.
Historians and contemporaries alike agree those church splits prefigured and advanced the national division and war that came a decade and half later. And now, as then, formal church separations can make it easier to view the other side as an enemy, perhaps to be confronted with violence, so that what was intended to be a de-escalation measure becomes escalatory instead.
Maybe now, as then, churches are the canary in the coal mine, warning us of catastrophe we could still avert.
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Gay relationships are inconsistent with Christianity as written in the New Testament. The people who claim otherwise are just writing out the parts of the document they don't like. They are free to do that of course. They can make up whatever religion they want and can call it whatever they want including Christianity.
There is, however, no way to reconcile the two positions. Either Christianity as you see it thinks gays or groovy or thinks gay relationships are a sin. There is no middle ground. They only way people with such differing opinions can be members of the same church is if one of them is willing to bend to the other. It is really that simple.
This really isn't a sign of anything bigger than that. Two groups with irreconcilable positions are leaving their old organization and forming a new one. Reason should be happy about this. This is how freedom is supposed to work; everyone associates and is a member of organizations and groups that work for them.
There is no middle ground.
Yes, there is. The middle ground is to consider gay sex a sin, but no greater sin than any other. No Christian church has ever held the position that only those who never sin are welcome; rather, that the church is FOR sinners—in other words, everyone. Now, of course, the pro-gay activists are not going to accept that—they insist that Gay sex be accepted as NON-sinful.
Yes, there is. The middle ground is to consider gay sex a sin, but no greater sin than any other.
You are just explaining how not to accept it. You can't say gay sex is a sin and then give gay relationships the blessing of the church. The church may forgive you for sin but it sure as hell can't recognize and reward you for it. The pro gay marriage people in this debate want gay marriages recognized by the church and accepted just like straight ones are.
Why not? Lying about others is a sin. Do they only bless marriages if both partners absolutely never tell a lie? Stealing is a sin. Do churches only bless marriages if both parties never, ever, take anything that doesn't belong to them? Why treat only one sin as an absolute deal-breaker? But as we've both pointed out, the pro-gay activists themselves would not accept the status of being just another sinner.
They don't bless me bringing my mistress to services. They don't tell me that is okay and give me a special service sanctifying her as my mistress.
Marriage between straight people isn't a sin. It is a good thing and is encouraged. So the church sanctifies it. They don't or shouldn't sanctify gay marriage because being in a gay relationship is a sin just like me having a mistress is. The fact that we are all sinners doesn't mean the church has to accept our sins as being good. \
Your point is complete nonsense and misses the point. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.
They don't bless me bringing my mistress to services.
But if you're unmarried and bring your live-in baby mama to services, they don' throw you out. You're missing the point that there is no logical necessity to single out one particular sin as uniquely intolerable.
If I am unmarried and bring my illegitimate kid to services, they let me in but they tell me or should tell me I need to marry my baby mamma. They don't say how great it is that I am living in sin.
And there are plenty of churches that will deny membership to unwed couples, in fact all the churches I have experience with do
(membership in the church is not to be confused with ability to attend services, which anyone can do)
^this
Any traditional Christian church will welcome people living in sin (sexual vice, theft, abuse, chronic drunkenness, etc) but deny them membership until they repent. If a member begins to live in sin and refuses to repent and stop, they're expelled from the membership but can usually still attend.
Now do the Cardinal Sins. Because you likely have them memorized to avoid them, unlike others, here they are
Pride
Gluttony
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Greed
Lust
Looking forward to learning how well attended your church is after rejecting all those sinners in mortal sin. True, they may repent, but alas they do them again and again, kinda like those homosexuals who have 2 choices in life: commit suicide or accept their orientation and love God as He made them
Get to know the Bible. There is more than 10 verses in there that fundamentalists love to recite. Hypocrite
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Get to know the Bible. There is more than 10 verses in there that fundamentalists love to recite. Hypocrite
Thanks for admitting homosexuality is considered a sin. Faggot
1 Corinthians 7:8-9
"To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry."
Paul isn't quite saying its a sin, but not exactly upstanding. The original Christian understanding seems to have been that *all* sex was sinful, marriage just made it *less* sinful.
now dont go challenging them in the realm of Biblical exegesis. You might cause them to sin, and if that happens, they need to be tortured, beat, watch them pluck their eye out, etc, etc, etc, since we all know those proscriptions are in the Good Book.
you conservatives are pathetic
Stop punishing the rest of society for your daddy issues.
you generally have reasonable takes on the various subjects you comment on here at Reason but here i thnk you [and probably most others] are out of your depth.
Dont know if you have a bone to pick with religion for whatever reason [i think we can guess] but needless to say there is a deeper understanding to the justice system in the bible and what to the kind of understanding that shows it extensible over time. Not worth trying to sus out in this blog.
The headline should have read "what the methodist split tells us about the american political infiltration of religious institutions"
Uhhh… no.
If the church blesses a formal union between a thief and his fence, there would be a problem.
"rather, that the church is FOR sinners"
The church is for REPENTANT sinners. When you modify your proposition as such, you find that almost all christian denominations fit the bill (certainly all the major ones) but no church is going to say "oh that's just a minor sin, so go commit it all you want and just come back when you need more forgiveness." They are all going to expect a gay person to put effort into remaining abstinent.
But what's their approach to sin? As I understand Christianity, the deal is that you accept Jesus, and he then helps you stop sinning. The difference between various Christian sects is largely over what kind and degree of help Jesus gets institutionally in helping you to stop sinning. And they'll have disagreements over what constitutes sinning. But none of them want their church to be an enabler of your continued sinning.
@Vernon Depner,
I hear what you're saying, but Briggs is correct. It's not that Christians consider gay sex so much worse than other sins that they will go to "war" over it, but rather that the sinner is unrepentant.
Being gay is not the sin. We all are sinners. Living that lifestyle is the sin. Doing it unrepentantly is what the issue is. Most Christians would have no issues with a homosexual even in positions of authority in the church.
But living a gay lifestyle unrepentantly means that you are flaunting the rules of the church. The issue is the same with adultery for another example. An unrepentant adulterer would not be okay with the church either.
Again, you are certainly free to do whatever you like. That's between you and God, but the Church has rules. Very old rules.
Number of times Jesus mentioned homosexuality:
St. Pail's letter to Timothy
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
St. Paul's letter to the Corinthian
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
St. Paul's letter to the Romans
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
Jesus himself never talked about homosexuality directly because it wasn't necessary. Jesus preached to the Jews and the ways in which the Jews had not understood the laws of God and their end of the covenant with God. Homosexuality was verboten in Judaism. Since Jesus was there to correct the law, the fact that he never talked about homosexuality is pretty good evidence that he didn't have a problem with the Jewish prohibition of it. If he had, he certainly would have said so.
Paul was preaching to the gentiles many of whom did not object to homosexuality. So, Paul made it very clear that homosexuality was a sin.
Moreover, Paul is considered an apostle and his letters and words have the same force as the four Gospels. To say that homosexuality is not a sin, you have read Paul out of the Bible entirely because you don't like what he has to say.
you have read Paul out of the Bible entirely because you don't like what he has to say.
That idea has some merit.
Do what you want. But if you are just going to ignore whatever parts you don't like, why bother? Just live however you want and stop looking to a book or a religion to justify it.
Good idea.
How many times did Jesus mention homosexuality?
Zero because the standing rule was it was a sin. Jesus didn't mention a lot of things. The Jews stoned homosexuals to death. Jesus was changing the law. So, his failure to mention it, means it is a sin.
I know you are dumb as a post. But you surely are smart enough to understand that. So, stop pretending you don't. It just makes you look like the dishonest fuck you are. It is not a good look.
Zero because the standing rule was it was a sin.
So was adultery. And yet we know how Jesus treated a certain adulterer...
So no, just because he doesn't mention it, we cannot assume that he followed the Judaic practice at the time.
Besides, isn't that a bit presumptuous of you? To presume to know the mind of Christ?
Look out folks, captain atheist is here to school you on the Bible!
I grew up a religious Christian, so I do know a thing or two about it.
Besides, the story of Jesus showing grace to the adulterer isn't some obscure religious story.
I grew up a religious Christian, so I do know a thing or two about it.
"A thing or two" is a great example of the sum of your knowledge.
It's a wild overestimate
“Go, and sin no more.”
Is not an endorsement of prostitution.
I've always imagined her going straight from there to her boyfriend's house, and the two of them having a laugh at Jesus's gullibility.
"Besides, the story of Jesus showing grace to the adulterer isn't some obscure religious story."
It is. It's a late addition to the bible and almost certainly never happened. A wonderful story, nevertheless.
So was adultery. And yet we know how Jesus treated a certain adulterer...
Yeah, he told her, "Go and sin no more," not, "Don't worry, this isn't as big of a deal as it's been made out to be."
Right. The point is, he was not in favor of the traditional Judaic punishment of stoning, and he made that clear. So in my view it is an incorrect assumption to state that because Jesus didn't mention homosexuality at all, that he just accepted the Judaic law on the matter at the time as valid.
In absence of evidence to the contrary, that is exactly what you assume. There is no evidence Jesus accepted homosexuality. None. Indeed, no Christian theologian ever claimed he did until homosexuality became a pet cause in the late 20th Century.
Yet, you would have us assume that he did accept homosexuality and 2,000 years of tradition and theology and thought on the matter was wrong because REASONS. Just fuck off.
In absence of evidence to the contrary, that is exactly what you assume.
And the "evidence to the contrary" is that he did not follow Judaic law for other sinful acts of the time such as adultery. That is what you are ignoring.
Yet, you would have us assume that he did accept homosexuality
No, I would have us *conclude* that Jesus wasn't a fire-breathing zealot on the matter, because he never mentioned it, and the few times when he was given the option of applying harsh punishments to sinners, he chose not to do so.
The point is, you left out the part that undermined your argument.
So in my view it is an incorrect assumption to state that because Jesus didn't mention homosexuality at all, that he just accepted the Judaic law on the matter at the time as valid.
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
I haven't been to church in 30 years, and still remember this shit. What's your excuse?
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
And yet, when it came to the case of stoning the adulteress, he chose not to condone that practice...
And yet, when it came to the case of stoning the adulteress, he chose not to condone that practice...
And yet, he told her that what she did was a sin, and not to do it again.
So was adultery. And yet we know how Jesus treated a certain adulterer...
He forgave him. He didn't declare adultery was okay. God damn you are stupid.
So no, just because he doesn't mention it, we cannot assume that he followed the Judaic practice at the time.
Considering that his most important follower Paul did reject it, and there is zero evidence Jesus disagreed, we can assume just that. You fucking halfwit.
his most important follower Paul
It's unlikely that Paul ever even heard of Jesus.
Well, that's a new one.
Peter has entered the chat…
He forgave him. He didn't declare adultery was okay.
Her. The adulterer in the story was a woman. Funny how such a self-proclaimed Bible expert doesn't know that.
Nope he didn't declare adultery was okay. But he also didn't condemn her to Hell over it.
Not if she didn't do it again, yes. If she kept wantonly sinning and sinning and sinning, that's another matter.
The Law doesn't say anything about condemning the perp to "Hell" for committing a capital offense. First of all, ancient law is different from modern law. Even Hammurabi's punishments, we know, were not closely adhered to. Listed punishments were largely symbolic to convey importance, and while they could be strictly carried out, they rarely were. Judges had a ton of discretion to read into individual circumstances and exercise leniency.
Second, this stoning was unusual. It was a democratic form of execution. You weren't killed by an executioner; you were killed by "the people" taking your blood upon themselves, which prompted Jesus to ask if the crowd was prepared to do that. Where was the man she had been caught with? Why wasn't he being executed, too? The whole situation was sus. You could also say Jesus was demonstrating his authority as a judge---the Judge.
He told her "Go, and sin no more", not "Adultery is blessed".
Jesus said to the adulterer, “Go forth, *and sin no more*.” Forgot that part?
Read the discussion below. Apparently, the Greek word used in the New Testament for the term "men who practice homosexuality", may not refer to the *general* practice of homosexual sex, but instead may refer to the *specific* ancient Greek practice of pederasty with young boys. So it may be the case that Paul wasn't condemning homosexuality generally, only this specific practice.
That is one phrase. That doesn't undo the others or the general prohibition in Judaism against homosexuality.
If he had meant pedarasty, he would have just said pedarasty (paiderastia), using erastes and eromenos instead of arsenokoites and malakos.
Paul is considered an apostle and his letters and words have the same force as the four Gospels
No, they don't, not even according to Paul.
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? - 1 Corinthians 1:13.
If you're going to take Paul as gospel, which is a sectarian choice on your part that is inconsistent with Paul's own writings, women are clearly not allowed to speak in church, either, and should always wear head coverings in public.
Luckily Paul specifically tells us that he did not come to bring us Laws.
And you're also ignoring the context of Corinthians, which is an epistle to Greeks who were former Aphrodite worshippers, and thus has a stronger-than-usual emphasis on sexual practices disapproved of by the Israelites.
And Paul is pretty clear about condemning all kinds of extra-marital sexual activity, homosexual or not.
The Bible certainly provides ammunition for condemning at least certain homosexual acts, but claiming that one can't even be a true Christian without condemning homosexuals as a unique evil is not at all well supported by the text.
Paul didn't actually write the letter to Timothy - it was certainly written long after Paul's death, as it addresses 2nd century christian theological disputes.
And you might want to read what Paul has to say about marriage itself in 1 Corinthians. He's not exactly calling it the best choice. (He'd encourage abstinence for *everyone*).
Mention Sodom and Gomorrah, and watch them ignore the second recounting of that event in the Old Testament. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do with homosexuality. Nada.
Ezekiel 16:49–50
This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.
https://bible.oremus.org/?ql=527222661
The first mention of the S & G story is also unrelated to homosexuality. The men of Sodom wanted to kill the 2 visiting angels bc they were aliens who wanted to judge them. They did not wish to have sex with them, which is why Ezekiel focuses on the pride of Sodom
Genesis 19:4-11
But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them.” Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” But they replied, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near the door to break it down. But the men inside reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they were unable to find the door.
https://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Genesis%2019:13&version=nrsv
It is no wonder our churches are largely empty for the pride and unwelcoming spirit of its leaders
Churches would not exist if it were not for the dedication of two groups who have historically been marginalized by church leaders: women and homosexuals
Are you sure you're responding to the right person?
He never talked about you.
I disagree. A reasoned interpretation of scripture in its full context produces a different answer than the one you offer. I outline this here:https://believeandobey.net/we-25e2-2580-2599re-all-gay-now/
Peace
Your case is nonsense. The full context of the Bible is a Jewish sect in 1st Century Palestine. No Jewish sect anywhere at any time ever thought homosexuality was okay. If you are going to claim Christianity was different, there needs to be some very compelling and direct evidence of that being so. There is no direct evidence and in fact all of the available evidence says it rejected homosexuality just like Judaism did and does.
First, your repeated use of the word “homosexual” in bible verses indicates a poor translation. The notion of a same sex orientation was not developed until the late 19th./early 20th. century. It is not a word that biblical authors would be familiar with.
Second, while those in 1st. century Palestine might have been aghast at same sex relationships, that is not what Paul is getting at. He is discussing power relationships, pederasty and other forms of violent non-loving human contact. All this occurs in a lengthy ripping of Greco Roman culture and ethics.
Your case fails because there is zero evidence that reciprocal loving relationships are what Paul is discussing, regardless of the genders involved.
Yeah, a former Pharisee wouldn't have made any sort of connections from Judaic law to Christian beliefs on the sinfulness of personal behavior in the eyes of God, particularly in contrast to such practices in the Greco-Roman world and his general distaste for Hellenization. Claiming that would be the case is just crazy talk.
And literally no Christian thinker or believer thought this until the 20th Century West. They all just didn't understand that Paul just wanted men to love each other or something.
Really, the fucking nerve of these people.
And literally no Christian thinker or believer thought this until the 20th Century West.
Yes - what Believe and Obey is trying to explain to you is that the concept of "a homosexual" didn't exist prior to the 20th century.
What it is ancient texts are specifically prohibiting is not at all as clear as you're pretending.
OTOH, in fairness, clearly no one prior to the 20th century contemplated the notion of two men getting married and that marriage making their sex acts "marital," and Paul is pretty clear that only marital sex acts can be "not-fornication."
The question of "how bad" Paul views fornication as seems, to me, pretty ambiguous, as he seems to me to be deeply conflicted on the question of the relationship between sin and forgiveness, and the responsibilities of communities to uphold laws whose enforcement properly belongs to God.
Also, from a modern psycho-social perspective, it's hard not to notice that Paul in particular has a sexual obsession that is not found elsewhere in the Bible, and I've always found it important to highlight one of Paul's central traits that is so commonly ignored, i.e. his deep humility. He really, really had a thing about making sure people didn't start substituting him for Jesus and taking his words as The New Law.
Key word you used is former. The gospel changed Saul into Paul and he got better. Prayerfully you can as well. Peace.
"He got better," meaning, he still condemned homosexuality as a sin?
After all, Peter's vision was about dietary restrictions, not buttfucking.
. The notion of a same sex orientation was not developed until the late 19th./early 20th. century.
that is just untrue. Homosexuality has been around forever. The notion that you somehow just desired one sex may date the the 17th Century but homosexuality and the idea that it was a sin or unacceptable has always been around. Nearly every society in history has had a social or religious prohibition against it.
Second, while those in 1st. century Palestine might have been aghast at same sex relationships, that is not what Paul is getting at. He is discussing power relationships, pederasty and other forms of violent non-loving human contact.
Again, that at best explains one of the passages. The others are very clear. Moreover, Paul went to great lengths to explain how Christian law was different than Jewish law. If Paul though homosexuality was okay as long as it was "loving" he would have said so. And it would have been a very bid deal. He never did. No one did. No one ever tried to claim Christianity was okay with gays until the 20th Century. Either everyone from Paul onward was wrong about that or people like you are trying to force a rule that isn't there. I am going with the latter.
Your case fails because there is zero evidence that reciprocal loving relationships are what Paul is discussing, regardless of the genders involved.
I don't have to make the case. You do. There is no evidence Paul thought that loving relationships were okay between the same sex. The only thing you have is a claim that he only condemned pederasty. First, he condemned homosexuality in general in other passages. Second, even if he only condemned pederasty, that isn't proof of anything and certainly not proof that he was rejecting the Jewish law against it. You literally have zero direct evidence that he meant that. You just claim that because it is logically possible he could have meant it, he must have. That is pure bullshit.
Give it up. Homosexuality is a sin. If you don't like it, take it up with God or don't be a Christian. But spare me your bulslhit.
I didn’t say homosexuality hasn’t been around. I said that the notion of an imbedded orientation has not been around since antiquity, and good scholarly translations of scripture do not use the word. Yes, it has been socially unacceptable for a long time in many cultures. This does not mean that unacceptability is consistent with the Gospel. There are quite a few things that we understand about what God is telling us that we have not figured out until recently-so what. Slavery comes immediately to mind, or are you going to make a “biblical” case for that as well.
Sorry, I do not have the burden of proof reversed. You bear the burden of proving that the text specifically condemns ,mutually loving, reciprocal relationships based on nothing more than sexual orientation. Everything in scripture points to a Jesus looking for ways to include people in the circle of fellowship-that is His hallmark, and one clear differentiator. Only fundamentalists contort texts to find ways to exclude, and there is neither any grace nor good news in that stance. Peace be with you though.
I didn’t say homosexuality hasn’t been around. I said that the notion of an imbedded orientation has not been around since antiquity, and good scholarly translations of scripture do not use the word.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. So what? That says nothing about what Jesus or Christianity thinks of homosexual sex.
Slavery comes immediately to mind, or are you going to make a “biblical” case for that as well.
Christianity was the first religion to reject slavery and its rejection of it dates to Saint Patrick in the 4th Century AD. Slavery comes to mind because you are a ignorant and stupid. There is nothing new about Christianity rejecting slavery you fucking moron.
his does not mean that unacceptability is consistent with the Gospel.
The direct prohibitions against it found in Paul certainly mean that. And the thousands of year tradition of rejection of it in Judaism is pretty good evidence as well.
Sorry, I do not have the burden of proof reversed. You bear the burden of proving that the text specifically condemns ,mutually loving, reciprocal relationships based on nothing more than sexual orientation.
Which I met by showing you multiple places where it the Bible says so in so many words and by pointing out that allowing it would have been a break from Judaism. If Paul or Jesus wanted to change the law to embrace homosexuality, they would have said so. You don't get to assume they did without any evidence.
Homosexuality is a sin and a perversion.
Final post as you sadly cannot have an adult conversation without resorting to ad hominem attacks, which does nothing but send people the message that this is how a Christian should act-it’s not.
You are correct about Patrick and slavery. That did not stop people for more than a millennia from making an erroneous biblical case for slavery (see the Southern Baptists and Southern Methodists).
I dealt with the supposed condemnations of same sex relationships in Paul in my linked post. It’s ok to ignore them, but they are there unrefuted by you (likely because of your focus on name calling). I also delt with the Old Testament “proof texts” used by fundamentalists to condemn faithful brothers and sisters simply because they love differently than you-also ok to ignore if you choose.
In the end fundamentalism only saddens me because it cuts off people from the truly good news of the radically new thing God is doing through His Son Jesus the Christ. That sadness does not, however create despair, as I believe that the Gospel will win out in the end. Go peacefully on your way with the knowledge that the Good News as I have outlined it will carry the day, and there is nothing you can do to stop God’s work.
smug,self righteous and pious ... thats what you come across as...
you dont have to argue the point or try to justify yourself, btw.....
just noticing the trait.
Just as your opponent appears to get angrier and more frustrated with your pious sophistry.
I would never argue with someone who has not made an argument. Peace.
allowing it would have been a break from Judaism
A lot of things about Jesus' teachings broke with Judaism - that's why they had him killed.
A lot of things about Jesus' teachings broke with Judaism - that's why they had him killed.
He got killed because he was undermining the authority of the Pharisees and Saducees, not becuase he was breaking Judaic law. They even tried to trap him with this about doing good works on the Sabbath and he pointed out that it didn't do any such thing. And, as I quote above:
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
He got killed because he was undermining the authority of the Pharisees and Saducees, not becuase he was breaking Judaic law.
The specific charge was blasphemy, which he did commit.
I think a historically-informed perspective recognizes the threat that he posed to the Pharisees in that one thing that seems pretty clear is that he was telling people they didn't need to go to Temple and they didn't need to abide by the rulings of the Pharisees.
And elsewhere in multiple places both Jesus and Paul directly contradict Matthew 5:17 unless you either give it the Pauline interpretation that the Law itself emanates from the New Covenant, which is what makes it unnecessary (the Letter killeth), or you regard (as many scholars do, even Catholic ones) Matthew 5:17 as an interpolation, as it has no parallel in Mark. Institutions were already forming in Matthew's day, and seem to have already been sanitizing Jesus' more 'problematic' stances. Comparing things Jesus says in Mark with the same quotations from Matthew can be interesting, as you'll find Matthew pretty often has extra things Jesus said that other gospels seem to be unaware of.
Paul didn't particularly think any sexuality was 'good'.
The full context of the Bible is a Jewish sect in 1st Century Palestine.
By "Bible" I assume you mean Christianity, as the Bible wasn't assembled until the fourth century AD, while the newest of the Old Testament books dates to the fourth century BC.
And no - Christianity is a Greek religion that was inspired by Judaic religion. The argument that the people of the time didn't use that word the same way you do is a pretty strong one, actually.
Ya, umm, about that New Testament ASSertion of yours:
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way . . ." - Matthew 19:12.
As religiosity declines—and especially religiosity which entails beliefs and practices that put adherents significantly at odds with the American mainstream—religious liberty will most likely be of personal interest to an ever-smaller portion of Americans.
Religiosity as we normally think of it is in decline... dramatic decline, actually. But religiosity in the broad sense is stronger than ever, and as I've said before, as an atheist, I'm beginning to miss the Old Gods, because the new ones terrify the shit out of me.
I think the death of religion in this country is grossly overstated. The mainline Protestant Churches are dying because they sold out and no longer offer answers. They just offer leftwing politics, which you can get anywhere. Religions that didn't do that are doing just fine.
Yeah, the people who left traditional religion haven't become less religious. They have just found new and really destructive religions like global warming and wokeism.
Don't sell the old Gods short. They have been around for a long time for a reason. Humanity always comes back to them eventually.
The Presbyterian churches move even further leftwards was a big driver of my wife and I leaving.
Heh. I've seen that. I've had a couple of housemates who were both old friends. One was raised Catholic, even went to seminary, but couldn't get along there and became Protestant. He also picked up a great deal of New Age belief and was homosexual but ashamed of it. He found a tiny evangelic Protestant church (4 congregations worldwide, basically defined by their individual pastors) that was extremely to his liking. The congregation was of mixed ages and ethnicities. Covid-19 went thru them severely and killed him.
The other housemate is my current one. He's tokenly neopagan but otherwise not very New Age-y, and he's been going to a Unitarian Universalist church. They're all old people like him, and not even meeting over the summer.
Both churches are in areas that are turning Hispanic, but the UUs don't have any such representation. Partly, though, that's because their town is later turning so than where the other church is.
The issue with attendance are churches trying to change with society which leads to a death in attendance.
Yes, we see that in the demise of many "megachurches". The ones who have tried the hardest to be hip and contemporary are hardest hit by decline.
Diane you're exactly right. Climate change is a religion -- the very technical science of it is not, but all extrapolation and "what should we do about this" and grandiose beliefs about an apocalyptic future are ALL religion.
Gender beliefs are almost entirely religion. "You are a woman if you think you are" is psychologically no different than "you are "saved" if you believe in this imaginary being and pledge fealty to Him." There's no there there.
Much of racial belief is religion -- believing (without evidence) in false concepts such as police hunt down black men, or that all differences in racial outcomes are due to systemic discrimination -- are complete fantasies, which is a good sign of religion.
In short all of Wokeism is the current scary god I believe you are referring to. It comes complete with blasphemy and excommunication and eventually, dunkings and drownings and burnings.
How to Return the Church to God & Reverse Its Wokery? My Conservative Views Stopped My Ordination.
Very interesting talk by a black man (Calvin Robinson) who was denied Ordination by the Church of England because his existence within the church would be "racist". Not kidding.
In it, he discusses the doctrines of The Church, and how they're separate from the Sate. He does not advocate for legislative intervention into things like Gay Marriage, but he calls out church doctrine as something entirely separate.
FYI, like many Brits, he points out that things like Critical Race Theory and 'anti-racist' rhetoric was entirely imported from America.
A large (and overwhelmingly traditional) African contingent in the denomination....parts of the church where I am concerned that traditional Christian orthodox thought is beginning to resemble white Christian nationalism.
So, the Methodists are being taken over by African white nationalists? Or maybe the alternative is that the author is just a bit to credulous of the opinions of the more liberal-leaning elements of the church?
I would love to ask the author exactly what is "White Christian Nationalism". I bet he doesn't have an answer beyond "Christians I don't like and who won't accept gays and trannys". What a stupid term. And God what a stupid statement you quote.
You would think the fact that these views are held by African immigrants would cause the author to think that maybe the views are something other than "white nationalism". But nope, they must be African white nationalists. Maybe Elon Musk is secretly destroying the Methodist church or something.
I bet he doesn't have an answer beyond "Christians I don't like and who won't accept gays and trannys".
I bet he does. I bet it's "a.k.a. Western Civilization". I bet he won't say it out loud because dark-skinned folk getting affluent adopting Western culture practices means he personally cannot be their white savior.
And dark skinned people bringing their cultural views into this country and changing it. We can't have that. Respectable progressive white people make the rules here.
There is more than a touch of xenophobia going on here. The author just can't say it. So, she makes the bizarre claim that conservative African Christians are somehow white nationalists.
Well, it's a somewhat understandable sort of cognitive dissonance. If your entire belief system rests on the notion of traditional Western civilization being nothing more than the systemic cis-white-heteropatriarchal oppression, a black man buying into traditional Western civilization isn't something that computes.
We need borders to keep out the Right Wing Latinas.
Once white leftists realize the cultural effect mass immigration is going to have on this country, racism and xenophobia will be cool again. You watch.
No, the author is referring to two distinct groups, both differently conservative. The African Methodists are literally in Africa.
You still have the odd idea that "white nationalists" and Africans are allies in the Methodist crack up.
Ding ding
He does. Something about how America was founded by white Christians with white Christian laws that support white Christians above others.
You know, a doctrine that literally nobody espouses. Outside of Leftists.
"White Christian Nationalism"
Trump voters.
An especially moronic segment of MAGA hat wearers colloquially known as "Groypers."
This is one of those latest bogeymen with deliberate flexible definitions. Christianity Today has been all about denouncing it as of late (to them it's a "serious problem.") As far as I can tell it's just like any of the other motte and bailey accusations that are hurled at political opponents.
SPOILER ALERT: There is no White Christian Nationalism in the Methodist Church. Or most churches. There are white people who are religious and also patriotic in those churches. They are not content to let the woke corporatist secular world run roughshod over them politically like they are supposed to.
Conservative Methodism strikes me as too tame and level-headed to be incubating malignant nationalists. Southern Baptists, on the other hand....
Those are different groups. The supposed White Christian Nationalists are in this country. The African Methodists are literally in Africa. (A reasonably large fraction of Methodist churches are physically in Africa).
"The African Methodists are literally in Africa."
Whoa! Good golly you're wrong. The the African Methodist Episcopal churches are Methodist (Wesleyan) and are an American church, founded in 1816 Philadelphia. AME has about 7,000 congregations with 2 - 4 million members. They do, or at least did when I attended, send missionaries to Africa among other places.
The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, with about 1.4 million members, was founded in NYC, an American city.
In 2012, the two churches above and the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, African Union Methodist Protestant Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, and Union American Methodist Episcopal Church (all American congregations) agreed to full communion with each other and the United Methodist Church.
I don't know a lot about this topic. I'm not involved with Protestant politics in any real direct way. It's interesting to see Reason articles about religion though.
It is interesting in the same way watching a cat look uncomprehendingly out of a pet carrier at an airport. Like the cat, reason wants to understand what it is seeing, but its mental limitations and biases prevent that.
Lol
Lol - but absolutely spot on.
Not me, I saw how Catholics treated molesters and said no thanks.
Wrong spot
Sadly, about every institution in our society that serves children acted the same or worse. I guarantee you more kids are molested by public school teachers than ever were molested by priests. Hell, the US Olympic committee let one of their doctors molest gymnasts for years. Honestly, I sometimes wonder if there is anyone out there in a position of authority who isn't into screwing kids.
I think that it's important to understand that most rape is about power. This explains why those who seek power often have an ancillary drive towards rape. I do think it's less widespread than people seem to think, but it's definitely there.
That and the kids who get raped are always kids who don't have parents to look out for them. Sexual predators look for victims that are alone and don't have anyone to look out for them. In all of the outrage about the pedophile priests no one dare utter "where the fuck where their parents?" I am sorry, but kids only get molested when the molester has access to them alone. And the molester almost always gets access because the parents either are not there or don't give a shit.
The other thing is that the best way to keep your kid from being molested and don't get a divorce. People almost never molest their biological children. It happens but it is rare and the people who do it a special breed of sicko beyond ordinary pedophiles. The vast majority of victims are from broken homes and the perpetrator is quite often a boyfriend of girlfriend of the custodial parent.
Yes, the most dangerous person in the world to American children is Mom's Boyfriend.
Or girlfriend.
Though, to be truthful, I have no actual data for this. So that might just be on pornhub.
Ha!
Most rape, perhaps, but the specific case of a group of men who are required to be publicly celibate results in a lot of very horny men. I know it's not PC to say, but sometimes it's just plain looking for a sexual outlet, and if you can convince your partner to not blow your cover by claiming it's some religious obligation (or whatever, not my experience), it might look pretty tempting.
The celibacy requirement actually creates an enticement for men attracted to children to become priests. The priesthood offers a lifestyle in which it is accepted as normal to have no visible sex life. This provides cover for men who have no interest in sex with adults. Men in any other lifestyle come under suspicion if they appear to be celibate.
There's also a scandal of priests having sex with male adults, but since that's not illegal *per se* (absent some other factor like coercion) the courts don't pressure the bishops so strongly on the issue. And without court pressure, why should the bishops bother?
Change my pitch up, etc.
The sexual outlet theory would make sense if they had been raping little girls and boys both. That is not what happened. The priests raped boys almost exclusively. They didn't have a celebrate horny priest problem. They had a gay priest problem.
"most rape is about power"
Yes. And sex.
And robbery is about power. And money.
Who were largely gay priests.
After all, this wouldn't be the first time the Methodist communion in America has split: The denomination's current nominal unity is actually a reunity.
"You can sing that in church!" indeed.
Part of confirmation class in the United Methodist Church (affluent NY suburb, early 70's) was a lecture on the splits and unifications in Methodist history. Perhaps I really didn't care, but it seemed like a lot of fuss about nothing at the time. And didn't help that the minister used the word "schism" for every "split", and then had to question and comment on the correct pronunciation of that word. (Every time.)
But even then, while there was a strong progressive movement in the UMC (our minister had marched with King), there was also an awareness that other congregations had very different views.
Omnia illa et ante fiebant,
omnia illa et rursus fient
(This has all happened before,
and it will all happen again)
There was nothing about the Civil Rights movement that was inconsistent with Christianity. Yeah, some people may not have liked it or not liked their minister being a part of it but they couldn't truthfully say that the minister was acting contrary to Christianity by demanding equal treatment for everyone regardless of race.
Gay marriage is different. It is contrary to the teachings of Christianity. When a minister comes out in support of it, you either have to agree to ignore the teachings that say otherwise or have a minister who doesn't follow the religion. You can't really ignore that or agree to disagree.
> Gay marriage is different. It is contrary to the teachings of Christianity.
Nope. That's still open to interpretation. It's like women being required to wear dresses. How much is Saint Paul's conservatism versus the actual teachings of Christ. I note that most American denominations (most, not all) don't mind women wearing pants, and many have women pastors, who even sometimes preach while wearing pants and then go home to eat a tref sandwich. [gasp]
Yes it's controversial, and yes a great many Christians think the Bible says no. But that doesn't mean it's settled doctrine.
It is not controversial. Paul is incredibly clear about it. You can't just write him out or say that butt fucking is the same as fashion. That is absurd.
Moreover, homosexuality was punishable by death in 1st Century Judaism. Jesus' entire ministry was preaching to the Jews about the error of their ways. So, the fact that he never talked about homosexuality doesn't mean he was okay with it. It means, he didn't have a problem with the Jewish law against it.
I am sorry but ass fucking is not okay by Christian law. If you don't like that, don't be a Christian. It is a free country. But don't rape the actual teachings of the religion to feed your own perversions.
You can't just write him out or say that butt fucking is the same as fashion.
Actually, the very same passages you're using to condemn homosexuality also have prescriptions for women's fashion and whether or not they should be allowed to speak in church, including them in the same lists of things for which people should be shunned from the community.
Paul was addressing matters of sexual modesty and vanity in a time when Greek medicine posited that hair was a reproductive organ tied to fertility. Re: speaking in church, it was likely due to churches following the synagogue practice of having women on one side and men on the other, so communication "across the aisle" to ask questions of their husbands would've been disruptive. (The word for woman is the same as the word for "wife.") Given his prescription for women to cover their heads while praying or prophesying in church, it's pretty clear that Paul didn't mean for that line to be taken as an absolute prohibition. It was a high-context literary culture.
Same-sex relations were condemned as abominable by Hebrew religion and as unnatural by Greek, especially Platonist, philosophy. Additionally, early Christian theologians understood homosexual behavior as the result of a depraved mind so lustful and undisciplined that a consuming sexual desire has overflowed onto one's own sex. The modern notion of a "homosexual orientation" didn't exist.
Yes it's controversial, and yes a great many Christians think the Bible says no. But that doesn't mean it's settled doctrine.
A little advice for you here as you engage further the above comment.
It 'isn't settled doctrine' in the same way as calling out sqrsy's & et al. 's blatant Team-D hypocrisy about how attacking only conservatives doesnt mean they are team-D... that they are actually libertarians - isn't settled. It will never be settled by admission by the obvious team-D side that can continually change definitions, move goalposts, and outright lie about things.
I just don't think it's unclear that it's that unclear. Jesus talked about the ten commandments in the new testament. So... at some point it's reasonable that he was hip to the goings-on-of-the-time when the current religious frowned upon homosexuality.
In the Methodist tradition (as we were taught), the black civil rights movement was not just not inconsistent with Christianity, but to be supported. There was a strong yankee protestant ethic of salvation through works, if it wasn't racial equality, it was any sort of service to people less well off than yourself. This was taught to us in fact as a founding principle of Methodism.
Re gay marriage, I expect that the (progressive branch of the UMC) party line would have been to sweep away the condemnation in Paul's letters with the same broom that swept away wives submitting to their husbands and slaves to their masters.
But it's not my fight any more, having parted company with the UMC (and religion in general) several decades ago.
Re gay marriage, I expect that the (progressive branch of the UMC) party line would have been to sweep away the condemnation in Paul's letters with the same broom that swept away wives submitting to their husbands and slaves to their masters.
Yes, that is what they claim. And they are just wrong. The prohibition is listed along with murder and lying. It is not some fashion or advisory thing. Judaism punished homosexuality with death. Jesus never said a word about that being a problem or said that part of the law needs to change. To say that he was okay with it but never mentioned it or evil Catholics later took it out if he did is just fantasy. The book says what it says.
To be fair, we have very little clue what Jesus actually said or did. Paul is the only person whose writing we have that's even close to contemporary (and he never met Jesus in person, and what he does say about Jesus's words is remarkably limited). (There's only 7 likely authentic letters from Paul in the epistles, plus another 1 or 2, like Hebrews, that were certainly not written by Paul, but are probably older than the gospels. The rest of the epistles are 2nd century at best).
The gospels are all written long after Jesus's death by anonymous authors, and to which were later applied attributions to people at least theoretically closely connected to Jesus. The earliest gospel, Mark, wasn't written until after 70ce, a full generation after Jesus's (presumed) death. They very well could represent traditions about Jesus ministry, but they certainly don't qualify as 'eyewitness accounts'.
In the Methodist tradition (as we were taught), the black civil rights movement was not just not inconsistent with Christianity, but to be supported.
Depended on the location and relative zealotry of the believer. There were certainly some Methodists who were fanatical abolitionists prior to the Civil War, for example. John Wesley Powell's father was one of them.
To the extent that Methodism became more vocal about supporting the civil rights movement was far more reflective of the general determination by American churches during World War II to become far more vocal about worldly issues and political matters. There's an article called "American Malvern" from Time Magazine that discusses this shift in great detail.
Or you can change the tenets of the religion. It's not like that never happens.
They can. And the people who disagree with that won't be a part of that organization anymore. You seem to be able to understand the freedom to change the tenants. Why do not understand the freedom to reject that?
Why do you think I don't understand?
In my area, every single Episcopalian church is flying the LGBT flag. The only denomination that is doing it as far as I can see. (Some unaffiliated churches do). But my aunt's Episcopalian church in another state is as solidly culture warrior conservative as they come. I wonder which is the outlier.
Around here, the United Church of Christ ("Congregationalists") generally have a rainbow flag too, but the village Lutheran church does as well. And many of them are also flying the Ukrainian bicolor at the moment.
The UCC is Obama's denomination. They make the SBC appear almost apolitical by comparison.
All that tells me is that the Episcopalians of Silicon Valley Support The Current Thing. It tells me nothing about religious doctrine or whether or not they read their bibles... let alone believe them.
See my link about the Church of England. A church that's been made fun of for its utter lack of principles.
The Anglican Church has had recently, if memory serves, an archbishop who was nearly atheist in his personal beliefs.
John Shelby Spong. A hundred years before him, it was William Montgomery Brown. At least the Episcopal Church back then had the sense and decency to depose Brown for atheism.
The Episcopals are notorious. National Review had a cover story 30 years ago (after one of the religious surveys showed a startling number of Episcopals didn’t actually believe in the divinity of Jesus or even that God exists) “Are there any Episcopalians in Foxholes”
I get touchy about impugning people's religious beliefs, but I will say that certain Episcopalian sects seem more like social clubs.
We had two Civil War era Baptist(?) churches in my town growing up, due to the split. They had both by that time become art studios. Wonder whether if in todays climate, one of those will be forced out and the building torn done to exorcise the sins of the past.
This nonsense about "white Christian nationalism" is fake news. Nationalists do exist, and they like parts of Christianity, but they aren't Christian. In fact, the opposite is true:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dITX1HYWWwQ
There is nothing at all wrong with Nationalism. Most people all over the world are Nationalists
I prefer the term Patriotism, mainly because Nationalism has an ugly connotation to it. But nationalism doesn't automatically carry ugliness with it.
There is nothing at all wrong with Nationalism.
I agree with ace on this one - Nationalism is incompatible with Christianity. Whether you think that makes it "wrong" is up to you.
I don’t see it. I didn’t get into politics until college. I’ve been an avid student of my faith since I could read a book.
I’ve identified as a nationalist since learning about the Monroe Doctrine in high school. It was based in a primitive definition of the word, but the entire Old Testament is nationalist for Israel - preserving a nation. Jesus was Jews First. Peter says those who don’t care for their own are worse than unbelievers. God creates the nations to protect his creation from themselves and Revelations continues to affirm them.
There is a lot of Christian principles that are present in nationalist ideas. Maybe not Baptist Christian, but definitely Catholic Christian. The primary thing that is different, but not really, is that foresaking this world is all that is needed to be brought into the “nation” of Christ - yet they use natalist language to communicate that - you must be born again in Christ. Nationalism doesn’t forbid outsiders from being grafted into the nation. It accepts how incredibly difficult it is to do so. You must foresake your culture and family to be brought into a new nation. Like Ruth. That’s hard.
Obviously, we've confused the concept of loving your neighbor and actually liking your culture with what people now call nationalism.
Yes, love your neighbor, pray for the good of your country, and you can like it. But, and this is of utmost importance, Christians belong to the Kingdom of God (Heaven) first. Even Christ said to Pilate during his trial that his Kingdom was not of this world, or his followers would fight.
Therefore, if you love your nation (or country, or whatever), what do you do when X comes into conflict with what Christ said? If you choose Christ's way, then you are a Christian. If you choose the nation's way, you are a Nationalist. You cannot serve 2 masters!
That does not give Christians the right to annihilate the nations through subversion of borders and national sovereignty.
Christianity doesn’t erase physical nations. It only crosses them spiritually. And Christians do wrong in thinking being a Christian means they must eliminate the nations.
To choose Christ over the nation means being willing to suffer the consequences of being opposed to your nation. You either embrace exile or persecution. You don’t try to eliminate the bonds that even God has ordained.
Considering Christians are to consider themselves a "holy nation," citizens of a universal kingdom that transcends all national and ethnic boundaries, and as "pilgrims," "sojourners," and "exiles" in the world, I would say "Christian nationalism" is a contradiction in terms.
“Nations” in the Bible didn’t refer to the modern meaning of the word.
It’s more about ethnicity.
The modern definition of nation points to the political organization of an ethnic group.
The modern meaning of the word is multiple, and not settled. Orban's desire to keep Hungary from being a "place of mixed races" unites nationalism and ethnicity. Japan unites ethnicity and nationalism. Germany for Germans....Italy for Italians. There are lots of places where ethnicity and nationality unite.
Then you have China, that has a dominant ethnicity but hundreds of other ones, which is a political nation, not an ethnic nation. Same for India.
What is the US? That is the question, and the fight.
My own denomination has been grumbling over a potential split for about forty five years now, ever since women got to be pastors. That was forty five years ago. Today my congregation has a traditional pastor who is... female. No one cares about it anymore, but talk of the split is still there. Every time there is a *political* issue the talk arises again. It's about the politics, nothing more.
It came back when divorced people were allowed to attend services. It came back when gays were allowed to attend services. It came back when ONE church in Arizona got a gay pastor. And again with gay marriage. It's back now because of Trump, even though as far as I can tell, Trump doesn't actually attend any church. Basically red county churches don't want to be associated with eebil blue county churches. No difference in doctrine that I can tell.
And once again, I don't think the split will actually happen, although some individual churches may split off and go independent.
Last time the denomination actually split was during the Civil War, just like nearly all other denominations.
p.s. Growing up all the Democrats sat in the left aisles and all the Republican sat in the right, so that's why I thought that's where "left" and "right" came from for the longest time.
One of the reasons I'm not religious (one of the reasons, not the MAIN reason, but a big one) is that if I were going to subscribe to a religion or set of religious doctrines, I would take them seriously. Yes, to the Western Secular Eye, we nod in approval as various religious sects discover emanations and penumbras in their founding texts and bibles that sort of conveniently ignore all that icky stuff that's on the Wrong Side of History.
But then... what's the point of it all? At some point, it's just some people sitting in a room together nodding at each other about supporting The Current Thing with some vague notion of God or a higher power.
Most major religious are pretty dern clear on things like homosexuality (among many things). So, because I'm find with things like homosexuality, not to even mention gay marriage... or shellfish, or non Halal meats etc, I simply can't get on board.
How disrespectfully would it be if I joined one of the religions and started scratching lines out in the X Bible (whatever version) and then proudly declaring I'm a faithful member of 'X'.
At some point, if you're going to believe something, believe it. Otherwise, it's nothing more than a social club. If you can't believe, then don't bother telling people you believe. It's insulting to both of you.
So, you reject the possibility that our understanding of God can progress and improve over time? Most Christians I know eat shellfish and haven't killed witches lately.
And forward thinking secular people (and noted theologians from The Young Turks at the HuffPo) regularly accuse Christians of being hypocrites.
So are they or aren't they?
No, it sounds like he rejects the idea of lying to himself and others.
One of the reasons I'm not religious (one of the reasons, not the MAIN reason, but a big one) is that if I were going to subscribe to a religion or set of religious doctrines, I would take them seriously.
That is where I am at as well. It just seems wrong to me to treat church like a social club. I know that is how many of the 'faithful' actually treat church, but I can't do it. I would have to invest my full faith in it. And since I can't, I don't.
Exactly. On this we agree 100%. If I join the Church it will be because:
1. I want to get closer to God.
2. The particular religion or sec has teachings and strictures that I believe will help me get closer to God.
It's not a place to network and make business connections, or get laid.
Definitely not the latter, if you were, like me, raised in an evangelical church that considered all pre-marital sex to be sinful.
I will say that since evangelical Calvinism is such an all-or-nothing worldview, it was easy for me to discard religion altogether and become an atheist when I stopped believing in all that.
I was never tempted to drift into any sort of liberal Christianity or "spiritual but religious" category.
That should be "spiritual, but not religious" category.
evangelical church that considered all pre-marital sex to be sinful.
Shoulda' done catholic. No premarital sex, in theory, but if you are good salesmen you can convince them of the strict definition of "sex"... the poophole loophole is always an option.
Apropos of nothing, I'm sure glad I'm not a young man dating a 17 year old Catholic girl anymore.
But then... what's the point of it all? At some point, it's just some people sitting in a room together nodding at each other about supporting The Current Thing with some vague notion of God or a higher power.
Most major religious are pretty dern clear on things like homosexuality (among many things). So, because I'm find with things like homosexuality, not to even mention gay marriage... or shellfish, or non Halal meats etc, I simply can't get on board.
How disrespectfully would it be if I joined one of the religions and started scratching lines out in the X Bible (whatever version) and then proudly declaring I'm a faithful member of 'X'.
Bravo. I have never understood why people have this desire to join organizations and then try and force the organization to change to suit them. If you don't like the teachings or practices of a religion or school or whatever, don't join it.
I also do not understand why people want to be religious and then pick and choose what beliefs to follow cafeteria style. It is one thing not to follow something because you are just weak and no one follows everything perfectly. That is just being human. But to go through a religion, any religion, and just unilaterally declare this or that tenant to be wrong is to defeat the whole purpose of religion. If you are just going to believe whatever you want to anyway, then just do that and don't bother looking to a book or religion for justification.
believe whatever you want to anyway
But that's what everyone does. The reason there's sects and denominations is because people gather together with those who share their prejudices, biases, and feelings and then ascribe their point of view to God.
I'm with you there. I grew up Southern Baptist but later decided there were major differences between my beliefs and the church. I'm agnostic but take my children to church because I'd rather they grow up with faith. I'm not Catholic or Christian, but the way so many churches have decided to flat out ignore tenets of the religion due to politics disgusts me. Either religion holds to timeless principles or it ceases to exist in a meaningful way
Well, it's a somewhat understandable sort of cognitive dissonance. If your entire belief system rests on the notion of traditional Western civilization being nothing more than the systemic cis-white-heteropatriarchal oppression, a black man buying into traditional Western civilization isn't something that computes.
Interesting discussion here about what the New Testament says about homosexuality.
https://www.westarinstitute.org/editorials/what-the-new-testament-says-about-homosexuality
Hint: it says very little, and the places where it is mentioned, there are conflicting translations and interpretations.
Unfortunately, the old testament does have something to say about it, and I'm no expert on Christian religions, but there seems to be a kind of dashing between the two. For instance, I don't think there are many Christians that give the middle finger to the Ten Commandments. And then all that begins to intersect with Judaism.
Here's what Rabbi Dr. Nachum Amsel says about the Torah and homosexuality:
Early Christianity had a long debate about this subject. Should Christianity follow the laws of the Old Testament and eat Kosher and all that or did Jesus in making a new covenant make all of that void. The answer was kind of a maybe. All of the dietary and culture laws were eliminated. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount basically told the Jews to stop being so legalistic and worry about the spirit of the Ten Commandments instead of minutia. Since Jesus reinterpreted the 10 Commandments but didn't give new ones or get rid of them, the commandments and the moral laws of the Old Testament are still enforce just subject to Jesus' correction of their meaning.
And as you point out, the Old Testament is clear that homosexuality is a no go. That is certainly not minutia or legalism of the Torah.
Jews to stop being so legalistic and worry about the spirit of the Ten Commandments instead of minutia.
And put lawyers out of business? No thanks!
The answer was kind of a maybe.
The question starts in Paul's letter to the Galatians and remains unanswered to this day, with some Christian sects following Old Testament law quite strictly, and some ignoring it quite cavalierly (Paul himself is not particularly consistent on the question).
The "works of the Law" in Paul's writings were markers of inclusion in the covenant, signs of exceptionalism and Jewish identity. The Judaizer controversy was about whether gentiles must first become Jews before they could embrace the Jewish messiah, not about whether Jewish ethics still applied. Paul's argument against the Judaizers was that old covenant given only to the Hebrews was preparatory for the universal new covenant. Insisting that converts to Christ first place themselves under the Law is like saying a Ph.D. student without a high school diploma can't receive her degree unless she goes back and graduates 12th grade.
Good thing for Jews worldwide that secular Israeli law doesn't copy that holy horseshit.
Wow, that article is a total lie. Let me just pick the first passage that comes to mind:
Romans 1:24-27 NIV
"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
No, that's not clear at all! The NT obviously doesn't mention homosexuality at all! It must be OK, then!
Look, at least do the slightest bit of research before you go posting things that completely agree with you.
In actuality, the scriptures treat homosexuality the same as any other (hetero)sexual sin.
So the whole "Christians hate gays" thing is a made up political tool to attack religion.
the scriptures treat homosexuality the same as any other (hetero)sexual sin
^
Christians don't hate gays, but it's my understanding that God hates fags. I saw it on a sign.
It's mostly self-hating closet Gays that hate Gays.
At least according to hackneyed Hollywood movies and TV shows.
And according to how often outspokenly anti-gay clergymen and politicians get caught tapping their foot in their "wide stance" in men's rooms or checking into hotels with teenage boys.
The more morally obsessed they are with the topic, the likelier that becomes.
Methinks the pastor doth protest too much.
All sexual sin was treated different from the rest because of its nature and frequency of mention in scripture. The church began this progressive slide when they went soft on cohabitation and adultery. Not all churches have been flippant, though, and quite a few have struggled with how to be loving without condoning… it isn’t easy and we are still human.
But there’s also the aspect that people who don’t want to repent interpret gentle correction as insult and hate. So I’m not fully on board with believing every girl who got knocked up by boyfriend was treated with judges hate in the church based on her testimony alone.
This subject and the various responses can avoid a point eternally important to us all. It’s this: How many of you know that the God who knew you before you were born, created you and is extremely interested in your life wants you to spend eternity with Him in heaven after this life? This is only possible through a relationship with His Son, Jesus Christ, who came into the world to pay the penalty for mankind’s sinful ways.
How does one enter into this relationship?
1. Understand that we’re all born into sin- the willful disobedience to God-through mankind’s own choosing, and this creates a gap between us and God. (Romans 3:23).
2. Realize we can’t bridge that gap by our own efforts, achievements or self esteem. (Ephesians 2:8-9).
3. So God activated His plan of salvation-He sent His son, Jesus, to take the punishment we all deserve for our sins. ( John 3:16, Romans 5:8, 2 Corinthians 5:21).
4. Know that salvation is a gift for all that can’t be earned. (Romans 6:23, John 1:12).
5. Guess what! God is pleased to make this offer. (Ephesians 2:5).
6. Our part is to consider the above, hear Jesus knocking on the doors of our hearts and be saved.(Romans 10:9).
Here’s a sample prayer to invite Jesus into your life: “ Dear Jesus, I confess I’m a sinner and I ask your forgiveness. I believe you died on the cross for my sins and rose from the dead three days later. Please come into my heart and my life. I want to follow you from this day forward. Amen.”
If you prayed this- out loud or silently- and meant it, Jesus Christ has taken residence in your heart, you now have a personal relationship with him and are saved. This isn’t some membership card but a living walk with our Savior.
Thanks for reading.
Take your altar call somewhere else. We've all heard it before.
But it's not a bad precis of most Christianity.
A thoughtful reply:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/149181806386290260/
The "Sinner's Prayer" and "asking Jesus to come into your heart" aren't at all biblical. Pretty ironic. The more a church claims to be "Bible-based," the less likely they are to know anything about historic Christian practice.
Reading the part of the article where the editor and whomever they were quoting got caught up in the weeds over the precise limits of Christian Nationalist belief and the ramblings of MTG I was suddenly reminded about a quote from a German Army field manual in the Second World War. "It is useless to study American field manuals in an effort to know hoe to fight them, because no American officer has ever read them." Much of politics in America is like the situation with American Army officers in 1944. Everybody is out here doing, but no one really cares about the theory. It is entirely likely that whichever nobody Reason is quoting this week knows much more about the intellectual roots of Christian Nationalism than Ms. Green, precisely because they've studied the relevant material which she has never bothered to read.
This is likely one reason why she is remembered and the sources for Reason Magazine's drivel are not.
There was a decision to split into two separate churches. Next there was a long delay effectively giving one faction to maintain their positions at the expense of the other. It no wonder that the aggrieved faction to move ahead two years after the fact when the are morally opposed to the decisions of the other faction.
There are three ways to resolve a conflict. Dialog and compromise, agreeing to separate (agreeing to disagree while remaining separate), and violence.
While dialog is preferable, both sides need to do so with a willingness to meet halfway. In this situation you have two entrenched camps where one faction wants to force the other side to accept something that the other side feels is morally wrong.
Separation appears to be the logical approach. The delays threaten the third option of resolving a conflict. While many in the woke crowd seem to relish confrontation, it is not desirable.
Social norms evolve over the passage of time. Forcing your opposition to capitulate does not sway minds. It simple forces the opposition underground and eventually will result in an equal and opposite reaction. Some call it Karma and the Woke Crowd is due to have loads of Karma striking them back.
The alternative is to persuade the opposition to your position. It takes time which the Woke Crowd has little of. Lasting change occurs when there is a consensus and once again it takes time.
Maybe now, as then, churches are the canary in the coal mine, warning us of catastrophe we could still avert.
Yeah, it's a canary in the coal mine all right...reminding us to embrace Reason and Science, get mecha-electronic robots to do the coal-mining, use more natural gas, build more nuclear plants, start working on Dyson Spheres, and give up superstitions and Grim Fairy Tales!
If religion is a valid guide to living, why are there so many of them, none of whom agree, and so many denominations within religions, none of whom agree, including 30,000--er--30,001 within Christianity?
Great. As if politics isn't bad enough. We've gotta talk about religion.
Halloween is just around the corner. Pray they don't mention the Great Pumpkin.
PAGANS arguing about their LAWLESSNESS. Question: WHERE in the Word or what Yeshua/Jesus taught does it tell us the Law was ever going change? I read, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [a]jot or one [b]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" since Heaven and Earth HAVE NOT PASSED AWAY YET guess that means ANY CHANGES MADE TO THE LAW WAS MAN-MADE DOCTRINE.
Also, WHERE in SCRIPTURES are we told the Messiah would start a "new religion"? For I read again, "Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?" so if the DOCTRINE Yeshua/Jesus in the Latin vernacular was TEACHING AND LIVING the Father's DOCTRINE which, for those of you who like to IGNORE TRUTH, is TORAH any changes or "modifications" to His Law and His Celebrations were the ideas of MEN and not Yahweh.
So let the little pagan idiots keep trolling on in their idolatry and fornication with the world because on that last day? They are all going to hear this: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
They have been as well as those reading this have been warned. In Love, Be Blessed. Shalom
He was supposed to have come back within the lifetime of the Disciples too. Oh well...
It says nothing about political polarization in the US. Every major denomination is split into a more conservative and a more socially liberal wing. In fact, the same is true for most religions around the world.
Seems there is a substantial amount of disagreement amongst Christians about what the Bible actually says about same-sex relationships. Perhaps most tellingly, it seems that the word "homosexual" did not appear even in English translations (e.g. the RSV) before 1946. Other-language translations, German for example, did not include the word until 1983, when the American company Biblica paid for and very likely influenced the German translation of its property, the NIV. Turns out that the best modern translations of the Greek word "arsenokoitai" have it meaning "boy molester" or "boy abuser"; we call such persons pederasts, not homosexuals. In all discussions of single specific Bible verses translation and context mean everything. Early Judeo-Christian communities were probably very concerned about the prevalence of sexual abuse of boys in the Hellenistic world, and we would say rightly so. What should appear to us as a profound injustice, however, is the likelihood that in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 the apostle Paul warns that the boys--the victims of sexual abuse--will be sent to hell. We call this scapegoating or blaming the victim and regard it as immoral. The Bible, course is replete with contradictions and conundrums. My personal favorite concerns the disembarkation of Noah et al. from the Ark, after which time Noah happened to get plastered and lay naked in his tent. His second son, Ham, observed his father's nakedness and told his brothers, Shem and Japheth, about it. These two discretely covered up the old man without actually looking at him. Second son Ham may or may not have committed some unspecified abomination and would have deserved his father's wrath and punishment if he did. In any case it was not Ham but rather his son Canaan and his offspring whom Noah chose to curse into slavery down through all the generations. Perhaps Noah was still hammered and mistook Canaan for his father when pointing the finger of blame. Whatever. Interestingly, our Constitution prevents this kind of thing by forbidding "attainder of treason" and "corruption of blood." My second favorite example of this is, of course, the Fall of Mankind into Original Sin because of Adam and Eve's peccadillo in the Garden; many billions of humans made to suffer because of the misbehavior of just two. I'll take our Constitution's Fathers ideas of justice over the Heavenly Father's ideas any day.
You fundamentally misunderstand what the Bible says. For example, the story of the Fall is about the logical consequence of eating from the tree of knowledge, not due arbitrary punishment; committing sins inevitably means hell as a natural consequence. The Bible is merely telling you how this universe works, rather than laying down arbitrary laws.
And yes, the victims of sexual abuse often end up living in hell, not because God is punishing them but because that is a common consequence of such abuse. And the Bible also gives people tools for dealing with such trauma and overcoming it.
Christianity really isn’t all that different in its core teachings from other religions. Christianity is burdened by multiple translations and millennia of editing and myth making, and it is understandable that the resulting mess doesn’t speak much to 21st century intellectuals.
On the other hand, in practice, Christianity has been remarkably effective of actually appalling to real people and influencing them to become better people and deal with adversity.
Oh yeah! God forbid anybody should pursue knowledge! 🙂
Especially knowledge of good and evil! Boy this Christianity really is a great guide to morality! /Sarc
Oh, E, you're so learned and witty.
"Christianity really isn’t all that different in its core teachings from other religions. "
I think the biggest difference is the emphasis on love. The early compilers of the bible used the centrality of love to decide what to include and what to exclude, like the apocrypha. Neither of Christianity's two closest relatives, Islam and Judaism, emphasize loving one's neighbor in the same way, I believe.
H.L. Mencken aptly described the Methodist White Terror, and recognized it as the leading initiator or deadly force during the 14 years in which National Prohibition destroyed the national economy and did a lot of damage to European economies to boot. I'll miss them like I miss burning at the stake and stonings in public squares.
Methodists have always been big into social work. They were heavily involved in the temperance movement because of the cultural impact of alcoholism, especially on women and children suffering impoverishment and domestic violence. They weren't trying to stamp out fun (cf. Baptists) or ruin anybody's political economy.