If Ukraine Wants To Stand for Liberty and Democracy, It Should Rethink Some of Its Wartime Policies
We can condemn the actions of Moscow without forfeiting the right to point out missteps in Kyiv.
On March 26, during a speech in Warsaw, Poland, President Joe Biden defined the stakes of the war that had enveloped Ukraine during the previous month: "In the perennial struggle for democracy and freedom," he said, "Ukraine and its people are on the frontlines fighting to save their nation. And their brave resistance is part of a larger fight for essential democratic principles that unite all free people: the rule of law; free and fair elections; the freedom to speak, to write, and to assemble; the freedom to worship as one chooses; freedom of the press."
The remarks were in keeping with a widely accepted notion that the conflict constitutes "a battle," as Biden put it, "between democracy and autocracy, between liberty and repression."
There can be no question that the actions of Russia under Vladimir Putin put the country on the side of autocracy and repression. But the West should be clear-eyed about the ways that Ukraine is, and isn't, living up to its end of the democracy-and-liberty formulation.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been hailed as a classical liberal hero, the inspirational leader who captured the world's attention with a series of video messages immediately following the Russian invasion in which he celebrated those who had taken up arms to repel the attack and pleaded with foreign governments to lend a hand. But Zelenskyy has not merely urged his fellow countrymen to follow his lead. With the declaration of martial law in February came a prohibition on male citizens aged 18–60 leaving the country. Then in March, the government combined the country's national TV stations into a single state-approved broadcast and suspended 11 opposition political parties it described as "pro-Russian."
With Ukraine scrambling to defend itself against Putin's lawlessness, the impulse to shut down anyone with Russian sympathies is understandable. But to act on that impulse is to inflict punishment on Ukrainian citizens, including those who voted for the Opposition Platform for Life, which held about 10 percent of seats in Ukraine's parliament and was the main party challenging Zelenskyy before he disbanded its activities. Ukraine has a large Russian-speaking population, and those who have generally favored maintaining close ties with Russia rather than pursuing greater integration with the European Union have a right to their views, and to representation in government, even at a time of war.
Meanwhile, all Ukrainians have a right to share and access information. There was a disconcerting irony in Biden identifying the country as a combatant on the side of free speech and freedom of the press at the same time its president was clamping down on television stations' ability to present the news to their viewers as they think appropriate. At least one outlet with ties to a Zelenskyy rival has been excluded from broadcasting on the new national channel, reported NPR this month. Zelenskyy's office defended the consolidation, reported Reuters at the time, by "citing the importance of a 'unified information policy,'" a phrase that should be chilling to anyone who values free expression.
That used to be most of us. When Putin in March signed a law making it a crime to disseminate "deliberately misleading information" or to discredit Russian military operations, the U.N.'s High Commissioner on Human Rights was aghast. A statement released by that office said the Russian law "depriv[ed] the population of their right to access diverse news and views at this critical time." Russia under Putin does indeed have a lamentable history of censorship, state-backed disinformation campaigns, and persecution of dissidents. But if the Russian people have a right to a diversity of perspectives, surely the Ukrainian people do too.
Even before the invasion, there was evidence that Zelenskyy's government was less than committed to protecting that right. In early February, he removed three TV stations, again described by the government as "pro-Russian," from the airwaves. In January, he decreed that print media outlets registered in Ukraine publish in Ukrainian. That move—a follow-up to a 2019 law, signed by Zelenskyy's predecessor, mandating that Ukrainian be spoken in schools—arguably aided Putin, who has justified his aggression in part by claiming that Ukrainians "who identify as Russians and want to preserve their identity, language and culture are getting the signal that they are not wanted in Ukraine."
Any defense of these policies would presumably rest on the distinction between Putin's control of the Russian media for the purposes of spreading false narratives to mislead the public, both in Russia and in Russian-speaking Ukraine, and Zelenskyy's control of it to set the record straight and protect the Ukrainian public from Russia's propaganda. Putin is a bad guy, in other words, trying to manipulate people, while Zelenskyy is a good guy trying to inform them.
We should be exceedingly careful about accepting such premises. Not because the Russians aren't spreading disinformation. Not even because there's no danger that Ukrainian consumers of Russian propaganda might fall victim to it.
By trying to ensure that the people of Ukraine are exposed to one narrative over another, Zelenskyy is himself engaging in a propaganda campaign. Governments have an obligation, particularly during a crisis, to communicate with the public, and it's natural that officials would seek to bolster the case for their own side. That's propaganda even if the official narrative is entirely (or very nearly so) based in accurate information. Propaganda isn't necessarily nefarious.
But when a government interferes with the people's ability to hear the other side, it ventures into dangerous territory. In a free society, the state should not be trusted to determine what is true or false, or to forcibly deny people access to speech it deems to be contrary to their interests. Even a head of state who really is a "good guy" risks being corrupted by that much power. The same is true of the authority to suspend opposition political parties. (In Ukraine, that move has already led to allegations, as NPR put it, "that Zelenskyy is clearing out political rivals before the 2024 presidential election.")
Nor are attempts to suppress foreign propaganda likely to help the practical situation. In the era of modern technology, supposedly forbidden content is never truly inaccessible. In fact, censorship attempts often have the perverse effect of making the censors look like they have something to hide and drawing more attention to the targeted ideas, a phenomenon common enough to have earned a nickname: the Streisand effect.
Zelenskyy would do better to use his platform to debunk the falsehoods spread by Russia than to try to shut them down. Transparency and forbearance on the part of his government would undermine Putin by highlighting for the world the contrast between the two countries' approaches.
Like the censorship attempts, the restrictions on male citizens' right to leave Ukraine is a human rights violation that may in fact do more harm than good. "It is one thing to conscript men into military service, providing training and appropriate equipment (although, even in that case, a right to conscientious objection must be respected)," law professor Amy Maguire wrote for The Conversation. "It is another thing entirely to prevent civilians from escaping a war zone … The ban on men leaving Ukraine ought to be lifted, because it is legally and ethically wrong to force civilians to stay in harm's way when they have the opportunity and desire to escape."
Recall that one pretense undergirding Putin's invasion was that many Ukrainians viewed the government in Kyiv as illegitimate and would be glad to be absorbed into Russia's sphere of influence. When invading troops were not greeted as liberators—when instead the armed forces and civilian population of the country fought back with far more zeal and effectiveness than anyone was expecting—it made a mockery of the Putin line.
In the earliest days of the war, social media channels were replete with stories like one about a young couple who were "married on the first day of the Russian invasion, and then immediately took up arms" in defense of Kyiv. Ukraine has benefited from the international goodwill that followed from such acts of bravery. Sadly, the policy of holding "fighting-age" men captive erodes the moral high ground from which Ukrainians are struggling to defend their country.
We in the United States have a lesson from our not-so-distant past to draw on when offering this "fraternal correction," as Catholics might call it. We know that during times of war, even relatively free countries can succumb to the temptation to violate rights, particularly of those with ethnic ties to the adversary, in ways they will come to be deeply ashamed of. It happened here within living memory. Today we recognize the relocation of Japanese Americans during World War II as "one of the most atrocious violations of American civil rights in the 20th century."
When Congress later acknowledged that the U.S. government was in the wrong and issued reparations to survivors of the internment camps, no one imagined it was excusing the attack on Pearl Harbor. Likewise, to critique the Zelenskyy government does not lessen the seriousness of the charges against Putin. Russia's unprovoked military aggression, violation of a neighbor's territorial integrity, alleged war crimes, and continual refusal to respect the rights of its own citizens, including by jailing those who dare to speak out against the war, are far worse than anything Zelenskyy has been accused of.
It's possible to condemn the actions of Moscow without forfeiting the right to point out missteps in Kyiv. If we really care about the future of democracy and liberty, we should be willing to do both.
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Funny how I don't see any articles whining about the Russians.
Are we pissing billions away on the Russians too?
Yeah we kinda are. Half of Congress wants regime change, but they are moral cowards who can't just state it.
Jews and Nazis working together again just like always.
Not good propaganda.
Asshole Nazi posting here; go back to your camp.
Funded by the US.
Actually, Jews including the Simon Weizenthal Center had complained Ukrainians were growing anti semites because they were putting up monuments to the dead who fought with the Ukrainian Galicia SS First Division during world war 2. This division however was not the one who committed the majority of atrocities, it was the Bandera group, the self proclaimed OUN militia who committed most of them, including killing many Polish civilians. So it was rather strange to see Ukrainian Jews get in bed with the ultra right Ukrainian factions who today are described as neo NAZIs, to stage a coup on the Maidan of a democratically elected government. And who engineered and funded the coup? Victoria Nuland of the US State Department, a Zionist who by her stupidity has single handedly destroyed Ukraine by fomenting a 10 year civil war. The other Zionists flunky apparatchiks in the US, Antony Blinken and Jake Sullivan are prolonging the unnecessary slaughter of young Ukrainians and Russians, while destroying US and European economies. Their combined stupidity is costing the lives of many thousands. The same type of idiots ran the Soviet Regime in the USSR, killing millions of Russian and Ukrainian Christians who refused to go along with the idiotic social experiment of state collectivization created by the bolsheviks.
Nuland was working for Biden at the time.
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Nudelman/Nuland was in the Obomber admin.
NATO was also involved.
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A little more history.
“When President Wilson asked Congress to declare war against Germany, President Wilson was in effect and in fact conspiring to pay the debt he obligated himself to pay to the Zionists. Congress only declared war against Germany because President Wilson informed Congress that a German submarine had sunk the S.S. Sussex in the English Channel in violation of international law and that United States citizens aboard the S.S. Sussex had perished with the ship. After General Pershing's troops were fighting in Europe, the hoax was exposed. The alleged sinking of the S.S. Sussex was used as the "pretext" to justify a declaration of war against Germany by the United States. The S.S. Sussex had not been sunk and no United States citizens had lost their lives. The United States was now at war in Europe as Great Britain's ally. That is what Great Britain and the Talmudists ("Jews") of the world conspired to achieve in their crooked diplomatic underworld.”
The SS Sussex was a French ship sunk accidentally by a German U-Boat. Two Americans died.
No gave a damn about the Sussex, it was the Lusitania that caused the ruckus. It was sunk in 1915 but was brought back to the news by Wilson's favorite publisher, Hearst who claimed it was a passenger liner when in fact, it was a munitions ship that carried passengers as human shields. After campaigning on the platform "He kept us out of war" Wilson reversed himself immediately upon his re-inauguration and got the war he had so fervently wanted in his mad pursuit of world government.
Hahaha.
“During this time period in America, President Woodrow Wilson was campaigning for his re-election in 1916 on his popular campaign slogan, “He Kept Us out of War.” But on April 2, 1917, President Wilson addressed both houses of Congress and pleaded with them to declare war against Germany. What made Wilson change his mind?
SHORTLY BEFORE PRESIDENT WILSON’S RE-ELECTION, he received a Jewish visitor in the White House by the name of Samuel Untermeyer.
The Jew Untermeyer was a prominent New York City attorney of the Law Firm, Guggenheim, Untermeyer, & Marshall.
The Firm had as one of its main clients, Kuhn Loeb Bank, of which Jacob Schiff, an agent of Walter Rothschild, was the head. Both Untermeyer and Schiff contributed generously to the National Democratic Committee that installed President Wilson in the White House in both of his elections.
Untermeyer informed President Wilson that he had been retained to bring a Breach of Promise action against President Wilson. Untermeyer’s client was the former wife of a professor at Princeton University at the same time that Wilson was a professor at Princeton University. Untermeyer informed Wilson that his client was willing to accept $40,000 in lieu of commencing the Breach of Promise action.
Untermeyer produced a packet of letters from his pocket written by President Wilson to his colleague’s wife when they were neighbors at Princeton University. These letters established the fact that an illicit relationship had existed between Wilson and the wife of his Princeton colleague. Wilson immediately acknowledged his authorship of the letters. Untermeyer then informed Wilson that his former sweetheart was in dire need of $40,000.
President Wilson informed Untermeyer that he did not have the $40,000 to pay his blackmailer. Untermeyer then volunteered to give Wilson’s former sweetheart the $40,000 out of his own pocket – but on one condition: that President Wilson promise to appoint to the first vacancy on the United States Supreme Court, the Zionist and Talmudic Jew, Louis Dembitz Brandeis.
Without further talk, President Wilson accepted Mr. Untermeyer’s generous offer. Then on June 5 1916, nearly one year before Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany, Wilson appointed the Zionist Jew, Louis Brandeis, to the Supreme Court.“
“Mad pursuit of world government”
So appointing Louis Brandeis to the Supreme Court was a crucial part of his mad plans. Ahhh.
The quantity of ammunition loaded secretly on the Lusitania in New York City made it a legal combatant which would have clearly excluded it’s sinking as a reason for war.
Wilson knew this. Do you think the innocent civilian passengers did?
From wiki
“The Sussex Pledge was a promise made by Germany to the United States in 1916, during World War I before the latter entered World War I. Early in 1915, Germany had instituted a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare,[1] allowing armed merchant ships but not passenger ships to be torpedoed without warning.
Despite that avowed restriction, a French cross-channel passenger ferry, the Sussex, was torpedoed without warning on March 24, 1916. The ship was severely damaged and about 80 people died,[2] including the famous Spanish pianist and composer Enrique Granados.
Although no US citizen was killed in this attack, it prompted US President Woodrow Wilson to declare that if Germany continued the practice, the United States would break diplomatic relations with Germany.“
So he can concentrate?
You’re working with Jews now? You hate Jews.
"at least we're not working for Jews."
Actually hatred in speech is caused by lying. Judaism is based on lying.
By sharing the truth that exposes the corruption of lying Jews, I’m helping them put their lives in order, that’s love.
Even though they’re too stupid to realize it. Lie on Jew, lie on.
Take your meds.
They don’t have meds for what he has.
Sure they do. It’s called cyanide.
just how stupid could they be...?
Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 900 individuals of whom at least 20% were Jews
Yasser Arafat
The Jews got him with their AIDS laser!
Oh noes, Misek! According to your Russian buddies, the Ukrainians now have The Super Soldisr Formula and Vita-Rays, just like your Arch-Enemy from World War II, Captain America! 🙂
Russia Says It’s Losing Because Ukraine Has Experimental Mutant Troops Created in Secret Biolabs
Allison Quinn
https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-says-its-losing-because-ukraine-has-experimental-mutant-troops-created-in-secret-biolabss
Captain America Intro (1966)
https://youtu.be/8ZpQ9hZi34A
Remember the song and yield, Misek and Fuck Off, Nazi!
You’ll have to beg and whine better than that.
Ackshuyally, the U.S. and The West in general has been doing it throughout history. See Werner Keller's book East Minus West Equals Zero: Russia's Debt to the Western World 862-1962.
Yeah, defending against them. Billions now or Trillions later when NATO gets involved. We should be sending 10X the armaments that we're currently sending.
Why haven't you gone over?
"Billions now or Trillions later when NATO gets involved."
Neither situation has to happen, you know.
Minding your own business is also an option.
Yeah man, pointing out Ukraine has problems means Russia is awesome!
Do the Russians have their own NAZI SS units roaming the countryside killing civilians based on the language they speak, the food they are carrying or simply because they didn't leave their homes and all belongings and are now considered "separatists" worthy of death.
Are the Russian shelling Ukrainian civilians when no Ukrainian military is around? Why would they waste the munitions? But the UAF does in Donbas and has for over 8 years.
With Ukraine scrambling to defend itself against Putin's lawlessness, the impulse to shut down anyone with Russian sympathies is understandable.
Good thing we never did anything like that during WW1 and WW2.
It’s different when we do it.
Let's be generous and say this is a "learn from our mistakes" moment.
Beat me to it. Wilson is guilty of doing much the same as the current regime in Ukraine. And the US wasn't involved in a straight-up struggle for survival like Ukraine is now.
So did Lincoln and FDR.
Yo, fuck Wilson.
I understand, what Zelensky is doing does not appear very "freedom-loving" to people who have never been in the position that Ukrainians find themselves in and likely never will. It is so easy to stick by your principles when you aren't facing life or death situations on a daily basis. Or being attacked by an enemy who has tried to wipe you out more than once over the centuries.
There is a massive difference between being a large, isolated country safe from invasion like the US which is voluntarily at war overseas and a smaller, weaker country like Ukraine being attacked by the world's 2nd largest army with the intention of destroying it, stealing its land and wiping out its language and culture.
Maybe people learn why so many people in Ukraine even speak Russian in the first place.
If Ukraine Wants To Stand for Liberty and Democracy
Sorry what?
hahahahahahahahahahahahah
Sorry buddy Putin's days are numbered, we know you like shilling for him though.
You gonna take him out, soy?
i'm not sure you've been keeping up on current events
"Everyone who disagrees with me is with Putin!"
That Makarov in Putin's pocket is burning a hole for a final trip to a bunker.
🙂
Let’s hope he doesn’t push the button first.
Ah, I see! Just like the walls are closing in on Trump, and inflation is transitory? Good god, you people are completely out of touch with reality.
Exactly! The most corrupt nation in Europe. The place where the USA performed yet another 'regime change'. A place where the Biden crime syndicate pilfers millions (if not billions) of US aid money and sends it back to themselves through the Baltics, Cyprus and the Caymans. Where "oligarchs" pay that syndicate off just like Zelenskyy gets paid off and by the same guy - Igor Kolomoisky!
You cannot make this shit up.
It's not exactly defending liberty when the government doesn't allow adult males to leave the country to avoid the war the government failed to prevent and then failed to negotiate a cease-fire for.
So as usual, the pretense for all governments is that they exist to defend their citizens, when the actuality is that the citizens are expected and required to defend the government.
This is the reality in wartime. Always has been, the U.S. included.
I think Ukrainian leaders are prioritizing standing for Ukraine first, liberty second.
Are they going to have any country left when it's all over?
I mean, Ukrainians get to make the judgement for themselves, but I'm having a hard time imagining that what's going on now, and the likely end state of the war, could be preferable to Ukraine being more in the Russian sphere of influence.
And if democracy and self-determination is what this is all about, shouldn't the people in Eastern Ukraine get to vote on what country they should be a part of?
Certainly the people in Eastern Ukraine should get to vote on what country they want to be a part of. But it needs to be a free vote, and that can't happen if it's occupied by Russian troops.
It wasn't when they took the vote
You mean the Crimean vote? That was done under Russian guns.
Additionally, we know Russian has been influencing votes, not just with propaganda, but I wouldn't put it past the old KGB to actually falsify the votes of a foreign nation.
Wow, so trusting of the State Department and their media organs.
Funny how they've lied about everything else, but they're totes telling the truth here.
I was speaking of the LPR and DPR votes. No Russian troops present, but a bunch of people scared of the Kievan regime who'd just outlawed their language as a first act.
If you believe Crimea only voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia because Russian troops were present, you haven't actually looked at any evidence. You're 100% going by what our government tells you.
Do the people of Northern California also get a vote on what state they want to be part of?
Why not?
They do get a vote and they've voted to move to Florida.
I have a hard time imagining we'd react this way to near any other invasion. Russia gets treated differently a lot of times, like they're owed the former Soviet nations or something.
As for, "shouldn't the people in Eastern Ukraine get to vote on what country they should be a part of?"
I'm open to that line of questioning. I think that's a question for Ukraine and for political pressure to be put on them to allow secession if it's for the best. Russians coming in with military force, killing civilians and destroying infrastructure is not justified from that.
So you literally have no clue what's been happening from 2014 to February 2022
Depends on what? The Russian annexation of Crimea? Or the political instability of Ukraine?
The civil war after LPR and DPR declared independence, which has seen Kiev's paramilitaries and security service commit numerous atrocities, with a death toll in the 15k range and frequent shelling of civilian neighborhoods that contained no military targets?
There is a fundamental conflict between valuing democracy and self determination and defending at all costs the current borders of a particular nation state.
This isn't about defending democracy or freedom. It's about powerful nation states jockeying for power and influence and not giving a fuck how many ordinary people get fucked over or killed in the process.
What Russia has done is bad and not justified. But we are only making things worse for actual people who have to live there, as well as for Americans through US involvement.
Question: what would've had to have happened to justify Russian invasion, in your opinion?
Russia has been trying to help LPR and DPR find a diplomatic solution for 8 years, resisting calls to send troops and those territories' requests for annexation. Kiev has broken all prior ceasefire agreements, receives arms, funding, and training from NATO for their extremist paramilitaries, hosts NATO intel operations, and has constantly maintained its intent to violently reconquer Donbass territory.
Is your position that anything short of a direct, kinetic attack on Russian territory leaves Russia without justification to intervene, regardless of LPR and DPR requests or NATO/Ukraine posturing?
You can always rebuild, Europe did it after WW2. However if you bend over and take it from Russians then you're going to be gangbanged for the next 40 years by Putin flunkies.
Also OP quit being a Putin shill.
Stop breathing, totalitarian leftist cancer
"Putin shill"
Okay, Biden shill.
And they will probably rebuild on our dime. I don't know about you, but given the choice I would go for a Ukraine being closer to Russia, thousands of Ukrainians and Russians not being dead, and Americans not paying to clean up a huge mess over the shit show that's happening now.
You can always rebuild. You can’t bring millions of dead back to life, you evil creep.
What's a little alien and sedition between friends? Or maybe some Korematsu? Those Russian sympathizers aren't going to lock themselves up, you know.
Is that why numerous Ukrainian leaders are buying up Swiss chalets?
I wonder where that money comes from? Maybe the sales of the weapons that are hitting the black market like Stingers, Javelins, and now HIMARs. The US and Ukraine have both admitted that they cannot account for the weapons once they hit Ukraine.
In that corrupt shithole anything goes, and it usually goes to the black market where it ends up with terror organizations.
We can condemn the actions of Moscow without forfeiting the right to point out missteps in Kyiv.
Tiptoeing towards reality, I see.
Verrrrrrrrry slowly
Sure, I agree. The Ukrainian Government's biggest mistake was not recognizing the Individual Right to self-defense and to keep and bear arms.
If that right were recognized, the Ukrainian people would not have been beholden to Zelenskyy's arms giveaway for their self-defense. And with an armed Citizenry, the Neo-Nazi Azov Batallion never woild have been able to rise to prominence in the Ukrainian military by claiming that Ukraine needs them.
An armed Ukrainian citizenry would have also meant no dependance on conscription and could have helped assure the preservation of all other civil liberties and Individual Rights.
And best of all, Putin and the Putineers would find a rifle behind every kernel of Ukrainian wheat.
This comment isn't anywhere close to reality
Honestly if you any Europeans, then you'd know that that less than 10% would have taken up arms if offered. He should have done something like switzerland did where every household is basically required to have a gun. Then when those fuckers come at least you get to take a couple out with you (well unless you get hit from an aerial bombardment, then well it sucks.
An armed population didn't go well for Kiev in the Donbass
Well, Putin hasn't seized Kyiv.
Why would Putin want Kiev?
Naturally, Citizens need knowledge of Emergency Preparedness and Civil Defense, including shelter-building and provisions.
what does he keep in the sleeve-pockets?
Now these are the important questions that no one is asking.
Cocaine?
Smokes, of course. But with war-time rationing he's out at the moment.
Liberty freedom and democracy means eliminating opposing political opponents, regulating the media to only offer state propaganda, and stealing money from tax payes to fund oligarchs.
I see why the dems love these people
Well, okay. But there is a war going on in Ukraine. The standards that we would apply for ordinary peacetime behavior do not necessarily apply in times of war. That is true not just in Ukraine but in every wartime situation.
For example, everyone here hates the draft, as we should. It violates virtually every libertarian principle. It is literal involuntary servitude. HOWEVER, suppose the nation was invaded by an authoritarian, unlibertarian power, and on the verge of collapse. From a utilitarian perspective, would a draft be justifiable? Would a temporary injustice be justifiable in order to stave off a much larger, more permanent injustice - subjugation and oppression by the foreign authoritarian power? When confronted with choices like these, the clearly correct answer gets a lot murkier.
Rights are great, governments ought to respect them. But there is a Lockean Proviso for a reason. There IS a point when purely utilitarian concerns become paramount. We should strive to make that point as remote as possible, but it does exist. And I think in the case of Ukraine, they've arguably reached that point based on the invasion.
So much for "radical individualism".
The truth is that the Russians have been trying to shop a settlement for years. They don't seem to particularly want the Donbas (they rejected annexation when the region voted for just that). They just don't want the NATO alliance right up on its border. And the Ukrainians have been engaged in brutal repression of Russian "separatists" in the region since the 2014 coup. So, it's hardly that they needed this particular war to launch their repressive streak.
The U.S. has no interest in this fight. And watching people like you twist themselves into knots trying to justify writing a blank check for one thugocracy in its fight against another thugocracy, all while declaring yourselves "more libertarian than thou" shows just how morally and intellectually bankrupt the whole enterprise is.
Well put
Did you even read what I wrote? The above argument says nothing about whether the US ought to support Ukraine or not.
I am simply pointing out that applying peacetime standards of conduct to a wartime situation may not be appropriate.
But who is the propaganda for??? Who exactly is Ukraine trying to influence? Perhaps it’s all for the American people who are funding this charade and eventually will pay to rebuild everything they blow up using the weapons we gave them? This propaganda machine goes way beyond anything justifiably necessary. I don’t appreciate Ukraines/Zalenskys propaganda being aimed at the US and I definitely do not appreciate being guilted into supporting such unnecessary spending and the death and destruction that has and will continue to follow.
Wake up, this is the second biggest scam ever perpetrated on the world. Zalensky invited this invasion with open arms and is now holding the West hostage with his BS videos screaming about protecting “democracy” and hero’s and struggles, it’s all so incredibly tiresome. He’s what happens when a Hollywood actor becomes the leader of a country.
I'll give it 3rd place
1. Climate change apocalyptism
2. Covid hysteria
3. Slava ukraini
Hell yeah, rights are transitory. Glad you finally admitted it.
Fuck the state. All of them.
"we are at war so i'm gonna fuck you over" is the oldest excuse in the book by the state.
Well, I am not an anarchist so I am fine with a minimal state.
Ideally, a free And prosperous society would have bots doing military stuff previously reserved solely for warm bodies. The rest would be for freedom-lovers using free minds instead of mere muscle. Then conscripfion is but a grim relic of history.
That would be nice.
Yea, totes no ethical questions about using murderbots to kill people!
Chemjeff, 98% of the nations on this planet are unfree. Ukraine and Russia are two of those. What they do to their citizens or to each other isn’t our business. If we make it our business, we become as unfree as they are.
So Jill Biden is starting to talk about her husband's presidency in the past tense. Things appear to be getting interesting.
Last week the "rumor" was that Newsome was in DC as a potential presidential "appointee;" apparently that was just a side show to accept an "education award" [?] and to pontificate on their favorite topics. Not at all sure how that would work vs. the usual line of succession [yeah, Kamala...].
So Shits will be out and Giggles will be in. Lovely.
Kamala can be Agnewed out of the way.
I’ve had that same thought lately. She could be set up for a big scandal. Although the dems are loathe to do that to a diversity hire like her.
So her offense would have to be something against Woke doctrine, voiding her POC card.
Yeah, the bar is pretty low otherwise.
They can't argue that she's too stupid to believe in Woke. IQ tests are unreliable in single digits.
I am always unimpressed at those who yap about the correct way to fight a war while sitting on the sidelines.
Personally, I have no opinion on how Ukraine should fight its war.
I do have a strong opinion that the US government should stay the hell out of the conflict and should not spend a dime on it.
While it's fine to criticize, we have to live in the real world. Name me a country that hasn't "worked" the media when it was at war on the level of an invasion? Sure in the US we have the advange of 70 or 80 years of proxy wars at this point to judge, but sorry Zelensky and Putin are not the same despite what all the closet MAGAs on reason.com comments section say.
Funny that you use "closet MAGA" like its some sort of epithet that's supposed to close down conversation. Look, if you're so eager to go defend the glories of Ukrainian sovereignty against that evil Putin, just post the link to your GoFundMe to buy your ticket to Kiev. I'm sure a few of us will be happy to chip in.
This is shrike again, isn't it.
"closet MAGAs"
I don't think any of us are closeted, shrike. Unlike you and the other fifty-centers we're not trying to hide our beliefs.
The (mostly) unstated part of all this: Russians (or "Orcs" as the saintly Ukrainians call them...) are an emotional/psychological/symbolic avatar for conservative and rural Americans.
The totalitarian globalist cabal is not just waging war on Russia, they're waging war on all of us. That's what The Great Reset is.
One, I do not take "Russian" as a synonym for "Putineer." War has not taken away my humanity and ability to see good in people of all nationalities.
Two, most Conservative, Rural Americans don't go around aerial-bombing schools and hospitals and kidnapping invaded people's to take home for who-knows-what purpose. People who see groomers and pedophiles under every bush should probably follow some Ukrainian-dropped "bread crumbs" on that route.
Encog still isn't bright enough to understand what's going on around him
He certain,y learned his pedo ways aren’t popular here. If anyone ever deserved to get SWATted, it’s Shrike.
I don’t give a f*ck whether Putin and Zelensky are the same or not. Their conflict is none of our business.
What I do care about is that we are spending $60 billion and counting on a foreign war that we have no interest in, that we are wrecking our economy with ill-conceived sanctions, that we are risking a nuclear war with Russia, and that the president’s family has been making corrupt deals with Ukraine and other foreign nations.
The west has doomed Ukraine. It is hard to believe this wasn't intentional because it was so obviously what was going to happen.
That's pretty much it, isn't it.
Ukrainians get to decide for themselves, but at this point I have a hard time believing that the current state of affairs is preferable to many over Ukraine being more in Russia's sphere of influence.
Putin is not justified in what he has been doing, but sometimes you just have to choose between shitty options because that's what's available.
Putin is not justified in what he has been doing,
I completely agree with you there. The problem I have is that Putin and the Russians really did seem to offer reasonable alternatives for years. We (the West) have been leading the Ukraine down the primrose path. We've given them reason to think they're going to be able to "stick it to the Russians", which they're inclined to want to do for a host of historical reasons. But, that really isn't in the cards.
“Justified” in what sense? Morally? Legally? According to who?
Putin’s actions were predictable. Not only did he announce them, they follow from essential Russian economic and strategic interests. That may not make them morally justified, but most US foreign adventures have not been morally justified either.
The fundamental fault here has been with US and European politicians, who could have avoided this war and the economic chaos linked to it.
There is also the idea of expanding one's options. This is a libertarian forum, you know.
You have the option of going and fighting yourself or sending money instead of asking Daddy Gov to steal from us at gunpoint and use us as human shields
FFS. The west didn't start this. Don't need to buy into Putin's BS. The countries on Putin's target list know that - from Kazakhstan to Ukraine to Baltics to Georgia to Finland.
Since you won't take my word for it.
I don't give a shit what people inthe West who are viewing everything from the perspective of how to blame the US think. They don't know shit about Ukraine or Russia - and don't care either.
If you think the US is to blame, then explain Kazakhstan's reaction to the Ukraine invasion. They are not in a US sphere of influence. If anything only Russia or China. It's ludicrous to assume they are just idiots.
Translation: it's hard for me to think please dont ask me to
He's not good at it.
I wish his brother Christopher Hitchens was still here. Having once been a Marxist and seeing the kind of men it attracts, The Hitch harbored no illusions about KGB men like Putin. And Christopher Hitchens pulled no punches against God, so Putin would be a pushover to him.
Nobody harbors any illusions about Putin’s character: the man is ruthless and evil. But so are Western politicians and Western corporate leaders.
This conflict is primarily about the massive fossil fuel resources in Ukraine, and the strategic position of Russia as a nation. Ruthless and evil people on both sides have done the math, and war is the consequence.
And while I can’t say whether Putin acts in the interest of the Russian people, I can say with absolute certainty that US leaders are not acting in the interests of the American people. The best thing for Americans would be for the US to stay the hell out of that conflict.
So "boaf sidez," amirite?
Well, mealy-mouth, if this is about fossil fuel, don't be Ukrainian people have a right to defend theirs?
And doesn't this mean that, rather than doling out foreign aid, the U.S. and the rest of the West could sell Ukraine horizontal drilling technology, as well as refined fuel to tide them over, let them buy weapons from the oil profits, then let them defend themselves? All with no American lives lost?
Get out of your privacy-fenced, gated Stepford once in a while! There's a whole world outside your head!
Encog apparently thinks the Ukrainian people have the right to own and kill the people of Crimea and the Donbass...
Sorry I didn't fluff your war boner but facts is facts mr free
The West helped create the situation. Who started it isn't very important. Of course Putin started this war that's happening now.
Putin has made it clear for decades what actions by the West would provoke reactions by Russia, what the red lines are. The West started this conflict by repeatedly crossing those red lines.
I thought you didn't care!???
Which is perhaps why he can look at the evidence and arrive at a logical conclusion instead of just spewing spittle and State Department talking points
https://summit.news/2022/07/19/place-where-biden-face-planted-off-bike-is-named-brandon-falls-on-google-maps/
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hundreds-california-truckers-block-oakland-terminal-access-protest-ab5
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/charges-dropped-against-colbert-late-show-team-arrested-unlawful-entry-capitol
Yes, and Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. I think it might be useful to debate the niceties, legalities and philosophical nuances of some of Ukraine's actions.
But, maybe we can help them stop the invasion of their country before we go there.
A bit late for that now, isn't it? Maybe we should have minded our business instead of getting involved in what should have been a brief regional conflict but now has unnecessarily killed thousands of Ukrainians and Russians and puts us in a real danger of being at war with Russia.
Neville, is that you?
Because the western part of Czechoslovakia voted via referendum to declare independence, then appealed to Germany for help when the Prague based government went to war on them? And Germany tried to reach a diplomatic solution and ceasefire for 8 years without sending troops, even though the Prague government was being funded, fed weapons, and hosting Soviet military "trainers"?
Or is that drastically different from what happened, rendering the "Neville" name calling misplaced and vapid?
^This. Things are different in wartime. Let's get all judgy with Ukraine after they get the boot off their neck.
Should Zelenskyy lock up all people of Russian decent like Roosevelt did with Japanese Americans. Did you know old Abe Lincoln shut down all newspapers that were the least sympathetic to the South. And locked up pro Southern people until the end of the war. Drafting men from 18-60? Do you know how many draft protesters were killed in one anti draft riot by Lincolns army, over 800 in one day. This country is fighting for it life and any actions he takes are justified. Except anything approaching what the Americans have done. If he fails you will soon be very sorry as the US is on the list (Alaska...no...)
You apparently haven't seen or heard what's being done to suspected "Russians"
Protip: When you're excuse for something is that Lincoln did it, you're defending evil.
As for helping stop the invasion of their country, we didn't stop a coup, why stop an invasion?
Why should we “help them stop the invasion of their country”? What business of ours is it?
I think they just want to stand as an independent country and win a war.
An independent country, but not a free one. So why should we care who wins?
Independent?
LOL
Independent country? Who are you kidding?
If Ukraine is “integrated into the West”, Western corporations will descend on its resources like vultures. That’s what this war is really about.
And should Ukrainians vote to tax those corporations too highly or nationalize them, the West will not hesitate to destroy any democracy there an install a regime friendly to well-connected corporations.
Hell, if they get to corporate ownership they'll still be more independent than they are now.
Ukraine is currently a totalitarian state whose government is wholly dependent on the "charity" of other nations, and who follows those nations' orders.
Why do so many libertarian fail to understand that in a total war for survival against a mass murderous enemy, not many of the usual rules apply. The notion pro-Russian parties should not be banned during a war with Russia is flat out crazy.
So Ukrainian freedoms should be abandoned because Russia does something? Why? If your State can't win a war without completely censoring dissent it should fall. And where is the evidence that this is a "total war for survival"? Russia has repeatedly offered solutions that DON'T include completely taking over Ukraine.
Ukraine "freedoms"? Such as the freedom of the people in one section of the region to separate themselves from the Nazis that overthrew the elected government in 2014? Are those the freedoms that you're referring to?
As a libertarian, I understand that the war between Ukraine and Russia is none of my business. I don’t even have a philosophical interest in what’s happening in those nations, since neither of them have ever been even remotely libertarian.
Ukraine does have Libertarian organizations. Russia does not.
LOL
They were banned well before any war/invasion started.
“Total war for survival?”
Give it a rest already. Zalensky is a Drama queen and everyone making comments like this are too.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I can understand Ukraines need to maintain a unified front given how much the odds were already stacked against them in the beginning of this war. Unlike Putins censorship which is only used to propagate unjustified actions of war and invasion. I feel the writer of this article is very disconnected from the reality that Ukraine finds itself in.
“ Zelenskyy would do better to use his platform to debunk the falsehoods spread by Russia than to try to shut them down.”
Is this writer seriously recommending the president of Ukraine use already limited resources to go around debunking every falsehood coming their way from Russia and Russia’s allies in this propaganda war? Has the writer ever heard of the tactic “Gish Galloping”. That recommendation from the writer is a losing strategy.
You State Department bots are so shrill
When you refer to missteps by Kiev, are you referring to little bloopers like overthrowing a democratically elected government with backing from Victoria Nuland and the CIA? Or being in bed with the Nazi Azov Battalions and other Nazi groups?
https://twitter.com/DrLeoMarvin5/status/1499616619391176704?t=KN2kTMjVaKTseP7Zeg0sfQ&s=19
Mainstream media articles about the far right in Ukraine for debate bros that deny it : feel free to add to this thread
[Links]
If anyone bothered to do their homework on zalensky and his rise to power they’d know he is everything but the hero he’s been made out to be. His approval ratings were in the dumpster before this Russian invasion. The invasion saved him and his corrupt incompetent government made up of his show biz buddies. Zalensky is a dangerous person for Ukraine and the US. Anyone believing this nonsense about Ukraine being a “democracy” is naive. When regions of the country are forbidden from voting and forbidden from having representation in the government you can’t in any way say Ukraine is about free and fair elections or a democratic country!
It is unconscionable that the west would intervene in the way it has. Millions will starve and millions will freeze to death this winter. The US will be weaker and poorer. The only winner in this ridiculous charade is Russia!!!!
Well, Zelenskyy gave away arms to Ukrainian Citizens, so he'll have to answer to them for his suppression of civil liberties, and especially if he tries recalling the weapons. 🙂
He already does have to, though not all the citizens and Zelensky didn't give them the arms (the US government did). Zelensky is as much a prop as Biden. Ukraine is at war now because the Ukrainian security state, those fine Azov and affiliate boys, wouldn't let him agree to peace.
Wholesale Trade Printing
If your in the middle of the ocean and your boat is sinking hindsight is a luxury. You stop the leak and bail out the water . Yes maybe in hindsight and a few decades later it seemed wrong to do what was done to the U.S citizens Japanese decent but at the time you do the best you can do . Then when the crises is over you you make amends . As for manipulating the public why criticize the Ukraine when our media including this publication is guilty of it 90% of the time .
Let's see now: the Obomber administration along with NATO finace and support the Maiden. During that little dust up foreign snipers of unknown origin shot and killed people on both sides.
The then president Yanukovych was then removed from power followed by Porschenko or as they called him Porky. Yanukovych was on friendly terms with Putin. After the Maiden and the rise of the neo-nazi squads, then began the shelling of the Donbass region which had murdered between 10,000 and 12,000 ethnic Russians.
All the while the EU, NATO and Washington remained silent. Nothing. Not one word of protest. Not even the U.N.
So what was Putin supposed to do? Sit there and watch fellow Russians being ruthlessly slaughtered by Urkainian neo-nazis?
Putin did what he had to do and I don't fault him one god damn bit.
Ukraine is not a democracy. It is a shitty little third world European nation that hasn't been able to pull itself together long enough to be able to crawl out of the cess pool run by the oligarchs.
Zelensky is a coke sniffing little comedienne/ wannabe dictator with delusions of grandeur. He is the Benny Hill of Eastern Europe only that Benny Hill was much more intelligent than this clown.
I condemn the U.S. congress for supporting Zelensky, especially at the cost of helping the American people while the MIC is growing fatter.
I condemn Washington for aidding and abetting one of the worst crimes against humanity that occurred in the Donbass.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been hailed as a classical liberal hero
Is that what they're calling corrupt, kleptocratic puppet now?
Were Diem and the Shah classical liberal heroes too?
No, but their successors were according to some people, despite the murderous regimes that followed.
Is Stephanie Slade actually this naive?
I'd like to see a case of a country at war with enemy troops inside its borders that did not engage in censorship and survived. I'll settle for any country whether or not it survived. Crisis brings out authoritarian impulses because basically, almost no one believes in the practicality of freedom.
LOL, right?
Jfree's enthusiastic lack of intelligence is one of the most entertaining features of Reason comments.
As stated above, what if the alternative was conquest and enslavement by an authoritarian foreign power?
I am with you that 99.9% of the time the draft is an abomination. But there is that 0.1% scenario when it may actually represent the lesser evil.
The radically individualist answer to that is that there will be plenty of volunteers to fight off an unwanted invasion. But your point seems to be typically collectivist.
"To avoid conquest by a foreign authoritarian state, it's ok to become a totalitarian state domestically"
-collectivistjeff
And, of course, we're ignoring that "conquest" has never been a stated, or even implied, goal by Russia. Indeed, it is Ukraine that seeks to conquer territories and peoples who declared independence and asked Russia for help. The US/anglosphere/NATO is currently helping Ukraine try to conquer those peoples.
Again, what's a little alien and sedition between friends? Or maybe some Korematsu? We've all done it. Those Russian sympathizers aren't going to lock themselves up, you know.
The radically individualist answer to that is that there will be plenty of volunteers to fight off an unwanted invasion.
And if the volunteers are insufficient in fighting off the invasion? Then what?
Are you all seriously arguing that the same standard of ethics ought to apply everywhere in every situation no matter what?
Okay, here is an example. Suppose there are two men on a lifeboat and only one bottle of water. Who gets the water?
Fine, then I will put you down in favor of enslavement by the invading conquering power. Have fun in the gulag.
Holy fuck, I thought you couldn't get more retarded.
Yes you dumbass, ethics and principles transcend situation and location.
The answer to lifeboat scenarios is to build more lifeboats and get more knowledge and provision before emergencies.
And the only book to bring on a desert island is one on how to build a lifeboat, get the fuck out, and survive until you get the fuck home.
The U.S. Navy Bluejacket's Manual is one good example and The Art of Shen Ku, minus the Occidental and Oriental Woo, is another good one.
You have little faith. I always knew he could hit new levels of retardation.
Ah yes, because clearly Ukraine provoked this invasion just so they'd have a pretext to ban people.