Why Didn't a 'Red Flag' Law Prevent the Illinois Mass Shooting, and Would New Federal Rules Have Mattered?
The answers underline the limitations of laws that aim to prevent this sort of crime by restricting access to firearms.
The mass shooting at an Independence Day parade in Highland Park, Illinois, poses a familiar question: Why didn't the state's "red flag" law, which is designed to disarm people who are deemed a threat to themselves or others, prevent the perpetrator from buying the rifle he used in the attack? The gun control law that Congress passed in response to recent mass shootings raises another question: Would its provisions have made any difference in this case?
The answers to those questions underline the limitations of laws that aim to prevent this sort of crime by restricting access to firearms. Gun controls that look sensible in theory frequently fail in practice, either because they are ill-suited to prevent mass shootings, do not apply, or were not enforced. That does not mean such laws have no effect on violent crime. But it does mean that Americans should be skeptical when politicians tout the lifesaving potential of a particular policy, especially when it also has the potential to deprive innocent people of their constitutional rights.
The New York Times notes that the 21-year-old man who prosecutors say admitted to murdering seven people and injuring dozens of others in Highland Park on Monday "was known to police" because of two incidents in 2019. In April 2019, Reuters reports, police visited his Highland Park home in response to a 911 caller who said he "had attempted suicide." That September, police returned in response to "alleged threats 'to kill everyone' that he had directed at family members."
During the second visit, police asked the young man if he was suicidal, which he denied. They "seized a collection of 16 knives, a dagger and a sword" that belonged to the 18-year-old's father, which they later returned to him.
Police did not arrest the son because they lacked probable cause to believe he had committed a crime. "There were no complaints that were signed by any of the victims," Chris Covelli, a sergeant with the Lake County Sheriff's Office, told reporters yesterday. But Highland Park police reported the incident to the Illinois State Police, which took no action.
State police offered two explanations for that. First, the future mass murderer at that point did not have a firearm owners identification card (FOID), which is required to legally buy or own guns in Illinois, and had not applied for one. Second, Reuters reports, state police "said no relative or anyone else was willing 'to move forward with a formal complaint' or to provide 'information on threats or mental health that would have allowed law enforcement to take additional action.'"
The state's red flag law, which took effect at the beginning of 2019, authorizes police as well as family members to seek a "firearms restraining order" that bars the respondent from purchasing or possessing guns. But if the future killer's relatives were uncooperative, collecting evidence to support a petition would have been difficult, since the case hinged on their account of his words and actions.
Like the other states with red flag laws, Illinois gives people who are concerned that someone poses a danger two options. They can obtain an "emergency" order, which is issued without a hearing or notice, if a judge decides there is "probable cause to believe that the respondent poses an immediate and present danger of causing personal injury to himself, herself, or another." Such ex parte orders last up to two weeks, at which point the respondent actually gets a chance to respond.
Alternatively, or when an ex parte order is about to expire, a petitioner can seek a six-month order, which requires a hearing. The standard at that point is "clear and convincing evidence" that the respondent poses "a significant danger…in the near future." If an order is issued, it can be renewed for another six months based on a showing that the respondent continues to pose a significant danger.
The evidence that a judge is required to consider includes "threats of violence or acts of violence by the respondent directed toward himself, herself, or another." That certainly seems relevant in this case. But again, police would have had a hard time presenting such evidence without the family's cooperation.
Three months after his second encounter with police, the alleged killer, then 19, obtained an FOID. Because he was younger than 21, he needed the written consent of a parent or guardian, which his father supplied. A lawyer representing the father told the Times "his client did not believe there was an issue" and "might not have understood what happened with the knife seizure because it did not happen in his house."
If the father had recognized the threat his son posed, he presumably would not have supported the FOID application, which would have prevented the killer from legally buying guns until he turned 21—i.e., last September. But in that case, the father probably would have been willing to file or support a red flag petition.
The other requirements for an FOID largely track federal restrictions on gun ownership, which among other things disqualify people with certain kinds of criminal or psychiatric records. None of those disqualifications applied.
For the same reason, the alleged murderer passed background checks when he bought several guns, including the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 rifle that police say was used in the attack, in 2020 and 2021. According to Reuters, "police said the only offense detected…during background checks was for unlawful possession of tobacco in 2016." There were "no mental health prohibiter reports."
In retrospect, it is easy to say that state police made a disastrous mistake by failing to seek a red flag order. Based on documentation of the two police calls, they might have met the probable-cause requirement for an ex parte order. But presenting clear and convincing evidence of a continuing threat to justify a six-month order was another matter. If no one with relevant knowledge was willing to come forward, it is hard to see how police could have satisfied that standard. And even if they had, the order would have had to be repeatedly renewed to block the gun purchases, the last of which happened two years later.
Reuters says the case raises "questions about the adequacy of the state's 'red flag' laws even as a prosecutor lauded the system as 'strong.'" Legislators could respond by changing that system, but doing that would entail unavoidable tradeoffs between prevention and due process.
Requiring police to seek restraining orders whenever they have "credible information" suggesting a threat, as New York recently did in response to the May 24 mass shooting in Buffalo, would mandate petitions even in cases where police do not think they can meet the law's evidentiary standards. Weakening those standards might help prevent would-be killers from buying guns, but it would also magnify the already substantial risk that innocent people will lose their Second Amendment rights based on erroneous (or malicious) allegations. Lengthening order terms would prolong such unjust deprivations, allowing the continued suspension of constitutional rights even when there is no evidence of a continuing risk.
The Times suggests that the recently enacted Bipartisan Safer Communities Act might have prevented the Highland Park attack. As relevant here, that law requires that background checks for gun buyers younger than 21 include juvenile criminal and psychiatric records. It also prohibits gun sales to adults with disqualifying juvenile records even after they turn 21.
The Times says it is "possible—but not certain" that the Highland Park killer "could have been flagged for additional scrutiny had the federal law been passed earlier." But as with other mass shootings by murderers younger than 21, there is no indication that an expanded background check would have stopped him from obtaining guns.
If the background checks turned up "unlawful possession of tobacco in 2016," they must have included juvenile criminal records. And if there were "no mental health prohibiter reports," that suggests the alleged killer had never been subjected to involuntary psychiatric treatment, which would have disqualified him under the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act if it happened when he was 16 or older.
While the benefits of those new federal restrictions are doubtful, their costs are clear. Many adults will lose their Second Amendment rights based on what they did (or what was done to them) when they were minors. That rule leaves no room for rehabilitation, and it contradicts the general principle that juvenile offenses should not result in lifelong disabilities.
People understandably want to believe that the right combination of regulations could prevent horrifying crimes like Monday's attack, and politicians encourage that belief by perpetually demanding their favored solutions. But given the inescapable challenges of distinguishing between harmless oddballs and future mass murderers, those solutions are bound to come up short.
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Because progressives are bad at literally everything?
Except it is not only progressives invoking this red flag bullshit
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If you flag a person and then let them go free, you might be motivating them to do harm out of anger and revenge where there was none before the flag.
This is known as unequal yet apposite reaction. ANY initiation of force against someone who is minding their own business begs for exactly that outcome. There used to be an alternative--fighting back with Libertarian party spoiler votes. Look at violence figures for 1969-1971, before folks managed to form a libertarian party alternative for both men and women. Think on that...
The left keeps demanding "common sense" gun laws but none of their proposed laws make any sense at all. Each time they start a big push for some nation-wide law, they insist that it will save lives. It doesn't but they have accomplished their goal of taking "an inch" so they move on to demanding their next "common sense" gun restriction. All of these have one goal and that is to take away the guns of the law-abiding citizen who values freedom.
If it was truly about saving lives, they would be arresting and jailing the criminals in downtown Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta, Portland, Philadelphia, New York, etc. who have rap sheets 30 pages long and who are constantly violating their probation (Hmmm, what DO all those cities have in common?)
BTW, what was the total of gun shootings and deaths in Chicago over the Independence Day weekend (without including the parade shooting)? Was there a moment of silence for those people? What were their names?
You're right, that's why they're first going after AR's, even though rifles of all types are a statistical blip in firearms murders, and
"mass murders" and school shootings yield other relatively minor stats. Scary black rifles are easy to demonize, so they go after the low-hanging fruit before moving on to the next type of firearm or newest repressive law when their new crop of restrictions ultimately fail to reduce criminal behavior.
Guns don't kill people, democrats kill people, especially in democrat-run hellholes like Baltimore, St. Louis, Chicago, New Orleans, etc., etc. The most reliably democrat voting demographic commits more than half the murders in the U.S. though they compose only about 13% of the populace. But that's not who/what the left want to control.
They did that in Richmond, Va for a while (Project Exile), where they kicked all guns crimes to federal court where there were mandatory minimums. Had to stop the program because it was "racist".
Speaking of Richmond...
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/mass-shooting-two-illegal-immigrants-richmond-foiled-tipster-police
Police claim a tip from a concerned citizen foiled a planned mass shooting at an evening July 4th celebration at a packed Richmond amphitheater.
Now, 52-year-old Julio Alvardo-Dubon and 38-year-old Rolman A. Balacarcel sit in the Richmond city jail, each initially charged with being a non-U.S. citizen in possession of a firearm. Both are Guatemalans in the United States illegally, and it's been claimed at least one has already been deported multiple times.
Whatever their names are,. their deathsn sure were not prevented by red flag laws.
"Common sense" and "sensible" are just meaningless buzz words they use to take our guns. That is all.
Because he was younger than 21, he needed the written consent of a parent or guardian, which his father supplied.
Wait. These are still nominally adults. Why would a competent 18 ~ 21 year-old have, much less need, a "guardian"?
Can you name a single competent 18 year old?
Noa Mintz and Jay Dawar
those in the military and have completed basic training. they're trusted with firearms.
Not exactly. Weapons on a military base are tightly controlled.
The rookies only get to play on the range, under supervision.
I agree, any one 18 to 21 should have to complete training equivalent to the what the military gives to possess a firearm.
Just curious, enlisted men are issued rifles, so who trains the officers on pistols?
The pistol training guy.
But we let them vote?
Some would *require* them to vote!
Some want to further reduce the age for voting to 16 or 14, but at the same time raise the ages for drinking, smoking, buying porn, buying guns.
18 year olds also require the consent of a parent to drink beer in Texas.
You can't predict the future. So why the fuck are progressives putting "future mind reading" laws on the books?
It's about as effective as hiring all of Dionne Warwick's psychic friends to solve crime.
If they could get a red flag based on the say-so of Dionne Warwick, they would.
FUCK red flag laws. Unconstitutional fodder for the masses to feel all safe, warm, and snuggly. It is nothing but a tool of control for the oligarch.
The massive surveillance arm of this country surely knew who he was and of his social media posts and did nothing. They did nothing because they want the masses to DEMAND the surveillance police State.
There is also a fundamental flaw underneath the "logic" (and I use the word loosely) of red flag laws. Simply put, if you have convincingly demonstrated that a person is a danger and thus must be deprived of their firearms, why are you allowing them to go free?
If you fear they're suicidal, well there are plenty of things that they can get access to to kill one's self with; toaster in the bathtub, drug overdose, rope, a high bridge etc. And if you fear them going on a shooting spree, well as we saw in Waukesha and the Boston bombing, you don't need a gun to kill people.
if you have convincingly demonstrated that a person is a danger and thus must be deprived of their firearms, why are you allowing them to go free?
"A person who cannot be trusted with a firearm is a person who cannot be trusted without a custodian."
Pretty much and supporters of red flag laws haven't thought it all the way through.
We have massive collection of data, not necessarily massive analysis of that data.
red flag laws should not exist to work or not.
Reuters says the case raises "questions about the adequacy of the state's 'red flag' laws
I would speculate that red-flag laws are not intended to be successful. They are intended to highlight the failures. Notice that after every incident now, they go on and on about how the shooters obtained their weapons legally. This is a concerted effort between socialist politicians and the complicit media to create a narrative to erode faith in the 2nd Amendment to the point it can be repealed.
Also notice the utter lack of comparison to another attack on a parade that occurred only 8 months ago. That would be because it proves that a lunatic with a grudge can do just as much damage with a Ford Escape as he can with 5 guns. Just like the incident in Nice on Bastille Day that proved a lunatic can kill more people on the street with a truck than the Vegas shooter killed with 2 machine guns and a captive audience.
Red flag laws will be (have been) falsely used by angry (ex-)spouses in divorce proceedings. I mean, if you're willing to falsely accuse your spouse of sexually molesting your kids, what's a false gun charge among ex-friends?
That's why you have the right to go to court and argue your case. Judges are not very well disposed towards people who make bogus complaints.
If you were a judge, which side would you err on? It's much safer to stop an innocent man from having access to weapons than to potentially feel morally responsible for a murder, suicide, or mass shooting later.
Ask the FBI
Hi Nardz, Can you explain a little bit more?
You don't understand the (semi snarky) implication?
"Why Didn't a 'Red Flag' Law Prevent the Illinois Mass Shooting"
While I'm not discounting the possibility that seeking a GVRO wouldn't have ultimately changed the course of events, it seems pretty abundantly clear that the police erred in not making an attempt and getting things on file.
We've seen the same pattern before where individual people "should have known" that someone probably shouldn't have had access to firearms, but those individual actors failed to allow a paper trail to be formed, for various ideological or bureaucratic reasons.
GVROs, when written well, are effective for cases where sustained involuntary confinement isn't indicated. It's not un-libertarian to ask for existing laws on the books to be utilized appropriately.
A reasonable and sensible "solution" to such crimes as mass shootings does not exist. Contrary to all the optimistic "we can do this, we are better than this" palaver. As long as guns, knives, gasoline, fertilizer, panel trucks and SUVs are available, some [a very very small fraction] will be misused to harm others by POS like this character.
The best anyone can do is prepare themselves to be their first line of defense. That is no panacea, but it is the best we can do. Molly Godiva or some such will be along to scoff and claim that is no way to live in a so called "civilized" society, but honestly I see no other recourse.
the cause is societal. when you have so many families without fathers and children being raised without without boundaries, discipline and love this is what you get. this is of course not the total cause -- sometimes you have a child raised in a perfectly normal family just turn out bad. not the parent's fault. some people are just sociopaths and evil people. not much to do about that scenario, but eliminating firearms is certainly not the solution.
Red flag laws should be replaced by behavior based laws.
Make a threat to illegally kill a human being, lose your gun rights for 2-3 years. Joke? Hyperbole? No difference.
As decided by a formal, due process hearing, not by a simple accusation.
This is just a red flag law by another name, and further extended
It differs by requiring a finding of guilt, rather than a judgement by a person who may have invalid reasons to accuse.
Thought crimes.
Observe the construction: Maynard G Krebs "human being" rather than individual person dealt with in the current Constitution. Imagine for a moment a Trumpanzee or Bidenista Constitution... now resolve to take back our 1972-1976 Libertarian party and forever be on guard against anarcho-fascist and anarcho-communist infiltrators alike.
Perhaps red flag laws need to operate like domestic violence laws. If police determine a family member has committed violence against another family member, he will be arrested and tried, even if the victim begs police and/or prosecutors to let the defendant go.
Let's face it. Family members are loathe to admit that one of their own has a problem, whether it's mental health, alcohol/drug abuse, or violence.
How many times have parents told teachers that their children are smart, but lazy, rather than admit he may have trouble with a subject, or a learning disability.
I have seen plenty of crime investigation shows where parents refuse to cooperate with police, looking for a child wanted for a serious crime. It was an episode of The First 48 where parents were arrested for obstruction, because they were sending money to a fugitive son hiding in another state, after claiming they had no idea where their son was.
The gun control issue is the gift that keeps on giving. The red flag laws won't stop these massacres. Background checks won't either. But they do provide an effective stepping stone to the ultimate goal of outlawing the private ownership of guns. The tactic is to push for a given law that will "save a life", and then when it doesn't, push for the next law that will of course be ineffectual at saving a life, and keep going. The goal is not to save a life, but to outlaw guns. That is the strategy: repeatedly claim the need for an inch until the mile is attained.
Nail hit squarely on the head here.
And to hell with outlawing the initiation of force to impose altruism and pseudoscience at gunpoint because "vice." So get used to unequal yet apposite reprisal force, since we no longer have a rights-defending Libertarian party to vote with.
Red flag laws aren't designed to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. Those laws are designed to keep guns out of the hands of those who disagree with government dictates, and of those who are the enemies of the political left.
The left is perfectly happy for the gang-bangers of Chicago and the parade shooter to have access to guns, because the actions of those thugs assist them in taking away the guns of law-abiding citizens. Why do you think so few criminals are actually sentenced for violations of gun laws. Meanwhile, if a firearm permit holder forgets he has a box of shot-gun shells in the trunk of his car and is stopped by law enforcement in the wrong state, it is off to prison for him.
"Why do you think so few criminals are actually sentenced for violations of gun laws. "
Because that would be racist? Or so they say (see Project Exile).
People who threaten to commit suicide are definitely on the mental illness side of things. The fact that the police were called to the residence by a family member for that complaint should have been enough for a 5150 72-hour hold for mental evaluation, without the family signing a formal complaint.
The cops were right to collect all the bladed weapons upon that complaint, but wrong to return them without a formal evaluation instead of the perpetrator simply saying he feels much better now and won't commit suicide.
Some 60% of gun deaths are suicides. If common-sense gun laws work, we could eliminate those gun deaths by imposing draconian--even capital--punishment on anyone committing suicide by gun. The threat of that level of punishment will certainly prevent these deaths.
By what standard?
Red Flag -
They can obtain an "emergency" order, which is issued without a hearing or notice, if a judge decides there is "probable cause to believe that the respondent poses an immediate and present danger of causing personal injury to himself, herself, or another."
US Constitution -
4th Amendment;
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
6th Amendment;
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
One of these things is not like the others - - - - - - - - - - - -
What I find amazing is the family in this case. The father signs off on a permit to buy a weapon for a kid with these kinds of problems. The kid has a collection of knives, and nobody says something. And yes, if he was into cooking or had a collection of antique knives mounted in display, I would accept that. But just a bundle of knives, no way would my kid get to have that in my house.
We need red flag laws that work and part of that is for people, usually in the family, have to speak up. It might help to point out to families that these killers often start with family members before going to the elementary school, the grocery store or the parade.
In two other articles it was reported that the knives actually belonged to the father and they were storing them in the son’s room.
75% of the people in our prisons are adult males who grew up without their father at home. That is the single biggest denominator of those who commit violent crimes…and it seems to be the situation in this case as well. Thus promoting more intact and healthy nuclear families seems to be the best way for a society to prevent violent crimes.
As my supervisor said back when I had a brief (thankfully!) stint at teaching: "Show my a screwed up kid and I'll show you a screwed up parent".
Republicans evidently are trying to prove those eugenics theories that favor selective breeding for mystical altruism. Denial much? Ask any republican or anarcho-fascist if Adolf Hitler--Catholic painter of Madonna and Jesus portraits and drafter of Christian National Socialist platform policy--was really a Christian.
To further illustrate the difficulties and perils of red flag laws I offer the following.
Many politicians might think it reasonable to prevent anyone who has attempted suicide from owning firearms. But a recent study in the San Francisco Bay Area found that nearly 1 in 5 young people had attempted suicide before they reached the age of 18. To the best of my knowledge, none of these young people have committed a mass shooting—ever. So, if politicians passed such a law, 20% or more adult citizens would be striped of their 2nd Amendment rights with no discernible effect on mass shootings.
So, what is the rational reason for allowing a young person who has attempted suicide access to a weapon that would make that suicide attempt so much easier? I would point out that while the second amendment gives a person the right to own a firearm it does not say that it is a good idea. People need to think about why they want to own a firearm and then use good judgement. Having attempted suicide suggest the person has a shortage of that good judgement.
To make the suicide attempt easier, of course.
What rational reason? How about to protect themselves against the threat that made them suicidal? Lots of abuse and other threats out there that are behind suicide attempts. People who think there is no other way out. Now I’m not saying that is always the case. But it does happen a lot. There are also lots of examples where being able to defend yourself is effective in getting these threats or abuse to stop. We
First, I would not say it happen a lot, I would suggest your idea happen very infrequently. In those cases where an individual is abused or bullied, having a gun is more likely to get them in deeper and different trouble. The abused individual need help, not a gun.
Read the last line of the Nazi party platform. There, in black and white, they pledge: "relentlessly... if necessary at the cost of their own lives." Twenty-five years later Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, plus tens of thousands of devout Christian nazis hung or lay as dead as any of Jim Jones' People's Church congregation. Dave Chappel can detect serious: "the guy cut off his own dick!" Surely he's not the only American smart enough to notice "mystical fanatics blow off their own heads!"
When I was in San Francisco--before Governor Reagan's ban on LSD sent men with guns out to attack youth, nobody wanted to commit suicide. After the Nixon regime incorporated the George Wallace movement, it was exactly like living in a dictatorship. East Germany also had a very high suicide rate. You'd think people would notice these correlations and wonder about causal connections. They who value the initiation of force to destroy individual rights are anti-life.
"the case raises "questions about the adequacy of the state's 'red flag' laws"
The case raises "questions about the effectiveness of 'red flag' laws in general.
FTFY.
The laws obviously need to federal to overcome the reality that there are no border crossings between states - good - and illegal weapons are transported over them all the time.
Given that the 2A is based on a militia which no longer exists as specified elsewhere in the constitution and hasn't for at well over a century and a half, it should be discarded by a future SC which understands original intent.
Blame me! I suggested modestly at libertariantranslator.wordpress. Republican and Mises Anschlussers want men with guns to hunt down and enslave women as labor dams. So I recommend reverse discrimination--enabling all women to buy and pack all manner of heat, including chemical and biological weapons, no questions asked. Almost NO women are collective shooters. I never dreamt "good" mystical altruist Trumpanzees like Crim-o or Daddy would cross-dress and shoot up a 4th parade to dis my suggestion!
Joe is wrong. Since 1984 I have argued in the Libertarian Defense Caucus newsletter and in Physics Today (April 1986) that the Second Amendment outlaws Nixon conspiring with totalitarians to "agree" to use deadly force to stop ABM, SDI and other methods of destroying incoming nuclear weapons. After hot debate, Soviet communism collapsed and we tore up those illegal treaties. I too would try to undermine the Bill of Rights if my goal were to help freedom's enemies within or without.