Medicare for All Would Be a Terrible Trade
Top-notch health care, delivered fast and for low cost, really isn’t on the government's menu.

If you ask, Americans tell you that health care costs too much. That opens a door, or so many politicians think, to dramatic "reforms" that would transform the provision of medicine in this country by putting the government in complete control. The catch, though, is that Americans want top-notch care, and for as close to free as possible. That runs up against the serious tradeoffs revealed most recently in last week's Senate hearings on the latest proposals for Medicare for All.
"Political party affiliation has little bearing on Americans' attitudes about the current cost of care, with overwhelming majorities of Americans across party lines agreeing that the cost of healthcare in America is 'higher than it should be,'" Gallup reported last year of surveys finding that 94 percent of Americans agree. Almost half of respondents call healthcare costs a "major priority" when deciding how to vote.
So, it's no surprise that politicians who favor a more active government jumped in with the Affordable Care Act a decade ago and now peddle the idea of implementing government-provided single-payer healthcare, usually in the guise of extending the generally popular Medicare program to the whole population. The public seems to like the idea, but only so long as it costs nothing.
"Recent Kaiser Family Foundation polls have found that 56 percent of the nation favors Medicare-for-all, compared with 74 percent of Americans who support expanded Medicare as an option for younger Americans in addition to private insurance," The Washington Post noted in 2019, the last time the proposal was seriously raised. "When the same people were told that a Medicare-for-all plan would raise taxes and eliminate private health insurance, support fell to 37 percent."
Other surveys do find greater willingness to pay higher taxes, though mostly among Democratic voters. But "only one in 10 registered voters want the equivalent of Medicare for all if it means abolishing private health insurance plans." Kaiser, which frequently polls on the issue and asked the most detailed questions in 2019, found that tradeoffs depressed support for a single-payer plan into negative territory. Only 26 percent favored Medicare for All if it meant "delays in people getting some medical tests and treatment." That's a problem because top-notch care, delivered fast, at low cost really isn't on the menu.
"The increase in demand for personal health care would exceed the increase in supply, resulting in greater unmet demand than the amount under current law," Phillip L. Swagel, director of the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), told the Senate Budget Committee last week during a hearing on Medicare for All. "The increase in unmet demand would correspond to increased congestion in the health care system, including delays and forgone care."
On the plus side, Swagel predicted reduced out-of-pocket expenses for consumers and potential (though not guaranteed) reductions in overall national expenditures on healthcare. But much of the savings he sees coming from "lower payment rates" for providers and he warned that "payments lower than those projected under current law might cause fewer people to enter health care professions and fewer new drugs to be developed." That means even greater delays and slower advancement in medicine.
Cost-wise, Swagel said that "gross domestic product (GDP) would be approximately 1 percent to 10 percent lower by 2030 than the amount projected under current law…primarily because of the effects of increased taxes on labor and capital income."
The Mercatus Center's Charles Blahous, who earlier analyzed a 2018 Medicare for All bill championed by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) also testified before the committee, which is chaired by Sanders. He considered some of the more optimistic cost-control assumptions put forward by the CBO to be unrealistic.
"For example, CBO projects that 80% of the time nurses spend on administrative tasks would be eliminated by M4A[Medicare for All]," Blahous pointed out. "If we simply assume that M4A does half as well – that is, reducing nurses' administrative duties by 40% rather than 80% – and combine this with assumptions of Medicare level payment rates, as well as CBO's reasonable and well-studied assumptions regarding the prevalence of opt-outs, provider supply responses to payment cuts, and the ability of health providers and drug manufacturers to expand supply in response to demand – then we find that almost all of the additional health services promised by M4A would fail to materialize."
"In this scenario, it would be no exaggeration to say that M4A would increase eligibility and demand for additional healthcare, while in practice denying the promised additional access almost completely," he added.
The ten-year price tag of Medicare for All would be close to $31 trillion, Blahous estimated, which is lower than his prediction in 2018. "If $31 trillion were indeed the number, this would again exceed what could be financed by doubling all currently projected individual and corporate income taxes."
So, Medicare for All offers greater insurance coverage, but not necessarily increased access to care. And it does so at high cost. It's all about tradeoffs, and that's universal across health care systems which have to balance quality, access, and cost.
As of 2020 only 62 percent of Canadians told Commonwealth Fund pollsters that they "waited less than 4 months for non-emergency or elective surgery after they were advised they needed it" in that country's single-payer system, compared to 92 percent of Americans. Only 38 percent of Canadians were able to see a specialist within four weeks, compared to 69 percent of Americans. As a result, Canada is increasingly turning to private medicine to address the public system's failures.
"State health insurance patients are struggling to see their doctors towards the end of every quarter, while privately insured patients get easy access," Deutsche Welle reported in 2018 of Germany's similar challenges. "State health insurance companies only reimburse the full cost of certain treatments up to a particular number of patients or a particular monetary value.…Once that budget has been exhausted for the quarter, doctors slow down — and sometimes even shut their practices altogether."
In the United States, "traditional Medicare is in its sixth decade of penalizing high-quality care and thwarting the competitive forces that would otherwise improve quality" caution Michael Cannon of the Cato Institute and Jacqueline Pohida, a nurse practitioner, in a Quinnipiac Health Law Journal article published earlier this year. Rather than make the rest of health care more like Medicare, they recommend introducing more choice and private competition into the government system.
Polling finds that Medicare for All is popular, but only as a slogan. For most Americans, inevitable and unwelcome costs, sacrifices, and delays make Medicare for All the wrong prescription.
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Health Care Costs by Country 2022
United States ($10,586)
Switzerland ($7,317)
Norway ($6,187)
Germany ($5,986)
Sweden ($5,447)
Austria ($5,395)
Denmark ($5,299)
Netherlands ($5,288)
Health care ranking by nation:
United States
LPI 2020 Ranking: 18
LPI 2019 Ranking: 18
CEO World Ranking: 30
Best Healthcare in the World 2022https://worldpopulationreview.com › country-rankings
Country LPI 2020 Ranking LPI 2019 Ranking CEO World Ranking 2022 Population
Denmark 1 2 3 5,834,950
Norway 2 1 15 5,511,370
Switzerland 3 3 18 8,773,637
Ranking for patient satisfaction by nation:
US ranks 21st (after Canada)
We are not getting what we are paying for and we can't afford it either. Every developed country in the world has health care prices set by the national government, whether they are all government run (UK) or a mix of public private (Germany & France).
Do the math.
Great math Joe.. So you'll be EXITING the USA when?
Heck why are you even here? You "Do" the math so well you should know better....
Only people that have had no experience with private insurance would say something so ignorant.
I, too, would like to get the quality health care one can only get from the VA.
We are getting what we’re paying for: it takes a lot of intervention and advanced prescription drugs to keep unhealthy fat asses from dying while they slowly kill themselves with carb loading, trans fats, and booze. It’s not free.
It's not even that. Big government types have been solving the problem of high healthcare costs for decades, and each time they implement a new solution the costs go even higher.
Hey but remember my mask protects them, their unhealthy lifestyle protects me.
Post the stats for average BMI and type 2 diabetes rates for these same countries.
Those and mental health (e.g. addiction, poor self-control, impulsivity, anxiety, depression, personality disorders, etc)
If we remove all meds from the market that are prescribed for chronic illnesses self-inflicted, the morbidity and mortality epidemiological curves would look far different. We are keeping people alive that evolutionary principles would have removed decades ago.
Very good point. It's also worth remembering that the USA has led the world in medical breakthroughs - both surgical procedures (and related equipment/tools) and medicines for decades. The rest of the world often enjoys the fruits of our system's expensive labors. Having said all that - I wish we could emulate Switzerland's approach -- which is an individual mandate for a basic plan. Their low income citizens get taxpayer support to pay for the basic plan. All insurance companies must accept applicants regardless of health status (and those companies participate in an reinsurance pool to protect themselves financially - since the prices for the basic plan are not allowed to provide profit for the insurance company - only expenses). The insurance companies make money selling the optional supplemental plans. All doctors are in private practice. Consumers have skin in the game. People are not tied to employer-provided health insurance plans.
Switzerland's healthcare is among the best in the world. It's also expensive - but not as expensive as in the USA. I also realize we're not Switzerland - which is a small, wealthy (wealthier per capita than the USA), culturally cohesive country.
Your faulty assumption is that health outcomes are purchased with healthcare expenses. They are not.
“The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.”
― Thomas Sowell
Stuff has to be rationed somehow because there just isn't enough for everyone. Usually that's done with prices.
When government is divvying stuff out, there still isn't enough for everyone. So that means bureaucrats ration stuff out based upon political considerations, and they take their sweet time about it because fuck you that's why.
No, government health care isn't a panacea, and considering how everything government runs turns to shit, I really don't want all decisions being made by bureaucrats.
Joe Friday, go fuck yourself.
Joe:
Every health care system has rationing of care. That is indisputable. In a purely free-market approach, that rationing takes place by economic considerations, ability to pay. But in state-run health care systems, that rationing takes place by political considerations. By who the powers-that-be in charge decide on what's important.
Would you rather have your own health care decisions decided by the morons elected to office, or by you?
Joe knows all. We should put him in charge.
And when we had a market approach to health care, the working poor were provided. Because it was cheap enough. The costs are astronomical today because of government "fixes" to the costs.
Some people are always lost in the cracks, but premium vouchers can easily cover them without breaking the whole system.
You actually said something sensible
Yes, poor people would rather have healthcare decisions made politically rather than through markets. It’s entirely rational at the individual level, even though it is guaranteed to fail at the societal level.
"But in state-run health care systems, that rationing takes place by political considerations. By who the powers-that-be in charge decide on what's important."
It may be that in a state-run health care system such as the NHS in the UK rationing "takes place by political considerations" (though you would need to document that), but no one is proposing anything like a state-run health care system for the U.S.
Most single-payer systems are not "state-run health care", but are state financed. Health care, and health care decisions, are still primarily made by providers who are not state employees -- in the Canadian system, for example, rationing decisions are made by medical boards and committees, and judging by outcomes are as good or better than the U.S. system.
And in the USA the same decisions are made by your health insurance company.
Often, but I and my staff spend a good bit of time every day persuading medical insurers to cover this or that procedure, medication, etc. Otherwise I am not sure what your point is. No healthcare system allows anything, any time, for any reason. The boogeyman that is usually trotted out is that we would never want some government to decide what can be done or covered, but in my experience over decades, insurance company gate keepers are even less rational, since they are driven exclusively by profit-seeking.
Joe, how can we pay for universal healthcare when Russia poses an existential threat to our liberal democracy? Yes, healthcare for all Americans would be nice but I'd rather spend that money on Javelins for Ukrainians.
US healthcare spending (by the economy, not by government) is vastly larger than defense spending. So yeah, free government healthcare would doom authoritarian plans for massive military spending increases.
But that's no excuse not to cut military spending while we can. We still have the largest military in the world, by a huge margin. We don't need that much to defend ourselves.
These stats don’t take into account some important aspects of quality. For example, in April I waited six weeks to get a hip replacement. In Canada the average wait right now is 12 months.
My mother has been trying for a year now to get a hip replacement and still doesn't have a date, thanks to COVID (or more accurately the government's reaction to COVID) fucking everything up.
Great. But if you are poor in the US, you aren't ever getting a hip replacement.
We don't have waiting lines here because people without insurance are completely shut out of health care (unless they go to the emergency room)
Free government healthcare is not about helping the poor, it's about free healthcare to the middle and upper classes. We could provide insurance premium vouchers to the poor for the merest fraction of what Medicare For All would cost.
No system can provide expensive procedures to a large percentage of the population who aren’t paying enough into the system to cover it. IT’s basic math.
That is not true at all.
If you are poor and need a hip replacement, or cataract removed, we will do it under the Medicaid system.
Come to the Broward Health Care district in Fort Lauderdale and we will get you in the Medicaid program and a spot on the operating room schedule in less than a month.
And you might get me as your anesthesiologist!
This was a reply to Jeremy R
This is also why Canada’s survival rates for cancer and heart disease have traditionally lagged far, far behind the US.
Not true according to worldpopulationreview
"In Canada the average wait right now is 12 months."
There is a large standard deviation in the Canadian case -- the recommended wait time for a hip replacement is 6 months, and 70% of cases meet that. It's the other 30% that drive up the average (mean) wait time, and on a case-by-case basis those waits might be rational. The simple statistic fails to distinguish patients who are significantly impaired versus those who are at stage 1 of hip deterioration. [Last I checked the average (mean) wait time was 41 weeks, which is about 10 months, not 12, but those data could be out of date.]
Our healthcare is so expensive because of the stupid way we do insurance and billing, not because prices aren't fixed by the government.
is there any other product or service where it is literally impossible to get someone to tell you how much it will cost?
That shit enrages me.
We are getting what we're paying for. All your statistics show is that those other countries are free-loading off the investments in care and research being funded by US consumers.
The country rankings shared by Joe Friday are not good indicators for anything except for politics.
Why?
The rankings here are based off of people filling out a survey and their perceived satisfaction with their healthcare options and not actual outcomes, quality and availability of health and or healthcare.
A better metric to measure the healthcare between countries is to account for positive change from expected outcomes from before and after healthcare is applied. These metrics show that the US is typically top 3 country in most areas.
How do I know this? I am a doctor or pharmacy and was taught those rankings in class and looked into them afterward.
Medians? Means? What's the difference anyway?
-New Jersey Commission on Rationalizing Health Care Resources: Final Report, Jan. 2008
Ok, GTFO. You’re too stupid to have this conversation. So best you toddle off to your next commie meeting.
Well, we dont do it that way here. Best get yourself citizenship elsewhere and GTFO
You wont be missed
How about including number of people serviced? If you open up your healthcare system to the entire world and they aren't paying into it, then no matter how much you spend on it, you aren't going to get good service.
I'm on NHS here, wife has been in pain for 4 years now appointment spread out months apart, missed appointments because they didn't send a letter out. It's an utter shambles. Great if you break an arm or leg or have something routine, but then simple insurance can cover that.
No copays means AE has everyone from lost fingers to kids with headaches and the doctor is closed. I had severe appendicitus, went in at 8pm, finally seen at 11pm, after a couple of xrays, was left unattended in a corner with no observation, it could have ruptured and I could have died.
To quote my uncle who died of cancer, "The way they hold back medicine you'd think they were paying for it out of their own pockets". I could go on all day about the horror stories.
I had 2 kids in the states, including a 30 day stay in hospital with one, and 10 days in nicu with another. Total cost $15 copay each. I spent more on parking visiting.
The only reason Joe has the opinion he does is because he lacks actual experience of the systems he advocates for.
These countries don’t have “health care prices set by the national government”. What they have is a mandatory, universal base coverage providing less expensive, basic coverage. “Limited” means, among other things: long waiting times, restricted choices of drugs, restricted procedures, using palliative care instead of treatment towards the end of life, making many drugs prescription free/OTC/out of pocket, etc.
Those nations also generally give you the option to have better private insurance if you are willing to pay US-level prices.
What they don’t provide is US-style coverage at a fraction of the cost because that’s impossible. But the lie that people like Clinton, Sanders, and Biden tell you is that somehow they can accomplish that, by “taxing the rich” and increasing Medicare contributions.
If the Biden administration wants Medicare for All with European level costs and prices, it can do that tomorrow without raising taxes or contributions while extending coverage to every American: all it needs to do is dramatically cut costs and services in the Medicare system to European levels.
United States ($10,586) if you don't want to die waiting to see a doctor but I'd be down with a $6,000 option if you agree and want to wait four to six months to show your lump on your breast that grows bigger each day, to a doctor. You are just posting 'numbers' and posting idiotic '...we are not getting what we pay for ...' conclusions that are not reality based.
The US cost problem is due to our "health insurance" which is really prepaid healthcare. It results in everyone spending someone else's money and eliminates market forces which would drive efficiency. Adding Medicare's government price controls would not solve the problem.
"So, it's no surprise that politicians who favor a more active government jumped in with the Affordable Care Act a decade ago and now peddle the idea of implementing government-provided single-payer healthcare" ... "but only so long as it costs nothing."
3rd Party Gov-Gun THEFT is what big government fans are after....
Ironically; They seem too stupid to realize their 3rd Party MASSIVE THEFT is the very reason their *EARNINGS* can't pay for healthcare.....
Remember back before the Nazi-Regime when *FREE-MARKET* doctors would come to one's door for the price of a pizza??? Heck; One doesn't even have to remember history - just contrast and compare to the current dental industry..
There isn't a single Gov-Planned product or service that doesn't pack an astronomically insane price-tag. As others have put quite nicely; It makes no sense to believe a Product + Government is cheaper than just a Product.
But stupid people just keep playing ignorant games hoping someone else will be force by Gov-Gun Theft to pay all their bills for them. Humorously, yet predictably, "Affordable" Healthcare wasn't so "Affordable" after all.
"Remember back before the Nazi-Regime when *FREE-MARKET* doctors would come to one's door for the price of a pizza??? "
Yeah, and tell you, "You have leukemia. There's nothing I can do. You're going to die," or "Sorry, your baby has diphtheria. There's nothing I can do. She's probably going to die." Today both of those would have life saving interventions and they don't come cheap. I agree that government drove up the cost of healthcare, but even in a free market, healthcare would be more expensive.
Like how TV is soooooooooo expensive? Back in the day one had to walk their sorry *ss to who-ever they wanted to entertain or communicate with.. I'd say your belief is shattered and the ONLY reason it's so expensive is because of Gov-Gun Dictation.
Shattered?
MRI's, CAT scans, radiation therapy, chemotherapy, prescription drugs, none of which were available a few generations ago, are not cheap to develop, manufacture and administer. But tell me more about how my belief is shattered because of TV, because I don't get your point at all.
Are you under the impression that the government paid to develop these things?
No. That's not my point at all. I'm under the impression that this contributes to the expense of healthcare to the consumer (patient).
Well one thing is for sure - the Gov Introduced "prescription drugs"..
Humorously before that; they were just "drugs".
That's true. And it adds exponentially to the cost of those drugs.
The occasional cancer treatment in young people isn’t driving up healthcare costs.
What’s responsible for the enormously high healthcare costs in the US is (1) chronic diseases and (2) expensive and pointless end-of-life treatments. Both of those are taken care of by free market mechanisms.
If you’re morbidly obese, in a free market system, you can’t socialize the cost of that, you’ll have to pay for it. And in a free market system, most people would choose to pass on an extra $500000 to their children than waste it on painful and pointless end of life care.
In fact, in a free market system, most medical care would simply be out of pocket, because that’s cheaper than having an “insurance company” provide it; insurance companies would provide actual insurance, namely coverage for expensive, unexpected medical events, priced at the actual risk that you have.
Medicare for All is indeed a bad idea. However, it still makes sense for us Koch / Reason libertarians to support Democrats who claim they want Medicare for All. Because once they get in office they inevitably govern in a way that benefits billionaires like our benefactor Charles Koch. (For example by opening the borders.)
#VoteDemocratToHelpBillionaires
#OBLsFirstLaw
Who cares about sick people? We can always have a Great Replacement of sick or dying workers by adopting an open borders policy.
"The only way to really 'care' is by running around poking Gov-Guns at sick people."; right?, right?? /s
The left is the most ignorant people you'll ever meet about the very existence and process of "Government"....
It's dissonance at its finest; Completely disconnecting the "Gun" monopoly from the equation and pretending the world can't 'care' about anything without a GUN in their face.....
Do you want the same people that handled COVID-19 so well to be your health insurance company?
Boom!
There was a time when physicians turned to the CDC, NIH and FDA for guidance, assuming these govt bodies adhered to “evidenced based medicine”. There was a time.
Sadly physicians are saddled with EMR and a plethora of administrative tasks before, during and after seeing patients. Obama did this with ACA.
It will take a minimum of 2 decades before a new crop of physicians enter the industry, give the Feds the finger, and take matters into their own hands sans CMS. However, in order for medicine to be saved, it requires the active participation of patients. Given the sloth and gluttony that Americans embrace, evolutionary principles will take care of it all in a few hundred years. “my body, my choice”. Uh huh
There are more and more physicians that opt out of the current insurance system, offering fee for service at competitive prices. There are also various organizations that provide alternatives to health insurance.
Have you ever had to deal with a health insurance comany?
You can have it good, you can have it fast, you can have it cheap. Pick any two.
Hard, General; don't forget hard.
And the government will pick for you; good and hard.
Unless the 2 are good and cheap.
No, you can get good and cheap even for healthcare. It just won't be fast. Which means there's a decent chance that you'll die before you turn to get the care rolls around. That may not sound like a "good" outcome but that's not what the metric means. "Good" in this context means that the care if/when it is eventually provided will be good.
The US healthcare systems has no price mechanisms for allocating healthcare to those who need it. So, it doesn’t provide “good, fast healthcare at high costs”, instead it pointlessly oversupplies and wastes healthcare and socializes the costs.
A free market healthcare system would be good, fast, and cheaper what we have right now. Only once you have a system that is at least that efficient do you have to make trade offs like that.
Just for the record, and ignoring the fact that medicare requires you to pay premiums for decades before you can claim anything at all:
It has a $178/mo per person premium (with a few exceptions)
(that is $712/mo for the proverbial family of four)
It only pays 80% of the medical expense
It does not cover dental
it does not cover drugs
It does not cover vision
There is NO annual cap on out of pocket expense
There is NO lifetime cap on out of pocket expense
I am pretty sure that "medicare for all" is actually talking about government takeover of the entire healthcare sector of the economy.
More importantly, the average Medicare patient burns through their earned contributions after 2 routine hospital admissions. Mediare is a terrible idea, Medicaid far worse, both unsustainable financially
And these premiums are only for those earning less than $91,000 per year. The premium can be as much as $578 per month if your income is high enough.
Democrats are arguing for Medicare For All because they think Medicare is popular among people. It is not. People may see it as their God Given Entitlement, but they still see it as a crap program.
Democrats might as well be arguing for VA Hospitals For All.
It is popular with doctors and clinics that rip it off.
It has nothing to do with tradeoffs, you have money and freedom and the gov is against tgat
"Top-notch health care, delivered fast and for low cost, really isn’t on the government's menu."
Um, this ain't exactly on our current medical establishment's menu either.
Don't forget people involvement here also. People expect more than they will pay for or work to achieve. Getting a Covid19 vaccination was one of the easiest things to do to reduce costs, yet many refused. Most got away with skipping the vaccine, but for other they racked up big bills we all paid for.
Irresponsibility is always the side-effect of Nazism (National Socialism)..
Thought we already covered the ground.
“If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free.” -- P. J. O'Rourke
People don't understand how much health care costs. Because we don't directly pay for it. If we're employed our premiums come out of our paychecks before we even see them. And if we opt out we're still not seeing the other 50% that the employer pays.
Medicare For All, or ANY single player plan, would be the single largest budget item in all of recorded human history. Dwarfing all others.
The problem isn't the spending. We spend far more than any other nation on healthcare. The problem is the cost. And the cost has been skyrocketing ever since I was kid. Every "fix" has driven the cost higher.
We fix the cost by getting government out of the system. That's hard because it took up seventy five years to get here so we can't fix it all in one day. But there are obvious places to start. The Democrats don't have a plan. Four years of Trump showed that the Republicans wanted to repeal but had no plan to replace. So one needs to look at Cato and other places for plans.
Tiny ideas: Means test Medicare, provide premium vouchers instead of direct payments, get rid of certificates of need, encourage direct medical care rather than insurance managed systems, etc. When a direct care physician charges a fraction of what an insurance system gets billed, that's bulk of your problem.
Third party payment system may be a tough nut to crack, but we should stop trying to cover it via employment benefits. Provide an equivalent tax break for insurance purchases OUTSIDE of employment. Let me buy a plan and KEEP IT even if I change employers, get laid off, or retire. It's still a third party payment system, but at least I'm paying the premiums. Let groups create their own groups, for purposes of group plans. Why are groups limited to only employees of a firm? Why not church groups, or union groups, or chess club groups, or social club groups, or even neighborhood groups?
California has looked into it and found it would be twice the size of the states existing total budget. but some how claimed it would save money
None of the ultra-liberal states are implementing any sort of single payer healthcare plan. Because they know they would have to pay for it somehow. So the kick the can to the Congress' feet so they can blame someone else for the problem.
The problem isn't the lack of taxes, the problem is that the costs are out of control.
So you prefer Romney's Massachusetts plan
Last year I broke my foot and required surgery. Took all of 45 minutes. The part of the bill for the operating room alone was over twenty thousand dollars. Just to be in the OR for three quarters of an hour. That's like five hundred dollars a minute. The fees for the surgeon and staff and drugs were all on top of that. Five hundred dollars a minute to use a small, dingy room in the hospital basement.
That's what happens to markets that rely on Nazism for funding. There's no accountability.
Put more simply; Bank Robbers don't ask for $1 and leave.
Cato came up with Obama care, a market driven alternative to government treatment.
Remember, the insurance companies are not paying the retail price you see on the bills and the only ones who do are the uninsured. So much for setting the costs The government didn't cause them, they expanded the customer base which should lower costs and it does for Medicare. It pays the lowest for procedures.
Reference for that please.
It was modeled on RomneyCare, a plan to force young people into group plans. So originally a Republican plan. But Cato is a libertarian organization that is in favor of fewer regulations not more, fewer laws not more, less government intervention, not more. So references please.
Cato is on the forefront of opposing the ACA.
https://www.cato.org/cato-handbook-policymakers/cato-handbook-policy-makers-8th-edition-2017/4-repealing-obamacare
It was published by Heritage ~1989; twenty years later they stood in plain opposition to Obamacare.
He mixed up his talking points, which are stupid anyway.
Romney is barely a Republican, and was governor of a near Marxist state.
It pays the lowest for procedures.
Medicare don't negotiate, it imposes. The private insurers are indirectly subsidizing it since the providers and facilities can't thrive on Medicare reimbursement rates absent extreme measures.
Cato is a progressive dumpster. But even Cato didn’t come up with the shitshow that is Obamacare.
And, yes, the government did create the excessive prices that healthcare providers are charging, through regulations and tax policy.
Primarily, the way the US system is set up, customers don’t even see the prices, and there are no consistent prices being charged. That means there is neither a motivation nor an ability for customers to lower spending.
The biggest (but by far not only) consequence is that Americans consume massive amounts of the most expensive prescription drugs and receive large amounts of expensive and unnecessary care.
Brandybuck,
How about medical savings accounts that accumulate if not used.
Like 401 k retirement plans.
My m s a plan allowed me to put money in, but if I did not use all of it, the money went to my employer at the end of the year.
My own hard earned money just disappeared!
It seems crazy that the money does not roll over into the next year so I can accumulate funds for a medical emergency.
Imagine if I put $100 per month in a plan for my newborn.
If she did not use the money, that would be $1,200 accumulating per year.
Pretend she uses $200 per year for well child visits and vaccines.
$1,000 per year for 21 years is $21,000 in her medical saving account.
It really adds up over a lifetime
Amusing to depressing how almost everyone responding my earlier post missed the clearly stated fact that the common practice the rest of the developed world uses to keep their costs so much lower than ours is by having their national government negotiate and set prices with providers. As noted, some have government run health care systems but many do not. Looking at the stats, we aren't getting anything for the extra amounts we pay - and Medicare is more efficient and pays significantly less than private insurance in America because it sets prices for its tens of millions insured.
On the question of preferring making out own medical choices vs government bureaucrat, that's not the reality. The reality is Medicare standard will known vs private insurance bureaucrats looking to save money.
My life long republican mother was on Medicare for almost 20 years and never had medications or procedures turned down. Is know if she did because I was her driver for the last 5 or so years of her life. At one point she was seriously considered for a cutting edge heart valve replacement and was only turned down because the docs thought it too risky at her age. 1
The government did such a great job with our gas prices, I'm sure they'll nail something far simpler like medical care prices.
I'm sure you've been to the DMV before. You wait hours to finally deal with a disinterested asshole who will put you back at the end of the line if you forgot to dot an i.
That's what health care will become if government runs it.
That’s what it is in England and Europe.
> Medicare is more efficient and pays significantly less than private insurance in America because it sets prices for its tens of millions insured.
Medicare only pays for 80% of the bill, the patient is expected to have supplemental insurance to cover the remaining 20%. That's why Medicare looks so cheap to beltway wonks, it's not paying the full bill.
Saying that their costs are lower because “government negotiates prices” is bullshit. Their costs are primarily lower because their government regulated/run healthcare systems provide much more limited coverage and services.
Medicare is a lousy deal for most people. You bet that if I’m overpaying my entire life for that kind of coverage, I’m at least going to demand the paltry return on what I paid in that the government deigns to give me. That is in no way hypocritical. You only think it’s hypocritical because you think of Medicare as some kind of handout from government, instead of a mandatory lousy investment.
PS Thanks Medicare!
For what?
I think he was being sarcastic: Medicare denied his ailing mother a heart valve replacement close to the end of her life. It’s not entirely clear what he was getting at.
But that’s the kind of decision all health insurance systems need to make, public or private. With a private system, however, you get a choice: you can either pay higher premiums to get such useless end of life care if you want, or you can save the money and later decide whether you want to pay out of pocket.
What are our healthcare costs per capita compared with other nations? (Do we know the population of the U.S.). We’re on the decline people. Obesity and all of the major disease that it stems is now the fault of someone else. No personal responsibility, no country.
Lowering medical costs:
1. Tell our doctors they can't make practically double what the next highest paid doctors in any other country make (and be willing to accept the consequences)
2. Tell old people we can no longer pay to keep them alive in perpetuity. The whole premise only worked when the intergenerational pyramid scheme had favorable demographics
everything else is a waste of time
1. Yes
2. Not that simple and many older people don't knowingly choose procedures extending their life in a state of perpetual helplessness
For Middlefinger
Not this one. Damn phone posting!
The next one.
The health care system actually doesn't do 2. When my elderly father (79) got cancer, they didn't do anything for him but let him die. Because they didn't think it was worth the trouble, since he was 79
Yes, and you think that’s wrong?
Why didn’t you pay for the cancer treatment out of pocket?
Many old people choose pointless treatments because they don’t have to pay for it.
If you gave people the actual choice of “spend $300000 for pointless medical treatments that may keep you alive for another six weeks while hooked up to tubes” vs “leave an extra $300000 to your kids”, they would choose the latter. But Medicare and our government-regulated insurance system does not allow that choice.
The only way we stop this it to reduce the democrat population. So start by thinning that herd. Most problems. Including healthcare will be easy to work out after that.
re: "top-notch care, delivered fast, at low cost really isn't on the menu."
That's the money quote that should be at the top of the article and repeated from the rooftops. You can't have everything for free. Governments are not magic. Life involves trade-offs.
We can endlessly debate which trade-offs are least-bad. Or we can let adults decide for themselves.
Here’s a trade off. The lives of Marxists (democrats) for more freedom.
re: "top-notch care, delivered fast, at low cost really isn't on the menu."
Absolutely. You can go live in the UK and get OK care, that you have to wait in a long queue for, but its "free". These people act as if they are going to keep everything as is, you go to the doctor within the week, you get on the surgery schedule right away, you have your procedure done ASAP, but somehow this magic is going to happen for nothing, no cost
When it comes down to it, these countries with "free" healthcare run into the problem that all socialist programs have. When you are told, as an employee, you are going to get this amount of money (that is a much smaller amount) and you have to work this many days per year, human nature kicks in. They start to do things slower, and they try and do as little work as possible. Its unfortunately just how humans operate.
Go to any VA in the country and this is blatantly on display. Cant tell you how many times someone would be on their 3rd time waiting in the pre-op area all day, only to be cancelled at 4pm because the surgeon didnt move fast enough, and god knows when its 4 they are GTFO the hospital. Because they dont work on RVU's, they are straight salaried (and paid way less than a private surgeon). This results in months to year long queues at times to get a needed surgery done. But hey, its free!
Our current system certainly could use some changes. But govt provided medicare for all would be an absolute disaster for the country.
"Three basic options, but you can only have two" is a characteristic of every market service and good. The Left claims there is way around it, or, at least, their preferred mix should be what everyone should want.
The quote is actually wrong. While such trade offs exist in a free market, they don’t apply to the regulated system we have.
We could actually lower costs without decreasing quality or availability because much of the excessive costs in our system ate the result of government regulations.
Given above in my 1st post
When a capitalist like Charlie Munger calls for MFA, we know it’s a controversial topic. This is the point we’ve reached in the U.S.
Add Andrew Yang
Charlie Munger isn’t a “capitalist” in the sense of “favoring free markets”. Wealthy Americans love government interference in markets, government spending, and regulations because it lets them make money.
Munger would likely not have succeeded in an actually free market environment.
What’s with all the hospitals and medical groups constantly remodeling to look like 5 star resorts? Top notch healthcare means the product, not the packaging.
Revealed preferences. Patients have demonstrated a desire to go to nicer accommodations even if two locations are staffed with the same physicians. Plus the docs prefer to practice in a space which is nice and comfortable with amenities, which helps attract the ever-diminishing talent.
Plus, they don’t have to pay for it since the costs are socialized.
It’s the same reason college costs are spiraling out of control.
Agreed.
“payments lower than those projected under current law might cause fewer people to enter health care professions and fewer new drugs to be developed."
This is false. The number of doctors is artificially capped by the AMA. What would happen is that the current doctors would retire early because they already made their money. They would be replaced by doctors with lower expectations. There are lots of really smart people in the US (and abroad!) for whom medicine would remain one of the more lucrative options.
As far as new drugs. I don’t know. The longer I spend in Pharma the more I think there is approximately zero correlation between investment and actual market opportunity. The ones who invent the drugs aren’t the ones to sell them.
Yes, both healthcare and Pharma are government-created oligopolies, which is one reason they are so expensive.
The US pharma industry is incentivized to create useless, expensive, often harmful, patented variations of existing drugs because they can be used to extract extra money given existing healthcare regulations. In a free market, most diseases would be treated with generics and drug companies would work on more treatments for diseases that are currently untreatable.
But government did such an amazing job during covid!
Like we need these same faggots running anything else. Imagine a thousand mini Fauci’s running all our healthcare all the time.
yes, but only after the administration changed.
There is nothing but delusion when it comes to Americans talking about medical care.
Govt already covers the two most difficult demographics - thse who the sickest/oldes and those who are the poorest.
Govt already extracts roughly the same amount to cover those two groups as other countries do to cover the entire population.
For reasons that are really important but that we don't care about, everyone else can figure this out (and most have a healthy high quality private system as well). We can't figure anything out and don't want to even think about it. And yeah that's full DeRp
Now that we have fixed this problem with 'Obamacare' is it too late to impose a Cuban style health care system on all Americans which clearly (to Michael Moore at least) is hands down the greatest health care system in the world.
The problems with our "health care" system go much deeper than either the advocates of M4A or free markets care to address. Goldman Sachs summed it up quite nicely back in 2018:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-patients-a-sustainable-business-model.html
Simply put, so long as remuneration for health care treatment is based on treatments delivered rather than outcomes, we will continue to have a failing system.
The free market is only going to be a viable if it is FORCED to change its business model. An addicted client base is much more profitable than a client base who receives treatment once & then "never returns." It's the same reasoning behind why we don't have light bulbs that last 100 years, why modern refrigerators don't last nearly as long as refrigerators made in the 1950s & why almost nobody drives a Tucker.
lol... Conspiracy #1353243252... The free-market purposely makes crap that breaks down...
I suppose that could be true for really stupid people who never learn anything. Ya know; like the same kind of stupid people who make excuses why a free-market wouldn't work.