Mike Pence: 'Trump Is Wrong. I Had No Right To Overturn the Election.'
Republican party officials voted earlier on Friday to censure Reps. Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, the only two Republicans participating in the investigation of the January 6 riots at the U.S. Capitol

On the same day that the Republican National Committee (RNC) officially condemned two of the GOP's most prominent critics of former President Donald Trump, Trump's vice president issued his most direct rebuke of his former boss' attempt to undermine the 2020 election.
"President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election," Mike Pence said Friday while speaking at an event organized by the Federalist Society, a conservative legal group.
"President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election," said a defiant @Mike_Pence. pic.twitter.com/dfTMXCNpvQ
— Mediaite (@Mediaite) February 4, 2022
Pence appeared to be responding to a statement made earlier this week by Trump, who claimed that congressional efforts to reform the process by which electoral college votes are certified was evidence that Pence could have "overturned the election." Trump is probably wrong about that, though the law is somewhat vague (hence the ongoing, bipartisan effort at clarifying it).
But Pence did not stop there. He went on to say that "there's nothing more un-American" than to have "one person choose the president." It was a clear shot at both his former boss and the party leaders who continue to coddle Trump's delusions about the past election: Democratic legitimacy must be bigger than any one person.
Those same party officials voted earlier on Friday to censure Reps. Liz Cheney (Wyo.) and Adam Kinzinger (Ill.), the only two Republicans participating in the investigation of the January 6 riots at the U.S. Capitol. In a statement, RNC chairwoman Ronna McDaniel said Cheney and Kinzinger "chose to join Nancy Pelosi in a Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens who engaged in legitimate political discourse that had nothing to do with violence at the Capitol."
The twin moments on Friday afternoon point to the ongoing turmoil within the Republican Party, which is at least partially held captive by Trump and his most ardent supporters despite—or perhaps because of—the former president's loss in 2020. They also point to the fact that the party isn't wholly owned by the former president, at least not as long as prominent Republicans are willing to say things like "Trump is wrong."
As the party looks toward the midterms this year and the soon-to-follow start of the next presidential nominating process, it seems to be torn in two. One faction—which includes Cheney, Pence, Kinzinger—is committed to upholding the basic principles of democracy, acknowledging that Republicans will lose elections sometimes. The other is committed to Trump's grievances, no matter how vacuous or self-serving, about the 2020 election.
Pence has criticized Trump's election interference in the past, but never as starkly as he did on Friday. A few days before the chaos of January 10, 2021, Pence told reporters he did not agree with Trump's legal acolytes who believed they had found a loophole to allow the vice president to throw out the legitimate electoral votes. In June, Pence went a bit further by suggesting that he would likely "never see eye-to-eye" with Trump on that issue.
Pence is a broadly well-liked Republican who successfully navigated the chaos of the Trump years and emerged from it as one of the strongest non-Trump candidates for 2024. His willingness to take a strong stand on this vital issue is as praiseworthy as it is politically risky, and how the rest of the Republican Party responds to his comments on Friday will tell us a lot about the extent to which Trump continues to hold the party in his thrall.
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The law is vague, therefore Pence may be wrong.
"...Trump is probably wrong about that, though the law is somewhat vague (hence the ongoing, bipartisan effort at clarifying it)..."
So we start with the fact that Trump might have been correct and then follow up with:
"...But Pence did not stop there. He went on to say that "there's nothing more un-American" than to have "one person choose the president..."
Given the fact that Trump has been the constant subject of lies the entire time he was in office, I'll want to know *EXACTLY* what he said, no
The Constitution is vague. That's why "strict construction" is such a bad idea.
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There is nothing vague in the Constitution relating to the VP role in the EC vote.
"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted". That is the extent of the role of the VP.
But a strict constructionist might say "there is nothing to prevent the VP from entering forged certificates before counting".
No. They would not say that. Crazy nuts would say that.
And the GOP is now run by those crazy nuts.
Which is why I'm voting for Deez Nuts.
It is amazing how dumb you are. Look at the comments from the gop after j6 in the house and senate. They did not say trump was right. Youre so fucking deluded trying to rationalize your preference for Biden still.
I looked; that was brandSHIT, brandySHIT, still trying to justify his assholic partisanship and his TDS.
Brandyshit asshole, if I ever meet you at some gathering, believe me you will have a TON of assholery to answer for. Be ready to justify being the asshole you are.
Turd lies; it’s all he ever does. Turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
Turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit and a TDS-addled asshole besides.
A few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. Rather than follow the will of Reason’s staff, you resurrected that identity and continue to post here. A decent person would realize how abhorrent this behavior is, burn the SPB identity and return under some new handle. While that wouldn’t change your despicable appetites, it would at least respect a community’s wishes to not mix with pedophiles. But since you have no shame, the only thing I and others can do is point out your past behavior rather than converse with you.
You’re a pedophile. Kill yourself.
" The law is vague, therefore Pence may be wrong. "
Is that (1) an Ave Maria or Regent law degree talking, (2) something you think you remember from a discount homeschooling outline, or (3) what you heard on Fox, NewsMax, or One America last night?
Stand aside, bigoted right-wing clingers, and let your betters handle this.
No, we’ll take care of your kind soon enough. Is there a particular landfill whereyou would like to be deposited?
If the law is vague, it’s the law that’s wrong. Not Pence.
No person may be the judge in their own case. That's as bedrock as law gets. Pence was on the ballot, he cannot lawfully have the power to adjudicate that election.
President Trump is wrong
The Con Man is always wrong, Mike.
Remember how he kept saying he eliminated ISIS? Well, Biden just ordered the extermination of their leader.
The Con Man didn't get anything right about COVID either. He also said he would eliminate the deficit but instead he increased it six fold after Obama cut it by 2/3.
467,000 jobs added according to BLS today. Trump had the worst jobs record in history.
Trump did support tariffs, asset confiscation, and eminent domain, never finished that stupid fucking wall that he promised.
He did seem to grasp Twitter but then got kicked off that.
100% failure.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a TDS-addled asshole and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
You resent the hell out of the fact that many other people are flat-out, better, more honest people than you are, right? More “live and let live”, and WAAAY less authoritarian?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-love-and-war/201706/why-some-people-resent-do-gooders
From the conclusion to the above…
These findings suggest that we don’t need to downplay personal triumphs to avoid negative social consequences, as long as we make it clear that we don’t look down on others as a result.
SQRLSY back here now… So, I do NOT want you to feel BAD about YOU being an authoritarian asshole, and me NOT being one! PLEASE feel GOOD about you being an evil, lying asshole! You do NOT need to push me (or other REAL lovers of personal liberty) down, so that you can feel better about being an asshole! EVERYONE ADORES you for being that asshole that you are, because, well, because you are YOU! FEEL that self-esteem, now!
Trying to change the subject I see, trollboy.
When Sevo the Pedo repeatedly re-posts its regurgitated moronic lies, Sevo The Peo BEGGINBG for attention for Sevo the Pedo brainless hissy fits... The Sevo the Pedo DOES become the topic! As does brainless and evil tribalism!
Accordingly...
Mission accomplished! I’ve now shown yet AGAIN that the hordes of small-minded “conservatives” here on these comment pages are intellectually, morally, and spiritually bankrupt! For lack of ANY factual or logical and benevolent-minded response, they variously resort to endlessly repeated lies, grade-school-level vapid insults, and even stoop so low as to encourage the smarter and more benevolent posters to commit suicide! They are indeed vapid and vile vipers!
I for one can’t STAND the idea that a casual reader here of a libertarian news and commenting site would read the vapid and vile comments, and conclude, “Oh, so THAT’s what libertarians are all about!” No, it’s just that libertarians (and VERY few others) still believe in free speech, so the troglodytes come HERE, where their vile lies & vapid insults will NOT be taken down!
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
In conclusion, troglodyte Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, thanks for helping me to prove my points!
Sevo is telling the truth you retarded troll.
Oh, and capslock isn't actually cruise control for cool, Sqrlsy.
I'm assuming that the TDS-addled spastic asshole defending his pedophile BFF?
Yeah, the fascist twit is calling you a pedophile because his pal Buttplug got called pedo for posting childporn links.
Zero logic, but that's Sqrlsy for you.
Claim someone else did what the asshole BFF was shown to do!
TDS-addled spastic asshole is spastic and an asshole
Standard issue leftist projection.
What happened to your first account?
Why is oil at $92 today?
Good question, since US oil companies pumped more oil in 2021 than they did in 2019. Source: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=A
Whoops, the insults are coming your way for posting a fact contrary to Trump fan's lies.
You missed chumbys question. What happened to your first account shrike?
Did you take a break from spanking it to child rape videos to come bother the adults here?
EdG deserves all the insults he gets. As do you, demfag.
Bad answer: he market discounts the future and Biden has consistently pitched cutting oil and gas drilling.
Either you are not smart enough to know that or your just some TDS-addled asshole.
EdG is a totalitarian leftist scumbag who supports systemic child abuse, and needs to be yeeted out of existence
Not surprisingly, he's also stupid as a random hand-full of dirt; goes together, see turd, molly, Joe, Tony, the lot.
Demand is high. Do you think you're asking a trick question?
It is not because "Biden won't let us drill" like the lying scumbag wingnuts say:
EIA expects shale to drive record U.S. oil production in 2023
https://www.worldoil.com/news/2022/1/12/eia-expects-shale-to-drive-record-u-s-oil-production-in-2023/
(in before some Trump loving dumbass says 'WHAT ABOUT THAT KEYSTONE PIPELINE!")
You said $60 was the peak.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Sevo the Pedo regurgitates endlessly recycled grade-school insults; it’s all that it ever does.
Shut up pedo apologist.
A few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. Rather than follow the will of Reason’s staff, you resurrected that identity and continue to post here. A decent person would realize how abhorrent this behavior is, burn the SPB identity and return under some new handle. While that wouldn’t change your despicable appetites, it would at least respect a community’s wishes to not mix with pedophiles. But since you have no shame, the only thing I and others can do is point out your past behavior rather than converse with you.
BTW, if the lying pile of lefty shit includes numbers, they are either outright lies or cherry-picked such that they bare no resemblance to what turd claims.
turd lies; it's all turd ever does.
Have you gotten too old to wander around the Tenderloin, Sevo?
turd is a pathological liar and a TDS-addled asshole, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
BTW, in what passes for turd's brain, his comment about me wandering the tenderloin is considered 'clever' as opposed to just plain stupid.
Sevo the Pedo prefers the tenderest loins of the youngest toddlers that Sevo the Pedo (AKA SmegmaLung) can find!
That’s embarrassing even for you.
The TDS-addled spastic asshole is not intelligent enough to experience embarrassment.
Hey Smegmalung!
Don’t you have more important things to do, instead of thread-shitting here? As San Fran’s foremost homeless hobo, couldn’t you be doing your “squeegee” racket, fighting with the other bums, pooping in the streets, and yelling insane, deluded insults at passers-by?
Smegmalung’s next gig in Gay Ol’ San Fran: Burglary, which San Fran’s media suggests should now be tolerated!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/san-francisco-chronicle-ripped-for-asking-if-residents-should-tolerate-burglaries
San Francisco Chronicle ripped for asking if residents should 'tolerate burglaries'
Next on the Hit Parade for the San Francisco Chronicle: asking if residents should tolerate (even celebrate maybe?), not just burglary, butt also 'child buggery' by Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, AKA “SmegmaLung”.
Look at the retarded trollboy try to misdirect. Fuck off, troll.
The TDS-addled spastic asshole trying to keep his pedophile BFF from being called on his bullshit?
Not at all surprising.
just seeing if the account is working
“Those same party officials voted earlier on Friday to censure Reps. Liz Cheney (Wyo.) and Adam Kinzinger (Ill.), the only two Republicans participating in the investigation of the January 6 riots at the U.S. Capitol.”
No mention of why they’re the only Republicans on the committee, Boehm?
They're the only two Republicans with any testicles?
Liz has testicles?
Probably
That’s why Tony likes her.
I've just had a rare after-work coffee, so if you want me to explain the concept of irony to you, I'm game.
Go ahead. I'm looking forward to this.
😉
Hey White Mike, you can give us your definition too, if you want.
Stop lying. We all know you don’t have a job. Other than your volunteer work licking the floor clean at your local bathhouse.
Dick Cheney.
Balls Cheney.
Be more genital with poor Tony.
That was being too hard on Tony?
Maybe a tad crotchety?
Not nearly assholish enough.
This thread is tainted.
What do you know about testicles?
He knows how they taste.
Who knows more of testicles than I? Horse testicles and fire testicles, testicles made of gold with gemstone eyes, testicles carved of cedar wood, testicles chiseled into mountains, testicles of empty air . . . I know them all. When men see my testicles, they pray.
I bet.
That’s nuts!
You walked into that one Paul.
You love them: like you, they are war mongering totalitarians.
They were appointed as democrat members. There is no representation from the minority party of the house. The committee is acting against established House rules. Their depositions are not legal per their rules which requires agreement from the senior sitting member of the minority party appointments.
The GOP, led by McCarthy, decided to take the ball and go home rather than play a fair game. A truly bipartisan commission had been negotiated and voted for by 35 (I think) Republicans, but McConnell gambled that resisting any such commission would be better politics than revealing the truth. When that original deal fell through and House Democrats set up a committee of House members instead, McCarthy wanted to put idiots involved in the Big Lie on it. That is exactly what is meant by a "poison pill", and there was never any chance that Dems would go along with that.
So, Cheney and Kinzinger agreed that the truth was more important than protecting Trump and GOP figures that sided with him and still owe fealty to him. It is just way too rich for JesseAz to talk about rules and legality regarding this committee. He'll never admit that Trump plotted a self-coup and that over 100 Republican Congressmen went along with it.
Oh, goody! More steaming piles of lefty shit from a steaming pile of lefty shit.
Hint steaming pile of lefty shit: Assertions from steaming piles of lefty shit convince only other steaming piles of lefty shit.
Fuck off and die.
Is this JasonAZ's evil twin?
Pretty sure it's nothing other than one more steaming pile of lefty shit.
The asshole has shown up recently with nothing more to add than what you see here.
The majority party (Team D) did not allow the minority party (Team R) to choose their members to represent them on the Committee, in plain contravention of the rules of the House. That is a big part of the problem here. When you deliberately break the rules, you can expect the other side to break rules, too. That is how politics works.
When you deliberately break the rules, you can expect the other side to break rules, too. That is how politics works.
This wasn't about rules. "Team R" was going to put two performance artist Trumpsters on the committee, one that clearly had involvement that the committee would want to look into himself. That clear attempt at sabotaging the committee showed that rules or not, they didn't want the committee to work and do its job. When the one side is blatantly going to use and manipulate the rules disingenuously to subvert the other's intent, don't be surprised when that other side won't play along. Politics works that way, too.
Ideally, everyone would adhere to both the spirit and letter of legislative rules and not play power politics when something of essential importance like this is at stake, but that isn't the world we live in.
LOL as opposed to Nancy Pelosi, who totally has nothing to hide about Jan 6.
I’ll give you credit for being consistent Tony. Consistently ignorant, but consistent none the less.
Democrats showed their appreciation to Kinzinger by gerrymandering him out of a district.
They are the only Republicans on the committee because the others nominated to be on it were going to sabotage the investigation.
Sabotage the Democrats kangaroo court? Quelle horreur.
Probably going to ask for crazy shit like evidence and precedent.
No. They were going to just sabotage it. They do not care one bit about getting to the truth. You don't put people on a committee to investigate a coup that were involved in the coup
The truth? Like Pelosi and Capitol police using sovereign immunity to hide communications about security plans?
Or hiding all the video. If it was such a crazy riot, wouldn't they be showing the footage non-stop?
No, instead you stuffed it full of people who lied about Sicknick and put on a big Horst Wessel funeral, and lied about zipties, and invented smeared poop, and molotov cocktails, and protesters carrying firearms, and lied about FBI involvement, and stifled the investigation into Babbit's death, and ringed the Capitol in troops and barbed wire, and built a wall around the Whitehouse, and held a military purge using J6 as an excuse.
Those are the fascist twits you lying fucks stuffed the commission with.
MollyGodiva
February.4.2022 at 8:03 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
No. They were going to just sabotage it.
If I had Molly’s psychic ability, I’d be making money on sports gambling, not acting like a lefty asshole in a libertarian comment section.
And, if the steaming, lying pile of lefty of lefty shit ever tried sports gambling, the steaming, lying pile of lefty of lefty shit would learn that even that takes some level of intelligence far beyond what MG ever hoped to achieve.
MG? Fuck off and die; your family will be proud and happy, asshole.
R Mac...If I had her powers of prognostication, I would buy mega-millions and powerball tickets. 🙂
It won’t matter. You people will keep pushing until Americans get rid of you. I’m sure you’ll be like Sarc when he can’t afford his booze when your back is against the wall.
I know. They dared to ask why Pelosi refused to utilize the national guard and troops trump had authorized to be present at j6. Can't have real answers can we. Has to be a sham political investigation.
Less than 10% of subpoenas from the committee went to people present at the Capitol that day.
That’s not how this works, shit for brains.
Congress isn't supposed to be doing investigations.
Pence is a broadly well-liked Republican who successfully navigated the chaos of the Trump years and emerged from it as one of the strongest non-Trump candidates for 2024. His willingness to take a strong stand on this vital issue is as praiseworthy as it is politically risky
Define politically risky.
Do you mean risky for a man who was already targeted by his own political base for hanging?
LOL
Pence never had a political base. The highlight of his career was the call from Trump.
Define politically risky.
Contradicting Trump.
Remember folks. Sarcasmic totally isn't a Democrat. Don't dare call him one.
The real issue here deals with sarc's ability to mimic a human intelligence.
sarc fails.
Fuck off and die, sarc; make your family proud and your dog happy.
Hey Otis, get back to your drinking. Andy’s jail awaits you. So you can sleep off all that hobo wine.
I predict it won’t cost him anything politically.
Because contrary to TDS sufferers beliefs, it’s not the going against Trump that puts you in the crosshairs.
Tanking his future as a Presidential candidate or any other prominent Republican office.
He never had any future as a presidential candidate. The man is way too boring.
VP Pence lacks charisma, you're right about that. What he does have is integrity, quite a rare quality in Washington DC. I don't have a problem with what he actually did, which was follow the law (as he understood it at that moment in time).
A POTUS Pence via election was never in the cards. He did Ok as governor. A good second banana IMO, but I don't think he would be any great shakes as POTUS. My view is he would keep the chair warm for the next guy.
I don’t have a problem with what he did either. I think Trump was pursuing a fools errand. But it would have been legal.
A lot of people would appreciate boring.
Why don’t you run then?
“Pence is a broadly well-liked Republican who successfully navigated the chaos of the Trump years and emerged from it as one of the strongest non-Trump candidates for 2024”
Said no one other than Boehm, ever.
Taking a stand. You don't see many Republicans doing that these days. Their platform for 2022, we are not the other guy.
Republicans taking a stand would result in you ceasing to exist.
Shouldn't you be out there murdering progressives?
Go rape your daughter again.
Takes a real piece of shit to say something like that. A real internet tough guy. Because you know damn well that if you said that to any father's face, he'd break yours. And I'm sure that the cops would laugh at you and tell you you deserved it.
You could never rape your daughter. You don’t have one. No one would mate with you. I mean really, who could ever love you? You’re a loathsome bitch. With no point to your existence.
You’re just a failed, broken, unloved drunk. Living in a world that’s better off without you. Do you really have delusions to the alternative? It’s likely that you come here because in your sad, worthless, twisted life, Jesse, Sevo, myself, and the other are the closest thing you could ever have to a friend.
Your existence has no point and is just an embarrassment to behold. Let go of your of your delusions and accept that.
If you think that's equivalent to what I said to Nardz, he is constantly telling people they should be dead because of politics. He should put his money where his mouth is. Fucking coward.
I’ll have to step up my game then. Because you RE a true piece of crap. This isn’t a game, and it’s not academic. People are losing their freedom and having their lives destroyed by your precious democrats.
Anyway, you win the ultimate prize for a troll: Muted by sarc, never to be read or replied to again.
How can you stand by kneeling to democrats?
Nor can you stand when you are bending over to kiss the ex-President's backside.
Don’t bring your fantasies here.
Politically Risky: Being a republican in America who is not a Trump-sinker-swallower who still may have designs on running for some office or other at some point. It's getting less risky, I think, but for some reason people equate not being a democrat with being trumpy. Eww.
EXACTLY RIGHT, Mr. Pence. I wrote about this very thing just today on my personal blog:
https://dave.marney.org/this-has-to-stop-right-now/
"...It saddens me deeply that President Trump is clearly still thinking of running for office..."
Cheers me if for no other reason that TDS-addled assholes are bothered.
BTW, why do you think the world needs the ravings of one more TDS-addled asshole?
So, Sevo the Pedo, WHEN are you going to give us an example of a 1-party state that led to long-term peace and prosperity? Since you SOOO clearly advocate a 1-party "R"-party state?
Orange-dick-suckers will NEVER stop sucking orange dick!
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
Fuck off ᛋᛋqrlsy, you Nazi simp.
So the TDS-addled spastic asshole decided to support one more TDS-addled asshole?
Why is that not surprising?
More evasions from one who can't communicate more than grade-school insults!
WHEN are you going to give us an example of a 1-party state that led to long-term peace and prosperity? Since you SOOO clearly advocate a 1-party "R"-party state?
Kill yourself.
Vulgarly, Insanely, Inanely-Mad SheMale, drinking Vulgarly, Insanely-Mad Kool-Aid in a spiraling vortex of darkness, cannot or will not see the Light… It’s a VERY sad song! Kinda like this…
He’s a real Kool-Aid Man,
Sitting in his Kool-Aid Land,
Playing with his Kool-Aid Gland,
His Hero is Jimmy Jones,
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jim-Jones
Loves death and the dying moans,
Then he likes to munch their bones!
Has no thoughts that help the people,
He wants to turn them all to sheeple!
On the sheeple, his Master would feast,
Master? A disaster! Just the nastiest Beast!
Kool-Aid man, please listen,
You don’t know, what you’re missin’,
Kool-Aid man, better thoughts are at hand,
The Beast, to LEAVE, you must COMMAND!
A helpful book is to be found here: M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439167265/reasonmagazinea-20/
Hey Vulgarly, Insanely, Inanely-Mad SheMale …
If EVERYONE who makes you look bad, by being smarter and better-looking than you, killed themselves, per your wishes, then there would be NO ONE left!
Who would feed you? Who’s tits would you suck at, to make a living? WHO would change your perpetually-smelly DIAPERS?!!?
You’d better come up with a better plan, Stan!
If only he would.
To normal Americans, the purpose of government is to protect individual liberties. I don't want to hear your effing voice, I don't want to have power over you, I don't want you to have power over me, and I certainly don't want to be forced to assume responsibility for you.
DaveM, deep down you're a fascist, nothing more.
One doesn't compromise with people like you, one tells you to fuck off.
To normal Americans, the purpose of government is to protect individual liberties. I don't want to hear your effing voice, I don't want to have power over you, I don't want you to have power over me, and I certainly don't want to be forced to assume responsibility for you.
That all sounds fine, but it is not the way life works. You don't want to hear our voice, but you still want to be able to grab other people's bullhorns to have your say. You say you don't want to have power over me, but you certainly want laws that would restrict my freedoms if my actions would affect you in a way you don't like. And sometimes, your side is happy to restrict people's freedoms even when it doesn't affect them. And you don't want to be forced to assume responsibility for me, but what does that mean? Taxes that go to things that benefit others? We pay taxes that go toward law enforcement, national defense, transportation, and tons of other things. If you don't want to be responsible for me, are you willing to forgo ALL benefits you receive from others that are forced to contribute to them?
All of those principles you stated are conditional. You ditch them as soon as some issue that requires it comes along.
Protecting individual liberty requires collective decision making. Hate that word "collective" all you want, but it is undeniable truth. And consent of the governed as determined by the majority in free and fair elections is how we are supposed to make those collective decisions in this country.
"...Hate that word "collective" all you want, but it is undeniable truth. And consent of the governed as determined by the majority in free and fair elections is how we are supposed to make those collective decisions in this country..."
No, lefty shit bag, you LOVE the word "collective". Fuck off and leave the rest of us alone.
Jason is totalitarian leftist cancer who abuses children.
It means that if you fail to save for your retirement, if you take drugs, if you fail to get medical insurance, if you fail to get a job, you either rot in the gutter or become dependent on charity.
Fortunately, it's not an all or nothing proposition, much as little fascists like you are trying to make it that way.
I'm happy to pay federal taxes for national defense and a small federal government; the budget for that should be less than 5% of GDP, as it was before progressives ran roughshod over the Constitution and dragged us into endless wars.
All the remaining benefits are state and local issues, and people have a choice in them. I would choose to live in a location with like-minded individuals who want police and roads but no other services, keeping taxes and government spending very low.
If you have different preferences, live in a different location.
Nope, it really doesn't, much as little fascists like you can't imagine otherwise.
Noy-Boy-Toy denies the below statement:
"Protecting individual liberty requires collective decision making."
For thousands of years now, armed self-defense on the part of any society, being invaded by a power-hungry neighboring tribe or nation, has HAD to organize its defenses! I served in a fighting force; did you? In any case, HOW could you be so ignorant to assert such a clear lie? Look up "tooth to tail ratio". "According to 2019 statistics, only 10% of the entire military force engage in battle." https://www.thesoldiersproject.org/what-percentage-of-the-military-sees-combat/#:~:text=Unlike%20what%20the%20military%20gives,military%20branch%20you%20are%20in.
A fighter pilot needs about 500 people behind him, I have read!
You going to fight off the invasion with a mob of "do your own thing" self-funded street fighters, each with their favorite pea-shooter and ammo? Guerrilla warfare might HELP, but only AFTER we have been invaded and shot to shit!
YOUR BRAIN has been shot to shit that you would write such utter LIES!!! You should hang your head in shame, and SHUT UP till you can THINK and be honest!
Are you reading impaired? As I was saying, I’m happy to pay taxes for national self defense and leave that in the hands of the federal government. That can be accomplished with about 1% of the size of the federal government.
"Protecting individual liberty requires collective decision making."
Armed collective self-defense is a sub-set of the above, certifiably hyper-partisan douche-bag!
So is voting! So are a LOT of things!
It is! I never objected to all forms of "collective decision making". It is JasonT20 and you who put up that straw man, trying to argue that because there is a tiny set of policies in which we need to make decisions at the national level, all limits on collective decision making are off.
As I was saying: I'm happy to pay federal taxes for national defense and a small federal government; the budget for that should be less than 5% of GDP
That's what the US was founded on, that's what it operated on for most of its existence, and that's what it should return to.
Partisan for whom? I'm not in either party and I don't vote anymore. As far as I'm concerned, Americans can go to hell in a handbasket; it's not my problem anymore.
"Protecting individual liberty requires collective decision making.
...
Nope, it really doesn't, much as little fascists like you can't imagine otherwise."
You flat-out, categorically denied that "Protecting individual liberty requires collective decision making". I corrected you.
Now you say we that we say "...all limits on collective decision making are off." WHO is setting up straw men now?
So you’re saying that the Intergalactic Sub-Smegmonic Boogoidian-Strawmen-Hybrids have deployed booger-beams (Those unspeakable BASTARDS) and have hijacked your tinfoil hat! You have my sympathies, but no more… I have no good advice for you, sorry! Other victims of the Intergalactic Sub-Smegmonic Boogoidian-Strawmen-Hybrids that I have known? They all ended up on Skid Row, and I could NOT help them!
Wait, are you trying to argue that protecting the collective from being invaded is protecting individual liberty?
Yes, DesigNate, that is how it works. If you don't have a collective defense, then everyone is on their own to protect their own liberty with whatever means they have. Anarchy is not liberty.
The only place protecting individual liberty requires collective decision making, is when a COLLECTIVE has decided to abridge liberty. It is really that damn simple.
Eminent Domain? The *collective* decided it wanted a parking lot, and so now someone's property must be confiscated, and the *collective* decides which poor minority is to pay the price.
Common Defense? Only needed when a COLLECTIVE decides to invade.
While it is unfortunate that collectives periodically decide to fuck around with individuals, it isn't a PREREQUISITE to the individual liberty. Even policing isn't a necessary requirement for individual liberty. It definitely makes life in the city easier, but liberty is there first and then the collective decides they don't like protecting their property 24x7 and they outsource it.
Agreed!
Voting, however, is a special case. To fend off domestic despots using democracy, we have to organize the vote! We can't expect to each "cast our votes in our own special artistic-fartistic ways" (written in dog poop on our wall, for example), and get our votes counted in a systematic way.
Yeah, except for the Constitution, that tiny, unimportant product of "collective decision making".
As the Constitution itself was a product of "collective decision making", your position is fatally weak, I'm afraid. Here, let me help: if you unilaterally decide what civil liberties are to be honored and then you force your choices on rest of us, that ain't "democracy".
Good for you, JasonT20!
I've been asking the fascists here the below question... They NEVER answer me, other than to offer insults!
WHEN are you going to give us an example of a 1-party state that led to long-term peace and prosperity? Since you SOOO clearly advocate for a 1-party "R"-party state?
Wanting the Democrats to respect the constitution and wanting them to abandon fascism is not the same as wanting a “one party state”.
MANY "R" partisans desire a 1-party state! I'm not sure if you're one of them, or not! Below is why I say this!
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
Not having ever voted Republican, I wouldn't know.
You say what you say because you are mentally unstable.
The only actual fascists here are douchenozzles like Jason and Tony. Not coincidentally, they’re the only ones that want a one party state that controls all aspects of your life.
Trump wasn't asking for Pence to install him as president, he wanted Pence to throw things back to the state legislatures. Right now, state legislatures have the power to choose electors. State legislators also have the power to craft remedies for the numerous violations of state law that occurred in 2020.
Personally, I think that would have been a bad idea, but it may have been legal, and asking for it certainly doesn't disqualify Trump.
Trump wasn't asking for Pence to install him as president, he wanted Pence to throw things back to the state legislatures.
That's not what he said in that first statement that made all the ruckus. And that wouldn't be constitutional anyway. The electoral votes had already been cast based on the existing laws of each state, on the day designated by Congress. State legislatures have no constitutional authority to change electoral votes after that. And you really think that they should be allowed to? To say, "You know what, we think that the voters of our state were wrong. We should have gone with the other guy, so we'll do what we want instead of what the people voted for." To argue that it was fraud is simply not valid. The legislators that Trumpists wanted to change the outcome certainly would have not been objectively evaluating the crap that Rudy and Sidney Powell were peddling. To pretend otherwise is to insult our intelligence.
If there wasn't anything to contradict Biden's win that could survive the dozens of lawsuits and canvassing boards and everything else that goes into certifying election results, then Dec. 14, 2020 was the final word on the presidential election. Wanting the outcome to be different and being a sore loser doesn't change that.
Here is what Trump said in his January 6 speech:
By the way, Pennsylvania has now seen all of this. They didn’t know because it was so quick they had a vote, they voted, but now they see all of this stuff, it has all come to light. It doesn’t happen that fast. And they want to recertify their votes. They want them recertified, but the only way that can happen is if Mike Pence agrees to send it back. Mike Pence has to agree to send it
back. [...] And many people in Congress want it sent back
Either you're uninformed or you're lying.
Ooh, Pennsylvania saw “all of this stuff”.
Thank you, Donald Trump, for such a concise, powerful argument for why you want ignore the Constitution and have a do over on the elections.
The Constitution leaves the selection of electors up to state legislatures.
Given that in many states, there were egregious violations of election law, legislatures would have been perfectly justified to intervene.
I don’t think it would have been a good idea, but there would have been nothing unconstitutional about it.
Uh huh. Tell yourself that completely ignoring the will of the voters is in any way compliant with the Western democracy that the Constitution is built upon.
The US Constitution does not set up a "Western democracy". The Constitution never envisioned presidents being picked according to the "will of the voters". Presidents were supposed to be picked based on the deliberations of the electors, but ultimately, how the system operates is up to each state.
States have chosen for electors to be bound by the votes in their state, but that's something state legislatures are free to change. In fact, the popular vote compact, passed by several states, does exactly that.
If the US were just like any "Western democracy", I wouldn't have emigrated here. Just look at the kinds of shitholes Western democracies are turning into in Europe.
Damn strait!
“but ultimately, how the system operates is up to each state.”
And there is a deep cultural expectation that whatever system a state has, it reflects the will of the majority of the people in that state — because we are part of Western civilization with groundings in Western democracy.
Maybe you don’t get this because you emigrated here from someplace where you didn’t absorb this expectation from the time you were a child.
You are talking about the Constitution, and I’m talking about a level deeper in the cultural expectations the Constitution is built upon.
What you really mean is that you know you’re wrong, and not intelligent or educated enough to construct any real argument. So 8n stead you make up this ‘deeper meaning’ bullshit.
I love that you completely ignore the fact that several states illegally/unconstitutionally changed their voting rules through executive or judicial diktat every single time it is pointed out to you. It’s made even funnier by the fact that you continually harp on “the will of the people”.
Yeah, mike and his cohorts start upon the premise that everything was on the up and up regarding the execution of the “unprecedented” covid election of 2020.
When one starts with that level of blind faith (because their guy won), then I suppose raising the possibility of any hastily enacted fuckery with the process would sound like sour grapes.
Cite?
Trump's usual word salad that day isn't what I was referring to.
Here is what Trump said in a written statement released last Sunday, Jan. 30, 2022:
If the Vice President (Mike Pence) had ‘absolutely no right’ to change the Presidential Election results in the Senate, despite fraud and many other irregularities, how come the Democrats and RINO Republicans, like Wacky Susan Collins, are desperately trying to pass legislation that will not allow the Vice President to change the results of the election? Actually, what they are saying, is that Mike Pence did have the right to change the outcome, and they now want to take that right away. Unfortunately, he didn’t exercise that power, he could have overturned the Election!
Nothing there about "sending it back to the states" there. And you ignored the sentence I wrote after the one you quoted, that even considering that to be his intent, it wouldn't have been Constitutional.
From the 12th Amendment (modifying Article II, Section 1, though the language about transmitting the votes and the role of the VP is identical):
"The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; -- the President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;"
The VP's constitutional duty here is to open envelopes. It switches to the passive voice regarding the counting, so that isn't for him to do unilaterally. And all of this was using the word "shall". How is any of that optional or subject to anyone's discretion?
Trump's bottom line was always that he wanted to be declared the winner, by whatever manipulations would make that happen. He might as well have said, "Fuck the Constitution and the voters, I am President."
As far as I can tell, nothing in that procedure prohibits Pence from saying "I'm not going to open these envelopes yet", for example, to allow the states to resolve legal issues in the state legislatures.
Again, I'm not saying that that's what Pence should have done, merely that it would arguably have been legal for him to do so.
FWIW, I think Biden is the president Americans voted for and Americans deserve. I hope my fellow Americans will suffer the consequences of their idiotic choices to the fullest extent.
As far as I can tell, nothing in that procedure prohibits Pence from saying "I'm not going to open these envelopes yet"
FFS, that's getting into the territory of genies granting wishes. "You didn't say that you wished for a million dollars now. So I really did fulfill your wish when you won the lottery 40 years later the day after being told you have a month to live." Would any lawyer get away with that kind of argument in court, or would 99% of judges be ready to sanction them on the spot?
Again, I'm not saying that that's what Pence should have done, merely that it would arguably have been legal for him to do so.
Who, with any credibility as a legal expert, has actually argued that it would have been legal and constitutional for Pence to do any such thing? You keep saying that without anything plausible to back it up.
"...Who, with any credibility as a legal expert, has actually argued that it would have been legal and constitutional for Pence to do any such thing?..."
The article makes it clear that there is ambiguity, steaming pile of lefty shit.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Fuck off and die.
"...That's not what he said in that first statement that made all the ruckus..."
One more TDS-addled steaming pile of lefty shit lying about 'what Trump said'.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
LOL you might want to go all the way back to 2016 and listen to all the democrats object to the state electors.
All?
ElvisIsReal is trying to equate whatever Democrats in Congress might have cast purely symbolic votes against certifying electoral votes in the past with enough Republicans doing so to make it almost plausible that it would actually reject them. (Since those Democrats never numbered more than could be counted on one hand, versus well over a hundred GOP Congressmen.)
Steaming pile of lefty shit is trying to make sense. And failing.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Yes, I’ve seen the game played many times of ignoring the degree to which one major party or the other engages in a slimy practice when whatabout’ing.
Cite?
Right now, state legislatures have the power to choose electors.
To be clear, state legislatures have the power to set the procedure for choosing electors. Nothing allows them to change anything after the properly chosen electors have already voted on the day designated by Congress. Just basic common sense tells you that election results need to be based on the laws as they exist at the moment of the election. Elections aren't Calvinball.
Trump and the GOP had every opportunity and did challenge various procedures in advance of the election and during the counting. Having courts resolve such disputes is part of how the rules of elections are upheld. They can disagree with the outcomes of those lawsuits if they don't like them, but they have to live with them. They can seek to change state laws in ways consistent with their state constitutions and the U.S. Constitution and federal laws regarding voting rights. But they can't change the rules in order to pick a different winner after the game has been played.
None of that is even the slightest bit disputable. Anyone that ever talks about upholding the "rule of law" should agree completely.
That's a whole lot of bullshit to avoid dealing with the issues at hand.
Were you born a bullshitter or did it take some practice?
JasonT20 is a fascist who believes that the US functions like the Weimar Republic or one of the current, crappy European nation states.
Yeah, right, a fascist who just wrote two eloquent paragraphs about how the rule of law applies to elections.
JasonT20 ignored widespread violations of law in the 2020 election.
Furthermore, fascists have always been big on the rule of law. How do you think Hitler and Mussolini came to power?
Furthermore, fascists have always been big on the rule of law. How do you think Hitler and Mussolini came to power?
Not through the rule of law. I don't know about you, but to me, the "rule of law" is at least partially about accepting what the law, as legitimately passed by the legislature, requires at the moment, even when it goes against what you wish to happen. If you don't like it, then you look for the opportunity to change the law legitimately, rather than ignoring it or changing it illegitimately. I don't know the details of Mussolini's rise to power well enough, but the Nazi's did win some seats in elections (though I believe there was plenty of violence and intimidation to aid them with that), but their take over from there was not legitimate or based on the 'rule of law'. And rejecting the electoral results and keeping Trump in the Oval Office would have been a "self-coup". That is when the national leader, elected legitimately, uses illegitimate means to keep and expand power.
"Not through the rule of law..."
Steaming pile of (TDS-addled) lefty shit hasn't read much history.
Huh? Fascists were well known for keeping informal armies of goons to do their dirty work in quite illegal ways.
If you’ve read any of his posts in the last two years, you would know he is absolutely a fascist.
Given the indisputable fact that elections in multiple swing states seriously violated election laws passed by the state legislatures, it would have been perfectly legitimate for the legislature to craft remedies even if anything would have prevented them from just changing the electors on a whim (which they likely could do as well).
Republicans could (and did) accept the outcome of the election without further disputes as a matter of politics and for the good of the country, but your idea that the 2020 election represents "the rule of law" is utterly absurd. Even by the usually low standards of US elections, the 2020 election was a new low point.
Republicans could (and did) accept the outcome of the election without further disputes as a matter of politics and for the good of the country...
That is some serious gaslighting there. How many Republicans actually accepted the outcome "without further disputes"? What planet do you live on? All the audits and other crap that still has a majority of self-identified Republicans saying that Trump really won don't exist on your planet, apparently. And Jan. 6, 2021 was a normal day with only tourists visiting the Capitol building. The good of the country is not on nearly enough Republican minds. That is what this is all about. Kinzinger is right. This is all a sign of just how batshit insane the GOP has become.
Keep calling me a fascist if you want, despite apparently not knowing what that means. Your projection is showing. You really just don't want elections to determine the government we get if the people you want to run it don't win.
Have any Republicans filed legal cases to alter the outcome of the election after January 6? Can you point to them?
That's an entirely different matter. US elections are clearly shoddy, untrustworthy, and heavily manipulated; that didn't start with 2020, it's been happening for many decades. The idea that US elections are free, fair, and secure is absolutely laughable to anybody who has actually seen free, fair, and secure elections.
Some conservatives foolishly think they can rein this in through audits, legislation, and education. I think too many Americans are too stupid and too entitled to turn the country around. A country filled with idiots like yourself is doomed, and you deserve to suffer the consequences of your choices, good and hard.
That's an entirely different matter. US elections are clearly shoddy, untrustworthy, and heavily manipulated
Right. Because Trump wasn't anointed as the clear winner he was. That is proof enough that US elections are untrustworthy. Having actual evidence of fraud or manipulation, like what would exist when all of those people that rigged it against Trump were prosecuted for their crimes, is unnecessary. All you need to do is believe in something hard enough (and repeat it), and it becomes true!
The idea that US elections are free, fair, and secure is absolutely laughable to anybody who has actually seen free, fair, and secure elections.
I didn't know that you weren't American. What country are you from that you have you seen free, fair, and secure elections, but not in the U.S.? Apparently, in that country (or planet, as I suggested earlier), you don't need to provide specific evidence that elections are fraudulent and insecure enough to think that the results were off by tens of thousands of votes in multiple states each.* You can just keep asserting it on the internet and listening to the pillow salesmen. If other people won't listen to the Truth and believe the lies from the fascist establishment, lamestream media, then that is just more proof of the conspiracy!
I think too many Americans are too stupid and too entitled to turn the country around. A country filled with idiots like yourself is doomed, and you deserve to suffer the consequences of your choices, good and hard.
Finally, we get what you really think. Everyone that doesn't think the same things as you is stupid, entitled, or both.
I have enough self-awareness that I usually recognize what I know and what I don't know. I don't, however, have such large delusions of grandeur to think that I am oh so much smarter than the average bear. Though I will mock people that make a habit of making bold, extraordinary assertions without anything to back them up. (Such as claims of fraud and insecurity in U.S. elections that aren't documented beyond a handful of isolated cases out of billions of votes cast in the last 20 years.) And those that look down on others when they really need to learn to look in a mirror.
*In every other country that holds real elections and not the sham ones that autocratic, one party states run, 7 million votes would have been plenty to show that a national election wasn't even close enough to talk about fraud and not be laughed at. But then, the U.S. Constitution has more than one feature that seemed necessary to get the cooperation of leaders of smaller states that no other country has ever adopted.
"...I have enough self-awareness that I usually recognize what I know and what I don't know..."
No, you don't.
You're but one more lying pile of lefty shit too stupid to remember which lies you told just minutes ago.
Well, the Democrats who had lawyers lined up to challenge the election had Trump won clearly don't think much of our election system either. They were talking pretty openly before the election of plans to do just that. Funny how no one remembers that now.
Have any Republicans filed legal cases to alter the outcome of the election after January 6? Can you point to them?
Funny. Shifting goalposts as well. Now "dispute" only means court cases filed after Jan. 6 that would make Trump President again. Simply saying that Trump really won, like a majority of Republicans polled and quite a few elected Republicans, or even just dodging direct questions so that they don't say that Biden actually won doesn't count as a "dispute" of the election results.
The only problem is everyone has to suffer for Jason’s desire to be ruled by fascist fucks.
The issue is: Nothing allows them to change anything after the properly chosen electors have already voted on the day designated by Congress.
The contention was the electors were not chosen properly, and therefore the votes should have been sent back to the state legislature for fact finding and clarification. That's the political and quasi-legal argument.
I am leery of any effort to 'fix' ECA. The fact is, the law worked as intended, POTUS Biden resides ay 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
So why do we need to fix something that actually worked? I am highly skeptical of those efforts in the current political climate.
The contention was the electors were not chosen properly, and therefore the votes should have been sent back to the state legislature for fact finding and clarification. That's the political and quasi-legal argument.
"Quasi-legal" is already going way too far. There was nothing legal about any of that. When the Florida electoral votes were being disputed in 2000, what happened? Bush and Gore went to court and Gore accepted the finality of the results of the SCOTUS decision when he lost, no matter what he or other Democrats really thought of its ruling. Gore certainly didn't entertain any 'quasi-legal' bullshit theories that he could unilaterally toss Florida's Electoral Votes out. (Florida's legislature was controlled by Republicans anyway, of course.)
Any "contention" that any state's electoral votes were not properly certified needed to be handled the same way. Such contentions needed to go through those states' courts and/or up to the U.S. Supreme Court. Putting it to a partisan vote in Congress or state legislatures is ridiculous on its face. The Electoral Vote Count Act was only intended and could only constitutionally be used to deal with a situation when there was no other way to resolve it if more than one sealed and supposedly certified Electoral Votes were received. (Which, apparently, is the whole reason for the 'fake elector' scheme. They wanted to preserve the option to use those electoral votes, since EVs need to be cast on the same day in every state.) The Constitution does not give Congress, the VP, or anyone else in the federal government any power to directly dispute a state's votes.
It is really telling that the side that freaks out about "federalizing elections" when voting rights legislation is being considered wanted Congress and/or the federal VP to have unilateral authority to discard a state's electoral votes. Even if the argument is to "send it back to the state legislatures" for a do-over, that is still remarkably inconsistent.
There are two errors here:
First, the no one is saying that Trump was asking to be "installed" a President. What Trump did ask was to "overturn the election."
Secondly, even if overturned the election wouldn't be "thrown back to the state legislatures", that isn't the procedure. The procedure was to send the election to Congress. Trump's cronies had already filed 6 "shadow" elector certifications with the National Archives, obviously in preparation to presenting alternate votes to Congress that would have made him President.
What Trump tried to do is nothing short of scandalous. And I even voted for him (once).
"...What Trump did ask was to "overturn the election."..."
One more TDS-addled asshole lying about what Trump said.
Trump's grievances, no matter how vacuous or self-serving
The Trump scumbags set up fake electors and forged election documents with those substitutes:
The 84 people who signed bogus documents claiming that Donald Trump won the 2020 election include dozens of local Republican Party leaders, seven current candidates for public office, eight current office holders and at least five previous state and federal office holders.
Groups from Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin all allegedly sent lists of so-called alternate electors to the National Archives after the 2020 election. The slate of fake electors includes Lou Barletta and Charlie Gerow, both candidates for governor in Pennsylvania; Burt Jones, a candidate for lieutenant governor in Georgia; James Lamon, a candidate for U.S. Senate from Arizona; and candidates for state legislative seats.
https://wisconsinexaminer.com/2022/02/02/trumps-fake-electors-heres-the-full-list/
Unbelievable. This piece of shit ex-president has sealed his fate as the most corrupt ever.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar and a TDS-addled asshole besides, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
What was said happened to be true. They did submit forged documents.
No they didn't. No documents were forged. The documents require a governors signature which was left blank.
JesseAz is actually correct, for once. The documents weren't forged. No, instead, they were fraudulent. (As they presented themselves as being those states' Electoral Votes as certified under state laws.)
No, they weren't fraudulent, either. Filing documents with the Archives isn't fraud. The word you're looking for is "shadow", I think. They were shadow certifications, ready to be used if called for.
Scummy? Definitely. Fraud? Nope.
Isn't it fraud to write that they were the valid and certified electors when that wasn't true? I don't think they can get around it being fraud just because they thought that maybe they would retroactively be officially declared the certified electors. They weren't when they signed it, so submitting a lie is fraudulent, I would think.
Why don't you, just once, deal with reality regarding Trump?
Of course!! Your raging TDS-affliction prevents that.
Will TDS-addled assholes ever grow up? Naah.
How were they forged, Tony?
2 dozen court cases have now ruled on illegal election rule changes for the 2020 election. Discuss.
SPB, a few years back you posted kiddy porn to this site, and your initial handle was banned. Rather than follow the will of Reason’s staff, you resurrected that identity and continue to post here. A decent person would realize how abhorrent this behavior is, burn the SPB identity and return under some new handle. While that wouldn’t change your despicable appetites, it would at least respect a community’s wishes to not mix with pedophiles. But since you have no shame, the only thing I and others can do is point out your past behavior rather than converse with you.
Oh, no, he didn’t!
Hmm, would anyone say that he was a worse VP than our current one? Maybe Trump will bring him back?
At this point Trump's gonna have to move the date of the presidential election up. Does he even have a lawyer? He's certainly not doing anything to un-insurrect.
He should be popular in federal prison. As far as asses that can haul some contraband, he's got a veritable 18-wheeler.
I fell for that one 5 years ago: Trump will go to jail any minute now! For years! With no jail time! For sure this time!
I’m not falling for this again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…
They always go for the big fish last, but I bet you've completely forgotten all the littler fish who've already gone to prison (he pardoned many of them).
Possibly. But given your track record, it’s more likely that you’re wrong again.
Oddly enough, those "little fish" didn't go to prison for anything related to Trump's alleged misdeeds.
On the other hand, while Hillary and the DNC are well protected by the system, their abuse of power, fraud, and incompetence are plain for all to see.
Five unpaid parking tickets and one late library-book return: 6 CONVICTIONS of people who knew Trump at one time or another!!!!
Hot stuff for whatever muted pile of lefty shit just up-thread.
Might have been Dr. Seuss books.
Fffot, as much bullshit as you ready believe, it is no surprise you believe this bullshit too. Also, since there is now a more infectious version of HIV, I’m sure you will stand up and support a nationwide sodomy moratorium, right? And all sexual contact between men.
Just two years to stop the spread.
I fell for that one 5 years ago: Trump will go to jail any minute now! For years! With no jail time! For sure this time!
I’m not falling for this again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…
Any day now, the proof of the rigged election will come out. Pillow guy will file his lawsuit to the Supreme Court and Trump will be reinstalled. Will you really not get fooled again?
You're not good at parody, either, steaming pile of lefty shit.
You know, there is a lot of room between "the election was stolen and Trump will be president" and "this election was perfectly clean and there were no problems worth investigating at all".
'He went on to say that "there's nothing more un-American" than to have "one person choose the president."'
Well, of course. Everyone knows the president should be chosen by a well-funded cabal of powerful people. It's the American way!
The real news is the censure of Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger by the Republican National Committee, which you can read for yourself here:
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/rnc-censure-resolution/58226d40412e4f18/full.pdf
I keep seeing establishment Republicans and outsiders talk about this as if the RNC is being divisive. The fact is that it's Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger who were being divisive. Support for Trump and seeing the January 6 protests as something less than a coup is the centrist position in the Republican party--even among Republicans who would rather see someone other than Trump win the nomination in 2024.
The RNC wants to put this whole thing behind them, so they can move past Trump if need be. It's the outsiders, progressives, and never-Trumpers who won't let January 6 go. Not thinking that January 6 was the most important event of the past two years is mainstream Republican. If Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger want to be divisive by dragging it back out into the headlines every chance they get, maybe they should go be neocon Democrats.
Jan 6 was the culmination of the first coup attempt in US history. The rioters, Trump himself tying to overturn the election, the false claims of election fraud, the forged EC certifications, they are all very serious attempts to destroy our democracy. No one should be "letting it go". It was straight up treason to the Constitution. Of course the Rs want to sweep it under the rug because it is an indictment of their disloyalty to the US.
"Jan 6 was the culmination of the first coup attempt in US history."
You should seek professional help to determine whether you have an anxiety disorder.
Yes. I am very anxious. The Republicans are out to destroy our democracy and there are dicks like you who are ok with it.
They may be able to help you with breathing exercises, meditation classes, talk therapy, or medication if you need it.
Be anxious. Be fearful. And know that your Totalitarian State can't protect you.
You have violated all of our rights too many times to be forgiven. Justice will not be pleasant.
Babbitt got justice.
Now that's moderation. Cops shooting unarmed protestors. Maduro nods in agreement.
Yeah, shooting unarmed protesters is incompatible with a democratic society.
Anyone who claims to be defending democracy by defending the shooting of unarmed protesters is contradicting themselves.
It's indefensible.
There are no rules anymore, and we better realize that real fucking soon.
No greater enemies than leftists exist. Fight for your survival.
I’ve been saying that for t least five years now. I’m glad to see more people on board.
How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what? Police in sufficient numbers and with proper equipment to stop a mob of rioters must use non-lethal means to stop them, if possible. But when faced with dozens of people coming after those you are sworn to protect, and it is just you and a few others and your gun, I am fairly certain you would use the gun too.
One unarmed person was not a threat to that officer. But she was simply the first of potentially dozens of people that he would have been unable to stop any other way.
I'll criticize police all day when they shoot and kill someone unnecessarily. It's possible that they could have avoided using deadly force. But there was a lot more to that situation than it simply being a matter of shooting an "unarmed protester".
"...How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?..."
Steaming pile of TDS-addled lefty shit is now justifying murder as a preventive measure, since some people *might* (later) have done something this asshole doesn't like!
Now, experiencing embarrassment for making a public asshole of yourself does require some level of intelligence, and my guess is this particular pile of lefty shit can't pass that bar.
Hopefully you'll get as much justice as she did one day.
"If only Comrade Biden knew" - Tony 2024
I really hope Tony is either the victims of a home 8n casino by illegals, where they torture him to death. Or runs afoulof BLM/antifa, where they torture him to death. I’m either case, I wan this chilling wails of agony accompanied by the desperate refrain of “ButI’m on your side! I’m one of the good ones!”. As they laugh and torture him even more.
Let’s hope you do too, real soon. I’m sure there’s a Rittenhouse in your future, given what a slimy violent traitor you really are.
She should seek help for her abject idiocy.
In MollyGodiva's meager defense, you said "the most important event of the past two years", I'm dead certain that a vast majority think it's the most important event in the history of the Republic out of hand. If you "drill" them on it, they might concede the Civil War and WWII. Sure, the Whiskey Rebellion established federal taxation for the rest of the Nation's history (so far) and, sure, prior to 2021 Roe v. Wade was the single most important event in U.S. History for decades, but this is Jan. 6th we're talking about. There's a chance that Trump would've declared himself king and left Roe v. Wade directly untouched, like he did in his first term.
Everything else that's happened to this country, even if it killed 3,000 or more people, was just "Some people did some things."
But MollyGodiva! You are of the WRONG tribe!
By THAT accusation, the "R" party power-lusters refute EVERYTHING that you say!
(PS... BURN the witches and the vote-stealing Demon-Craps! So was it Written by the Amphibian People; so let it be done!))
ᛋᛋqrlsy calls people "tribal" while simping for the Democrats and attacking Republicans.
The fascist fuck is his own parody.
WHEN are you going to give us an example of a 1-party state that led to long-term peace and prosperity? Since you SOOO clearly advocate for a 1-party "R"-party state?
No, Crossfire Hurricane predated January 6th-and laid the foundations.
True but not in the way you think.
Republicans had a chance to move past Trump at the second impeachment. They chose not to do so.
There wasn't anything unifying about an impeachment proceeding, and when they voted against impeachment and against a conviction, they voted to move past it.
No. They voted to support Trump's coup.
In the second impeachment of Trump, 197 out of 207 House Republicans voted against impeachment.
In the second impeachment of Trump, 43 out of 50 Republican senators voted against conviction.
If you truly believe that 197 of 207 House Republicans and 43 out of 50 Senate Republicans voted for a coup, then you really do need to seek the help of professional to determine whether you have an anxiety disorder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_impeachment_of_Donald_Trump
Yes. I do believe that 197 and 43 of them supported the coup. The censure vote today just proves that. Republicans are traitors to democracy.
I do believe that 197 and 43 of them supported the coup
Then you're delusional, and people should make fun of you.
Ken...She should change her name to MollyBeria.
For seeing what is plain to see?
Ken, why do you believe there is some kind of inherent numerical upper limit on how many Congress members can exhibit craven spinelessness?
Where’s that plain evidence of a coup?
"Trump's coup"
A bunch of unarmed dipshits taking selfies after being let in by Hill Police is only a coup if what happened outside the Whitehouse in August of that year by BLM protesters was a coup.
Power-lusting Trumptards slobber over the prospect of getting MOAH POWAH for themselves, at ANY costs! Ethics, principles, people, law and order, a decent future for most people… ALL can and WILL be sacrificed for MOAH POWAH for Trumpturds!
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!
The threat is NOT yet over! Not by ANY means!
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/02/politics/donald-trump-doj-republicans-insurrection-january-6/index.html
Trump's $100 million threat to democracy
Fascists like you lust for power.
Right? SQRLSY as a fascist. Pardon me while I larf.
SQRLSY is white knighting for fascist fucks. But then, you know all about white knighting, eh Mikey?
Mike, do you a citation to support that premise? Can you offer any proof?
"...If you truly believe that 197 of 207 House Republicans and 43 out of 50 Senate Republicans voted for a coup, then you really do need to seek the help of professional to determine whether you have an anxiety disorder..."
We are in full agreement that abysmal levels of STUPID allows these steaming piles of lefty shit to believe in boogey men and energy from unicorn farts; there is no treatment for STUPID at that level.
Agreed. Moving past it would have required removing Trump. Republicans fail to see that Trump is the divisive element in their party. Remove him from the equation and get to working for the American people.
Trump was already gone. The impeachment was a fucking joke. Jan. 6 was ugly, but it really wasn't anything. If people hadn't made a conscious decision to gin up outrage and ridiculous claims that the government almost got overthrown, it all would have been forgotten long ago. Just like all the violence surrounding Trump's inauguration. It's a fake outrage that is being kept up in order to persecute political foes. Why do you think they keep saying "insurrection" even though that is an absurd name for what happened that day? They want a hook to try to disqualify people from office based on the 14th amendment. And now that's starting. I very much doubt it will work, but it's pretty disturbing that they are even trying. They are trying to disqualify people from elected office for participating in the planning of a political rally. Think about that for a minute.
There was no coup attempt.
But congratulations on still being the dumbest person to post here.
If there was a real fucking coup, you wouldn’t be here to bitch about it. You would be in a landfill, decomposing.
Democrats has a chance not to behave like corrupt Marxist tinpot dictators at the second impeachment. They chose not to.
"...It's the outsiders, progressives, and never-Trumpers who won't let January 6 go..."
Nor let Trump go; see 6:16 above where a brand new TDS-addled asshole is barging about his blog whining about Trump!
See my comment below.
I think this is a case of the "outsiders" and progressives living in a delusional bubble. Average Republicans simply don't care much about this January 6 shit, but if the media and Trump's opponents keep harping on it, they'll turn January 6 into the most important issue of 2024--and they'll make Trump win not just the nomination but the presidency again in 2024.
I remain convinced that the reason a playboy billionaire casino magnate, from New York City, with a foreign trophy wife and an over the top, obnoxious attitude, became the champion of middle America--in the minds of middle America--was because the news media and the party establishment, in both parties, denounced him in terms that middle America understood. They called Trump a xenophobe, a racist, and a sexist, which is the terms the progressive had been using to describe average Americans affiliated with the Tea Party since 2009. Hearing Trump denounced in the same "deplorable" terms they had been denounced in, they came to seem Trump as one of them. White, blue collar, registered Democrats voted for him in swing states came to believe that if Trump was being denounced by the elitists in those terms, then he must be doing something right!
The same thing can and will happen again, and January 6 could easily become an important part of Trump being reelected in 2024. If the elitists keep denouncing Trump for what he did on January 6, the swing voters in swing states very well may vote for him in 2024--because of what he did on January 6, 2021. If the elitists hate Trump for January 6 so much that they harp on it for two or four years, then plenty of people will come to support Trump just for that reason.
Maybe people should think of it this way: As bad as Trump's approval ratings have been, they've never been as bad as the American people's opinion of the news media. Vladimir Putin probably wouldn't denounce Trump personally because he's smart and he knows that would help him. Emperor Xi probably wouldn't denounce Trump for the same reason. Being denounced by name by people like Putin and Xi is among the best endorsements you can get. The news media is like that--they're the most hated entity by average Americans in polite society. Being denounced by the news media for January 6 may be the most effective endorsement Trump can get.
The media will get Trump renominated if they don't STFU about January 6. I know the reason the Democrats want to keep it in the news. It's because everything else they've got is deeply unpopular. What are they gonna do--run on the Green New Deal? Push for more inflationary spending? Brag about Biden's epic withdrawal from Afghanistan? Talk about how excellent the teachers unions have been during the pandemic? They've got nothing else to talk about but January 6. At least January 6 takes the spotlight off of them and their terrible record.
Ecen then, people will point out how they carried water for rioters in Minneapolis and Portland and Kenosha.
Rittenhouse had a much stronger case for self-defense than Byrd.
“Average Republicans simply don't care much about this January 6 shit”
I think you pulled that claim out of your ass, and all you are really saying is you don’t care.
That’s because you are epically unaware.
Do you have a citation to support your premise?
For those of you too lazy to click the link, this is from the text of the RNC's censure letter.
WHEREAS, The primary mission ofthe Republican Party is to elect Republicans who support the United States Constitution and share our values;
WHEREAS The Biden Administration and Democrats in Congress have embarked on a systematic effort to replace liberty with socialism; eliminate border security in favor of lawless, open borders; create record inflation designed to steal the American dream from our children and grandchildren; neuter our national defense and a peace through strength foreign policy; replace President Trump's “ Operation Warp Speed” with incompetence and illegal mandates; and destroy America's economy the Green New Deal;
WHEREAS, Winning back the majority in Congress, including the United States House of Representatives, in 2022 must be the primary goal of the House Republican Conference (“ Conference”) and requires all Republicans working together to accomplish the same;
"WHEREAS, The Conference must design the strategy to stop the radical Biden agenda and retire Nancy Pelosi, tasks which require that all Republicans pull in the same direction;
WHEREAS, The Conference must not be sabotaged by Representatives Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger who have demonstrated, with actions and words, that they support Democrat efforts to destroy President Trump more than they support winning back a Republican majority in 2022;
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/rnc-censure-resolution/58226d40412e4f18/full.pdf
That's centrist language. That's pushing for unity. Pence and Cheney and Kinzinger bickering over what happened on January 6 is divisive AF. Liz Cheney won't even win her primary to be on the ballot, much less still be in office this time next year--and she's in the most Republican state in the country.
Mike Pence would do well to take that letter to heart. If Mike Pence wants to win the nomination in 2024, it won't be because he wins a shouting match with Trump in the run up to the 2022 midterms. The Republican voters don't want to hear about January 6 anymore. Pence should just avoid the topic.
Whoever wins the nomination in 2024, it'll be because of what Republicans and swing voters in states with open primaries think the nominee will do in 2024. Don't get drawn in to arguments about the legality of something that happened on or around January 6 2021. Tell the world what you plan to do in January of 2024.
The RNC started that letter off with the allegation that the Democrats, "have embarked on a systematic effort to replace liberty with socialism". That's a great way for any Republican to start every conversation. Every time some reporter asks Pence to respond to Trump's allegation that he had the authority to overturn the election, Pence should respond with an answer about how the Republicans should unify to fight socialism.
You did not quote the entire letter. You left off the part where they called the storming of the capital a "legitimate political discourse".
How would that have taken away from my point?
My point was that the Republican National Committee is moving past January 6. Because you can't move past it--and are even dredging it up in the letter--doesn't mean it's an important issue to average Republicans.
I repeat: It's the people who keep bringing up January 6 who are being divisive--not the people who are putting it behind them. And just because Molly Godiva wants to keep bringing it up, doesn't mean Molly Godiva isn't being divisive. You keep bringing it up because it is divisive.
To the average Republican voter in the street, January 6 just wasn't a big deal--and it's the Liz Cheneys that are the outliers.
I don't care what is an issue to the average Republican. Jan 6 was very serious and it should be brought up always and for a very long time. You can not let anyone forget that the Republicans are the party of the coup and they are against democracy.
"I don't care what is an issue to the average Republican."
Then why did you respond to a comment that was all about the Republicans unifying?
Could well be that MG is so fucking stupid that the definition of 'divisive' is lost on him/her.
STUPID really does cover a lot of the inability to grasp basic concepts and this particular steaming pile of lefty shit has shown many times the inability to understand common English terms.
If STUPID does not apply to Molly, pedophile doesn't apply to turd, ignoramus doesn't apply to Tony, and TDS-addled spastic asshole doesn't apply to the TDS-addled spastic asshole.
Yes, the shooting of an unarmed protester was very serious, as is there political persecution of protesters for misdemeanor trespassing and attempts to misrepresent a foolish protest as a “coup”. You just can’t stop lying and propagandizing, can you?
One thing we agree on: Republicans are against democracy, at least the kind of majoritarianism Democrats mean by democracy.
How did the Capitol police, in the moment, know she was unarmed?
Sure, we know it after the fact, but that doesn’t help an officer whose job is to protect the people behind the Speaker’s Lobby door from a violent mob.
Is that the standard now? Police can kill anyone who is trespassing if they aren't sure if they are armed or not?
Your premise is utter bullshit. And if it were true, then the democrats previously attempted a coup when their insurrectionists stormed the White House gates wanting to go after Trump.
Either they’re both true, or neither is true. You can’t have it both ways.
How slimey a move. You start off with “for those who are too lazy”, then you don’t even quote the entire text. Amazing.
You’re an outright liar, and have no business criticizing Ken for leaving off content superfluous to the point.
Typical progressive thinking: If it is unifying the Republicans against Trump, then it's divisive.
That's also delusional thinking.
In that letter, the RNC is calling for unity against Democrats, socialism, etc. The Republicans unifying against socialism--without regarding January 6 as an important issue--is still unifying.
I bet progressive long for the days when the Republicans were all about gay marriage and abortion. Now that the Republicans are calling for unity against socialism, that must be really scary . . . to a progressive.
The Republicans are lying sacks of shit who have proven themselves to be fascists.
The Republicans unifying against socialism (without regard for January 6) is still unifying--regardless of whether you think the Republicans are lying sacks of shit who have proven themselves to be fascists. And to believe that unifying the party isn't unifying the party unless it's unifying the party against Trump is still delusional.
Socialism is when government owns the means of productions. There is no one serious in the US advocating for socialism. The Issue is a boogeyman.
Bernie on line 2.
Socialism is when government controls the means of production, when prices are set by the government, and when wealth is distributed by the government.
Capitalism is when the means of production are in private hands, when prices are set by markets, and when wealth is distributed by markets. (Market forces are people making choices).
Any definitions of socialism and capitalism are in addition to these features, and if you believe otherwise, what you believe about them is wrong.
Replace Republicans with Democrats in that statement and you are correct.
Yeah, nothing more fascistic than wanting government out of our lives. You’re the fucking fascist.
Republicans haven’t gone around for the last two years demanding that they have the power to shut down businesses on a whim and force people to get medical services.
Between the existence of Ray Epps and the fact that the alphabet agencies refuse to say under oath how many of the masked idiots involved in the initial "storming of the capital" were either in their employ or assets working under their direction, the left's attempt to create their own Reichstag fire can go fuck itself.
Correct.
The lack of an absolute, clear-cut denial of agents active in the protest is all you need to know.
The rest is commentary.
This.
It will be years before we know the truth. But it will eventually come out.
Keep grasping at that straw as a way to keep avoiding seeing reality.
The reality of Sicknick dying of a stroke days later?
Fuck right off.
"Rioting is the language of tbe unheard"- some guy
Again agreed. The attack on the Capital did not unite Republicans it divided them. The quickest way to unite the party is to get rid of the divisive element, that is ex-President Trump. He anchors the party to the past and the 2020 election.
Do you think of yourself as a member of the GOP? Because the overwhelming majority of Republicans think getting rid of the January 6 obsessives is the way to unify the party--even if you don't.
'
Insisting on something that the overwhelming majority of the party's voters don't believe is more of a progressive thing. Progressives think of unity as believing whatever they're told to believe by their leadership--no matter how stupid. Republican unity is more about representing the views of the overwhelming majority of their constituents--whatever they are.
Exhibit 1:
"70 percent of Republicans now say they don’t believe the 2020 election was free and fair, a stark rise from the 35 percent of GOP voters who held similar beliefs before the election . . . . Among those who believed that the election wasn’t free and fair, 78 percent believed that mail-in voting led to widespread voter fraud.
----Politico, November 9, 2020
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/republicans-free-fair-elections-435488
If anything is unifying Republicans, it's the belief that the "temporary", pandemic justified, mail-in ballot rule changes made the 2020 election uniquely ripe for fraud--even if there wasn't any. And if anything continues to unite Republicans in that belief, it's the efforts of the Democrats since the election to require every state to keep accepting mail-in ballots two weeks after the election.
Seeing Republicans unify around a narrative that . . . um . . . unifies 70% of them should be unsurprising, and there are plenty of Republicans--who want someone other than Trump to be nominated in 2024--but who also don't want a mail-in ballot count, nationally, that always seem to keep going until the Democrats finally win. The progressive don't seem to ever want another legitimate election winner.
Insisting that the beliefs that united 70% of Republicans--two months before January 6--are somehow divisive within the party is just being willfully obtuse. Again, because you don't share the beliefs of the Republicans, doesn't mean they're divisive within the Republican party. It just means you're not a Republican. Because other people don't have TDS, doesn't mean they're the ones being divisive.
"The progressive[s] don't seem to ever want another legitimate election winner."
"Legitimacy is the right and acceptance of an authority, usually a governing law or a regime . . . . An authority viewed as legitimate often has the right and justification to exercise power. Political legitimacy is considered a basic condition for governing."
----Legitimacy (political)
Democratic elections are by no means the only source of legitimacy. Putin, Xi, and Louis XIV enjoyed various measures of legitimacy, and their democratic bona fides are/were in the sewer.
Comparative legitimacy is typically measured by things like police per capita. If the government is more legitimate, fewer police are needed to maintain order. The LA riots were a collapse in the legitimacy of the government of Los Angeles, and order was only restored when Bush Sr. sent in the National Guard to dramatically increase the number of police per capita.
There are lesser forms of legitimacy problems. Sometimes, when a president does things that are especially unacceptable to the voters, they start to question his legitimacy. Barack Obama nationalized GM with TARP funds and bailed out Wall Street institutions with our future paychecks. Barack Obama pushed ObamaCare.
These things were extremely unpopular, and his opponents started to question his legitimacy--buying into the theory that he wasn't really a U.S. citizen. He suffered one of the greatest midterm defeats in American history because he lost his legitimacy--the important point being that the political legitimacy of the government was restored by those election results.
Bill Clinton lost a tremendous amount of legitimacy pushing HillaryCare, to some extent, but he also lost legitimacy because he went after Americans' gun rights, went after Randy Weaver, and burned dozens of children to death in a fire in Waco. This led to a huge upsurge in people joining the militia movement, which only abated because of the Oklahoma City bombing and because Clinton suffered a humiliating defeat in his first midterm in 1994.
What would have happened in America if right wing voters hadn't had the confidence in the election system necessary to see big victories in the House during those midterms--to check the power of presidents who are widely seen as illegitimate? I suspect the movement against Obama would have become downright ugly, and the militia movement against Clinton might have gone to its logical, awful conclusion.
Plenty of non-Trump supporters understand the legitimizing effects of elections, and every Republican who wants free and fair elections isn't an insurrectionist. It's the democrats who want mail in ballots to keep counting for weeks after the election date who are undermining democracy--they're undermining the process by which our government is legitimized. And that's far more dangerous that anything that happened on January 6.
I'm a big fan of the idea that election participation is often just used by the elite as a means to legitimize the horrible shit they want to do to us. Because you won a popularity contest doesn't give you a legitimate basis to violate my rights. Even I understand, however, that in order to avoid the negative consequences of an illegitimate government, it's necessary for the losers of an election to have faith that their votes are at least being counted properly.
When people lose faith in liberal institutions like elections and voting, they don't give up on their desires. They just given up on liberal institutions. If the Democrats want to see a real dictator rise to power with popular support in this country, they're doing a great job. Undermining the public's belief in free and fare elections while denouncing everyone who doesn't accept the election results as insurrectionists is a great way to create millions of insurrectionists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_(political)
You ignorant clown, Obama was elected twice with a popular vote margin - the GOP, your party, has managed this once in the last 8 elections - and Obamacare and saving the greater midwest economy by bailing out GM - even Ford agreed with that move - poll favorability still. You continually confuses the opinions of your shrinking GOP base - your senators last represented most Americans (by a very slim margin) in 1996 - and you hold the SC only by stealing seats from popularly elected presidents. I suppose substituting "MAGA jerks" for "people" in your screeds help them make sense, but fortunately Maga jerks are a minority, and have been since they were invented in 2016.
The letter never said anything calling the storming of the capital legitimate political discourse. It was a fairly obvious shot at how the Democrats are promising to prosecute people who weren't even in DC that day, and doing things like hauling Alex Jones before the committee (at his expense) and asking him 100+ questions, when he wasn't there, he didn't organize anything, etc.
The Democrats are trying to de facto criminalize any questioning if the election results. And where they can't actually prosecute/impeach someone for it, they will abuse the power of committee subpoena to cost such folks thousands of dollars and several days of their time, when there is no possible legislative need for it (the bad faith nature of these subpoenas are evident in the fact that no attempt was made by secure an immunity order after the witnesses had informed the committee of their 5th amendment concerns).
Questioning the legitimacy of the election is legitimate political discourse. Just like it was in 2000. The fact that a few people rioted does not suddenly invalidate the entire discourse, no more than the BLM riots made "Bryanna Taylor was shot in her bed" (an objectively incorrect statement, BTW) illegitimate political discourse. The abuse of process to punish people exercising their 1st amendment rights who had nothing to do with Jan 6 is well worth criticism.
Read it.
The RNC is covering ass for working against Trump for his primary in 2016 and since. They helped set him up with Rince Priebus and the rest of the RINOs from Trump’s first year.
They advised holding back, when Trump’s instinct was to blow up Russiagate. They pressured to maintain status quo with the swamp.
They even tanked 2020, by arranging the messed up debate formats and failing to support the Stop The Steal movement, despite using outrage from the election losses for their fundraising.
The RNC is better than the DNC, but there is no reason to think that censuring Liz and Kinz is anything other than an attempt to curry favor with Trump’s fans.
Their position reflects changes in the Republican base, that's for sure, and the Republican party has changed dramatically on a number of issues--because of Trump. The Republicans used to be the party of neocon warmongers, for instance, and now they're more about getting out of "forever wars". The party leaders don't change as quickly as public opinion, and if the base changes away from Trump in the near future, the RNC will lag in those changes, too.
I maintain, however, that the RNC does come around eventually, where the DNC doesn't--on principle. The DNC sees itself as bulwark against the wrong opinions of voting Democrats. Superdelegates are one expression of that, but there are plenty of others. The Democrat voters don't tell the DNC what to do. It's the other way around. They see their elitism as a feature rather than a bug.
Now if your a GOPer you know how many Dems felt about the Clintons..please just go away. Pence, Trump just go away. You have your time in the barrel now move on
Keep trying live with leftists, folks.
They'll take everything from you and your loved ones.
They are cancer, and you'd better think about the necessary measures it takes to eliminate cancer.
https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1489752382833664002?t=VMbWy-F6YrI6AzZMKDFf_Q&s=19
JUST IN - GoFundMe has deleted Canada's Freedom Convoy fundraiser for violating its terms, stating the "peaceful demonstration has become an occupation" now.
MORE - All donors may submit a request for a full refund until February 19th, 2022. The remaining funds will be sent to "established charities verified by GoFundMe."
MORE - Mayor of #Ottawa praises GoFundMe and calls on other fundraising platforms to take the same position in order "to put an end to this occupation."
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But yea, let's keep pretending the left has legitimacy, and isn't a mortal threat...
Your complaint is that a private company isn't giving free money to people who violate its TOS?
Yes, we're surely all doomed.
In the end, you will be doomed. Not us.
So is this a GoFundMe Convoy or a Trucker Convoy?
Muh private corporate-government collusion.
It is theft, pure and simple.
It would be theft if the donors were not allowed to ask for a refund.
Saying it's theft from the Convoy is Tony logic: not taking is giving and not giving is taking.
GoFundMe refuses to be the middle man. That's not theft. It's being an asshole.
If GoFundMe is diverting the donors money for a purpose other than it was explicitly intended, they should ask permission to do so. It is taking.
Putting a web page up to obtain your money back is not the same as asking permission.
We agree it is an asshole move by GoFundMe. And like you, there is no way in hell I will ever use GoFundMe.
Putting a web page up to obtain your money back is not the same as asking permission.
It's also all over the news. I doubt many doners are unaware that they can get a refund.
Regardless, GoFundMe likely lost millions of customers and potential customers over this.
They surely lost two, sarcasmic: you and I.
If they are operating as a rational business, they must be more concerned about the customers they'd lose if they facilitated the large-scale funding of far-right groups.
Or maybe they've been infiltrated by the all-powerful woke soy brain parasites. Either way, they don't have to give free money to people who violate their TOS.
I've never used GoFundMe in the past, but after this I never will.
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/02/05/ottawa-police-thank-gofundme-for-withholding-funding-for-canadian-truckers-urge-all-crowdfunding-sites-to-follow/
Ottowa police thank GoFundMe for "listening to our concerns as a City and a police service," and canceling the fundraiser.
GFM canceled a fundraiser for a peaceful protest at the request of the police.
https://twitter.com/InezFeltscher/status/1489665592848228353?t=Rru7UEVXvA1xXQzhbIa88g&s=19
Michelle Malkin and her husband being banned from AirBnB is the shape of our social credit system to come. Don’t care what noxious views she’s expressed, this is the road to a very dark place.
The husband being banned is even more worrying, it’s formalizing the process of guilt by association. It’s systematizing what happens naturally when the mob tries to cancel someone: their friends and sometimes even family abandon them out of fear of being associated.
I’m somewhat sympathetic to “you don’t have a right to a Twitter account” argument. But the problem is that it was never going to stop at a Twitter account. It was always going to go in the direction of being banned from whole sectors of economy and life, both on and offline.
If you want to get a sense of the scope of cultural uniformity in corporate America, try to find a household name company NOT on this list.
Can’t free market/boycott your way out of this. Every domestic airline is here, every pharma co, every bank, etc.
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Marinus Van Der Lube had no business burning down the Reichstag, but a bigger crime was the Nazis pretending his action was part of a vast conspiracy to overthrow the government that justified political persecutions.
If you're in favor of continuing to use the American Reichstag Fire a year later to justify a political witchhunt, there's an American Nazi in your bathroom mirror.
Correct.
Anyone still claiming that was an "insurrection" is obviously ignorant of the word's definition or pushing a lefty-shit narrative.
Except for the bit where the January 6th riots were not a false flag operation in any way whatsoever.
Then let's see the emails! Let's see the video! Put it all out there and we're all sure to agree it was an insurrection, right?
Whether it was an insurrection and whether it was a false flag are different questions.
“Insurrection” is likely an exaggeration.
But, hey, conflate them if it helps you feel better.
And hey, feel free to lie here every day if it makes you feel better. Which is what you do anyway.
There's just as much actual evidence behind the Trumpist "January 6th was a false flag" conspiracy theories as there ever was behind the Communist "Reichstag Fire was a false flag" conspiracy theories.
Mike doesn’t understand.
So, if you are saying there is no solid evidence for either, I’ll have to take your word for it on the Reichstag fire. I’m not an expert on that bit of history.
BTW, opened a new window and it had a CNN propaganda lead on a Pense story: "The room grew silent"!
Next, we'll get "It was a dark and stormy night".
Boehm just on Monday said that the Vice President could because Trump said he could. That was his justification for electoral reform. But now he seems to agree with Pence. Maybe he just believes whoever spoke last? Or maybe he's actually gone and react the Act and the Constitution since the last time he tried to grapple with this.
It's pretty clear, Trump was full of shit when he said Pence had any authority. At the most, Pence could have stalled things out for like an hour by being obstructionist and stubborn. He doesn't have the authority to do anything beyond opening the envelopes.
The only thing clear is that Boehm is a birdbrain.
Remember, Boehm the birdbrain was all-in for Biden. Dolt.
Someone said the job of the VP is a "bucket of spit."
John Nance Garner (FDR's VP)
“Boehm just on Monday said that the Vice President could because Trump said he could.”
Umm, can you quote precisely where Boehm said any such thing?
“Donald Trump Just Showed Why Reforming the Electoral Count Act Is Essential
By saying the quiet part loud, the former president should spur Congress into action.”
"...It's pretty clear, Trump was full of shit when he said Pence had any authority..."
Maybe.
At issue here is the constant lying about what Trump said and what the TDS-addled assholes *claimed* Trump said *and* whether (as Boehm admits) the law is ambiguous.
Two issues which both need resolution, and given the constant lying regarding what Trump said and what someone *claimed* Trump said, both are serious hurdles; put up or shut up.
Given the media coverage of Trumps 'statements', I'm calling bullshit until there are clear transcripts or recordings.
Tired of the constant lies.
"Mike Pence: 'Trump Is Wrong. I Had No Right To Overturn the Election.'"
Let's move this from propaganda to reality:
1) Trump may have been right, according to the article.
2) There is no evidence other than Pense' assertion that Trump said what i Pense claims.
3) What Trump said was the subject of constant lies for four years, so any claimant of "he said" is under serious burden to prove the claim.
Simply, the TDS addled assholes and piles of lefty shit spent four years proving that they were not in any way at all reliable. Now, like turd, they get to own their rep.
https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1489773743622791171?t=eBxCEc2nZP9mSI37R9QfBA&s=19
For those who just saw me on Tucker Carlson's show, here's the 2012 @JakeSullivan46 email I mentioned: "Al Qaeda is on our side in Syria."
This sums up the Syria dirty war, and helps explain why bipartisan neocons hate Russia: it took the side that defeated Al Qaeda in Syria.
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"Al Qaeda is on our side in Syria."
It's worse than that. Saudi Arabia and Israel are on our side in Syria.
Reason conflates and confuses two different issues.
I agree, Pence had no right to overturn the election. Only to certify or not certify the election.
The election had cheating. What we don't know is to what extent and did it alter the results. The Democrats refusal to investigate the critical states in this leaves us all uncertain of who actually won the election.
The fact is the Senate certified the election. Biden is president now. The other fact is we need to clean up elections so people can trust the results. The Republicans want to do that right now, the Democrats want to muddy the waters even more and make their cheating easier.
^^^ This
Pence has the Constitutional power to open the envelopes and tally the electors. Period.
had
Actually, the Constitution just says that he "shall" open the envelopes. After that, it says that the votes "shall be counted". (Passive voice - it doesn't have to be the VP that does the math.) And, in my opinion, since it says that he "shall" open them, it isn't a power. It is a duty that is not optional.
Given that you are as TDS-addled lying and steaming pile of lefty shit, why would you bother to post your opinions among those capable of seeing them what they are worth?
Hint: Zero.
Fuck off and die.
You're just whining that you lost an election in an abnormally petulant way. Sowing the seeds for future whining, and never accepting the result of any election you care about when the Republican doesn't win, no doubt.
All you're doing is demonstrating one of the reasons democracy is bad: there are so many stupid people who hate losing.
There seems to be at least one more Republican that understands that power ultimately resides with the people and that those previously elected betray that basic principle when they try and hold power despite the people's choices at the ballot box.
"We had no right to ensure election law was upheld".......
"We had the "emergency" power of COVID!!!!"
Good grief these clowns must think we're all stupid sheeple...
247 comments on the innocuous news bit? You kidding me. About what, the color of his tie? This is the web site where most don't even acknowledge the elephant sitting on their neck - continuing covid cases, admittances, and deaths are driven by the unvaxxed - while complaining they can't breath.
Molly still isn’t going to fuck you, no matter how stupid you are.
Richard Nixon has since 1971 directed the IRS to decide which Kleptocracy gets to win every election. That usurpation, along with violent, shoot-first prohibitionism laws has been exported to every Banana Republic colonized by fiat of the Monroe Doctrine, as amended by Herbert Hoover and Harry Anslinger's "Good Neighbor" Policy. Violent laws against production and trade are working as well for These States as they did for the single-Kleptocracy Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
Ya know hank, your fucking chemically-fueled rants are not worth even scanning.
Fuck off and die - *bing*
"...Pence is a broadly well-liked Republican who successfully navigated the chaos of the Trump years and emerged from it as one of the strongest non-Trump candidates for 2024..."
Just ran on to this.
If there were ever evidence that the asshole Bohem was full of shit, and a TDS-addled asshole, we have it here.
Bohem, you deserve a rusty pitchfork up your ass; TDS addled piles of shit like you all do.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Just read this vapid article - no editorial position was taken at all, reported as straight as Dow Jones. The writers know their idiotic audience, and can't go pissing them off by telling the truth about their personality cult masquerading as a party with principles.
Reason’s audience would be a Jo Jorgensen cult, if anything. Man commenters here are not representative of Reason’s readership; many commenters here are right wingers who like to hang out here because the comments are unmoderated.
Back in the day I used to talk to libertarians here. Those were good times, but I suppose all the arguments had been exhausted anyway.
Might as well let an authoritarian cult of personality ransack the place. This is a microcosm of libertopia, no doubt.
You hated us then too.
But I hated y'all the least.
Do you even darken the doors of university business departments anymore, or are you with your friends on the lawn burning books?
The real problem was Trump's vague language. Pence had "no right", yet Dems think he had enough of a right that they are trying to push legislation that would take away the right he didn't have.
Trump wanted to force a Constitutional crisis, but make no mistake, the crisis was already there. We already saw the sudden rule changes and questionable election practices and we also saw how state and municipal govts refused to implicate themselves. That's why he's disappointed by Pence. I guarantee you Pence has the exact same concerns about election integrity. People have been asking these types of questions for decades. It's a dirty, open secret that we do almost nothing to secure our elections and now pretty much invite fraud with open arms.
Also, on the question of whether or not the govt has the right to do things, our entire history has been the govt doing things that it has no right to do. The majority of govt is unconstitutional, but that has not stopped its expansion over the past 200 years. If the Constitution and existing legal remedies fail to remediate an issue as severe as election fraud, something must be done. Having the right is irrelevant.
It may be immoral, but might makes. It might not make right, but that won't change what happens. That's just how the world works.
“… yet Dems think he had enough of a right that they are trying to push legislation that would take away the right he didn't have”
That is some quite spin-ful thinking.
As with CRT, and the left trying to make everyone think that parents believed that grade school children were being taught college level theory when the parents were trying to get teachers to stop teaching everything through the lens of CRT, so it is with this idiot idea that Trump thought Pence could--single-handedly-- overturn the election.
No.
Trump was under the CORRECT idea that Pence could refuse to certify the electoral votes due to inability to verify and throw the election to the House.
One version is sane. The other comes from the people who can't tell a man from a woman.
people who can't tell a man from a woman
Reason *drink* Magazine *drink*.