Free-Range Kids

Mom Ignores Doctor When Her Sick 2-Year-Old Starts Feeling Better, Child Services Send a SWAT Team

"What about the parents' rights to decide what's best for their child?"

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DCS
Screenshot via security footage

Chandler, Arizona, cops broke through the door of a family's home in the middle of the night, stormed in, pointed their guns, handcuffed the father, and watched as the state's Department of Child Safety (DCS) took custody of the parents' three kids—all because mom had decided her toddler's fever was not serious enough to merit a trip to the hospital.

It was dinnertime on February 25 when the pregnant mother took her 2-year-old to the doctor with a fever of over 100. The doctor told her to take him to the emergency room, fearing that because the boy was unvaccinated, perhaps he had meningitis—a life-threatening disease.

The doctor called the hospital to alert them. But by the time the mother and child left his office, the boy was "laughing and playing with his siblings," according to this excellent piece by Dianna M. Nanez in The Arizona Republic. Mom took his temperature again, and it was almost normal. So instead of going to the emergency room, the family went home. The mom called the doctor to say her boy's fever had broken and she wasn't going to the emergency room. The doctor told her she should go anyway, so she agreed she would—but then she didn't.

That's when the madness began.

The hospital called the doctor to tell him the toddler hadn't arrived. The doctor called DCS. And DCS requested the cops check on the family as a caseworker headed over.

And then, according to The Arizona Republic:

It was about 10:30 p.m. when two police officers knocked on the family's door. The officers heard someone coughing.

Officer Tyler Cascio wrote in a police report that he knocked on the door several times but no one answered.

A neighbor approached the officers and police explained the situation. The woman said she knew her neighbor and that "she was a good mother." At the request of officers, the neighbor called the mother and said police wanted to speak with her.

The DCS caseworker arrived and updated police on the toddler's fever and the mother choosing not to take her child to the hospital. The officer called the family's doctor, who repeated her recommendation that the mother take the child to the hospital. …

At about 11:30 p.m., the caseworker informed officers that DCS planned to obtain a "temporary custody notice" from a judge to remove the child for emergency medical aid.

Just after midnight the caseworker got that notice, which is required by law. Matters subsequently escalated:

Cascio wrote that officers consulted with the police criminal investigations bureau and SWAT.

"Based upon the court order, the intent of DCS to serve the order, and exigency to ensure the health and welfare of the child, the decision was made to force entry to the home if the parents refused to respond to verbal requests," according to police records. Police knocked, saying they had a court order and would force entry if needed, according to police records.

And force they did:

It was after 1 a.m. when officers kicked down the family's door. One officer carried a shield, while another was described as having "lethal coverage." Officers pointing guns yelled, "Chandler Police Department," and entered the house.

The rest of the story is equally nuts. The kids were all placed in separate foster homes. When the case got to juvenile court 10 days later, DCS requested it be closed to the public. The judge refused.

But then it seemed as if DCS decided to make everything harder for the parents, because now the press was interested, as was the Arizona DCS Oversight Group, a local organization that fights for families' rights, and a state legislator, Rep. Kelly Townsend (R–Mesa), who had helped write the law requiring DCS to get a warrant before removing a child. Townsend has been lobbing zingers like, "What about the parents' rights to decide what's best for their child? Parents felt the child was fine. Next thing we know, the Gestapo is at their door."

In court, DCS tried to convince the judge, Jennifer Green, to bar the press from covering the dispute. A lawyer for the agency even claimed that the parents had gone against the best interests of the children by involving the media. Green rejected this argument, saying, "In Arizona we like our courts to be open."

However, the judge ultimately sided with DCS, ruling that the children's removal was lawful and telling the parents "to remember that the state had them on a family-reunification plan and wants them to regain custody of their children."

The children's grandparents are undergoing a DCS review, and hope to be permitted to temporarily shelter the kids once that's approved. But there's no telling how long it will be before the kids can just go home to mom and dad.

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364 responses to “Mom Ignores Doctor When Her Sick 2-Year-Old Starts Feeling Better, Child Services Send a SWAT Team

  1. Stories like this leave me confused as to why anarchy isn’t more popular than it is.

    1. the boy was unvaccinated

      The parents didn’t play by the rules, therefore they are terrible parents and deserve everything that happened to them.

      1. Ron Bailey probably agrees.

        1. Ron Bailey is the anti-science Monsanto man.

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      2. There it is. The doctor was retaliating.

        1. There it is. The liberal-progressive doctor was retaliating.

          FTFY

          From the linked article:

          On February 25, the mother took her 2-year-old boy to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine clinic in Tempe, according to Chandler police records.

          Better headline:

          Loony Earth-Mother Physician Hears a Horse, Assumes a Zebra. DCS Goes Zebra Hunting.

          1. So why did the mom take the kid to see a loony left wing doctor?

            1. Free Clinic?

      3. Vaccinations as a general concept are fine… But frankly, 80-90% of the vaccines they try to get you to take nowadays are pointless. And averse reactions DO happen. So it is perfectly logical to not risk hurting your kid by getting them a vaccination for something they will likely never catch. I am of the mind that even if you want to vaccinate for some stuff waiting until the kid is a touch older and their immune system more established makes sense.

        I myself haven’t got shit since I was in middle school… No issues, of course.

        1. There are vaccinations that make sense. Smallpox. Measels. There are vaccinations that make NO sense for minor children. Wasn’t there a flap a decade of more back over a state that wanted to vaccinate young girls (12? Something on that order) against an STD, with the vaccine having a strong link to cervical cancer later in life?

          1. The virus had a link to cervical cancer. The virus was an STD. It was recommended that children get the vaccine at age 11-12. Fundies joined the anti-vaccine crowd because they thought that their daughters would forever remain virgins.

            https://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/stdfact-hpv.htm

          2. Yes, the vaccine does have a strong link to cervical cancer. It prevents it

            I wonder how often people remember things precisely backwards like this

            1. That vaccine was for a minor stain of std so small they only had 200 cases in a 20 year period in the entire country. it had nothing to do with virginity it was about the smallest of odds of contracting

              1. Not quite, but Careless needs to recognize that the transitive property can be a bitch.

                The odds of an adverse event from the trial were something like 3.4 per 100,000. The odds of cervical cancer in the population at large were something like 4.5 per same and the odds of dying were like 2.4 per.

                Because the vaccine wasn’t 100% effective at preventing the disease and was even less effective at preventing cancer (and still is), regular screenings were and are still recommended. So, still to this day, it’s an additional bit of “preventative maintenance” that’s not definitively preventative and doesn’t diminish your reliance on other maintenance that is definitively preventative.

              2. The vaccine for HPV (Human Papilloma Virus) prevents 95% of cervical cancers in women 100% anal cancers in men, and an untold number of mouth, tongue and throat cancers. You are absolutely wrong about 200 cases in a 20 year period. In the next 20 year, it is expected that cervical cancer will be very rare. Do you know what? Because women and girls are getting vaccinated.

                1. The vaccine for HPV (Human Papilloma Virus) prevents 95% of cervical cancers in women 100% anal cancers in men

                  If you aren’t just outright wrong, you’ve got this backwards. More than 95% of cervical cancers are associated with HPV while only 70% of anal cancers have HPV as a cofactor. The vaccine can’t reasonably prevent more cancers than the virus is suspected of causing.

                  Even then, these conditions are rather rare and highly preventable without the vaccine.

                  and an untold number of mouth, tongue and throat cancers

                  Untold as in, so low there aren’t any profit margins in finding out.

                  You are absolutely wrong about 200 cases in a 20 year period.

                  The one possibly true statement in your rant.

                  In the next 20 year, it is expected that cervical cancer will be very rare.

                  As someone who has spent years screening for it, it’s already exceedingly rare. Something like 1:10-1:20th the rate of breast, prostate, and lung cancer. On the order of 25X more likely to be *killed* in a car accident than to develop any cervical cancer which is then one of the more preeminently treatable cancers.

                  Do you know what? Because women and girls are getting vaccinated.

                  Absolutely and unequivocally incorrect. The overwhelmingly primary factor is the prevalence of regular screening, then fewer partners and/or less risky behavior, then vaccination.

                  1. The biggest problems with the HPV vaccine is that almost 10% of those that get it develop Guillain-Barr? Syndrome which can be fatal or create a lifetime disability. The State of Texas TRIED to make the vaccine a childhood requirement, but I think it finally got shot down.

                  2. No, I don’t have it backwords. The HPV vaccine prevents the infection, which later prevents cancer. You’re suggesting throwing the vaccine out because it doesn’t prevent 100% of the cancers caused by HPV, that’s insane.

                    Rare? RARE? Approximately 43,000 cases of cancer are caused by the HPV virus each year, of which 18K are mouth, tongue and throat cancers. Do you have any idea how much it costs to treat 43K cases of cancer?

                    “The overwhelmingly primary factor is the prevalence of regular screening, then fewer partners and/or less risky behavior, then vaccination.”….

                    Screening can only catch the infection after it occurs and then fingers crossed the infected will not later develop cancer. The vaccine prevents both. Risky behavior? HPV is spread through both sexual and non-sexual contact. What are you going to tell the woman who was a virgin on her wedding day and caught it from her new husband? She should have had fewer partners? She shouldn’t have engaged in risky behavior? What are you going to say to the man who was faithful to his wife, but she cheated on him?

                2. HPV vaccine safety: https://youtu.be/8Yf4-P2qbHo I’d love to share more, but since the recent YouTube, Google, Amazon crack down it has become much harder to find anything other than ‘u-rah-rah gooooo vaccines!’ on the internet. Oh by the way, the Brady Bunch “measles” episode, season 1 episode 13 has just been taken down by CBS and HULU.

                  Oh, and one last thing, speaking of censorship, here is a pro vax scientist at about the 25 minute mark discussing the silencing of vaccine safety https://youtu.be/dodsGp37M50. Don’t question, don’t research, don’t hold the pharmaceutical industry accountable.

              3. No, this is not accurate. I used to work for the Center for HPV Prevention at the University of New Mexico, working for the woman who basically invented that vaccine, and continues doing research on the topic. (She’s good at what she does, but holy crap is she a goddamned terrible boss, BTW.)

                The vaccine treats the 2, 4, and 9 (depending on formulation) strains of HPV most responsible for cervical cancer, and for the 4 and 9 strain versions, genital warts in men.

                It’s been so effective that the recommendations for pap smear intervals has been increased twice since the release of the vaccine. And it absolutely makes the most sense to use it in sexually naive adolescents, to make sure that they’re never exposed to these strains of HPV.

              4. No – it was all about selling vaccine. They even tried pushing it for boys!

                1. Yes, what snipelee said.

            2. At the end of the day, it still comes down to weighing and measuring the particulars of a given vaccine vs a given problem.

              I for one am fine with a number of vaccines, especially if an actual person has a reason to be concerned about what it deals with. But many of them are silly. They give tropical disease vaccines to people that live in Michigan and shit, it’s retarded.

              Also for some it’s 6 in one half dozen the other. Get multiple Chicken Pox vacs, or just get Chicken Pox? Honestly it’s not THAT big a deal either way. I got Chicken Pox, I’m fine. There is debate about how well the vac might work in preventing shingles later in life… In other words it’s probably a wash, or close to it. Just like the flu.

              But the long and short is to use your brain and do ones that make sense when they make sense… Don’t bother with the others.

              1. “They give tropical disease vaccines to people that live in Michigan”

                What??? Say more…

            3. There is a known cure for HPV with zero side effects invented in Mexico about 6 months ago.
              HPV vaccine has serious side effects for 1 in 500.
              Also the strain the HPV vaccine “prevents” isn’t even the most prevalent strains.

              1. There is a known cure for HPV with zero side effects invented in Mexico about 6 months ago.

                This is playing fast and loose. There’s a treatment for HPV in precancerous lesions. We already have a host of methods for treating precancerous lesions and it’s not clear that all precancerous lesions will proceed to cancer with or without the virus/treatment. The only known way to rid the body of HPV is immunization.

                Also the strain the HPV vaccine “prevents” isn’t even the most prevalent strains.

                Again fast and loose but there is a key underlying point. There are a prevalent strains of HPV that are mostly or entirely benign and the vaccine doesn’t exactly target them. There are less prevalent strains that cause lesions and cancer that vary slightly from region to region. The vaccine does a pretty good job of targeting these. However, this distinction means that, unlike some other diseases like polio and smallpox, there is a significant question as to whether the disease can be eradicated. Even if you waved a wand and eradicated every strain of ‘high-risk’ HPV tomorrow and the top 3 low/no-risk strains the next day, it’s not entirely clear that you wouldn’t have cases of HPV causing cancer cropping up in the next 5-10 yrs. let alone 20-30 yrs. Not that we shouldn’t eradicate the disease if possible (by voluntary means) just that it’s not currently possible and maybe not conceivable with any amount of money.

          3. There are vaccinations that make sense. Smallpox.

            LOL

            I get what you’re saying but it’s like Iodine, as a concept, makes sense in case of a nuclear attack.

            1. Stating a fact – iodine is an essential nutrient required by the human body to function correctly. The thyroid is NOT the only organ in the body which uses iodine, so whether or not a person is exposed to radiation, that person needs a good amount of iodine every day. The thyroid can only store 50 milligrams of iodine, the whole body when saturated can store 1,500 milligrams. The RDA is a pathetic few micrograms, much smaller than a milligram, and only suggested to prevent goiter. It does nothing to address the rest of the body’s needs, which can include immune system function, diabetes/blood sugar control, atherosclerosis, fibromyalgia, libido, cystic conditions in breasts/skin/ovaries which can lead to cancer if not treated. Every cell of the human body uses iodine. If someone wants more info, Dr. David Brownstein and Dr. Jorge Flechas both treat their patients with it. Videos and other info can be found online from both doctors.

          4. Wasn’t there a flap a decade of more back over a state that wanted to vaccinate young girls (12? Something on that order) against an STD, with the vaccine having a strong link to cervical cancer later in life?

            The problem was multi-faceted. The virus, HPV, is an STD and is causally related to several soft-tissue cancers with cervical cancer being the most notably direct and abundant (with throat and anal cancer being somewhat apparent runners up).

            Now, facets to the controversy:

            The vaccine hadn’t cleared clinical trials, there were uninvestigated adverse events, and, arguably, problems getting them reported and investigated. Nothing too out of the ordinary for any given clinical trial except…

            A number of school districts were requiring the vaccine for girls as young as 12, *per the CDC’s recommendation*. These two things combined (and the absence of some others) made for the quintessential case of why libertarians absolutely *should* oppose mandatory vaccination (It should be noted that the points I raise below were brought up by licensed doctors, some of whom participated in the clinical trials to help bring guardasil to market).

            continued…

          5. 1. The vaccination of girls selectively wouldn’t eradicate the disease. Boys should be vaccinated too but, assuming predominantly PIV sex, would receive hardly any benefit. The policy of vaccinating only girls represents some pretty ham-fisted ‘decision by committee’.

            2. The disease can be readily avoided without vaccination. It’s not like measles that you pick it up sitting in class next to someone who has it.

            3. Prior to the completion of trials, the efficacy was between modest and a question mark. So, in addition to #1, between 50 and 70% of those vaccinated developed immunity and only to certain strains (this has improved). Moreover, the vaccine hadn’t demonstrated *any* efficacy beyond 5 yrs. at that point.

            4. Like chickenpox and shingles (as well as a few other diseases) the progression from primary to secondary infection isn’t guaranteed and there’s nothing to prevent a later vaccination (which may be preferred in light of #3).

            5ish. All of the cancers covered by HPV account for something like 2-3% of cancers. With or without the vaccine, routine screenings of the cervix, prostate, vagina, etc. are still required to diagnose and prevent/treat cancer.

            So, not necessarily the case that the virus was doing more harm than good (although it *was* still an open question) but reasonable evidence that the vaccine, as applied, was overwhelmingly pointless and loads of evidence of the fact that statists were gonna get their fucking state on evidence be damned.

            1. 1. It is now recommended that boys receive the vaccine at age 11 or 12. Older males should also get vaccinated. Recently the age range has been change for women. Use to be that women were only given the vaccine up to age 25. Now the recommendation is for women up to age 35.

              2. The disease can be spread though non-sexual contact.

              3. The vaccine hasn’t been around long enough to know. Cancers caused by the HPV virus can take decades to develop. So someone infected with HPV at age 15 may not be diagnosed with cervical, anal, through cancer until they are in their 60’s.

              4. See #3 above. The HPV virus (the actual wart) can resolve itself without medical intervention, but that does not mean someone is in the clear from later developing cancer caused by the virus.

              5. The vaccine prevents 95% of cervical cancer and 100% of anal cancer. Would you prefer 15000 women diagnosed each year with cervical cancer or something as simple as a vaccine?

              There is currently no screening test anal cancer, or for throat cancer. Women are being told to get a pap every 3 years. The vaccine is the best way to prevent these types of cancer.

              The vaccine prevents 95% of the cases of cervical cancer, 100% of the cases of anal cancer and an untold number of mouth, tongue, and throat cancers, hardly making the vaccine “pointless.”

              1. There is currently no screening test anal cancer

                Not quite accurate. Men can get pap smears for this, too.

                1. Not quite accurate.

                  You’re being generous. There are tests, they just aren’t “screening” tests because it doesn’t behoove patients or doctors to have 100% of the population go in for tests to find a disease that less than 2% will, relatively actively, develop.

                  There is no screening test for breast cancer among males.

                2. Men cannot have a pap smear test as it’s specific to the cervix.

                3. Men cannot have a pap smear test as it’s specific to the cervix.

                  1. Men cannot have a pap smear test as it’s specific to the cervix.

                    This is a bit ‘chicken and egg’ or ‘duck typing’ semantics. The smear test is just a sample collection and staining method. It was developed and perfected using the cervix, but there’s nothing intrinsically or explicitly forbidding other tissues from being similarly processed. You could do a pap smear on just about any mucus or membranous tissue.

              2. And what about the averse reactions? Some being extreme? What about the low odds overall of getting the cancer in the first place… Is not giving a fuck about worrying about being struck by lightening not a valid reason to not care about something that may prevent a lightening strike?

                Even if something theoretically is OKAY or probably makes sense… I have worries about the government FORCING me to do it, as a matter of principle. I think now that more time has gone by the HPV thing seems to be ALRIGHT, as in probably a small positive good. But that’s no excuse for forcing people to take it if they don’t want to.

                1. I think now that more time has gone by the HPV thing seems to be ALRIGHT, as in probably a small positive good.

                  It’s significantly better than a placebo for most hookers and hypochondriacs.

              3. RE: 1 – This is acontextual nonsense. It wasn’t recommended at the time and the decision not to vaccinate half the carrier population means you won’t eliminate the virus. It was a clear and deliberate play to force relatively untested vaccinations on people and the doctors who developed the vaccines themselves effectively said as much at the time.

                RE: 2 – Fuck this noise. Are you going to deliberately take everything I say out of context? It’s not a contagious disease like measles and it’s categorized as an STD. It can’t be both an STD and widely transmissible without contact. Pick one you half-witted, ill-informed soccer mom.

                RE: 3 – You don’t seem to have the first clue. You can get vaccinated *voluntarily* at any time between contracting HPV and developing precancerous lesions. Attending HS is irrelevant. As a *matter of fact* the overwhelming number of cases where people contract HPV they *will not* develop cancer. About 1 in 5 people have high-risk HPV in the general population while well less 2% of the general population will develop cancer. The *majority* of cases resolve themselves.

                5. The vaccine prevents 95% of cervical cancer and 100% of anal cancer.

                Again, wrong. You realize your own stupidity in claiming this and “there is no screening test for anal cancer”, right? People who develop cancer don’t always die so, by your own lack of knowledge, there could be a massive population of anal cancer sufferers who don’t have HPV and we’d never know.

                1. This is from a So-Cal soccer mom, so what did you expect? I left So Cal because of idiots such as her. These are the same boneheads who believe that allowing illegals into this country who bring with them diseases that had been previously eradicated in the US are good for this country. Do you understand the level of stupidity she brings to this argument? No need to get all bent out of shape, “for they know not what they do.”

                  Best part: I now live in AZ and am NOT happy to have read about this police action. Enough is enough already! They need to feel our angst. I will be POUNDING on Rep Townsend’s door toot-sweet to have a discussion about the failure to protect our privacy. It will be civil, but it will not be a polite affair.

                  1. Project much? I’m probably more libertarian that you are, however I’m not stupid enough to believe anti-vaxx nonsense. Do you understand that anyone who travels internationally and is not vaccinated can bring back an otherwise avoidable disease. The recent outbreak of Measles in New York was traced back to 2 unvaccinated children who traveled to Israel, contracted measles and brought it back They then spread it to the community of un-vaxxinated chldren. They aren’t illegals. The US does not screen for diseases when issuing visas to foreign nationals who wish to enter the US. They aren’t illegals either, but keep blaming it on people entering the country illegally instead of the anti-vaxxers who are contracting and spreading disease.

              4. Would you prefer 15000 women diagnosed each year with cervical cancer or something as simple as a vaccine?

                I would prefer to leave the decision up to them. I certainly wouldn’t leave it in the hands of a know-nothing SoCal Soccer Mom. In any event, I wouldn’t trade the 15,000 who avoid a treatable case of cervical cancer for 15,000 who suffer untreatable adverse reactions to vaccines or 15,000 who forego regular screenings and develop another cancer because some idiot told them the vaccine was 100% effective at preventing anal cancer. A tradeoff like that would just be stupid.

                The vaccine prevents 95% of the cases of cervical cancer, 100% of the cases of anal cancer and an untold number of mouth, tongue, and throat cancers, hardly making the vaccine “pointless.”

                I didn’t say it was pointless. I said the risks have to be weighed against the known (and apparently factual) benefits. You’re an unmitigated idiot for arguing otherwise.

                1. So much stupidity in what you said.

                  First, anyone can report anything as a vaccine reaction. I’ll take a little tenderness at the injection site over cervical cancer any day. Second, women are being told not to get regular screenings. The recommendation is every 3 years. Third, you’re assuming cervical cancer will be caught early and it will be treatable. Doesn’t always work that way.

                  You did say pointless, go read your own post. Weighing the benefits, yeah, not getting HPV and/or cervical cancer outweighs a little tenderness at the injection site.

              5. The vaccine prevents 95% of the cases of cervical cancer, 100% of the cases of anal cancer and an untold number of mouth, tongue, and throat cancers, hardly making the vaccine “pointless.”

                No future event can be statistically demonstrated to have a 100% probability. That is not how statistics works. There are probabilities and margins or error. By using a statistic of 100%, you immediately cast doubt on any other number you present. With the small amount of knowledge I have of statistical confirmation, I am inherently skeptical of claims in excess of 90% as they typically fall into the “too good to be true” category.

                Being hyperbolic only convinces people who are already on your side.

            2. Soccer Mom, you’re just as much of a retarded zealot as those who refuse to get any vaccine. Each one is a treatment unto itself. Some are awesome, some are dodgy at best, some might even be more trouble than they’re worth for many people.

              To deny this is completely illogical and retarded.

        2. So it is perfectly logical to not risk hurting your kid by getting them a vaccination for something they will likely never catch.

          The problem with this sort of thinking is that the reason your kid is unlikely to catch it is because everyone is vaccinated. Its called herd immunity and its one of the reasons being unvaccinated is even a viable option in the US, but it only works if unvaccinated kids are a tiny minority

      4. Toddler. Maybe too young? There is a lower age limit, or was.

      5. The vaccine for Meningitis isn’t recommended until a child is a teenager, in advance of college… so how again does a child not “being vaccinated” (against what other than Meningitis?) have to do with it?

        And, what bonus did the pediatrician get the previous year from insurance companies for vaccinations?

        1. The BIG FAT BONUS!

          Ugh, found the loony who thinks doctors are getting rich from kickbacks offered by insurance companies.

          1. SoCal soccer….Oh my god, we all know that the pharm industry pushes meds *and*vaccines at every level; ads to consumers, pharmaceutical reps (Think Penny from Big Bamg Theory, that’s a real job) and paid for conferences for doctors, plus lots and lots of congressional lobbying. Pharm outspends the oil industry two to one. Stop being obtuse.

            1. Yep, we’d throw grandma under the bus for some free pens and a tuna sandwich drug lunch.

        2. Wrong. Hib vaccine is given at young age. Also, for the crowd, what is most common cause of death due to cervical cancer? You have 5 minutes?

          1. I know I know! Renal failure. Tumor gets big enough to block urine outflow. Now you know the rest of the story.

          2. She is referring to the meningococcal vaccine, not the Haemophilus vaccine.

      6. No 2 year old is vaccinated against meningitis so that’s a red herring. The first thing every anti-vaxer should learn is to lie when you take your child in for medical care because if you don’t, at the very least, they will take it out on the child. This is almost an example of the very most because no one was shot by the cops.

        1. The first thing every anti-vaxer should learn is to lie when you take your child in for medical care because if you don’t, at the very least, they will take it out on the child.

          You yourself cry that there was no proof that the mother was an anti-vaxxer. Blaming the parent for this shitstorm in any real way is granting leniency to a doctor who should have his license revoked.

          1. No, I didn’t address that at all. I said that no 2 year old is vaccinated against meningitis so the dr. was being a jerk when he sent them to the hospital. And I’m definitely not blaming the mom. I’m pointing out a technique that anti-vaxxers use to help protect themselves and their children against drs. who frequently try to punish them. Nice attempt at critical thinking though. I’m proud of you and I’m sure you’ll figure it out someday.

            1. No, I didn’t address that at all.

              You may not think you did, but you pose a catch-22 (maybe just expand the existing one).

              Nice attempt at critical thinking though.

              So, when asked if their 2 yr. old has been vaccinated against meningitis what answer, yes or no, is the anti-vaxxer supposed to give? What about the parent who may not in fact be an anti-vaxxer?

              I agree she may seem naive in hindsight, but the only people who I think wouldn’t in this scenario would be seen as absolute kooks from the normal temporal viewing angle.

              1. So, when asked if their 2 yr. old has been vaccinated against meningitis what answer, yes or no, is the anti-vaxxer supposed to give?

                I think the point attempting to be made is that the doctor was an idiot because 2 year olds are NEVER vaccinated for meningitis.

                And a doctor asking a mom that question is being misleading.

                1. Wrong, Hib vax given around age 1-2.

      7. In recent news, the Informed Consent Action Network (ICAN) and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. sued the United States government and won in an issue regarding vaccine safety. According to a legal document entitled, “Mandate for Safer Childhood Vaccines,” Health and Human Services (HHS) has openly admitted to not having filed any vaccine safety reports in over 30 years.

        1. YES!! Thank you, Truther!

      8. What rules? Do you have a 2-year-old child? Has that child been vaccinated against meningitis? I bet not. In the vast majority of cases, no one is vaccinated against meningitis until they are 11 and rarely then. If this child had a risk factor for meningitis then it is not in the story. Fevers for 2-year-olds are very common. So what is the cause of action in this case? If the doctor had a legit concern then why isn’t it in the story? If the doctor didn’t have a legit concern then the judge should return the kids to the parents and censor the doctor. When the state of arizona thinks it knows what is better for a child than the parents, there is a huge problem. If I were the parents, my first action would be to move the kids out of Arizona – that is absolutely outrageous. The second thing I would do is start collection funds and sue the socks off the doctor and the DCS worker for pain, anguish, and unprofessional conduct and the State of Arizona for employing such an incompetent boob.

      9. I hope that’s sarcasm, though this is the wrong place for sarcasm.

      10. She didn’t answer the door for TWO AND A HALF HOURS. All the mother had to do was answer the door, show the workers the child’s fever had broken and all would be well.

        Why are you simply assuming the child’s fever broke. Because the mother said so? How could the doctor know this? If the child had died because the mother had lied about the fever breaking, you’d be all over the doctor for not following up and making sure the child was safe.

        For subscribing to a site called Reason, folks here are pretty susceptible to emotional manipulation.

        1. Oh, for fuck’s sake!

          You don’t think the mother has a right to be left alone?

          Do you believe the mother is obligated to answer to the State for every decision she makes?

          Why do you not believe a mother knows what’s best for her child?

          You really are an emotionally triggered little Statist bitch.

          1. “You don’t think the mother has a right to be left alone?” – not if there’s reason to believe her children are in imminent danger as a result of her behavior or negligence.

            “Do you believe the mother is obligated to answer to the State for every decision she makes?” – Nothing the OP said suggested that.

            Why do you not believe a mother knows what’s best for her child?” – Not always. Does a doctor always know what’s best for their patient?

            “You really are an emotionally triggered little Statist bitch.” – cute. trashley is angry. bet you’re gonna go own the libs somewhere tonight, right?

            1. ITALS Yes, there was a suggestion the mother needed to yield to the state! The doctor clearly overreacted and the government overreached in this case. Our bodies are surprisingly resilient, but we act like every damn thing is the bubonic plague.

        2. I never answer my door after 8pm. In fact, I ignore it and pretend I heard nothing.

  2. Of course the state has to fuel, that their actions were lawful and appropriate when crlearly they weren’t.

    1. They waited TWO AND HALF hours trying to get the woman to answer the door before forcing entry.

  3. The doctor told her she should go anyway, so she agreed she would?but then she didn’t.

    Well, there you go. She violated The Social Contract.

    1. Never got mine in the mail…

    2. You’re not the boss of me!
      Seriously though, I’ve seen plenty of MDs that forget who is working for who. God complex and all that.

      1. The MDs know who they work for in a third party payment system: the insurer, who they bill directly and who pays them directly. If and when we go to single payer, there will be single customer and it ain’t going to be the patient.

        It might be a little better if the third-party payments were routed through the patient. In most cases you’d still end up letting the money through in the end, but the ability to question charges, delay payment, demand documentation, or even make them go to the trouble of going to court would make them respect patients a little more.

  4. the judge ultimately sided with DCS, ruling that the children’s removal was lawful and telling the parents “to remember that the state had them on a family-reunification plan and wants them to regain custody of their children.”

    The system always wins.

    1. The State wants you to have a crutch and they’ll break your leg to make you take one.

      1. What Jerryskids said. I’d like to cheer for the judge in this case, but then there’s that…

    2. That’s what the 2nd amendment is for.

      1. Right you are. There’s really only one solution to this type of nonsense, and it is not a pretty thought. Eventually, however, someone will need to stop this type of egregious behavior from happening.

    3. The proper re-unification plan is jailing the DCS workers, putting the police officers on probation, and sending fresh officers with the parents to pick the kids up from the foster homes.

      Not a “we misbehaved badly, so you’ll have to bow and scrap for weeks to get your kids back.”

    4. Of, course, the article deliberately leaves out the particulars of the hearing, even though it was open to the press, just like they deliberately gloss over the fact the mother didn’t answer the door for two and half hours with the police asking to see the child and make sure everything was alright.

      And you fell for the emotional manipulation.

  5. The children’s grandparents are undergoing a DCS review

    Serious question: Do DCS employees undergo a DCS review?

  6. Obviously the rational response was to expose the kid to even more immediate danger by making the family the subject of a kinetic SWAT raid. I’m mildly surprised they didn’t use any flash-bang grenades.

    1. I’m mildly surprised they didn’t use any flash-bang grenades.

      They probably were going to, but then realized they couldn’t claim to not know there were children in the home. No plausible deniability this time.

    2. I realize it takes careful reading because the article deliberately hides the fact, but the forced entry didn’t occur until after two and half hours of the mother refusing to answer the door, even after being called by the neighbor letting her know the police wanted to talk to her.

      A REASONED conclusion might be that perhaps the mother lied about the child’s fever having broken and was afraid to let the police see the child. Of course, this probably was determined during the PUBLIC hearing, but the article authors DELIBERATELY refused to include any details of that hearing in their article.

      Because this was a propaganda piece to push an agenda. And you folks, with your confirmation bias on warp drive, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

      1. Found the social worker.

      2. Stop trying to cover for the over reaction of the doctor then the SWAT team.

  7. One officer carried a shield, while another was described as having “lethal coverage.”

    Nice band name, even if it was just a diaper filled with shit.

  8. Your children are not your children they are the governments children and you only get to raise them as long as the government feels like. its actions like this that the 2A is for but so far nobody wants to have a fire fight in front of their kids thankfully as everybody learned the lesson well from the Waco experience. The government will kill children in order to save the children

  9. the title should say “Kid gets better but doctor wants him in emergency room anyway wasting more tax dollars”

    1. ^^This.

      Doctors have been jacking up the cost of Health Care with exactly these types of requests. When my oldest child was a toddler, she came down with a respiratory illness, and the doctor told us to keep her comfortable and to go to urgent care if she crossed one of several warning signs (fever that couldn’t be controlled with Tylenol, difficulty breathing, etc). Flash forward 4 years later when our next child had basically the same illness, and the doctors were sending us home with a big ass atomizer and albuterol treatments to “keep him comfortable”. (My child felt this treatment was as comfortable as water boarding). Flash forward 4 more years, and some friends of mine had the same illness for their child, and they were sent to the ER for oxygen, and then sent home with the same treatment regime.

      In less than a decade, we went from “keep her comfortable” to “Go to the Hospital and hook them up to a machine!”

      I don’t fully blame doctors for this. Because money is no option, their incentive is to spare no expense reducing even the tiniest risk. But they are part of the problem.

      If you have a young child, be very careful choosing your pediatrician. Talk with them for a good while and try to find the ones who believe that any time you undergo a medical procedure or go to a hospital, it introduces risk. Find the rare doctor who believes that sometimes a kid has to tough out an illness, and there is no substitute for chicken soup.

      1. I don’t fully blame doctors for this. Because money is no option, their incentive is to spare no expense reducing even the tiniest risk.

        That, and they’re piss scared of law suits if they don’t “spare no expense” or go to insane lengths to make absolute certain that they don’t leave themselves in an “actionable position” because they missed something.

        Take this very case for example:

        The doctor told her to take him to the emergency room, fearing that because the boy was unvaccinated, perhaps he had meningitis?a life-threatening disease.

        Meningitis is certainly no joke, and even though it’s quite rare the doctor was probably worried that if they had sent the child home with directions to make him comfortable and go to the hospital only if necessary (if specific lines are crossed, the fever doesn’t break, etc.), and the kid ended up dead from meningitis they could be sued.

        1. (cont’d)

          In fact, I have some experience with that exact thing happening. My sister-in-law lost a child at the age of 4 or 5 months. He had a fever of over 102 and the pediatrician just sent him home and told her to give him some baby Tylenol to try and break the fever. A couple hours later the kid’s fever had spiked to over 104. They rushed him to the hospital and sure enough, meningitis.

          So I can kind of see why the doctor was concerned, especially when you factor in the fear of law suits and need to CYA, however, getting the cops involved is never a good solution for something like this. They’re just lucky no one got killed.

          1. No doubt my profession must shoulder a considerable portion of the blame. Doctors have good reason to abhor lawyers.

            Nevertheless, libertarians have good reason to abhor busy-body, do-gooder, allopathic apotheosizing progressive MDs.

            1. As opposed to naturopathic or homeopathic busy bodies.

              1. Rarer than a Russian in the Donald’s draws.

      2. Part of it is also CYA… a decade ago, I had some lab work done. Turns out his staff didn’t handle the blood properly – so my doctor called me at 9pm telling me he would meet me at a hospital. Turns out it was out of network – they redid my labs which were all perfect. I was completely unsymptomatic and the kidney issues were completely inconsistent with anything in my history. I raised cane and didn’t pay a penny. Doctor SHOULD have had labs rerun but it was all CYA

      3. When I was a child, no one would have taken a kid to the dr. for this. Kids get sick. Kids get better. After you watch it enough, you know when it’s not getting better and then you’d call the dr. who would come to your house.

      4. Overt, I agree, and I apologize in advance for the pivot but….the same goes with vaccines and meds in general. Our great grand parents only had a few vaccines their whole life, and were considered “fully vaccinated” by the government. Now the count is up to I think about 54 injections containing around 70 doses* of vaccine by the time you turn 18. And if your little one is acting up in school, ya know probably wants to play like a normal kid should? Medicate them! Give them Ritalin!

        *Some shots are combination shots, in other words one needle stick gets you 3 different vaccinations like DTaP; Diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis.

    2. Uh, I’m sure the parents would have been given the bill.

    3. No, Title should say: Police force entry over child safety concerns after mother refuses to answer door for two and a half hours.

      1. Why are you spamming this in EVERY thread, dickweed?

        1. Because some government CPS agency pays him to do so.

  10. Stories like this make me wonder why more people don’t support libertarianism and small government.

    1. Because a solid half of them see the phrase “child was not vaccinated” or any other similar marker of out-group status and decide that whatever the gummint did to them was justified.

      1. Don’t forget: SAFE & EFFECTIVE ………(BS) ;^)

      2. While a bunch of others conveniently gloss over the fact the woman didn’t answer the door for two and half hours, or the article completely ignoring the proceedings of the public hearing, all because it feeds THEIR confirmation bias.

        1. Why is not choosing to answer the door a problem?

          Does she not have a right to answer it?

          You really are fixated on this issue which indicates a degree of mental illness and leads me to believe you are a danger to yourself and the general public.

          Somebody should do something!

          Stay where you are and we’ll send the State to get you the help you need.

          Don’t forget to answer the door, bitch.

          1. Once they got a warrant, she did not have a right to not answer the door.

            1. Guess you’ve never heard of nullification, statist.

        2. You know, we’re all aware she refused to answer the door for two and a half hours. We are also all comfortable with that, and don’t think it changes anything. So you can now STFU on that subject.

    2. Because a solid half of them see the phrase “child was not vaccinated” or any other similar marker of out-group status and decide that whatever the gummint did to them was justified.

      1. That and because a child was involved, that tends to short circuit a lot of people’s ability to use logic and reason. Even though the child was, I’m assuming, fine and didn’t have meningitis they immediately hop onto their Jump to Conclusions and conclude that these were “bad parents” for not following the doctor’s advise (which is another issue – people are far to quick to assume that just because some “expert” says something that it must be true).

    3. Because they never think it will happen to them.

  11. Soooo……does the kid have meningitis or not?

    Did any reporter go back to the doctor and ask “wtf? Was this your genius plan or were you just covering your ass?”

    1. That probably came out during the public hearing that the article author deliberately refused to detail. My guess would be probably yes, since the mother refused to answer the door for two and a half hours, even after her neighbor called her and said the police wanted to talk to her.

      The REASONable conclusion would be the mother lied about her child’s fever breaking.

  12. >>> fearing that because the boy was unvaccinated, perhaps he had meningitis?a life-threatening disease.

    feared, or diagnosed? also fuck that judge.

  13. You might speculate that Trump is just really bad at conspiracy, or that he is clever enough to understand that publicly inviting Russian hacking would make him look innocent.

    Or his friends know how to get a little Hackensack on his behalf.

    1. That reminds me, I was at a council meeting last night where the council passed the resolution that the Enviromental Commission had endorsed, and it looked like that council rep’s arm had healed completely.

    2. What does this story have to do with Trump? Did one of the parents have a MAGA hat on or something?

      1. Every bad thing has to do with Trump – where have you been the last few years?

      2. Trump is responsible for all children who are ripped from their mothers’ arms!

  14. “What about the parents’ rights to decide what’s best for their child?”

    Silly parents, they actually think their child is there’s and not the property of the State.

  15. “Remember, We’re not here to take away your kids!”

    Seems like the government spends alot of time doing what they say they are not doing.

  16. Do we have the name of this hero DCS worker or the doctor? I think this is good public information to know.

  17. Anti vaxxing and medicine denial is not good parenting and fuck Reason for trying to suggest that there’s such a thing as a right to kill your children.

    1. Sarc or stupidity?

      1. Notice the distinct lack of coverage on whether or not the child actually had meningitis. The viral infection can be fatal and it can also be contagious. Doctor had every reason to suspect it and you never would have seen this story here if the child died because the parents refused to act.

        1. Well, they went home and shortly afterward used the devil’s medical technology to take the child’s temperature and find that it was normal–something that wouldn’t happen if s/he had meningitis–before deciding not to attend the ER, so you’re full of shit.

          1. Surely you’r not expecting the dumb troll to actually read the whole story before commenting?

          2. And the doctor was supposed to know that how exactly? Hindsight bias isn’t an argument.

            1. Also, just because the fever went down does not confirm whether or not the child actually had meningitis.

              1. Per TFA: “Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.

                No normal person would react to that by calling DCS and saying that the parents were imminently going to harm the child. This doctor is some kind of crack, or ideologue, or both.

                1. Any normal doctor would do this. They specifically requested for the child to be examined and disappearance of symptoms doesn’t mean they’re cured, nor does it confirm whether or not the child had meningitis (or possibly spread it to others where the virus is still dormant).

                  1. source: wife is in medical school, both her parents are MDPHDs

                    1. That’s not a source. That’s a bias. You’ve outed yourself. Whatever the Dr. says must be obeyed. After all, they are gods!

            2. And the doctor was supposed to know that how exactly? Hindsight bias isn’t an argument.

              What’s the ICD-10 code for ‘Place call to DCFS’?

              1. Z62.21

                I’m serious.

            3. The doctor was supposed to know that because the mother told her.

          3. That’s what the mother SAID. And, then refused to answer the door to show the police and DCS worker her healthy child for two and half hours. A person might REASONably conclude the mother was lying about the child’s fever breaking.

      2. I think we have our answer.

        1. You almost won that argument, but I called you a troll. Heh, better luck next time bucko.

    2. I posted this above, but see again:

      Vaccinations as a general concept are fine… But frankly, 80-90% of the vaccines they try to get you to take nowadays are pointless. And averse reactions DO happen. So it is perfectly logical to not risk hurting your kid by getting them a vaccination for something they will likely never catch. I am of the mind that even if you want to vaccinate for some stuff waiting until the kid is a touch older and their immune system more established makes sense.

      I myself haven’t got shit since I was in middle school… No issues, of course.

      To add to that, I would probably have CAUGHT the flu more times from getting vaxxed every year than I have. I would have wasted a ton of money. With other vaccines, I would TOTALLY get some for weird shit if I was going to Africa or South America or something… But running around the northern USA, it’s a waste of time and money, and all I’m doing is risking a bad reaction from the rare (but they do happen) side effects of getting the vaccine in the first place.

      One CAN employ logic with vaccines versus thinking you either have to get EVERY SINGLE ONE that’s recommended, which has gone up like 10 fold from 20 years ago, OR you cannot ever get any ever. Common sense can work you through this whole thing pretty easily…

    3. Again; toddler. Was he unvaccnated because the parents are anti-vaxxers? Or was he unvaccinated because he was too young? Or because there is an age range and his parents preferred to do it later for any of a variety of ratiinal reasons?

      Because, IN GENERAL, f*ck anti-vaxxers. But there are vaccines for which there is scant need, and people for whom vaccines are inappropriate.

      1. Here’s the thing – the vaccine for Meningitis is supposed to be given to teens prior to starting college. It was inappropriate and against recommended schedule for a “child” to have it.

        So was the doctor penalizing the kid for not being vaccinated against something prematurely or had the mother chosen to skip some others?

        I don’t care if you choose to vaccinate or not – as long as you make an educated decision based on what’s best for YOUR child. After multiple reactions from vaccines when I was young that required hospitalizations, my doctor advised me not to get them. I had CP, measles and lived. I haven’t had the flu in 19 yrs now. I don’t want ANYONE to get vaccinated on someone like me’s behalf – I take care/responsibility of my own health. If a physician is unwilling to work WITH you, find a new one. I have fired way too many doctors who don’t seem to realize I have a say in my health care.

      2. Because, IN GENERAL, f*ck anti-vaxxers.

        IDK. Some are willfully ignorant and I don’t know any calling for them to be banned mostly or outright. And they have certainly exposed plenty of crypto-statists hidden among their opposition.

        Between passive,willfully ignorant anti-vaxxers and active, willfully ignorant statists I’m gonna side with the anti-vaxxers.

        1. I don’t know any calling for them to be banned mostly or outright.

          Maybe a distinction to be made between anti-vaxxers, non-vaxxers, normies, pro-vaxxers, and acolytes of the immune herd empire?

          1. IN GENERAL:

            FUCK ALLOPATHIC CUCKS

            1. FUCK ALLOPATHIC CUCKS

              *tips hat*

        2. Pretty much. Ignorant fucks on any issue are annoying… But because there are ignorant people does NOT mean you should fuck those that have valid reasons for being against something. Such is the case with vaccines. I’ll get a malaria vaccine if I’m going to Argentina… I’m not going to bother living in the Northwest. That is logical.

          1. Most anti-vaxxers are far more conversant with the subject matter than the typical MD.

            Can most MDs recite all of the ingredients in the majority, never mind all, the vaccines that have recommended?

            Can most MDs vouch for the ingredients in any given vaccine which is being administered to a given patient?

            Can most MDs articulate, comprehensively, and in detail, all of the evidence which has been arrayed which suggests vaccines are dangerous and / or ineffective?

            If they can’t, why should anybody listen to them?

            1. That’s a major thing with MDs, many of them ARE more ignorant of stuff outside their wheelhouse on tons of issues. Natural medicine (read mostly diet based stuff) can in fact work wonders for many patients far more than popping a given brand of pill, which is often the only solution a typical MD will offer.

              My dad cured himself of an incurable disease by changing diet and getting on a certain supplement regime. Modern western medicine is AWESOME for acute problems, but really not great for lots of other stuff, especially “life long” illnesses.

              I’m of the mind that people should take everything, from everybody with a grain of salt at all times. Just because somebody has an MD doesn’t change that for me personally.

      3. Well then you can inject all the mercury and aluminum your body can handle. Some of us read the inserts….

      4. Again; toddler. Was he unvaccnated because the parents are anti-vaxxers? Or was he unvaccinated because he was too young?

        According to the article, “The doctor asked if the child had his vaccinations. The mother said no.” So it’s not just the meningococcal vaccination that the kid didn’t have. The parents were either anti-vaxxers, or just not very conscientious about certain kinds of preventive care.

    4. If you actually read the linked article, it will be clear that vaccinations and “medicine denial” and meningitis are irrelevant to the child’s illness. The child did not have meningitis, nor anything children get vaccinated for.

      You want to rail against people who let their kids get measles, go ahead. That’s not this case.

    5. Awild, reductio ad absurdum much?

  18. The mother would have been on the hook for 5 figures of medical “care”. We need to have Medicare-For-All-Children.

  19. This is what happens when there is a nanny state and that is what the liberals (and progressives) want. They know better on everything from what to do with your money to how to raise your child. But if left unchecked the bureaucrats will wind up telling us when to get up, when to go to bed, when and what to eat. Every body will soon have a chart to live by telling them everything that they can do and when.

    1. But there will be no question your doing everything correct to optimize your existence and the furtherance of the state.

    2. But if left unchecked the bureaucrats will wind up telling us when to get up, when to go to bed, when and what to eat.

      Permanent childhood, IOW.

    3. Wait! Aren’t they already doing that?

  20. Why have children in the society?

  21. How did they find three foster families who would take children who possibly had meningitis or had possibly been exposed to meningitis?

    1. The foster families get paid – – – – –

    2. Shut up, they explained.

  22. I have a fever, and the only cure is … more woodchoppers.

  23. What was that he said? “You didn’t have that child”?

    1. No. He said, “It’s not your child”.

  24. These people are truly evil.

  25. That should keep the kids in nightmare land for the next few years.

  26. It would be most unfortunate if the names and addresses of all the DCS people, the judge, the doctor, and the cops were all accidentally made public. It would be downright awful if someone reported criminal activities at their homes such that SWAT showed up…

    Not that I’m advocating DOXing or SWATting anyone, it would be wrong.

    1. If the kid didn’t have meningitis, then the Doctor effectively SWATed the family and then DCS DOXed them.

      Turnabout is fair play?

      1. SWATed, sure, whatever. DOXed? Uh, no. It’s the family that went public with this, not DCS or the police.

  27. This is beyond horrifying and should be getting tons of coverage.

  28. I’m sorry, this just wouldn’t stand with me.

    I don’t have kids yet, but from what I know with how protective I am of my dog, I simply wouldn’t stand by and let this happen.

    If the state wants to take my kids, they’d better be ready to die for it.

    If the state somehow managed to take my kids when I wasn’t home, I’d take them back.

    My job in life is to keep them alive and well. I will not fail. I will stop anyone who attempts to get in my way.

    If they want to stop me, they’ll have to kill me. And they’d better remember that they spent hundreds of thousands of taxpayers’ dollars to make me a very efficient warrior.

    1. My job in life is to keep them alive and well.

      Honestly, in this situation, serving as an example in my death doesn’t look half bad either.

    2. “My job in life is to keep them alive and well.”

      Ignoring a doctor who tells you to take your child to the hospital for further medical treatment isn’t doing your job. This woman got lucky that her child didn’t suffer severe and life changing consequences of her failure to follow the doctor’s instructions.

      1. The odds of this child having meningitis were very slim. This mom wasn’t “lucky,” she was “right.”

        P.S. Soccer moms are the worst. Entitled busybodies, the lot.

      2. None of your business. The doctor was CLEARLY a control-freak, not unlike yourself.

      3. Ignoring a doctor who tells you to take your child to the hospital for further medical treatment isn’t doing your job.

        RTFA. He didn’t refer them to the hospital for further medical treatment he referred them to the ER because he didn’t know what the issue was and needed to cover his own ass. Even at that, plenty of emergency rooms will rightly tell you to stay the fuck out unless the kid’s fever is 101 or higher without other symptoms. They don’t need every case of norovirus tracking through their doorway while they’re trying to treat the elderly and otherwise already sick and injured. The doctor represents the very sort of incompetent mishandling that would breed an out-of-control healthcare burden in this country or any other.

    3. “If the state wants to take my kids, they’d better be ready to die for it.”

      Precisely – state busybodies need to understand that their jobs, nay, their very lives, depend on not pissing off the people they serve.

      1. You just insured that there is an FBI file on you, if there wasn’t already.

        You terrorist you!

    4. So, if the police knocked on your door and asked to talk to you about your child, would you answer the door and show them your child no longer had a fever, thank the doctor for his concern and say there was no need to visit the hospital, or would you refuse to answer the door for two and half hours knowing the police were on your doorstep because of a complaint you were endangering your child?

      1. I would say, “Fuck off, pig, and don’t come back without a warrant. It’s not my responsibility to prove to you that I’m a good citizen.” (I understand that they finally got a court order in this case. The article claims they knocked and announced their presence before breaking down the door. And maybe they did, but I’ve read enough stories about police who knock, wait about 2 seconds, and then make a “dynamic entry.”)

        1. I would also be on the phone toot sweet to the Home School Legal Defense Association, which has lawyers on call 24/7 for occasions just like this, so I could confirm that I was within my rights.

  29. They could have just brought some medics along to check out the kids.

    1. Exactly.
      If that “doctor” was any good, she’d have said to the mom “hey, I’m really worried – could I stop by after my office closes and take a second look?”

  30. Cheer when cops are shot in their fucking faces

    1. Well, don’t be a total tribalist. There are some good(ish) cops.

      1. Sure there are – the good ones knock politely and ask questions, in daylight.
        The bad ones kick doors in during darkness.
        The first type are easy to distinguish as cops and to deal with pleasantly.
        The latter type are home invaders to be killed.

        1. The police knocked nicely on the door for two and half hours while the mother refused to answer. I know the article author deliberately buried this in his story so it would be hard to find, but it’s there.

          1. They should have waited til the next morning. Kicking down the down in the middle of the night was to show those parents who’s boss. Oh, and put the child in real danger.

      2. Yeah, but 99% of cops give the 1% who are good a bad name.

    2. It’s the DOCTOR and the LAW that YOUR “representatives” legislated that are to blame. You’re a cop. What do you do? Obey the call or get fired. We have TWICE AS MANY LAWS AS WE NEED.
      .
      Oh, I forgot- we also live in the land of the STUPID.

    3. It’s the DOCTOR and the LAW that YOUR “representatives” legislated that are to blame. You’re a cop. What do you do? Obey the call or get fired. We have TWICE AS MANY LAWS AS WE NEED.
      .
      Oh, I forgot- we also live in the land of the STUPID.

      1. “You’re a cop. What do you do?”

        How about not sending in a SWAT team.

  31. The doctor told her to take him to the emergency room, fearing that because the boy was unvaccinated, perhaps he had meningitis?a life-threatening disease a rare disease (2-3 cases per 100,000 annually) for which a vaccine is not recommended for two-year olds, but which has a mortality rate of about 5% world-wide.

    FTFY

    Perhaps let readers assess the risk on their own rather than fallaciously put forth “life-threatening” as the correct descriptor for meningitis. Influenza has killed a shit-load more people than meningitis, but describing it as “life threatening” would be hyperbolic. Is a little research too much to ask? It took me 3 minutes.

  32. Heavy-handed actions like this will encourage parents NOT to take a sick child in for examination, might be the intentional since emergency rooms are so busy, but then again arrogance knows no bounds.

  33. Note to Reason and anyone who is actually a libertarian: If you have any desire to grow the movement, do not side with anti-vaxxers. Go down the rabbit hole of anti-vaxxers and you find people who deny science, believe diseases like polio and small pox are fake, deny germ theory, and think diet, nutrition, and home remedies can prevent/cure rabies, tetanus, polio, etc.

    1. Except a HUGE percentage of people, like me, that you would probably lump in with those people aren’t crazy… We have sensible, moderate positions on the subject. Every vaccine isn’t bad, but every vaccine isn’t necessary either. Not for all people anyway.

      So you surely can’t lump EVERYBODY together just because you’re too lazy to make distinctions.

    2. Libertarians should always side with freedom. Try as you might, you will never legislate the stupid out of people. You will, however, kill more of them than any disease in the attempt.

    3. If is soooooo safe then why does if need to be FORCED?????? Like rape………

      1. Because some parents obviously don’t care about their children, like these ones.

    4. Or have seen their children have horrible reactions and don’t want to chance it again.

    5. Also, stop engaging in emotional manipulation like this article did.

    6. Hey SoCal,After following the standard stupid US vaccine schedule, I watched my 2 year old descend into fits of unfathomable rage and he trembled like a leaf when he heard even soft singing. Everywhere we went in public he wore big ear muffs like from the shooting range. We got have all sorts of conversations about our son being on the autism spectrum with everyone we met.

      We stopped vaccinating at about age 2 and he has made a nearly full recovery. You watch your own bobber.

  34. There is another key piece of information missing. Since meningitis does not appear spontaneously, did the doctor have some reason to think that the child may have been exposed? Barring a known exposure, the doctor notified the hospital about a wild zebra while living next door to a cattle ranch.

  35. Whats sad is those klids will be molested and traumatized before they get home 🙁

    1. I hope the children don’t have an adverse reaction to being “brought up to date with the schedule” , that would be insult to injury…….

    2. Yep. The government is SO loving, isn’t it?

  36. I did not read it anywhere? Did the child have menengitis? The flu? A cold? An ingrown toenail? HPV or another STD? It appears as though the answer is No. So at the end of the day, whether her logic was correct or not, the Mom’s instincts where 100% accurate. And her kids were taken away from her. If she had her child on ritilan or lexapro, the state would say she is a model parent. We have a serious problem in this country where people believe their judgment is better than yours and therefore you need to be forced to use their judgment.

    1. “”We have a serious problem in this country where people believe their judgment is better than yours and therefore you need to be forced to use their judgment.”‘

      Indeed.

      They believe their perception is your reality. They are extremely self-centered and have little use of opinions outside of their group.

    2. “A DCS investigator, a former police officer, took the stand. She said upon visiting the hospital, doctors found the toddler had RSV, a respiratory virus that can cause serious illness in young children.”

      1. But that investigator’s testimony should probably be taken with a grain of salt. According Wikipedia: “In the United States, 60% of infants are infected during their first HRSV season, and nearly all children will have been infected with the virus by 2?3 years of age. Of those infected with RSV, 2?3% will develop bronchiolitis, necessitating hospitalization. Natural infection with HRSV induces protective immunity which wanes over time?possibly more so than other respiratory viral infections?and thus people can be infected multiple times. Sometimes an infant can become symptomatically infected more than once, even within a single HRSV season. Severe HRSV infections have increasingly been found among elderly patients. Young adults can be re-infected every five to seven years, with symptoms looking like a sinus infection or a cold (infections can also be asymptomatic).”

        So, yeah, RSV *can* cause serious injury, just like climbing trees *can* lead to broken bones and death, but I wouldn’t call DCS on parents just because they let their kid climb a tree.

  37. So guns in the hands of hot headed people is bad and get people killed.

    But hot heads busting in with guns over child issues, knowing children are present is ok.

    Where is the anti-gun crowd on this?

    We need to ban guns for the children, but it’s ok to pull guns on children over trivial matters if you are an agent of the state.

    1. Obviously, the parents were not harmed heavily enough – the children were scarred, possibly for life, and none of the police died in the attempt.

      If my local police ever have questions for me, I’d expect a polite knock during daylight, backed by a local warrant if they are looking for something. Any action beyond that should generate an armed response. This is why America was formed – resistance to arbitrary search and seizure (the stamp act).

      1. *were not ARMED heavily enough*

    2. Remember Elian Gonzalez!

      1. I do.

      2. I do too.
        They stormed into the home of American citizens with armed men and tore the child from his extended family.
        The extended family that the boys mother died in order to get her son to.
        They did this for political reasons so that the Justice Department could return a child to an abusive home life of forced ownership by a communist totalitarian state.

        1. So you are against fathers’ rights? Elian was an illegal alien, btw.

        2. Abusive home life? Prove it.

  38. The Informed Consent Action Network (ICAN) and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. sued the United States government and won in an issue regarding vaccine safety. According to a legal document entitled, “Mandate for Safer Childhood Vaccines,” Health and Human Services (HHS) has openly admitted to not having filed any vaccine safety reports in over 30 years.

  39. It’s a Progressive tenet with long precedent that the government has ultimate authority over the welfare and education choices of children. Parents only have those rights allowed by the government. The government knows best, and parents should not get between the government and their children.

  40. I see this play out on a regular basis; where health care and children are the issue, everything has to be tied up in a box with a pretty, or at least serviceable, bow on it. Nothing can be left unaddressed on anyone’s watch or the medical professional is, in their minds, abetting neglect. So inevitably one thing must lead to another so every concern is covered. Laws and regs l[mandatory reporting] encourage this, as does a sense of responsibility to ensure that everything on one’s list of concerns has been dealt with.

    So child protective services gets called often whenever someone does not present as a good patient or care taker.

  41. Holy fuck has this country gone mad.

    Anyone want to bet against me that the children will be returned only after having been vaccinated by the State?

    1. And after the parents have reimbursed the State for the cost of those vaccinations.

  42. Time to sue the doctor, DCS, the hospital, the cops, and everyone else whose goal was to remove the parents’ parental rights.

    1. There’s no right to endanger your child.

      1. Not taking your child to the ER after his fever has broken ? endangering your child.

  43. What part of the homeowner’s right to gun down the home invaders isn’t clear here?
    Home invasion and assault of those minors is plenty of reason for the parents to KILL the invaders.
    If I was that grandparent, I wouldn’t be bowing and scraping to the DCS, I’d be HUNTING them.
    It’s a thankless job, because so often, it is not done right – at what point did any of these power drunk “public servants” stop and think about the people they are serving?

    If the child suffers from neglect, charge the parents, PROVE IT, and then let the judge decide.
    The mother reporting that the fever had broken, when kids frequently spike temporary fevers, should have been sufficient for that doctor. The doctor needs to be named and shamed, and lose her customers, and maybe her license.

    1. What part of the homeowner’s right to gun down the home invaders isn’t clear here?

      That there is no such right when the police are acting in accordance with the law.

      1. Especially when the police exercised significant patience in trying to get the woman to answer the freaking door for two and a half hours before forcing entry.

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  45. Fucking Gestapo, indeed…

  46. Once again we see the horrors of what unbridled power granted public employees can do to innocent children with wholesome parents.

    The arrogance of the “doctor” is unfathomable. It is the antithesis of the Hippocratic oath we used to believe all physicians subscribed to.

    But why should we be surprised? In a time when a male is not a male and a female is not a female and ‘marriage’ is granted state legal sanction between any two same gender people who want to publicize their private behavior and a newborn baby may be legally murdered in NY state and the Commonwealth of VA is it a wonder that parental obligations and the commensurate rights necessary to fulfill them are violated.

    1. Wholesome parents? Lol.

  47. Due to the “unvaccinated” condition of the child, it’s a good bet the parents were “undocumented”.

  48. Find the DCS employee who ordered this. Kill them. Kill their kids. Kill their parents. Kill their pets. Next time DCS will not behave this way.

    1. You’re demented.

  49. CPS makes a lot of money kidnapping children under false pretenses from good families and selling them to rich pedophiles in Hollywood and DC.

  50. I have heard that, when some people discover individuals that belong to an endangered species on their land, they will kill the animal and burn it. “Horrid and abusive!” you say. But those people do that horrible thing, because you, being the owner of land that is about to be CONFISCATED BY THE GOVERNMENT, have absolutely no choice, that is, unless you WANT to lose your home and property.
    .
    NOW, we face conditions that WILL CAUSE people to stay away from DOCTORS, the reason for which is clearly explained by example in this article.
    .
    AREN’T WE LUCKY TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT LOOKING AFTER US?

  51. Just yesterday I was arguing in favor of suing, rather than shooting. There is one exception: a parent’s instinct to protect children. Don’t try such antics in MY home.

  52. In every state in this country when you get a state issued marriage license, you are allowing the state to be the third party to the marriage. It’s not just you and your beloved, it’s you, your spouse and THE STATE! That’s how they can go in and take your kids for any reason they feel is valid and that’s why you are sometimes asked by authorities if you are legally married. It’s also probably why celebrities have children together but don’t marry. That way they can do as they please without interference. They don’t need anyone’s approval or permission and they can raise their children any way they want.

    The solution is to file an affidavit with the court divorcing yourselves from the state in which you were married. See a lawyer for details.

  53. This violates our highest American laws in many ways and it happens all the time. I have a real solution but very few listen to me. Regardless, i intend to fix my part of the world, those who want to help me are welcome. Christians only.

  54. Vaccines should never be forced, anyone who thinks otherwise does not belong in America (or on earth).

  55. Simple solution; dont have any kids, and then there’s less handle for the govt to have on you.

    1. Or, following that thinking, do the thing that hurts them even worse and kill yourself, amirite? “One less slave for YOU, slavers!!”

  56. Kudos to the doctor. He clearly felt the child was in danger. The state reaction however was over the top. A polite knock on the door and request that she take the kid to the hospital would have been more than enough.

    1. Sending a recovering unvaccinated child into a germ infested emergency room is not Kudos, it’s malpractice.

      The parents were stupid not to vaccinate, the doctor was even more stupid… and the doctor should know better.

    2. Fuck off, busybody.

    3. The article author did his best to bury it in the article, but the police did precisely that, and the woman refused to answer or respond for two and half hours, even after being called by her neighbor.

      It is MUCH more REASONable to assume the woman was lying about her child’s fever breaking.

  57. 1) The child was 2. In the US, Meningitis vaccine is only recommended for high risk Teens.
    2) If the child is feeling better, it is unlikely meningitis.
    3) The emergency room with all of its assorted microbes is likely to seriously harm to an unvaccinated child.
    4) A person recovering is in a weakened state increasing the risk of emergency room microbes.
    5) Risk of the emergency room probably far outweighs possible harm from whatever he is recovering from.
    6) If the child had meningitis, which is highly contagious, the SWAT team has now been exposed.
    7) The parents were smart enough to bring the child to the doctor, this contradicts child endangerment.
    8) For a child of 2 to run a high fever (but below 103) for a short time is actually not unusual and usually not dangerous.

    The parent should sue the doctor for malpractice and DCS.

  58. So American children can be taken away from their parents (by a SWAT team no less) for not being vaccinated, but illegal immigrants can’t be separated from whatever unvacinnated children they arrived with because that would be evil.

    Got it.

  59. Years ago when my toddler developed a high fever (104.2), I took him straight to the local emergency room. I was there for two hours AFTER they put us in a room, and they did nothing (I kept asking for help). Not so much as ibuprophen or tylenol to bring his fever down. I went to the nurses station and called another hospital and asked (so the nurses would here) if my son would get treatment for a high fever there. Five minutes later, they finally bring some ibuprophen. When the doctor finally came, he said “Oh it’s viral, just treat the symptoms and use ibuprophen to keep the fever down.”
    My kids are grown. I don’t go to doctors anymore. The medical field has become a tool to control the population and to make the medical industry sick.

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  61. What’s the doctor’s name? And the social worker? Their as much a part of this story as the parents, with their over zealous persecution of this family, why do they get to hide in anonymity?

    1. Because all policies and procedures were followed?

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  63. I hope the parents get a lawyer and sue the Doctor, the DCS and the police officers who participated. Into bankruptcy. Parents are best equipped to take care of their children, not a bunch of thugs armed with the power of the state and deadly force. Were this a legitimate concern, it could have been handled w/out the show of deadly force and the taking of the children. It’s absurd on its face and the fact the DCS wanted the hearing to be secret is proof. They knew what they did was over the top and that citizens would see that and be horrified. Absolutely disgraceful.

    1. The mother didn’t answer the door for TWO AND A HALF HOURS. Even after called on the phone by a neighbor who said the police are here and want to talk to you.

      1. Legally, she doesn’t need to answer the door. I guess you’re suggesting that this caused the cops to get their panties in an uproar.

        1. Legally, she doesn’t need to answer the door.

          True.

          But if you tell someone “better come back with a warrant!” and they camp on your doorstep for a few hours, you should know that’s exactly what they’re doing.

          And lets be clear, refusing a wellness visit for a child who the doctor fears has a life-threatening illness? That’s an easy call for a judge.

      2. So if I want to break into someone’s home, the only justification I need is to knock on their door for a few hours?

        Hello, big screen TV!

        1. If you get a warrant, sure. But warrants typically say what you can seize, so make sure that TV is evidence.

          Seriously, this wasn’t a no-knock raid without warning, this is actually by-the-books.

  64. Very misleading headline. Should read “Mom Ignores Doctor When Her UNVACCINATED Sick 2-Year-Old Starts Feeling Better, Child Services Send a SWAT Team”. That one word changes the context completely.

    1. No, the better headline would be: Police force entry to home over child safety concerns after mother refuses to answer the door for TWO AND A HALF HOURS

      1. In Houston they’d have shot the child, parents and dog.

    2. Nah. The vaccine thing is mostly a red herring. It’s a detail people are latching onto ’cause it’s a political gold mine, but it’s not actually that important.

    3. Why not “Selfish Jew mom ignores licensed Christian nationalsocialist doctor when her Sick 2-Year-Old Starts Feeling Better, Child Services Send altruist SWAT Team.” If the idea is Credere Obbedire Combattere, why not be upfront and consistent about it?

  65. If the mother were Jussie Smollett, would the SWAT team have invaded the home?

  66. Good to get a preview of government-run health care.

    “If you like your SWAT team you can keep your SWAT team.”

  67. Socialism kills, indiscriminately.

  68. For a site called reason, this article was pretty full of emotional manipulation.

    Why didn’t the parents answer the first knock?

    What happened when the neighbor called the mother and said the police wanted to talk to her?

    The initial police contact was 10:30 PM. The forced entry was 1 AM. That’s 2.5 hours with police on the front door. Why did the mother refuse to answer the door for 2.5 hours?

    The court proceedings were open to the press. Why didn’t your article cite the particulars of the hearing?

    This article isn’t an example of reasoned argument, it’s a propaganda piece.

    1. So, one must jump when the storm-troopers knock?

      1. Credere Obbedire Combattere!

    2. “Why did the mother refuse to answer the door for 2.5 hours?”

      Her reason is none of your f’ing business, fascist.

      1. Her toddler had a 105 degree fever. She was committing child neglect/abuse by not taking the kid to the emergency room simply because she didn’t want to pay for it. Government had every right to step in here. Parents are their children’s guardians, not their owners.

        1. Fuck off, you bootlicking, statist asshole

        2. Her toddler did not have a 105 degree fever at the time of the pig invasion, or for seven hours before that. (From the Arizona Republic article: “Shortly after 6:30 p.m., the mother called the doctor and told her that her toddler no longer had a fever so she wasn’t taking him to the emergency room.”) The crisis was over. End of story. Everything after that was officious intermeddling by the doctor, the court, and DCS.

  69. Time to give some overzealous bureaucrats time to reflect on their actions in the graybar hotel.

  70. Soooo, the 3 kids get dragged out of the house at night, at gun-point, via a court order. Now, I sort of understand this from a doctor’s point-of-view, but the parent is saying the fever is gone. That should be enough to not require a laser-sight, door-bust, kidnapping.
    And I’m not 100% sure I’m okay with the officers complying with this order.
    But notice how the article never mentions that the sick kid was taken immediately by ambulance to the hospital, or by “CPS officials”? Nowhere in the story! That’s critical info!

    CPS is FAMOUS for justifying their existence by letting perpetual abusers kill their kids and then going ape-shit on normal families.

    1. The police tried to get the woman to answer the door for two and a half hours before forcing entry.

      1. “Officer Tyler Cascio wrote in a police report that he knocked on the door several times but no one answered.”

        It doesn’t say whether he identified himself as police and that he was executing a court order, but it doesn’t seem that he did. Be that as it may, he had no business being there in the first place.

        1. Be that as it may, he had no business being there in the first place.

          Are we now arguing that wellness visits are inappropriate?

          Or are you arguing that the warrant wasn’t legitimate?

          1. Wellness visits to see my kids are inappropriate if I didn’t ask for them.

    2. Yeah, the linked article also doesn’t mention that the other two children were sick and sleeping in soiled beds, that the toddler in question still had a fever of a hundred, and that the parents refused to talk to the police for hours before they finally broke down the door.

      It’s almost like it’s a sympathetic article leaving out a lot of details.

      1. To be clear, there are other articles on this incident that do include further details regarding that home situation. But Reason chose the article most sympathetic to the family they could find.

      2. That’s not what the linked article says. What it says is: “Inside, they [the cops] found a juvenile who said she was sick and had thrown up in her bed. Officers said the home was ‘messy’ with clothing piles and concrete floors. In the parent’s room, a shotgun lay next to the bed, according to police records.”

        It doesn’t say “the toddler in question still had a fever of a hundred.” It says, when reporting on the court hearing: “Attorneys for the parents . . . said the child’s fever had gone down, as evidenced in medical reports.” If you don’t believe the parents (as Fr Gough repeatedly says he doesn’t) then you can believe the lawyers, since lying to the court could cost them their licenses.

    3. The parent could be lying, TangySpicy.

  71. All this over a mass of cells lacking viability. Wish to hell the left would attempt consistency.

  72. Baby had a 105 degree temp. not just above 100. (spinal meningitis) Also the police found the other 2 children in the home were sick also. Their beds were covered with vomit. Parents are kooks.

    1. Any evidence of this?

      While that would be sad if true, from a civil rights perspective it is irrelevant. If this woman wants to endanger her children, that is her right. However, if she truly is an illegal (as has been insinuated) then what she did may have served the principal purpose of protecting them. After all, what kind of life would they have in the care of the state if they had survived, but their parents were deported? Surely, even illegals can better care for their children than an American foster home.

      What this is about, regardless of circumstances, is a parent’s right to make medical decisions for their children and raise them as they see fit. It is not the place of the government to force medical treatment on children, or assign custody of children.

      1. If this woman wants to endanger her children, that is her right.

        Only to a degree. The child has rights too.

        That said, you can find other articles. The Arizona Republic one linked by Reason doesn’t identify the family, but I found an NBC article that identifes the mother as Sarah Beck and the father as Brooks Bryce.

        It’s gone the other details DPeoria gave, and really under-cuts the family’s claim that everything was fine.

      2. “If this woman wants to endanger her children, that is her right”

        – wtf is wrong with you? It is not, and i hope if someone observed you endangering any child, they smack you around accordingly. What kindof POS thinks endangering children is a parent’s right? Seriously- reconsider your life and whether it’s worth continuing.

      3. John Oliver, do parents have the right to kill their kids too?

        You make libertarians look bad.

  73. Overreach by social service agencies and social workers puts the real victims of abuse at increased risk. The real abusers are almost never caught, but average families are viciously assaulted in pre-dawn military-style incursions into private residences by police that are charged to protect and serve. The police have become power-hungry, abusive, violent, and all-too-willing to follow illegal orders from their bureaucrat superiors.

    What the police and social services have in common is the belief that they are infallible, and that they are universal forces for good. They hold the implacable belief of the aesthete: That what appears good is good, and what appears, if only superficially, to be evil is evil. Today’s colloquialism for this is White Knight-ism. This system is the inevitable result of vain, shallow people with low IQs being given a badge and a gun. It is the reason, amongst many reasons, why people are increasingly deciding to defer indefinitely the decision to have children.

    Ultimately, what good is it to have children if one cannot raise them in an environment free from interference by the State? What good is private property if it is prone to confiscation by the State? What good is the First Amendment if it can be flouted by a corporation?

    1. “Ultimately, what good is it to have children if one cannot raise them in an environment free from interference by the State?”

      – children aren’t your property and you should not be able to raise your kids as you see fit with no interference or supervision. Some parents are awful, abusive, and negligent. Kids are living, breathing human beings who, while not quite full adults, certainly aren’t property to be treated as you see fit.

      The problem with parents is they think they’re infallible and only they know what’s best for their children. Just like the police and social services, they are mistaken.

  74. I wonder how many parents are now going to be afraid to seek medical help for their children because of this incident…

    How many will die needlessly because parents are now (rightly) going to hesitate to so much as take their children to the doctor.

    When I was 3, I accidentally scolded myself by spilling hot tea that had been sitting on the kitchen table on my chest. My mother called the doctor and asked if she should take me to the hospital. The doctor (this was back in 1992) told my mother that that would be inadvisable, as it would undoubtedly trigger a social services investigation, and to bring me to the pediatrician’s office. Turned out, all I needed was some ointment and the burns healed quickly.

    I am very glad that my mother didn’t panic, because if she had, my brain would have been turned to scrambled egg by the forced druggings that foster homes are renowned for, and I never would have seen my parents again. American foster homes are perceived by the pharmaceutical industry as fruit ripe for the picking.

    Parents with half a brain know what a danger the social services pose and avoid encounters with them at all costs. If you love your children, you’ll keep them away from the social services.

    1. my family fostered three kids who had been removed from their biological parents. mother had allowed the kids to be beaten, they had seen her have sex for drugs, they had been given alcohol and illegal drugs, were neglected, living in squalor etc.

      There is absolutely a reason for social services to exist and they benefit many children greatly.

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  76. The miningitis vaccine is not given to children until they are at least 11 years old. Something else was going on.

  77. Not sure why the SWAT team was involved, but they should take that kid and the others, and give them back once she agrees to vaccinate them. If you don’t have a medical, science based (anti-vaxer faux science) reason to endanger herd immunity, the state should be able to force you to vaccinate.

    Officers fund a juvenile inside throwing up, a sh*thole of a residence, and a shotgun next the bed just sitting out. These were not parents of the year just minding their own business when Leviathan came along. Was excessive force used? Absolutely. Should they kids still have been taken by DCS for vaccinations at the very least? Heck yes. There’s nothing libertarian about a made up right to raise children dangerously and negligently because you have some crazy religion or pseudo-scientific beliefs. Children are not property.

    1. WOW. This site isn’t very libertarian anymore… But you’re even less so.

      1. yes, libertarianism means you can endanger your children, others, and let them live in squalor, because freedom? or property rights?

        Children are human beings and have rights. Parents can violate those rights. Therefore, third parties can interfere when appropriate.

  78. the toddler ended up having RSV when s/he was admitted to the hospital – a respiratory virus. Police had been called to that home for domestic violence before. Juvenile found vomiting inside. Shotgun next to father’s bed. Doesn’t sound like this family would make a good Norman Rockwell painting.

    1. because they owned a shotgun? because their kids get sick sometimes? things happen. doesn’t mean thugs should get to kick in your door and kidnap your kids.

      1. If you refuse to take a child with a 105 degree fever to the emergency room on doctor’s expert advice, you’re neglecting your child. Government has the right to step in in that situation.

        1. Even if the fever has broken and the kid’s temperature is not almost back down to normal? Oh, I forgot: only trained medical personnel can take accurate temperatures, so take that kid to the ER. (And we wonder why health-care costs are so high.)

  79. All your children belong to us.
    – Big Brother

    1. Even the ones you’re not actively endangering. We’ll kidnap them as well, and get away with it too.

  80. This is behavior by law enforcement. This is how law enforcement earns it’s increasing deleterious reputation across America – they are earning it and defended and supported by arrogant unions and unthinking imbeciles.

    In the day of news papers and local radio the earned reputation was more localized to a town or a county. In today’s Internet all law enforcement across the nation is tainted and stained by “Shameful Professionalism.”
    The men in this Video are the ones who pridefully call themselves “professionals”.
    Think of this – if the parents had rightfully tried to stand there ground these “Professionals” could shoot and kill the parents for resisting and been exonerated.

    If you disagree with these comments then send the “Professionals” an “attaboy”

    Beware of Elected Officials, and social workers with no kids, and Cops with no kids – they have no skin in game and are not invested in the Future and find being a Fascist Power monger appealing – and yes theses types are fine attacking families – never thought that a Red State owns your kids though – so what happens when the state has control? How many vaccines are they forcing without parental consent?

    When it comes to Constitutional rights Arizona is a collapsing society once your state owns your children over a fever and can dig in its heels not to give them back after the fever has broken – Socialism is entrenched.

  81. So? This is the socialized medicine comandeered, enforced and administered by faith-based prohibitionist community SWAT teams “BOTH” parties voted for. Why is anyone acting surprised?

  82. Abolish CPS, just in case. If it saves even one child from the terror of a 1AM SWAT raid, or seeing their puppy shot, it will be worth it.

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  85. Remember, we only have “choice” when it comes to killing our babies. Anything else is subject to the approval of the state.

    1. So we should have choice to kill our toddlers?

      1. Fuck off, troll

  86. what April implied I’m taken by surprise that a mom can profit $6755 in 1 month on the . did you look at this site link

  87. People hear the horror stories. Trigger happy SWAT team shoots anything that moves. Unarmed kid gunned down in a hotel hallway, crawling, begging for his life. Shooting dogs behind fences. Being asked to do a wellness check then killing the person they are checking. Killing Donald P. Scott while trying to steal his land… People have valid reasons to be afraid of cops. Unlimited power and no accountability. Qualified immunity need to end.

  88. I see Family Court decisions and often believe that those on the bottom of their class in college/university and (particularly) law school are the Judges in Family Court.

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  90. The child actually had a fever of 105 during his visit to the doctor. That is why the doctor said the kid needed to go to the emergency room. Evidently, anarcholibertarians believe parents have the right to neglect their children, as children are property rather than human beings. These parents cared about costs over their child’s welfare.

    1. Yup 105 is near shutdown fever. Kidneys, brain, rhabomyolysis,

      The doc made one mistake. Should have called 911 now. Transport from the outpatient facility.

  91. Fortunately, guns being pointed, nobody was hurt, spelled SHOT, guns tending to discharge by themselves, shame on them. The interesting question is,or so it strikes me, is the following. Has anyone, the police or this DCS apologized to the parents for their actions, might antics be a better term? By the way, I wonder as to why the child had not had available inoculations. Might the parents be more of those “anti vaxers”?

  92. I’m going to guess that if the doctor ‘hadn’t’ reported the mother and the child had died the legislature has it that she would have been personally libel, not to mention having her license revoked.

    The main point here is that personal discretion is removed from every player and once the first domino falls, so must they all.

    You used to hear the phrase, “…if it will save the life of one child… ” Ok, this child was saved you irresponsible, short sighted second-guessing bastards!

    1. Anarcho libertarians are crazy. I’m a minarchist libertarian. Government has the right to take kids away from negligent parents.

      1. But who gets to decide what negligence is? Today it may be child has a fever, tomorrow gun owners or people who refuse to get the next new shot that is even less effective than the flu shot.

      2. So miniarchists are bootlicking statists….who knew. Fuck off.

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  94. Was it a real doctor, a(n) NP, or some other “noctor”? The female MDs can have inferiority complexes, like most of the non-doctors.

  95. We’re from the government, and we’re here to help you….

  96. Just a little FYI, here is what is in Hep B vax, straight from the CDC website. “Each 0.5-mL dose contains ***aluminum***salts as adjuvant (not more than 0.85 mg aluminum by assay) and 4.5 mg of sodium chloride. Each dose also contains ?100 mcg of residual 407 ***formaldehyde***…..” the list goes on but I will stop there. In case it wasn’t obvious the asterisk emphasis is mine. Keep in mind babies as young as 6 weeks (and I believe some times right after birth) get hep B vax. My wife pulled our son’s record and tells me his was given at birth.

    1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886 Aluminum toxicity. “Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science’s understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans. In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.”

    2. Let me make a correction the CDC website links to the FDA for the vaccine data sheet. My apologies. https://www.fda.gov/downloads/ BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ ApprovedProducts/UCM241874.pdf

  97. I’m just giving some examples of why parents and people in general question vaccines (the *temerity* of those people!). https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/ vpd/hepb/public/in-short-adult.html#who I’ll copy and paste here for you if you can’t follow the link;
    You should get the hepatitis B vaccine if:
    You have sex with or live in the same house as a person with hepatitis B virus infection.
    You have sex with more than one partner.
    You seek care in a clinic for sexually transmitted diseases, HIV testing or treatment, or drug treatment.
    You are a man who has sex with other men.
    You inject drugs.
    You have a job that involves contact with human blood*.
    You are on the staff of, or a client in, an institution for the developmentally disabled*.
    You are a hemodialysis patient or have end-stage renal disease.
    You have HIV infection.
    You are a dialysis patient.
    You have chronic liver disease.
    You have diabetes and are under age 60.
    You live or travel for more than 6 months a year in countries where hepatitis B is common
    You seek care in a clinic for sexually transmitted diseases, HIV testing, or drug treatment.
    You are a prisoner in a correctional facility.

    1. I had to chop the above link into 2 pieces (I put a space after “vaccines/” and “vpd…..” so that Reaons comment box would take the link….the system didn’t recognize it as a hyperlink, and I’m not a computer tech geek to figure it out. )

      But the point is, where, oh where in that list does it make sense to put aluminum and formaldehyde and all the rest directly into an infant’s blood stream?

    2. Oh yeah, and by this point, the mother should be blood tested to know if hep b is a risk for the baby.

  98. VACCINE GESTAPO – Original rock protest song by #2 ranked indie rock band in Seattle on Reverbnation
    Free streaming link
    https://tinyurl.com/y4j5xspw
    Song Lyrics
    “They’re a medical military priesthood Just like Adolf – they preach the greater good
    Conscientious objectors are just little snots
    Why don’t you quit complaining and go get your shots?
    Vaccine Gestapo Vaccine Gestapo Vaccine Gestapo Vaccine Gestapo
    Can we see your papers have you had all your shots?
    Your papers please, your papers please, have you had all your shots?
    Vaccine Gestapo Vaccine Gestapo Vaccine Gestapo

  99. I blame people like the news and Remy’s anti-freedom, pro vaccine video for things like this happening.

  100. Your children belong to us.

    The mother over-reproduces. Three kids are now farmed out, one left in her tummy. Ways over the limit of one.

    We need a one child policy. When the woman refuses to obey order, the extra kid in her womb will be terminated with or without her consent. If she escapes detection until delivery, then the kid will be “born dead”, or sent to people who can’t produce a kid of their own. She will not be allowed to have a glimpse of the kid, or informed where the kid is sent. The state will receive a fee from the adopting parents. We can copy the law from the Chinese.

  101. Best argument for shooting judges, cops and DCS workers I have seen…..this week.

  102. We’ve gone from baby steps to an uprising to a full out sprint.

  103. As someone else mentioned — the “doctor” was not a real doctor. He/she was a “naturopathic” doctor.

    Naturopaths tend to discourage immunizations so dollars to donuts this is a wanna-be with little experience with 2 year olds and a history of discouraging immunization who had to play C(My)A in case they blew it with this kid.

    The mother CALLED the doc and told him the kid was better. Yeah yeah — she said she would take the kid ?. WHY? Because the naturopath thought she was lying? Because the mother (who apparently has 2 other kids) didn’t knw what they hell she was talking about?

    Because ED docs (real ones) don’t have anything better to do than field CmYA calls from naturopaths which contradict the mother’s in person observations?

    If Arizona is stupid enough to license naturopaths and give them this kind of power, and give CPS SWAT team powers for this kind of situation they should allow citizens the right to sue their pants off.

    And the judge? Don’t get me started on the judge ? putting kids into FOSTER HOMES because a mother read a thermometer and her kid was acting normally? Talk about child abuse and traumatizing the kids.

    Why it took so long and a phone call couldn’t have settled this to start with blows my mind.

  104. All your children belong to us!
    (repeat in Romanian)
    DCS Fascists should receive the same treatment as the Ceausescu’s.

  105. Unmentioned in this deceptive article was that “over 100” meant a 105 degree fever, which is a medical emergency.

    Still, SWAT was inappropriate unless the police had strong evidence that they would be opposed by force.

    Also, I would hope there was a court order and not just an opinion by a CPS bureaucrat.

    1. Unmentioned in this deceptive article was that “over 100” meant a 105 degree fever, which is a medical emergency.

      I call bullshit on this. Check out what the Mayo Clinic (https://mayocl.in/2Ub3XHh) says about fevers in children:

      “When to seek medical advice for a child

      “If your baby is less than 3 months old and has a fever, it’s important to get medical help immediately.

      “Seek medical care if a child of any age shows any of the following:

      “–Fussiness, or acting abnormally, which doesn’t improve even after taking medications to bring down the fever
      “–Signs of dehydration, such as no wet diapers over eight to 10 hours, crying without tears, a dry mouth or refusing to drink any fluids
      “–Stiff neck or a headache
      “–Abdominal pain
      “–Trouble breathing
      “–Rash
      “–Joint pain or swelling

      “Also get medical help if the fever lasts more than five days in a row.”

      Did you see anything about taking your kid (older than 3 months) to the ER any time he/she has a fever of 105? Me neither.

      1. and you think this is an exhaustive list? like, you really think there are no other scenarios that would require medical attention in this context? Are you really that naive?

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