Why Are Democrats Silent About the Dreamers?

Democrats should negotiate a partial wall for Dreamer deal

One of the issues conspicuous by its absence in this government shutdown is the fate of Dreamers. The last time the government

Jonathan MacIntosh via Foter.com

shut down in January, it was over them. This time, Democrats, allegedly their great champions, have said not a peep on their behalf.

Misguided as Trump's wall is, the smart thing for Democrats to do would be to give him some money for it in exchange for legalizing Dreamers and those he kicked off "temporary protected status." The fact that Trump can't credibly blame Democrats for the shutdown this time has given them an unusually strong hand to get what they couldn't in January. Why aren't they playing it?

Go here to find out.

Comments

[A Lady of Reason]

Well, they never cared about the dreamers. Just their agendas and who they can use to get them...
https://aladyofreason.wordpress.com/

[Echo Chamber]

Why are the Dems suddenly so concerned about pissing away money?

[Brian]

They're concerned with screaming "racism!" as often as possible. They don't really care about deficits.

[Earth Skeptic]

Well, since Trump seems to like deficits then Democrats have to oppose them.

[Jerryskids]

Because Trump will be the one pissing away the money. They keep insisting Trump's unwilling to compromise but Trump's big beautiful 30-foot high wall stretching coast-to-coast* has already been compromised down to a few billion dollars worth of fencing and the Democrat's idea of "compromise" is "we'll agree to tell you what to do if you'll agree to do what we tell you to do."

*That experts believe would cost several hundred billion dollars because they don't know Trump's MO of hiring illegal immigrants and stiffing the contractors which would reduce the price to a small fraction of that.

[Friendly Fascist]

Trump's Wall is the very first time I have seen a credible movement of people offer to crowdfund a government initiative.

Did anybody offer to crowdfund the wars? PPACA? Title IX restructuring?

No. But they are offering to crowdfund the Wall.

That's how popular it is. And the Democrats won't give up 1% of the budget for it.

[Marty Feldman's Eyes]

That's how popular it is.

Yes, it's so popular it's raised not even .00001% of its price tag.

[Friendly Fascist]

That's in what, a week?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Yes, in a week. So, in about ten million weeks years the yahoos will have raised enough meth-smeared dollar bills to pull it off!

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

So, in about ten million weeks years the yahoos will have raised enough meth-smeared dollar bills to pull it off!

Several hundred of which passed through Arthur L. Hicklib's wallet.

[Donald Jay Grump]

MOAR humiliation for Red Rocks White Supremacy!

Top pollster finds nearly 60% of Americans now want Trump IMPEACHED or CENSURED.

Poll taken BEFORE Trump fucking lied to our frontline troops. Can there BE any more shame to the Presidency?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown. He'll be putting my name up on his Enemies List for the third time soon.

[Donald Jay Grump]

Top pollster finds nearly 60% of Americans now want Trump IMPEACHED or CENSURED.

Poll taken BEFORE Trump fucking lied to our frontline troops. Can there BE any more shame to the Presidency?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano still melting down.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano still melting down.

[damikesc]

Hyper-popular Obamacare would generate how much crowd-funding?

[Donald Jay Grump]

(laughing at the goober)

The same Obama now ranked the most admired man in THE WORLD by Americans?
Obama beat Trump two years in a row! LOL

[damikesc]

The same Obama now ranked the most admired man in THE WORLD by Americans?

Splendid. The relevance is, of course, lacking.

[Donald Jay Grump]

That was ridicule. And just as irrelevant as yours. LOL

FACTS
Obama is more popular than Trump
And Obamacare is more popular than the border wall.

OBAMACARE IS FUNDED. DUH
REPUBLICANS FAILED TO DEFUND IT. TWICE DUH
GOP FAILURE TO HAVE A LONG-PROMISED ALTERNATIVE HAS MADE OBAMACARE MORE POPULAR THAN EVER. DUH

You people can't stop losing. All your FAILS are having an impact
And all his other FAILS. Nearly 60% of Americans now want Trump impeached or censured.

Anything else?

[damikesc]

That was ridicule.

Oh, that is what you call that?

Intriguing.

[damikesc]

And, yes, I am quite aware that this is ANOTHER Hihn sock puppet.

[Donald Jay Grump]

And, yes, I am quite aware that this is ANOTHER Hihn sock puppet.

cowardly diversion.

ALSO NOT RELEVANT! (SMIRK)

[Donald Jay Grump]

That was ridicule.

Oh, that is what you call that?

PROVED IT!!!!

[Nardz]

Fuck off, Hihn

[Donald Jay Grump]

(shuddering in fear)
NOT

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano still melting down.

[damikesc]

Did I not nail that quickly?

[Ellis Wyatt]

He kicked your ass. Three times.
Goobers bellow victory when they fuck up. Like Trump does.

[sharmota4zeb]

Americans normally crowdfund the War on Drugs and pay taxes to fund the other side of that war.

[Donald Jay Grump]

OFFERING?
bwaaaaaaa haaaaaa

[SIV]

I shouldn't read twitter but I believe ENB is on there arguing a Black man has no rights a white woman is bound to respect, or something.

[SIV]

It's worse than that...

[Ken Shultz]

You got a link?

[SIV]

It's complicated.

Kinda starts here and then ends up here.

[Weigel's Cock Ring]

I told her right there in the roundup about a week ago or so that she desperately needs to wean herself off Twitter because it's driving her deeper and deeper into insanity by the week.

Her friend (or co-worker or beard) laughed, but it's obvious, isn't it?

[$park? The Misanthrope]

So nothing at all like what you said. At all.

[SIV]

Some people will try and avoid the obvious racism component and chalk it up to Liz's intrasexual rivalry with the younger, much more attractive and successful Kat Timpf. Your choice.

[$park? The Misanthrope]

That must be why Ms Timpf updated the NRO article to say that everything in the article is fanciful bullshit.

[$park? The Misanthrope]

PS - I suggest you go back and actually read what you linked to.

[Tu­lpa AKA "feeling smug"]

Hey look, you're bitchily scolding people again.

[Trigger Warning]

Sure she is.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Has Trump offered a reliable prospect of comprehensive immigration reform? Why not avoid uncertainty -- and who is going to rely on Pres. Trump? -- by waiting a couple of years? I see little reason for Democrats to waste effort, expend political capital, or sustain risk in this context.

[Friendly Fascist]

Yes - a points-based immigration system, eliminating chain migration, eliminating lotteries...the Administration is already comprehensively changing the system.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Do you dumbfucks figure Trump should cave on the wall quickly, and look like a blustering loser, or should he wait a few weeks, so he can look like Speaker Pelosi's whimpering bitch-boy?

I'm content either way.

[sharmota4zeb]

You mispelled "bitch-boi".

[Donald Jay Grump]

She's kicking his ass, regardless of spelling.

[Fats of Fury]

Like you, at her age she couldn't even lift her leg,

[Donald Jay Grump]

(laughing at the infantile pussy)

Nearly 60% of Americans now want Trump impeached or censured.

[Donald Jay Grump]

Yes - a points-based immigration system, eliminating chain migration, eliminating lotteries...the Administration is already comprehensively changing the system.

ANOTHER goober thinks Trump is a dick-tater.
Oh, another fascist.

Hey, Sparky, he NEGOTIATED $25 million for a border wall, in return for Dreamers, then HE broke his own deal asking for shit that YOU ARE PROUD OF!!

Bellowing FAILS for Trump, why should it work for a nobody like you? YOUR scheme is how he LOST a $25 million wall!
Large majorities if Americans OPPOSE a border wall, and FAVOR amnesty for Dreamers.
TOP POLLSTER TODAY: Nearly 60% of Americans want Trump impeached or censured

Listen to the people. You had ALL the power and still lose.

Left - Right = Zero
THIS is why libertarians have opposed both for 50 years.
Now joined by a growing majority of Americans.

Buh-bye losers.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown. He'll be putting my name up on his Enemies List for the third time soon.

Dumbfuck Hihnsano's IQ = Zero.

[Donald Jay Grump]

TOP POLLSTER TODAY: Nearly 60% of Americans want Trump impeached or censured

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown.

Somebody is! LOL

Goober says PROOF = bitch fit.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano still melting down.

[ChuckNorrisBeardFist]

You do know Obama deported more illegal immigrates than Trump?

But let's go in the wayback quote machine/

? What Changed?! Chuck Schumer 2009 kicks Chuck Schumer 2018 right in his badoobies on illegal immigration
?Twitchy, today.

? "Trump took to Twitter on Thursday to remind Democrats that even former President Barack Obama spoke out against illegal immigration. Trump dug up a 2011 tweet from former President Obama which said: 'I strongly believe that we should take on, once and for all, the issue of illegal immigration.' 'I totally agree!' Trump wrote, retweeting the former president."

?The Daily Caller, yesterday.

? Harry Reid in 1993: It's insane to reward illegal immigrants by giving their children birthright citizenship.

?Hot Air, October 30th.

? Bill Clinton warns of "the large number of illegal aliens" coming into America, and explains his crackdown at his 1995 State of the Union address.

?Instapundit, January 31st, 2017.

[Alan Vanneman]

If the author would bother to read the papers, she'd know that Nancy and Chuck thought they had a deal with Trump along these lines, announced in the press Sept. 13, 2017, when suddenly Trump started adding conditions. Please remember that Trump really doesn't give a damn about the wall. All he cares about is "controversy", with him in the middle. He much more enjoys "demanding" the wall than he would building it. The only thing Donald Trump wants to build is the tallest building in the world, with his name on it, in the largest letters in the world. And maybe a pyramid. You know, the largest pyramid in the world. With his name on it.

[SQRLSY One]

^ This man gets it! Gets what makes The Donald tick! Like a ticking bomb, waiting to do something REALLY stupid, just to get more attention!

[Ken Shultz]

If Trump doesn't care about the wall, he certainly seems to care about keeping his campaign promises--and the wall is a campaign promise. It's almost like he plans to run on his record.

You know who else kept his campaign promises?!

[Earth Skeptic]

Jesus?

[Trigger Warning]

Not so far.

[Friendly Fascist]

lol yep. Jesus isn't the best example.

I'll just go full-bore Godwin and say Hitler did a lot of what he said he would do

[SQRLSY One]

"...--and the wall is a campaign promise."

Trump also promised that the Mexicans would pay for it all... Either he does NOT care about keeping campaign promises, when he makes such crazy, unrealistic promises, or he is utterly delusional when he thinks that he can "make" things like this happen.

PS, vote for MEEEEE, and I will cause all people everywhere to start acting according to NAP, and being good Libertarians!!!!

[Ken Shultz]

This isn't the only promise he's made, and if he fails to keep it, it sure as hell isn't for lack of effort on his part.

Incidentally, there's an argument to make that if the Senate ratifies the NAFTA revision, the concessions Mexico has made will effectively pay for the wall. If Trump isn't beating the drum on that point yet, it may be because he doesn't want to give the Senate an excuse to vote against ratification.

P.S. Trump promised to renegotiate NAFTA, and he did.

[Donald Jay Grump]

there's an argument to make that if the Senate ratifies the NAFTA revision, the concessions Mexico has made will effectively pay for the wall

Yeah, but it's been ridiculed all over, on both the left and the right. Umm, you need to subtract our concessions. And account for our demanding more higher wage autoworkers, which ... errr ... increases car prices!

If Trump isn't beating the drum on that point yet

You really are clueless. He TRIED beating the drum, but it exploded in his puss.

Trump promised to renegotiate NAFTA, and he did.

He caved -- again -- to only minor changes, because his base swallows anything, He gave what he got. A win-win for all parties, little -- if any -- net gain. You really need to learn what "a deal" means.

But he'll give you a cookie for claiming otherwise!

[Donald Jay Grump]

he certainly seems to care about keeping his campaign promises

LAME
He flipped AFTER he was threatened by Coulter and Limbaugh. What a pussy.
(Trump. too)

He also promised to pay off the entire debt in 8 years.
Instead, he ADDED more new 8-year debt ALREADY, than Obama did AFTER 8 years!
The only President to EVER increase the deficit by over 45% ... in a single year ... in a booming economy.

And all his other FAILS. So nearly 60% of Americans now want Trump impeached or censured.

He did tell us you'd lie to defend him of even murder, in broad daylight, with witnesses.

And YOUR God even LIED to our WAR-ZONE troops, about their pay .. AGAIN bragging that he'd achieved something that never happened. We know why he has no shame. Why doesn't his base?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown. He'll be putting my name up on his Enemies List for the third time soon.

[The Last American Hero]

And yet the knuckleheads at Team Blue haven't figured out how to work this to their advantage.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Trump either caves quickly or caves after Democrats take control of the House. Seems like advantage, America's betters.

[Alan Vanneman]

Speaking to the troops in Iraq, Donald Trump told them that they hadn't gotten a pay raise in 10 years, but now he had gotten them a 10% pay increase. In fact, U.S. troops have gotten a pay raise every year for 10 years (surprise, surprise) and they might even have known that Trump proposed giving them a 2.1% raise, which the Congress then increased. Did Trump think the troops were so dumb they wouldn't know he was lying? No. He doesn't think that way. He doesn't think about his "audience". He tells stories to himself about how wonderful he is, because that's the point: Donald Trump is a wonderful guy. If he had kept talking for another 10 minutes, he'd have told them about the time in Vietnam when he shot down a helicopter with a bow and arrow and got the Congressional Medal of Honor for it.

[Friendly Fascist]

I am sorry, but it is you who is in fact lying.

See, people don't consider COLA to be a pay raise - it's simply an adjustment for inflation. Trump was talking about a substantive pay raise. Period.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

To which 10% substantive pay raise do you refer -- the illusory one or the make-believe one?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

To which 10% substantive pay raise do you refer -- the illusory one or the make-believe one?

Probably the one Arthur L. Hicklib received from that one good weekend begging on the street corner.

[Donald Jay Grump]

GOOBER ... TRUMP LIED ABOUT A 10% PAY INCREASE.
Lied to our troops on the front line.
Shame on you, too.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown. He'll be putting my name up on his Enemies List for the third time soon.

[Donald Jay Grump]

GOOBER ALERT

Friendly Fascist
Trump was talking about a substantive pay raise. Period.

HE FUCKING LIED ... to troops on the front line. Period.
And you defend it??

[Ken Shultz]

I'd love to think that the shutdown is principled for the Democrats in some way, but it isn't really about immigration. Trump shut the government down over keeping a campaign promise, and the Democrats shut it down in an attempt to prevent Trump from keeping that promise. This may seem to be about immigration, but it's really about 2020.

That might give us a clue about why the Democrats aren't pushing for Dreamers. I'd compare it to the Republicans' passion for repealing ObamaCare (including the preexisting conditions exclusion) right up until the moment they had the means to actually do it. Some issues play better in the speculative abstract than they do in reality. The question now is--if they offered Trump some Dreamers' legislation and he actually signed it, how would that play in 2020?

It wouldn't do much for the Democrat argument that Trump is a racist, that's for sure. It wouldn't deny Trump the ability to argue that he kept his promise to build the wall. It would deny Democrats' the high ground on fighting against the wall if they agreed to it. Meanwhile, if Trump could credibly blame the Democrats for DACA, well that probably doesn't play well in the rust belt, swing states that both Trump and his challenger need to carry in order to win in 2020.

[Ken Shultz]

Again, the Democrats aren't fighting for any principle, here. They're posturing for 2020. DACA isn't about to win the Democrats any support from the swing vote in swing states that voted against the Democrat last time--in no small part because of the Democrats' stance on immigration issues. No matter how we slice it, the fact is that what plays well in deep blue states like California and New York is unpalatable to swing voters in swing states.

Does being pro-immigration play well with the center anywhere in the developed world right now?

[SQRLSY One]

The Democrats don't want to legalize the Dreamers, because that would threaten Social Security. As is now, the Dreamers will prop up the system, but not be able to draw from it, to the tune of $10 to $12 billion per year.

THEY PAY INTO our Social Security system, without letting them get any bennies from said payments? AKA, we the native-born are the shameless moochers off of the hard-working illegal sub-humans, in this particular case, in the billions of dollars.

See "The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes" (in quotes) in your Google search window will take you straight there, hit number one... AKA http://www.theatlantic.com/bus.....es/499604/ For details about us natives mooching off of the taxes of the illegal sub-humans?

[Friendly Fascist]

DACA recipients are work authorized and therefore eligible for an SSN.

If an illegal is "paying into" Social Security, they are doing it with a stolen SSN.

Moreover, the IRS is so lazy they'll give the illegal the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) if the illegal uses a TIN to file a return.

Combine that with illegals' extensive use of social services (through their citizen-children), and no, we are not "moochers." We pay a fortune for illegals.

[Ken Shultz]

Usually, I'd agree with you that we shouldn't buy into the hyperbole, but, in this case, The Atlantic is confirming the worst of our preexisting biases--so how can it not be true?

[SQRLSY One]

From the cited link...

"We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010," Gross concluded in a 2013 review of the impact of undocumented immigrants on Social Security.

We only hear what we want to hear, it seems to me... Yes, "stolen" SSNs... PLEASE go ahead and "steal" from me, the ability to prop up my retirement for me, by working your ass off for me, as you being a tax slave who won't benefit from the program!

[Friendly Fascist]

OK, and? How does that refute the rest of the costs I outlined?

You don't realize how much of a pain in the ass identity theft is. There are people out there who spend years trying to un-screw their stolen identities.

I can find $12 billion in the budget to offset illegals' contributions if illegals are chucked out of here and prevented from working.

We need national E-verify. It works. It will let illegals' self-deport.

[Trigger Warning]

Fedgov run or private?

[Friendly Fascist]

I'm fine with either, just so long as we get it started. We can improve on it after it's implemented. I've seen it up close and in person and frankly, the FedGov one runs pretty well. Seriously.

[SQRLSY One]

The typical case of the illegal sub-human "stealing" a Social Security Number is just that... An SSN in isolation. They don't steal your name and address and bank account number to go with it. They may randomly make it up.

From the link again, right up top...

"Whenever employers send in W-2 forms that have Social Security numbers that don't match with anyone on record, the agency routes the paperwork to what's called the Earnings Suspense File..."

It is true that illegal sub-humans burden the local schools and emergency rooms, via unfunded fed mandates. Local matters... But at the fed level, SSN makes out like a bandit on this. So the feds have the incentive to take over the authority over the illegal sub-human SSN slaves, and PRETEND to be all fierce about enforcing the laws, and sticking the locals with the shitty end of the stick.

[Friendly Fascist]

we're generally in agreement, but $10-$12 billion per year for Social Security is simply child's play. SSA pays out $1 Trillion in benefits per year. If anyone is claiming SSA is reliant on the illegals' payments, they are lying. SSA had a $44 billion surplus in 2017.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

We need national E-verify.

How exactly do you plan on implementing this?

Would you make it a crime for me to hire my neighbor's kid to mow my lawn unless I first check his citizenship papers via some government database?

[Tu­lpa AKA "feeling smug"]

"Would you make it a crime for me to hire my neighbor's kid to mow my lawn unless I first check his citizenship papers via some government database?"

Because that has anything to do with the actual issue being discussed.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

You didn't answer the question. Should it be a crime for me to hire my neighbor's kid to mow my lawn unless I check his citizenship status via some government database?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

if illegals are chucked out of here and prevented from working.

Notice how this sort of demand tends to be presented in the passive voice. As if by magic these things will just happen out of sheer force of will.

"Chucking illegals out of here" means the state taking active measures to check everyone's citizenship papers. Hassling everyone, both citizens and non-citizens. And of course those of certain ethnicities will suffer more scrutiny than others.

These things require imposing coercive government force, not to mention taxation, upon *everyone*, both citizens and non-citizens. Why don't you begin with detailing what kind of coercion you wish to visit upon everyone.

[Tu­lpa AKA "feeling smug"]

""Chucking illegals out of here" means the state taking active measures to check everyone's citizenship papers. "

Do you not understand what e-verify is? Or what the concept of self-deportation is?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

It is already illegal for a business to hire an undocumented immigrant. What do you plan on doing? Make it more illegal? Businesses that flaunt the current law, will somehow totally obey a new law that makes them use a government database to check the legal status of their new hires?

It's starting to sound a lot like the arguments that the gun grabbers tend to make. "Those bad guys with guns, who flaunt all the current gun laws, they will be totally restrained by just one more gun control law!" No they won't, and scofflaw businesses that hire undocumented immigrants won't be deterred by one more immigration law either.

The status quo is obviously unacceptable to the border restrictionist crowd, and the ratchet of enforcement only goes one way, so yes I do think, sooner rather than later, if the border restrictionists get their way, we will have mandatory national ID cards that everyone will be forced to carry on them to prove their citizenship status.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

if illegals are chucked out of here

Also notice the dehumanizing rhetoric used to refer to illegal immigrants. They are like some unwanted baseball that is to be "chucked" over the fence to where it presumably belongs. Illegal immigrants are human beings, just like you are a human being. Illegal immigrants deserve respect for their fundamental human dignity, just like you deserve fundamental respect for your human dignity. One reason why the border restrictionist crowd gets so much pushback is that much of the rhetoric used by the border restrictionist crowd to describe these migrants is dehumanizing and objectifying in this manner. Stop thinking of them as some lower species of human. They are equal to you and me and everyone else in terms of their basic humanity.

[Tu­lpa AKA "feeling smug"]

"Also notice the dehumanizing rhetoric used to refer to illegal immigrants."

No, I won't. I'm not playing that stupid fucking SJW game anymore. Your feelings about how something is discussed are a waste of time and you should keep them to yourself.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So it's SJW-ism now to refer to strangers respectfully?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Treating people with respect, isn't exactly radical left-wing Marxism. It's called good manners.

[$park? The Misanthrope]

It's called good manners.

Take a moment to understand that you're explaining this to an insult sock.

[SQRLSY One]

I hope that Tulpa will be caught somewhere wandering around aimlessly after having gotten too drunk, and then robbed, including being robbed of his ID card. The ICE people who catch Him Who Has No Papers will then randomly pick a nation to "chuck him over the fence too", since his lack of papers clearly shows that he is an illegal sub-human. North Korea might be willing to take Tulpa off of our hands, without retaliating with TOO many nukes "chucked over the fence" at us in return... For "dumping" our toxic pollutants on them, of course...

[Donald Jay Grump]

How much BULLSHIT can Enemy Fascist spread on a single page?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Far less than Dumbfuck Hihnsano's spread in a single shitpost.

[Earth Skeptic]

Democracy is a bitch, especially during campaign season (which is pretty much all the time). Have pity on the poor elected officials who struggle to figure out what voters really want, and how (and when) that differs from what they say they want.

[Rich]

deportations ... will demoralize the Democratic base already sour from all the deportations that President Obama conducted.

"Obama never deported anyone!"

[Inigo Montoya]

True, he never did-- not a single one! He also stopped all that horrible surveillance on everyone, and he immediately pulled US troops out of all those places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, et al.

What a wonderful saint he was! If only he could have been declared president in perpetuity!

[Donald Jay Grump]

Hey Goobers. Obama had the most deportations ever,
Behold the IQ of a typical Trumpster.

[Friendly Fascist]

The fact that Trump can't credibly blame Democrats for the shutdown this time

I should know not to read Dalmia any more, but is this a joke?

Democrats refuse to give 1.2% of the budget. That's it. $5 billion is a rounding error.

Democrats do not want a wall because walls work.

[Ken Shultz]

He already had $1.5 billion.

They closed the government down over $3.5 billion.

They're probably in danger of painting themselves into a corner over this. Trump has little to lose politically over keeping a campaign promise. And if the Democrats can't give in to spending $3.5 billion because their base in California and New York won't let them, . . .

If they can't compromise on $3.5 billion in acknowledgment of swing vote realities because the radicals in their base in California and New York won't let them, then their balls are in a vice come 2020.

It was amazing that the Democrats didn't learn anything from losing the rust belt in 2016. If they still haven't figured it out by 2020, it'll be (amazing)^2.

[Friendly Fascist]

I think, as you probably do, that they are captured by their base.

They are not going to figure anything out, because they listen to the loudest voices on Twitter too much.

I saw a Democratic nominee for Congress call Trump a white supremacist. Absolutely no normal person reads that and thinks, "oh yes this is normal rhetoric." They've lost their fucking minds.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

If one must be captured by a base, better the Democratic base or the half-educated, superstitious, gullible, addicted, economically irrelevant, bigoted, disaffected, downscale Trump base?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

If one must be captured by a base, better the Democratic base or the half-educated, superstitious, gullible, addicted, economically irrelevant, bigoted, disaffected, downscale Trump base?

Probably the base that doesn't consist of NPC hicklibs spouting their programmed responses.

[Donald Jay Grump]

Liars! PSYCHO liars!!
Trump negotiated a deal for a $25 border wall ... and HE broke it.

So he LOST $20 billion for border security/

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown. He'll be putting my name up on his Enemies List for the third time soon.

[Inigo Montoya]

"Democrats do not want a wall because walls work."

A wall certainly worked pretty well in East Germany until it was taken down.

And do you know what East Germany was called? The German Democratic Republic, or GDR for short. Funny how one of the most oppressive governments of modern times reminded us of both the democratic and republican parties in its very name. Coincidence?

[Friendly Fascist]

This isn't the Soviet Union so...

Build the Wall one-way for all I care: make it a cliff facing the Mexico side.

The comparisons to the Berlin Wall are childish nonsense.

[MatthewSlyfield]

"A wall certainly worked pretty well in East Germany until it was taken down."

Except it wasn't just a wall. There was a minefield inside the wall, a second fence line with razor wire, men in towers with automatic weapons at regular intervals and dog patrols along the inside fence line.

[MatthewSlyfield]

Oh, and people still got out of East Germany.

[Jerryskids]

Why are Democrats silent about the Dreamers? The same reason Republicans are silent about the deficit. The only issues they care about are campaign issues. Once the election's over there's no need to keep pretending you care about the issue at all. Give it a year or so until Campaign 2020 gets rolling and it'll be an issue again.

[wreckinball]

Because they oppose Trump
Period nothing else matters

And it takes a special kind of idiocy to not recognize walls and fences are a part of border security

Google security fence

Gee are the providers and consumers of these products nuts?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

And it takes a special kind of idiocy to not recognize walls and fences are a part of border security

America became a great country without the dumbass wall. It will continue to be a great country after Trump caves on that wall and his bigoted supporters are forced to confront their impotence.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

America became a great country without the dumbass wall

Yes, it involved several actions that dumbshit hicklibs wet themselves over.

[Social Justice is neither]

It also became a great country without SS, medicare, medicaid, and the host of other social welfare boondoggles your kind demand. So get rid of those and we'll talk, until then you have nothing meaningful to add.

[Inigo Montoya]

They are silent because they suck. The dreamers are simply a political football: they're a nice talking point when one is necessary and can be conveniently shoved aside when they don't fit the current rhetorical agenda.

I wish people on both sides would wake up and kick the duopoly to the curb. It's as if the those two old street gangs, the Bloods and Crips, were in charge of everything, and all the statist idiots were taking sides, convinced that one of the two gangs was thoroughly decent and the other was pure evil, when in reality both are just a bunch of criminals that are nearly indistinguishable from each other.

[Friendly Fascist]

Dude, please.

What side gives libertarianism a fair hearing? What side elects Ron and Rand Paul? And Thomas Massie? And Justin Amash?

What side gave us a President who said, "the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism"?

Let me ask you this: if I told you that you needed to set up an information booth, and go to both the DNC and the RNC, and try to sell small-l libertarianism, where do you think you'll get respectful engagement? Where do you think you're getting 90% of your converts?

libertarians need to realize the Right Wing is by far the friendlier place for your beliefs.

[Inigo Montoya]

Sure, the same way the Mafia is a safer/more respectable group of criminals than say, MS13. If you accidentally get lost in a Mafia neighborhood, and you stop and ask some don or capo for directions, chances are he will simply point you in the right direction. Try that in an MS13 neighborhood and you'll probably lose your wallet and get knifed.

Does that mean you want the Mafia in charge? You want them as your leaders just because they are not quite as terrible as a violent street gang (until you cross them or fall behind in your protection payments)?

[Friendly Fascist]

Let's see: friendly neighborhoods where people are polite or neighborhoods where I get knifed asking for directions....

Yeah that's a real dilemma.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Our friend here seems to be calling for a joint meeting of

Libertarians For Statist Womb Management

Libertarians For Authoritarian Immigration Policies

Libertarians For The Drug War

Libertarians For School Prayer

Libertarians For Torture

Libertarians For Government Gay-Bashing

Libertarians For Militarized Policing

Libertarians For Big-Government Micromanagement Of Ladyparts Clinics

Libertarians For Violent, Immoral, Right-Wing Israeli Belligerence

Libertarians For Creationism In Science Classrooms

Libertarians For Attacking The Wrong Country

Libertarians For Endless Detention Without Trial

Libertarians For Massive Military Spending

Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, anyway.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Arthur L. Hicklib's programming seems to be going haywire.

[Dillinger]

elected assholes and the brainwashed who vote for them are different types of people ... the ones coming to (L) from (R) are the voters not the power-mongers ... to somewhat agree with you

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Rand Paul and Thomas Massie get elected only when they start sounding like Republicans. The moment they start sounding like actual libertarians, they get kicked to the curb. Witness how Rand Paul's colleague dunk on him the moment he actually takes a principled stand to oppose the government's intervention in Syria. Who called Rand Paul a "Russian stooge" again? Thomas Massie himself said that the reason he got elected in the first place wasn't because of any love towards libertarian ideas, but because he, at the time, represented "the craziest son of a bitch in the race". And funny how you ignore Ron Wyden, who has been just as consistent as Rand Paul when it comes to opposing the surveillance state. Or Cory Booker, who was with Rand Paul from the beginning on criminal justice reform.

[Donald Jay Grump]

NONE of those are libertarians

We've been fiscally conservative and socially liberal for 50 years,

What does a fascist know about liberty? (sneer)

[John]

Democrats are silent about the dreamers because they are lying when they claim to care about them. The Democrats only care about the dreamers in so far as they can be used as a political weapon against the Republicans. Granting them a path to citizenship renders them no longer useful to the Democrats. Thus the Democrats have no interest in actually doing that.

[DajjaI]

The purpose of the wall isn't to build it but to not build it. Why? So they can round up the Bad Hombres and detain them indefinitely and say, "We can't send them back, the wall isn't built yet you idiot." This is why they are silent about the Dreamers - because it puts them in the impossible situation of having to sell out their uncles. They rightly refuse and I think that's great. Dems should hold out on this. They will win. (As for the "Bad Hombres" - we are already here.) #andisaidnottodaymofo

[damikesc]

How will they "win" on this?

A shutdown that doesn't impact a fucking person besides the quite loathed bureaucracy?

Oh dear, DC and Northern VA might suffer some discomfort. My heart bleeds.

[John]

I think Trump can and will wait them out. Why should he fold? Holding firm is not going to cost him a single vote.

[damikesc]

Indeed. He might lose DC. That'd be a shocker.

All he has to do is say "It's shutdown over five billion dollars to start a wall they've claimed to support for years".

Illegal immigration is still not heavily supported. It is not going to be.

Him caving hurts him dramatically more than standing firm. Caving would HELP most Dems as, well, you aren't going to win carrying only NY and CA.

[Donald Jay Grump]

It's over losers,

Nearly 60% of Americans now want Trump impeached or censured.

[Dillinger]

>>>can't credibly blame Democrats

blame? parades and fanfare. government "shutdowns" should be cheered.

[Aloysious]

It is indeed a mystery. Stated preferences vs. revealed preferences, perhaps?

[smalleyd]

So, the House passed a bill with Wall funding and Trump is willing to sign it. The only thing holding that up are the Democrats in the Senate so it must be Trump's fault. Shikha is really on her game today.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Watching the goobers change their tune in a few weeks, after the House and Senate pass wall-less spending bills, will be entertaining.

[John Galt Jr]

Shikha is really on her game today.

Have you been following any of this?
They need 60 votes in the Senate,

[Trigger Warning]

Don't misunderstand. Shikha's game is to troll for clicks.

[John Galt Jr]

DIVERSION
Have you been following any of this?
They need 60 votes in the Senate.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano can't resist using his sockpuppets.

[John Galt Jr]

It was Trump who negotiated the deal for a $25 million wall in exchange for Dreamers.
It was Trump who broke his own deal, by unilaterally demanding more. Likely pressured by his puppet masters, Hannity, Colter, Ingraham and Limbaugh. The Art of the Squeal. And why NOBODY trusts Trump.

The great deal-maker had deal for a $25 million wall, and blew another one!
BREAKING: Top pollster finds near majority of Americans want Trump impeached of censured.

Poll taken before Trump lied so massively to our frontline troops about their pay. SHAME ON HIM FOR FUCKING OUR TROOPS.

We see the GOP in total collapse -- blaming Pelosi for the shutdown Trump said he would own.
Sure enough, most Americans are not as easily flim-flammed as Trumpsters, and blame TRUMP.

Sing along: "The party's over, It's time to call it a day ..."

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Dumbfuck Hihnsano having another bitchfit meltdown. He'll be putting my name up on his Enemies List for the third time soon.

[Jerry B.]

You can tell how important an article is for liberals to end discussion on by the nomber of hihnbot and Kirkland deflection posts there are in the comments.

[ChuckNorrisBeardFist]

Why does Shikra still write here? No-one reads her columns. People just come for the comments.
Who does she have dirt on?

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